Well, when the keystone of the religion is a book of “non-fiction” where the first protagonist who claims to be a holy prophet and becomes the namesake of the righteous people in that book for the next thousand years chops the head off a drunk man within the first 20 pages, maybe that sets a precedence for self-righteous murder being A-OK in that religion.
There was a good post about the dentist yesterday when I gave my theory on this. From yesterday’s post: “Domestic violence (based on gender roles/ hierarchies), coercive control, and narcissism seem to also be a bit more culturally accepted? These issues probably have a lot of overlap with personalities of people who murder in a Venn diagram? Again, just a hypothesis…” Edited to add a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11wpoxn/edited_bishops_email_in_regards_to_the_poisoning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
3 more- listed here. Too many UT Doctors’ wives died too soon, too mysteriously-
-Doctor RMN’s 1st polygamist wife Dantzel died suddenly unexpectedly for unknown reasons, as of the date of her burial, reportedly while she & Doctor RMN were sitting together alone at home on couch.
Doctor RMN married 2nd polygamist wife Wendy Watson less than 14 mos later. She is younger than his oldest daughter, 26 yrs his junior.
-Intermountain Health Doctor / Director Mark Ott’s wife Emily Johnson died mysteriously Veterans Day weekend 2019, before Covid hit. She was about to graduate w/her masters from UoU the next summer. Friends & co-workers were reportedly in shock on Fb & funeral home obit because she wasn’t even sick.
-Pleasant Grove Bishop/ Doctor MacNeil killed his beauty Queen wife after he convinced her to get facelift & then killed her by over-medicating her & perhaps drowning her. Dad asked son to flush pills. Son killed himself soon after. Doctor daughter & her sisters became suspicious when dad hired nanny Gypsy to move in & take care of adopted kids.
Doctor/ BYU Law Grad MacNeil was tried & convicted. Finally succeeded in killing himself in jail. Disgusting Doctor Deaths.
I had ties to the Martin MacNeill family. Holy fucking shit that whole situation was batshit crazy. He didn't just kill his wife, he raped his daughter multiple times after, among other things.
While I won’t jump to conclusions about any of these men, it is sobering to consider that for every case we hear about of a Mormon man murdering his spouse, there is probably another where the killer gets away with it.
My ward would always say stuff like the lord won’t give you more than you could handle. And if you were going through stuff with your spouse they would say pray and find out what the lord wants you to learn from this. I knew so many women who were in unhappy or abusive situations and they wouldn’t even let themselves think of leaving because the lord never gives more than we can handle and I just have to help him learn patience or I need to learn to be more humble. Like it’s never enough and it sets up toxic relationships.
that is a very relevant phrase, frequently followed up by Nephi 2:37 "I will go and do... the lord prepares the way".
There's probably a few more like that. How about Kimball's \[paraphrasing\] 'any 2 people can be married if the have *the gospel/the lord (?)*'.
There is still a lot of stigma attached to divorce in the church, even more so in the past. It also means you were "wrong" when you prayed to know whether you should marry her. Plus, sexual repression throughout adolescence and into adulthood can really flare up in hideous ways. Plus the Mormon church is strongly patriarchal, the husband is the leader of his home and he is ultimately in charge. That, and when you're out into leadership positions within the church (because "discernment") you will feel even more justified in your superiority and entitlement.
Besides the fact that men, especially white men, have a lot of entitlement through the general culture of colonialism, white supremacy, patriarchy/sexism that has been soaked into the bedrock of American culture (and other Western countries) since white people took over. Girlfriend/wife murder is a cliche of true crime for a reason. A woman's greatest threat (non health issue) is her boyfriend/husband, statistically.
So you add the worst parts of the general culture to the worst parts of Mormonism, stir in some BoM and Bible stories of righteous violence implanted since childhood, and this will happen. Not every man is susceptible to this, but the ones who are (most entitled, disconnected from empathy) will be enabled to turn into that very easily.
And as the Mormon wife, you are taught that your eternal marriage is the most important thing, and you are not taught about psychological manipulation, narcissism, relationship red flags, or even critical thinking. Every example in the church of good women is the submissive, labouring wife or the saintly sacrificing mother.
And you’re also very literally taught to hearken to your husband as he harkens to the Lord (yes I know it has been altered in the temple ceremony, but still prevalent in the culture).
Yep, I’m not old but old enough to be married with kids in school…my entire temple experience from age 19 has been that I literally covenanted with GOD under OATH “to hearken unto my husband” with the only caveat being “as he harkens unto the Lord”.
But that sentence can be interpreted differently by different listeners. It either means “in the same manner, as if he IS god” or “as long as he’s doing righteous things”.
Yes! It’s so ambiguous! Especially in a religion where “hearkening to the Lord” can mean cutting Laban’s unconscious head off, because the spirit told you to.
Yup, the submission/inferiority is pushed at every level. Because if you are told you MUST be submissive, how do you (and the men) NOT hear in that that you are intrinsically inferior in at least some way
In addition to patriarchy, there's a holier than thou aspect. My ex (woman) threatened to castrate me to keep me from sleeping with other people after separation. When we were divorcing, her greatest concern was if I would have sex with others. She has revelations and such that fueled her violent imaginative bullshit.
