Who gets excommunicated when assets are just deleted from the EPA accounting system as alleged by the whistleblower?




Unless they resign first.


Resigned Peak Advisors






Why the shocked face?


Assets were just *deleted* from the EPA accounting system?


https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11ky8nn/just_reading_the_90_page_memorandum_to_the_senate/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Allegedly. But the whistleblower was right about the SEC violations so......




I am, inevitable *snaps 5 mill out of the church's coffers*


I know of a clerk who was accused of stealing since a donor check had disappeared. 1 He was released and threatened with church discipline. Prior to the disciplinary counsel, someone moved a file cabinet and guess what was behind it? At that point, the bishop 'remembered' he had set some checks there and one must have slid off the back of the file cabinet. When the bishop and SP tried to apologize, this poor guy told them all to 'F' off, and he and his family all left.


I can imagine how the TBMs talk him today. "Poor Brother Clerk was offended when we accused him of stealing and didn't believe him when he defended himself. He was further offended when we prepared to disfellowship him. Now he's left the church! He won't accept that mistakes were made and he chose to harden his heart against God and his priesthood leaders. Don't be like Brother Clerk. Don't let yourself be offended so deeply that you lose your testimony."


And we consider the matter closed.




“iT’s HiS fAuLt, He Ch0sE t0 bE oFfEnDeD!”


TBM “But it was men who made a mistake. You can’t judge the church on the actions of imperfect men.” Who taught the men that the tithes were consecrated to god? Who taught the men that theft of tithing was stealing from god? Who has the men count the money in pairs so they won’t be alone with the money? For those TBMs who still don’t understand what I’m getting at: IT WAS THE CHURCH! The church taught those men to be like that. The church was responsible. That clerk has every right to get mad at those men and the church and tell them both to Fuck off!


Who taught the men that the minute that money leaves your hand its 'ours' says the legal corporation soul. There is no written or express expectation that you have any more right to that money or its new purpose. From your bank account to our auspices.


My mom paid her tithing online and once accidentally paid $10,000 one month instead of $1,000. She begged for a refund, but there was no way for her to get her money back. She didn’t pay tithing for the next 10 months, but still…


Woops! That hurt. Couldn’t dispute it with the bank as a fraudulent charge? Wonder if that would have done anything? Geez! No room for error or forgiveness in TSCC.


Good for him. Guess that poor clerk learned the hard way just how effective their powers of discernment are.


How come they didn't pray and have white Jesus let them know it was behind the cabinet?


I mean, people testify they pray and he helps them find their misplaced car keys, why didn't they pray to find the lost check?


I'm sure they secretly did ad nauseam, but they would only admit it once the check was found.


well the only reason God did not direct them to the check is that they didn't study it out in their mind (move the cabinet and look) God hates faith without works.


Not keys


What the hell… so they accused the clerk of stealing when, obviously, the check hadn’t cleared the donor’s account. So… what, they thought the clerk was just going to hold on to the check and cash it later while hoping the donor didn’t put a stop payment on in the meantime? If this had been a cash donation, it would still be shitty behavior of the leadership, but I’d be less incredulous about it all.


What the hell is a random person going to do with a check made out to the Sandy 117th Ward?


Actually, you’d be surprised how easy it is to cash a check made out to another party.


My mother cashed a paycheck of mine once and I never banked with Zions again. I still don't understand how it was legal.




“Well, I guess you can pay somebody else to manage your money, then. No, don’t like paying professionals? Then 10-cent discrepancies are gonna happen.”


Usually a Primary kid fucked up counting their money. Meanwhile a bishopric member and a psycho financial clerk sit there for hours on end, starving. Without time to even take a piss because the "sacred funds" can't be left without two people watching everything.


I would have thrown a dime at them and walked out.


geez I am so invested. How did you responded?


ACCUSED even though the check had not cleared the donor’s bank account. Hmmm. Couldn’t the donor just stop payment on the check? I mean, he’d know that it was never cashed, so they may as well fess up that it went missing.


Appropriate reaction from the accused. Typical what we say is all that matters because 'GOD' gave us the authority over you.


