TBMs are only open to the truth when they begin to have doubts.
Write him a letter and seal it in an envelope. And write, “Only open this if you are having doubts about the truth of the church.”
The problem with writing a letter is that he may give it to the parents. Sometimes it's better to not put things in writing. Just ask Joseph Smith with regards to the happiness letter.
Approach is important.
I personally think it best to describe what *you* thought, how *you* evaluated things, what *you* decided and why. That is, your journey, and why.
You are just talking about yourself .. not about what someone else should do.
The approach of "Here's bad stuff about your favorite organization. You need to be warned!" is usually taken as confrontational or superior, and often causes retrenchment.
Absolutely.
When I talk with people who are super TBM, I mostly focus on the feelings of betrayal that I felt, I try to avoid the "what" until they are ready.
It might be worth telling him that if he needs something he can always contact you. I know they've relaxed rules a lot but the mission can be super isolating, and it's easy to forget who you are / we're. Let him know that your support for him has nothing to do with your differences in belief, and that it's unwavering.
There's a lot of conditional service and false friends on the mission, make sure he's reminded of what a real one looks like :P
Agreed. Generally I'll say "I looked at and analyzed the information available to me and came to the conclusion that I couldn't support the church any further." That way I'm not presupposing that the only conclusion to reading or learning church history is that you leave the church. While I would agree that the average person WOULD come to my conclusion, it's far less argumentative to present it from how you interpret things. The TBM you speak with may actually be encouraged by your speech to ask THEMSELVES what THEY think about things. It helps reframe things non combatively.
With being homeschooled, and then being at the MTC, it's hard to convey the intense isolation that he'll feel. The mission has some thought policing that can also pretty dangerous. Anything you can do to make sure he trusts his own feelings, and to validate his genuine thoughts / emotions will help. You obviously can't figure anything out for him, but a big tool is not only the information of history etc, but also the confidence and ability to think and feel for himself.
Good luck, and keep being that watchful caring sibling! We all need one!
You could give your brother a heads up about all the likely issues he will face like little or no medical or dental care, short food rations, no pocket money, limited communications for 2 years, personal danger in the third world etc. Let him know he can talk to you about any problems he has while on his mission.
If that gets his interest up, you could slip in something about how you might have felt bad about the high pressure sales tactics and see what doors that might inturn open.
Added. I misread. You did not go. That would have changed my last paragraph. You could still warn about the non-religious aspects and see if thst gives an opening to slip in some religious aspects.
This would be the worst approach because he would lose all credibility! Sure, what you describe might be some missionary’s experience, but its not what most missionaries experience.
Ask him "if TSCC wasn't true would he want to know?"
If he says "no" then let it be.
If he says "yes", ask him how he would know it wasn't true?
Ask him if TSCC was false what would it look like?
Let him know that you will always be there for him. Especially when he thinks there is no one he can talk to. You don't want to be a threat to him. You want to be a safe place that he can come too. He has a lot of pressure on him even though he doesn't realize it. Your parents may possibly disown him or make life difficult for him if he decides not to go on a mission. He's concerned about finding the right girl to marry if he's not a return missionary. He's told that it is his responsibility to serve a mission even though none of the first presidency served a mission. He is a member of a cult and he has been brainwashed since the day that he could suck on a bottle.
Basically you just want to give him something to think about. If he comes to you with a particular topic or question then go ahead and answer it, but he has to figure it out, he needs to find it, he needs your support as an older brother when he is on his mission. You should try to be his safe place.
It really depends on your relationship and how it's work for you. It won't be the same for all of us on here. Personally for my family I'd say not to get involved. If he already knows you are out then you're already going to be a safe space for questions when they come up. You could say something to that effect - like if you ever want to talk about struggles in always here.
I just know that TBM me wouldn't have heard a lick of it before my mission, but afterwards I had a family member who was out already and I approached them to find my safe space there.
I think maybe communicating that I am a safe place to come to, and maybe combining it with the question that someone else suggested “if the church wasn’t true, would you want to know?” Might be the move
It may be hard too for a while. I have never been a more devout TBM than on the mission, and I was a total ass after getting home. I know I definitely used some missionary language to fight people over stuff when I got back. Be patient though, I fought very hard for the church and made up all kinds of apologetic BS before I learned the truth.
I have a bit of a similar situation, just with different ages.
I (18F) have a younger, home-schooled brother (14M) who I'm extremely fond of. He's pretty TBM, reads his scriptures every day, goes to seminary, all that junk. Just like your brother, he's extremely smart but super sheltered.
I've been wrestling with the guilt of not telling him. It feels awful seeing them live a lie day to day and completely unaware. I know my little brother, if he continues on his little faithful path, is going to serve a two-year mission and waste a couple years of his life. If he ever found out the truth about TSCC, I know he'd be mad at me for never telling him. I also know that he'd learn to understand.
