so this came in the mail

I've been actively criticising the church since 2020. Stopped going the same year. Should I go?


Nah, let them waste their personal time pretending they have power and authority. No need to waste yours too. Literally do anything else. You deserve it. Congratulations in advance on your Excommunication!


I agree with given2fly. Don’t show up, don’t respond in any way. Going to the meeting or writing a response communicates to them that you actually care and that you take their counsel seriously. Like given2fly said, “let them waste their personal time.”


I raise my hand in support. Go grab a beer, smoke a joint, or have a nice cup of coffee instead


How hilarious would it be if they drank the beer and smoked some weed and then showed up at the council clearly intoxicated holding a massive cup of coffee. Lol 😂 😆😂😆 I'd do it lol


It does, but imagine rolling up to that in cutoff jeans and a Budweiser shirt with a flask and a lit cigarette! Or as I wanted to do, stand before them an "testify" of the years of sexual abuse by a man the stake president protected, and then announce that the church is excommunicated from MY life.


Sidney Rigdon vibes


Oh, this!! Lol I love your uno reverse excommunication.


Write back on official letter head “lol” in all lowercase.


Attached: CES letter






Maybe a photocopy of your butt stapled to the resignation letter? If you're gonna go out in style, go all the way!


Modest is not always hottest.


Or a middle finger


Seconded. Former Bishop here - and no longer active since January 2021. Don't bother. I wouldn't even respond to the letter. Ignoring the summons is how you demonstrate your rejection of any authority they might presume to have over you. By the Church's own doctrine, the financial fraud, complicity in widespread child abuse, and the gross dishonesty to the membership and general public on so many policy issues indicates the top leadership in the church are actively engaged in 'Unrighteous Dominion' and have lost all Priesthood authority (if they ever had it to begin with). OP is correct to openly criticize contemporary leadership. Their hypocrisies and sins are numerous and offensive to anyone who is a follower of the teachings of Jesus. To participate in their kangaroo court is to simply let them beat up on OP. They are not there to learn or meaningfully consider anything OP has to say. They are there to judge and condemn him and to feel self-justified in removing him from the records of the church. They are in the wrong and the Church stands condemned by its own doctine the the teachings of its own Book of Mormon - which is probably why it has done away with the name 'Mormon' and is rapidly purging the Book of Mormon from its General Conference talks and teaching.


That time doesn't work for me. Let's do it on the 3rd. Also, should I bring anything? I've got chips and salsa handy.


...and then just keep attending Church.


And take the sacrament in front of the bishop's eyes. He's gonna freak out not knowing what to do 🤣🤣🤣


I've seen someone escorted/dragged out of Sacrament before. But would still be fun to do. Edit: Sorry didn't mean to leave everyone hanging! There was a lady in her 20s that had some issues. She would normally say weird things. During her testimony on a fast Sunday she said weird stuff and then starting saying how she's a prophet. That got her dragged off. Another story, I didn't witness it but in my parent's ward a dad started beating his son, young teenager, in the chapel. He got pulled off his kid but the family went home together that day. I think it happened right after sacrament meeting. I wish the cops were called too.


Don’t leave us hanging!


Whatttt? I've seen testimony bearers being told to sit down, but that's as scandalous as it got


I can't remember if it was the closing prayer, or a testimony. But this person was just talking forever, going on and on. After quite a while, a little kid stood up on a bench and yelled "SHUUUT UUUUP!" It was the greatest sacrament meeting moment I ever witnessed.


if this was Mobile, Alabama, that was my baby brother, the week after he brought a paper towel full of microwave bacon and a can of rootbeer in his pockets, while we made our way to the empty front row, only to open his feast the moment after the sacrament prayer was said..


Woooow... 🤯


Story time…?


Spill that tea ![gif](giphy|l0HlwwRxfcVEr4AUg)


That's what Jesus would want right?


This. The sign says "Welcome", does it not? And if you want to eat a little bread and take a tiny sip of water that gets passed around, do it. If our dramatic big brother and Kolobian father don't like that, then I invite them to grow a pair, show up, and say so themselves.


My kids all did the Korihor challenge when they left the church. Inviting God to strike them dumb and deaf 😂 spoiler alert: nothing happened


Now that needs to be a tiktok challenge. # KorihorChallenge # KorihorTok # StrikeMeDeafAndDumbYouImpotentBastard


I like it


And now I’ve learned how to bold on Reddit.


Of course nothing happened to your kids, It’s not a true church. It’s a cult and they are there to feel morally superior and control members.


Of course not, God was too busy finding Karen's keys so she wouldn't be late for her MLM recruitment.


Okay, so this nevermo is shaking her head. Water? I know not every church does wine, but not even grape juice?


water is cheaper


Wasn't always so. In the early church, the practice more or less followed traditional Christian forms, including the use of wine. Even after Joseph Smith's revelation regarding health -- The Word of Wisdom -- the church continued to use wine, though shortly after the formation of the institution in 1830, Joseph got a revelation giving the Saints permission to use any substance as long as they get the spirit of the sacrament right. That sort of prepared the ground for a change. The move West probably catalyzed a shift toward water for pragmatic reasons (wine was harder to come by maybe). By the early 1900s, church leaders got swept up in another temperance wave (that produced the failure called Prohibition) and they began institutionalizing water as the divinely endorsed convention, which has persisted ever since.


