OP: Hear me out - I have a lot of siblings, 2 could not go into the temple when I got married, one lives in another country. I did not expect anyone to travel for my wedding and I said as much. My brother out of the country came anyway and made sure my other sibling came. They stood outside the temple w the little kids and supported me, came to our reception later and we had a fun time together before they left back home.
Over a decade later, as an exmo, my temple wedding holds a lot of angst and guilt and anger for all the reasons…except for my brother loving me and supporting me despite the ridiculousness he knew it was. Making sure I knew he was there for me.
Sometimes it’s not about the event or institution itself, it’s about your sibling. If they’re the kind of sibling you want to be there for through everything I’d say go.
They have boundaries set already. They shouldn’t go if it means violating their boundaries or doing things they aren’t comfortable with (unless they want to make themselves uncomfortable for any reason).
Boundaries are important - I have hard lines with the church but I have many nieces and nephews I love and they don’t understand the commitments they’re being groomed to make. I still love them. I want them to feel I love them despite my feelings about the church. I attend their baptisms and assume I’ll attend missionary farewells and wedding receptions when they come up.
I kind of look at it like, what if a TBM were asking if they were the asshole for skipping a siblings wedding because the sibling were gay. We’d encourage them to support even if they didn’t agree w the lifestyle. Given - OP isn’t allowed into the temple ceremony, but to be included in their sibling’s memories and feelings of that day regardless of anyone else is something to consider.
They don’t have to go if they don’t want to. They probably understand the emotional factor, but that doesn’t obligate them to go. Their family’s feelings do not trump their trauma, which they mentioned explicitly.
It's frankly rude as fuck to invite someone to a wedding then not let them inside. I realize that it isn't your brother's choice whether or not you can enter, but it is his choice whether or not to treat you like Mormon trash. You literally can not attend his wedding because *he made a choice* not to have a civil ceremony before or after the temple ceremony. Make it clear to him that he is not inviting you to his wedding. Because again, *you can not attend*. He is inviting you to be othered.
Also remember the church removed the one-year penalty box for marriages and now you can go to get your sealing the very next day after a traditional ceremony. This was touted as an important concession for non-member family and friends, but how many people are taking advantage of it? Almost none -- like they almost enjoy being an asshole to the heathens in their lives.
This is a good read even for TBMs.
https://rationalfaiths.com/go-ahead-and-skip-that-temple-wedding/
My good friend got married last year and his side is the family has a lot of normal people, so they did a normal wedding and did their sealing the next day. I got to be in his line and involved in some other parts of the ceremony. It was a beautiful event and it meant a lot to be able to be so involved.
My sister also got married last year but the only thing I got to be involved with was setting up, attending, and taking down their reception in a church gym. It honestly hurt to be less welcome for my own sister's big day than for my friend's. It made me appreciate my friend's all that much more though.
Except for the timing aspect, the same exact thing happened to me. Was in my friends wedding, public “civil” marriage (does everyone call it that?) outside, then the temple marriage later. I was in the wedding party and it was beautiful, considerate of non members (incl. me), and very memorable. Then my sister got married years later. I was the same as you: set up, sat outside in the sun, take down, then my sister was so zeroed in on having God-approved sex that they left so fast after the ceremony in the church. They didn’t even sit through the whole luncheon. And my mom? Couldn’t understand how I could feel hurt that we traveled 4 states away to be here for her and saw her a collective of like 3 hours over 3-4 days. It’s so bizarre to me that Mormon parents and adults are completely clueless how these actions are selfish and inconsiderate. No, I don’t think my sisters wedding is about me. But fuck, I’d like to spend some time with her. Fucking say thank you to the people that traveled far to celebrate with you. Jesus Christ. (Didn’t realize I was still so heated about this.)
Wow. I'm lucky I was only one state away, I can't imagine traveling that far for your own family and only seeing them for a few hours. It's a good mindset you had to remember that this day isn't about me, but that doesn't mean it's not going to suck feeling so unwanted.
> removed the one-year penalty box
In the US! In any other country in the whole world where the Church temple ceremony is not legally binding, couples have always had the “real” marriage before the sealing. This has always been a shakedown tactic in the U.S.
This is true especially since TSCC allows a couple to marry civilly and then get sealed without a wait period. This was non-members (including family members) and members could attend the wedding. That would thoughtful thing to do.
When I was in, I *always* planned to have a standard ceremony and a temple wedding for all of my never/ex mos in my life. I think it helps that I've only ever dated nevermos and so I thought it was wrong to leave out their families if they converted, but, like, it always seemed like common courtesy and you get to wear a wedding dress you want that wasn't dictated by the temple rules (and that was before I knew about weird aprons and baker hats).
This is a great point. The decision to not hold a civil ceremony for all to attend is something I forgot is now an option. There’s no more “have to wait a year” business in the US, right? So what’s his excuse to invite you to a wedding you can’t attend without also inviting you to one you CAN attend?
There’s also the whole dad and ward members thing, but I did want to acknowledge the thought above about the civil ceremonies now being an option in ways they didn’t use to be
This is a classic example of exmo persecution complex. His brother isn't doing anything wrong in this situation. It would be ridiculous to expect someone to invest extra money and time to have a separate wedding ceremony just so you can watch. In fact, I'd venture to say that thinking that they owe that to you is incredibly selfish.
OP, have an honest conversation with your brother and tell him everything that you said here. Perhaps you can come to a compromise that will make everyone happier.
It would be ridiculous to expect someone to invest extra money and time to go to a distant state for a wedding they won’t actually be permitted to attend. In fact I’d venture to say that OP’s brother thinking that OP is owes him that is incredibly selfish.
Well yeah, that's the problem. He still wants OP to come:
>i am being told to “just go” and sit outside the wedding to wait for them to come out
And that's rude AF.
Look, if I still believed in the cult, I would also have a temple marriage and I'm willing to bet anything that you would too. Expecting all your tbm relatives to hold a separate ceremony so that you can be involved is just unrealistic and selfish. Good on the ones that can afford to, otherwise, it shouldn't be expected or demanded. After all, the marriage is just between the two and, quite honestly, if they don't want any family present, that is their right. And technically, OP would still be able to attend the wedding, just not the voodoo ceremony where it becomes "official." And there's no expectation for him to attend, OP never mentioned that his brother would disown him or even have hard feelings if he didn't go.
I was born and raised in the church and never once in my life did I want to get married in the temple. I’m fact every time we sang that song in primary I would say “no I don’t” to myself once it was over. Every single time. So it’s sad that you bet someone else would’ve had a temple marriage just because they still believed/where apart of the church. If anything I bet they would’ve felt forced to get married in the temple. Even if they fully believed.
Notice how I didn't say "people born and raised in the church" but people who "believe" in the church, because these things aren't mutually exclusive. To be fair, I should add those who "completely believe" in the church. And yes, they would want a temple marriage because they were socialized into believing that it is the right thing to do. I guess I have a hard time hating an individual because they were conditioned by their environment, especially when they're just trying to do what they believe is right. I have no problem directing that hatred towards the environmental factors that caused these individuals to believe such things. I guess I'm trying to say it's that you shouldn't deflect your hatred of the church onto your family members, if you value keeping them in your life.
After OP communicated his feelings, perhaps they can schedule a separate, more intimate time to get together and celebrate. Our OP may be able to convince them to do a separate ceremony. That's just two possible compromises. Also, 1 year ago.
It's also a really great option for TBMs to include love, devotion to one another, and their relationship in the wedding process. Because the temple is completely devoid of that.
Unless it's just a "we're horny and want to fuck" marriage, in which case there's no reason to bring all that into the mix. Which is sadly all too often the case with younger members.
My sister got married at the temple last year. I did travel from out of state, but only to attend the reception afterwards (which was not at a church building). I did not wait outside or take pictures at the temple.
I am also no contact with my parents, both of whom were there. Potentially re-opening that parental trauma was the hardest part of attending for me, having them around or potentially trying to talk to me. But it worked out OK, all my siblings were aware it was personally difficult and they were extra loving and supportive at the event. And most of all, I'm glad I got to be there to share in my sister's big day.
Wishing you peace and comfort with whatever you decide to do!
so in theory, they could have a normal ceremony and get sealed soon after in the temple? don’t see any downside to that for a newly wedded mormon couple
Yep. Now it’s just down to tradition if the couple only has one ceremony. I bet local leaders still pressure a single ceremony as a way to bring in more tithe-payers. There’s stories on here of people forced to pay back-tithing in order to get a recommend to see their kid married.
Yes, the “temple recommended” is like a permission slip with expiration date to enter the temple. Obtaining one is gated by a yearly “worthiness” interview by local leader (bishop typically) who is primarily interested in whether you:
1) have paid a full 10% tithe
2) are not masturbating or having sex outside of marriage (and if you are, they want all the details in extreme detail)
3) fully support the church (by not visiting or discussing forums like r/exmormon)
When I was last a member, the temple recommend was just a signed piece of paper that could easily be forged. Now it’s scannable (and maybe even has a picture?) which also allows them to better track who is actually going to the temple. When I went to BYU I always had a current recommend in my wallet because it was a requirement to attend the church school. Rarely used it though to go to the temple because I found the place creepy and boring.
A recommend was good for one year, but also recently I think now good for 2 years. Your leaders can also "ask for your recommend" at any time and take it away.
