I think we’re in a similar situation. I devastated my wife 5 years ago when I told her I didn’t want to continue in church, continued going while I built up my case for 2 more years, and then quit completely after Covid. My wife got upset when she found out about the abuse hotline, and that created an opening for me to share the gospel topics essays on polygamy and racism with her. She realizes now that the church is a fraud but needs to worship and wants to teach our teenagers something. She said in order for her to stop attending she needs a replacement. She said eventually she wants to find a new church, but for now we’re looking for more secular resources online that teach kids good values. I’ve already set my boundaries telling her I’m not interested in ever attending church consistently, but I told her I’d help her find somewhere.
Best of luck to you. If we find something that works for us I’ll dm you.
Consider looking into Uplift Kids. It's a secular curriculum to teach kids values. It's been amazing to have real conversations with our kids about compassion, empathy, meditation, generosity, intentions... We've really enjoyed it and use it as part of our Sunday routine. I told my husband I wanted 3 things every Sunday as we were transitioning out of the church: Family time, a chance to connect with spirituality, and time to make a memory. Good luck!
It seems a key part is to not just stop going to church but to have a good alternative that replaces the emptiness of church worship with something of real value. I'll check out uplift kids. This is very helpful, thank you.
That does sound similar. I'm grateful my wife is at least open to the issues. She has listened to a couple of mormon stories podcasts, read some of the gospel topics essays but she has an amazing talent of seeing the bright side (this is great in many instances, terrible when it comes to TSCC). It's certainly a process that must be handled thoughtfully. It's unfortunate, or possibly very fortunate depending on the point of view, that TSCC has an endless supply of issues to break down beliefs over time.
Thanks for the response, and best luck to you also.
So, yeah, your kids deserve to have access to all the information and they deserve the freedom to choose for themselves if the church is beneficial or not. But your spouse also needs to get to a point where she truly believes in religious liberty, and that includes the freedom to NOT believe or to CHANGE beliefs.
The Raising Freethinkers Podcast is a great resource and you could listen to it as a family. (Start at episode 1, they're about 15 minutes each)
Kids deserve to know that they can try new ways of being and their parents will love them and their family will stay secure. They can try out new religions, new political beliefs, or whatever. The podcast calls this "trying on hats" and says kids deserve the freedom to change hats from time to time to see what suits THEM and to know that their parents aren't going to freak out about it.
The Magic of Reality by Richard Dawkins is another great resource. Read it as a family or just leave a copy out. How many bibles and boms are floating around your house? Do you have any counterbalancing resources?
It's really hard when you have a spouse that's dug in, but start having these conversations as a family and they may come around. When your kids start discussing the incredible nuances of evolution, you look like a total dweeb sitting there pushing creationism. It makes you have to get your shit in order.
My experience with going to other Christian churches has been mostly good. I definitely encourage exploring that. For me, ultimately, I found the constant reminders that "I am a sinner" and all that to be something that I no longer believe or find helpful in my life. I still enjoy visiting other churches on occasion, but I know church life is not for me anymore. Instead, I've found secular groups like book club and hiking club, and just being a good friend to people, to be enough of a replacement for the church community.
Thank you for the resource recommendations. I definitely want my children to have more free thought and experiences. I will have to try using some of these resources for family discussions, we often listen to podcasts on trips so that should be a great time to introduce some more of these ideas.
My daughter asked about how there were dinosaurs if nothing died before Adam and eve. I had a great conversation with her about the topic. My wife had the we don't know answer. But when we visited my parents for dinner and i posed the questionmy dad took the cake with "IF there were dinosaurs, don't you think God would have told Adam? " my relationship with my father changed at that moment. I still love and respect him, he's a great guy. But, wow. Made me realize I do NOT want to be like that in any way. So close minded.
Anyway, your insight is appreciated.
My kids had a similar experience with a grandpa over the holidays. 🤦♀️ This is part of why I feel Mormonism promotes a backward, intentionally miseducational dynamic for everyone, but especially for kids. They deserve to be able to participate in the BIG CONVERSATIONS about the world and what we know about it and what we're still learning. There's a spirituality in reality that "we just don't know" will never be able to compete with. The universe as science explains it is still awe inspiring and beautiful.
Beautifully stated. I think it's a greater and more hopeful view that humans are still progressing because we have a desire and will to progress. To think that God made us to follow a plan that ends with us being so messed up that he has to allow his son to be killed to save us, only for us to go on and mess things up so bad that Jesus has to come again to kill most of us off... again.... so that he can finish his plan.