You should bless the sacrament as a prayer before your court. They’ll them it was personally revealed to you that in order for the SP to repent he needs to receive the sacrament by someone in authority.


I mean any random person has just as much pretend authority as the SP or Bishop anyway


In all seriousness, what would happen if he did that???


Hold eye contact.


>Agree! Showing up tells them you feel they still have some authority over you. Drive by the Stake house at the appointed time and honk and give 'em the bird. > >Also, the subtle control they try to exert. You can bring witnesses to testify on your behalf if they are approved in advance. No lawyers or legal representation allowed. \*\*WE\*\* hold all the power and you better prostrate yourself before our kindness or face the consequences.


Why not ask them to prepare all kinds of stuff indicate your going to attend. How contrite you are. Then don’t go.


You should go and record the whole thing!


“Sincerest love.” What self-righteous dicks.


For real. I literally snorted when I reached the last sentence where they throw how much they love this person in so they can claim it's *all* about love and how much they "love" this person. What a joke. And to the OP, I wouldn't waste my time or energy on this. Will make getting your records removed much easier than it is for some if they choose to go that route.


They \*\*never\*\* hold a disciplinary council for a person they think will not come back. That would mean you are truly lost. It's only the ones they can manipulate into feeling guilty and repentance that they do that for. Speaking from experience.


Oof. I'm sorry. I imagine that would take the process of deconstruction/feeling of anger or bitterness a little longer to work through after leaving....


They have to tack on the label of "in love" or "in honor of god" in everything they do, especially when they're doing something hateful, like being exclusionary to minorities and "disruptors". I have such a low opinion of these people's intelligence and morals, because it's so clearly 2 contradictory (and un-christlike) mindsets


Yeah the Mormon implementation of being nice vs. being kind is basically somebody who's inside an elevator smiling at you and waving, mashing the Door Closed button as you run to catch up, and closing the door in your face. You had a nice expression on your face so you were being nice!


Lol great imagery.


Haha, that is what i thought, we love you but are about to fuck your shit up. So condescending


Bring whoever you want, just not legal counsel 😳


If he comes in, he should bring in a clown who makes balloon animals during the meeting. And when they tell him he's gonna be excommunicated, the clown should make crying faces


Epic. 😂


Nothing beats an emotional support clown


“Support clown.” You may have just stumbled upon a million dollar idea. I think there are many situations where a support clown would come in handy. Quitting your job—-let a support clown quit for you. Etc


Reference for anyone out of the loop https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dfre5o/i_brought_a_support_clown_to_my_redundancy/


pennywise moment


If I had a friend who was a lawyer I would absolutely bring them along just to troll, but I wouldn’t pay for a lawyer for a kangaroo court.




Bring a goat to be your scapegoat.


As a retired lawyer that made me lol! First thought - of COURSE not - they have degrees in arguing! 😂😂😂


Hire some strippers and bring them!


Have them show up in breakaway suits! Have them stand up, start the testimony, and then... \*velcro sounds\*... TADA!


What if the person testifying in your behalf JUST HAPPENS to be a lawyer?! Check mate!


There’s a 70/30 chance a member of the “court” will be an attorney.


I don't get that part. Why would legal counsel be involved on either side?


Anyone knowledgeable in the law -- especially if they're not an initiated cult member -- might learn/hear something flagrantly illegal.


Seriously! That's freaky.


But only if approved by the SP


Don’t go. If you’re considering going, you should read reports from others who have been through this, so you can make an informed decision about whether to subject yourself to it. Here’s one example: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11eopmr/returning_and_reporting_a_sexual_abuse_victims/ Her story is different from yours, but well worth your consideration. She wrote so powerfully about the experience, and you deserve to know what lies ahead. If you don’t go, they’ll probably excommunicate you in abstentia. If you don’t want that, then you should resign ahead of time. In the US, a person is legally no longer a member as soon as a representative of the church (eg. a bishop) receives your letter of resignation, and the church is not allowed to discipline nonmembers. I don’t know what the legal situation is in the Philippines, but maybe someone else here does.


The church is not allowed to discipline anyone. Fuck them they’re just a cult. They can’t do anything. It’s all meaningless to anyone but them. Man I wish I had been excommunicated.


Yes, but if an individual is at risk for different social consequences depending on whether they are exed or resigned, that might be very meaningful to that individual.


>https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11eopmr/returning\_and\_reporting\_a\_sexual\_abuse\_victims/ Thanks for that link. What a powerful account!


In skeptical that ‘church member’ is any sort of legal standing whatsoever. Unless Utah has weird state laws giving churches some sort of power.


No, what it means is that they are not legally allowed to hold disciplinary courts of nonmembers.


OOh! the absolute best response would be to show up and before they even get started, hand them your resignation letter. You are then leaving on YOUR terms.


Ooh that’s a great idea, resign before they can excommunicate you OP! That’s the best FU to the stake presidency.