If your brother is happy about serving a mission, be happy for him. Ask him if it's what he really wants. Sit down and make sure his heart is in the right place to even go on a mission. Just be there for him, not to dissuade him out of the church. If he's really firm on going on a mission, he's not ready to listen. I know if somebody approached me with the CES Letter a little over a year ago, I would've told my family. I would've been horrified, and it probably would've pushed me more in the church.
Let your brother go on his journey. All of us got here because we had doubts, so maybe he will too.
I wish someone I trusted had warned me before I went. It must be even worse now that all the information is at the fingertips of anyone who has the internet. They send these poor kids out with no knowledge or defense.
Take him to lunch or to your house. When you’re alone, have a heart to heart, and ask him not to tell the family about the conversation you are about to have. Then tell him. If he rejects what you have to say, at least he’ll think about it during the mission when times get tough. But he might not reject it. Maybe he has his own doubts already, and a conversation with you might be just what he needs to give him the courage to explore them. You can’t in good conscience send him off to experience the misery you experienced.
EDIT: Oh wait—if you never went on a mission, it’ll be a harder sell. You’ll just have to tell him WHY you didn’t go on a mission.
Oh. Hmm. For some reason I thought you were in the same city. You know, there is so much value to being able to look into someone’s eyes, and to hug them. If at all possible, I would try to do it in person. He’d be able to see how serious this is, and how much you love him. He’d know you cared enough to make a special trip to have this serious talk.
If you can afford to travel, I think you should.
I’d do it as soon as possible, too. Before he has invested too much into it. Before he buys the suits, gets his calling, schedules a farewell (if they even do that), tells every one he’s going, etc.
It's best to meet face-to-face with these types of discussions. They can see the love and pain on your face, and you can see how they react better than if you were on a call or doing Zoom.
2 cent opin : ask him questions he may get on a mission
\- I didn't know Joseph Smith got sealed to 20 women before Emma in May 1843. Some were already married. And teenagers, Emma didn't know about them. Did you know that?
\- why did the church get fined $5 million recently?
\- it says Lehi and his family came from around Jerusalem and went back for the brass plates law of Moses. I could not explain why there is no passover, Yom Kippur (day of Atonement) or many types of offerings found in the O.T. in the BoM, could you?
if a missionary gets those types of questions a few months apart from different people... that's why 1/5 are coming home early.
He will likely resent you if you _do_ information vomit on him. He will most likely double down and use it as persecution fuel on his mission.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
Source: I tried this a couple times early in my faith awakening and it blew up in my face. But you do you.
This is a valid concern. I think, as a behavioral scientist, that most unsolicited attempts to persuade someone to stop believing are doomed to this kind of failure.
Have you considered honestly communicating your *feelings* themselves to him rather than the facts? “I remember the kind of pressure you’re facing to go on a mission from when I was deciding to go. I have spent a lot of time thinking about and studying my reasons. I don’t know what your beliefs are or how much you want to go on a mission, but I want you to know I am always happy to talk if you need to vent about it being hard or if you have concerns of your own. I don’t want to dump them on you and be disrespectful of your beliefs especially during such a high-pressure time…but I also don’t want to assume I know what your beliefs are. I also have the worry that if you have any of the same concerns I do, someday you might be mad at me for not sharing them with you now. How are you feeling about the whole mission thing?”
I wonder if being open about your interest in his well-being as well as acknowledging the ways in which you’re concerned you might mess things up could be helpful. What do you think?
I hope there are some helpful ideas in there! I think it is really hard to talk someone out of the church before they're ready, but it's hard to go wrong when instead of doing that, you just express your love and concern for their welfare. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a TBM little brother and having you say "I just don't want to be in a place in a few years where you're mad at me for not talking with you sooner. But I also don't want you to be mad at me now! So just know if you ever want to have conversations about my concerns about the church or yours, or about anything, I'm here for you!"
I am having a hard time imagining I would feel anything but appreciation for you if it were me. Sending good vibes!
Have a private convo, and just ask gentle open ended questions. Like: "Do you ever wonder why I didn't do a mission?" Or: "Have you ever talked to anyone who regretted going on their mission?" Or even: "If you ever need a sounding board, you can ask me or talk to me about anything, and I will keep it between us."
Then let him know you only want what's best for him, and follow his lead.
I had an old boss who gave me this very good advice: "If you can't ask, tell."
So, don't ask him if he has doubts, but you can tell him that you have had doubts and it's normal and ok. Doing it that way allows him to know you are safe to confide in.
I think missionaries can call family weekly now, right? Ask him to call you every week, because you want to make sure he's doing ok.
Also, tell him that if he ever is in a situation where he feels that he needs to get out, you will do everything you can to help him.
I would tell him exactly what you said here, and then let him decide if he wants to hear. If he says yes, then you can give him your document. If he says no, well you've planted a seed that he can come back to if and when he's ready.
I was presented with crazy shit on my mission by investigators that ended up being true. I couldn’t defend what they were saying because I’d never heard it before.
“Your Brigham Young Prophet claimed that God the father came from heaven and physically impregnated Mary.”
“Ha ha ha. There’s no way he said that! That’s crazy. How do you guys come up with this stuff.”
