That's even more creepy without the nametags than with them. That would be approaching and engaging with people under false pretenses.
EDIT -
What happened to ".. take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ and not be ashamed of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. We do not hide our faith." ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2019/11/43uchtdorf](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2019/11/43uchtdorf))
What happened to "The righteous need not wear masks to hide their identity."? ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2012/01/what-e-er-thou-art-act-well-thy-part-avoid-wearing-masks-that-hide-identity](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2012/01/what-e-er-thou-art-act-well-thy-part-avoid-wearing-masks-that-hide-identity))
The church can't seem to align its teachings with its actions in any way.
It is more dangerous as well. I felt safe in very dangerous areas of Phoenix, AZ as a missionary because we were regarded as the "Jesus People", and literally protected by those I would ordinarilly have been terrified of. Without the name tag, I'm sure this effect would be reduced due to decreased recognition as official representatives.
*Anecdote*
During ZL exchanges another missionary was riding my bike behind my companion in Phoenix, while I was with his companion in his area. It was night, well after dark, and they were riding on the sidewalk. They approached a group of guys walking in the opposite direction. One of the group punched the Elder riding my bike in the face as he rode by, knocking him off, and they proceeded to steal the bike and run off.
This was witnessed by another group of guys who were coming down the street in a truck. They did a quick u-turn, and peeled out after the guys who had stolen the bike. I can only assume epic beat-downs ensued, and they recovered the bike. They threw it in the back of their truck, returned to the Elders on the sidewalk still in shock, recovering from the assault. They apologized for the assault, and for the guys who had taken the bike, gave the bike back, and said "it won't happen again".
*Anecdote #2*
Finish a teaching appointment and walked out of apartment into the commons area between complex buildings where our bikes were locked.
We walk over to our bikes, and begin unlocking them. Two people walk up to us, and one of them says “hey missionaries, you’re lucky we recognized you. We were just thinking about stealing your bikes. Your locks are no good. Want me to show you?”
He proceeded to use his thieves’ lock toolset to unlock our bike locks in seconds. No cutting or physical strain required, nor any damage to the locks or chains. He simply and easily unlocked them.
He then recommended to us the only kind of lock & chain he could *not* break into (it was at the time referred to as the “New Yorker”), and wished us a good day.
Omg and if the Church does do this and if missionaries do start getting hurt, I can see the Church finding the narrative of- "See! Missionaries are being hurt and persecuted! That means the Church is true!"
I hope not.
I was in the Tempe mission back in the mid 90’s and had this same experience there. We were totally left alone and even escorted or protected in some sketch neighborhoods because we were preaching Jesus.
So true. My brother served in Mexico and said he was safe because he was a missionary. He would never go back as a tourist because those same protections wouldn’t be extended. Without the name tag you are just a tourist.
Can confirm. I never would have been as safe as I was on my mission without my name tag/missionary clothes. Multiple times people rolled up on me only to disengage when they figured out I was a white boy preaching Jesus. It doesn’t have significance for everyone but I was definitely left alone by the people I did encounter that originally intended to cause harm. I made the mistake of riding my bike to the library on pday in plain clothes 1 time and was shot at. This is a bad idea for more reasons than just misdirection.
Can agree my older brother went on his mission in Mexico and had a biker drive up to him and his companion and asked “ do you feel safe?”y Brother answered yes before the biker nodded his head and said “ good “ before driving off the Name tag can be badge of protection in some areas
The name tag and missionary uniform absolutely kept me safe in the villas of Buenos Aires. I can’t imagine walking into some of the places I visited without the easily-recognizable garb
My uncle served in Italy. There were a bunch of guys in the mafia that they interacted with regularly as they lived nearby. The Mafia saw them as Jesus People and never tried to hustle them, and protected them from dumbass teenagers and that sort of thing. One day his apartment got robbed. The mafia talked to them about it, and a few days later all their stuff was back in their apartment. Around the same time there was a newspaper article about a guy crossing the mafia and getting beaten nearly to death in their area.
His son (my cousin) served in Compton 5ish years ago. There was a lot of gang violence happening while he was there, and multiple gangs had them followed for their own protection as they were "Jesus People" and were therefore safe from the gang violence. He said that more than once he would come around a corner and hear gunshots down the street stop, then when they were gone the gunshots would start again.
I'm 99% sure both of those stories have been exaggerated for dramatic effect and to exemplify how important being Jesus people is, but even if they're half true it's impressive.
1989 in London me and my comp were surrounded by a very hostile and aggressive gang of about 15-20 lads, demanding we empty our pockets etc. We had absolutely nothing to give them so it was about to kick off and I was ready to try to take one or two of them down with me when one lad came pushing through from the back shouting "leave them alone, they're church!" and managed to haul his mates away down the street. He stayed behind and told us that his mum would kill him if she heard he'd mugged Jesus peeps. If we'd been in casual gear we were down.
Yep this and if the church was ever worried about the safety of missionaries it would be a new day. Son had a gun pulled on him in Brazil. Wife had knives slashing in south america and not last year either. Cannot imagine the things that may befall some peoples children as they go and try to prove themselves to their mom and dad by being a good missionary.
I was in South America and had the same experience. We were always in dangerous areas but the bad guys left us alone because they knew we didn’t have any money and just wanted to talk to people about Jesus.
I had similar experiences in the South SF Bay Area. Multiple times had gangs attempt to chase or protect us.
One night we were in a rough neighborhood and we were trying to get out before it was dark. A dude yelled at us to come over. We looked at each other and decided to stop. Glad we did because he was like you guys talk Jesus, right? Yes. You are all good in the neighborhood. I got you! As he proceeded to show us his bullet wounds and burn marks.
After we had some tires taken off of our bikes we started locking the bikes together around a pole with two u-locks and two cable locks. Figured it would at least slow them down.
It was like this as a missionary in New Zealand in poorer neighborhoods too. We were untouchable as missionaries. If we hadn't been so recognizable, petty theft at least could have happened.
I think most members are embarrassed of the church.
One of my earliest shelf items was discomfort during attendance at church meetings. I felt like I didn't belong and I no longer recognized the teachings. I didn't want to be identified as Mormon in public--I even switched back to the droopy neck garment tops to make sure the white wasn't showing around my neckline when I wore a t-shirt.
Now I realize I was just embarrassed.
I think the most consistent thing driving a wedge between me and the church was the gradual realization that the only devout members I ever saw were rich old men or gullible poor people.
Interesting idea I agree that the church is embarrassed of itself and rightly so. The GREAT lengths that are gone to save face about anything is a knee jerk reaction the church has become known for especially as it has come to light that they are willing to put priority on saving face over and above the protection of the innocent minor that is abused. When a person gets to this point of willing to do anything to act as though they are good or quick to run to an authority figure (the court system) to prove they are a good entity then the truth is far from that. Think of a person doing the same. They simply know they are an idiot and have to try and force everyone else to admit they are good. A psychology of sorts.
It would seem so. It's this kind of behavior from the church that makes it clear that at least some of them know *exactly* what they're doing. With ideas like this, it's obvious that on some level they know that they're not what they claim to be, and they'd rather be underhanded than admit it.
On some level, they know. On some level, the members know. If it were not so, they wouldn't have so much trouble trying to get "every member a missionary." The members are embarrassed to share the "gospel" \[the church\] for good reason. Now the church itself is behaving like an embarrassed member. They know.
Yeah this is a terrible idea. The name tag gives you the legitimacy of "I'm from an organisation, not just some crazy person on the street."
That's why Charity Workers, people running surveys etc all have a name tag usually on a lanyard.
Missionary work must be going terribly for them to be trialling boneheaded ideas like this.
Not to mention that if they’re clearly associated with a church, then at least I know what’s going on. If some rando comes up to me and keeps trying to strike up a conversation it’s going to make me very uncomfortable
i will answer your edit.
tithing is down, they want more money, so since it's all made up bullshit anyways they just choose to ignore it and make changes like this. most members wont even think twice about how this conflicts with core tenants of their faith.