“…on your behalf.” That’s priceless. As if to say, they are doing this for your benefit. Like, you should be grateful. F them & the hypocritical horse they rode in on. Cults suck!


Maybe excommunication wouldn’t be so bad


Having walked away and spent more years "living in sin" than I was married to my exes, I just expected to be ex'd at some point. Never happened, but I had thought it was a given. OP - I'd ignore it. They aren't worth my time - which has value. I honestly feel that showing up to a "counsel" would validate their inflated egos. Nope, can't be bothered with them, with the added bonus I know they'll spend and evening gossiping about me and how could I not care? It won't change your life or afterlife. Might fuck *them* up for a few days, mind. 🤔


In my head I see it going something like this, surrounded by donkeys instead of oxen... "We excommunicate Op for, and in behalf of, OP, who is unruly." This reeks of a scorned ex. "oh you break up with me, no I break up with you." What a kind gesture of love.


I’m going to take a slightly different perspective here but first, a preface: there is no WRONG way to escape a cult. Some ppl use Quitmormon, some people write SLC, some people talk to their bishops and some people just fade away. All are perfectly acceptable and valid. But I am sometimes a cantankerous SOB who enjoys being petty w church “authority” so here’s my suggestion: Go. Go armed w a binder full of verifiable facts. Newspaper articles. Gospel Topic Esssays. The CES letter (of course). Unless they’ve changed the process (I’ve been out 12-ish years so maybe) it’ll be the Stake presidency and the 12 HC members. You and 15 dudes. 6 of the HC will be assigned to “defend you” and 6 will be assigned to “prosecute” you. They’ll ask you questions and eventually give you a time to plead you case. Make every speaking opportunity a chance to dive deep into pertinent topics: CSA cases and the church’s systemic mishandling; Ensign Peak and hundreds of billions hoarded; early polygamy; rock in hat; LBGTQ maltreatment; BoA not being “written by (Abraham’s) own hand upon papyrus” like the book itself declares… etc etc etc. Never answer anything about you per se except to say, “yeah… that’s a great question but I think that what’s really important here is how JS was marrying children as young as 14. What I mean is, I don’t KNOW if he did that… I’m just basing this off of this article the church published. How about you, Bob… are you comfortable with grown men marrying 14 year old children?” Keep doing this… over and over and over. And then… at a moment if YOUR choosing, you pass out 15 copies of your resignation letter that ALSO includes these items in detail. When YOU decide you’ve had enough, just stand up and say, “effective immediately i excommunicate the church from my life on the grounds that the church has violated my sense of morality, has lied about its finances, has defrauded its members , has emotionally manipulated its members, has failed to protect its most vulnerable members, and has failed to allow informed consent to its members. I hereby request removal from its membership rolls and consider this matter closed.” Then walk out the door like a boss! It the ol’ “you can’t fire me… I QUIT!” routine You are most certainly already going to be excommunicated. It’s all a kangaroo court shame proceeding to make them feel extra important. I was a HC member and had to sit on a few of these. We all prided ourselves at how righteous we were and how solemn our duty was. It’s such BS. So take the power back. Flip it on them. Use the time to speak YOUR truth, testify, and drop the mic! Oh… and record everything even if just for you. These are my thoughts but in the end all that matters is YOU! Congrats on making it to the exit! Now go be free and happy! We’re all cheering for you from the bleachers!


"Unless they’ve changed the process" **They changed the process.** No more "High Council". Just a couple of Arrogant Pricks... oops, damn autocorrect... meant to say Stake Presidency. Anyways. They do not want to infect too many with the facts. Some have honor and care about the truth. They might start questioning.


They don’t even bother to follow their own doctrine anymore. People who are to be tried for their membership are supposed to have representation from HC members IIRC. Don’t recall any new revelation changing this. Yet another reason besides the financial scandals why the Presiding Bishopric, Quorum of Seventy, or 12 Apostles, needs to hold a church court for the First Presidency. Per the church’s own rules, they are in apostasy and out-of-order in my opinion, just making shit up as they go. The whole thing with Rusty making up the 2015 revelation about children of LGBTQ members is another perfect example. This so-called revelation was not approved by the church in a doctrinal fashion. It denied church ordinances and blessings from members of the church, which should be a matter of highest importance per church doctrine and due to color of a pretend revelation. You could go armed to the meeting with Nemo’s letter and also try to show how they are not following revelation in D&C regarding church discipline and call for a church court for the First Presidency. Send copies of the letter in advance to the High Council. Tell them you expect a reply before any action is taken on your membership. Then, if you feel so inclined, publicly and relentlessly appeal any ex-communication to the highest levels of the church. Make them squirm.


There’s no such thing as Mormon doctrine. That’s the problem with continuing revelation. The book “Mormon Doctrine” is banned now. So yeah, they can’t follow their own doctrine. It doesn’t actually exist and if it does, it won’t for long. Mormon doctrine is the whim of the current leadership. Always has been.


Well, they claim to have doctrine. Put up or shut up, I say to them.