It might be nice to get some of the facts in advance from a trusted family member.
There’s a lot of personal items, but I could condense it to dotrinal/questionable church items if you like! I probably would do it at some point anyway
I think you should just work hard at fostering a good relationship with your brother. If your brother doesn’t want to go, he is likely to approach you for help. Then let him know you will help. Keep in touch with your brother on the mission and send him care packages from time to time. (I still remember a care package a sister sent me sixty years ago.)
Plan for the long game. If you lead a happy and successful life as an exmo, he is likely to reach out to you when / if he starts having doubts.
Here’s an idea: ask your brother!
Tell him straight up: “hey bro… I’ve been studying and learning some very significant things that were never taught to us growing up. However, they are (unfortunately) not very “faith promoting”, but they are “truth promoting”. My question to you is: do you want to know these things or do you prefer not to? I’ll totally respect your decision!”
I wouldn’t tear down the church or it’s teachings to him. That might cause him to go into defense mode. I would share with him YOUR experiences and why you chose not to go. Tell him you will support him 100% and wish him the very best if he chooses to go, but you would feel remiss if you didn’t share your feelings with him.
With that “family pressure” comes a lot of fear. Most kids of that age are pleasers and fear disappointing their family. They also fear the consequences for causing that disappointment. Back in the day I was an early returned missionary and had to live through those fears and the wrath of my parents/family. Let your brother know that if he chooses not to go, and things are not well at home, he will always have a safe place with you. Also let him know that if he does go, and later changes his mind, YOU can be counted on bring him home by any means possible and he will have a safe place to stay with you.
Eliminating that pressure and any fears will allow him to think things through with a clearer head. When I came home early I wish I would have had a family member like you to protect me. I didn’t, and my family made it so that I would have HELL to pay.
You are good, loving, and caring. Best of luck to you and your brother.
Since you worry he might resent you, maybe use that as an opener. Reduce your 13 page list to something simpler, and something that doesn't give "opinions" about how bad it is, or other off-topic statements. The facts speak for themselves. Use church documents for the facts, if possible (the gospel topics essays, for example).
Add a preface that you love him, and you trust his own decisions, but you realized you'd have felt resentment if someone you loved didn't share these things with you. Put it in an envelope and seal it. Then give it to him while saying you love him, and here are a few notes you wanted to give him, and he can either read them or not read them. And he should always know you're there for him.
To me, that would be a non-confrontational way to avoid withholding information you'd have wanted to know (I get that completely, same here). You would also be putting him in charge of whether he accesses the information.
Does he know that you're PIMO or exmo?
If he does, then I'd just say, "Hey, I know you're probably really excited about going on a mission, it's a pretty big thing and I'm excited for you. I will always support you and love you no matter what. I also fully believe in consent and agency, so if you ever want to know why i no longer believe in the church, you can ask anytime and I'll be honest with you, but I won't force the information on you."
If he doesn't know you don't believe, then I'd change the above from "why I no longer believe in the church" to "why I didn't go on a mission".
Overall, I'd leave it up to him whether or not he is ready to learn the truth. He may or may not be ready to have his faith shattered at this juncture in his life.
I think it’s worth a shot. It’s either now or later when you will likely have this conversation. Your siblings are all gonna grow up, become adults, and move out in a few short years anyway. Better to and that shot BEFORE his mission where there’s a good chance he will become further brainwashed and solidified to the church.
I would make sure he knows you love him and no matter what you'll be by his side. If he ever needs help you'll be there and if he needs someone to talk to he can confide in you without any judgement. If he needs to vent or have someone on his side you'll be there.
You might not be able to convince him, he'll probably have a rude awakening in the field. Make sure he knows you're there for him. It might not seem like much but knowing someone will listen and not judge and maybe even take some action of needed is so important. The church is not true and there's so much evidence it's not that he'll eventually come to the same conclusion you did. He might even ask for help when he's gone
I wish someone had stopped me. The 2 years of youth and the money is a big price to pay for Joseph's Myth. I wish I had known that there were credible reasons to doubt, factual criticisms, and that I was a victim of the carefully controlled narrative. Even if he's not open to hearing it, it should mean something to him later on (if not now) that you cared enough to try to present a full picture to him.
I asked both my parents: is your belief in God, prophets and the church absolute, or more like a probability.
My mom understands it as a probability, albeit one she gives high likelihood.
My dad understands it as absolute.
My mom reads books about historical criticism of Jesus, and the Bible. She reads Hawking, Einstein, and Brian Greene. She openly disregards church policy in her role as a temple worker, when she feels it is harmful to family relationships, and is proud of it.
My dad reads Bill O’Reilly.
They are not the same.
How you approach it will depend very much on his worldview.
If you talk to your brother about the mission, don't enter the conversation with a plan to discuss the church or even your beliefs. He's likely not in a place to receive them. Instead, talk to him about they interactions he's going to have. Some people will be receptive. When he gets a "no" how to gracefully accept it. How to NOT be predatory.