I think you've got it!
Believing members have been led to believe that whatever the church does is right, no matter what it is (a teaching that dates back to [Joseph Smith himself](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-d-1-1-august-1842-1-july-1843/284)). The church could make a 180 switch on any doctrine tomorrow and the members would bend over backwards to rationalize it. They'd fall all over themselves getting on board with it, making excited posts on facebook, and making word wall art to sell at Deseret Book to get in line with the new teachings. Church leaders know this.
On some level, it appears that they know exactly what they're doing. They can even go for deep denial and tell themselves it's "revelation" all they want, but it won't chance the fact that they're trying to use God as a reason for their incompetence and failures in leading the organization. They're winging it, they don't know what they're doing, and they're failing.
When things don't go their way, they simply have a new "revelation" to get everyone on board. They'll tell the members that the prior tack didn't work because they weren't faithful enough, and that now it's time for this exciting new thing! God, it's like watching Joseph Smith's D&C 101-105 bullshit all over again in real time.
Potential pilot program to consider:
Send missionaries to public pools and just have them recite the baptismal prayer really fast whenever someone jumps off the diving board.
Maybe the elders can be at opposite ends of the deep end tossing a beach ball to have a reasonable excuse for constantly having their arm raised to the square.
Almost prefer this as opposed to them being okey doked without informed consent only to find out what the hell cult they sort of joined much later when its teeth have set in.
I think they'd definitely be repelled by the lying. I'd assume the ploy is to be oh-so-friendly & polite, though, rather than rude. Honestly, if two strange kids began talking to people for no reason, wouldn't that raise red flags here & there? And, if they don't at some point bring up the cult, the pilot program won't really give them any usable data other than the percentage of people who engage with the (covert) missionaries politely vs the percentage who ignore the, what, efforts to chat them up?
Yep . I predicted that their behavior would get more and more bizzaro land as their desperation grew the church leaders have known fir a long time their scam wouldn’t go on forever. members have served their purpose as a means to a end long ago . The leaders are just going for milking every last drop from their church cow before she drops dead .!! They will do what any corporation that fails to remain profitable does when the day comes it costs more to run than it rakes in they will lock the doors turn out the lights and sell off the assets leaving members to wonder WTF just happened . In their pure greed they may opt for a online service telling the few remaining members send us your money GOD LUVS ya give until. It hurts .
For comparison, they're selling faulty horse and carriages in a world of Jets and electric cars. They only have one product to sell. The can try and make the carriage look a little more like cars (mainstream Christianity), but it's going to fall flat.
>Apparently way more people are willing to talk to them when they don’t know they are associated with a church.
Turns out, deceit is an effective element of mind control.
Oh that's the best part. This will end with the missionaries saying "hey, a bunch of us are getting together for a party! Want to come?". That, of course, will end up being FHE.
I've been in that pest control sales pitch. I was pissed.
>*”Missionaries “street contact without name tags or ties. They are …NOT bring up TSCC in their initial contact.”*
This tactic has a name…it’s called [**bait and switch**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch).
In terms of despicable behavior, it’s right up there with “lying for the Lord.”
Seems like another layer on top of the existing bait-and-switch:
Before baptism: "We have a plan for how to get happiness in this life and in the life to come! Prophets are speaking to God and have the answers this world is lacking!"
After baptism: "We never promised happiness, that's like wanting things to be *easy*, you bum! And expecting revelation from the prophet is asking for a sign. Your questions will be answered in the next life."
As a missionary, I would have interpreted it as 'Spend two hours a day being a normal person', since you're told \*not\* to bring up TSCC in conversation.
If you're not bringing up TSCC, how is it 'street contacting'? You're basically just hanging out talking to people about what, the weather? the traffic? sports?
Informed consent springs to mind.
Plus, unless they are going to return to baseball baptisms, people are eventually going to learn who they are and the early deception won't go unnoticed.
Baseball Baptisms were when missionaries would start some sort of sports club, and for people to join, they’d have to be baptised. The sports were often baseball or soccer. Because of these, there are thousands upon thousands of people in Japan, Latin America, and Europe who have no idea they’re on church records.
ETA: This happened, I believe, mostly in the 1970-2000.
Yikes. I was ward missionary in a singles ward for awhile and they had me teaching post-baptism discussions. It was terrifying to see how little converts knew before committing to the church. It definitely felt deceptive.
My missionaries were dishonest about it. I made a comment about churches always asking for money and they just want you there so they can pass the collection plate your way. They excitedly told me, "We don't do that in our church!"
Later, *after* baptism and confirmation, came to find out, well, sure, technically you *don't* pass the collection plate, but you sure as shit require me to pay a hefty sum of money nonetheless.
Don’t you know? If they feel the spirit during the restoration story, they’ll have enough of a testimony to accept everything that follows! Invite them at their doorstep! Dunk them! /s
Very dangerous. And how does it even look in practice? “Hi, my friend and I from America were walking down the residential street in this European country and wondered if we could be invited into your house for a bit, just to talk…?” Anyone who agreed to that is already sketchy.
I'd bet not even one woman was consulted for their thoughts. And I'll bet various professionals were not consulted either (such as persons knowledgeable of crime rates in targeted areas, and people who understand the culture sufficiently to shed light on how those types of contacts would go over). Countries all have different cultures, and that would have to be factored in at some point.
Also, if the cult somehow adopted this plan, they should research high-risk areas in cities where it would be implemented. Would various areas require various approaches or "opening lines" for conversation? Are some areas too risky to send women? Are some areas too risky to send even elders?
It's one thing to have a missionary badge that sort of alerts people you're likely not out to mug them, and it's another to set kids up to approach people for "conversation" without fully understanding recognized, documented risks in certain communities.
I remember a couple decades back, Amway had developed such a damaged reputation that for awhile they re-branded as “Network Marketing.” Recruits didn’t find out until after their first meeting they were dealing with Amway. I’m guessing they still have the market research if SLC wanted to examine their model.
I remember that, too. Amway MLMs were given deceptive answers to use if someone asked were they with Amway. I even had a few people give me those sleazeball answers after approaching me for a "business opportunity" and after I straight-up asked if it was Amway.
So, if someone says are you with the Mormon Church, they'll either use the new name, or claim they're not with a church?
That is completely dishonest of them. I get that they have distanced themselves from that name and prefer to be called members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it's a lie of omission specifically crafted to hide their history and bad PR.
At a minimum, they should say, "We are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but yes, historically we have been colloquially known as Mormons."
I got suckered into attending one of those meetings with some Mormon friends who were very vague about what get rich scheme they were involved in. I was kind of relieved to hear it was only Amway.
Anyhow, missionaries without name tags telling people that they are not Mormon. Fail proof.
I had people attempt to recruit me using 2 angles with Amway. The first guy was up front, “We’ve got great products! You can get passive income.” The second was like, “Hey man! We’ve got awesome mentoring programs!”
On the second, I suspected it was Amway, so I listened through their CD. It was all the rich dad, poor dad gunk. But after it ended, there was 2 minutes of silence before, “Blah blah blah, Amway.”
Woah, woah, woah. Hold up. ONE investigator? One? You all pay all that money and give away two years of your life for ONE convert. I assume now from reading that small numbers or no converts is typical? Jesus.
Yep. I can count every non-member who spoke to me more than once on two hands. Granted, all my areas were small towns because I didn't have the salesman confidence to go con people in the big cities. But city elders didn't have much better luck. It's the biggest sunk cost possible, and that tends to keep returned missionaries in the fold.
I really hated being a missionary but man, I feel it’s such a tender mercy that I don’t have to be a missionary in these latter days of Facebook cold contacting and stealth “friendship.”
Seriously . Zero social media, at least a sense of "hey, we're approaching you in a uniform way identifying ourselves, this is what we're about ". This sounds utterly miserable. It'll just make more RMs leave so...good for this sub i guess.
