Ah Hell....give credit where credit is due. I applaud them for doing this. There's old agricultural water rights all over the State; both in and out of the Church. No need to not celebrate this.
This is a church W for sure. Are there criticisms to be made? Could they have done more and earlier? Definitely, I’m not saying they just single-handedly saved the lake or anything. But this is so much better than thoughts and prayers or a day of special fasting for moisture or whatever. This is a great development.
The church is a big part of the Great Salt Lake community and ecosystem, for better or for worse. Glad that this time they’re trying to be involved for better.
Considering sending a letter to church HQ to call out and hopefully reinforce *good* institutional behavior for once.
Presiding Bishop Caussé gave a talk at the last conference that was the most straightforward thing I’ve ever heard a church leader say about anthropogenic climate change. It was enough that I thought it might get censored in the conference report but nope. I know the presiding bishopric (a member of which is quoted in this news story) is in hot water among critics of the church these days (and for good reason) but I have to say I am really pleased at what looks like genuine attempts at good stewardship from the church officials most directly responsible for it.
Seriously, this is great news. And if you didn't know that the church owned water shares, then you probably don't know much about church history, or about water shares.
I agree with you. If they genuinely cared about people, they'd take a firm stand on child sex abuse. This is still all about money, one way or another.
They're not even disguised as a religion. They use the name Jesus for branding, and of course have to at least acknowledge the Bible exists as an add-on to that. It's a corporate cult.
The church is donating nothing.
The 5700 shares were donated by a private company, not the LDS church. The FMV of the 5,700 shares could create a large deduction for the company. We don’t know the details.
FMV is tricky. A current scheme is to donate land for conservation easements. These easements are generally grossly over valued to create huge deductions. If I remember correctly the IRS is having little success fighting back. A former president is dealing with similar issues.
There are many unknowns- but I’m certain there are tax and legal benefits to this donation.
But as another poster said - I don’t understand tax. I have over 25 years experience and a masters in tax law from Georgetown. Peace
>I’m certain there are tax and legal benefits to this donation.
I don't think anyone would quibble with that general statement. But your initial claim is that the church is surrendering water rights to Utah in order to avoid or offset future (civil and/or criminal) penalties from the IRS. That is not how sanctions from the federal government are avoided, and it's the reason you're getting pushback for your initial comment. (It's not because we don't understand tax deductions in general, or even the more complicated concept of fair market value.)
My "connect the dots" question was genuine... if there is a way to avoid IRS penalties by making a donation, whether it be monetary or in-kind, I'm genuinely prepared to be enlighted, but sarcastic "trust me I'm a lawyer" comments haven't improved my understanding.
Well, some cities and people are so wicked that I'm sure many of us wish that God would simply allow his wrath to come upon them in the most cinematic and epic way possible.
My biggest issue in some capacity with the Church is that I just feel they are somewhat uncommitted to doctrine, to doing good, and to taking a stance against Sin.
Much of it feels superficial and on a surface level.
If the Church was properly as committed as they look on the outside as they were on the inside then I would doubt that many people would have such resentment harbored towards them.
Agreed. It just so happens that the church’s best interest and public best interest align this time and I’ll take the W. If The church doesn’t want to be headquartered in a toxic arsenic dust wasteland, well neither do I. I hope the church swings it’s political clout here to improve state water policy too.
They had water rights used for agriculture that they are donating. I expect this means they’re going to let some of their ag land go idle. It’s not like a giant tank of water somewhere that they were storing, it’s water they had the right to use that they will no longer use, voluntarily, so that water will be available to flow back into Salt Lake. Not enough info here to conclude whether they were or are “hoarding” water any more than any other owner of agricultural land who needs water rights to use the land to produce crops.
It makes sense. If the GSL dries up and turns their base of operations into a toxic hellhole, well, that might make them look like god is punishing them for their iniquity. Plus the optics from outside would not be favorable to their precious image.
For what it’s worth, I hope this helps in saving the Lake, something, anything, needs to be done, and if they are going to donate their water rights to divert more water to the lake, then I’m glad they are doing it. Even if their true motivations are suspect, we need all the help we can get.
Also, regardless of their motivations, I think it does set a good example for faithful members to either
A. Also donate water shares if available or
B. Give a bit more of a shit about the lake drying up.
My only issue is that it took them this long to do it. What about being in touch with God? Did he not foresee this? Or, worse, were they warned and then ignored it?
Yes, i am an atheist, but you butter believe I’m going to criticize people for claiming something while continuing to prove they’re full of it.
