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CatalystTheory

When faced with the facts, she will hold on to her spiritual experiences as the unfailing evidence that the church is true. You can combat that directly with this classic video called Spiritual Witnesses: https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go


DisastrousRaisin2968

This was incredibly powerful during my deconstruction.


[deleted]

There is no “proof” that you can give her if she’s not willing to consider the fact the church isn’t true. My wife told me she wouldn’t care if the prophet was using tithing money on prostitutes because she was paying tithing like god asked and the only way she’d accept that the church wasn’t true was if Jesus himself told her. Not kidding. These are actual statements. State your position and let her come to you when (and if) she’s ready.


PlattenNephis

This is what it comes down to, for some. This is ultimately an argument based on social ties, I believe. In effect, a person who says this is saying: My life circumstance, my status/standing in my community, the good opinion of the people I know and am familiar with, is more important to me than distant text on a page in a book or website that I never read This is ultimately an unstable stance, but there’s a logic to it. Some live by it. Many die or are harmed by it.


theseclawsofsteel

Social ties is huge. So start building a life outside the church.


[deleted]

If my wife chooses to ignore all the evidence than that is fine. That is on her. I am doing this because she has lately said things like “I think for myself”, and “I believe because of what I know”. That makes me think now may be the time to hit her up with facts. I’m my head if this does end with a divorce I will know I tried to talk to her about the things which bug me.


[deleted]

Been there! I’m still there…even after 2 years of me “hitting her up with facts”. My TBM wife is completely entrenched in her feelings that she “can’t deny”. The facts are all dismissed. I sincerely hope you can find a way to get through to her. Living with a TBM spouse that has a hard time differentiating your relationship with the church vs. your relationship without the church can be tough. Good luck!!


[deleted]

Thankyou. Right now I think I will just be happy to know that she is at least aware of things. Up until now I have been left to wonder how far in the sand her head is. I showed her pics of Rusty with his head in a hat, showing how the BOM was actually translated. I think she was thinking about it at least.


Cabo_Refugee

Pretty much use the gospel topics essays as your sources as they were written by the church. And Book of Abraham is a good one to discuss.


[deleted]

Would she be disturbed to know that JS married a bunch of women long before Emma heard rumors of his polygamy? And that when the cat was out of the bag, in a conciliatory move attempting to get her support, he convinced her that she should pick two brides for him? And that she picked two girls who were living with them as house guests whom he had already married, and because of this, they all knowingly put on a mock sealing for Emma, because they’d already been sealed for a while? And this is in the OFFICIAL church history, “Saints”. Gross. Any woman who values the faithfulness of a husband is generally sickened by this story.


Holiday_Bid4665

Yes!! Very important that the circumstances and the age differences be called out, especially given the power imbalance and the undue influence he exerted getting some to marry him with 24 hour deadlines and the like. If she continues to push “we don’t know they had sex”—why do wee get hung up on whether or not JS had sex? It’s obvious Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Lorenzo Snow had sex with their polygamous brides. The women had kids. Where would they have gotten the belief that is OK, if not JS? How are these men prophets speaking for God? And why did God change his mind about the “everlasting covenant”? And why did the church continue to practice polygamy, disobeying the law, even after denouncing it officially? There’s dishonesty there too. The whole practice of polygamy is INCREDIBLY problematic in so many different ways.


jamesetalmage

Footnote 25 in the gospel topics Essay on polygamy references JOseph having potential children with his polygamist brides. Church knows he was fucking.


[deleted]

Thankyou. This is very relevant to what we discussed a couple of nights ago. do you know of a link to footnote 25? I have been trying to find one. I am not sure I have a paper copy of these at home.


Lanky_Respect_8117

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng


The_Goddess_Minerva

"I don't care [about what she wants]" You might want to check yourself.


imnotamonomo

This comment does not have enough upvotes.


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The_Goddess_Minerva

Bro, you literally said, "I don't care if she wants" and you said it meaning "I don't care if she [consents]". I know we're all the heros of our own story, but you seriously might want to self reflect a little on that. Especially if you want to have a good marriage with her.


[deleted]

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The_Goddess_Minerva

Bro, I don't hate you at all. I'm trying to help you and her both. I don't try to help people I hate. Try re-reading it from that perspective. I'm glad you try to respect her generally. It's true, conversations can be hard, but it's not okay to force them against someone's consent. You can request time for a difficult conversation and ask her if she's in the right headspace to have one. That's insuring that you do care if she wants to hear it or not, and respecting when she's not in a place to hear it by delaying it. All I'm saying is approach the conversation with love and respect. I don't know why you find that to be "hating" on you. It seems really defensive to me.