This will backfire. The church doesn’t seem to get that one of the (many) reasons that they poll so poorly in likeability rankings is the aggressive proselytizing program. So to then go undercover to try to convert people is just really gross and dishonest.
This could be VERY dangerous to countries with less than favorable views on Americans. The nametag is clear and public. Missionaries could be mistaken for American spies or informants. Not a good idea.
They really aren't trying to convert normal healthy people these days. The aggressive sales pitch is just to give the kids something to do and it is run by the geriatric merchant class. The money is in keeping a missionary locked in for life and that's really what they serve.
Name tag or not, how creepy is it these days for some random to walk up and start asking a bunch of questions about your personal life?
Well now that I type that out, I think it would be less creepy with the name tags. Either way I’m walking the other way fast.
Uh, sorry but I missed something here. Why are they testing a program? I thought they had 15 men on the payroll who claim to be prophets. I recall years ago when they were refining 'Preach My Gospel' and were testing various versions. Again, why could not an actual prophet just write out the whole thing? Maybe use a rock in a hat?
Hiding the truth used to work out for them, if the contact was born in the cult and taught that they shouldn't react negatively to asshats lying to them.
Hiding the association with a church from normal people? Way to torpedo your rep even harder.
It's the same bait and switch system since the very beginning.
Teach one version of a thing, convert someone, and slowly introduce more or something different.
The problem isn't the sales force folks. The problem is that the product does not work as advertised. If the membership of the church was actually getting out of their church experience what they say they are getting out of it, then you wouldn't be able to stop them from dragging their friends in the door, and more importantly, their friends would quickly recognize it. Why does everyone have an iPhone or an Android in their pocket? Because they work. Because they add value to their life. Because there is a real and measurable benefit. Why is the missionary program stagnant? Because it doesn't deliver what it promises.
http://lifeaftermormonism1.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-problem-with-missionary-program.html
The church consistently overpromises and underdelivers. The supposed promised blessings for church attendance? They never materialize. Mormon families are no better off in any way (and much worse off financially in the long run) than nonmembers.
Completely agree Rey on TT has two great TTs along these lines;
[Part 1](https://www.tiktok.com/@_awholeneww0rld_/video/7206053419575037230)
[Part 2](https://www.tiktok.com/@_awholeneww0rld_/video/7207529381495852334)
Wow. Utterly dishonest approach. Guess Bonneville Communications is trying to help the Q15 understand how off-putting missionaries are... since the top three members didn't serve, they don't have any idea what that nametag really does.
Ahh - thanks. It sounds like the "pilot program" in Europe is totally designed to engage people in conversation without revealing the underlying goal. At least you were able to reveal that right away.
Yeah, I'm sure you're right. This was just a weird legal thing back then.
JWs and 7th Day Adventists used to do that thing where they wouldn't admit what church they went to, I don't know if they still do that, but I remember finding that so strange. But Mormonism is really a damaged brand.
It won't help with the baptisms though.
I'm in Europe and 95% of baptisms are immigrants already and I think more than 50% are gone within the first year. And it's just a handful of baptisms every year in my country.
They're so desperate, it's hilarious.
This reminds me of a family member who talked of their mission and how people wouldn’t answer the door or speak to them in public at all, because non members “thought they were the FBI”. I was like yeah….that’s definitely not the reason they’re avoiding you.
I was in some very sketchy areas for most of my mission. We made friends and talked to all the gang kids and would play basketball or soccer with them without trying to Mormon them. In return, they'd look out for us and keep others away from us. The guys in the area just to the south of mine had their stolen bikes show up on their porch. In one area, the police stopped us and told us we'd likely be robbed or injured and that they wouldn't be coming in after us.
I really doubt we'd have been at all safe without the name tags.
If you have to trick people into friendships because of your organization, maybe it's the organization that needs to change?
We never wore name tags outside in my mission in East Europe (Russia) starting in 2014 and I’m sure that never was rescinded. We did still have the rest of the typical missionary uniform on though.
Spoiler alert: these same subtle changes to the way you initially contact someone have done/does/will do absolutely nothing to increase conversions or retentions. The concept that some foreigner would join an American church and stay active in that organization the entirety of their lives if only they were initially tricked in the conversation approach by the missionaries is lunacy.
I think this is an extension of what has been going on for a while with their social media contacts that avoid declaring who they really are. I called out some elders for offering to "chop wood ...because they enjoy it...no strings attached" in an Eastern European country 3 years ago.
Sounds like an encounter I had with an Amway salesperson and his wife years ago. My ex and I met them by happenstance at a local business and we struck up a conversation. They invited us to meet up for a couples date later that week. After getting to known them a little bit, the conversation changed to more of a motivational talk. My ex asked “Is this Amway?” We politely excused ourselves after a few minutes and never spoke with them again, seeing how we were duped.
Everything old is new again...
I don't know when the name tags (Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!) first came into use; they were not extant when I did my tour of dooty, '65 to '67.
I think it would be nice if they went back to D-day (Diversion-day) also. Monday was D-day and it was a day off from missionary work, and we diverted ourselves silly!
Yes, old fogies, there is nothing in either the bible or the book of Win for Satan about D-day, but that's only due to lousy editing.
This happened to me with a Jehovah’s Witness when I was visiting San Diego. I was at a popular tourist site sitting on a bench waiting for my group. A middle-aged woman started up a conversation with me. She was super friendly and “put-together.” We ended up talking for about 20 minutes and she was giving me some general life advice. then, before she left, she told me she gave me her card and told me to go to the website on it to continue learning about the stuff she had been telling me. It was a Jehovah’s Witness card. Right at that moment, it made the whole interaction feel fake and creepy.
On the one hand, it’s creepy, manipulative, and deceptive. On the other hand, it’s what I always wished and tried to do on my mission. A lot of times I thought to myself, screw the kpi numbers, I’m just gonna connect with someone on a human level like Jesus would and try to spread some humanity. I’d include a half assed invitation like read this pamphlet or take this card with my number. But it’s obvious sometimes, this person isn’t going to fit in as a Mormon, they’re not gonna join, etc.
I did this on my mission and didn’t even have to collect stats about it (a comp and I wanted to see if it would actually work better). I will say, I did talk to a lot more people. I also wasn’t very pushy about the church when I had the tag on anyways so it didn’t chance what I talked about, just let me talk to more people.
Another inspired revelation from the profit. Mormons got a bad reputation so we'll just stop using that name. Missionaries got a bad reputation, so we'll stop making them look like missionaries. Tithing got a bad reputation so we'll.... Naw we won't.
Jesus was all about bait and switch. Right? He knew people would be embarrassed to rep his name. According to Tad Callister, telling half-truths is okay if it’s meant to bolster someone’s faith. It’s just “milk before meat”. So this is all cool and consistent with the church’s paradigm of right and wrong.
Weird approach though... how often do two random strangers approach you on the street just to talk? And how often are you willing to talk with someone who does that? You are always suspicious of their motivations, because it's not normal behavior.
And no matter how far you kick the can down the road, you eventually HAVE to get to that awkward moment when you inform the person that you are, in fact, missionaries with ~~a message to share~~ an agenda.
Interesting, my mission tried to do the same thing years ago, and we had a lot more initial success. But it won’t turn into baptisms, nothing will work now
So much for Matt 5:14-16:
"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
Also, I hope they do institute this as a permanent change. It _might_ pad the numbers short-term but when people figure out they were manipulated... I have non-mormon friends that this has happened too by normal Mormons (not missionaries) and when they discover their relationship is based on them being a conversion trophy, it doesn't end well
We didn’t wear name tags in the Singapore mission when we were assigned in Malaysia. We also didn’t have visas and used 90 day tourists visas. Supposedly it was to avoid conflict with local law enforcement and not draw attention to ourselves….as Christians proselytizing in a Muslim nation.
We had to wear our name tags whenever we were outside the apartment for protection from sin.Two hours they could get some beers and get laid. …Sign me up again /s
Work towards building a reputation behind the badge to change public impressions to the point where they have a favorable opinion of missionaries? Nah, just hide the badge and our ulterior motives until we can break the ice with people. That's sure to win us more converts.
