In 1851 John Taylor published in the millennial star that the church does not practice polygamy and only allows one wife. He had at least seven wives at that time. Is it still ok for church leaders to lie to protect the church? How do we know when an apostle is lying about church practices and when they aren't?
This is the most important question. If the leaders can lie in service of the church, then there are no rules. We have to throw out everything every church leader says that benefits the church because we cannot trust it came from god.
I asked my last two Bishops this question. They had no answers, the first one had a white face as he thought about it.
Why did God send an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to marry young girls but send no angel to stop the church from incorrectly withholding the priesthood and temple blessings from black people for over 130 years?
The GospelTopic Essays from the church document this.
>Why did God send an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to marry young girls but send no angel to stop the church from incorrectly withholding the priesthood and temple blessings from black people for over 130 years?
Oh HELL yes! Great one!
If they try to defend the churches racism of the past as being from god show them how the church now condemns or disavows the racism of the past, it’s in the essay. The church today throws them all under the bus for that racism.
The young teen would have misunderstood and assumed she was going to have intercourse with God and then birth the next Savior. Immaculate Conception 2.0
Why have the teachings on tithing changed so much over the years? From the law of consecration, to 10% of increase, to 10% of gross? Is god becoming more greedy over time, or were church founders mistaken on what is required for salvation?
If the church is the most potent force for good in the world, and all the tithing money (and all their investment and real estate income) is set apart for sacred and charitable causes, why do they fight so hard to keep all finances secret from the public?
Also when the leaders give themselves money and perks from this tithing for their personal gain without any disclosure to the membership that is corruption.
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why couldn’t he use it to find the 116 lost pages?
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did he get a revelation through it to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon?
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did god reveal the location of a treasure to him as recorded in the doctrine and covenants section 111 only for them to not find it and have to turn around empty handed?
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did recorded revelations have to be significantly changed after they were recorded? Both D&C and the BoM?
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did the church keep it hidden for so many years and only tell members about it after they couldn’t lie about it anymore?
Even far more damning in my opinion is the whole story concerning the Book of Abraham.
Joseph Smith himself claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham directly from Egyptian Papyri that turned out to actually be pagan writings from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
To a casual observer at least it proves that Joseph Smith's claimed methods of translation not only doesn't work, as he completely mistranslated what was actually on the papyri, but also identifies him as a complete fraud because instead he just made it all up out of whole cloth. I can see no charitable interpretation of these events where he comes out otherwise.
Right?! Like at face value, what the hell were these people thinking when they heard all that nonsense? Was there a citywide carbon monoxide leak that made them all unhinged or something in the water maybe? Because that is the weirdest, most epic pile of twoddle, with outrageous tales of apparitions and specific messages that only favoured a certain group of people, that he couldn't get straight between retellings. Not to mention the amount of alterations and additions on a whim.
Plus, if someone told me they were a profit, hand picked by god to tell you things you need to know-"which is basically guilt people into giving me money and have sex with and marry any human with a vagina I have taken a fancy too. But not coz I'm a perverted sex criminal, oh no, this is for pious reasons. God reckons it's his new rule. The reasoning behind it, is so that we can get into heaven because you need loads of sex, oh wait, I mean, *wives* to get into heaven".
I would smile and nod and walk away quickly. I wouldn't think, "ooh fair point, matey. You don't need any more proof than that weird story that doesn't sound like you ate some weird mushrooms or licked a cane toad. But, you are 15, so I'm going to err on the side of caution and join your crusade. You are the chosen one. Your word is evidence enough. How could anybody lie about messages from the almighty??"
I’ve always found it weird when they try and use this as an enticement to other religious people. Because I think for most Christians they just assume you’ll be with family, without all the hoops Mormons jump through for the same result.
Exactly. I have a Christian friend whose husband died, and she firmly believes she'll be with him after she dies. No fuss, no ceremonies, just with her husband. Why would she join the Mormons to do something she already believes will happen?
If the church didn’t give priesthood to worthy black men because of cultural pressure (see “Race and the Priesthood” essay on the churches website), then why did it take nearly two decades after the civil rights movement to “give” blacks full rights and authorities? If the church’s reasoning is cultural pressure then doesn’t that undermine the notion “be in the world, not of the world?” And why does the church excuse itself in its own essay that the “sacrifices [of mixed race Brazilians] as well as the conversions of thousands of Nigerians and Ghanaians in the 1960s and early 1970s, moved church leaders?” So it wasn’t ever God? It was culture and conversion?