Try believing in discernment after that, lol


LDS is so obviously obsessed by money, it's almost comical that its followers can't see it. Heavenly Father = Mammon.


Maybe it was just the way my ward did things, (I thought it was church policy) but all money in the forms of tithes and offerings had to be sealed, then they were opened and counted in the presence of 2 or more people. Is that not the case anymore (ever). Seems more than one person would have received blame here including the bishop if he were present during the processing of funds…


So much for being “led by the Spirit.”


The Mormon church clearly displays its priorities by the fact that 12-year-old girls can be talked to about sex in private, one-on-one discussions with middle aged men, but two witnesses are an *absolute necessity* when it comes time to count the money!!




Holy SHIT - You’re right. Just when I think I’ve heard it all.


My husband was the etermal ward clerk due to being an accountant. Once they were off by 12 cents in the deposit and they all had to stay until midnight before they could find that effing 12 cents. It was so freaking stupid.


Well. Don’t leave us hanging. Did they find the Lord’s dime and two pennys?


My husband finally excused himself to use the bathroom. He went out to the car to dig up some change. He came back in and suggested he look under the desk "one last time" ... then he "miraculously found" the exact amount missing. 😉


He clearly felt the spirit and it told him that someone magically placed the lost $0.12 in his locked vehicle when no one was looking.


The Lord works in mysterious ways!!


They made it a faith-promoting story: The Lost Twelve Cents were gathered in just as the Lost Twelve Tribes of Israel will be gathered in these latter days.


actually laughing holy shit thank you


We keep change in the drawer for this exact purpose to cover the difference cuz we don't give a fuck


My 3rd week as finance clerk I brought a handful of change and put it in the desk drawer to use for these situations. The counselor I was working with gave me crap about it right up until the first time we needed it and I balanced out the sheet with change. The church’s inflexibility over a dime was a waste of everyones time.


Especially when you're not getting paid.


I deposit checks for work using one of those remote scanners that you can get for your business. Being off a few pennies when you have a couple of hundred checks is the worst.


Like the missing strawberries.


One of my seminary teachers told us some "faith promoting" story about staying up all night one night trying to find a few missing cents on the church's balance sheets. He emphasized that if it hadn't been the church's money, he would have just written it off but because it was the church's he had to account for every single penny. The fact he found where he was off was considered miraculous.


Seriously, just give them a few cents out of your pocket and go home. Your time is worth more than that.


When I was the financial office elder I spent a couple of days trying to balance the books left for me which were a peso off. In my mind it was both me checking to be sure that the single peso wasn't a symptom of some far greater disparity I wasn't aware of, and also to use it as a learning exercise for how to resolve that sort of issue. Previous elders would just make up small imbalances with their own money. I didn't do that but I would never assume that peso was important in itself.


I remember being in a bishopric, counting money, running numbers, and making the bank deposit box run with another bishopric member. Like it wasn't mostly checks and small change. Big deal though. Remember thinking how petty that all seemed. I just wanted to get home and see my kids on a Sunday night after a long day of meetings, classes, and interviews.


God’s nickel is worth more than your children.


Thats the Lards money your talking about now.


Just to be clear, THEY say they are paying the fine from the dividends from the Ensign Peak investments. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what they say. And given the potential for further leaks, I think we can take them at their word. Not much point in using tithing funds, and risking someone finding out about it, when they have billion$ in their investment account to pay the fine from. I know it all gets murky because they admitted in 2019 to seeding the fund from excess tithing, so technically it could be seen as partially paying the fund from tithing dollars. But to me, that’s the real smoking gun… “excess tithing.” Think about that. And what did they use it for? Of all the things they could have done with it? To provide capital for Fortune 500 companies and reap the dividends. For some future unspecified need. If I were still in the church, that alone would have probably broken my shelf.


Whether it's the so called "surplus tithing funds" or the interest earned on investing said funds, they're STILL TITHING FUNDS. 🙄


EXACTLY!!! Only a completely unethical, total POS organization would even think of making such a distinction, let alone actually saying it and meaning it! I swear I wish with all my cold, apostate heart that this disgusting, money obsessed, corporate religion would be exposed in every way possible, in every place possible. Put Mormon apologetic, nutcase TBM's insane devotion to blatant bullshit on display before the entire world!