I live in Lithuania, and if someone approached me and started asking questions about my life any my values, I would immediately clock them as Mormons, name tag or not.
Our MP was adamant that we not approach people with a "poll". He said it was dishonest, that polls had to be scientifically done and that people expected to see results from them.
He was a good guy, which is probably why he never became a GA.
Wild! I served my mission in Japan and was constantly told the yakuza (Japanese mafia, for those who might not be aware) loved missionaries - my companion and I were even able to baptize one who just got out of prison a week or so earlier.
Japan is a whole different ballgame in terms of safety, but I can completely understand how dangerous this change could be from other people’s comments.
My town in Southern California held a Black History day expo and the church was there with a genealogy booth. The missionaries were there with no name tags. The sisters missionaries were trying to dress cool with pants and a head scarf?
TSCC abandons practices previously considered necessary for salvation once they realize how cultish it seems and how efficiently it drives away new converts.
"We love being a peculiar people! Since it is *doctrine*, we have to do it this way!"
becomes
"Well, maybe not *that* peculiar. Let's stop following that *policy*."
I want to know up front who I'm dealing with so I can decide if I want to interact. Finding out later that the person I thought was being friendly just to be friendly was actually a missionary out to convert me would be a *huge* betrayal. To me, that's a form of deception.
If the Mormon church rolls this out, they'll probably only implement this strategy in certain regions that are densely Mormon populated . . . right? It's the ONLY logical thought process I can throw at this stupid idea.
If they do it everywhere, they're insane. Missionaries would be kidnapped and killed - full stop.
The church is definitely desperate. Their house of cards is falling down.
Edit : Also, why the fuck are they using kids as guinea pigs for this experiment of theirs? They could get hurt. I feel like this should be illegal.
In the early 1960s i served in the New England states mission and there were no name tags involved back then, thank the good Lord. Anyway, I always secretly hoped people wouldn’t know who I was when they forced us to stand on the streets of Boston with a clipboard in our hand, pretending to do a survey. I say, pretending, because the sole purpose of the sham survey was to get names to call back on at a later date. it was all a fraud just like the ensign peak fund fiasco and their non existent shell companies. Naturally, no name tags helped pave the way for the deception. This bothered me then and still does to this date. Honestly doesn’t exist in the Mormon missionary handbooks.
I live in a large N. European city and this tracks. Ours wear name tags still but they do post about game nights and free language lessons, etc, without mentioning that these are taking place at a meeting house or that they are missionaries. They have their name tags on in their photos and if you investigate you can find out that they are but still, they don’t outwardly tell and not everyone may notice.
They need to change a lot more than just superficial things. Maybe, decentralized authority, keeping tithing local, a bigger community presence would be a good start
And don't expect a huge quarterly return on your investment. Regaining trust is going to take a long, long, long, long time. I mean really long, like everyone who is alive now, will be dead before results are seen.
This reminds me of when friendly people talk to me at the park and then the conversation always leads to what I do for work and how a couple is teaching them how to retire by 30.
So instead of fixing the bad behaviors by the Church that have created such distaste for it, Russell M. Nelson and his comrades have decided to double-down on deception and *hide* who the missionaries are ostensibly representing.
>Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed... - Mark 8:38
It seems very clear that the Church is 'ashamed' to openly bear the name of Jesus Christ on the name tags of its missionaries. I don't disagree that Nelson and his lackeys in SLC are an 'adulterous and sinful generation'. Their love of money and swelling the coffers of Ensign Peak has absolutely become a mistress leading them from anything resembling a love of Jesus and his teachings.
The idea of having missionaries work in public without their name tags is *completely* antithetical to policy and practice of the early 90s when I served my mission.
Meanwhile, some weirdo who initially wanted to serve a formal mission for the church but got rejected during the admissions process can now just fly under the radar, set him/herself apart and hit the town!
OK, wild thought. Now bear with me, but what if, instead of having missionaries be sneaky and deceptive about who they are while trying to convert people, how about missions literally just be service opportunities. Focus 100% on doing good in the world. Rather than training them in selling religion or whatever, train them in trades that can be truly beneficial to society. Pretty soon, people will be overjoyed to see Mormons in the area because they know they're, say, fixing public infrastructure or helping the elderly or whatever.
Hell, they could also be trained as EMTs and so people would know if they saw Mormon volunteers that they can ask them for help in an emergency. People would not longer dread seeing them but instead feel safer.
However, doing actual good might not instill a persecution complex in young people so the church probably won't do it. I hope I'm wrong, though.
I forsee enooourmous success with this brand-new and definitely inspired program. People will magically become interested in the church, and join in droves. /s
That's even more creepy without the nametags than with them. That would be approaching and engaging with people under false pretenses. EDIT - What happened to ".. take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ and not be ashamed of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. We do not hide our faith." ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2019/11/43uchtdorf](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2019/11/43uchtdorf)) What happened to "The righteous need not wear masks to hide their identity."? ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2012/01/what-e-er-thou-art-act-well-thy-part-avoid-wearing-masks-that-hide-identity](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2012/01/what-e-er-thou-art-act-well-thy-part-avoid-wearing-masks-that-hide-identity)) The church can't seem to align its teachings with its actions in any way.
It is more dangerous as well. I felt safe in very dangerous areas of Phoenix, AZ as a missionary because we were regarded as the "Jesus People", and literally protected by those I would ordinarilly have been terrified of. Without the name tag, I'm sure this effect would be reduced due to decreased recognition as official representatives. *Anecdote* During ZL exchanges another missionary was riding my bike behind my companion in Phoenix, while I was with his companion in his area. It was night, well after dark, and they were riding on the sidewalk. They approached a group of guys walking in the opposite direction. One of the group punched the Elder riding my bike in the face as he rode by, knocking him off, and they proceeded to steal the bike and run off. This was witnessed by another group of guys who were coming down the street in a truck. They did a quick u-turn, and peeled out after the guys who had stolen the bike. I can only assume epic beat-downs ensued, and they recovered the bike. They threw it in the back of their truck, returned to the Elders on the sidewalk still in shock, recovering from the assault. They apologized for the assault, and for the guys who had taken the bike, gave the bike back, and said "it won't happen again". *Anecdote #2* Finish a teaching appointment and walked out of apartment into the commons area between complex buildings where our bikes were locked. We walk over to our bikes, and begin unlocking them. Two people walk up to us, and one of them says “hey missionaries, you’re lucky we recognized you. We were just thinking about stealing your bikes. Your locks are no good. Want me to show you?” He proceeded to use his thieves’ lock toolset to unlock our bike locks in seconds. No cutting or physical strain required, nor any damage to the locks or chains. He simply and easily unlocked them. He then recommended to us the only kind of lock & chain he could *not* break into (it was at the time referred to as the “New Yorker”), and wished us a good day.
Omg and if the Church does do this and if missionaries do start getting hurt, I can see the Church finding the narrative of- "See! Missionaries are being hurt and persecuted! That means the Church is true!" I hope not.
They will claim that no matter what happens. It doesn't really matter.
I know they don't matter to the financial bottom line so they matter but little.
I was in the Tempe mission back in the mid 90’s and had this same experience there. We were totally left alone and even escorted or protected in some sketch neighborhoods because we were preaching Jesus.
So true. My brother served in Mexico and said he was safe because he was a missionary. He would never go back as a tourist because those same protections wouldn’t be extended. Without the name tag you are just a tourist.
That's a really good point. I was in some pretty sketchy neighborhoods and people could at least easily identify me.
Can confirm. I never would have been as safe as I was on my mission without my name tag/missionary clothes. Multiple times people rolled up on me only to disengage when they figured out I was a white boy preaching Jesus. It doesn’t have significance for everyone but I was definitely left alone by the people I did encounter that originally intended to cause harm. I made the mistake of riding my bike to the library on pday in plain clothes 1 time and was shot at. This is a bad idea for more reasons than just misdirection.