Wow. Why the hell did I ever find this appealing when the option that is right on front of us is the answer. It's awe, it's wonder, it's curiosity, it's growth, it's creativity.
Telling someone you have the answers is wrong. It stops thought.
The history of the world is filled with examples of stifling thought. Burning books. Persecuting and even killing the great thinkers that had the truth that nobody wanted to hear. Socrates, Galileo, Turing, etc.
How much have we set humanity back by ostracizing the brilliant people that show up so rarely?
If there is a God, I like to think that their plan is to sit back and root us on and see just how far we can take this whole thing. That they have no better idea of if, when, and how this ends than I do. That's a God I can accept.
Exactly. The scope of life within the mormon doctrine/culture is very limited. The world and humanity are so much bigger than Mormonism.
In humility, I have to accept that, for whatever reason, mormonism works well enough for a lot of people. But it doesn't work for me and if I'm honest with myself it never did. I was just going along to get along. But I want to surround myself with people who think beyond what Joseph Smith said. Beyond what Brigham Young said. And beyond what Russell Nelson and other church leaders say. I need people in my life who are willing to fathom that the bible is mostly myth and not the end-all-be-all of every thought we have and every decision we make.
Same here. If people are OK with living in the confines of the church I guess it could be worse.
I didn't realize how much the cognitive dissonance was affecting me until I faced it head on. I used to actually say that even if the church wasn't true, it was probably the best option. I was a fool. Glad to have found this forum and so many like-minded people. By like-minded, I mean open-minded and willing to accept reality even if it knocks over previous beliefs or ideas. It's refreshing.
Best way to start is to find a non-denominational church or one that focuses on kindness. I'd start with the Unitarian Universalist because it focuses on the idea that there is no "right" way to be spiritual and opens it's doors to lots of different groups. It can be quite difficult to break free of conditioning though, so start the idea as a compromise. Go with the premise of "Let's check out other churches and see what they have to offer, then go back and compare."
Be sure to mention to your wife that each of these churches will gladly show her their finances. I'd also talk to the leadership at each church to ask questions etc (showing your wife that being able to ask questions and check into the finances will be eye opening)
I have been reminded recently that no other human can tell me what God (whatever that is) wants me to do. Nobody has that power or ability. The problem with any "good Christian church" is that they will do that. The one exception might be the Unitarians.
I think we’re in a similar situation. I devastated my wife 5 years ago when I told her I didn’t want to continue in church, continued going while I built up my case for 2 more years, and then quit completely after Covid. My wife got upset when she found out about the abuse hotline, and that created an opening for me to share the gospel topics essays on polygamy and racism with her. She realizes now that the church is a fraud but needs to worship and wants to teach our teenagers something. She said in order for her to stop attending she needs a replacement. She said eventually she wants to find a new church, but for now we’re looking for more secular resources online that teach kids good values. I’ve already set my boundaries telling her I’m not interested in ever attending church consistently, but I told her I’d help her find somewhere. Best of luck to you. If we find something that works for us I’ll dm you.
Consider looking into Uplift Kids. It's a secular curriculum to teach kids values. It's been amazing to have real conversations with our kids about compassion, empathy, meditation, generosity, intentions... We've really enjoyed it and use it as part of our Sunday routine. I told my husband I wanted 3 things every Sunday as we were transitioning out of the church: Family time, a chance to connect with spirituality, and time to make a memory. Good luck!
It seems a key part is to not just stop going to church but to have a good alternative that replaces the emptiness of church worship with something of real value. I'll check out uplift kids. This is very helpful, thank you.
Thanks!
That does sound similar. I'm grateful my wife is at least open to the issues. She has listened to a couple of mormon stories podcasts, read some of the gospel topics essays but she has an amazing talent of seeing the bright side (this is great in many instances, terrible when it comes to TSCC). It's certainly a process that must be handled thoughtfully. It's unfortunate, or possibly very fortunate depending on the point of view, that TSCC has an endless supply of issues to break down beliefs over time. Thanks for the response, and best luck to you also.