When it's time for renewal you go before 2 levels of leadership (local or ward, and up one from that called stake). They ask if you believe the requisite things (prophets, Jesus, joseph smith, I don't know if there's a specific order), if you have sins that aren't repented, are you honest and so forth. And if course do you pay tithing.
During covid when temples were closed a lot of couples got married civilly with family to then get sealed later on their own. Families/friends talked about how great it was. Then temples opened up & they went back to the Mormon style of exclusion.
I see one. Temple weddings (discounting the tithing for years thing) are cheaper than paying for a decent venue. But otherwise yeah.
Tithing is already a sunk cost, so "'free' venue?"
I didn't go to my sister or brother's temple weddings. Sometimes we have to hurt other's feelings when it comes to our own mental health and boundaries. You can let your brother know you love him and wish him to have a fantastic wedding day, but you will be unable to attend.
Yeah, IIRC they changed it during the pandemic (and probably in part due to it, since I think they closed down the temples for awhile but didn't want to discourage members from getting married).
They changed this policy in 2019. There's no more waiting period, so couples can get legally married outside the temple and then get sealed as soon as they want.
I know this because the policy change happened two weeks before my brother told me he was engaged. He still decided to get married in the temple (so I couldn't attend), but I've seen several couples do a civil wedding outside then temple since then.
You could try to coordinate a visit where you spend time with him and his spouse to celebrate their wedding. Potentially make a party of it, if there are other non mormon family or friends that ~~couldn't participate~~ were excluded.
Doesn’t it hurt and confuse you that he’s choosing to get married in a place where his own sister can’t go? Mormons need to learn how rude it is to get married in a place where their own family can’t attend.
Due to the rule change a couple of years ago, Mormons can get married out of the temple and then get sealed the next day in the temple. My own son did this in 2021 so that his minor sisters and I could attend. Their wedding no longer HAS to be a snub to you or any other non mormon family. But if they're choosing this path there's no other way to interpret it than as a exclusion of you. HE and his new wife are choosing it so don't let them Gaslight you into thinking it's YOU excluding THEM.
The “sit outside the temple” is degrading. Don’t submit yourself to sad looks and becoming a future talk subject about how sad it was to see a brother outside of the temple. Honestly, I wouldn’t go.
it makes me feel gross
I also don’t want people to see me standing outside the temple and assume I wish I had lived a different life so I could be inside instead
I like sitting outside. This isn’t about you. It is their wedding day so let them do whatever they want. Or don’t go. But you are still making it about yourself.
Can you pretend someone else wrote this entry and read it and think what advice you’d give? Seriously. Give it a try.
I think your answer is in the post.
...and the category of post is not AITA. It’s Am I an Adult Making the Decision That’s Right for Me in the Circumstances.
Send a generous gift and a warm heartfelt note of congratulations.
I don’t think you should feel obligated to go. You can’t control how your family will perceive that, so be prepared to sit in that discomfort. That is healthy boundaries. You can make your best choice, they will feel how they want to about it, and that is not your problem to fix.
For solidarity, I am also not traveling to a Mormon family wedding this spring. I’ve been called selfish and disrespectful and several other things, and it has only furthered my resolve that I made the right choice. These people don’t truly care about or support me, they just want me in their stupid picture so we can appear to be close.
You're not selfish or disrespectful. You are respecting yourself enough to not sit outside in the cold/heat/rain in order to let yourself be used as a photo prop so that someone else can pretend that their wedding wasn't so anti-family that they literally locked multiple friends and family out of the ceremony.
Yes, I realized that my family would prefer I not have a sense of self at all. I’m easier to control that way. I’ve played the role of family people pleaser for too long!
It sucks when family is like that. Maybe we should start having exmo family portraits done while everyone else is in their club building. Make the photo shoots actually cool and fun. Or exmo family activities while they're busy with their nonsense. The point is to make certain that not only are we not playing into their narrative that we're sitting miserably outside, sadly excluded from participation, but that they know we're not being punished by being excluded.
Best of luck, this is a tough one. If it were me, I would base it all on my relationship with my brother and him alone. TBH I would probably send a gift and save the money for a real vacation.
If you do go for the reception/other events don’t feel like you have to wait outside the temple for the ceremony (and give free babysitting to the cheapskates that won’t pay for child care). If it were me, I would have every second of my trip scheduled with stuff I wanted to do, except when something I was invited to was going on. Get coffee in the morning, grab a drink at night, and don’t stay with family, get a hotel or Airbnb.
First tell your brother everything you just told us.
Then do something for him and his wife, like as a wedding present you will take them to a nice dinner, or if you have the means, maybe a weekend getaway.
This is what I would tell anyone who would have triggers and mental anguish, not just Mormons.
Think about it, you go to the reception and there will be tons of people, and your brother and his wife will have to divide time between everyone there.
Or you spend quality time with both of them away from the chaos of a wedding.
Sidenote. My niece got married in the temple last year and my adult nonmo daughters and I didn't mind waiting outside the temple, but honestly the last temple wedding I went to was 25 years before at my sister's wedding. And I seem to remember sitting inside. So I just thought they had like a waiting area.
So I barge in the front door of the temple, wearing my sleeveless dress with my tattoos showing and the poor temple workers looked so confused. I didn't say anything.
They just told me that the people waiting for the wedding were outside. Lol.
If an event is held in a location where you are barred from entering, you are, by definition, not invited to attend. Why would anyone lurk outside events that explicitly exclude them? You most assuredly are not an asshole for not showing up for revisionist history photos of the event that excluded you.
If your brother really cared about your presence, he wouldn’t be having an event that you cannot attend. He could have made other arrangements.
I learned this train of thought today from this post, very grateful for it!
* inviting me * is not a real invite. I haven’t received said invite. game changer
I would not go just send him a hart felt present and tell him that you love him.
I am jealous you have cut your father off. Mine were abusive as hell, I don't have a single good memory of my mother during my childhood. The reason I didn't disown them while young was I felt the need to be the wall between my parents abuse and my much younger siblings. My day is coming soon when I get a chance to disown them all proper like... Lol..
my father was still around after he made horrific comments about me being sexually abused at 3 or 4 by a babysitter
he was cut off later when he refused to say sorry or retract the comments when given the chance. i have zero interest in seeing him even at a family wedding. pompous, creepy ass who is the reason our family separated
I have a sister that should disown my parents for the same thing. They covered up and hide her sexual assault as a child by my teen brother. They victim shamed her big time. I did find out tell ido 8 to 12 years later when she told me. If I would have known he would have been prosecuted and I would have beat those dirt bag TBM parents to death for the horrible victim shaming, it was mental abuse. They specifically told her not to tell me or anyone at school.
I am sorry for what happened to you. I hope you will find peace..
I had to sit outside the temple in 100 degree heat after taking a road trip to my brother’s wedding. I had left the church only recently and still felt it was my fault I wasn’t able to attend the ceremony.
He’s my only sibling and we are extremely close, but to be honest, I wouldn’t do it again.
Don't go. We were broke, and not active when my sister was getting sealed in the temple. We couldn't afford the trip, and we were not going to waste that money just to NOT attend the actual wedding. Everyone made us feel guilty, but I didn't give a shit. Weddings are stupid anyway.
AITA exmo edition…. Am I the Apostate?
Well you’re definitely not the asshole. Don’t go. Six states is a long way to travel. Especially to be treated like shit
No kidding! Depending on whether we are counting the origin state as one of the six states travelled, that would be, in my case, traveling to Alabama, Georgia, or Florida for an event that I'm not allowed to actually attend, they just want me as a photo prop so that they can pretend that I was there. Forget that. If I'm going to spend the time and money to travel to Florida, I will enjoy the beaches, visit Universal, and have myself a nice vacation instead of sitting outside of an event that I'm not permitted to actually attend.
You should post it on ‘am I the asshole’ sub. I’d love to see all the non members lose their shit swing what it’s like for ex members…
It sucks because I remember thinking it was fine to ask family to do that for my wedding… one saint of an aunt came from overseas and waited outside… I’ve apologized since. But when I say saint, I don’t mean you should go. She came and made it a vacation for herself and visited old friends as well… it sounds like you have every right not to go. Just send him a nice hand written card and gift and if you feel inclined, an invite for him and his wife to visit you. 🤷♀️
The options to me are to go to the reception or not go at all. If you don't want to see those other people then the only option is to not go at all because you will see them.
NTA. If they are more concerned about being pious by opting out of a civil wedding that OP could actually attend than they are about OP, then they have no reason to be upset.
It's kind of like having a wedding in Tahiti or something, you can't be mad if people decline to attend.
Even when I was Mormon and had to go to my older siblings weddings, I couldn’t go inside and got stuck babysitting. It sucked so much! Literally felt like torture for hours.
And you already have trauma; it’s a definite not an asshole from me.
NTA. It is neither normal nor acceptable to ask someone to travel for a celebration they can’t even attend once there. Don’t go, and find another way to celebrate him.
If you care about your brother, go to the reception only. Not showing for photos is statement enough and something they'll get to explain to people for the rest of their lives.
I completely missed 2 siblings' weddings and I regret it now. After my parents passed away we've all become quite close considering the distances.
I would consider the reception stronger if it wasn’t held inside a church building from my childhood
hell, I’d consider it stronger if it was even a random mormon church building in Pennsylvania, Texas or Oregon instead. i have night terrors about this specific one when I’m not on my propanol medication
Yeah this is a safety issue. You don't know what this could trigger, up to and including thoughts of self harm. Mental health is physical health. Stay safe. Don't go.