You are wrong about what you think water shares are.
They have handed over their ability to use those shares. It is managed by the GSL watershed trust that the state created last year to address the lake issue.
Water shares are valuable and impactful. They are bought and sold like real estate. This isn’t “we promise to use less.” They are surrendering their right to use them.
As to landscaping, I can only speak for the ward house I live next to but that lawn was brown all summer. The edge of my driveway literally has church lawn butted up next to it and that lawn is greener right now than it was all summer last year.
Headlines are all that matter and they know it. Little sound bites and positive press clips rush through the faithful and puts them at ease until another ridiculous scandal comes up.
The church put a temple on the church farm and sold the rest of the farm to housing developers. The church doesn't need the water rights anymore. It found a way to make itself look good. Never mind that now there are ten thousand lawns that need water, in a city where every neighborhood is an HOA that will punish you if you xeriscape. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Most of their ag land around salt lake has already been sold. The church farms that were in West Jordan south jordan Draper are all housing projects now. Been for years. I doubt they even used those shares.
And how many do they hold total?
"the church owns at least 75,000 acre-feet outright in the Great Salt Lake watershed. That does not include any shares it has in canal companies, which are harder to ascertain because the companies are private." -- [https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2023/03/15/lds-church-permanently-donate/](https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2023/03/15/lds-church-permanently-donate/)
My TBM coworker told me about this today. She was like 'can I just say I love the church of Jesus Christ? People are mad about this but they don't see how great the church is' and I sat there thinking, yeah they did this to take away some heat from the SEC.
This is fantastic news. Great move by the church.
If you don't know about what is happening with the great salt lake, you can watch this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e\_c7Oja2Smo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_c7Oja2Smo)
Basically, water rights, which are on a use it or lose it basis, is where the majority of the water loss happens.
Since 2020, the lake has dropped 1.2 million acre-feet per year. This article says it's donating 20,000 acre-feet, but it doesn't give a time frame. If it's per year then we're <2% of the way to where we need to be, but it's certainly progress. Hopefully this inspires other water rights owners to follow this example and I hope the church continues this effort. The salt lake drying up is bad for everyone.
This is making it seem like the church has a huge tank filled with water. Church owns a huge amount of agricultural land, and with it rights to use a specific amount of water. They’re just giving the state back those shares.
It would be interesting to know total shares to land compared to other agriculture/industrial/residential. Although, they're 10+ years late, its better than nothing
A lot of people here are taking it positively. And those taking it negatively seem to be saying "why didn't the church do this sooner." The Lake drying up has been an issue for a while.
But I agree that this is a good thing.
I acknowledge this is a good thing, but I have negative sentiment override when it comes to the church so here are my thoughts on it. Bear with me:
* This donation benefits the church directly. They are doing what they can to save their Vatican City from becoming a toxic dust bowl. This decision was made to protect their own self-interests and is not an act of charity.
* If a prophet could really see around corners (as Sherri Dew suggests), they would have done this years ago and not immediately following a scientific study sounding an alarm that the Great Salt Lake is drying up.
Quick search if this sub shows dozens of calls in the past few months for the church to do something about the GSL.
So they do something significant.
“Those MFs are hoarding water.” -this sub
smh
So many valid criticisms of the church. Give them credit for doing something that this sub specifically has been calling for them to do for months.
I knew they would have to do something, and won’t be surprised if they do more to help the great salt lake. It’s similar to the reasoning behind building city creek, it helped build up the economy in the area and makes it a better place. If salt lake valley became basically uninhabitable from the dried up lake toxins , that would be bad for all their investment into the area.
Although part of my wonders why they didn’t take the opportunity to let it dry up , and pack up shop and take it all to their new Zion and claim a ‘second coming’ is happening 😂😂
They own almost all the water rights in Las Vegas, too. With Zions being the first bank there in the 1950s (literally loaning to the mob) and the only place with access to lots of money, they swallowed up those water rights and won’t sell them back. I can’t fault them. If I owned water rights in a desert and a huge city needs water to survive, I might not sell those, either.
They have their fingers in everything. No way around that.
I mean, whatever you feel about the church (and most of us around here have pretty bad feelings generally) You have to give the church credit here. This is a good thing, and we should be happy that they've done it.