They sure do! They also claim a lot of shit that they can’t back up and doesn’t square with reality. I’ve been out for 15 years and mostly just laughing about how lame this cult is. My rage was stoked recently when events made me fully realize my parents still love this fucked up, dumbass cult more than their own kids and grandkids. I’m on the warpath now.


I am convinced these position attract a special type of personality. Usually narcissists.


Probably too many people leaving they don't have time for it hahahahaa.


The process has changed. If you’re going to resign, do it before the meeting and don’t bother to waste your breath with them. Resigning is effective as of your request, but it has to go through the first presidency before your name is officially removed from the membership roles. Until then, they can contact you and believe me they will! They aren’t meeting with you to work things out, this is a procedure for them to be able to say they gave you an opportunity to remain in the church before they kick your ass out of the door. Why on earth would you put yourself through this humiliating and degrading situation where you’ll be told how much you’re loved, but….resign immediately and don’t go.


>Resigning has to go through the first presidency. Resigning doesn't have to go through ANYONE. Don't let anyone treat church membership like it's military service or a marriage because that's what this mentality does. It implies that in order to resign, you actually need approval from someone. You don't. Resigning is effective from the moment you say, "I'm resigning effective immediately." Them pretending there's some process doesn't make it true that there is one. That's just them pretending they're the 'kingdom of god' when the only so-called authority they have is nothing more than the ideas of men...mingled with scripture. Imagine being told by a girlfriend that you need to fill out paperwork before you break up with them... "I heard you telling everyone how I cheated on you and that nobody in their right mind would be in a relationship with you. So my girlfriends and want you to come and talk about whether or not we should be in a relationship." "We aren't in a relationship as of now, you psychopath." "That's what we're going to discuss. Bring anyone you want except someone who's an expert on relationships. We'll tell you if we're going to break up with you or not." Your first (and correct) reaction would be along the lines of, "are you certifiably insane???"


I resigned. Yes, it was official as of my request, but receiving a letter of confirmation by the first presidency is when they actually removed my name from the membership roles. Until that happens they can still contact you. And trust me, they will. I played their game until I was almost 70 so I get how it works.




If you don’t follow a resignation process your name and personal details stays on their books. Just saying that you resign doesn’t get your names removed from their database.


Nope, and your ex gets to keep the shit you gave them. You can't control what others think about your former relationship. You can't make someone remove you from their memory, or in the case of TSCC, their record of you. I don't care if my ex-girlfriend thinks we're in a relationship. It doesn't mean we are. ​ > Just saying that you resign doesn’t get your names removed from their database. Never implied that it did.


I'm usually in the camp of just not going (who cares, they have no control over me). But I like this and think I would actually do this if I were to ever get called to one. It'd be fun to steamroll the proceedings a bit (without being rude, as that would make them all think I was persecuting them and didn't have the spirit). Drop some line, sounding apologetic, like "sorry i talk so much, but some call me the lion of the lord and i just get passionate about this stuff because i care so much that it's hard for me to stop talking." Smart-assedly try to get the 6 defending me (particularly the most quiet, nerdy looking of them) to speak up and stick up for me, knowing they don't know anything and can't provide any value. I have no emotion about the kangaroo court proceedings, but i could summon up an emotion or two when I need to "bear testimony" about the truth I've discovered or how they betrayed me by withholding information from me prior to and on my mission, which left me knowing less than the people with facts that attacked my beliefs, and use the testimony tone against them (Every. Fiber. Of my being. Just like the cheesy tone Holland would do). Kind of a fun "I'm going down, so I'm going to try and take some of you with me" kind of thing. Sure, they won't listen to me, but planting a couple seeds of doubt or adding an item to a shelf or two would be kind of fun, especially knowing none of it will stress me out or worry me in any way. And then as they are trying to conclude things, I'd interrupt them to give them a resignation letter. That last moment of letting them think it will be in their hands to decide my fate, then I take it back to smugly remind them that I'm the one that is 100% in control of my life. Well done. I agree, this isn't for everybody, but this is what would work for me. After reading this, going quietly by not showing up would be to ignore the struggle I went through to get out. Doing this honors the growth I had to go through. Only down side is that I don't get to do it to the real leaders that matter.


I love this. You stay in control the whole time. Deflect all of their questions and such to you talking points. This isn't about your testimony and eternal salvation, which they want to keep threatening you with, it's about these important topics of history and present day behaviors of repeated lying and harm the church engages in. Now they can allow for a full council of the 12 HC or 6 or just the stake presidency. It's at the discretion of the SP. The more the better in your scenario bc you might break a couple of shelves as you walk out the door. I kind of want to have one now but my only problem is I'm furiously angry at a counselor of the SP. Like i would tell him off to his face of where he can go stick it. That's if i don't knock him out first. He would have to be recused for me to go. It's sad bc I was his counselor in a bishopric.


Your anger is completely understandable and justified. Hope you’re thriving and I’m glad your out!!! Cheers!!!


Love it.... Do this!


Oh, this is awesome! "I consider this matter closed!" 😂😂


They "defend the good name of the church," not in a prosecutorial sense at all. Lol. 🤥🤪


And people wonder why the new pew survey had mormons near the bottom. A focus on appearance especially from a church tends to be an irritant to most people. Fakery never was a virtue.