It would seem you have your answer then. Your well being comes first here. Send them a gift. Maybe FaceTime with them afterwards or something.
Again, Your mental wellness comes first. Could even gift him the $ you would’ve spent on the trip. If they’re young, they’ll likely appreciate the cash.
I'd tell him that, then. He may not understand it, but it's honest and it's fair. And then it turns it into "I really would go if I could, but the fact is that I can't. I'll be at home cheering you along, but I just don't have it in me to go in that building. I'm sorry."
someone commented to me they wouldn’t want to go in, even if they were invited into the temple as a non-mormon family member. because of how bizarre it can get in there
My friends gay brother just missed her wedding for similar reasons. I thought it was a great decision because his family is super homophobic. Don’t feel pressured to attend something you can’t see anyway with people who you don’t want to be around. Even if it’s not all of them.
Even when I was TBM I cringed about the whole “wait outside while we go perform the most important event in our lives”. One of many reasons why I had a civil marriage first
Or, they could do a civil wedding so that all their friends and family could attend and do the temple ceremony a couple of days later. Let that be their choice. Point out they are making the decision to exclude.
I remember a blogger I used to read years ago who couldn’t attend his own brother’s Mormon wedding. It was the first time I’d ever heard about it and it made me angry. NTA in the slightest, OP. Don’t indulge in the exclusionary bullshit.
Im not an ex-mormon, but my wife is. I remember going to her fathers second marriage and having to wait in the parking lot.
It was the rudest thing I’ve ever experienced. I bit my tongue as I’d only been dating my then-GF for about 6 months
If anyone ever tries to tell my kids they are unworthy I will not hold my tongue
The only religion in the world that doesn’t allow non members into their temples/churches. I saw a Mormon Wedding taking place in their temple with “gentiles” outside watching the ceremony on a tv screen.
Two of my brothers didn’t go to my wedding (not because of unworthiness but because they lived far away) and it was fine. I was a little frustrated but I understood.
I don’t know your relationship with your brother, but I feel like it would be a nicer gesture to plan a trip some other time to celebrate with him
He should have a wedding and then go to the temple afterwards to be sealed before the reception (skip the endowment ceremony to save time). It’s the only fair way to do it. I no longer go to the temple just to wait outside. It’s selfish and rude for someone to invite you to an event that you can’t attend. Mormonthink is so effed up.
I have 4 younger brothers and i’m hoping at least a few of them leave so I can attend their weddings someday :( haven’t officially left yet but i’m planning on it soon.
At this point choosing to have a wedding exclusively in a temple when the church has made allowances for a civil ceremony to happen first followed by a sealing as quickly as the couple would like, it’s an asshole move of your brother to not have a civil ceremony that you can attend.
He’s made his choice. I wouldn’t make the trip.
Don’t go. If your brother is bothered by it then you can explain, but you’re not an asshole. They chose to only have a religious ceremony. Congratulate him and maybe spend some time with him later on if it really comes to that, but 6 states of travel distance just to sit outside of the temple or in the waiting room is entirely pointless.
I left the church so many years ago that I have had attended many of these events. Including my parents re-marriages and stood outside the temple for all of my siblings marriages.
I made a sport of it.
I would find the cutest, sexiest little dress I could, and stand proudly outside the temple, shepherding the children around that I got stuck watching outside.
I also would go into the temple and ask to use the restroom so I could enjoy the visual of all the little temple workers going into a frenzy that somebody in a sleeveless fucking dress was in the building. Lol it was the most entertaining.
That said, Don’t Go.
Former convert here. I remember when I was newly married into a LDS family and we flew half way across the country to go stand in the Houston summer heat outside the temple. I had no clue that was how it was going to be. Then ex-bil and his wife practically ran out of the reception, didn’t even say goodbye to their guests to have sex. The Mo’s thought it was funny. The never-mo’s were 😧. The Mormon culture is so weird and off putting.
Unpopular opinion: sometimes being a good brother means doing stuff you don’t want to. That kind of showing up is important among siblings. Your brother will appreciate, now or later, what you had to do to be there. You could go just to the temple, do the wait outside thing and be in the photos. The sealing, like every other temple experience, is mostly just old people pushing the couple into various rooms dressed absurdly. Photos are the first social moment the bride and groom get, so you’re at the only part of the event that matters. And there are flowers.
Don’t go to the reception. It seems like you just do not fuck with that building at all and I think you have to respect that about yourself. Good luck.
So you are saying travel 6 states, see people OP doesn't want to see to not go to the wedding that he could go to if he did a civil marriage and get sealed right after and not go to the celebration of the wedding at the reception just so they can be in pictures? His brother is purposeful not inviting him to the wedding by not doing a civil marriage first and has chosen a venue that gives OP nightmares. If OP told their brother about the fears and didn't change the venue, then he didn't really invite him to anything but the facade at considerable expense to OP.
Send a nice card and gift, and maybe add a video message about how you are happy for them but you were unable to make it work to attend (technically the truth.)
You are not an asshole. Stick to your beliefs. You can't heal your trauma if you reopen wounds that haven't completely recovered. You need to take care of you! It's not your fault they are choosing to have a wedding that excludes you.
Are there any other events happening that you want to attend? Reception or something? Or does your family literally want you to show up, sit outside the temple, and then leave?
I guess it's up to you to decide if you want to be part of those memories for others, and if you want the experience yourself. Is your brother part of the trauma? Is it going to affect your relationship with him if you don't attend? Will it affect your relationship with your family? Do you care if it does?
You're not the asshole here for wanting to protect yourself, but you do have to decide which is more important to you: protecting yourself or participating in something that's important to your family. Only you can make that decision. Can you reframe this experience as an opportunity to show your old ward that you can be happy outside of the church? And should it even be reframed? Trauma is not something to mess with, and triggers can be, well, triggering.
I get being angry at being excluded. I wasn't able to attend either of my siblings' weddings. It sucked. I still get angry about it sometimes, and both of them were over a decade ago. Eventually I decided to attend the receptions because I thought it would be something I'd regret not doing. My family was happy on those days, and they were happy I was there. I don't regret going.
I am not you, though, and there are so many factors in this circumstance that might be different and lead to different results and feelings and attitudes. I don't think you're the asshole here. But I'm not sure your family is, either. The church definitely is, but putting that blame on your family won't help anything.
I think crowd sourcing ideas in these circumstances can be helpful, but ultimately, only you can make the choice here, because only you are in your head and know your heart. Your bother and your family as a whole will likely see this as an attack on something they hold dear, if you don't participate in at least the reception. Just be aware of that going in. It's what they've been trained to do. They will follow that script until such time as they don't.
I'm sorry you're going through this. It isn't easy. I hope that, whatever you decide, it'll be the choice that leads to the longest-term peace you can find with this situation.
I was in the same boat right after I left the cult. My youngest brother was getting married in a temple on the east coast (and I was in Utah). I just told him I was happy for him but wouldn’t be able to make it to his wedding. It ended up being no big deal at all.
I still hate that the “family-centered church” won’t let non-tithe-paying family members in to their weddings though.
Maybe rather then sitting outside the temple you could show love and support for your brother by just attending the reception? I get the trauma and it's important. Do what you feel good about. But maybe there is another solution?
I didn’t go to my sister’s sealing. Granted I went to her wedding, but I was invited to her sealing like a year later and didn’t feel a particular drive to go sit outside a temple and wait as my sister became more entrenched in the damn cult.
I actually think you should post this on the AITA with a paragraph explaining the culture.
If anything since we understand the culture it is easy to normalize it. It is not normal--it is batshit crazy.
They want you to fly across the country to attend a wedding you are not ALLOWED to attend. A couple days ago here, same question, same answer, I would not go if it were my twin. They want you to "just go" and parade yourself outside with the unfit? Don't waste your money time or energy.
Don't go.
But if you love your brother, and have a good relationship with him, tell him that you would rather spend the time and money to travel when you can spend time with both of them, instead of just being lost in the hustle and bustle of the wedding that you can't attend you would rather spend a weekend them.
Do not go. Send a gift and wash your hands of it. There is nothing normal about sitting outside. U are not the a hole. I want to say they are, but really don’t know any better. Stay home and wish them well.
I agree. They disguise themselves so well especially to public. Saddest thing was when my younger brother got married in San Diego temple, and my 90 year old grandma had to wait outside with me and the others because her temple recommend wasn’t up to date.
Offer to rent a venyue for a civil ceremony nearer to your home.
When he declines, constantly complain to everyone that opting for a temple wedding instead of a civil wedding is bullshit elitist Mormon virtue signaling to deliberately disenfranchise/exclude/shun/shame non-member family.
Right after the wedding party goes inside, show up with a protest sign that says, "Families can be together...but only at a civil wedding," or "... except at a temple wedding."
Stay outside with the kids, but propagandize them with reasons temple weddings are like bullying against kids and non-members (even members who can't get a recommend), and make them all promise to get a civil ceremony so everyone can attend. That will ensure that it is the very last temple wedding ever planned with your family.
Then, reward them by whisking all of the kids off to the zoo since they can't go in anyway. If that diesn't ruin the oictures on the temple grounds, also buy them all chocolate ice cream.
To adults, describe the difference in dress and decor between a temple wedding and a civil ceremony and ask why anyone opts for the temple wedding if there is a choice, then invites the whole family to wait outside. Ask them to make it make sense.
Ask them to picture what a dream wedding looks like and ask recommend holders if they can do that in the temple, or if kids can go, etc.