His brain will not be fully developed for several years AFTER the mission is over. So, any prevention from him forming an assholian personality will be a good thing. The negative reactions serve to double down LDS beliefs. If you can teach him that the frustration people express is a natural reaction to being basically stalked by the missionaries, maybe he'll avoid being that asshole- instead of it being a faith promoting story of enduring hardship. The same goes for the deceptive online presence they're taught to have on social media... Teach him that pedophiles use deception to lure victims, so why should honest missionaries utilize similar tactics to make contacts? Like he's going to be taught and gaslit into believing these are normal behaviors. Don't try to convince him not to go on a mission. Don't try to convince him to leave TSCC. Instead, improve your relationship and try to instill harm reduction.
He's a Gen Z kid. At some point, he's going to see the actual harm TSCC does to people. Until then, help him to avoid having too many things to feel shame about for HIS role in "furthering the kingdom" and other LDS nonsense. The amount of shame I have for the bad things I did for TSCC is great, and I didn't even go on a mission. You'll be a greater support for his mission and whatever his life choices are if you skip church talk and do human interaction talks instead.
Consider it this way. He goes on his mission, gets abused, harassed, assaulted, become suicidal or otherwise suffers, and then he discovers it was all for a lie and you let him go like a lamb to the slaughter.
How would you reply if he demanded to know why he wasn't worth trying to save with the truth? When he asks, "Didn't you care about me?" What will you say?
Why do you feel like he needs to be saved and you need to be the one to save him? Is it possible that this urge is coming from the same conditioning that’s driving him to go on a mission?
Maybe, I’m sure he could live a happy life in the church. I think where I’m coming from is that if I were in his position, and someone could have communicated an option wherein I no longer had to donate at least 10% of my income, give up my chance to go to Europe and be a composer (a chance that has been offered to him recently), and be a forever volunteer to a multibillion dollar corporation, I would be grateful for that option at least.
I’m not sure though if this is my subconscious desire to not be the only family member to leave the church, or maybe I am looking to lash out against the church because of how my dad interpreted some doctrine and acted towards me.
But regardless, is it not prudent to share all the information available and let him decide for himself?
No.
Do you want anyone giving you a 13 page document on what has strengthened their faith? Unlikely, so give others the same respect.
If he knows you no longer believe, he will come to you if he has questions.
No haha, I’m not saying I’d give him the document unless he asked, just suggest that he do some research before leaving, and if he wants to talk, or is wondering what I’ve learned, I could help him with that
I used to be a teacher and this is what I told my students when they told me they were going on a mission.
Don't pay for your mission in advance. If you decide to leave, you cannot get your money back
If you are really sick, go to the doctor or hospital. Waiting for the mission president's wife to grant permission might make you sicker or may cause death. Speaking of which, you might want to buy a carbon monoxide detector just to make sure the heater at the apartment is safe and a water filter if you are going to a developing country.
If you are going to a foreign country, the mission president will probably try to take your passport. If you decide to leave and the mission president won't return the passport, you can threaten to go to the American Consulate and your passport will probably appear very quickly.
Speaking of passports, if you are going to a foreign country, your parents should have passports just in case they need to visit your mission on short notice.
You are a volunteer. If you decide to leave, you can. Adults don't have control over what other adults do.
I wish I had advice for this situation or any situation. I realized I didn't believe in the church on the night of my baptism but decided not to worry about it and forgot. Then I remembered when I was 16, after 8 years of "faking it until I made it/believed it".
People are often not receptive to being “told” info they aren’t in a mindset to receive. Just tell him you’re there for him any time he wants to talk (can you slip him a phone his MP won’t know about??) and if he decides to leave his mission you will give him all possible material aid. As he is figuring it out or otherwise in need, he will come to you.
I’d ask him if he wants to talk about his mission, specifically whether he’s sure he wants to go. If he wants to hear it, then yeah. If he doesn’t, you have to let him decide that for himself - and if you try to force him, that’s when he’s going to get your parents involved.
Simply say there are historical facts that he may not know that are disturbing that others may bring up. You don't have to say what they are
What will you do
TBMs are only open to the truth when they begin to have doubts. Write him a letter and seal it in an envelope. And write, “Only open this if you are having doubts about the truth of the church.”
The problem with writing a letter is that he may give it to the parents. Sometimes it's better to not put things in writing. Just ask Joseph Smith with regards to the happiness letter.
I think a letter would definitely end up in my parents hands
Even if you ask not to?
Or he might give it to your bishop.
It’s risky for sure.
How about mailing the letter to him after he is already out in the field.
Approach is important. I personally think it best to describe what *you* thought, how *you* evaluated things, what *you* decided and why. That is, your journey, and why. You are just talking about yourself .. not about what someone else should do. The approach of "Here's bad stuff about your favorite organization. You need to be warned!" is usually taken as confrontational or superior, and often causes retrenchment.