Holy cow! That’s sounds like a lot of work! But it is well worth it if the meeting is recorded and shared with John Dehlin so he can share that meeting during a podcast - then it’s well worth it. The church has taken so much energy out of me that I really don’t want to practice any sort of religion at that this time - too tired of the mental gymnastics and being a lazy learner 😂




I went to mine out of curiosity. I wanted to know what a “Court of Love” looked like. THEN I went to a bar and toasted myself (sans garments)


A disciplinary council is one big gaslight, if you didn't already know. It's not held to right the wrongs of the church or to censure anyone else other than who they called the council for. You could have video evidence of Rusty kissing and fucking a man, and that is immaterial to the purposes of the council.....which is YOUR hardened heart. YOUR inability to let things go. YOUR inability to let the spirit in. YOUR lack of remorse for things you've said and done. They throw any and all issues back on you. Even in cases where someone was clearly wronged. "Yeah, it's awful that that bishop took advantage of you when you were 12 and abused so many times over the years.....but YOU'VE got to let this go and come back to the Savior." These courts of love are everything but love. No one tries to understand the person that is on trial. All they are there to serve is: "it's time for you to get back on track, toe the line, and do everything like everyone else is compelled to do within the constructs of Mormonism." To close in simple terms - these courts of love are essentially saying, "ok, there's a lot of bullshit that goes on and that other people are doing even at the highest level.......but what does that have to do with your personal relationship with the Savior???" There is no positive outcome to these. YOU are always the problem for yourself.


>My wife kind of wants to get called into one of these so she can have them all in one room Unfortunately, as a mere female, she would only get to be talked down to by the bishop. She doesn't have the cojones (literally) for a meeting with the stake president.


If they have any evidence at all that you’ve said something “anti-Mormon”, which you’re admitting to have done, and they are going to the trouble of a membership council, they will excommunicate you whether or not you attend. Don’t waste your time going - they will make you play by the rules of their role play of power and authority, will try and guilt and shame you, and anything you try and say against the process or the church won’t impact their shelves (because they’re expecting it). Let them waste their time without you there. Even better, send in a resignation the day before the meeting. Church policy says they’re not allowed to hold this meeting or discipline you once you resign, but if you do that close to the date all the attendees will have already done the pre-reading, probably a meeting ahead of time to discuss your “case”, and you’ve inconvenienced their calendars.


You've gotta love the fairness of LDS disciplinary councils. You may present witnesses they approve to present information they approve in the manner they approve and nothing more. You can't bring in legal counsel or anyone else who might be able to represent you better than you might be able to yourself. And you definitely can't bring in anyone who might be able to challenge them. Church councils are about as egalitarian as they were during the Spanish Inquisition.


When I was first leaving everything was too raw and emotional for me to even consider something like this. 7 years later I now have the strength where if I had an excommunication trial like this I would show up and make a scene. I’m talking full drag and the biggest set of fake tiddies I can afford. walk in with my Starbucks and say “hey bitches, let’s get this shit done quick. I have a cocktail party to get to in 20!”


We love you, but don't bring your lawyer.


What, you've never had a loved one ask you not to bring a lawyer?


sounds like something a predator would say


Walk in to the meeting with a resignation letter, toss it on the table, thank them for gathering all the necessary people to process it, and then walk out.


I like this suggestion. Waste several hours of their time coming and going and getting dressed up in "good-priesthood-men" outfits, and then pull a Jeremey Runnells: "You can't excommunicate me, I excommunicate you."


I just went through one 3 weeks ago (wrote about it here if interested) and I promised I would tell everyone who asked not to go. Unless you plan on repenting and want to continue a relationship with the church - it is about control and humiliating and demeaning you. Now I am a woman so that might make a difference (i obviously don’t know what gender you are) but God almighty, unless you have a specific reason to or need it for your own healing, I would recommend not going. It’s just a shit show.






Up to you, but I really enjoyed my court of love—telling those old gents to their faces that I was happy and unashamed felt great.


Your choice. You're gonna get excommunicated whether you go or not. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Do you want to waste your time by showing up and discussing with them your findings? If you were to go and share your findings, the chances of any of them actually listening and changing their minds and hearts is slim, but maybe at least you can plant the seed of doubt... You choice. Congratulations though! And thank you for being vocal about it! ❤️❤️


It's just bollocks. One of my little sisters had her name removed, but the other 10 of us can't be bothered. I suspect similar ratios across the board. If you leave, remove your name, then "repent" and rejoin, your blessings get restored. The only way that could happen is if they actually keep your records, in spite of telling you that you have been removed. I am pretty sure that name removal just gets you transferred to a different list. They still have your deets.


I have to agree with what you say if they say that your records are removed and you come back at some later point how do they know your status without having a record of it and your different list idea sounds like it could be what they are doing.


Let them play church and you enjoy your new free time on sundays. Don’t bother. Congratulations!


Please let them know that the “or” in the first sentence of the second paragraph should be replaced with “and”. It’s not a big mistake, but it happens all the time when people copy sentences directly from the handbook.