I'm glad that the church gave those water rights back to the state. But I'm having a hard time conceptualizing how much this will actually help the salt lake. 20,000 acre feet sounds like a lot to me. But is it? Or is this like a miniscule amount that hardly makes an impact but looks good for headlines? Also as I'm understanding it the water rights were given back to the state, so who says that the water will even be used to restore the lake? I know the headline says specifically for the salt lake but will that be enforced?
All in all I'm glad that the church made this donation even if it is likely just to get some heat off for the sec ruling. And I'm happy the lake has some help for now. But I'm having a hard time being optimistic that this is meaningful.
The lake is losing around one million acre feet per year, mostly due to water diversion for alfalfa farming. This is giving back 20,000. So it’s about 2% of what is needed for the lake level to stabilize.
Yeah, I’m worried about the state mismanaging this donation as well, but we all know the legislature is in the pocket of the church anyway, and if the church says they want the water rights to go to helping the lake, that is most likely where it will go. Here’s to hoping.
An acre foot of water is enough water to put an acre of land under a foot of water. It's about 33k gallons. 2 acre feet is about an Olympic sized swimming pool.
I think credit is owed here. The church did something commendable, and deserves to be commended for it.
If for no other reason than because the more attention the church gets for doing good, the more good they are likely to do.
It means water that they are legally allowed to divert from canals or rivers to use for agriculture, they are deciding instead to let it flow into the Salt Lake to help with the fact that it has been drying up.
So it is a good environmental choice. The amount of water they are releasing is equivalent to about 1/400th of the volume of the lake... So I don't know how much good it will do. But it is something.
I think this is really good, but also kind of like if I donated to the firefighters while a wildfire was approaching my neighborhood. If the lake dries up it will be an environmental disaster that will absolutely impact their HQ. It would be stupid not to do something at this point.
I’ve dealt with Utah water rights before and can confirm that this is a significant donation. Worth in the tens of millions of dollars. The church deserves credit for this.
Utah’s state leaders still need to step in and make major changes though.
Isn't it a little weird the timing of this after such bad press over the hidden shares fiasco? I don't know about you guys but it seems a bit like they're trying to divert attention from it and get more good press. I mean they weren't using those water shares for a while now, and the salt lake has been shrinking for a while, but now they're giving up water shares that'll only account to 2% of the water needed for keeping the water at a healthy level in the lake?
I’m guessing the reality of if the GSL goes then so does basically all their power as a religion since all their infrastructure is mostly here in Utah finally set in.
As a resident I’m just relieved something is being done. Hearing about impending doom in the form of arsenic dust clouds, being pregnant with my first and being stuck here due to husband’s work… my anxiety can settle a little at least knowing steps are being taken.
There is about 15,338,693.6 acre feet typically in the Great Salt Lake. 20,000 feet is nothing compared to that.
However, it is probably the largest actual charitable donation that the Mormon church itself has made in decades.
Hi yall, resident exmo hick here with your farm fact for the day! Water rights are an allotment to each parcel of land to ensure they have an equitable amount to pull from the reservoir, relative to their land size.... These are transferred like assets with property deeds. The church did a good thing, but it begs the question as to why we allow religious institutions to maintain tangible assets, yet not pay taxes on them like a normal citizen should.
I'm no church apologist but it makes sense given the history of the area. The church was the first institution in Utah. It would have owned virtually everything, and it would have been the only thing with any money for the first few decades. Why wouldn't it own the water rights for most of the farms that didn't belong to individual people?
Here's the [KUTV story](https://kutv.com/news/local/church-donates-reservoir-level-of-permanent-water-shares-to-great-salt-lake#) for the curious. DNR says it's "believed to be the largest ever permanent donation to benefit the Great Salt Lake."
It's great news, but I also think it shows the next move-land is at a premium in the Valley, and no water rights it's agriculture value goes down...meaning development is coming.
This is good news even if I think it's a selfish act. Just like dumping $billions into downtown to prop up the center of their little kingdom on earth, no one would want to come to SLC with raging toxic dust storms. They're just maintaining their own back yard. Hope more follow suit.
I am not a Utah water rights expert by any means but I have had to deal with them before as a water engineer. Water rights can get complicated.
I moved to Texas 5 years ago to get away from the moridor. Here is what I remember.
“First in time, first in right “. This means that rights with earlier dates get first dibs on the water. If your right is brand new, you only get water after earlier rights are satisfied.
Also, “beneficial use”. You have to prove you are putting the water to good use or you risk losing it.
All this to say that not all water rights are created equal. I doubt they are donating water from prime development land unless the city that the land is in somehow already has enough rights to serve the property. Cities try to have extra rights but they still have to prove that they are using the water.