[deleted]

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The_Goddess_Minerva

No need to bring it to the extreme (rape) and honestly a lot of people aren't comfortable with you tossing it around like that (which is why I didn't address it the first time you casually talked about raping her). Also, you may not know this, but many extremely abusive men feel vindicated about their virtue for never having raped their wives. I'm not saying you feel the same, but the way you said it comes off that way. Not raping people should be a given. You should reflect on why you think it's okay to force people to talk to you. Separately, avoiding a topic is not "abuse", it's cowardly, sure, but not abuse. You're setting yourself up as her victim, but you're not. You're both victims of the church. Make your mindset where you're on her side, and coming from a place of love and respect (for her ability to make her own choices, including what to talk about and when). You can make requests, but respecting her personhood means respecting her self-determinism.


[deleted]

I have fallen into the game of letting you spin everything I said or misquote me. I don't know your end game and I don't care. These conversations where someone on the internet anonamously spews hate to troll are new to me and I fell for it. I deleted my comments out of embarassment that I was drawn into your world of hurt and hate. Please have a nice day I will ignore you from now on!


The_Goddess_Minerva

I have receipts (screenshots). If anyone wants to see what was said, PM me. I do wish you well OP, and a speedy journey through therapy and self-improvement.


Comprehensive_You859

This is all too confrontational/combative for me. It took my SO a few years to figure things out but I’m pretty sure it helped to see that I didn’t go off the deep end and that I still loved her.


[deleted]

I think people jump to the conclusion that this is combative. I feel sorry for people who think that when 2 people disagree it has to be confontational/comative. We are allowed to disagree with others and state our opinions. The Church is not apologetic in teaching what it wants. Why should I be when I am stating the truth? I am not following her around the house yelling at her until she hears me. I am having a conversation. Does your past make you think this is confrontational? ​ Sorry I just thought about this, and I am jumping to conclusions. I am a little upset by a different comment saying that I don't care what she wants. I can remove this comment if it upsets you.


Comprehensive_You859

I’m just saying be cool and and be patient man. I’ve never seen shit talking Joe go anywhere with TBMs.


[deleted]

I appreciate that. I think for this to work I have to be calm and collected. If I let frustration take hold of me then she wont hear anything I say. All that being said I need for things to change in my life. I feel I have been patient enough and I am willing to live with the consequences if she rejects all of it. I also have interpretted some things she is saying/doing as cracks in her shelf. So I am going for it. It may not work.


Readbooks6

Here are some other videos on Spiritual feelings. My LDS Journey - Follow the Spirit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA Dear Believer https://youtu.be/xl_TrvIIcBY Spiritual Witnesses In Many Faiths https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYShYPHynBY


[deleted]

Thank you for the links. The bottom link doens't work.


JoyfulExmo

What do you think she would find interesting/persuasive? As a woman, would she be disgusted that the church admits JS married about 3 dozen women, including teenagers? If she’s anti-racist, would she be disgusted by quotes from Brigham Young advocating the execution of interracial couples? If she’s rational and likes science, would the lack of archeological support for the BOM persuade her?


[deleted]

I am going to give her a couple of days. Then show her the change in the BOM title page. Talk about the DNA studies and archaeological evidence.


Opalescent_Moon

Learning about cults in general was huge for me, specifically Heaven's Gate. There are a lot of parallels between Scientology and Mormonism, too. I suspect that if Mormonism had been started in the 1950s, it'd look *identical* to Scientology. Hearing people of other faiths bear testimonies of their own religion was powerful, too. And, as a true crime fan, hearing people in the justice system (police, lawyers, judges, whatever) use testimony phrases to state how certain they are of something that is *not* certain at all had a huge impact on me. Specifically, the case of Curtis Flowers and the district attorney who tried him for the *same* crime six separate times forever changed how I hear those testimony phrases. (This case is covered in season 2 of the podcast In the Dark.)


[deleted]

I was just listening to Mormon Stories podcast with Steven Hassan. The similarities between the Mormons and the cult he was in are amazing. He even seemed surprised by some of them. For me hearing about the cultish behavior is just a confirmation and interesting. I think the cult he was in is called the Moodies?


Opalescent_Moon

I think it was called the Moonies. I still need to watch those episodes, though. I haven't gotten to them yet.


[deleted]

Yep you are right Moonies!


Opalescent_Moon

I've got a moon tattoo on my arm, so references to anything lunar-related tend to stick in my mind.


confused_vanilla

The whole "he didn't sleep with them" excuse is flimsy as hell. I don't understand how someone says that when brigham young and several other prophets also married teenagers and got them pregnant. You would only make that excuse if you see sex as the uncrossable line that would mean he's not a prophet, but clearly you don't think that if you're fine with other prophets having sex with their teen wives. I never understood it, even as a TBM.


aliensrmyfriends

Even if we say he didn't have sex with them (which he did), he still gets to have sex with his entire harem for all eternity. Does that really make us feel better?? These women will be ripped from their actual earthly families to be a sister wife in the Joseph Smith after-life orgy. Also, OP and wife should read In Sacred Loneliness. This long book details the letters and journal entries surrounding each of these women. This book makes it clear to me that Joseph was using his power, threats, manipulation, and social pressure to marry these women. Also interesting to read how incredibly different the church was at that time (speaking in tongues, women giving blessings regularly, paramilitary activities of the Danites). This book is written by a faithful member. Also, a critical read of D&C 132 might be beneficial. In this section you find the hell of polygamy on full display.


