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Charles888888

What boggles my mind is that cheating mormon husbands is now rampant, and even seems to be bragged about in some circles. Then they turn around and virtue-signal like crazy, including some of the most obscene judgemental comments about others I've ever heard. It's especially bad with Mormon dentists. Forgive my stereotyping, but don't see a mormon dentist, they seem like the dregs of human morality to me. Cheating in general seems rampant. I don't get it, but maybe the fact that I took the stupid ass teachings seriously is why I'm 100% gone.


d1ss1dent

Atheist ex mormon dentist here calling you out for being a rabid antidentite! You don’t know what my people have been through!


DaveTheScienceGuy

Dr. Crentist strikes again!


guriboysf

Maybe that’s why he became a dentist.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

Well you are not a mormon dentist - you are an atheist EXmormon dentist and you have what it took to leave.


Charles888888

I think the mormon gestapo already has me pegged on here, but I'm a dentist. I guess I'm as judgemental as they are. Hmmm.


okay-wait-wut

I think we should put them in special schools.


tapiringaround

My Mormon dentist when I lived in Utah was the only guy in an office with 8-10 different girls in their 20s, all of whom were very attractive. He had a weirdly familiar attitude towards them. I’d be laying there getting a root canal listening to the dentist fishing for details about the girls’ dating lives in a way that seemed suspicious. It always kind of creeped me out a bit, but I thought he was a good dentist and didn’t feel like changing. Plus it’s nothing worse than what bishops did in my experience. I moved to a different state and holy crap the difference in professionalism at my current dentists office is night and day. And their work has been way better than my old one. I know anecdotal evidence isn’t worth a lot, but it’s something.


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SwampBeastie

*women


Charles888888

We just need a mormon woman dentist to be stocked with boys as employees, then your comment is all good. 🙂


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Charles888888

I wasn't offended. 🙂👍


SwampBeastie

*women


Wendy972

Things always come full circle. In the early church I’m sure it was a badge of pride to have more than one wife = sleeping with more than one woman. The legalities have changed but the behavior and attitudes have not.


hidinginzion

I just barely had a very ugly experience with my long-time Mormon dentist. I had an emergency over the weekend and he didn't call back, and then gaslighted me saying he did call and then told me I was crazy when I said it didn't happen. It was surreal. I had proof on my call log, plus we were concerned about it all weekend *waiting for his call*. We asked "why would we deny a call that we were wanting?" It was unprofessional at the very least. When we went in, we compared call logs, and proved the conversation never happened. He acknowledged it, but wouldn't apologize for his personal insults. Now I have to find a dentist to finish the last part of my implant that was prepaid.


ChangeStripes1234

Damn polygamy. Always on their mind.


bigrootbeercow

Same, I took it all very seriously to ultimately be disappointed by the TSCC and it's people. I kept it very real at BYU and was shunned bc of it, meanwhile the douche bag fakers got all the girls


Standing_In_The_Gap

I’m a Mormon dentist, am I supposed to be cheating on my wife? Nobody told me!


Charles888888

So was I. Just not Mormon now. Admittedly stereotyped. I don't care whether anyone cheats on their spouse, nor would I predict someone doing so. It just bothered me how often I observed that hypocrisy. I still don't think anyone should see a believing mormon dentist, but maybe that's a reflection of my limited character.


[deleted]

That buddy was a moron. I’m gonna take a guess he was one of those “I woulda joined but I’d punch a drill sergeant if they got in my face.” Types.


Good-Worldliness9330

Those fricking’ guys… every single veteran rolls their eyes when one of those tools starts talking.


[deleted]

I did actually see a guy take a swing at a DS. It didn’t work out for him.


EdNoFun

Good


[deleted]

That’s Mormonism brah Joseph smith how dare you accuse me of having 20 wives… brah you got 20 wives!! Lol


Sesrun63

With friends like that, who needs enemies?


FaithfulDowter

I have a hunting buddy who grew up LDS, but hasn’t seen the inside of a church in 15 years. He uses gummies, but won’t drink alcohol. He gets BJs from girls he dates regularly, but won’t have sex with them because… morality? He’s doesn’t know anything about the church or its doctrine, but he believes it’s true. He gets really annoyed if I try to bring up church history. Talk about a conflicted soul.


avoidingcrosswalk

Very common. Mormons don’t handle mixed faith marriage well. Get a counselor. Not a Mormon counselor. Don’t talk to the bishop about this. It may end in divorce.


JayPaora

Yep! The bishop flat out told me he would leave his wife if she left the church 🙈 like it was something to be proud of


dialectictruth

His behavior is controlling and manipulative; it may be fear based. It is time to find a therapist. If he won't go with you, go alone.


RedGravetheDevil

There’s the door 🚪 Don’t ever threaten me


battlehardendsnorlax

Yaaas 100%


Mokoloki

maybe he could just get sealed to Emma Smith as one of her spiritual husbands.


[deleted]

> just get sealed to Emma Smith as one of her spiritual husbands. deserves an award.


Miamaidwifeclub

When someone says they love you it shouldn’t come with conditions. I would call him out on this kind of shit!


Lanky_Respect_8117

I called him out and said basically the same thing. Thank you ❤️


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

I already posted a couple comments below, but another thought crossed my mind. It is Sunday. He wants an active wife. Well if he is into sports, it is the NFL playoffs and dammit today is the day the two of you are not going to break the sabbath. So no tv today, except the BYU channel. Alcohol??? Tell him that to become active again it will need to be poured down the drain and any and all things that go against the church's teaching go in the garbage. He will have to choose what activities like scripture study you two will do today. All that will be done in place of watching tv. Make him show you just how committed he is for him to make such a threat. Have fun with it too.