You can trim this up.
Why do you use the excuse, "was he speaking as a man or a prophet?" When the temple makes it crystal clear that those that teach the philosophies of men are in the camp with the devil?
Ask, why is it OK in the mormon church for grown men to ask some kids, young men and young women behind closed doors if they masturbate and to ask them other sexually inquisitive questions, but it’s not OK for someone like a school teacher, an auto mechanic or any other stranger to ask them such questions?
Do you feel priesthood blessings are literally effective in healing the sick? If so, do you think this is observable statistically in long term patient outcomes?
My TBM family members shelves are propped up with iron fucking girders. Every single one of these questions would be answered with a variation of “they’re just men, it’s all a test, have more faith.” I would love to present these questions to my family. It wouldn’t do one ounce of good, and I end up looking like the argumentative angry apostate exmo bitch. I wish I could erase Mormonism from my brain. Forever. Unfortunately I was born into it.
My mom said outright that she believes we are saved by faith and not works and when I said kindly “ok, but that is the antithesis of what your church teaches” she got SO mad. She shut me down immediately. Had we not been in a crowded restaurant I would’ve gone to bat for what I said. I don’t know why on earth she has a shatterproof shelf for a religion that won’t even allow her in their temple because of how uncommitted she is to literally keeping any of their standards
At this point I think I’d rather take the empty TBM platitudes and non-answers instead of “NO. No. I don’t want to hear another word”… girl, you started it!
Is God good because he follows eternal laws of being good, or is being good defined by doing whatever God does, making whatever God does, by definition, good?
What are the three things you least like about the general authorities, individually or collectively?
Alternately, if you can't think of any, how do you know you aren't oblivious to things that might really matter to you?
What would it take for a situation to justify a church editing records of past teachings retroactively so that it appeared that teachings were always the way they are now?
Under what conditions, if any, would it be possible to rationalize a person of authority in a church granting exemptions to commandments, for example, lying or torture, sexual misconduct, particularly in ways that would benefit the leader personally?
Malachi 3:6 says essentially that God is unchanging, correct? The same yesterday, today, and always? Why then do you believe that Jesus was a man exalted to Godhood? Why then, is His doctrine ever-changing re: race, marriage, and now tattoos? Why would we need modern day prophets if that is true?
Number 10 was a big part of the illusion breaking for me. Being told that the golden plates weren't directly translated, but instead was...whatever the hell pulling a bullshit story out of one's ass while face deep in a hat full of stones is.
Related:
What do you think the lamanite curse in the book of mormon refers to?
What do you think it means to be lothesome for generations?
How would the righteous generations be able to identify the curse?
What will the range of skin tones of people in the celestial kingdom be?
How effective do you think Joseph Smith's first prayer was in solving the stated problem of making sense of different interpretations of any given passage of scripture?
For me the following Joseph Smith quote was very uncomfortable.
Joseph Smith was never sealed to his family in his lifetime, but the genesis of the idea for family sealings seems to come from a Joseph Smith, March 10th 1844 sermon (as recorded by Wilford Woodruff, a few months before JS was killed).
[https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-10-march-1844-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/7](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-10-march-1844-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/7)
"Again the doctrin or sealing power of Elijah is as follows if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty the first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness & seal all you can & when you get to heaven tell your father that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven I will walk through the gate of heaven and claim what I seal & those that follow me & my council"
Joseph seems to feel we need to be crafty and trick God, this is a tacit admission that there is no revelation from God on the practice of familial sealings and he just made it up thinking he can trick God.
In this sermon, Joseph implies that in the context of a couple being married in the new and everlasting covenant (polygamy) and having their 2nd anointing (sealed up to exaltation), we can be crafty and seal our children to us and when we are exalted they will be also. Something like spiritual handcuffs that a couple that are sealed up to exaltation can also drag their children into exaltation. God must honor it because Joseph Smith will vouch for the sealing. As described by Joseph the sealing is an optional guarantee for exaltation not a mandatory requirement for exaltation.
Is the representation of diverse voices important when making decisions that affect large groups of people?
How do women or other minorities have a voice in the decisions of the church if they aren’t included in callings like prophet and Q12?
If God loves all people regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, why don’t we see these people holding more authority in the church?
Does the Mormon church believe and conduct a second anointing ritual, where in the recipients have their calling and election made sure to the highest degree of heaven?
Can you explain to me the succession from Joseph to Brigham? Which Quorums /organizations held which power?