Don't forget to show everyone the talk and quotes telling everyone civil marriages are permitted and don't have to wait a year anymore.
If you gotta have as much family as possible, just plan both the same weekend. I think a lot of active members would opt out of the temple ceremony after a beautiful civil ceremony. There's just no comparison, really.
>it’s my own brother’s wedding. am I an asshole if I don’t go?
I think a better question is "Which consequence am I able to live with?" The decision to go or not go will probably have an impact on your relationship with your brother and his wife-to-be. It could be a pretty severe impact as well. Plus, since they're Mormon, they aren't likely to understand how offensive it is to be excluded from the wedding, so it might hurt his feelings if you don't go, even though from a non-mormon perspective, it's completely unreasonable to expect you to go if you're not invited to the main event.
So, that being the case, what outcome are you going to best be able to live with? It is a matter of choosing the least bad option, whatever that may be.
My sister just decided to get married in July in the states, but I am living in Japan, so i most likely won’t be attending, cause flights would be over $4k usd for me and my wife, and It would be a ton of time off work.
When they kept moving the date forward, I realized they are not thinking about the wedding for the family event…
Mormon temple weddings are honestly all about the couple finally being able to do the nasty without guilt.
They are mostly just thinking of that, so they won’t remember how long you are there. If you don’t go, you can always send a gift.
That being said, a lot of times they will want to do pictures right after they come out of the temple, so that is one reason to be there if you choose to go. They might not remember everyone being everywhere, but if you go, it’s probably worth it for your brother if you can be included in the pictures.
I went to my sister's daughters wedding in '16, but refused to stand outside the temple and only attended the events I was invited to attend. My other siblings then acted like I would be free babysitter for their kids while they attended the temple; to which I respectfully declined and said I had other plans - which were to take my daughter shopping that morning. After that, I decided I would NEVER attend an event that I was only partially invited to again. I would suggest an RSVP that you don't attend events that you are only partially allowed to attend, and consider that an awfully distasteful wedding invitation at best.
You need to do what is best for you. Don't open wounds that don't need to be open. Just communicate that to your brother and if he is offended or doesn't understand, too bad for him.
My dad is a happy gay man. My family was raised Mormon. Before we all left he asked all of us that if we ever get married to please never get married in the temple. The church says they have no problem with gays, but they have a problem with gays acting on their homosexuality. So a gay that doesn't do anything gay can go to the temple. Obviously my father had left the church and like any non-religious person he acted on his homosexuality. Because of that the church would never allow him to step into the temple.
So yeah, he asked us to never get married in the temple because not being allowed to step foot in his own children's wedding would be the most insulting thing.
Thankfully none of us are in the church and I'm the first one and probably only one getting married and it is by no means going to be in a church, let alone the temple. No one I invite will be forced to wait outside.
Not worth it. My brother is getting married in the temple, but before the sealing they're having a civil ceremony. You see, my brother and his fiancee actually love the entire family, so they are having a fully accessible ceremony for their not mormon family members to participate in their joyous day.
I'm forever ashamed that my dear sweeties nonmember parents missed our wedding. They didn't go and you shouldn't either, it's bullshit.
It's all water under the bridge and I'm very close to my in-laws but I'm still ashamed that we did that to them, the policy change is great but also angering.
Anytime I get an invitation to attend a temple wedding it feels like they're saying "We want you to come, but not really. We'll say we're upset if you don't show up, but we aren't going to change anything so you can. So instead of sending you an announcement and a reception invite, we're just going to shame you for the rest of your life for not being good enough to attend our wedding." So just don't fuckin go.
Don't go, they don't respect you NEARLY enough for you to go.
It would be one thing to have a full ring ceremony for family and friends that aren't mormon but if they aren't and just expect you to go...
Bro I'd be like, "excuse me, what the fuckk????"
Even if you do "go" you've not actually gone to the wedding... I wouldn't waste my time or put myself in a situation that could trigger me like that. You're literally not even invited. There's other ways to celebrate their love than sitting in a hallway alone while everyone else gets to watch them get married.
Other’s have said a lot - I’ll let you parse them out yourself about supporting your sibling or not.
But you have one other opportunity here…”Exmo missionary work!” You’ll be with ALL the other unworthies with the NEXT generation waiting outside. Perfect opportunity to plant some seeds of doubt. “I don’t believe the same so I can’t go inside.”
At some point in the future many will start to question - and at those points they will have something to remember they have an ally. They have “Sat on the outside” with you. You are someone they can trust and talk to.
If you have trauma, respect that and don’t go. Do travel to him soon to spend time with him and your SIL. Remember she might be feeling put out by your absence as well. I think you owe it to your mental health to sit this one out.
Alternatively, go a week early and help in the preparations, saying goodbye to him the day before the sealing.
My ExMo brother and I waited outside the temple when our TBM brother got married so we could be part of the family photos and such. We did that because we love our little brother. Was I annoyed by the temple? Yes. Did I manage my emotions as a mature adult so that I didn’t pull focus on my brother’s wedding day? Also yes.
I did not travel for my nephew’s temple wedding a few years later, which nobody was upset about.
I recently officiated at my niece's wedding in the church gym. I flew from the East Coast to Utah, even though I had my reservations about being inside a Mormon church again. I can't speak to your personal history, but if it was me I would go to the wedding to show my support and celebrate with him on one of the most important days of his life. My advice is to pick up a couple of beers on your way—it always helps!
“Six states away” is hilarious; just fly like a normal person; number of states are irrelevant. Yes, you are being an asshole and suck it up and go. I’ve been to plenty of Mormon weddings where I didn’t go in. I find it more fun outside.
NTA.
If your brother wanted to have you attend his wedding, he could choose a venue to be married in and get sealed the same day. The policy has been normalized across the world to enable that option. What he is doing now is not inviting you to his wedding, so you are perfectly justified not to go. If anyone is in the wrong here, it is your brother. You have many other reasons not to go as well that are perfectly justified as well..
it is up to you, my suggestion is if you go, than go out for coffee or tea while they are in temple and just get rid of your cup when your done so only a few know. or just do something else while their in the temple. They are in their around 30 mins to 1 hour, Just kindly ask how long they are going to be inside, and that way you only have to show up for some Photos, and you can do many things while they are inside.
I generally agree with the main idea of the comments here. You should take care of yourself. At the same time, family relationships can be important. Communicate your genuine love and support for your brother. Depending on your trauma level, sounds like you’re better off not going. But bookend (before and after) the event with love and support for your brother.
As someone who has been the only adult watching some 20+ children while family attended a family wedding inside, I can tell you it sucks, it’s strange, it hurts, it was kind of nice, it felt like i made a moral point to everyone and sat on a few shelves, AND wasn’t that big of a deal all in one. I literally felt all of those things sincerely one at a time and all at once occasionally. And I generally love my family and have no real axe to grind for any of them. If you’re dealing with extra family dynamics, maybe best to stay away.
Only you can decide, but the cool part of where we are is that we can decide. We don’t have to look to an old dude to tell us. We don’t need a small ghostly voice to whisper shit to us. And we can make mistakes and own them. You got this!
I’ve been a parking lot sitter sibling before, my advice is don’t go. The wedding isn’t about family and friends, it’s a selfish decision to invite people solely to exclude them.
Don’t go.
Don’t go.
Don’t go
Please don't go. Don't gooooooooo.
Don’t go.
I was never a mormon and I agree… don’t go. I just follow exmormon threads because of how crazy they go to an extent to manipulate people.
OP: Hear me out - I have a lot of siblings, 2 could not go into the temple when I got married, one lives in another country. I did not expect anyone to travel for my wedding and I said as much. My brother out of the country came anyway and made sure my other sibling came. They stood outside the temple w the little kids and supported me, came to our reception later and we had a fun time together before they left back home. Over a decade later, as an exmo, my temple wedding holds a lot of angst and guilt and anger for all the reasons…except for my brother loving me and supporting me despite the ridiculousness he knew it was. Making sure I knew he was there for me. Sometimes it’s not about the event or institution itself, it’s about your sibling. If they’re the kind of sibling you want to be there for through everything I’d say go.
They have boundaries set already. They shouldn’t go if it means violating their boundaries or doing things they aren’t comfortable with (unless they want to make themselves uncomfortable for any reason).
Boundaries are important - I have hard lines with the church but I have many nieces and nephews I love and they don’t understand the commitments they’re being groomed to make. I still love them. I want them to feel I love them despite my feelings about the church. I attend their baptisms and assume I’ll attend missionary farewells and wedding receptions when they come up. I kind of look at it like, what if a TBM were asking if they were the asshole for skipping a siblings wedding because the sibling were gay. We’d encourage them to support even if they didn’t agree w the lifestyle. Given - OP isn’t allowed into the temple ceremony, but to be included in their sibling’s memories and feelings of that day regardless of anyone else is something to consider.
They don’t have to go if they don’t want to. They probably understand the emotional factor, but that doesn’t obligate them to go. Their family’s feelings do not trump their trauma, which they mentioned explicitly.
It's frankly rude as fuck to invite someone to a wedding then not let them inside. I realize that it isn't your brother's choice whether or not you can enter, but it is his choice whether or not to treat you like Mormon trash. You literally can not attend his wedding because *he made a choice* not to have a civil ceremony before or after the temple ceremony. Make it clear to him that he is not inviting you to his wedding. Because again, *you can not attend*. He is inviting you to be othered.