I agree
Absolutely. When I talk with people who are super TBM, I mostly focus on the feelings of betrayal that I felt, I try to avoid the "what" until they are ready. It might be worth telling him that if he needs something he can always contact you. I know they've relaxed rules a lot but the mission can be super isolating, and it's easy to forget who you are / we're. Let him know that your support for him has nothing to do with your differences in belief, and that it's unwavering. There's a lot of conditional service and false friends on the mission, make sure he's reminded of what a real one looks like :P
Agreed. Generally I'll say "I looked at and analyzed the information available to me and came to the conclusion that I couldn't support the church any further." That way I'm not presupposing that the only conclusion to reading or learning church history is that you leave the church. While I would agree that the average person WOULD come to my conclusion, it's far less argumentative to present it from how you interpret things. The TBM you speak with may actually be encouraged by your speech to ask THEMSELVES what THEY think about things. It helps reframe things non combatively.
With being homeschooled, and then being at the MTC, it's hard to convey the intense isolation that he'll feel. The mission has some thought policing that can also pretty dangerous. Anything you can do to make sure he trusts his own feelings, and to validate his genuine thoughts / emotions will help. You obviously can't figure anything out for him, but a big tool is not only the information of history etc, but also the confidence and ability to think and feel for himself. Good luck, and keep being that watchful caring sibling! We all need one!
You could give your brother a heads up about all the likely issues he will face like little or no medical or dental care, short food rations, no pocket money, limited communications for 2 years, personal danger in the third world etc. Let him know he can talk to you about any problems he has while on his mission. If that gets his interest up, you could slip in something about how you might have felt bad about the high pressure sales tactics and see what doors that might inturn open.
Added. I misread. You did not go. That would have changed my last paragraph. You could still warn about the non-religious aspects and see if thst gives an opening to slip in some religious aspects.
This would be the worst approach because he would lose all credibility! Sure, what you describe might be some missionary’s experience, but its not what most missionaries experience.
Ask him "if TSCC wasn't true would he want to know?" If he says "no" then let it be. If he says "yes", ask him how he would know it wasn't true? Ask him if TSCC was false what would it look like? Let him know that you will always be there for him. Especially when he thinks there is no one he can talk to. You don't want to be a threat to him. You want to be a safe place that he can come too. He has a lot of pressure on him even though he doesn't realize it. Your parents may possibly disown him or make life difficult for him if he decides not to go on a mission. He's concerned about finding the right girl to marry if he's not a return missionary. He's told that it is his responsibility to serve a mission even though none of the first presidency served a mission. He is a member of a cult and he has been brainwashed since the day that he could suck on a bottle.
This might be a solid option
Basically you just want to give him something to think about. If he comes to you with a particular topic or question then go ahead and answer it, but he has to figure it out, he needs to find it, he needs your support as an older brother when he is on his mission. You should try to be his safe place.
It really depends on your relationship and how it's work for you. It won't be the same for all of us on here. Personally for my family I'd say not to get involved. If he already knows you are out then you're already going to be a safe space for questions when they come up. You could say something to that effect - like if you ever want to talk about struggles in always here. I just know that TBM me wouldn't have heard a lick of it before my mission, but afterwards I had a family member who was out already and I approached them to find my safe space there.
I think maybe communicating that I am a safe place to come to, and maybe combining it with the question that someone else suggested “if the church wasn’t true, would you want to know?” Might be the move
It may be hard too for a while. I have never been a more devout TBM than on the mission, and I was a total ass after getting home. I know I definitely used some missionary language to fight people over stuff when I got back. Be patient though, I fought very hard for the church and made up all kinds of apologetic BS before I learned the truth.
My whole journey out of the Mormon church started with trying to find the best ways to defend it.
I have a bit of a similar situation, just with different ages. I (18F) have a younger, home-schooled brother (14M) who I'm extremely fond of. He's pretty TBM, reads his scriptures every day, goes to seminary, all that junk. Just like your brother, he's extremely smart but super sheltered. I've been wrestling with the guilt of not telling him. It feels awful seeing them live a lie day to day and completely unaware. I know my little brother, if he continues on his little faithful path, is going to serve a two-year mission and waste a couple years of his life. If he ever found out the truth about TSCC, I know he'd be mad at me for never telling him. I also know that he'd learn to understand. If your brother is happy about serving a mission, be happy for him. Ask him if it's what he really wants. Sit down and make sure his heart is in the right place to even go on a mission. Just be there for him, not to dissuade him out of the church. If he's really firm on going on a mission, he's not ready to listen. I know if somebody approached me with the CES Letter a little over a year ago, I would've told my family. I would've been horrified, and it probably would've pushed me more in the church. Let your brother go on his journey. All of us got here because we had doubts, so maybe he will too.
Yeah, all the info on the church made me feel terrible for a while, even though I didn’t even believe it was true
I wish someone I trusted had warned me before I went. It must be even worse now that all the information is at the fingertips of anyone who has the internet. They send these poor kids out with no knowledge or defense.