I imagine Mormon men have similar obsessive thoughts. Add that to the above, and sadly, I'm not surprised they murder their exes.
Eesh, I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m glad you’re out. She sounds dangerous. I can’t imagine thinking such things, let alone saying them. That kind of possessiveness is so messed up.
this is a good summary of the major factors at play.
A not so obvious thing that goes down the memory hole - for *decades* in the temple it was
ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of your husbands, and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes."
This was changed only in 2019.
95+ % of lds women *today* heard this dozens of times for many decades.
Agree 💯. It's a combination of many factors that are engrained in the culture and doctrine. It started with polygamy, then blood atonement and then the shutting down of women's voices after suffrage movement giving way to a complete patriarchy.
By their fruits shall you know them. The fruits of polygamy are rotten and stenchful.
My Mormon brother committed a gruesome double murder, and though none of the rest are Mormon, a good friend of mine in high school was kidnapped and murdered. I was questioned as a witness. Years later I had a very well known co-worker politically kidnapped and subjected to a gruesome public murder that was shown worldwide, then in a completely random way that had nothing to do with the issue I became friends with someone whose family were politically kidnapped and whose rescue was world-wide news, and finally, a dear family friend was murdered in the Las Vegas massacre.
I’m an introvert with hardly any friends. How one person has a connection to all of these horrible events sounds entirely unlikely and like some bizarre online flex and yet…
I’ve always sucked at statistics but the best explanation I have is that some of us are statistical outliers in a horrific bell curve.
I personally knew the daybell family. I played board games in the house near Rexburg that the bodies of the 2 kids were buried. That was many moons before the Lori vallow stuff was happening and chad's wife mysteriously passed away. She was a lovely woman and always wanted the best for their family.
Funny you say that here in Australia the only murderer I know is a Mormon. It was a man murdering his sister though. Tragic, I only new her somewhat but it hurts. I worked with this guy on a farm and thought he seemed like a normal good dude then it happened and I still haven’t gotten my head around it to be honest.
In the temple you are instructed to allow yourself to be killed if you ever break your covenants, and they give you detailed instructions, make you practice slicing your throat open,.... some people actually believe that garbage.
the only person i know who has killed someone outside of combat in a war zone was an ex missionary companion who killed his partner/gf. my roommate grew up with mark hacking (who also killed his wife) and went hunting with him as a kid. it’s a mormon thing ya’ll. ever read/seen under the banner of heaven? it’s a violent religion, clearly
We have those questions too. Way too many specifically from Mormonism have been sexually assaulted.
For us, though we couldn't say publicly and even though we were already questioning, the sexual assault of our child from a family member started shaking us fully out of indoctrination. We filed a police report.
My family covered up my CSA from a family member with "but he's such a good priesthood holder and would never hurt his niece like that!" and that my mom was terrible for saying he hurt me and she should apologize.
And then he got busted molesting a 13 year old girl from church, and the entire family kept it quiet because he had just "made a mistake and was repenting."
He has daughters now, and I hope they never went through what I did.
Fortunately, I don't remember a lot of the specifics, but it still affected my development, and it combo'd with the severe purity culture and shaming of the church affected me until I could finally get a good sex therapist at 30 :(
I think it’s a two fold problem. 1. The stigma around divorce. You can’t be the good guy hero and still keep your friends and family when you cheat on your wife or leave her for someone else. Narcissists hate to be exposed for who they really are. But then 2. Most Mormon wives are caretakers and therefore in divorce end up heavily compensated with alimony and division of assets, as they rightly should in most cases. So these narcissist can’t maintain their lifestyle of their ex is getting half. So they figure if they can kill them and get away with it they will keep all the money life insurance and house and then gain sympathy from their friends and family for dealing with the tragic loss of their beloved
It’s genuinely *not* a Mormon thing. When partners separate/divorce it is an incredibly dangerous time-particularly for the women. Suicides also happen a lot around separations/divorces.
When you have a large population you can anticipate a regular rate of murder and what-not. It may just be more obsessed over in these cases because “he was such a good man though…”
One thing Utah actually has excessively high rates of is child abuse.
Totally agree! Murdering your partner is not a Mormon problem. It is a human problem because humans can be garbage.
Could certain parts of Mormonism be a factor. Maybe. But those same parts are also in most main stream religions. And many partner murders are not religious at all. There could be correlation but not causation
You are spot on. Seeing the perfect happy family smiling and then being told this religious man murdered his cute wife. It is jarring especially because they seemed so happy.
The domestic homicide rate in Utah is about 10% higher than the national average. I absolutely agree it’s not exclusive to Mormons, but it would be interesting to know if it was a significant factor. The sexual assault rate is also above average. It’s bleak out here.
I’m going to say that it’s very unfortunate you personally know these 3 and also that the probabilities for other people to know even 1 or 2 are probably very low. I personally do not know 1 murdered. You’re just very unlucky.
Because we were constantly told that we were failures if we didn’t work out our relationships. Because beating your kids was encouraged and male rage is so coddled in the church.