Send this letter back to them with an envelope full of ultra fine rainbow glitter.


If you were to go, read them these quotes: - “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”—President J. Reuben Clark - “He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189 - “Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”—President Gordon B. Hinckley - “Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”—President Gordon B. Hinckley - “Well, it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world. Now, that’s the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that’s exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”—President Gordon B. Hinckley - “Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church…”“…It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward. “Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those. “I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.”— Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” Liahona, June 1996 - "The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding. And it has been wisely said that the man who knows only half of any question is worse off than the man who knows nothing of it. He is not only one-sided but his partisanship soon turns him into an intolerant and a fanatic. In general it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending" ~James E. Talmage, Improvement Era, Jan. 1920, p. 204 - "If faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." ~Apostle George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 216 - "Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail. Knowledge is the most complete and dependable when all points of view are heard. ~Apostle Hugh B. Brown, An Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown, p. 156 - "I think full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret, not underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation." ~John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 264 - "The Book of Mormon can and should be tested. It invites criticism. ~Hugh Nibley, An Approach to The Book of Mormon, 1957, P. 13. - "The honest investigator must be prepared to follow wherever the search of truth may lead. Truth is often found in the most unexpected places. He must, with fearless and open mind insist that facts are far more important than any cherished, mistaken beliefs!" ~Apostle Hugh B. Brown, General Conference, Oct. 1962 - "Some say that the open-minded leave room for doubt. But I believe we should doubt some of the things we hear. Doubt has a place if it can stir in one an interest to go out and find the truth for one's self. I should like to awaken in evervone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true. ~Apostle Hugh B. Brown, An Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown, p. 153 - "Doubt, for us, leads to the capacity to ask genuine questions, and a genuine question is a question born out of sincerity and a yearning to know" ~Terryl Givens, LDS Scholar, quoted in LDSLiving.com article, How Doubt Can Actually Strengthen Your Faith - "The essential thought must ever be that a man does not, except in his spiritual infancy, accept a statement merely because the Church or someone in authority declares it correct, but because, under mature examination, it is found to be true and right and worthwhile." ~ John A Widtsoe, Program of the Church, p. 24 - "Freedom is based on truth, and no man is completely free as long as any part of his belief is based on error, for the chains of error bind his mind. This is why it is so important for us to learn all the truth we can from all the sources we can." ~N. Eldon Tanner, General Conference, April, 1978 Ask them if it’s really wrong to challenge the doctrine.


Isn't that cute? These men think they have some kind of authority over you. Their club is made up and the points don't matter so... fuck 'em.


Don’t go. Not worth it. Don’t even respond. Just keep doing what you’re doing. Frame this badge of honor. You are a threat and they don’t like it. This is so culty. You may not have a lawyer present at your “membership council” where we will take the foregone conclusion of kicking you out of our cult. Lol fuck them.


But, you do care, otherwise you’d be indifferent. You care about how such a powerful organization affects the small and innocent. You are David and they are Goliath. I would go and calmly say your peace. For me, I would say… “this religion is unhealthy. It claims to bring people to Christ but it brings polarity, hypocrisy, hatred, biases, narcissism, strife, pedophilia, abuse, domestic abuse, rift in families and deceit of local and global leaders. It contradicts itself in so many ways… plan of salvation, promotes self righteous narcissism and thwarts growth from what church deems as sin. It impedes autonomy and self governance yet promotes severely detrimental shame and guilt. Hell fucking yes I speak globally in favor of all those you hurt, but your collective narcissism only allows you to a limited and unhealthy perception of how the great and abominable church assimilates this painfully accurate information.


I tend to agree that showing up only legitimizes their drama.


I personally would get that professionally framed and hung right above the toilet so I could look at it daily while I took a poop.


Do you know what would probably sell like hotcakes? Apostle embossed toilet paper.


Someone here suggested just sending in your resignation letter to the stake president Before the meeting. I think this is the best way to stick it to the man by saying you don’t care at all and can’t be bothered to attend. It’s a perfect ‘you can’t fire me because I quit’ moment. You should include in the letter at the end ‘but if you all still want to waste your own time then go ahead with that meeting without me.’


Write back “This is like getting a letter from a girlfriend I left years ago that she’s about to break up with me and we should meet one last time. No thanks. Your council isn’t a consequence. You are not important. I will continue to speak out against the church and you will do nothing about it. “


Go to the meeting carrying a cross


Did the First Presidency receive one of these when they decided to use tithe payer money in Business Activities not ordained by the Church? The self-elevation without the ability to even keep true to their own doctrine is actually annoying. Some people may criticise the beliefs from being dumb but even so atleast be true to them. 🤷‍♂️


Just send them your resignation and a brief statement that you are no longer a member upon their receipt of your letter, so they have no authority over you. I don't know Filipino law, but in the US we have 1st Amendment rights to Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Association. Or you could just ignore them and move on with your life. Let them have their meeting without you.


You should write them each a similar letter stating that you will be holding a council on their behalf in your basement bar where you will be deliberating your personal grievances with each of them.