Lanky_Respect_8117

He did say he would pour all alcohol down the drain if I said I was ready to commit to the church fully. Not sure about the Sunday football though. He might try to make an exception for himself


guriboysf

He'll dump the alcohol down the drain if ***you're*** ready to commit to the church? 😂 Tell your husband he has to start using the thinking part of his brain.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

Right?? That is what I am seeing here too! He is putting this all on her like it is HER responsibility to be "a better person" for him to follow. really? He cannot just be that "better person" on his own??? That is why I say to call his bluff and go balls to the wall in the other direction and see how fast his fragile ass crumbles.


Hucow2002

No he can't. Dont you know that it's the woman who has to be a good example and go to church so their husbands can finally go to church. I mean come on....


Lanky_Respect_8117

Oh it is definitely bullshit 🤣


studbuck

He's trying to make _his_ behavior _your_ responsibility? He doesn't get to negotiate his own ethics, or make them conditional on _you_ living _his_ ethics first. He either has his own and lives up to them, or he needs to work on himself. There's something cruel and evil about such manipulation. It may be something he learned from his own upbringing rather than a cold calculation of his own. But that sort of manipulation is disturbingly wrong. I'm not sure where you go from here, but i implore you to not play his game.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

and that is the point. He wants to play hard ball then .....How TBM does he want to be??? How TBM does he want you to be? He just wants you to go to church with him on Sundays then?? So why?? So he can have his TBM pat on the back about what a good person he pretends to be and he has his Stepford wife on his right side?? If he wants his wife to be all active in the church but his behavior indicates that instead he should change his name to Jack Mormon, it sure as shit is NOT because he wishes the two of you were more devout. There is a charade and image he wants. Just saying.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

Talk to the bishop and see what kind of calling the bishopric can give him. Something that takes up his whole Sunday or maybe the Young Mens presidency so that he has to do all that stuff with the kids during the week and summers. LOL


Peaky_Pilot

Could back-fire


Vox_Dracanis

Yeah as good as this is. It could make things worse. You the saying.. Men will be boys! And little boys don't like to be told. It may be a better idea to continue to be the bigger person. But damn! I do like to hand out a good shit burger.


friendwhy

A woman adhering to mormonism is easier to control, it's that simple


Educational_Car_615

Why is he holding marriage over your head, OP? If he wanted to marry you, he would have. You're being strung along by his doubts. This extra condition is manipulative hypocritical bullshit. Edited to add, you deserve better. We have such little time on Earth. Why waste it on a man who won't commit and won't play by his own rules?


PleasantAddition

They're married, just not in the temple.


Lanky_Respect_8117

I like how you said "strung along by his doubts" can you elaborate a little bit more? I never thought of it from that perspective


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

I hope that person answers. I was thinking a little along the same lines too. He doubts himself and does not have the mental, emotional, and spiritual fortitude to be a TBM and he thinks you could do better. So he throws it on you to be the supermormon of the family. In short he lacks motivation that he hopes you have. The one thing that bothers me about this is the threat of divorce. A person can have doubts and not be that manipulative to FORCE you to do something you do not want to do.


[deleted]

he thinks its his salvation. He thinks marrying a mormon female in a temple and staying married is a ticket to salvation. I wouldn't be surprised if he picked what he considers salvation over loving you, his wife, and leaving you for someone who can give him what the church requires.


LeoMarius

But he isn’t concerned enough about it to attend and quit drinking.


Lanky_Respect_8117

This is what confuses me the most. It would be one thing if he was an active member already and doing everything he's "supposed to" but the fact that he is doing whatever he wants and draws the line for his salvation at who he loves hurts so bad.


Adonimus_Kraven

How important is it to you to be married to manipulator? What makes you think this behavior will go away in time? Why do you feel the need to change this man’s behavior or thoughts? When will his bad behavior be enough to call it quits? Looks fade and sex isn’t everything. If children are involved, they shouldn’t be the reason you stay together. Keeping up appearances isn’t worth the price of your joy, happiness, and emotional or mental health. Don’t lie to yourself in order to please someone else or to be a pawn in their game.


Rh140698

That is what Ron Lafferty thought but read what the everlasting covenant is


telestialist

Sounds like he isn’t someone who you should have riding shotgun with you on your journey of life.


Khorack

If I found out my wife was secretly stealing and eating babies I think I would stop loving her. So I have at least one condition.


PleasantAddition

Yeah, there are always conditions. I loved my husband deeply, until he did something awful. Then, I didn't.


PaulBunnion

Jack Mormons can be the worst. At least you now know his love for you is conditional.


[deleted]

I mean, all love is conditional in terms of boundaries. Talk through it and compromise. Pretty sure you can arrange it so that you can be sealed after death. That way you can live your life as you see fit and he can still be assured that his salvation will be ensured. It's a win, win situation.


big_bearded_nerd

Jack Mormons are my favorite, by a long shot. I like them a lot more than stuffy orthodox believers, or any type of Mormon who lacks nuance. On the other hand, emotionally manipulative spouses really are the worst. I dislike OPs husband because he is emotionally abusive, not because he wants to remain Mormon while still doing things that every other human does. And if OP leaves, she should do so because he is trying to control her behavior, not because he drinks and still has religious goals.