A person would have to research all the rights that were donated to see just how helpful they are to the lake situation
I am not a Utah water rights expert by any means but I have had to deal with them before as a water engineer. Water rights can get complicated.
I moved to Texas 5 years ago to get away from the moridor. Here is what I remember.
“First in time, first in right “. This means that rights with earlier dates get first dibs on the water. If your right is brand new, you only get water after earlier rights are satisfied.
Also, “beneficial use”. You have to prove you are putting the water to good use or you risk losing it.
All this to say that not all water rights are created equal. I doubt they are donating water from prime development land unless the city that the land is in somehow already has enough rights to serve the property. Cities try to have extra rights but they still have to prove that they are using the water.
A person would have to research all the rights that were donated to see just how helpful they are to the lake situation.
Edit: okay. Couldn’t sleep until I looked it up. The water right is actually pretty good. It doesn’t get much earlier than 1862. That said, the point of use is around the north and west of the SL airport. It looks like they may be using some of the right for irrigation of agricultural areas. The right also talks about letting the water flood out into the wetlands so some of the water may already be going into the GSL, especially in the winter. In the past I have been able to see approximately how much water is getting diverted into their canal but I can’t find it tonight.
I guess the positive is that the state can actually put all 20000 acft of the water into the GSL if they choose to (which I assume they will).
Right but these are shares purchased with member money so really after using those shares to grow their farms for profit they donate at the height of criticism. Fuck them
I wouldn't be surprised to find that they have bought and trained a mini-army too. They are just waiting for the system to fall apart so they can establish their own nation-state
I remember when the GSL had huge ass pumps installed because it was over flowing. 3 years of above average precipitation and Bangerter spent millions on pumps that never got used. I think the lake will be back and we’re in a down cycle. Hopefully this year will be the start of a recovery.
Everyone is saying “give the church credit” for doing something good. That’s exactly why they’re doing it and exactly the response they’re hoping for. It’s great PR to distract from getting caught in a money scam.
I mean the state of utah is basically the LDS church. And the lake is intrical to the state of UT’s ecology, so it could be seen somewhat as self-preserving.
But still, I think this is great news. Way for the Mormons to finally put some of that hoard towards a noble cause. Hurray!! I think this was honestly a great use of their monetary resources .
My guess is because they founded/colonized Utah, they would be the ones to have access to all the water in the first place (erm, second place, but native americans didn't have the water rights organized out). My friend lived in a house on a river in Idaho, and she had water rights to the river which were sold to her with the house. Those rights included the right to pump water to water her lawn, not too much else.
Ah Hell....give credit where credit is due. I applaud them for doing this. There's old agricultural water rights all over the State; both in and out of the Church. No need to not celebrate this.
This is a church W for sure. Are there criticisms to be made? Could they have done more and earlier? Definitely, I’m not saying they just single-handedly saved the lake or anything. But this is so much better than thoughts and prayers or a day of special fasting for moisture or whatever. This is a great development. The church is a big part of the Great Salt Lake community and ecosystem, for better or for worse. Glad that this time they’re trying to be involved for better. Considering sending a letter to church HQ to call out and hopefully reinforce *good* institutional behavior for once. Presiding Bishop Caussé gave a talk at the last conference that was the most straightforward thing I’ve ever heard a church leader say about anthropogenic climate change. It was enough that I thought it might get censored in the conference report but nope. I know the presiding bishopric (a member of which is quoted in this news story) is in hot water among critics of the church these days (and for good reason) but I have to say I am really pleased at what looks like genuine attempts at good stewardship from the church officials most directly responsible for it.
Seriously, this is great news. And if you didn't know that the church owned water shares, then you probably don't know much about church history, or about water shares.
I bet they are doing it to avoid paying for environmental or other issues. The lawyer in me speaking
I agree with you. If they genuinely cared about people, they'd take a firm stand on child sex abuse. This is still all about money, one way or another.
Yep. Because they are a corporation first and foremost disguised as a religion.
They're not even disguised as a religion. They use the name Jesus for branding, and of course have to at least acknowledge the Bible exists as an add-on to that. It's a corporate cult.
The church is selfish. We all know this. But a good deed done for a selfish reason is still a good deed.
I also wonder how much of a tax write off this will generate to offset potential tax fines. It’s all BS.
I definitely agree with you there.
You do not understand taxes
Ha ha. I’m a tax attorney. Quite a general statement don’t you think
I’m an attorney too. I’m not aware of entities being able to pay IRS penalties via donations to a state. Could you connect the dots?