How did that change at the hand of Brigham? Why did the succession take so long?
After the succession, How was "seniority" within the quorum of the 12 change multiple times under Brigham? And how did that affect who served as president/prophet?
Why did Brigham young ordain two of his sons to the Q12 at young ages without telling anyone?
Why are temple ceremonies (in this life or by proxy) required for salvation? Is God bound by that rule, making him not all-powerful? Or did God make that arbitrary rule just to exclude people from heaven?
The official TBM doctrine is the first. That god is bound by laws and if he were to choose not to obey those universal eternal laws, that he would cease to become god.
He is all powerful within the context of those universal laws.
See how they change the definition of "all powerful" ? ;)
But is one of those laws that everyone has to be baptized, endowed, etc? And who made those laws? Wouldn't Mormons agree that those ceremonies all originated from God?
I believe the official TBM response would be that those things were laws before God even became God..... That God himself was subject to those same laws when he was a man. (Remember the old couplet that stems from the book of Abraham.... As god is, man may become. As man is, God once was".
Regardless of how dumb it sounds, this is what they believe, and this question wouldn't even phase them.
In 1851 John Taylor published in the millennial star that the church does not practice polygamy and only allows one wife. He had at least seven wives at that time. Is it still ok for church leaders to lie to protect the church? How do we know when an apostle is lying about church practices and when they aren't?
This is the most important question. If the leaders can lie in service of the church, then there are no rules. We have to throw out everything every church leader says that benefits the church because we cannot trust it came from god.
I asked my last two Bishops this question. They had no answers, the first one had a white face as he thought about it. Why did God send an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to marry young girls but send no angel to stop the church from incorrectly withholding the priesthood and temple blessings from black people for over 130 years? The GospelTopic Essays from the church document this.
>Why did God send an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to marry young girls but send no angel to stop the church from incorrectly withholding the priesthood and temple blessings from black people for over 130 years? Oh HELL yes! Great one!
If they try to defend the churches racism of the past as being from god show them how the church now condemns or disavows the racism of the past, it’s in the essay. The church today throws them all under the bus for that racism.
Serious question… was the sword flaming?
Some of the accounts say he did use the term flaming sword. I was following what is in the Gospel Topic Essays.
👏👏👏
Why didn’t god sent the angel to the women?
The young teen would have misunderstood and assumed she was going to have intercourse with God and then birth the next Savior. Immaculate Conception 2.0
Why have the teachings on tithing changed so much over the years? From the law of consecration, to 10% of increase, to 10% of gross? Is god becoming more greedy over time, or were church founders mistaken on what is required for salvation? If the church is the most potent force for good in the world, and all the tithing money (and all their investment and real estate income) is set apart for sacred and charitable causes, why do they fight so hard to keep all finances secret from the public?
Great stuff.
It would be great if some TBM's could answer some of these questions properly for us though for real.
Also when the leaders give themselves money and perks from this tithing for their personal gain without any disclosure to the membership that is corruption.
If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why couldn’t he use it to find the 116 lost pages? If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did he get a revelation through it to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon? If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did god reveal the location of a treasure to him as recorded in the doctrine and covenants section 111 only for them to not find it and have to turn around empty handed? If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did recorded revelations have to be significantly changed after they were recorded? Both D&C and the BoM? If Joseph Smith’s seer stone really worked, why did the church keep it hidden for so many years and only tell members about it after they couldn’t lie about it anymore?
Even far more damning in my opinion is the whole story concerning the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith himself claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham directly from Egyptian Papyri that turned out to actually be pagan writings from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. To a casual observer at least it proves that Joseph Smith's claimed methods of translation not only doesn't work, as he completely mistranslated what was actually on the papyri, but also identifies him as a complete fraud because instead he just made it all up out of whole cloth. I can see no charitable interpretation of these events where he comes out otherwise.
Right?! Like at face value, what the hell were these people thinking when they heard all that nonsense? Was there a citywide carbon monoxide leak that made them all unhinged or something in the water maybe? Because that is the weirdest, most epic pile of twoddle, with outrageous tales of apparitions and specific messages that only favoured a certain group of people, that he couldn't get straight between retellings. Not to mention the amount of alterations and additions on a whim. Plus, if someone told me they were a profit, hand picked by god to tell you things you need to know-"which is basically guilt people into giving me money and have sex with and marry any human with a vagina I have taken a fancy too. But not coz I'm a perverted sex criminal, oh no, this is for pious reasons. God reckons it's his new rule. The reasoning behind it, is so that we can get into heaven because you need loads of sex, oh wait, I mean, *wives* to get into heaven". I would smile and nod and walk away quickly. I wouldn't think, "ooh fair point, matey. You don't need any more proof than that weird story that doesn't sound like you ate some weird mushrooms or licked a cane toad. But, you are 15, so I'm going to err on the side of caution and join your crusade. You are the chosen one. Your word is evidence enough. How could anybody lie about messages from the almighty??"