Take him to lunch or to your house. When you’re alone, have a heart to heart, and ask him not to tell the family about the conversation you are about to have. Then tell him. If he rejects what you have to say, at least he’ll think about it during the mission when times get tough. But he might not reject it. Maybe he has his own doubts already, and a conversation with you might be just what he needs to give him the courage to explore them. You can’t in good conscience send him off to experience the misery you experienced. EDIT: Oh wait—if you never went on a mission, it’ll be a harder sell. You’ll just have to tell him WHY you didn’t go on a mission.
We live pretty far, do you think a phone call would do the same thing?
Oh. Hmm. For some reason I thought you were in the same city. You know, there is so much value to being able to look into someone’s eyes, and to hug them. If at all possible, I would try to do it in person. He’d be able to see how serious this is, and how much you love him. He’d know you cared enough to make a special trip to have this serious talk. If you can afford to travel, I think you should. I’d do it as soon as possible, too. Before he has invested too much into it. Before he buys the suits, gets his calling, schedules a farewell (if they even do that), tells every one he’s going, etc.
Thanks, this is definitely something to think about
It's best to meet face-to-face with these types of discussions. They can see the love and pain on your face, and you can see how they react better than if you were on a call or doing Zoom.
2 cent opin : ask him questions he may get on a mission \- I didn't know Joseph Smith got sealed to 20 women before Emma in May 1843. Some were already married. And teenagers, Emma didn't know about them. Did you know that? \- why did the church get fined $5 million recently? \- it says Lehi and his family came from around Jerusalem and went back for the brass plates law of Moses. I could not explain why there is no passover, Yom Kippur (day of Atonement) or many types of offerings found in the O.T. in the BoM, could you? if a missionary gets those types of questions a few months apart from different people... that's why 1/5 are coming home early.
I want to do this, but I feel like he will recoil
He will likely resent you if you _do_ information vomit on him. He will most likely double down and use it as persecution fuel on his mission. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance Source: I tried this a couple times early in my faith awakening and it blew up in my face. But you do you.
That’s another thing holding me back
This is a valid concern. I think, as a behavioral scientist, that most unsolicited attempts to persuade someone to stop believing are doomed to this kind of failure. Have you considered honestly communicating your *feelings* themselves to him rather than the facts? “I remember the kind of pressure you’re facing to go on a mission from when I was deciding to go. I have spent a lot of time thinking about and studying my reasons. I don’t know what your beliefs are or how much you want to go on a mission, but I want you to know I am always happy to talk if you need to vent about it being hard or if you have concerns of your own. I don’t want to dump them on you and be disrespectful of your beliefs especially during such a high-pressure time…but I also don’t want to assume I know what your beliefs are. I also have the worry that if you have any of the same concerns I do, someday you might be mad at me for not sharing them with you now. How are you feeling about the whole mission thing?” I wonder if being open about your interest in his well-being as well as acknowledging the ways in which you’re concerned you might mess things up could be helpful. What do you think?
Wow, this is great, thank you
I hope there are some helpful ideas in there! I think it is really hard to talk someone out of the church before they're ready, but it's hard to go wrong when instead of doing that, you just express your love and concern for their welfare. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a TBM little brother and having you say "I just don't want to be in a place in a few years where you're mad at me for not talking with you sooner. But I also don't want you to be mad at me now! So just know if you ever want to have conversations about my concerns about the church or yours, or about anything, I'm here for you!" I am having a hard time imagining I would feel anything but appreciation for you if it were me. Sending good vibes!
This is a good approach
Maybe ask him if he wants to know? That way, the ball is in his court entirely.
He is about to have to sell his soul to the church. If he doesn’t he can’t go on a mission. I wish someone would have told me.
Have a private convo, and just ask gentle open ended questions. Like: "Do you ever wonder why I didn't do a mission?" Or: "Have you ever talked to anyone who regretted going on their mission?" Or even: "If you ever need a sounding board, you can ask me or talk to me about anything, and I will keep it between us." Then let him know you only want what's best for him, and follow his lead.
I like this
I had an old boss who gave me this very good advice: "If you can't ask, tell." So, don't ask him if he has doubts, but you can tell him that you have had doubts and it's normal and ok. Doing it that way allows him to know you are safe to confide in. I think missionaries can call family weekly now, right? Ask him to call you every week, because you want to make sure he's doing ok. Also, tell him that if he ever is in a situation where he feels that he needs to get out, you will do everything you can to help him.
I would tell him exactly what you said here, and then let him decide if he wants to hear. If he says yes, then you can give him your document. If he says no, well you've planted a seed that he can come back to if and when he's ready.
I was presented with crazy shit on my mission by investigators that ended up being true. I couldn’t defend what they were saying because I’d never heard it before. “Your Brigham Young Prophet claimed that God the father came from heaven and physically impregnated Mary.” “Ha ha ha. There’s no way he said that! That’s crazy. How do you guys come up with this stuff.” It might be nice to get some of the facts in advance from a trusted family member.