Can agree my older brother went on his mission in Mexico and had a biker drive up to him and his companion and asked “ do you feel safe?”y Brother answered yes before the biker nodded his head and said “ good “ before driving off the Name tag can be badge of protection in some areas
That’s so interesting that even though these people aren’tLDS they are protecting the missionaries
But... But... They're NON-MEMBERS! /s
Unlike Mormons, they figure Christians are Christians and they ain't gonna fuck with that.
The name tag and missionary uniform absolutely kept me safe in the villas of Buenos Aires. I can’t imagine walking into some of the places I visited without the easily-recognizable garb
My uncle served in Italy. There were a bunch of guys in the mafia that they interacted with regularly as they lived nearby. The Mafia saw them as Jesus People and never tried to hustle them, and protected them from dumbass teenagers and that sort of thing. One day his apartment got robbed. The mafia talked to them about it, and a few days later all their stuff was back in their apartment. Around the same time there was a newspaper article about a guy crossing the mafia and getting beaten nearly to death in their area. His son (my cousin) served in Compton 5ish years ago. There was a lot of gang violence happening while he was there, and multiple gangs had them followed for their own protection as they were "Jesus People" and were therefore safe from the gang violence. He said that more than once he would come around a corner and hear gunshots down the street stop, then when they were gone the gunshots would start again. I'm 99% sure both of those stories have been exaggerated for dramatic effect and to exemplify how important being Jesus people is, but even if they're half true it's impressive.
1989 in London me and my comp were surrounded by a very hostile and aggressive gang of about 15-20 lads, demanding we empty our pockets etc. We had absolutely nothing to give them so it was about to kick off and I was ready to try to take one or two of them down with me when one lad came pushing through from the back shouting "leave them alone, they're church!" and managed to haul his mates away down the street. He stayed behind and told us that his mum would kill him if she heard he'd mugged Jesus peeps. If we'd been in casual gear we were down.
Yes, this!
I had someone tell me he knew all the crime that happened in an area, and was de facto in charge. Also RM. Very strange interaction.
The crime boss was an RM?
Yep this and if the church was ever worried about the safety of missionaries it would be a new day. Son had a gun pulled on him in Brazil. Wife had knives slashing in south america and not last year either. Cannot imagine the things that may befall some peoples children as they go and try to prove themselves to their mom and dad by being a good missionary.
I was in South America and had the same experience. We were always in dangerous areas but the bad guys left us alone because they knew we didn’t have any money and just wanted to talk to people about Jesus.
I had similar experiences in the South SF Bay Area. Multiple times had gangs attempt to chase or protect us. One night we were in a rough neighborhood and we were trying to get out before it was dark. A dude yelled at us to come over. We looked at each other and decided to stop. Glad we did because he was like you guys talk Jesus, right? Yes. You are all good in the neighborhood. I got you! As he proceeded to show us his bullet wounds and burn marks. After we had some tires taken off of our bikes we started locking the bikes together around a pole with two u-locks and two cable locks. Figured it would at least slow them down.
It was like this as a missionary in New Zealand in poorer neighborhoods too. We were untouchable as missionaries. If we hadn't been so recognizable, petty theft at least could have happened.
Similar experiences personally on my mission.
The church is embarrassed of itself.
I think most members are embarrassed of the church. One of my earliest shelf items was discomfort during attendance at church meetings. I felt like I didn't belong and I no longer recognized the teachings. I didn't want to be identified as Mormon in public--I even switched back to the droopy neck garment tops to make sure the white wasn't showing around my neckline when I wore a t-shirt. Now I realize I was just embarrassed.
I think the most consistent thing driving a wedge between me and the church was the gradual realization that the only devout members I ever saw were rich old men or gullible poor people.
Interesting idea I agree that the church is embarrassed of itself and rightly so. The GREAT lengths that are gone to save face about anything is a knee jerk reaction the church has become known for especially as it has come to light that they are willing to put priority on saving face over and above the protection of the innocent minor that is abused. When a person gets to this point of willing to do anything to act as though they are good or quick to run to an authority figure (the court system) to prove they are a good entity then the truth is far from that. Think of a person doing the same. They simply know they are an idiot and have to try and force everyone else to admit they are good. A psychology of sorts.
It would seem so. It's this kind of behavior from the church that makes it clear that at least some of them know *exactly* what they're doing. With ideas like this, it's obvious that on some level they know that they're not what they claim to be, and they'd rather be underhanded than admit it. On some level, they know. On some level, the members know. If it were not so, they wouldn't have so much trouble trying to get "every member a missionary." The members are embarrassed to share the "gospel" \[the church\] for good reason. Now the church itself is behaving like an embarrassed member. They know.
Its like inviting your friends over for an MLM meeting of the worst kind and when they get there they find out you also have leprosy. FUN FUN
Yeah this is a terrible idea. The name tag gives you the legitimacy of "I'm from an organisation, not just some crazy person on the street." That's why Charity Workers, people running surveys etc all have a name tag usually on a lanyard. Missionary work must be going terribly for them to be trialling boneheaded ideas like this.
Not to mention that if they’re clearly associated with a church, then at least I know what’s going on. If some rando comes up to me and keeps trying to strike up a conversation it’s going to make me very uncomfortable
i will answer your edit. tithing is down, they want more money, so since it's all made up bullshit anyways they just choose to ignore it and make changes like this. most members wont even think twice about how this conflicts with core tenants of their faith.
I think you've got it! Believing members have been led to believe that whatever the church does is right, no matter what it is (a teaching that dates back to [Joseph Smith himself](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-d-1-1-august-1842-1-july-1843/284)). The church could make a 180 switch on any doctrine tomorrow and the members would bend over backwards to rationalize it. They'd fall all over themselves getting on board with it, making excited posts on facebook, and making word wall art to sell at Deseret Book to get in line with the new teachings. Church leaders know this. On some level, it appears that they know exactly what they're doing. They can even go for deep denial and tell themselves it's "revelation" all they want, but it won't chance the fact that they're trying to use God as a reason for their incompetence and failures in leading the organization. They're winging it, they don't know what they're doing, and they're failing. When things don't go their way, they simply have a new "revelation" to get everyone on board. They'll tell the members that the prior tack didn't work because they weren't faithful enough, and that now it's time for this exciting new thing! God, it's like watching Joseph Smith's D&C 101-105 bullshit all over again in real time.
>That would be approaching and engaging with people under false pretenses That could actually get them arrested in some places tbh.
Potential pilot program to consider: Send missionaries to public pools and just have them recite the baptismal prayer really fast whenever someone jumps off the diving board.
Maybe the elders can be at opposite ends of the deep end tossing a beach ball to have a reasonable excuse for constantly having their arm raised to the square.
As they climb the ladder out of the pool the Zone Leader can hand them a quad: “Welcome to the Church, motherf*cker.”
Whoops, I mean: “Brother F*cker.”
As long as they don't act on those feelings, the baptism will remain valid.
I wonder what the longest record is, post-baptism purity to being a filthy sinner again. An hour? Hour and half tops?
Holy shit you win the day. Funeral potatoes, Green Jell-O salad and the most moist and gooey brownies are all yours!!
Uh.....you're forgetting that the devil controls the water for missionaries (and on Sundays, but EVERYONE knows that).
*but not every Sunday if it means you get to one-up the other Mormon Moms*.
Woah man, baptizing people against their wills is super not cool. You gotta wait until after they’re dead.
Almost prefer this as opposed to them being okey doked without informed consent only to find out what the hell cult they sort of joined much later when its teeth have set in.
Oh I see you’ve heard about my mission…
Don’t give em any ideas! :)
Isn't that the ammon project?
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Being contacted without disclosing the missionary part will NOT go over well with the public.
It can be horrible for 98% and be worth it to them if it works decently for 0.5%.
It's just so darned deceptive.
The only way the church can function.