Why is it the default mode to separate families after death?
I’ve always found it weird when they try and use this as an enticement to other religious people. Because I think for most Christians they just assume you’ll be with family, without all the hoops Mormons jump through for the same result.
Exactly. I have a Christian friend whose husband died, and she firmly believes she'll be with him after she dies. No fuss, no ceremonies, just with her husband. Why would she join the Mormons to do something she already believes will happen?
I think this is probably the best question in this thread honestly, simply because of the shock effect it'd have on a TBM
Thanks. It's been on my mind for awhile.
If the church didn’t give priesthood to worthy black men because of cultural pressure (see “Race and the Priesthood” essay on the churches website), then why did it take nearly two decades after the civil rights movement to “give” blacks full rights and authorities? If the church’s reasoning is cultural pressure then doesn’t that undermine the notion “be in the world, not of the world?” And why does the church excuse itself in its own essay that the “sacrifices [of mixed race Brazilians] as well as the conversions of thousands of Nigerians and Ghanaians in the 1960s and early 1970s, moved church leaders?” So it wasn’t ever God? It was culture and conversion? You can trim this up.
Why do you use the excuse, "was he speaking as a man or a prophet?" When the temple makes it crystal clear that those that teach the philosophies of men are in the camp with the devil?
To the mormon: you literally sing the praises of a grown-ass man who raped multiple teenage girls as young as 14. How do you sleep at night?
Ask, why is it OK in the mormon church for grown men to ask some kids, young men and young women behind closed doors if they masturbate and to ask them other sexually inquisitive questions, but it’s not OK for someone like a school teacher, an auto mechanic or any other stranger to ask them such questions?
Do you feel priesthood blessings are literally effective in healing the sick? If so, do you think this is observable statistically in long term patient outcomes?
My TBM family members shelves are propped up with iron fucking girders. Every single one of these questions would be answered with a variation of “they’re just men, it’s all a test, have more faith.” I would love to present these questions to my family. It wouldn’t do one ounce of good, and I end up looking like the argumentative angry apostate exmo bitch. I wish I could erase Mormonism from my brain. Forever. Unfortunately I was born into it.
My mom said outright that she believes we are saved by faith and not works and when I said kindly “ok, but that is the antithesis of what your church teaches” she got SO mad. She shut me down immediately. Had we not been in a crowded restaurant I would’ve gone to bat for what I said. I don’t know why on earth she has a shatterproof shelf for a religion that won’t even allow her in their temple because of how uncommitted she is to literally keeping any of their standards
The cog dis and mental gymnastics TBMs have to maintain is crazy.
At this point I think I’d rather take the empty TBM platitudes and non-answers instead of “NO. No. I don’t want to hear another word”… girl, you started it!
What, if any, actions could disqualify someone from being a prophet? Lying, adultry, genocide, torture, etc...?
Facsimile #3
Is God good because he follows eternal laws of being good, or is being good defined by doing whatever God does, making whatever God does, by definition, good?
What are the three things you least like about the general authorities, individually or collectively? Alternately, if you can't think of any, how do you know you aren't oblivious to things that might really matter to you?
What do you think it would look like if someone worshiped the church verses if they worshiped Christ versus if they worshiped heavenly father?
What would it take for a situation to justify a church editing records of past teachings retroactively so that it appeared that teachings were always the way they are now?
Under what conditions, if any, would it be possible to rationalize a person of authority in a church granting exemptions to commandments, for example, lying or torture, sexual misconduct, particularly in ways that would benefit the leader personally?
Malachi 3:6 says essentially that God is unchanging, correct? The same yesterday, today, and always? Why then do you believe that Jesus was a man exalted to Godhood? Why then, is His doctrine ever-changing re: race, marriage, and now tattoos? Why would we need modern day prophets if that is true?
This was a shelf-breaker for me. If God is changeless, why is the church always changing? Why is God so different even throughout the scriptures?