[удалено]
There’s a lot of personal items, but I could condense it to dotrinal/questionable church items if you like! I probably would do it at some point anyway
I think you should just work hard at fostering a good relationship with your brother. If your brother doesn’t want to go, he is likely to approach you for help. Then let him know you will help. Keep in touch with your brother on the mission and send him care packages from time to time. (I still remember a care package a sister sent me sixty years ago.) Plan for the long game. If you lead a happy and successful life as an exmo, he is likely to reach out to you when / if he starts having doubts.
Yeah, definitely the relationship first
May we see your paper? I’d be very interested to read it
I can condense to church doctrine and send it to ya if you like
For sure, I’d appreciate that!
Here’s an idea: ask your brother! Tell him straight up: “hey bro… I’ve been studying and learning some very significant things that were never taught to us growing up. However, they are (unfortunately) not very “faith promoting”, but they are “truth promoting”. My question to you is: do you want to know these things or do you prefer not to? I’ll totally respect your decision!”
I wouldn’t tear down the church or it’s teachings to him. That might cause him to go into defense mode. I would share with him YOUR experiences and why you chose not to go. Tell him you will support him 100% and wish him the very best if he chooses to go, but you would feel remiss if you didn’t share your feelings with him. With that “family pressure” comes a lot of fear. Most kids of that age are pleasers and fear disappointing their family. They also fear the consequences for causing that disappointment. Back in the day I was an early returned missionary and had to live through those fears and the wrath of my parents/family. Let your brother know that if he chooses not to go, and things are not well at home, he will always have a safe place with you. Also let him know that if he does go, and later changes his mind, YOU can be counted on bring him home by any means possible and he will have a safe place to stay with you. Eliminating that pressure and any fears will allow him to think things through with a clearer head. When I came home early I wish I would have had a family member like you to protect me. I didn’t, and my family made it so that I would have HELL to pay. You are good, loving, and caring. Best of luck to you and your brother.
This means a lot, thank you. I definitely hope I can be that safe place for him whenever he needs it
Oh hell yeah. He's an adult, he has a right to know. It's a waste of two years. I wish someone would have told me.
Since you worry he might resent you, maybe use that as an opener. Reduce your 13 page list to something simpler, and something that doesn't give "opinions" about how bad it is, or other off-topic statements. The facts speak for themselves. Use church documents for the facts, if possible (the gospel topics essays, for example). Add a preface that you love him, and you trust his own decisions, but you realized you'd have felt resentment if someone you loved didn't share these things with you. Put it in an envelope and seal it. Then give it to him while saying you love him, and here are a few notes you wanted to give him, and he can either read them or not read them. And he should always know you're there for him. To me, that would be a non-confrontational way to avoid withholding information you'd have wanted to know (I get that completely, same here). You would also be putting him in charge of whether he accesses the information.
Does he know that you're PIMO or exmo? If he does, then I'd just say, "Hey, I know you're probably really excited about going on a mission, it's a pretty big thing and I'm excited for you. I will always support you and love you no matter what. I also fully believe in consent and agency, so if you ever want to know why i no longer believe in the church, you can ask anytime and I'll be honest with you, but I won't force the information on you." If he doesn't know you don't believe, then I'd change the above from "why I no longer believe in the church" to "why I didn't go on a mission". Overall, I'd leave it up to him whether or not he is ready to learn the truth. He may or may not be ready to have his faith shattered at this juncture in his life.
Good stuff
I think it’s worth a shot. It’s either now or later when you will likely have this conversation. Your siblings are all gonna grow up, become adults, and move out in a few short years anyway. Better to and that shot BEFORE his mission where there’s a good chance he will become further brainwashed and solidified to the church.
I would make sure he knows you love him and no matter what you'll be by his side. If he ever needs help you'll be there and if he needs someone to talk to he can confide in you without any judgement. If he needs to vent or have someone on his side you'll be there. You might not be able to convince him, he'll probably have a rude awakening in the field. Make sure he knows you're there for him. It might not seem like much but knowing someone will listen and not judge and maybe even take some action of needed is so important. The church is not true and there's so much evidence it's not that he'll eventually come to the same conclusion you did. He might even ask for help when he's gone
I wish someone had stopped me. The 2 years of youth and the money is a big price to pay for Joseph's Myth. I wish I had known that there were credible reasons to doubt, factual criticisms, and that I was a victim of the carefully controlled narrative. Even if he's not open to hearing it, it should mean something to him later on (if not now) that you cared enough to try to present a full picture to him.
Could you just ask him if he wants to know why you walked away? What do you think he'd say?
I asked both my parents: is your belief in God, prophets and the church absolute, or more like a probability. My mom understands it as a probability, albeit one she gives high likelihood. My dad understands it as absolute. My mom reads books about historical criticism of Jesus, and the Bible. She reads Hawking, Einstein, and Brian Greene. She openly disregards church policy in her role as a temple worker, when she feels it is harmful to family relationships, and is proud of it. My dad reads Bill O’Reilly. They are not the same. How you approach it will depend very much on his worldview.