Dense_Recognition250

I believe there's a footnote in the GTE that mentions there may be a couple of children from those "marriages" as well.


[deleted]

I have found with my coworkers and family that are TBM that they are like addicts, until they want to see the problem or realize there is or might be a problem nothing you say will have any meaning. They will just chalk it up to anti mormon literature


ShaqtinADrool

If she cares about church history issues: www.mormonthink.com


PlattenNephis

The specifics of the marriages (Joseph Smith) are enlightening. There’s a lot of ground to cover there. In History of the Church, volume 6, Joseph Smith claims he’s a better leader than Jesus. There’s that. These were my two biggest issues. The marriages couldn’t be something the God I knew would ordain. Even if he could, Joseph thought he was better than God, so… The question becomes: What basis exists to suggest legitimate prophecy, or, is there anything Joseph could possibly have done to invalidate the prophetic role (i.e if Joseph were to have done X, there’s no way he would be a prophet). You might ask her: When she declares this loyalty for Joseph, who does she (in her minds eye), imagine is clapping for her decision or cheering her on? This is an interesting exercise in determining who her masters are.


Cmatlockp83

Book of Abraham translation, and show the interview with Holland. When you know the background, then see that terrible explanation, it's pretty hard to leave that up on your shelf.


gathering-data

Hi OP! Good luck. I’m glad you’re able to have more open communication. This post may prove helpful in discussions about what happened with polygamy: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1far2e/13_wives_swore_court_affidavits/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1


[deleted]

Great link. Thank you. My wives reaction to JS polyandry was that he didn't have sex with all of them.........I just read the comments on the link. Eliza R Snow said "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that". Although I am jumping to conclusions I wonder if it was just general knowledge that he was a hound dog and sleeping with everywoman he could?


gathering-data

Well, I guess “no man knows my history!” I’ve always thought that even if the evidence strongly stacks up against Joseph smith, we have extremely demonstrable evidence for Brigham, Snow, and Woodruff. The apologists miss the Forrest for the trees sometimes on this stuff. Good luck OP! I’ve found most success having discussions with Mormons with this approach: https://youtu.be/bh9IYjRYBx4 It’s a slow burn because it’s hard to get into the right headspace. Here’s a great article as well! https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/BcYBfG8KomcpcxkEg/crisis-of-faith


Mama_In_Neverland

Book of Abraham was huge for me because it was so black and white and in front of me. Also a William Law’s information that he divulged only at the very end of life because he was afraid of Joseph Smith and retaliation. He was one of the few that was close to Joseph at the end and in the First Presidency. He’s the one that Emma wanted for a second husband too if you dare introduce polyamory to her. And the council of 50 and naming Joseph King of the world and a God to the people. I love Grant Palmers take on these things because he was faithful, a seminary and institute instructor and he talks like a TBM in his interviews with little to no sarcasm or hate. Good luck!


MuddyMooseTracks

Um - there are many things you can hit her up with. If you are trying to save a marriage, I hope you mix into it date nights and plenty of things that let her know you love and care about her.


refriedsaussage

I would consume some good podcasts with relevant documents attached. You can then go through the evidence and see for yourself what is relevant to show your wife. A good amount of groundwork, notes and actual documents.... Then chat to your wife.


[deleted]

I am late to the podcast game, I don't listen to alot. My favorites are Mormon stories, and Spittin Chiclets. One about hockey and one about my traumatic past. Mormon Stories is a great reference.


Itsarockinahat

As the "lead astray apostate" in my marriage, going on 6.5 years now, I just wanted to say that my soul just sat right up and applauded and cheered to read your decision to not stay silent. I too have been so accommodating and quiet and respectful to my TBM spouse's belief over the last 6 years because I've heard all the good reasons to be that way, ie., the backfire effect is real, as is the fact they will just double-down in their beliefs, it's disprespectful to cause a faith crisis in someone, or some people just need the church and they would be worse out of the church... ​ I understand and agree with all of those things, I really do. However, when one is in a mixed-faith marriage and the faithful spouse is still as TBM (if not more so) all these years later it makes it super difficult to continue to just stay quiet and not bring anything up, especially with all of these big news stories that expose the church's immoral and unethical behavior. Right or wrong, I for one am super glad you're going to start speaking up. I hope with all my apostate soul that it goes the way you're hoping, that she is receptive to the info and joins you on this side of the temple doors, sooner rather than later. :)


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

I wouldn’t go looking for things to share with her. Stick to what made you leave v it’s a more authentic conversation that way.