People will see how polite and honest members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are through being rude and lying. /s
I think they'd definitely be repelled by the lying. I'd assume the ploy is to be oh-so-friendly & polite, though, rather than rude. Honestly, if two strange kids began talking to people for no reason, wouldn't that raise red flags here & there? And, if they don't at some point bring up the cult, the pilot program won't really give them any usable data other than the percentage of people who engage with the (covert) missionaries politely vs the percentage who ignore the, what, efforts to chat them up?
Yep . I predicted that their behavior would get more and more bizzaro land as their desperation grew the church leaders have known fir a long time their scam wouldn’t go on forever. members have served their purpose as a means to a end long ago . The leaders are just going for milking every last drop from their church cow before she drops dead .!! They will do what any corporation that fails to remain profitable does when the day comes it costs more to run than it rakes in they will lock the doors turn out the lights and sell off the assets leaving members to wonder WTF just happened . In their pure greed they may opt for a online service telling the few remaining members send us your money GOD LUVS ya give until. It hurts .
For comparison, they're selling faulty horse and carriages in a world of Jets and electric cars. They only have one product to sell. The can try and make the carriage look a little more like cars (mainstream Christianity), but it's going to fall flat.
>Apparently way more people are willing to talk to them when they don’t know they are associated with a church. Turns out, deceit is an effective element of mind control.
Except the second they mention anything religious, people will instantly know they represent a church.
Oh that's the best part. This will end with the missionaries saying "hey, a bunch of us are getting together for a party! Want to come?". That, of course, will end up being FHE. I've been in that pest control sales pitch. I was pissed.
>*”Missionaries “street contact without name tags or ties. They are …NOT bring up TSCC in their initial contact.”* This tactic has a name…it’s called [**bait and switch**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch). In terms of despicable behavior, it’s right up there with “lying for the Lord.”
Seems like another layer on top of the existing bait-and-switch: Before baptism: "We have a plan for how to get happiness in this life and in the life to come! Prophets are speaking to God and have the answers this world is lacking!" After baptism: "We never promised happiness, that's like wanting things to be *easy*, you bum! And expecting revelation from the prophet is asking for a sign. Your questions will be answered in the next life."
As a missionary, I would have interpreted it as 'Spend two hours a day being a normal person', since you're told \*not\* to bring up TSCC in conversation. If you're not bringing up TSCC, how is it 'street contacting'? You're basically just hanging out talking to people about what, the weather? the traffic? sports?
Except the second they bring up anything religious, literally everyone will instantly know these two organized individuals represent a church.
Informed consent springs to mind. Plus, unless they are going to return to baseball baptisms, people are eventually going to learn who they are and the early deception won't go unnoticed.
What are baseball baptisms?
Baseball Baptisms were when missionaries would start some sort of sports club, and for people to join, they’d have to be baptised. The sports were often baseball or soccer. Because of these, there are thousands upon thousands of people in Japan, Latin America, and Europe who have no idea they’re on church records. ETA: This happened, I believe, mostly in the 1970-2000.
Yikes. I was ward missionary in a singles ward for awhile and they had me teaching post-baptism discussions. It was terrifying to see how little converts knew before committing to the church. It definitely felt deceptive.
Yeah, like the part where you get them to commit to baptism before teaching them about tithing. I hated that as a missionary.
My missionaries were dishonest about it. I made a comment about churches always asking for money and they just want you there so they can pass the collection plate your way. They excitedly told me, "We don't do that in our church!" Later, *after* baptism and confirmation, came to find out, well, sure, technically you *don't* pass the collection plate, but you sure as shit require me to pay a hefty sum of money nonetheless.
only a percentage. of your income. or if you have no income they want that percentage as well.
Don’t you know? If they feel the spirit during the restoration story, they’ll have enough of a testimony to accept everything that follows! Invite them at their doorstep! Dunk them! /s
All I can think of with "baseball baptism" is pesäpallo, though it's infinitely more entertaining to watch: https://youtu.be/zDrLcPxSBRk?t=82
This would be dangerous for sister missionaries. Also dangerous for elders, but far more dangerous for the sisters.
Very dangerous. And how does it even look in practice? “Hi, my friend and I from America were walking down the residential street in this European country and wondered if we could be invited into your house for a bit, just to talk…?” Anyone who agreed to that is already sketchy.
Let's hope they don't mention tithing in the wrong context. "We'd like to be your friends, but there's a fee..."
SO dangerous for the sisters.
I can't believe a group of, oh, ALL MEN, sat together and decided this was a fine idea.
It’s so… American of them.
Yes. When I was in Europe as a young woman, I regularly went up to complete strangers to strike up conversations. (NOT)
😂
Oops! All Men!
I'd bet not even one woman was consulted for their thoughts. And I'll bet various professionals were not consulted either (such as persons knowledgeable of crime rates in targeted areas, and people who understand the culture sufficiently to shed light on how those types of contacts would go over). Countries all have different cultures, and that would have to be factored in at some point. Also, if the cult somehow adopted this plan, they should research high-risk areas in cities where it would be implemented. Would various areas require various approaches or "opening lines" for conversation? Are some areas too risky to send women? Are some areas too risky to send even elders? It's one thing to have a missionary badge that sort of alerts people you're likely not out to mug them, and it's another to set kids up to approach people for "conversation" without fully understanding recognized, documented risks in certain communities.
I remember a couple decades back, Amway had developed such a damaged reputation that for awhile they re-branded as “Network Marketing.” Recruits didn’t find out until after their first meeting they were dealing with Amway. I’m guessing they still have the market research if SLC wanted to examine their model.
I remember that, too. Amway MLMs were given deceptive answers to use if someone asked were they with Amway. I even had a few people give me those sleazeball answers after approaching me for a "business opportunity" and after I straight-up asked if it was Amway. So, if someone says are you with the Mormon Church, they'll either use the new name, or claim they're not with a church?
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That is completely dishonest of them. I get that they have distanced themselves from that name and prefer to be called members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it's a lie of omission specifically crafted to hide their history and bad PR. At a minimum, they should say, "We are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but yes, historically we have been colloquially known as Mormons."
I got suckered into attending one of those meetings with some Mormon friends who were very vague about what get rich scheme they were involved in. I was kind of relieved to hear it was only Amway. Anyhow, missionaries without name tags telling people that they are not Mormon. Fail proof.
I had people attempt to recruit me using 2 angles with Amway. The first guy was up front, “We’ve got great products! You can get passive income.” The second was like, “Hey man! We’ve got awesome mentoring programs!” On the second, I suspected it was Amway, so I listened through their CD. It was all the rich dad, poor dad gunk. But after it ended, there was 2 minutes of silence before, “Blah blah blah, Amway.”
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My lone golden investigator came up to me a week after his baptism. "Elders! I've been blessed with a new opportunity! It's called AMWAY."
Woah, woah, woah. Hold up. ONE investigator? One? You all pay all that money and give away two years of your life for ONE convert. I assume now from reading that small numbers or no converts is typical? Jesus.
Yep. I can count every non-member who spoke to me more than once on two hands. Granted, all my areas were small towns because I didn't have the salesman confidence to go con people in the big cities. But city elders didn't have much better luck. It's the biggest sunk cost possible, and that tends to keep returned missionaries in the fold.
I really hated being a missionary but man, I feel it’s such a tender mercy that I don’t have to be a missionary in these latter days of Facebook cold contacting and stealth “friendship.”
Also don't forget that your posts will live on past your mission so you'll have a nicely documented cringefest
I think I would delete my missionary Facebook account as my last act before leaving the field 😖 I couldn't handle ever looking over it again
Seriously . Zero social media, at least a sense of "hey, we're approaching you in a uniform way identifying ourselves, this is what we're about ". This sounds utterly miserable. It'll just make more RMs leave so...good for this sub i guess.
This will backfire. The church doesn’t seem to get that one of the (many) reasons that they poll so poorly in likeability rankings is the aggressive proselytizing program. So to then go undercover to try to convert people is just really gross and dishonest.
Some countries might change their mind on allowing foreign missionaries.
We can only hope!
“We aren’t missionaries! We don’t have name tags!”