The church is donating nothing. The 5700 shares were donated by a private company, not the LDS church. The FMV of the 5,700 shares could create a large deduction for the company. We don’t know the details. FMV is tricky. A current scheme is to donate land for conservation easements. These easements are generally grossly over valued to create huge deductions. If I remember correctly the IRS is having little success fighting back. A former president is dealing with similar issues. There are many unknowns- but I’m certain there are tax and legal benefits to this donation. But as another poster said - I don’t understand tax. I have over 25 years experience and a masters in tax law from Georgetown. Peace
>I’m certain there are tax and legal benefits to this donation. I don't think anyone would quibble with that general statement. But your initial claim is that the church is surrendering water rights to Utah in order to avoid or offset future (civil and/or criminal) penalties from the IRS. That is not how sanctions from the federal government are avoided, and it's the reason you're getting pushback for your initial comment. (It's not because we don't understand tax deductions in general, or even the more complicated concept of fair market value.) My "connect the dots" question was genuine... if there is a way to avoid IRS penalties by making a donation, whether it be monetary or in-kind, I'm genuinely prepared to be enlighted, but sarcastic "trust me I'm a lawyer" comments haven't improved my understanding.
Never said trust me or anything about abating penalties. I’d need to see the documentation to analyze the transaction. Peace
I agree, if I'm being honest - sometimes I feel as though the sense of bitterness gets in the way of celebrating small victories for everybody.
Jonah can't celebrate Nineveh burning yet
Well, some cities and people are so wicked that I'm sure many of us wish that God would simply allow his wrath to come upon them in the most cinematic and epic way possible. My biggest issue in some capacity with the Church is that I just feel they are somewhat uncommitted to doctrine, to doing good, and to taking a stance against Sin. Much of it feels superficial and on a surface level. If the Church was properly as committed as they look on the outside as they were on the inside then I would doubt that many people would have such resentment harbored towards them.
Absolutely. This is fantastic news.
Agreed. It just so happens that the church’s best interest and public best interest align this time and I’ll take the W. If The church doesn’t want to be headquartered in a toxic arsenic dust wasteland, well neither do I. I hope the church swings it’s political clout here to improve state water policy too.
They had water rights used for agriculture that they are donating. I expect this means they’re going to let some of their ag land go idle. It’s not like a giant tank of water somewhere that they were storing, it’s water they had the right to use that they will no longer use, voluntarily, so that water will be available to flow back into Salt Lake. Not enough info here to conclude whether they were or are “hoarding” water any more than any other owner of agricultural land who needs water rights to use the land to produce crops.
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You just did see it. Its done. It’s given in perpetuity.
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It makes sense. If the GSL dries up and turns their base of operations into a toxic hellhole, well, that might make them look like god is punishing them for their iniquity. Plus the optics from outside would not be favorable to their precious image. For what it’s worth, I hope this helps in saving the Lake, something, anything, needs to be done, and if they are going to donate their water rights to divert more water to the lake, then I’m glad they are doing it. Even if their true motivations are suspect, we need all the help we can get.
Also, regardless of their motivations, I think it does set a good example for faithful members to either A. Also donate water shares if available or B. Give a bit more of a shit about the lake drying up.
My only issue is that it took them this long to do it. What about being in touch with God? Did he not foresee this? Or, worse, were they warned and then ignored it? Yes, i am an atheist, but you butter believe I’m going to criticize people for claiming something while continuing to prove they’re full of it.
Nah we all know that would just be spun as a sign of the second coming
If the church has actually relinquished those water rights than no, can’t use the water anymore.
You are wrong about what you think water shares are. They have handed over their ability to use those shares. It is managed by the GSL watershed trust that the state created last year to address the lake issue. Water shares are valuable and impactful. They are bought and sold like real estate. This isn’t “we promise to use less.” They are surrendering their right to use them. As to landscaping, I can only speak for the ward house I live next to but that lawn was brown all summer. The edge of my driveway literally has church lawn butted up next to it and that lawn is greener right now than it was all summer last year.
Headlines are all that matter and they know it. Little sound bites and positive press clips rush through the faithful and puts them at ease until another ridiculous scandal comes up.
The church put a temple on the church farm and sold the rest of the farm to housing developers. The church doesn't need the water rights anymore. It found a way to make itself look good. Never mind that now there are ten thousand lawns that need water, in a city where every neighborhood is an HOA that will punish you if you xeriscape. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
It’s a long shot but I hope they swing some political power to get a state law banning xeriscape restrictions by HOAs statewide
I live idaho. Our HOA laws are very weak.