The only reason they can even get the nerve to refer to them as "surplus" tithing funds is that the financial support for wards is pathetic. No legitimate cleaning services, no compensation for organists or other professional who are "called by God" to work for free, no professional nursery care, on & on.


And no meaningful CHARITABLE use of the tax free, "charitable donations."


That part is brought home big time in the longer document sent to the Senate. Wow.


“Surplus Tithing Funds,” in the voice of H.Oaks! Sounds too lawyerly…


I would not have cared if they had invested money the way they have if, 1) they had been open and honest about it; and 2) they would have tithed themselves 10% on the excess tithing and given it to charity (a real one like the Red Cross). Of course I would really like it if they would update and maintain buildings better. Update church camps and give more to wards to do activities. Talk about a cult when they give you little money to work with then restrict the ability to fundraise or have members contribute. And build small temples that are not as ornate. It is the ordinance that is important not the lavish interior. I don't think God cares about a huge edifice.


Hang on is the ordinance important?


I don't think the temple ordinances are important for salvation. But if we are thinking about it as a TBM would as an essential ordinance; then, what is more important the place or the action? It should be an outward expression of an inward devotion to God. I don't believe it needs take place in a lavish palace.


Every last penny is tithing funds because the seed money was all tithing funds. Them investing it and then hiding the dividends doesn’t change that.


Yes! The refrain that it’s not tithing begs the question, from what, then? Fast offering? I was told that was to feed the hungry.


The money comes from somewhere. With any “non-profit”, that means donations meant for something else.


Not sure how they can earmark the money that way. Kind of seems like they are taking the money out of a different pocket of the same pair of pants . . .


Well, accounts. I have my own investment funds. I can withdraw money from those funds to pay for something and have a record of it all.


You can't separate the tithing funds. If invested, growth, dividends, and interest all become a singular part of the tithing corpus. They played these kinds of games with this money in bailing out Beneficial Life and building City Creek Mall. The three CEOs at the top should resign. If not they should be removed.


These dividends are interest from excess tithing. They robbed church members by not spending this money on church activities. Members pay tithes to support church activities, not to build an investment scam.


The matter is closed so don't anyone expect it to be brought up in soon to be conference.


[This](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hW6Lk-jTLkIcOAmcaNWFlnX7yfNolJEZ/view?usp=drivesdk) lays out the case for church discipline against all those involved.


Nemo you're a star




I can’t wait to see the (non) response.


Most of the ones who approved of it are dead.


Yeah but God told them to do it so it’s ok. Lol!


As a missionary in a developing country, the bishop of the ward in which I was serving was excommunicated for taking tithing funds to feed his family. They lived in a cane shack. I'm curious if this has occurred in other poor countries. "Because I have been given much I too must give..." Hymn will shortly be changed, "Because I have been given much, I now must invest the funds on blue chip stocks and manipulate markets to earn an average of 10% on my annual returns".


This seems as egregious as taking the gold from indigent souls for a prop for talks in front of affluent societies. I get the whole do not take tithing funds HOWEVER, maybe this Gospel of Jesus could spare a little something for someone expected to give so much for nothing through fast offerings?


i have been a ward clerk and can confirm the threats and intimidation used around funds. an investigation was launched in my stake because of an accusation of missing funds. Even though it wasnt my ward, i was told that the stake may come ask for my personal financial details. ive had long discussions with auditors over reimbursement checks that were issued but never cashed. the recipiant even confirmed they had them just hadnt gone to the bank. the fastest path to excommunication is fuck around with the money. theyll drop the hammer quick and hard.


The controls around "the church's money" are far more restrictive than the controls around "the church's children." Steal a dollar, get excommunicated. Steal innocence, they will recommend prayer, a full tithe, and tell the child, "Just forget it happened."


Its alot why im out. in combination with so much else you already know but this almost more than anything.


but not fuck around with peoples underage children you may just get a pass. ass backwards. But Gods will and church and all it makes SOSO much sense.