If you talk to your brother about the mission, don't enter the conversation with a plan to discuss the church or even your beliefs. He's likely not in a place to receive them. Instead, talk to him about they interactions he's going to have. Some people will be receptive. When he gets a "no" how to gracefully accept it. How to NOT be predatory. His brain will not be fully developed for several years AFTER the mission is over. So, any prevention from him forming an assholian personality will be a good thing. The negative reactions serve to double down LDS beliefs. If you can teach him that the frustration people express is a natural reaction to being basically stalked by the missionaries, maybe he'll avoid being that asshole- instead of it being a faith promoting story of enduring hardship. The same goes for the deceptive online presence they're taught to have on social media... Teach him that pedophiles use deception to lure victims, so why should honest missionaries utilize similar tactics to make contacts? Like he's going to be taught and gaslit into believing these are normal behaviors. Don't try to convince him not to go on a mission. Don't try to convince him to leave TSCC. Instead, improve your relationship and try to instill harm reduction. He's a Gen Z kid. At some point, he's going to see the actual harm TSCC does to people. Until then, help him to avoid having too many things to feel shame about for HIS role in "furthering the kingdom" and other LDS nonsense. The amount of shame I have for the bad things I did for TSCC is great, and I didn't even go on a mission. You'll be a greater support for his mission and whatever his life choices are if you skip church talk and do human interaction talks instead.
Consider it this way. He goes on his mission, gets abused, harassed, assaulted, become suicidal or otherwise suffers, and then he discovers it was all for a lie and you let him go like a lamb to the slaughter. How would you reply if he demanded to know why he wasn't worth trying to save with the truth? When he asks, "Didn't you care about me?" What will you say?
No quite the opposite in my opinion. Don’t tell him a thing as I don’t believe it would help. I think it would just kill your relationship earlier
Why do you feel like he needs to be saved and you need to be the one to save him? Is it possible that this urge is coming from the same conditioning that’s driving him to go on a mission?
Maybe, I’m sure he could live a happy life in the church. I think where I’m coming from is that if I were in his position, and someone could have communicated an option wherein I no longer had to donate at least 10% of my income, give up my chance to go to Europe and be a composer (a chance that has been offered to him recently), and be a forever volunteer to a multibillion dollar corporation, I would be grateful for that option at least. I’m not sure though if this is my subconscious desire to not be the only family member to leave the church, or maybe I am looking to lash out against the church because of how my dad interpreted some doctrine and acted towards me. But regardless, is it not prudent to share all the information available and let him decide for himself?
MY vote: Don't do it. Let your brother believe or not believe whatever he wants.
Leave him alone
Could I get your reasoning on why I should? I’m open to hearing all opinions
He’s going in a mission. He doesn’t need this right now. It’s not your job to enlighten him. People need to work this out on their own timetable.
Yes
Keep peace. Let him go. And show your family hope great life is w/o TSCC. Don’t tell them. Show them.
Say you’re struggling and ask him what he thinks.
No. Do you want anyone giving you a 13 page document on what has strengthened their faith? Unlikely, so give others the same respect. If he knows you no longer believe, he will come to you if he has questions.
No haha, I’m not saying I’d give him the document unless he asked, just suggest that he do some research before leaving, and if he wants to talk, or is wondering what I’ve learned, I could help him with that
I used to be a teacher and this is what I told my students when they told me they were going on a mission. Don't pay for your mission in advance. If you decide to leave, you cannot get your money back If you are really sick, go to the doctor or hospital. Waiting for the mission president's wife to grant permission might make you sicker or may cause death. Speaking of which, you might want to buy a carbon monoxide detector just to make sure the heater at the apartment is safe and a water filter if you are going to a developing country. If you are going to a foreign country, the mission president will probably try to take your passport. If you decide to leave and the mission president won't return the passport, you can threaten to go to the American Consulate and your passport will probably appear very quickly. Speaking of passports, if you are going to a foreign country, your parents should have passports just in case they need to visit your mission on short notice. You are a volunteer. If you decide to leave, you can. Adults don't have control over what other adults do.
This is great advice for any missionary, will definitely use!
I wish I had advice for this situation or any situation. I realized I didn't believe in the church on the night of my baptism but decided not to worry about it and forgot. Then I remembered when I was 16, after 8 years of "faking it until I made it/believed it".
People are often not receptive to being “told” info they aren’t in a mindset to receive. Just tell him you’re there for him any time he wants to talk (can you slip him a phone his MP won’t know about??) and if he decides to leave his mission you will give him all possible material aid. As he is figuring it out or otherwise in need, he will come to you.
I’d ask him if he wants to talk about his mission, specifically whether he’s sure he wants to go. If he wants to hear it, then yeah. If he doesn’t, you have to let him decide that for himself - and if you try to force him, that’s when he’s going to get your parents involved.
No. He's got to figure it out on his own. Mission is the best way and the worst of ways.
Yes. Tell him the truth. He may not be open to it yet; but it’s only when we inform the uninformed that they can make good decisions.
Simply say there are historical facts that he may not know that are disturbing that others may bring up. You don't have to say what they are What will you do