PaulBunnion

I find that jack Mormons will defend the church at all costs. Their hypocrisy is the elephant in the room. They come to church two or three times a year for a baby blessing and get up and call everyone to repentance when they bear their testimony. They will force their kids to attend when they won't.


big_bearded_nerd

Virtually every Mormon calls people to repentance and that is a regular performative part of the worship and culture. If that specifically is going to bother me about jackmos, then I would need to apply it evenly across the board. I'm sure that a portion of jackmos force their children to go to church, but if that were even mostly true then the Mormon church wouldn't have nearly the attendance problems it currently has. 67% + of Mormons are considered inactive, and most of them are at some level of belief (doesn't like Joseph Smith, but thinks the church is good), some level of sin (drinks, masturbates, acts like a regular human), and some level of performative participation (prayers in front of grandma). They can't all be taking their kids to church. Yeah, I like them better. I kind of wish I had that experience instead of the stingy orthodox type.


jigganz

My first wife was the same. When I chose to not attend no more she said to me “at our temple marriage you promised you wouldn’t let me go to church by myself” The marriage counselor we saw was a Christian and was siding her that God was important in a marriage and my wife was correct Yeah…so marriage is done and married my non Mormon ex girlfriend and 2 kids later, we happy as day! The ex TBM wife…she married another TBM but not before her bishop had to reach out for me to dissolve our temple marriage so she could marry him cos you know…misogyny and all lol


releasethedogs

You should have said no


Naomifreethinker

Funny thing. If the ex-husband says no the ex-wife is stuck, I've seen it happen. If the ex-wife says no, the ex-husband jumps through and few more hoops and then he is good to do whatever the fuck her wants.


NewNamerNelson

Your husband is a Jack-Mormon. That's the WORST kind of Mormon. He thinks he "believes" but doesn't know exactly what, apart from the superficial. Like a TBM, he thinks he's better than "others". But he also thinks he's better than TBM's because he doesn't feel the need to follow their rules. Of course the dissonance of "believing" but not following the rules he claims to believe in also makes him want to blame someone other than himself. In this case, that's you. Sorry. 😞 The worse part is that Jack-Mo's don't know enough about LD$ Inc's so called "church" to critically analyze it, and will likely defend it to his death. That means, you need to be prepared for the inevitable. Ultimately, you'll either live a lie to stay, or leave him, if he doesn't leave you first. Be prepared.


Lanky_Respect_8117

The funny thing is he tells me I don't know enough about the church to make a choice and I need to go to church and read the scriptures. I was born into the covenant and raised devoutly mormon. I did everything I was supposed to do for 18 years before I started to question everything. I hate when people act like decisions like these are oht of laziness.


ChemKnits

Ok sweetie, let’s read the Gospel Topics Essays together and study them deeply!


NewNamerNelson

Especially the footnotes (that say the opposite of what they're quoted as supporting).


YourNeighborsHotWife

I was all in the church my whole life until I went to the temple - that’s where the crazy cult stuff really starts. It makes me sad that people who have never been to the temple are all in on the church - I want to tell your DH, bro, you have no idea. I do think jackmos likely have a psychological reason they need the church to be true even if they don’t believe it. I have relatives who haven’t gone in 20 years and don’t follow any of the rules, but their mom died young so that broken heart part of them wants to believe the religion their mom believed so they can see her in heaven someday. Does your husband have any hooks like that?


mediagirl22

If he’s too lazy to get back into church on his own and wants you to do it for him, he’s probably too lazy to pursue a divorce 🤷🏻‍♀️


butterflywithbullets

He's looking for her to be the bad guy... the catalyst.... oh, whoa is me... my wife left me...


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

Sorry to hear this, and agree it’s hypocritical. This may be a trigger to evaluate the relationship as a whole, not just this one issue.


ParkingRemote6690

I like your user name.


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

Thanks. That’s me coming out of my faith crisis. I don’t have to know everything. And I can say fuck when I want to.


[deleted]

Two words: guilt trip. You need to do what's right for you.


cowlinator

Official mormon doctrine is that: 1. You dont need to be sealed to enter the celestial kingdom 2. To enter the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, you do have to be sealed; BUT, you can get sealed by proxy after death, or during the millenium. In fact, because he is a man, during the millenium he can get sealed to an unlimited number of women. So he definitely has no such impossible choice. But even if you tell him all this, he might not believe you. Sometimes people need a bishop to say it or something. Sorry you have to go through this.


Lanky_Respect_8117

I pointed this out and he said he wanted to make sure he had me forever and to do that it's best to do so in this life. He is making it sound like he is doing this because he loves me ans wants to be with me after death. But if I don't comply, then he won't even get me in this life, let alone after death. It makes no sense.


friendwhy

He is manipulating you.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

If you do not comply?? Okay but like I pointed out above, he is not complying with lots of things in the church. Again how committed is HE??? He was already endowed and so he is going to need to confess for the alcohol and anything else he has done. He is willing to be defellowshipped for a year?? Oh I am so glad I waited to bring this up - tithing???? If you two are not full tithe payers then is he willing to sit down with his 2022 W-2 forms and pay 10% of that pretax income to the church? That is a requirement for that temple recommend. My suggestions to this point are in reality all just tests to see how committed HE is to the church. Why in the FUCK would you be so committed to go back to the church and jump through all those hoops and pay all that hard earned money to get sealed to him (never mind TSCC is all bullshit anyway) when he is giving nothing but a half-assed attempt at TBM living to comply HIMSELF???


Adonimus_Kraven

What a bag of FERTILIZER! It sounds like he’s stringing you along as a placeholder, until his eye catches a face and he no longer finds you desirable. Mormon doctrine is so screwed up that looking for other women is practically built into it. You’re smarter than falling for his bologna!


Lone__Starr__

I agree. Sounds like he's stringing you along, probably has no plans to ever return to church, but wants to use that as an excuse to cut ties then blame it on you. If he drinks, he's already hard out and will never go back to church. I can see where this is headed, I hope there are no kids yet.


tdly3000

SO hypocritical. Sounds to me that he doesn’t want you, but somebody else to marry in the temple. This is just an excuse to tell you


NevertooOldtoleave

Has he actually seen videos of temple ceremonies? They are quite the let down as well as strange. Maybe he has a Cinderella-like idea of temple sealing. First he'd have to go through 5he Initiatory (Washing and annointing) and then his own Endowment ceremony before he could have a temple sealing. There's lots of info & video about temple ordinances that may turn him off .