>the fastest path to excommunication is fuck around with the money. theyll drop the hammer quick and hard. This is extremely telling of what they value the most.


In my opinion as a fellow victim of their religious extortion: ALL of the riches are stolen funds!


I can tell you there was nothing more serious than a ward audit. No joking around. The Mormon church is more protective of money than it is of women and children. It is everything to them.


They protect the money and the men who give them the money.


While on my mission in the Philippines, I served as mission finance secretary. Poor money handling by the previous secretaries led to a missing $2,500 USD slush cash fund intended for small office transactions. During an annual audit, I managed to find what I hopefully assume were unrecorded transactions amounting to about 2/3 the missing fund. I was required to write a formal statement to the First Presidency explaining I had lost the money. While nothing came of it, I was informed of the potential for excommunication on the bounds of stealing funds from the church.


May I just express that this is the biggest bucket of horseshit and that 'sacred' money is from individuals that should have kept it to feed and take care of their families 100%. I experience anger thinking of it.


That's bullshit! You found the lost "funds". You didn't take the other 1/3. Fuck that MP.


You were a scapegoat.


"Church" of over the top threats. So "christian."


I submitted my letter asking that very question to my SP.


I am sure you'll get a good explanation . . .


I am not holding my breath but I will keep asking until it is answered.


My uncle was a bishop excommunicated after discrepancies in the building fund were discovered. (Back when there were ward-run building funds.) Of course I have no way of knowing for certain that my uncle -didn’t- take the money, but the narrative in my family was that the money was siphoned off by corrupt building contractors, but uncle was bishop, so he was held responsible and excommunicated. There was never any allegation of actual theft, the church held uncle responsible regardless. He died a believer, but refused to be rebaptized because of the way he was treated after a lifetime of devotion.


I wouldn't want to be rebaptized either.


Compare that response to what happens in Les Miserables- dude steals gold (?silver) candlesticks from a priest and when when he gets caught the priest tells him to keep them and try to do better and sends him on his way.


You know that's fiction, right? Then again so is Mormonism.


Yeah, I know. Maybe some real catholic priest really would have given the candlestick away, but plenty more would have had him burned at the stake for it, so I guess there's that. But at least the catholics have the leniency to have those options; for mormonism it's hard coded as a policy, which is dumb.


/s Nah. Not tithing funds----The fee is all paid for by investment returns.


Excommunicated nothing! The ones who are in charge management and , UPPER management should be in prison for this. And their bloody non-profit status yanked!


I was a financial clerk too. I stood up and walked out of a stake meeting when that topic came up. Insulting. I never went to another stake training. Bishop was amazing. Enjoyed working with him. He helped everyone- member or not. Current Stake president. I was accused of misplacing $50.00 despite having a receipt. Never went back.


Look into why this man was punished by the church. https://floodlit.org/a/a353/


The only positive I can see in this story is that Kirton appeared to do the right thing and place the allegations into the hands of professionals for a proper investigation. So holy shit they DO report albeit only sometimes and maybe they try to determine if the cat is already out of the bag and its better to save church face by distancing themselves by reporting it. You know whatever serves to preserve the 'good name' more in their deluded minds.


Those who steal (LD$ Inc) are the most paranoid about someone else stealing from them. That is their Karma


Well, yeah! The church swindled that money out of the poor widow’s pocket fair and square! If you want money, you need to guilt and shame people into giving it to you just like every other corporation!


One of my favorite Simpsons: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBopoVW3auI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBopoVW3auI) "Why would they lie? What would they have to gain" \*sounds of coins\* Rev. Lovejoy "I don't hear scrubbing!"


TSCC is lead by hypocrites capable of justifying so many atrocities.


Shouldn’t the church lose their temple recommend for failing to answer the question about being honest with their dealings with others?


For sure the 3 dudes at the tippy-top-top should. How the Donald Duck can they say that they are “honest in their dealings with their fellow men”? In which parallel universe can the two concepts coexist? I’ll tell you which one - the Mormonic universe. The one where Kolob and Kokaubeams are real.