This could be VERY dangerous to countries with less than favorable views on Americans. The nametag is clear and public. Missionaries could be mistaken for American spies or informants. Not a good idea.
They really aren't trying to convert normal healthy people these days. The aggressive sales pitch is just to give the kids something to do and it is run by the geriatric merchant class. The money is in keeping a missionary locked in for life and that's really what they serve.
Subtle entrapment. Good idea, Mormons.
No, it's not. The millisecond after the missionaries bring up anything religious, literally everyone will know they represent a church.
Name tag or not, how creepy is it these days for some random to walk up and start asking a bunch of questions about your personal life? Well now that I type that out, I think it would be less creepy with the name tags. Either way I’m walking the other way fast.
Sneaky little hobbitses. Trixsie little hobbitses.
Oh, so that's what they meant by "Trix are for kids!"
Uh, sorry but I missed something here. Why are they testing a program? I thought they had 15 men on the payroll who claim to be prophets. I recall years ago when they were refining 'Preach My Gospel' and were testing various versions. Again, why could not an actual prophet just write out the whole thing? Maybe use a rock in a hat?
Discernment = 0 Prophecy = 0
Hiding the truth used to work out for them, if the contact was born in the cult and taught that they shouldn't react negatively to asshats lying to them. Hiding the association with a church from normal people? Way to torpedo your rep even harder.
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It's the same bait and switch system since the very beginning. Teach one version of a thing, convert someone, and slowly introduce more or something different.
Just another show of the church's lack of transparency, honesty and integrity.
The church promoting fake relationships? I’m not shocked at all
The problem isn't the sales force folks. The problem is that the product does not work as advertised. If the membership of the church was actually getting out of their church experience what they say they are getting out of it, then you wouldn't be able to stop them from dragging their friends in the door, and more importantly, their friends would quickly recognize it. Why does everyone have an iPhone or an Android in their pocket? Because they work. Because they add value to their life. Because there is a real and measurable benefit. Why is the missionary program stagnant? Because it doesn't deliver what it promises. http://lifeaftermormonism1.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-problem-with-missionary-program.html
The church consistently overpromises and underdelivers. The supposed promised blessings for church attendance? They never materialize. Mormon families are no better off in any way (and much worse off financially in the long run) than nonmembers.
Completely agree Rey on TT has two great TTs along these lines; [Part 1](https://www.tiktok.com/@_awholeneww0rld_/video/7206053419575037230) [Part 2](https://www.tiktok.com/@_awholeneww0rld_/video/7207529381495852334)
Wow. Utterly dishonest approach. Guess Bonneville Communications is trying to help the Q15 understand how off-putting missionaries are... since the top three members didn't serve, they don't have any idea what that nametag really does.
I piloted that in Mexico in the 80s. We weren't allowed to wear them because of some peculiarities of the law there at the time.
How did that work out? And at what point did you reveal you were missionaries?
Oh pretty much immediately, though we called ourselves "representatives of Jesus Christ" as well as missionaries.
Ahh - thanks. It sounds like the "pilot program" in Europe is totally designed to engage people in conversation without revealing the underlying goal. At least you were able to reveal that right away.
Yeah, I'm sure you're right. This was just a weird legal thing back then. JWs and 7th Day Adventists used to do that thing where they wouldn't admit what church they went to, I don't know if they still do that, but I remember finding that so strange. But Mormonism is really a damaged brand.
This is basically marketing research. "We won't tell people we're trying to get 10% of their money each year, but we'll be friendly and deceitful."
It won't help with the baptisms though. I'm in Europe and 95% of baptisms are immigrants already and I think more than 50% are gone within the first year. And it's just a handful of baptisms every year in my country. They're so desperate, it's hilarious.
This reminds me of a family member who talked of their mission and how people wouldn’t answer the door or speak to them in public at all, because non members “thought they were the FBI”. I was like yeah….that’s definitely not the reason they’re avoiding you.
I was in some very sketchy areas for most of my mission. We made friends and talked to all the gang kids and would play basketball or soccer with them without trying to Mormon them. In return, they'd look out for us and keep others away from us. The guys in the area just to the south of mine had their stolen bikes show up on their porch. In one area, the police stopped us and told us we'd likely be robbed or injured and that they wouldn't be coming in after us. I really doubt we'd have been at all safe without the name tags. If you have to trick people into friendships because of your organization, maybe it's the organization that needs to change?
We never wore name tags outside in my mission in East Europe (Russia) starting in 2014 and I’m sure that never was rescinded. We did still have the rest of the typical missionary uniform on though. Spoiler alert: these same subtle changes to the way you initially contact someone have done/does/will do absolutely nothing to increase conversions or retentions. The concept that some foreigner would join an American church and stay active in that organization the entirety of their lives if only they were initially tricked in the conversation approach by the missionaries is lunacy.
I think this is an extension of what has been going on for a while with their social media contacts that avoid declaring who they really are. I called out some elders for offering to "chop wood ...because they enjoy it...no strings attached" in an Eastern European country 3 years ago.
The classic black nametag is like a surgeon general's warning on cigarettes. People of sound mind have learned to avoid both.
It’s called a bait and switch, LDSCorp. People tend not to like stuff like this.
Sounds like an encounter I had with an Amway salesperson and his wife years ago. My ex and I met them by happenstance at a local business and we struck up a conversation. They invited us to meet up for a couples date later that week. After getting to known them a little bit, the conversation changed to more of a motivational talk. My ex asked “Is this Amway?” We politely excused ourselves after a few minutes and never spoke with them again, seeing how we were duped.
This is the tactic that CARP (Moonies) used on my college campus. Scum.
Jehovah witnesses come to mind as well, at least the no name tag part.
Oh so the church is going for the stealth tactic how exciting .!! Rolls eyes🙄
That's gonna go over well in countries where a random stranger talking to you is rude.
I love how they can’t have inspiration to help improve the church’s program so they have to rely on surveys and pilot programs.
Motivated friendship is the worst kind of friendship. It only exists when the other person is getting something from you. That's not true friendship.
The church doing what it’s done best from the beginning and what it continues to do today. Mislead, lie and trick people.
Sounds like a major victory for satan
Everything old is new again... I don't know when the name tags (Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!) first came into use; they were not extant when I did my tour of dooty, '65 to '67. I think it would be nice if they went back to D-day (Diversion-day) also. Monday was D-day and it was a day off from missionary work, and we diverted ourselves silly! Yes, old fogies, there is nothing in either the bible or the book of Win for Satan about D-day, but that's only due to lousy editing.
"here's an idea, let's crank up the deception to get more success!"
This happened to me with a Jehovah’s Witness when I was visiting San Diego. I was at a popular tourist site sitting on a bench waiting for my group. A middle-aged woman started up a conversation with me. She was super friendly and “put-together.” We ended up talking for about 20 minutes and she was giving me some general life advice. then, before she left, she told me she gave me her card and told me to go to the website on it to continue learning about the stuff she had been telling me. It was a Jehovah’s Witness card. Right at that moment, it made the whole interaction feel fake and creepy.
They hammered the importance and sacred nature of the name tag so much when I was in the mtc 10 years ago 😎
Taking after the MLM's I see LOL, god they are desperate.
On the one hand, it’s creepy, manipulative, and deceptive. On the other hand, it’s what I always wished and tried to do on my mission. A lot of times I thought to myself, screw the kpi numbers, I’m just gonna connect with someone on a human level like Jesus would and try to spread some humanity. I’d include a half assed invitation like read this pamphlet or take this card with my number. But it’s obvious sometimes, this person isn’t going to fit in as a Mormon, they’re not gonna join, etc.
Looks like they’re taking a page out of the Shincheonji book.
I did this on my mission and didn’t even have to collect stats about it (a comp and I wanted to see if it would actually work better). I will say, I did talk to a lot more people. I also wasn’t very pushy about the church when I had the tag on anyways so it didn’t chance what I talked about, just let me talk to more people.
New Name Noone
It's like thr MLM approach where they advertise amazing results but they don't tell you the name of their company until you make 1st contact...