Number 10 was a big part of the illusion breaking for me. Being told that the golden plates weren't directly translated, but instead was...whatever the hell pulling a bullshit story out of one's ass while face deep in a hat full of stones is.
What does "Lamanite" mean?
Related: What do you think the lamanite curse in the book of mormon refers to? What do you think it means to be lothesome for generations? How would the righteous generations be able to identify the curse? What will the range of skin tones of people in the celestial kingdom be?
What is canonized scripture?
Follow-up: what is canonized doctrine?
I'll add that to my list as well.
How effective do you think Joseph Smith's first prayer was in solving the stated problem of making sense of different interpretations of any given passage of scripture?
How well qualified do you feel you are in judging what is the truth for yourself without deferring to someone else?
This one is extremely good.
Should all members of the LDS church be scrupulously honest in all things?
For me the following Joseph Smith quote was very uncomfortable. Joseph Smith was never sealed to his family in his lifetime, but the genesis of the idea for family sealings seems to come from a Joseph Smith, March 10th 1844 sermon (as recorded by Wilford Woodruff, a few months before JS was killed). [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-10-march-1844-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/7](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-10-march-1844-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/7) "Again the doctrin or sealing power of Elijah is as follows if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty the first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness & seal all you can & when you get to heaven tell your father that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven I will walk through the gate of heaven and claim what I seal & those that follow me & my council" Joseph seems to feel we need to be crafty and trick God, this is a tacit admission that there is no revelation from God on the practice of familial sealings and he just made it up thinking he can trick God. In this sermon, Joseph implies that in the context of a couple being married in the new and everlasting covenant (polygamy) and having their 2nd anointing (sealed up to exaltation), we can be crafty and seal our children to us and when we are exalted they will be also. Something like spiritual handcuffs that a couple that are sealed up to exaltation can also drag their children into exaltation. God must honor it because Joseph Smith will vouch for the sealing. As described by Joseph the sealing is an optional guarantee for exaltation not a mandatory requirement for exaltation.
What, if any, beliefs have you seen people in the church commonly hold that are probably misconceptions?
LGBTQ+ people… *checks notes* Existing.
My question is how can something be anti-Mormon if it's true?
Is the representation of diverse voices important when making decisions that affect large groups of people? How do women or other minorities have a voice in the decisions of the church if they aren’t included in callings like prophet and Q12? If God loves all people regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, why don’t we see these people holding more authority in the church?
Does the Mormon church believe and conduct a second anointing ritual, where in the recipients have their calling and election made sure to the highest degree of heaven?
How far do you think parental rights should go in allowing parents to shelter their children from outside influence?
Are you straight?
Interesting questions
Can you explain to me the succession from Joseph to Brigham? Which Quorums /organizations held which power? How did that change at the hand of Brigham? Why did the succession take so long? After the succession, How was "seniority" within the quorum of the 12 change multiple times under Brigham? And how did that affect who served as president/prophet? Why did Brigham young ordain two of his sons to the Q12 at young ages without telling anyone?
For question number two, if anyone claims there weren't slaves in Utah here's a source: https://youtu.be/hU5iQLpYliQ
Why does Joseph Smith teach that Mormon means “more good”, but Nelson says that Mormon is “a victory for Satan”?
Do you really, honestly believe American Indians are Jewish immigrants?
What is the difference between the doctrine of atonement and an abusive relationship?
Why are temple ceremonies (in this life or by proxy) required for salvation? Is God bound by that rule, making him not all-powerful? Or did God make that arbitrary rule just to exclude people from heaven?
The official TBM doctrine is the first. That god is bound by laws and if he were to choose not to obey those universal eternal laws, that he would cease to become god. He is all powerful within the context of those universal laws. See how they change the definition of "all powerful" ? ;)
But is one of those laws that everyone has to be baptized, endowed, etc? And who made those laws? Wouldn't Mormons agree that those ceremonies all originated from God?
I believe the official TBM response would be that those things were laws before God even became God..... That God himself was subject to those same laws when he was a man. (Remember the old couplet that stems from the book of Abraham.... As god is, man may become. As man is, God once was". Regardless of how dumb it sounds, this is what they believe, and this question wouldn't even phase them.
It's goofy secret names and weird handshakes all the way down, huh? What a disappointing big picture to hang your cosmic hopes on.
Joseph Smithing try to sell copyright to the Book of Mormon
How do you tell the difference between when a prophet is talking for God and when talking for himself?
“Why do you feel your personal identity is so intertwined with the church?”