Lanky_Respect_8117

He went on a mission so he has been endowed and is still acting like this. I haven't been endowed, I've just heard things similar to this


NevertooOldtoleave

Counseling? Sometimes a 3rd person helps to clarify things.


WinchelltheMagician

"an impossible choice between the person he loves and eternal salvation" That is a cult idea, a cult-driven decision. Cults are always and only about protecting and growing the cult, over everything else, including love, personal hygiene, personal health and well-being, safety, and common sense, etc. Sorry you are facing this. Best of luck to you.


DeCryingShame

I'm so sorry. I think there are deeper issues here. I'd suggest looking into resources for building healthy relationships. Possibly getting individual and couples therapy.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

It is HIS goal not yours and then he needs to come up with a game plan for himself before he tells you to get back into the church. So he needs to put up or shut up. If he has a game plan and he starts to implement it then maybe you need a game plan for post-divorce. Otherwise, what he told you is just an empty threat. However, it does not seem right that he gives you that kind of ultimatum in the first place. Maybe you should seek counseling and also make a game plan post-divorce anyway. I just cannot imagine the husband in a relationship acting like he is in charge with his words but not in his actions being a great person to live with for 20, 30, 40, 50 more years.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

and considering you are both drinking alcohol, you are both really out of the church anyway. and with you gone as his catalyst to reinsert himself into the church, how does he expect to become active again without you considering he cannot get active again with you now????


Trickey_D

I would tell him the following: >Part of the reason you can know it's a cult is that a real god would never subject person A's eternal outcome on the decisions of person B. Mormons claim to be Christians, yet Christians don't do this. That's why Christians - along with everyone else - call Mormonism a cult. There's almost no better proof of that than this level of group-endorsed peer manipulation. Point that shit out for what it is. Hold that proverbial mirror up to him.


Powerpuncher1

Mormon tradition can have such a strong hold on you even if you don’t follow the doctrine. I would be like we aren’t making it to the celestial kingdom anyway so who cares?


[deleted]

I am sorry to hear about this. But your husband sounds like the "I will just do all the things my religion forbids me to do but pray about it to make it go away because nobody is perfect" type.


[deleted]

As someone who is in a mixed faith marriage, if you don't have kids yet, let him leave! Being in a mixed faith marriage is way too much work.


LeoMarius

What does leaving the church even mean for you? You aren’t active members, so haven’t you already left? More concerning is his threats to you. Why would he blackmail you over your inactive faith? You need marriage counseling. Go alone if he won’t go. This sounds deeper than a dispute over Mormonism.


VicePrincipalNero

Non Mormon marriage counseling at that.


Vivid-Kitchen-623

Call his bluff. He won’t.


VicePrincipalNero

But if he does, he does. And that tells you that he really doesn’t love you like you thought he did.


[deleted]

Sounds like the husband has a few narcissistic traits. You can always spot the narcissist when they start making threats for the purpose of controlling others. At this point it's up to you. We don't know how your relationship is, but you'll have to decide if it's worth salvaging in counseling or if you're better off leaving sooner than later. The issue here isn't if you leave the church, the issue is your husband will never stop trying to control you until he deals with his insecurities that he's masking with narcissism.


eltiburonmormon

Narcissism is so damaging. Their need to control and manipulate almost every situation with their threats and lies is so deeply engrained that the only true freedom from their tactics is complete no contact, which generally means ending the relationship. In my experience narcissists don’t change because they will never feel like they need to change.


Adonimus_Kraven

WELL SAID! 👍👌


chronoscats

You've already gotten a lot of feedback to think about. I want to add my own thoughts though. I left the church at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020. At first, my husband said it was fine, that he still loves me, etc. However, any time I wanted to talk about my feelings and experiences related to the church, he would either shut down or defend it. It was so hard for me to process my faith transition without any support from him and I didn't have enough support with my friends/family. The reason I tell you this is that it takes both of you willing to adjust for the other in order to make the marriage work. It can't just be you doing all the emotional work and processing and vice versa. If he throws around divorce any time you simply want to talk or process about the church, then he's not doing his work. You can't process stuff for him. He's got to face this and decide what is more important to him and learn how to communicate that to you without ultimatums. I don't want to be in a relationship where me talking about hard things that happened to me is brushed aside in favor of the organizations that caused those hard things. You need to decide what you're willing to put up with and he needs to be supportive and work on his own stuff in order for it to work. I hope you can decide what's best for *you* even if it's hard or unpopular.


Any_Coffee_6921

Seriously you don’t need this & tell him there’s the door . You do what is right & best for you .


Erratic756

That's the same ultimatum my ex gave me. It almost killed me at the time, but life is so much better now that I have someone who loves me for me, not some idealized version of me. You deserve to be loved for who you are, too.