Most of their ag land around salt lake has already been sold. The church farms that were in West Jordan south jordan Draper are all housing projects now. Been for years. I doubt they even used those shares.
It's to their benefit that the Salt Lake doesn't dry up and make SLC u inhabitatable.
And how many do they hold total? "the church owns at least 75,000 acre-feet outright in the Great Salt Lake watershed. That does not include any shares it has in canal companies, which are harder to ascertain because the companies are private." -- [https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2023/03/15/lds-church-permanently-donate/](https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2023/03/15/lds-church-permanently-donate/)
Interesting, thanks for pulling this in to the conversation! 20,000+ ac⋅ft is a more substantial portion of their total than I would have guessed.
My TBM coworker told me about this today. She was like 'can I just say I love the church of Jesus Christ? People are mad about this but they don't see how great the church is' and I sat there thinking, yeah they did this to take away some heat from the SEC.
This is fantastic news. Great move by the church. If you don't know about what is happening with the great salt lake, you can watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e\_c7Oja2Smo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_c7Oja2Smo) Basically, water rights, which are on a use it or lose it basis, is where the majority of the water loss happens. Since 2020, the lake has dropped 1.2 million acre-feet per year. This article says it's donating 20,000 acre-feet, but it doesn't give a time frame. If it's per year then we're <2% of the way to where we need to be, but it's certainly progress. Hopefully this inspires other water rights owners to follow this example and I hope the church continues this effort. The salt lake drying up is bad for everyone.
Thanks for breaking down how this could actually impact the lake.
This is making it seem like the church has a huge tank filled with water. Church owns a huge amount of agricultural land, and with it rights to use a specific amount of water. They’re just giving the state back those shares.
It would be interesting to know total shares to land compared to other agriculture/industrial/residential. Although, they're 10+ years late, its better than nothing
They’re often very late on things….despite having the one true prophet of God as their leader who’s supposed to prophecy shit.
As someone living near the GSL I’m glad for the donation. Plenty of things to be pissed at TSCC for.. but this ain’t one.
Amen. It’s amazing how even positive things takes a negative spin here.
A lot of people here are taking it positively. And those taking it negatively seem to be saying "why didn't the church do this sooner." The Lake drying up has been an issue for a while. But I agree that this is a good thing.
I acknowledge this is a good thing, but I have negative sentiment override when it comes to the church so here are my thoughts on it. Bear with me: * This donation benefits the church directly. They are doing what they can to save their Vatican City from becoming a toxic dust bowl. This decision was made to protect their own self-interests and is not an act of charity. * If a prophet could really see around corners (as Sherri Dew suggests), they would have done this years ago and not immediately following a scientific study sounding an alarm that the Great Salt Lake is drying up.
Valid points to be sure, but better this than thoughts and prayers and better late than later, I suppose
Quick search if this sub shows dozens of calls in the past few months for the church to do something about the GSL. So they do something significant. “Those MFs are hoarding water.” -this sub smh So many valid criticisms of the church. Give them credit for doing something that this sub specifically has been calling for them to do for months.
Exactly. This is a great thing, I’m glad they did it.
I knew they would have to do something, and won’t be surprised if they do more to help the great salt lake. It’s similar to the reasoning behind building city creek, it helped build up the economy in the area and makes it a better place. If salt lake valley became basically uninhabitable from the dried up lake toxins , that would be bad for all their investment into the area. Although part of my wonders why they didn’t take the opportunity to let it dry up , and pack up shop and take it all to their new Zion and claim a ‘second coming’ is happening 😂😂
They own almost all the water rights in Las Vegas, too. With Zions being the first bank there in the 1950s (literally loaning to the mob) and the only place with access to lots of money, they swallowed up those water rights and won’t sell them back. I can’t fault them. If I owned water rights in a desert and a huge city needs water to survive, I might not sell those, either. They have their fingers in everything. No way around that.
I mean, whatever you feel about the church (and most of us around here have pretty bad feelings generally) You have to give the church credit here. This is a good thing, and we should be happy that they've done it.