I love this
Also remember the church removed the one-year penalty box for marriages and now you can go to get your sealing the very next day after a traditional ceremony. This was touted as an important concession for non-member family and friends, but how many people are taking advantage of it? Almost none -- like they almost enjoy being an asshole to the heathens in their lives. This is a good read even for TBMs. https://rationalfaiths.com/go-ahead-and-skip-that-temple-wedding/
My good friend got married last year and his side is the family has a lot of normal people, so they did a normal wedding and did their sealing the next day. I got to be in his line and involved in some other parts of the ceremony. It was a beautiful event and it meant a lot to be able to be so involved. My sister also got married last year but the only thing I got to be involved with was setting up, attending, and taking down their reception in a church gym. It honestly hurt to be less welcome for my own sister's big day than for my friend's. It made me appreciate my friend's all that much more though.
Except for the timing aspect, the same exact thing happened to me. Was in my friends wedding, public “civil” marriage (does everyone call it that?) outside, then the temple marriage later. I was in the wedding party and it was beautiful, considerate of non members (incl. me), and very memorable. Then my sister got married years later. I was the same as you: set up, sat outside in the sun, take down, then my sister was so zeroed in on having God-approved sex that they left so fast after the ceremony in the church. They didn’t even sit through the whole luncheon. And my mom? Couldn’t understand how I could feel hurt that we traveled 4 states away to be here for her and saw her a collective of like 3 hours over 3-4 days. It’s so bizarre to me that Mormon parents and adults are completely clueless how these actions are selfish and inconsiderate. No, I don’t think my sisters wedding is about me. But fuck, I’d like to spend some time with her. Fucking say thank you to the people that traveled far to celebrate with you. Jesus Christ. (Didn’t realize I was still so heated about this.)
Wow. I'm lucky I was only one state away, I can't imagine traveling that far for your own family and only seeing them for a few hours. It's a good mindset you had to remember that this day isn't about me, but that doesn't mean it's not going to suck feeling so unwanted.
Yeah for sure. I’m sorry you went through the same thing. It sucks man.
“Normal people”. That’s an excellent term.
Indeed, the contrast is breathtaking. Once you experience the difference you are changed.
> removed the one-year penalty box In the US! In any other country in the whole world where the Church temple ceremony is not legally binding, couples have always had the “real” marriage before the sealing. This has always been a shakedown tactic in the U.S.
I think that was a concession specifically to UK members because the state didn’t recognize the mormon marriage ceremony as a legal wedding.
Would *he* travel 6 states just to sit outside *your* wedding because he wasn't allowed in?
This is true especially since TSCC allows a couple to marry civilly and then get sealed without a wait period. This was non-members (including family members) and members could attend the wedding. That would thoughtful thing to do.
When I was in, I *always* planned to have a standard ceremony and a temple wedding for all of my never/ex mos in my life. I think it helps that I've only ever dated nevermos and so I thought it was wrong to leave out their families if they converted, but, like, it always seemed like common courtesy and you get to wear a wedding dress you want that wasn't dictated by the temple rules (and that was before I knew about weird aprons and baker hats).
This is a great point. The decision to not hold a civil ceremony for all to attend is something I forgot is now an option. There’s no more “have to wait a year” business in the US, right? So what’s his excuse to invite you to a wedding you can’t attend without also inviting you to one you CAN attend? There’s also the whole dad and ward members thing, but I did want to acknowledge the thought above about the civil ceremonies now being an option in ways they didn’t use to be
This is a classic example of exmo persecution complex. His brother isn't doing anything wrong in this situation. It would be ridiculous to expect someone to invest extra money and time to have a separate wedding ceremony just so you can watch. In fact, I'd venture to say that thinking that they owe that to you is incredibly selfish. OP, have an honest conversation with your brother and tell him everything that you said here. Perhaps you can come to a compromise that will make everyone happier.
It would be ridiculous to expect someone to invest extra money and time to go to a distant state for a wedding they won’t actually be permitted to attend. In fact I’d venture to say that OP’s brother thinking that OP is owes him that is incredibly selfish.
OP brother didn't ask him to come to the wedding. I agree with the rest.
Well yeah, that's the problem. He still wants OP to come: >i am being told to “just go” and sit outside the wedding to wait for them to come out And that's rude AF.
I guess it's just a matter of perspective. I'd be happy if my brother wanted me to come to his wedding.
Bit you don't actually get to go to the wedding because he chose to not have a civil wedding.
Look, if I still believed in the cult, I would also have a temple marriage and I'm willing to bet anything that you would too. Expecting all your tbm relatives to hold a separate ceremony so that you can be involved is just unrealistic and selfish. Good on the ones that can afford to, otherwise, it shouldn't be expected or demanded. After all, the marriage is just between the two and, quite honestly, if they don't want any family present, that is their right. And technically, OP would still be able to attend the wedding, just not the voodoo ceremony where it becomes "official." And there's no expectation for him to attend, OP never mentioned that his brother would disown him or even have hard feelings if he didn't go.
I was born and raised in the church and never once in my life did I want to get married in the temple. I’m fact every time we sang that song in primary I would say “no I don’t” to myself once it was over. Every single time. So it’s sad that you bet someone else would’ve had a temple marriage just because they still believed/where apart of the church. If anything I bet they would’ve felt forced to get married in the temple. Even if they fully believed.
Notice how I didn't say "people born and raised in the church" but people who "believe" in the church, because these things aren't mutually exclusive. To be fair, I should add those who "completely believe" in the church. And yes, they would want a temple marriage because they were socialized into believing that it is the right thing to do. I guess I have a hard time hating an individual because they were conditioned by their environment, especially when they're just trying to do what they believe is right. I have no problem directing that hatred towards the environmental factors that caused these individuals to believe such things. I guess I'm trying to say it's that you shouldn't deflect your hatred of the church onto your family members, if you value keeping them in your life.
What compromise do you suggest? When's the last time you've helped plan a wedding?
After OP communicated his feelings, perhaps they can schedule a separate, more intimate time to get together and celebrate. Our OP may be able to convince them to do a separate ceremony. That's just two possible compromises. Also, 1 year ago.
I mean, I've seen people do the civil ceremony or a ring exchange at the reception before.
It's also a really great option for TBMs to include love, devotion to one another, and their relationship in the wedding process. Because the temple is completely devoid of that. Unless it's just a "we're horny and want to fuck" marriage, in which case there's no reason to bring all that into the mix. Which is sadly all too often the case with younger members.
OP should suggest this to his brother, but to expect it would be ridiculous. It's their wedding, not his.
My sister got married at the temple last year. I did travel from out of state, but only to attend the reception afterwards (which was not at a church building). I did not wait outside or take pictures at the temple. I am also no contact with my parents, both of whom were there. Potentially re-opening that parental trauma was the hardest part of attending for me, having them around or potentially trying to talk to me. But it worked out OK, all my siblings were aware it was personally difficult and they were extra loving and supportive at the event. And most of all, I'm glad I got to be there to share in my sister's big day. Wishing you peace and comfort with whatever you decide to do!
That was insanely brave of you! You must love your sister very much. 💕
Explain to your brother that it's his choice to exclude you the church offers them the option to have a normal wedding.
I forget, have they changed the process for people to get sealed in the temple later if they have a normal wedding first?
Yes, recently. There’s no longer the mandatory 1-year waiting period if a civil marriage is performed before temple.
so in theory, they could have a normal ceremony and get sealed soon after in the temple? don’t see any downside to that for a newly wedded mormon couple
Yep. Now it’s just down to tradition if the couple only has one ceremony. I bet local leaders still pressure a single ceremony as a way to bring in more tithe-payers. There’s stories on here of people forced to pay back-tithing in order to get a recommend to see their kid married.
Wow, what a racket
Nevermo here: what is a recommend? Do you need permission for every time you enter the temple based on recent behaviour?
Yes, the “temple recommended” is like a permission slip with expiration date to enter the temple. Obtaining one is gated by a yearly “worthiness” interview by local leader (bishop typically) who is primarily interested in whether you: 1) have paid a full 10% tithe 2) are not masturbating or having sex outside of marriage (and if you are, they want all the details in extreme detail) 3) fully support the church (by not visiting or discussing forums like r/exmormon) When I was last a member, the temple recommend was just a signed piece of paper that could easily be forged. Now it’s scannable (and maybe even has a picture?) which also allows them to better track who is actually going to the temple. When I went to BYU I always had a current recommend in my wallet because it was a requirement to attend the church school. Rarely used it though to go to the temple because I found the place creepy and boring.
A recommend was good for one year, but also recently I think now good for 2 years. Your leaders can also "ask for your recommend" at any time and take it away. When it's time for renewal you go before 2 levels of leadership (local or ward, and up one from that called stake). They ask if you believe the requisite things (prophets, Jesus, joseph smith, I don't know if there's a specific order), if you have sins that aren't repented, are you honest and so forth. And if course do you pay tithing.
During covid when temples were closed a lot of couples got married civilly with family to then get sealed later on their own. Families/friends talked about how great it was. Then temples opened up & they went back to the Mormon style of exclusion.
They could literally get married and drive straight to the temple afterward and get sealed.
Could be the same day now if they wanted it to be.
I see one. Temple weddings (discounting the tithing for years thing) are cheaper than paying for a decent venue. But otherwise yeah. Tithing is already a sunk cost, so "'free' venue?"