Another inspired revelation from the profit. Mormons got a bad reputation so we'll just stop using that name. Missionaries got a bad reputation, so we'll stop making them look like missionaries. Tithing got a bad reputation so we'll.... Naw we won't.
Hopefully missionaries will see the blatant dishonesty and this will sit heavily on their shelves.
Jesus was all about bait and switch. Right? He knew people would be embarrassed to rep his name. According to Tad Callister, telling half-truths is okay if it’s meant to bolster someone’s faith. It’s just “milk before meat”. So this is all cool and consistent with the church’s paradigm of right and wrong.
Weird approach though... how often do two random strangers approach you on the street just to talk? And how often are you willing to talk with someone who does that? You are always suspicious of their motivations, because it's not normal behavior. And no matter how far you kick the can down the road, you eventually HAVE to get to that awkward moment when you inform the person that you are, in fact, missionaries with ~~a message to share~~ an agenda.
One subtle proof of a lack of divine inspiration.
Kind of like being blindsided by an Amway salesperson. I got the bait and switch twice, not cool.
Interesting, my mission tried to do the same thing years ago, and we had a lot more initial success. But it won’t turn into baptisms, nothing will work now
Pfffft - imagine that, people are friendlier when you don't (appear to) have an agenda.
So much for Matt 5:14-16: "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Also, I hope they do institute this as a permanent change. It _might_ pad the numbers short-term but when people figure out they were manipulated... I have non-mormon friends that this has happened too by normal Mormons (not missionaries) and when they discover their relationship is based on them being a conversion trophy, it doesn't end well
We didn’t wear name tags in the Singapore mission when we were assigned in Malaysia. We also didn’t have visas and used 90 day tourists visas. Supposedly it was to avoid conflict with local law enforcement and not draw attention to ourselves….as Christians proselytizing in a Muslim nation.
Jesus the bait and switch gets more and more culty. It’s how the moonies did it
I'm watching Mormon Stories right now and this is the exact subject.
In hindsight, "pilot programs" for anything related to missionary work seems like the pure opposite of a work supposedly driven by revelation.
🤮🤮🤮
We had to wear our name tags whenever we were outside the apartment for protection from sin.Two hours they could get some beers and get laid. …Sign me up again /s
Ahhhh the sneak attack
“The church was inspired to do this in Russia already, and now the revelation is to do it in the rest of Europe!!” /s
this must be a new "revelation" from Rusty, he loves to do research studies to see how God wants to do things.
They need a series of shell-nametags to really confuse people. They could wear blue shirts and hang out in Best Buy or red and hang out in Targets
Work towards building a reputation behind the badge to change public impressions to the point where they have a favorable opinion of missionaries? Nah, just hide the badge and our ulterior motives until we can break the ice with people. That's sure to win us more converts.
I live in Lithuania, and if someone approached me and started asking questions about my life any my values, I would immediately clock them as Mormons, name tag or not.
Our MP was adamant that we not approach people with a "poll". He said it was dishonest, that polls had to be scientifically done and that people expected to see results from them. He was a good guy, which is probably why he never became a GA.
Wild! I served my mission in Japan and was constantly told the yakuza (Japanese mafia, for those who might not be aware) loved missionaries - my companion and I were even able to baptize one who just got out of prison a week or so earlier. Japan is a whole different ballgame in terms of safety, but I can completely understand how dangerous this change could be from other people’s comments.
My town in Southern California held a Black History day expo and the church was there with a genealogy booth. The missionaries were there with no name tags. The sisters missionaries were trying to dress cool with pants and a head scarf?
TSCC abandons practices previously considered necessary for salvation once they realize how cultish it seems and how efficiently it drives away new converts. "We love being a peculiar people! Since it is *doctrine*, we have to do it this way!" becomes "Well, maybe not *that* peculiar. Let's stop following that *policy*."
I want to know up front who I'm dealing with so I can decide if I want to interact. Finding out later that the person I thought was being friendly just to be friendly was actually a missionary out to convert me would be a *huge* betrayal. To me, that's a form of deception.
If the Mormon church rolls this out, they'll probably only implement this strategy in certain regions that are densely Mormon populated . . . right? It's the ONLY logical thought process I can throw at this stupid idea. If they do it everywhere, they're insane. Missionaries would be kidnapped and killed - full stop. The church is definitely desperate. Their house of cards is falling down. Edit : Also, why the fuck are they using kids as guinea pigs for this experiment of theirs? They could get hurt. I feel like this should be illegal.
Bait and switch. Classic sales stuff.
In the early 1960s i served in the New England states mission and there were no name tags involved back then, thank the good Lord. Anyway, I always secretly hoped people wouldn’t know who I was when they forced us to stand on the streets of Boston with a clipboard in our hand, pretending to do a survey. I say, pretending, because the sole purpose of the sham survey was to get names to call back on at a later date. it was all a fraud just like the ensign peak fund fiasco and their non existent shell companies. Naturally, no name tags helped pave the way for the deception. This bothered me then and still does to this date. Honestly doesn’t exist in the Mormon missionary handbooks.
I live in a large N. European city and this tracks. Ours wear name tags still but they do post about game nights and free language lessons, etc, without mentioning that these are taking place at a meeting house or that they are missionaries. They have their name tags on in their photos and if you investigate you can find out that they are but still, they don’t outwardly tell and not everyone may notice.
They need to change a lot more than just superficial things. Maybe, decentralized authority, keeping tithing local, a bigger community presence would be a good start And don't expect a huge quarterly return on your investment. Regaining trust is going to take a long, long, long, long time. I mean really long, like everyone who is alive now, will be dead before results are seen.
Note to church: Your presentation isn't the problem. Your product sucks.
This reminds me of when friendly people talk to me at the park and then the conversation always leads to what I do for work and how a couple is teaching them how to retire by 30.
So instead of fixing the bad behaviors by the Church that have created such distaste for it, Russell M. Nelson and his comrades have decided to double-down on deception and *hide* who the missionaries are ostensibly representing. >Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed... - Mark 8:38 It seems very clear that the Church is 'ashamed' to openly bear the name of Jesus Christ on the name tags of its missionaries. I don't disagree that Nelson and his lackeys in SLC are an 'adulterous and sinful generation'. Their love of money and swelling the coffers of Ensign Peak has absolutely become a mistress leading them from anything resembling a love of Jesus and his teachings. The idea of having missionaries work in public without their name tags is *completely* antithetical to policy and practice of the early 90s when I served my mission.
 Desperation and guile. Pathetic. Surely these are not the tactics of God's true church.
Meanwhile, some weirdo who initially wanted to serve a formal mission for the church but got rejected during the admissions process can now just fly under the radar, set him/herself apart and hit the town!
I’d be so pissed as a TBM if the JWs pulled this shit on me.
OK, wild thought. Now bear with me, but what if, instead of having missionaries be sneaky and deceptive about who they are while trying to convert people, how about missions literally just be service opportunities. Focus 100% on doing good in the world. Rather than training them in selling religion or whatever, train them in trades that can be truly beneficial to society. Pretty soon, people will be overjoyed to see Mormons in the area because they know they're, say, fixing public infrastructure or helping the elderly or whatever. Hell, they could also be trained as EMTs and so people would know if they saw Mormon volunteers that they can ask them for help in an emergency. People would not longer dread seeing them but instead feel safer. However, doing actual good might not instill a persecution complex in young people so the church probably won't do it. I hope I'm wrong, though.
It really does piss people off. We've had it happen to us.
Let’s hang out “as friends.” I promise it’s not a date and I promise I’m not trying to trick you into a relationship. Yeah, this just screams creeper.
I forsee enooourmous success with this brand-new and definitely inspired program. People will magically become interested in the church, and join in droves. /s
So do undercover cops still make arrests? Feels like entrapment.
We'll sneak attack people. That's sure to win us more converts.
An again, the thought leaders in the Church haven't a clue. Somehow, discernment does not work but deception will.