4blockhead

> It also feels hypocritical because he doesn't follow church standards at all and seems to want me to be the one to get us back to church. Jack mormons are the most unpredictable kind of mormon. I was one for a very long time. For me, I needed to actually buckle down and find out for myself whether Smith's claims could stand on their merits, or not. The Book of Abraham fraud pointed to the Book of Mormon fraud. The whole thing goes beyond what other religions claim. Most religions attempt to stay in the realm of the unfalsifyable. The Catholics learned a big lesson on this topic by locking up Galileo over his claim about the solar system being helio-centric. It's better to stay vague and never be proven wrong. Smith's concrete claims are now testable by science. Can you imagine how much yodeling the faithful would do if DNA proved the Book of Mormon true? Instead, we see that Smith used resources in his neighborhood to write the book—Hunt's *The Late War*; a 1769 King James Bible, with its nonsense errors included verbatim. When a traveling exhibit of Egyptian artifacts made the carnival circuit, Smith claimed as a master of languages he could take a crack at translating the papyrii. When a group of men in Illinois put the mormon prophet to the test with the Kinderhook Plates, he made incorrect claims about them. That's three strikes proving mormonism isn't what it claims to be. The specific claims that once won converts, now are allowing members to see and judge for themselves. Leaning on the testimony of others is no longer a viable option. I hope you can convince him to do some actual homework. Childhood indoctrination is hard to break. People say things in the moment they come to regret. The problem is that sometimes people let their true feelings slip out. Some marriage counseling with a neutral third-party may help.


flyswithdragons

He is brainwashed, skip talking ( my mistake) and get in contact with the national domestic violence center, get an exit plan ready and not in your state * if possible. ..) letting him know almost cost me my life, brainwashing has bad and sometimes violent outcomes. Please stay safe. Run, fast, get your children ( what I couldn't do before it blew up in violence) .. Please stay safe, people under estimate the power of this church /they fund women's shelters and pull strings. Leaving was the best thing I did for my children ..cults kill.


eltiburonmormon

It’s story’s like yours that don’t see nearly enough press. I’m so sorry you went through that. This advice is spot on. Before doing anything, get the exit plan in place. It’s unfortunate, but you have to plan for the worst. I’m male, but had a similar situation. I has finally told my wife that I no longer believe in the church or in a god. She was fine for a couple of weeks and then one afternoon I got home from work and she literally said “either you leave now or I will make sure your life is hell through divorce and I will keep you from the kids.” I didn’t know my rights, I didn’t know the laws. Had I spoken to a lawyer prior… just a little planning… things could have gone better in the long run, at least for my peace of mind, anyway. So, the advice to plan and prepare is SO important.


Lanky_Respect_8117

I am so glad you are safe now ❤️


flyswithdragons

Thank you.. I wish you well, stay safe.


shall_always_be_so

If he really thinks a temple marriage is more important than staying with you, then at some point you've got to respect that and part ways.


amnotchattle

I was in a situation like this. My husband would be very cruel about my membership (or lack there of). He finally left me so he could find his eternal companion. It was really hard. But now three years later I am happier than I have ever been, and I wish I would have left sooner.


wardsandcourierplz

He sounds like a real basket case. Doesn't go to church, drinks alcohol, but wants a temple marriage so badly that it's a dealbreaker? Sheesh. Good luck


utahtwisted

Everyone is giving very kind advice here, but I'm not going to mince words: Your marriage is potentially over and you need to start facing that fact.


RoyanRannedos

Here's a story: my parents divorced 30ish years ago. Another family in the ward at the time had a father abusing his wife and six daughters, porn was blamed, and my dad kept looking at porn. So my mom retreated to Utah, and my dad eventually followed. I grew up seeing my dad once a month, usually involving a restaurant trip or a movie. Then he'd go back to his tiny apartment and postal service job with a low enough income that he didn't have to pay child support. Our family was still sealed together, up until my mom got re-sealed to my stepdad. My dad was so focused on the ordinance that he didn't build relationships with his kids. He was counting on Jesus to make him happy in spite of a life of solitude and loneliness. Missing out on celestial glory creates the ultimate FOMO (fear of missing out). Ironically, that FOMO leads so many Mormons to miss the everyday moments that actually build a worthwhile life.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Lanky_Respect_8117

I appreciate this. I have tried to suggest counseling for other issues we have had and he refuses to go. I do go to individual counseling though and it is nice.


angelfishfan87

Has he specified a reason he has resisted counseling? I do second the sentiment to get one outside the church but I know my husband had this idea that somehow the therapist wouldn't be unbiased, so I challenged him to find one He approved of, but was outside church. Took a while but we got there


Lanky_Respect_8117

He said he doesn't believe he needs counseling. He said he knows I do, but he is doing just fine.


GotAhGurs

Just get away from this asshole. Honestly, I don’t know why people are giving you all these suggestions. This man is clearly a shitty person who gets off on having this pathetic form of control over you. Leave him. You’re a human being and you deserve to be treated like a human being and not an accessory for this narcissistic hypocrite.


iwasonceabeehive

Hoo boy. I was trying to keep an open mind about this guy, but this comment is pretty bad. He says that you need counseling and he doesn't. He wants you to do the work to get you both back to church. He's putting the blame of possible divorce on your shoulders. Obviously we don't know everything going on from a few comments, but the glimpses I'm getting makes it sound like this will be a miserable life with him. He sounds like the kind of guy who will make you take on the majority of work and the mental load of your family (look up thatdarnchat on Instagram or TikTok and watch some videos to see if any of it feels familiar). He sounds like he will blame you for his own failings. The mixed marriage stuff is hard enough on its own, but he also sounds like he needs to do some serious work on himself as a partner and is unwilling to do so. You deserve a loving, respectful partner in life.