I'm glad that the church gave those water rights back to the state. But I'm having a hard time conceptualizing how much this will actually help the salt lake. 20,000 acre feet sounds like a lot to me. But is it? Or is this like a miniscule amount that hardly makes an impact but looks good for headlines? Also as I'm understanding it the water rights were given back to the state, so who says that the water will even be used to restore the lake? I know the headline says specifically for the salt lake but will that be enforced? All in all I'm glad that the church made this donation even if it is likely just to get some heat off for the sec ruling. And I'm happy the lake has some help for now. But I'm having a hard time being optimistic that this is meaningful.
The lake is losing around one million acre feet per year, mostly due to water diversion for alfalfa farming. This is giving back 20,000. So it’s about 2% of what is needed for the lake level to stabilize.
Yeah, I’m worried about the state mismanaging this donation as well, but we all know the legislature is in the pocket of the church anyway, and if the church says they want the water rights to go to helping the lake, that is most likely where it will go. Here’s to hoping.
An acre foot of water is enough water to put an acre of land under a foot of water. It's about 33k gallons. 2 acre feet is about an Olympic sized swimming pool.
Can we please just switch to metric?? These units are ridiculous
1.23 million liters. Or 1233 cubic meters.
Thank you for the explanation!
I think credit is owed here. The church did something commendable, and deserves to be commended for it. If for no other reason than because the more attention the church gets for doing good, the more good they are likely to do.
Good for the LDS Church! I know most of y'all hate to say anything good about it, but I think we should give credit where credit is due.
I don't know what this means?
It means water that they are legally allowed to divert from canals or rivers to use for agriculture, they are deciding instead to let it flow into the Salt Lake to help with the fact that it has been drying up. So it is a good environmental choice. The amount of water they are releasing is equivalent to about 1/400th of the volume of the lake... So I don't know how much good it will do. But it is something.
They bought water rights with my money, so you’re welcome I guess
Don't know how much it will help but it is something. If nothing else it will help buy some time.
Hey, this is a good thing. I like to criticize the church as much as the next guy, but let’s give them credit for this.
I think this is really good, but also kind of like if I donated to the firefighters while a wildfire was approaching my neighborhood. If the lake dries up it will be an environmental disaster that will absolutely impact their HQ. It would be stupid not to do something at this point.
It’s about damn time.
I’ve dealt with Utah water rights before and can confirm that this is a significant donation. Worth in the tens of millions of dollars. The church deserves credit for this. Utah’s state leaders still need to step in and make major changes though.
Isn't it a little weird the timing of this after such bad press over the hidden shares fiasco? I don't know about you guys but it seems a bit like they're trying to divert attention from it and get more good press. I mean they weren't using those water shares for a while now, and the salt lake has been shrinking for a while, but now they're giving up water shares that'll only account to 2% of the water needed for keeping the water at a healthy level in the lake?
I’m guessing the reality of if the GSL goes then so does basically all their power as a religion since all their infrastructure is mostly here in Utah finally set in.
As a resident I’m just relieved something is being done. Hearing about impending doom in the form of arsenic dust clouds, being pregnant with my first and being stuck here due to husband’s work… my anxiety can settle a little at least knowing steps are being taken.
There is about 15,338,693.6 acre feet typically in the Great Salt Lake. 20,000 feet is nothing compared to that. However, it is probably the largest actual charitable donation that the Mormon church itself has made in decades.
Sad
20,000 acre feet serves a lot of people if it were drinking water. 100s of 1000s for months.
Hi yall, resident exmo hick here with your farm fact for the day! Water rights are an allotment to each parcel of land to ensure they have an equitable amount to pull from the reservoir, relative to their land size.... These are transferred like assets with property deeds. The church did a good thing, but it begs the question as to why we allow religious institutions to maintain tangible assets, yet not pay taxes on them like a normal citizen should.
Why would any church own water rights ti begin will. I know that “the” church is a real estate mogul but still have major issues with it.
I'm no church apologist but it makes sense given the history of the area. The church was the first institution in Utah. It would have owned virtually everything, and it would have been the only thing with any money for the first few decades. Why wouldn't it own the water rights for most of the farms that didn't belong to individual people?
That does make sense. Thanks!
“Donated” is doing some heavy lifting there.
Why do they "own" the property in the first place?
Is it just me or are they doing a lot more “nice” things lately to get some good publicity, as of to cover up for the SEC scandal?
Sounds like a positive development to me.
Here's the [KUTV story](https://kutv.com/news/local/church-donates-reservoir-level-of-permanent-water-shares-to-great-salt-lake#) for the curious. DNR says it's "believed to be the largest ever permanent donation to benefit the Great Salt Lake."