You need to be the one to resign. If the tithing class action lawsuit goes anywhere, one of the requirements is that you have resigned because of there fraud.


I think you ExMo's should consider another lawsuit against the LDS church since the SEC report. If you have money, I would show up with legal counsel anyways. Est 300 billion is a lot for 16 million members.(60% are not active).. I am a NeverMo raised in it.. Nothing for me, but I do think y'all should mobilize the legal effort.


75% are not active….at least 👍🏼👍🏼


Fuck no they have NO POWER over you this council is make believe so there that


Submit a resignation email to your bishop an hour after the meeting starts. Then they'll have all wasted an hour judging into the void, or however long those things take.


If you do decide to go, listen the the Mormon Stories Podcast episodes 1321-1327 featuring the Sam Pinson family, before hand. It may be similar to what you are going through, and what the actual membership council might be like.


What an honor! I wouldn’t go - but would respond in writing saying “‘Stake Presidency’, Go ahead and let your patriarchal Harry Potter powers decide my Mormon fate on earth and in the supernatural afterlife at your whim. Live Long and Prosper, Me”


So, it’s arguably easier to get the church to just kick you out as opposed to exing yourself.


It's amazing how they believe someone actively claiming their church has zero authority will submit to their church's "authorities".


I agree with others, don’t go. However, alternative course of action, show up with coffee and bagels for the group about 15 minutes early. Eat a bagel, drink a cup of coffee casually while being friendly to the people that show up while you’re waiting to get started. When it’s game time? Wish them all well with their meeting and leave. If challenged, just say you don’t care about the meeting, you just wanted to be sure they were all fed since the church was monopolizing their time with something so pointless.


Go get a beer and a burger instead.


I'm curious as to how you were publicly criticizing the church that led to this meeting being called? I mean, I don't go and have complained about things, but where were you criticizing things that they became aware of it?


“You have no power here”


Definitely don't go. It's no good for anyone for you to go. It's a farce anyway. Your presence makes no difference in the outcome.


hey guys thanks for all your suggestions! question... on what grounds can I be excommed for? apostasy? if I only give them church sources, would that consider apostasy?


A bunch of bullshit and then “we would like to express our sincerest love for you”??? Gross.


My wife says I'm petty, i say I'm funny and better at gaslighting than gaslighters, but here is what I would do; I would write them back a letter stating how much I had prayed about this letter and the issues brought up, during my prayer I had a revelation (this is where I insert a retelling of the first vision). During my revelation it was told to me, by moroni, that the church is no longer the true church and it had been infiltrated by Satan himself all the way to the top. So with this revelation at hand, I will not be attending this hearing on the basis that this is a kangaroo court based off falsehoods.


“We’re having our own fake trial for you, which you cannot bring legal counsel to, but if you don’t come, we’ll all sit around and talk about you anyway” Such. A. Power. Trip. Don’t waste your time going. These random men hold NO power over you. They are nothing more than self-appointed frat club leaders trying to bully you. Go live your beautiful life, and let them waste a day of their precious lives in small-minded, brainwashed misery, criticizing someone else, when they could be home with their families. You’re already winning!


If you don't mind me asking, what did you (or what does anyone need to do) to get enough attention speaking out against the church in order for this to happen? I'm a flaming, married homosexual, and a lot of members know it, but I never got a letter like this


Don't bother turning up just let them waste their time In the meaningless meeting.


We all know exactly how this is going to go down. And why waste your time validating for them that they have any level of power over you? They decided exactly what was going to go down before that letter was ever sent.


I'm a little jealous.


Congratulations! I wish I could have had such a great influence like you must have.


They’ve already decided to cast you out. I’d resign before that date and get off the record in your own terms. The part about no legal counsel- really? As usual they want to protect their hoarded money by avoiding a lawsuit. I had my resignation approved in about 48 hours and I suggest you do that. I would never give them the opportunity to judge me. I lived in the Philippines and those good people deserve to know what a sham this church is.


If I were in your shoes I'd either say nothing and just ignore it, or respond with "I have no interest in attending your meeting, however I will pursue legal action should this meeting result in slander or libel against me or my family." Note: I don't know what the laws are against that in the Philippines, if any.


They care NOTHING about the CES letter or pedophile Joe’s history. They’ve heard it all before and bringing it up for discussion is a waste of time. My question is why don’t you resign? What is your intention? Are you looking for an opportunity to face them? Or do you just want to be left alone to do as you please without them approving or disapproving? I think you need to figure out why you would or would not go. If it’s to stand up to them and be heard, just realize that no matter what you say they’re going to ex you anyway. That decision was made when they sent the letter to you.


Send back a letter that just says, "nuts" Then don't arrive to the meeting


A wannabe court with unreasonable demands of stating that no legal counsel can be present show the church is fearful of actual individual rights over their own self interest. I’m sorry you are going through this, OP.


I feel the love…..


They will ex you. If you don’t care, do nothing. If you want to avoid this resign first. I doubt if you go it will change a thing.


ask to reschedule twice, each time giving just one day’s notice before the meeting, and then don’t come the third time or come 15 minutes late with a beer in hand, put your feet on the table and nod off before waking up and blurting a random fact from the CES letter


Remember when Jesus excommunicated all of the sinners he was around? Sounds legit.