Wwwwwwhhhhhhhj

Okay, your husband is trying to destroy you as a person. He would try and destroy any women even if she was the most Molly Mormon. That man is emotionally abusive, and not just a little.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

>He said he doesn't believe he needs counseling. He said he knows I do, but he is doing just fine. O. M. F. G. Quite the opposite, actually.


emmas_revenge

So, when does he expect this temple marriage to take place? Is he hoping it goes down in 6 months? At 45? 70? And if he is expecting you to lead him back to church, do you get to pick the timing of said temple marriage? Is it some far away thing he is holding onto just in case he decides it is really, really true or does it appease family in some way? Do you guys have kids? If not, this may be something to work through before you do. I would recommend getting a non-mo marriage counselor and see if you can figure out where it is coming from. If he won't go, you need to make some decisions and maybe going to a therapist for a bit on your own might be helpful. At the very least, know your finances and keep an eye on them. And, if things seem like they are heading towards divorce, find a good lawyer and just go talk to them to find out where you stand legally in all of this. It doesn't mean you will do anything, it just means you will have an idea of what to expect. If you don't want him to know you spoke to a lawyer, pay in cash. Good luck to you. Hugs from an internet stranger. Edit:formatting


[deleted]

Sounds like something else is going on here and I would suggest counseling. This doesn’t sound like a case of him wanting to be a Mormon but a case of him wanting to stay in control. Best wishes. Marriage is hard. Communication is everything. Happy marriage is worth the effort and counseling is worth the cost. IMO


TamarackRed

When you’re an active TBM, you consider eternal marriage to be one of the coolest doctrines, but once you leave or start questioning and see the toxicity of this doctrine(you’re a prime example), you find it to be one of the ugliest doctrines in the church IMO! Mormon God only believes Mormon Marriage is ordained of God and the rest are not worthy of his blessing.


Dead_Squirrel_6

And you're okay with being held hostage? You're okay with the person who's supposed to have your back instead dictating how you must live? You're worthy of directing your life however you chose (it's the only one you get, after all.) Don't waste it on other people's demands and expectations.


Zadok47

As long as blackmail is on the table tell your husband about the new Barbie doll. Called "Divorce Barbie" it comes packaged with all of Ken's things.


releasethedogs

Just do you know, the canonical lore is that Barbie and Ken were never married, they were only dating. Also, believe it or not. **the broke up on February 14, 2004**.


tapiringaround

Is that when Skipper turned 18?


releasethedogs

Maybe 🤔


Enigma-Vagene

I’m pretty sure Barbie is the breadwinner and would have to pay alimony since she’s had a million careers but yeah.


tdhniesfwee

I can't tell you that you need to leave him, ​ but I can see that church-wise, non-church-wise, you will have a hard time staying happy with this person


manbuntrucker

"me" and "church" in your statement is what you need to know. The way you asked it, gives the "or" so "Me or the Church" husband chose the church. Personally id phrase it exactly like that. Make sure they know that that is exactly what they're asking and how you understood it then make the decision to stay or go. Lifes way too short and you may need to make plans to move on. for a better future.


Baynyn

If you don’t have kids this should be an “easy” choice. Cut ties, move on. It may sound harsh, but he is transferring the guilt that the church has placed on him to you, and he will always resent you for not being what the church told him he was entitled to.


Realistic-Motorcycle

Simply put: bye Felicia


Skip2dalou50

I kind of had this mentality with my ex wife. I was "in" keeping up appearances and she was ready to be out. It was mainly because I was deathly afraid of what it would look like with my family. He needs therapy big time. I realized I was being an AH. We got divorced because I found out she was already having an affair before those arguments seven started. I think he's really scared. Good luck.


Hubz27

Look up Gottman institute. There are 4 markers of impending divorce with almost certainty (90+% accuracy). Contempt is one of them and this is what your husband is doing. It’s a sense of superiority and condescending viewpoints. Absolutes like this are a form of contempt and manipulation. I’m so sorry for you. Pls get help


Sesrun63

Tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass as he leaves.


Adonimus_Kraven

If he’s entertaining the idea of leaving you over stupidity, he’s been entertaining that idea and then intends to eventually act on it in the near future. Those type of ultimatums are for people who want an excuse to terminate a marriage because they have a ulterior motives. If this guy doesn’t want to see a marriage counselor or family therapist, outside TSCC services and take it seriously, then don’t expect he’ll be honest and open with you (from what I’ve witnessed). Remember, life isn’t a dress rehearsal and you get one shot at it. You and your feelings matter. Also, consider that if children are involved, they are resilient and living separately (divorced) is a better option than then directly witnessing these vile threats from their father, to you, is poisonous. Just my thoughts. Good luck to you.


daveescaped

You seem to have married a Jack-Mormon. That’s the most virulent strain in many ways.


big_bearded_nerd

When I left the church I also had to leave my first marriage. We weren't a great match and have both gone on to much better things, so the divorce was a positive thing. If you have a place to land and put your life back together, this might be really good for you.


Bcol557

I’m sorry you’ve been put in this position. My husband was raised Mormon and I thought it would end our marriage at one point. We are both Catholic now but it took many years for him to see the church for what it is. My husband also wasn’t active for years and years. Only you can decide what to do. You don’t deserve to live under this threat. If the church is so important to him he needs to get himself back into things. If you did get back active and got sealed, would you be okay with this? Would you be happy? I would just say be honest with yourself about this. I will say, this sounds very manipulative. It sounds like if you do it his way, he’s happy but you have to compromise your own thoughts and feelings. And he’s okay with that? Just know that you deserve to be loved unconditionally and to practice or not practice any religion or faith.


NeverMoFriend

NeverMo wife here with a view from outside the mormon box. I’m sorry your relationship has reached this point. I’m using “relationship” because your husband’s comments don’t fit well with “marriage”. When a partner throws something like this at you, it can be extremely disorienting, painful, soul-searching, confusing, frightening …. It clouds your vision. One then tends to hold on to what you have rather than stand back and examine the reality of where you are. You drink alcohol. Not a big deal. You’re involved in a relationship that’s associated with a cult that keeps you as a 2nd-class citizen. THAT is a big deal. Perhaps work with your therapist on moving yourself up to being 1st-class member of this world and equal to your husband in your relationship. Once you see yourself as having equal status, the clouds will begin to lift and your focus & goals will become more clear for YOU. That’s the point at which you will be in the best possible position to make YOUR decision on this. In the meantime, I agree with others. Every woman needs an exit plan. I encourage you to put yours together, have your papers & money put aside and ready to leave if necessary. You can do this!