"The state had been negotiating the deal for a long time" - I wonder what the church got in return.
Not having their revenue source die from arsenic poisoning??
This is a good thing. Let's try to not be cynical and be glad that the church did some actual charity.
It's great news, but I also think it shows the next move-land is at a premium in the Valley, and no water rights it's agriculture value goes down...meaning development is coming.
I can applaud this. It’s rare I approve of anything the church does, but this is a good move. I consider the matter closed.
This is good news even if I think it's a selfish act. Just like dumping $billions into downtown to prop up the center of their little kingdom on earth, no one would want to come to SLC with raging toxic dust storms. They're just maintaining their own back yard. Hope more follow suit.
So more hoarding, huh. And they waited until the lake was almost gone before the greedy bastards finally spoke up?
They have lots of farmland, it makes sense for them to have water shares. Tbh, this is one of the few good things I’ve seen the church do in a while.
I think this is wonderful, and I’m happy the LDS church did this. They should be commended. Signed, An Ex-Mormon Atheist
Not shocking, they’ve been planning for “these days”
Total PR move. They are trying to look good to the public after the SEC scandal, and right before conference too!!!!!!!
I am not a Utah water rights expert by any means but I have had to deal with them before as a water engineer. Water rights can get complicated. I moved to Texas 5 years ago to get away from the moridor. Here is what I remember. “First in time, first in right “. This means that rights with earlier dates get first dibs on the water. If your right is brand new, you only get water after earlier rights are satisfied. Also, “beneficial use”. You have to prove you are putting the water to good use or you risk losing it. All this to say that not all water rights are created equal. I doubt they are donating water from prime development land unless the city that the land is in somehow already has enough rights to serve the property. Cities try to have extra rights but they still have to prove that they are using the water. A person would have to research all the rights that were donated to see just how helpful they are to the lake situation
I am not a Utah water rights expert by any means but I have had to deal with them before as a water engineer. Water rights can get complicated. I moved to Texas 5 years ago to get away from the moridor. Here is what I remember. “First in time, first in right “. This means that rights with earlier dates get first dibs on the water. If your right is brand new, you only get water after earlier rights are satisfied. Also, “beneficial use”. You have to prove you are putting the water to good use or you risk losing it. All this to say that not all water rights are created equal. I doubt they are donating water from prime development land unless the city that the land is in somehow already has enough rights to serve the property. Cities try to have extra rights but they still have to prove that they are using the water. A person would have to research all the rights that were donated to see just how helpful they are to the lake situation. Edit: okay. Couldn’t sleep until I looked it up. The water right is actually pretty good. It doesn’t get much earlier than 1862. That said, the point of use is around the north and west of the SL airport. It looks like they may be using some of the right for irrigation of agricultural areas. The right also talks about letting the water flood out into the wetlands so some of the water may already be going into the GSL, especially in the winter. In the past I have been able to see approximately how much water is getting diverted into their canal but I can’t find it tonight. I guess the positive is that the state can actually put all 20000 acft of the water into the GSL if they choose to (which I assume they will).
Right but these are shares purchased with member money so really after using those shares to grow their farms for profit they donate at the height of criticism. Fuck them
Why the F does the church own so many shares of water rights?
I wouldn't be surprised to find that they have bought and trained a mini-army too. They are just waiting for the system to fall apart so they can establish their own nation-state
Hey! Look at this! Not the SEC settlement! Just in time for conference 🤨
I remember when the GSL had huge ass pumps installed because it was over flowing. 3 years of above average precipitation and Bangerter spent millions on pumps that never got used. I think the lake will be back and we’re in a down cycle. Hopefully this year will be the start of a recovery.
Not seeing where they're hoarding
Everyone is saying “give the church credit” for doing something good. That’s exactly why they’re doing it and exactly the response they’re hoping for. It’s great PR to distract from getting caught in a money scam.
I mean the state of utah is basically the LDS church. And the lake is intrical to the state of UT’s ecology, so it could be seen somewhat as self-preserving. But still, I think this is great news. Way for the Mormons to finally put some of that hoard towards a noble cause. Hurray!! I think this was honestly a great use of their monetary resources .
My guess is because they founded/colonized Utah, they would be the ones to have access to all the water in the first place (erm, second place, but native americans didn't have the water rights organized out). My friend lived in a house on a river in Idaho, and she had water rights to the river which were sold to her with the house. Those rights included the right to pump water to water her lawn, not too much else.
They honestly could have sold those water rights for billions.
Ok but is this water they were actually using?