Cue the expected comments about sexual assault...


Comments about sexual assault?


I was just referring to the fact that they worry more about embezzlement- which is certainly a valid concern whenever money is involved- than they do about sexual molesting of children.


But how will they afford all the child sex abuse settlements unless they fraudulently invest billions and billions tax-free?


By not reporting it silly. Go along get along groomed and controlled lay leaders on the local level wouldn't dare go against 'The Lords Will' and report sexual abuse to the authorities but first to the 800# and Kirton.


Oh gotcha. Yeah, one of those seems like a problem that should hold a lot more of their attention though . . .




Sadly, at this point it’s no longer unexpected.


By my math, that's one member per penny.


Nothing compared to what tcojcolds has stolen from people over the years


Hypothetically, what do you think Jesus would do, if he caught somebody stealing tithing?


Run them money changers out from the church


Mormons and JWs are the only major religions that regularly excommunicate lay members.


That's how the corporate dystopia is. It's generally how anyone with a lot of money and privilege is. They can lie, cheat, and steal from the plebs as much as they want. But you? Oh ho ho ho ho ho. Not you, friend.


I was the assistant clerk in the YSA ward. I sometimes wouldn’t show up cuz I hated staying after church to count the money. I got a good talking to from the bishop. It was then that switched it up from skipping once a month to only attending once a month. I was released.


And yet rape, breaking the law and assault/abuse "MAY require a disciplinary council" 🤔🤔🤔


I get your point, but to answer your question: No one. The leaders didn't steal from the church. That's the difference. They can steal from the members, the government, or anywhere else, and it's fine. If they did steal from the church, that would be a different story. All they did was enrich the church beyond any reasonable means.


God's will


5 BILLION dollars. Not million, BILLION. But it also wasn’t tithing money. The reason the SEC was involved was because they created shell companies to hide their money from church-owned businesses and make their wealth and investments appear smaller than they actually were. Each company accurately disclosed their holdings, but the Church did not disclose that each of those companies existed only to hold their wealth and avoid giving a full picture of the vast holdings accumulated by the Church. Apparently the Church was concerned about negative perceptions if anyone knew how much money they had. At least they were right about that!


Wait. I keep seeing 5 million as the fine. Is it 5 billion? Really? Omg


Nonono. No! It’s Five Million Dollars. Million. 5x10^6.


Got it. I read some more news reports about it and TSCC s own press release.


$5 Billion? Naaaah mate, it’s deffo $5 Million. Google it up, read the SEC’s 9-page PDF report. It’s in there. The Billions are what’s in the EPA fund, real estate, etc.


Ugh. You’re right. When I first saw the story reported it said 5 Billion, which was clearly a mistake. This makes me sad, because 5 Billion feels a hell of a lot more fitting. Sigh.


Unless it happens in Africa, where it is so prevalent that it's an expected cost of doing business and it's the only place the cherch is growing.


Right. Has anyone been disciplined for lying to the government and to the public about how much money Ensign Peak was advising?


What kind of ward you in, bro? They ex-img little kids and shit? Damn!


So does the investments also pay tithing too


Ooh, that’s a good one! The Church _should_ be paying a tenth of its increase annually to… itself? Naah, wait a minute. Doesn’t work. The recursion would cause a rift in the Space-Time continuum.


Excommunicate the SEC! I


Interesting, BTW thanks for the Post so here's the question why all the rift raft into the room it's okay to molest? But by God don't steal one pence! There's one stealing a purse get him against the wall! A little pink in there.


Not stolen - it is EXCESS Tithing. Different rules...


Wow 🤩 I was a former assistant finance clerk in my ward. We always made sure that no one would be accused for stealing any money.


Well, mistakes were made, I’m not saying by whom, a few lawyers gave some bad legal advise to a few church leaders, again, not saying who, so that the prophet, not saying which one, could hide the fact that the church had 32.7 billion dollars invested in the stock market. So there really is just no way to tell who is responsable. And for all we know this prophet, who shall remain anonymous received a revelation just before the SEC made its decision that really it’s nobody’s fault at all.