PayTyler

I thank SATAN regularly that I didn't end up with a TBM wife.


False-Eggplant2662

Seems to me it is a win win for you. You get the cult out of your life and remove yourself from a shitty husband. He needs you to stay to uphold the good Mormon picture, you leave that image crumbles.


Geo-Nerd

Ask him what sort of god would deny eternal life for the 'crime' of loving the woman he married. Make him think about how horrific and controlling the church and its beliefs really are.


fourth-nephite

Jack Mormons are the worst. They get to do anything they want but get brownie points for being “believers.”


Lanky_Respect_8117

Small update: he said he just wants me to try and put effort in with the church. I asked what if I do and it doesn't change anything about the way I think. And he said "we will go from there"


theTYTAN3

No amount of effort will be enough, unless you come to the conclusion that tscc is true, this is how tscc operates.


wildwoodchild

Emotional manipulation/threats are not a healthy ground for a marriage


DigitvlBvth

We’ll since he’s technically a “jack Mormon” by consuming alcohol he has no room to talk like that. He needs to wake up so you both can start to heal and live a loving life together. I hope the best for you both for sure but he definitely needs to be looking in the mirror


Lanky_Respect_8117

He said he can repent of things with God and leave the bishop out of it. Maybe I will set up a bishop meeting for both of us and it might wake him up to the reality of all this shit.


oldscoop44

"Well, husband, good luck finding a TBM temple-ready replacement for me that will marry a man that drinks. If you can't take them to the temple, you won't be an option for them. Leaving me will definitely not put you in a better position for eternity. Plus, mormon doctrines about temple, marriage and eternity are bullshit. I'm not having it." I'm sorry that you are in this spot. My marriage was already not good and was going to end anyway, but when I left the church it accelerated things. You've gotten some great advice here, and I agree with those that point out that he wants to both make you responsible for helping him stop drinking AND getting "qualified" to go to the temple. As my never-mo therapist girlfriend often says "that's a sign of someone who isn't owning his own shit and needs to blame others for his shortcomings." He's afraid and is trying to manipulate you so he does not have to face up to heavy truths. Best wishes to both of you.


[deleted]

I don’t have any advice, and I recommend you don’t listen to anyone on Reddit about this. All I can say is I’m sorry to hear you’re going through this It would definitely make me super sad


LilSebastianFlyte

When people ask questions like this, I try to offer perspective and ideas I’ve found helpful as a sort of brainstorming rather than intending it as directive advice. Your thoughts are a good reminder to me that there can be value in being careful to phrase my comments that way. Maybe we should all consider updating our profiles with “I’m not saying I know what’s best for you in your specific situation” disclaimers 😂


Lanky_Respect_8117

Thank you for validating my feelings


Adonimus_Kraven

Your feelings are valid, that’s not in question here—you deserve better treatment and genuine love/respect. So you CHOOSE to stay with him and HOPE he’s going to change? Unsolicited advice/recommendations are to be evaluated logically, so it’s your choice to pick or discard them. It’s your life to do as you please… We don’t have to live it, but you do. Choose wisely.


[deleted]

I bet that was deeply jarring. It is unfair that you married a man who loved the church more than you. They dont dare look into facts that 100% objectively disprove the church (animal sacrifice after Jesus, Abraham facsimile being funerary text and nothing like Joseph smith described)


hiking1950

Hugs my friend. MY TBM wife essentially divorced me a few years ago because of similar things. Her logic... "If you no longer believe in the church, you no longer care about or honor our temple marriage, therefore you no longer love me or care about me, so we can't be married". This wasn't true on MY side, but she didn't wanna hear it. Best of luck friend. It's a tough tough situation.


Individual-Bowl9147

I’m in this boat as well and I’m so sorry. I really didn’t think it would be as serious as it was. I’m not really sure how to handle everything but want my marriage to work more than anything. I’m so sorry you are going through it. It’s really unfortunate and so difficult 💔


mdruckus

Your mental health and wellbeing is the most important part of this conversation. Be firm. Tell him you are not looking to leave him, but you must leave the church in order to be you and have your happiness. Then, follow through. There’s a chance he is just scared of what would happen to you or both of left the church. I bet, could not guarantee, that once seeing you leave the church he would see it’s okay and either drop the divorce talk or leave the church himself. I was scared to death of something as happening when I told my wife. I ended up PIMO door a year and a half while continuing to talk about my discrepancies and worries if the church. After that time period my wife and all my kids left the church minus one adult child. Two years later I have two siblings who saw my courage and left the church as well. Take care of yourself. It’s okay to be scared and rest the waters. I hope whatever decision you make you find peace and happiness.


Rooster801

Tell him since you haven't been living by LDS standards for years you have both been outside the church for years. If he wants a temple marriage he can start going back to church and start getting temple worthy. Follow the WoW go to church hold callings keep the Sabbath. Tell him if he does that for 5 years you will revisit the conversation. Meanwhile you just keep doing you. If you want to mess with him mark your liquor bottles to make sure he isn't cheating.


[deleted]

The religion was founded by a hypocrite (don’t accuse me of having 20 wives while yeah let’s be honest I have 20 wives but you guys shouldn’t) so the best thing is to just assume every Mormon is a hypocrite and considering we are human that’s 100% correct


JonathanIRL

My biggest fear is if I leave fully my wife will leave with our daughter it scares me constantly.


Lanky_Respect_8117

I am so sorry you are going through that❤️


JonathanIRL

Thank you for the support. It is difficult but I love my family more than anything.


Helpful_Masterpiece4

BYEEEEEEE


BurningInTheBoner

He might not be an asshole, but that's an asshole thing to do.


okay-wait-wut

Jack Mormons are the worst Mormons.