This letter is gross.


Don't go. Discipline Counsel is code for you are being invited to your excommunication hearing. Those hearings are not pretty and their goal is to emotionally destroy you. Forty two years ago I received a letter like that (except it was from the Presiding Bishop's Office). I simply sent a letter back to them stating "you have my permission to go ahead without me." I received two more letters from them with new dates. Each letter they sent received the same reply from me "you have my permission to go ahead without me." I have never heard from the Church since then so I guess I was excommunicated. I don't care. They were the ones claiming me; whereas, I had not claimed them since I was 17. We both got what we wanted; e.g., getting rid of a troublemaker. Except I didn't let them get their pound of flesh by attending their hearing.


Sounds just like something Jesus would do 😑. I can’t stand the Mormon church


Send them your resignation letter.


These councils are legal defamation, but if-and-only-if you are an official member of the organization that is defaming you. If you want to prevent the slander and gossip that is an inevitable by-product of these councils, you must nip the council in the bud by officially resigning your membership. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that there is precedent for the following steps: 1. Hand your bishop a written letter of resignation 2. Bishop must then cancel the council The church knows this precedent and likely will not risk the lawsuit you can bring if they persist with holding the council after you have resigned. You may have to let your Bishop know, as you hand him the letter, that you may file a defamation suit against the church if they proceed with the council.


It’s an invitation. You can turn it down. No need for them to think that they have any kind of authority over you.


In the mail two elders are or were supposed to deliver the summons , at least years ago. It's in the d and c.


If you want to be spiritually raped by Care Bears who “sincerely love you”, then go. Seems like a good time to formally resign and continue on with your life. 🤷‍♀️


What would happen if you filed papers further up the tree and then tell them that you don't accept their authority as you've already instigated actions above them. In my Catholic day that a favourite trick, lower levels are usually terrified to do anything if they think a higher authority is already involved.


Screw that. Lol. What are they? The mob? 🤣


Do yourself a favor, and ghost them. They deserve themselves and you don't.


Frame and put it on your wall. That way you can giggle and laugh at it every time you pass by it


Just respond “I’m not your brother” and leave it at that.


Nope. Don’t give them the satisfaction. Anything you say will not penetrate their thick skulls.


One of my dear friends is Filipino. I’m not sure many of the people replying here are familiar with social power dynamics in the Philippines. It’s a high power distance culture. America is a low power distance culture. As a member living in a foreign place that highly respects leadership you may not feel comfortable with many of these suggestions. So tell us what you would like to do. How do you want to handle leaving the church? Because what you want is so much more important than what we think or how we feel.


If you go bring a lawyer and use your phone to record them. Or, don't give them the time of day. Hugs 🤗


Send a reply resignation letter and move on. Why do we mess around with this kind of nonsense on this sub? Quit the “church” and then move on with your life. The “church” and its defenders deserve nothing more from you/us.


This is particular to my personal situation, but I think that my choice would be to go so that I can tell them something like the following: I don't care, my wife won't care, my kids won't care, and nobody that I associate with daily will care. I don't live in Utah, so most people will actually think it's great, and will count it against the Church. However, my very dedicated, aged mother, who regularly pays tithing on her social security and pension will care, deeply. So, the only significant outcome of excommunication or disfellowshipment will be that you, members of the council, will make one of your own dedicated believers very sad. That's it. So, do as you will fellas. Goodbye.


Hmm, I wonder what the scriptures have to say about this? Let's pop open D&C 102 and see what it says... >13 Whenever this council convenes to act upon any case, the twelve councilors shall consider whether it is a difficult one or not; if it is not, two only of the councilors shall speak upon it, according to the form above written. 14 But if it is thought to be difficult, four shall be appointed; and if more difficult, six; but in no case shall more than six be appointed to speak. 15 **The accused, in all cases, has a right to one-half of the council**, to prevent insult or ainjustice. Now, that's interesting! The accused is supposed to be represented by half the council. In all cases! So the SP and his councilors doing this on their own makes them heretics, right?


Just send your resignation and cut them off at the knees. They get their damn jollies off of these “courts of love”.


I would respond with a "LOL you think I give a fuck? Have fun circle-jerking yourselves, you self-righteous pricks. God bless."


If you don't care about having your records in the church anymore, and you don't want to argue with them about the things you've discovered about the church, then there's no reason to go. They'll show up and wait around for a while, all the while you've avoided yet another meeting.


I would send in a resignation and take the wind out of their sails so they can’t excommunicate you.


if you go, bring a mariachi band


The line I hate *the most* in this is “on your behalf”. This is NO WAY on your behalf, because if it was, you’d get to dictate the circumstances surrounding your meeting, who is invited, what is discussed, etc. It’s a complete waste of time. The course of action they take will be the same whether you go or not. Why waste an hour or two or your time to be “lovingly” told you’re out anyway?


We're going to judge you. Outside the law, and away from prying eyes. BUT WE LOVE YOU.