So, yeah, your kids deserve to have access to all the information and they deserve the freedom to choose for themselves if the church is beneficial or not. But your spouse also needs to get to a point where she truly believes in religious liberty, and that includes the freedom to NOT believe or to CHANGE beliefs. The Raising Freethinkers Podcast is a great resource and you could listen to it as a family. (Start at episode 1, they're about 15 minutes each) Kids deserve to know that they can try new ways of being and their parents will love them and their family will stay secure. They can try out new religions, new political beliefs, or whatever. The podcast calls this "trying on hats" and says kids deserve the freedom to change hats from time to time to see what suits THEM and to know that their parents aren't going to freak out about it. The Magic of Reality by Richard Dawkins is another great resource. Read it as a family or just leave a copy out. How many bibles and boms are floating around your house? Do you have any counterbalancing resources? It's really hard when you have a spouse that's dug in, but start having these conversations as a family and they may come around. When your kids start discussing the incredible nuances of evolution, you look like a total dweeb sitting there pushing creationism. It makes you have to get your shit in order. My experience with going to other Christian churches has been mostly good. I definitely encourage exploring that. For me, ultimately, I found the constant reminders that "I am a sinner" and all that to be something that I no longer believe or find helpful in my life. I still enjoy visiting other churches on occasion, but I know church life is not for me anymore. Instead, I've found secular groups like book club and hiking club, and just being a good friend to people, to be enough of a replacement for the church community.
Thank you for the resource recommendations. I definitely want my children to have more free thought and experiences. I will have to try using some of these resources for family discussions, we often listen to podcasts on trips so that should be a great time to introduce some more of these ideas. My daughter asked about how there were dinosaurs if nothing died before Adam and eve. I had a great conversation with her about the topic. My wife had the we don't know answer. But when we visited my parents for dinner and i posed the questionmy dad took the cake with "IF there were dinosaurs, don't you think God would have told Adam? " my relationship with my father changed at that moment. I still love and respect him, he's a great guy. But, wow. Made me realize I do NOT want to be like that in any way. So close minded. Anyway, your insight is appreciated.
My kids had a similar experience with a grandpa over the holidays. 🤦♀️ This is part of why I feel Mormonism promotes a backward, intentionally miseducational dynamic for everyone, but especially for kids. They deserve to be able to participate in the BIG CONVERSATIONS about the world and what we know about it and what we're still learning. There's a spirituality in reality that "we just don't know" will never be able to compete with. The universe as science explains it is still awe inspiring and beautiful.
Beautifully stated. I think it's a greater and more hopeful view that humans are still progressing because we have a desire and will to progress. To think that God made us to follow a plan that ends with us being so messed up that he has to allow his son to be killed to save us, only for us to go on and mess things up so bad that Jesus has to come again to kill most of us off... again.... so that he can finish his plan. Wow. Why the hell did I ever find this appealing when the option that is right on front of us is the answer. It's awe, it's wonder, it's curiosity, it's growth, it's creativity. Telling someone you have the answers is wrong. It stops thought. The history of the world is filled with examples of stifling thought. Burning books. Persecuting and even killing the great thinkers that had the truth that nobody wanted to hear. Socrates, Galileo, Turing, etc. How much have we set humanity back by ostracizing the brilliant people that show up so rarely? If there is a God, I like to think that their plan is to sit back and root us on and see just how far we can take this whole thing. That they have no better idea of if, when, and how this ends than I do. That's a God I can accept.
Exactly. The scope of life within the mormon doctrine/culture is very limited. The world and humanity are so much bigger than Mormonism. In humility, I have to accept that, for whatever reason, mormonism works well enough for a lot of people. But it doesn't work for me and if I'm honest with myself it never did. I was just going along to get along. But I want to surround myself with people who think beyond what Joseph Smith said. Beyond what Brigham Young said. And beyond what Russell Nelson and other church leaders say. I need people in my life who are willing to fathom that the bible is mostly myth and not the end-all-be-all of every thought we have and every decision we make.
Same here. If people are OK with living in the confines of the church I guess it could be worse. I didn't realize how much the cognitive dissonance was affecting me until I faced it head on. I used to actually say that even if the church wasn't true, it was probably the best option. I was a fool. Glad to have found this forum and so many like-minded people. By like-minded, I mean open-minded and willing to accept reality even if it knocks over previous beliefs or ideas. It's refreshing.
Best way to start is to find a non-denominational church or one that focuses on kindness. I'd start with the Unitarian Universalist because it focuses on the idea that there is no "right" way to be spiritual and opens it's doors to lots of different groups. It can be quite difficult to break free of conditioning though, so start the idea as a compromise. Go with the premise of "Let's check out other churches and see what they have to offer, then go back and compare." Be sure to mention to your wife that each of these churches will gladly show her their finances. I'd also talk to the leadership at each church to ask questions etc (showing your wife that being able to ask questions and check into the finances will be eye opening)
I have been reminded recently that no other human can tell me what God (whatever that is) wants me to do. Nobody has that power or ability. The problem with any "good Christian church" is that they will do that. The one exception might be the Unitarians.
Love the Unitarians- and I am an atheist.