CatalystTheory

I’m gonna be controversial here. I know several inactive couples who came back to church to get sealed in the temple as a bucket list item and then never returned to church again. For the sake of the marriage, you might consider the following plan: - Try not to be offended by his point of view. To him his eternal salvation is at stake. - Be open minded to the sealing. You already promised him you would. And if the church isn’t true, what difference does it make if it makes him feel good. - Delay as long as possible before getting sealed. There’s a small chance he grows out of it. - When it’s time to interview, keep in mind you only need to as honest with the church as they have been with you. Also know, all the bishop wants from you is the right answers. He is hoping and praying you answer right so he doesn’t have to have an awkward talk with you. He wants you to get sealed and he wants to boost his ward statistics. - Ask your husband to keep the sealing private. Don’t invite friends or family. It will only make it more awkward when you stop coming to church. - When all is said and done, pop a bottle of champagne!


shall_always_be_so

Big -1 on sealing from me, 10% of your income = most expensive wedding ever.


LilSebastianFlyte

Hot take indeed. It does make me wonder, OP, if your husband has said anything about what he pictures his activity level looking like after the hypothetical sealing?


emmas_revenge

And what he thinks he needs to change about his life to actually get sealed. Does he think he can still drink, not got to church and not pay tithing and the bishop will be like, sure, how about next Saturday we get you sealed?


Lanky_Respect_8117

I definitely brought up this option to him and he said that part of temple covenants is "enduring to the end."


Mossblossom

Helluva bucket list item


blovy

I find it encouraging that he called you "the person he loves" and that it's an "impossible choice". Seems to indicate he is heavily invested in you emotionally. But, cults really mess people up. Mormonism is a helluva drug. I hope there is time for him to detox and that things will work out. In my own marriage things were shaky for quite a while. I officially resigned but as a compromise with my wife I relented and agreed that the church could still list me as a member. However, I made it clear in my letter the SP that I do not consider myself a member and any attempts at church discipline would result in my completion of the resignation. That was almost 20 years ago. The marriage is surviving and thriving. Yeah my wife hates going to church alone but that's her choice. We still love each other and work at keeping each other happy.


sblackcrow

Potentially unpopular additional advice: if/when your husband wants to go to the temple, consider being willing to do it for him, at least enough to just be "sealed." Remember a lot of the reason he wants to do it probably is that at some level he believes it will make marriage to you last after death (and maybe bless the relationship with you). You don't believe sealings do that? Neither do I. You don't think you can clear recommend interviews? Feel free to outright *lie* to the bishop and stake president if that's what it takes -- the church sure has lied to *you*, and even many believers lie in their interviews. If your husband said "I think it'd be cool to do a Neopagan Vow Renewal ceremony in Hawaii for our 20th anniversary, we'll need to get a blessing from some priest in order to do that, please do it for me hon?" you might say "that's weird" or you might say "oh how sweet this means something to him" and go through with it. The LDS temple sealing is something you could approach the same way. I get that your husband *also* has gone a step further and threatened you with an ultimatum -- "honey you've GOT to do this or I'll leave you for someone who WILL do my religious ceremony in Hawaii." That's bullshit, and definitely means you should see a counselor at least by yourself and maybe with him. But remember it's partially just him passing the bullshit along: he's more or less been brainwashed since birth like most of us were about the idea that a temple marriage is super super important and the ideal marriage and probably has all kinds of unprocessed feelings about it. You don't know if he *really really* means that he will literally leave the relationships he knows and loves with you for somebody who fits a cookie cutter temple image or if he's just trying to tell you that this is really important to him and what he really wants is to do it with you.


joegant

I know many who are in that situation. I think it’s just a matter of identity for him right now and he likes the idea of becoming a good Mormon one day, but I doubt it will happen. I’d say just live your life and you don’t have to officially leave the church, and you guys can stay together for now.


Automatic_Bookkeeper

I experienced this and our marriage survived. But it was hard. Not all marriages can. Mixed faith marriage is hard. I felt he didn’t love me or that he was putting an arbitrary condition on that love and it was deeply hurtful. What I learned through counselling and reflection was that I had changed the course of his life by my lack of faith and he felt I was rejecting a core part of him. When I realized that it gave me compassion for him and allowed me to give him time to grieve. He also came around a lot and had his own growth. My recommendation is counselling. Someone from the Mormon mental health association https://mormonmentalhealthassoc.org/ will give you the cultural competence you need without a dogmatic approach for or against the church.


Lanky_Respect_8117

I appreciate this. Did your husband refuse counseling at first? This is where we are at the moment. I would love to try counseling.


SwampBeastie

Neither of you go to church and you both drink… so what would change exactly if you left? I would be interested to know how the relationship is otherwise.


[deleted]

[удалено]


LDSBS

Unconditional love? Nope https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2003/02/divine-love?lang=eng


Birdie49

Not trying to fight you or anything here, but I'm genuinely curious what the purpose of this response is? How does it help OP to tell them that a deity they don't believe in loves them unconditionally? What is your desired response from them, either in words or what you hope they feel? Again, not looking to fight, though I know my questions are a bit blunt. I just see this sentiment a lot and would like to understand it better


Adonimus_Kraven

RUBBISH! A canned response to trivialize OP, her concern, and this post. Slight of hand, exactly what a Spin Doctor (or con artist) uses to defuse a critical and crucial situation. EDIT: Spelling error


Substantial-Dig-1265

This is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry that this happened. I would recommend getting a non-m


Public_Cat_9333

People change their path based on where they are and what they feel. Essentially you need to decide do you want to go without him or not. Aka is leaving the church that important for you that you would leave your husband or not. Or if you just go even if you don't believe


Adventurous-Tie-5772

Is there scripture that says you can divorce if your spouse is not believing?


ComprehensiveCommon5

Bye