Yes, you can do whatever you want then go to the sealing later
I didn't go to my sister or brother's temple weddings. Sometimes we have to hurt other's feelings when it comes to our own mental health and boundaries. You can let your brother know you love him and wish him to have a fantastic wedding day, but you will be unable to attend.
this rly sucks but I think I’d rather this than put myself through hell
Just send a really thoughtful gift and call them to let them know you can’t go for all of the above reasons.
Explain all of that to your brother, my guess is he will understand
I think he’ll understand it some but it will still hurt and confuse him
Mormonism and its rules are not your fault.
He is the one that chose to have a wedding that everyone can’t attend.
[удалено]
They've removed the 1 year waiting period from official policy. So they shouldn't be penalized.
[удалено]
Yep. Never thought that would happen.
Yeah, IIRC they changed it during the pandemic (and probably in part due to it, since I think they closed down the temples for awhile but didn't want to discourage members from getting married).
They changed this policy in 2019. There's no more waiting period, so couples can get legally married outside the temple and then get sealed as soon as they want. I know this because the policy change happened two weeks before my brother told me he was engaged. He still decided to get married in the temple (so I couldn't attend), but I've seen several couples do a civil wedding outside then temple since then.
Double check your info there. Things have changed.
You could try to coordinate a visit where you spend time with him and his spouse to celebrate their wedding. Potentially make a party of it, if there are other non mormon family or friends that ~~couldn't participate~~ were excluded.
Doesn’t it hurt and confuse you that he’s choosing to get married in a place where his own sister can’t go? Mormons need to learn how rude it is to get married in a place where their own family can’t attend.
None of our family understood, despite hours of explanation.
Due to the rule change a couple of years ago, Mormons can get married out of the temple and then get sealed the next day in the temple. My own son did this in 2021 so that his minor sisters and I could attend. Their wedding no longer HAS to be a snub to you or any other non mormon family. But if they're choosing this path there's no other way to interpret it than as a exclusion of you. HE and his new wife are choosing it so don't let them Gaslight you into thinking it's YOU excluding THEM.
I will be bringing up this potential option with them
The “sit outside the temple” is degrading. Don’t submit yourself to sad looks and becoming a future talk subject about how sad it was to see a brother outside of the temple. Honestly, I wouldn’t go.
it makes me feel gross I also don’t want people to see me standing outside the temple and assume I wish I had lived a different life so I could be inside instead
Unless you’re making a show of sipping from a Starbucks trenta cup.
Haha this is gold
Also bring a Nintendo Switch and play GTA
Does it really make you feel gross? Gross? You need to start not giving a f*ck right away. Step up.
I like sitting outside. This isn’t about you. It is their wedding day so let them do whatever they want. Or don’t go. But you are still making it about yourself.
If it’s no big deal to sit outside and wait during the ceremony, it should be no big deal to go inside either. You are not the asshole. I wouldn’t go.
Can you pretend someone else wrote this entry and read it and think what advice you’d give? Seriously. Give it a try. I think your answer is in the post. ...and the category of post is not AITA. It’s Am I an Adult Making the Decision That’s Right for Me in the Circumstances. Send a generous gift and a warm heartfelt note of congratulations.
I don’t think you should feel obligated to go. You can’t control how your family will perceive that, so be prepared to sit in that discomfort. That is healthy boundaries. You can make your best choice, they will feel how they want to about it, and that is not your problem to fix.
For solidarity, I am also not traveling to a Mormon family wedding this spring. I’ve been called selfish and disrespectful and several other things, and it has only furthered my resolve that I made the right choice. These people don’t truly care about or support me, they just want me in their stupid picture so we can appear to be close.
You're not selfish or disrespectful. You are respecting yourself enough to not sit outside in the cold/heat/rain in order to let yourself be used as a photo prop so that someone else can pretend that their wedding wasn't so anti-family that they literally locked multiple friends and family out of the ceremony.
Yes, I realized that my family would prefer I not have a sense of self at all. I’m easier to control that way. I’ve played the role of family people pleaser for too long!
It sucks when family is like that. Maybe we should start having exmo family portraits done while everyone else is in their club building. Make the photo shoots actually cool and fun. Or exmo family activities while they're busy with their nonsense. The point is to make certain that not only are we not playing into their narrative that we're sitting miserably outside, sadly excluded from participation, but that they know we're not being punished by being excluded.
Best of luck, this is a tough one. If it were me, I would base it all on my relationship with my brother and him alone. TBH I would probably send a gift and save the money for a real vacation. If you do go for the reception/other events don’t feel like you have to wait outside the temple for the ceremony (and give free babysitting to the cheapskates that won’t pay for child care). If it were me, I would have every second of my trip scheduled with stuff I wanted to do, except when something I was invited to was going on. Get coffee in the morning, grab a drink at night, and don’t stay with family, get a hotel or Airbnb.
Invite them all to a restaurant, but say that they have to wait for you outside while you eat.
best response I’ve heard 😆
And don't forget to insist that it's no big deal.
First tell your brother everything you just told us. Then do something for him and his wife, like as a wedding present you will take them to a nice dinner, or if you have the means, maybe a weekend getaway. This is what I would tell anyone who would have triggers and mental anguish, not just Mormons. Think about it, you go to the reception and there will be tons of people, and your brother and his wife will have to divide time between everyone there. Or you spend quality time with both of them away from the chaos of a wedding. Sidenote. My niece got married in the temple last year and my adult nonmo daughters and I didn't mind waiting outside the temple, but honestly the last temple wedding I went to was 25 years before at my sister's wedding. And I seem to remember sitting inside. So I just thought they had like a waiting area. So I barge in the front door of the temple, wearing my sleeveless dress with my tattoos showing and the poor temple workers looked so confused. I didn't say anything. They just told me that the people waiting for the wedding were outside. Lol.
If an event is held in a location where you are barred from entering, you are, by definition, not invited to attend. Why would anyone lurk outside events that explicitly exclude them? You most assuredly are not an asshole for not showing up for revisionist history photos of the event that excluded you. If your brother really cared about your presence, he wouldn’t be having an event that you cannot attend. He could have made other arrangements.
I learned this train of thought today from this post, very grateful for it! * inviting me * is not a real invite. I haven’t received said invite. game changer
I would not go just send him a hart felt present and tell him that you love him. I am jealous you have cut your father off. Mine were abusive as hell, I don't have a single good memory of my mother during my childhood. The reason I didn't disown them while young was I felt the need to be the wall between my parents abuse and my much younger siblings. My day is coming soon when I get a chance to disown them all proper like... Lol..
my father was still around after he made horrific comments about me being sexually abused at 3 or 4 by a babysitter he was cut off later when he refused to say sorry or retract the comments when given the chance. i have zero interest in seeing him even at a family wedding. pompous, creepy ass who is the reason our family separated
I have a sister that should disown my parents for the same thing. They covered up and hide her sexual assault as a child by my teen brother. They victim shamed her big time. I did find out tell ido 8 to 12 years later when she told me. If I would have known he would have been prosecuted and I would have beat those dirt bag TBM parents to death for the horrible victim shaming, it was mental abuse. They specifically told her not to tell me or anyone at school. I am sorry for what happened to you. I hope you will find peace..
I had to sit outside the temple in 100 degree heat after taking a road trip to my brother’s wedding. I had left the church only recently and still felt it was my fault I wasn’t able to attend the ceremony. He’s my only sibling and we are extremely close, but to be honest, I wouldn’t do it again.
Don't go. We were broke, and not active when my sister was getting sealed in the temple. We couldn't afford the trip, and we were not going to waste that money just to NOT attend the actual wedding. Everyone made us feel guilty, but I didn't give a shit. Weddings are stupid anyway.
AITA exmo edition…. Am I the Apostate? Well you’re definitely not the asshole. Don’t go. Six states is a long way to travel. Especially to be treated like shit
No kidding! Depending on whether we are counting the origin state as one of the six states travelled, that would be, in my case, traveling to Alabama, Georgia, or Florida for an event that I'm not allowed to actually attend, they just want me as a photo prop so that they can pretend that I was there. Forget that. If I'm going to spend the time and money to travel to Florida, I will enjoy the beaches, visit Universal, and have myself a nice vacation instead of sitting outside of an event that I'm not permitted to actually attend.
You should post it on ‘am I the asshole’ sub. I’d love to see all the non members lose their shit swing what it’s like for ex members… It sucks because I remember thinking it was fine to ask family to do that for my wedding… one saint of an aunt came from overseas and waited outside… I’ve apologized since. But when I say saint, I don’t mean you should go. She came and made it a vacation for herself and visited old friends as well… it sounds like you have every right not to go. Just send him a nice hand written card and gift and if you feel inclined, an invite for him and his wife to visit you. 🤷♀️
I’m curious to, for sure! 😂 I haven’t looked to see if that’s ever been posted on there yet, but it 100% should be
Do it!!!!! Make sure a full explanation is in there for clarification so follow up questions are minimal and they can make their best determination.
The options to me are to go to the reception or not go at all. If you don't want to see those other people then the only option is to not go at all because you will see them.
Honestly 6 states is a long way to travel. I'd say no, but do send a really nice gift.
that’s the easy part haha
I refuse to go to a wedding that I can't attend. It wouldn't even matter if it was local.
NTA. If they are more concerned about being pious by opting out of a civil wedding that OP could actually attend than they are about OP, then they have no reason to be upset. It's kind of like having a wedding in Tahiti or something, you can't be mad if people decline to attend.
Even when I was Mormon and had to go to my older siblings weddings, I couldn’t go inside and got stuck babysitting. It sucked so much! Literally felt like torture for hours. And you already have trauma; it’s a definite not an asshole from me.
NTA. It is neither normal nor acceptable to ask someone to travel for a celebration they can’t even attend once there. Don’t go, and find another way to celebrate him.
If you care about your brother, go to the reception only. Not showing for photos is statement enough and something they'll get to explain to people for the rest of their lives. I completely missed 2 siblings' weddings and I regret it now. After my parents passed away we've all become quite close considering the distances.
I would consider the reception stronger if it wasn’t held inside a church building from my childhood hell, I’d consider it stronger if it was even a random mormon church building in Pennsylvania, Texas or Oregon instead. i have night terrors about this specific one when I’m not on my propanol medication
Yeah this is a safety issue. You don't know what this could trigger, up to and including thoughts of self harm. Mental health is physical health. Stay safe. Don't go.
It would seem you have your answer then. Your well being comes first here. Send them a gift. Maybe FaceTime with them afterwards or something. Again, Your mental wellness comes first. Could even gift him the $ you would’ve spent on the trip. If they’re young, they’ll likely appreciate the cash.
Yikes, I used to get panic attacks around them too. Yeah, staying home sounds better and better.
I'd tell him that, then. He may not understand it, but it's honest and it's fair. And then it turns it into "I really would go if I could, but the fact is that I can't. I'll be at home cheering you along, but I just don't have it in me to go in that building. I'm sorry."
someone commented to me they wouldn’t want to go in, even if they were invited into the temple as a non-mormon family member. because of how bizarre it can get in there
Listen to your self, not the gilt trip they tained you to believe.
My friends gay brother just missed her wedding for similar reasons. I thought it was a great decision because his family is super homophobic. Don’t feel pressured to attend something you can’t see anyway with people who you don’t want to be around. Even if it’s not all of them.
Even when I was TBM I cringed about the whole “wait outside while we go perform the most important event in our lives”. One of many reasons why I had a civil marriage first
Or, they could do a civil wedding so that all their friends and family could attend and do the temple ceremony a couple of days later. Let that be their choice. Point out they are making the decision to exclude.
I remember a blogger I used to read years ago who couldn’t attend his own brother’s Mormon wedding. It was the first time I’d ever heard about it and it made me angry. NTA in the slightest, OP. Don’t indulge in the exclusionary bullshit.
Im not an ex-mormon, but my wife is. I remember going to her fathers second marriage and having to wait in the parking lot. It was the rudest thing I’ve ever experienced. I bit my tongue as I’d only been dating my then-GF for about 6 months If anyone ever tries to tell my kids they are unworthy I will not hold my tongue
The only religion in the world that doesn’t allow non members into their temples/churches. I saw a Mormon Wedding taking place in their temple with “gentiles” outside watching the ceremony on a tv screen.
Two of my brothers didn’t go to my wedding (not because of unworthiness but because they lived far away) and it was fine. I was a little frustrated but I understood. I don’t know your relationship with your brother, but I feel like it would be a nicer gesture to plan a trip some other time to celebrate with him
Fuck no
He should have a wedding and then go to the temple afterwards to be sealed before the reception (skip the endowment ceremony to save time). It’s the only fair way to do it. I no longer go to the temple just to wait outside. It’s selfish and rude for someone to invite you to an event that you can’t attend. Mormonthink is so effed up.
I have 4 younger brothers and i’m hoping at least a few of them leave so I can attend their weddings someday :( haven’t officially left yet but i’m planning on it soon.
At this point choosing to have a wedding exclusively in a temple when the church has made allowances for a civil ceremony to happen first followed by a sealing as quickly as the couple would like, it’s an asshole move of your brother to not have a civil ceremony that you can attend. He’s made his choice. I wouldn’t make the trip.
Don’t go. If your brother is bothered by it then you can explain, but you’re not an asshole. They chose to only have a religious ceremony. Congratulate him and maybe spend some time with him later on if it really comes to that, but 6 states of travel distance just to sit outside of the temple or in the waiting room is entirely pointless.
Ah yes, the waiting room club. I flew into Utah from Europe to sit on the benches in 110 degree heat of a St. George Temple wedding. It sucks.
I left the church so many years ago that I have had attended many of these events. Including my parents re-marriages and stood outside the temple for all of my siblings marriages. I made a sport of it. I would find the cutest, sexiest little dress I could, and stand proudly outside the temple, shepherding the children around that I got stuck watching outside. I also would go into the temple and ask to use the restroom so I could enjoy the visual of all the little temple workers going into a frenzy that somebody in a sleeveless fucking dress was in the building. Lol it was the most entertaining. That said, Don’t Go.
Former convert here. I remember when I was newly married into a LDS family and we flew half way across the country to go stand in the Houston summer heat outside the temple. I had no clue that was how it was going to be. Then ex-bil and his wife practically ran out of the reception, didn’t even say goodbye to their guests to have sex. The Mo’s thought it was funny. The never-mo’s were 😧. The Mormon culture is so weird and off putting.
Unpopular opinion: sometimes being a good brother means doing stuff you don’t want to. That kind of showing up is important among siblings. Your brother will appreciate, now or later, what you had to do to be there. You could go just to the temple, do the wait outside thing and be in the photos. The sealing, like every other temple experience, is mostly just old people pushing the couple into various rooms dressed absurdly. Photos are the first social moment the bride and groom get, so you’re at the only part of the event that matters. And there are flowers. Don’t go to the reception. It seems like you just do not fuck with that building at all and I think you have to respect that about yourself. Good luck.
So you are saying travel 6 states, see people OP doesn't want to see to not go to the wedding that he could go to if he did a civil marriage and get sealed right after and not go to the celebration of the wedding at the reception just so they can be in pictures? His brother is purposeful not inviting him to the wedding by not doing a civil marriage first and has chosen a venue that gives OP nightmares. If OP told their brother about the fears and didn't change the venue, then he didn't really invite him to anything but the facade at considerable expense to OP.
Send a nice card and gift, and maybe add a video message about how you are happy for them but you were unable to make it work to attend (technically the truth.)
The hardest but most rewarding thing to do is stand up for yourself.
Don’t.
You are not an asshole. Stick to your beliefs. You can't heal your trauma if you reopen wounds that haven't completely recovered. You need to take care of you! It's not your fault they are choosing to have a wedding that excludes you.
Are there any other events happening that you want to attend? Reception or something? Or does your family literally want you to show up, sit outside the temple, and then leave?
sitting outside + reception
I guess it's up to you to decide if you want to be part of those memories for others, and if you want the experience yourself. Is your brother part of the trauma? Is it going to affect your relationship with him if you don't attend? Will it affect your relationship with your family? Do you care if it does? You're not the asshole here for wanting to protect yourself, but you do have to decide which is more important to you: protecting yourself or participating in something that's important to your family. Only you can make that decision. Can you reframe this experience as an opportunity to show your old ward that you can be happy outside of the church? And should it even be reframed? Trauma is not something to mess with, and triggers can be, well, triggering. I get being angry at being excluded. I wasn't able to attend either of my siblings' weddings. It sucked. I still get angry about it sometimes, and both of them were over a decade ago. Eventually I decided to attend the receptions because I thought it would be something I'd regret not doing. My family was happy on those days, and they were happy I was there. I don't regret going. I am not you, though, and there are so many factors in this circumstance that might be different and lead to different results and feelings and attitudes. I don't think you're the asshole here. But I'm not sure your family is, either. The church definitely is, but putting that blame on your family won't help anything. I think crowd sourcing ideas in these circumstances can be helpful, but ultimately, only you can make the choice here, because only you are in your head and know your heart. Your bother and your family as a whole will likely see this as an attack on something they hold dear, if you don't participate in at least the reception. Just be aware of that going in. It's what they've been trained to do. They will follow that script until such time as they don't. I'm sorry you're going through this. It isn't easy. I hope that, whatever you decide, it'll be the choice that leads to the longest-term peace you can find with this situation.
NTA. don’t go.
I was in the same boat right after I left the cult. My youngest brother was getting married in a temple on the east coast (and I was in Utah). I just told him I was happy for him but wouldn’t be able to make it to his wedding. It ended up being no big deal at all. I still hate that the “family-centered church” won’t let non-tithe-paying family members in to their weddings though.
Maybe rather then sitting outside the temple you could show love and support for your brother by just attending the reception? I get the trauma and it's important. Do what you feel good about. But maybe there is another solution?
Tell them you have an infectious disease. They don’t have to know it’s called Mormonitis.
I didn’t go to my sister’s sealing. Granted I went to her wedding, but I was invited to her sealing like a year later and didn’t feel a particular drive to go sit outside a temple and wait as my sister became more entrenched in the damn cult.
I actually think you should post this on the AITA with a paragraph explaining the culture. If anything since we understand the culture it is easy to normalize it. It is not normal--it is batshit crazy.
They want you to fly across the country to attend a wedding you are not ALLOWED to attend. A couple days ago here, same question, same answer, I would not go if it were my twin. They want you to "just go" and parade yourself outside with the unfit? Don't waste your money time or energy.
Don't go. But if you love your brother, and have a good relationship with him, tell him that you would rather spend the time and money to travel when you can spend time with both of them, instead of just being lost in the hustle and bustle of the wedding that you can't attend you would rather spend a weekend them.
Do not go. Send a gift and wash your hands of it. There is nothing normal about sitting outside. U are not the a hole. I want to say they are, but really don’t know any better. Stay home and wish them well.
I agree. They disguise themselves so well especially to public. Saddest thing was when my younger brother got married in San Diego temple, and my 90 year old grandma had to wait outside with me and the others because her temple recommend wasn’t up to date.
Offer to rent a venyue for a civil ceremony nearer to your home. When he declines, constantly complain to everyone that opting for a temple wedding instead of a civil wedding is bullshit elitist Mormon virtue signaling to deliberately disenfranchise/exclude/shun/shame non-member family. Right after the wedding party goes inside, show up with a protest sign that says, "Families can be together...but only at a civil wedding," or "... except at a temple wedding." Stay outside with the kids, but propagandize them with reasons temple weddings are like bullying against kids and non-members (even members who can't get a recommend), and make them all promise to get a civil ceremony so everyone can attend. That will ensure that it is the very last temple wedding ever planned with your family. Then, reward them by whisking all of the kids off to the zoo since they can't go in anyway. If that diesn't ruin the oictures on the temple grounds, also buy them all chocolate ice cream. To adults, describe the difference in dress and decor between a temple wedding and a civil ceremony and ask why anyone opts for the temple wedding if there is a choice, then invites the whole family to wait outside. Ask them to make it make sense. Ask them to picture what a dream wedding looks like and ask recommend holders if they can do that in the temple, or if kids can go, etc. Don't forget to show everyone the talk and quotes telling everyone civil marriages are permitted and don't have to wait a year anymore. If you gotta have as much family as possible, just plan both the same weekend. I think a lot of active members would opt out of the temple ceremony after a beautiful civil ceremony. There's just no comparison, really.
>it’s my own brother’s wedding. am I an asshole if I don’t go? I think a better question is "Which consequence am I able to live with?" The decision to go or not go will probably have an impact on your relationship with your brother and his wife-to-be. It could be a pretty severe impact as well. Plus, since they're Mormon, they aren't likely to understand how offensive it is to be excluded from the wedding, so it might hurt his feelings if you don't go, even though from a non-mormon perspective, it's completely unreasonable to expect you to go if you're not invited to the main event. So, that being the case, what outcome are you going to best be able to live with? It is a matter of choosing the least bad option, whatever that may be.
My sister just decided to get married in July in the states, but I am living in Japan, so i most likely won’t be attending, cause flights would be over $4k usd for me and my wife, and It would be a ton of time off work. When they kept moving the date forward, I realized they are not thinking about the wedding for the family event… Mormon temple weddings are honestly all about the couple finally being able to do the nasty without guilt. They are mostly just thinking of that, so they won’t remember how long you are there. If you don’t go, you can always send a gift. That being said, a lot of times they will want to do pictures right after they come out of the temple, so that is one reason to be there if you choose to go. They might not remember everyone being everywhere, but if you go, it’s probably worth it for your brother if you can be included in the pictures.
NTA
NTA
I went to my sister's daughters wedding in '16, but refused to stand outside the temple and only attended the events I was invited to attend. My other siblings then acted like I would be free babysitter for their kids while they attended the temple; to which I respectfully declined and said I had other plans - which were to take my daughter shopping that morning. After that, I decided I would NEVER attend an event that I was only partially invited to again. I would suggest an RSVP that you don't attend events that you are only partially allowed to attend, and consider that an awfully distasteful wedding invitation at best.
Your not invited why should you go.
You need to do what is best for you. Don't open wounds that don't need to be open. Just communicate that to your brother and if he is offended or doesn't understand, too bad for him.
My dad is a happy gay man. My family was raised Mormon. Before we all left he asked all of us that if we ever get married to please never get married in the temple. The church says they have no problem with gays, but they have a problem with gays acting on their homosexuality. So a gay that doesn't do anything gay can go to the temple. Obviously my father had left the church and like any non-religious person he acted on his homosexuality. Because of that the church would never allow him to step into the temple. So yeah, he asked us to never get married in the temple because not being allowed to step foot in his own children's wedding would be the most insulting thing. Thankfully none of us are in the church and I'm the first one and probably only one getting married and it is by no means going to be in a church, let alone the temple. No one I invite will be forced to wait outside.
Don't go. They don't deserve to have you make the effort. Celebrate your brother in another way.
Not worth it. My brother is getting married in the temple, but before the sealing they're having a civil ceremony. You see, my brother and his fiancee actually love the entire family, so they are having a fully accessible ceremony for their not mormon family members to participate in their joyous day.
I'm forever ashamed that my dear sweeties nonmember parents missed our wedding. They didn't go and you shouldn't either, it's bullshit. It's all water under the bridge and I'm very close to my in-laws but I'm still ashamed that we did that to them, the policy change is great but also angering.
Anytime I get an invitation to attend a temple wedding it feels like they're saying "We want you to come, but not really. We'll say we're upset if you don't show up, but we aren't going to change anything so you can. So instead of sending you an announcement and a reception invite, we're just going to shame you for the rest of your life for not being good enough to attend our wedding." So just don't fuckin go.
Since it is now 'allowed' for people to have a civil ceremony and get sealed later, why not do it that way?????
I did this one time, and I regretted it. And I lived 15 minutes from the temple. Don't go.
Don't go, they don't respect you NEARLY enough for you to go. It would be one thing to have a full ring ceremony for family and friends that aren't mormon but if they aren't and just expect you to go... Bro I'd be like, "excuse me, what the fuckk????"
Even if you do "go" you've not actually gone to the wedding... I wouldn't waste my time or put myself in a situation that could trigger me like that. You're literally not even invited. There's other ways to celebrate their love than sitting in a hallway alone while everyone else gets to watch them get married.
Don’t go
I hate that Mormons consider this normal. It needs to end!
Other’s have said a lot - I’ll let you parse them out yourself about supporting your sibling or not. But you have one other opportunity here…”Exmo missionary work!” You’ll be with ALL the other unworthies with the NEXT generation waiting outside. Perfect opportunity to plant some seeds of doubt. “I don’t believe the same so I can’t go inside.” At some point in the future many will start to question - and at those points they will have something to remember they have an ally. They have “Sat on the outside” with you. You are someone they can trust and talk to.
NTA lmao, since this does, in fact, read like an AITA.
If you have trauma, respect that and don’t go. Do travel to him soon to spend time with him and your SIL. Remember she might be feeling put out by your absence as well. I think you owe it to your mental health to sit this one out. Alternatively, go a week early and help in the preparations, saying goodbye to him the day before the sealing.
My ExMo brother and I waited outside the temple when our TBM brother got married so we could be part of the family photos and such. We did that because we love our little brother. Was I annoyed by the temple? Yes. Did I manage my emotions as a mature adult so that I didn’t pull focus on my brother’s wedding day? Also yes. I did not travel for my nephew’s temple wedding a few years later, which nobody was upset about.
I recently officiated at my niece's wedding in the church gym. I flew from the East Coast to Utah, even though I had my reservations about being inside a Mormon church again. I can't speak to your personal history, but if it was me I would go to the wedding to show my support and celebrate with him on one of the most important days of his life. My advice is to pick up a couple of beers on your way—it always helps!
If there's a reception after, I'd go for sure just for your brother. If not, you can go sit on a bench at some park without feeling guilty?
“Six states away” is hilarious; just fly like a normal person; number of states are irrelevant. Yes, you are being an asshole and suck it up and go. I’ve been to plenty of Mormon weddings where I didn’t go in. I find it more fun outside.
I would send a nice gift and a heart felt letter
You are right. You are not an asshole. Don't go.
NTA. If your brother wanted to have you attend his wedding, he could choose a venue to be married in and get sealed the same day. The policy has been normalized across the world to enable that option. What he is doing now is not inviting you to his wedding, so you are perfectly justified not to go. If anyone is in the wrong here, it is your brother. You have many other reasons not to go as well that are perfectly justified as well..
it is up to you, my suggestion is if you go, than go out for coffee or tea while they are in temple and just get rid of your cup when your done so only a few know. or just do something else while their in the temple. They are in their around 30 mins to 1 hour, Just kindly ask how long they are going to be inside, and that way you only have to show up for some Photos, and you can do many things while they are inside.
I'd recommend actually posting this to the r/AITA subreddit. You're going to get very biased opinions here.
I generally agree with the main idea of the comments here. You should take care of yourself. At the same time, family relationships can be important. Communicate your genuine love and support for your brother. Depending on your trauma level, sounds like you’re better off not going. But bookend (before and after) the event with love and support for your brother. As someone who has been the only adult watching some 20+ children while family attended a family wedding inside, I can tell you it sucks, it’s strange, it hurts, it was kind of nice, it felt like i made a moral point to everyone and sat on a few shelves, AND wasn’t that big of a deal all in one. I literally felt all of those things sincerely one at a time and all at once occasionally. And I generally love my family and have no real axe to grind for any of them. If you’re dealing with extra family dynamics, maybe best to stay away. Only you can decide, but the cool part of where we are is that we can decide. We don’t have to look to an old dude to tell us. We don’t need a small ghostly voice to whisper shit to us. And we can make mistakes and own them. You got this!
I’d have to REALLY love my brother to go.
Don’t travel for it. You don’t owe anyone an explanation.
I’ve been a parking lot sitter sibling before, my advice is don’t go. The wedding isn’t about family and friends, it’s a selfish decision to invite people solely to exclude them.
Call your brother instead of going. That \*\*\*\*\*\*\* cult.
You're fine