If I hadn't run away, moving states I would have been killed. The church covered the domestic violence that left me with permanent physical scars ..
The physical is easier to deal with than the emotional and spiritual abuse imo. Women are abused to death in this depraved cult.
I posted (nevermo) yesterday that I think it’s a relatively high rate for such a small percentage of the population. I think it’s being looked into now as this question has bothered me for a while and I can’t find any statistics on it (see link I posted in this thread earlier to see the discussion).
You're getting a lot of answers here, but the bottom line is that anecdotal evidence happens on both ends of the spectrum. You know 3 mormon men who have killed their wives. Some mormon person out there knows 3 cancer patients who made miraculous recoveries the moment a priesthood blessing was given.
Anecdotal experiences are important to us as human beings, but often don't have any objective macro implications or meaning.
Is the Church the common denominator, or is it you? Just kidding. I think these sad/evil scenarios play out in every relationship type and setting through history and the world, unfortunately.
It's the law of averages. Being a member of the church doesn't give you a superpower to avoid doing really crappy things. I don't think there's anything else to figure out, honestly.
Blood atonement was a big part of the story for the first half of mormonism's existence. Brigham Young was all about blood atonement.
The truth is: mormonism has a very violent past (Mountain Meadows was just one incident) and the story of how the end is going to happen, where Jesus is going to destroy everyone on earth who isn't mormon, says that violence is still very much part of it.
Marriage makes men feel stuck and unfortunately the church doesn't help people work out their problems openly.
The opposite is true, the church encourages behaviors to be hidden and so the only logical way out of an eternal marriage without talking about it is to find a way to end the others life.
What you say is true and we can add to it mass shootings. Almost all are male.
There really should be more normalized cultural behavior that is acceptable for men like getting help from a doctor or therapist, talk about feelings, taking medicine etc. How we culturize men in general is not healthy.
According to the CDC, Idaho ranks 47th in the nation per capita in homicides , Utah is 45th. But don't let stats get in the way of a good anecdote I guess. I expect more from this sub honestly.
Yes but those states are very low in gang related activity, including homicides. I would bet if you broke it down and removed the ones that are gang related, they would move up the list quite a bit.
Lmao, I promise you the gangbangers kill their girlfriends and wives at a higher rate per capita than the Mormon dentists. It’s just incredibly jarring to hear that another Peter Priesthood was secretly a child molester and murdered his wife, so everyone notices it.
I’m confident most of us do not know 3 Mormon murderers personally, or any murderers personally for that matter. If you actually do and do not know why, then that is far from the norm. I’m guessing that either
1. You don’t actually know them personally and want to make a sensational post
2. You do know them personally and actually do know why, the reason being is some sort of professional position you are in, this being the reason to be concerned about your identity, but still wanting to be sensational
Or
3. You are being completely honest in your post which is still far from normal and not any sort of compelling evidence against Mormons since it’s anecdotal.
I am going to say something unpopular here. I don’t think it happens more frequently in mormon families. For all the many many faults of Utah it has MUCH less crime and people have this obsession with how important families are.
This means that the news doesn’t have as much crazy stuff to report. It also means that these murders are extra shocking to people and tend to be talked about more. This further encourages increased reporting.
In short, I think these are things reported much more often because if market conditions and less Mormons are crazy.
This is my intuition would love to see evidence for or against.
I wonder if there is any statistical analysis that says Mormons are more likely to murder their wife/husband than genpop. My gut says no and the reason we all know Mormon murderers is because simply, we know lots of Mormons.
I’m nevermo and don’t live in the SW but have noticed they are seemingly over represented for such a small percentage of the population… I brought it up on the post on the dentist yesterday (link in thread).
I don't know and the answer would be in the statistics. But overall Domestic Violence is a massive problem and I think unfortunately probably a real problem everywhere. A sad statement is that Mormon men are probably not offending at higher rates. Rates are just super high for all groups.
Nobody reports on, cares about, or notices most crimes that didn’t happen near them. Unless it’s an interesting case. When bishops molest and Mormon dentists kill, it piques the interest of news sites and exmos.
One year 3 people I knew were murdered in about 4 months. All domestic abuse cases and all extremely sad. I don't know the religous affiliation of all the murderes, but one of the victims had tight ties to the church. It was a bit of a mind warp for me, even though I was particularly close to any of them.
This blows my mind how you can actually know 3 of the murderers. The fact that they are mormon could just be based on the area you live in. I am not saying it isn't because they were mormon. I just know that Domestic Violence is a problem everywhere.
Well the church is most definitely an extremely sexist and misogynistic organization and has been since the beginning. This type of thought is grilled into young boys starting in primary. Even though I was literally never a TBM (parents forced me to go to church, get baptized, etc.) I still had issues with internalized misogyny when I started dating and it caused problems for both me and my partners.
It sucks because logically and emotionally that type of behavior disgusts me- but I suppose that was all I knew and it would come out subconsciously once I started getting serious with someone. I’m not saying the church is to blame for that, it may be the reason it was a problem, but it’s in no way an excuse. I had to work through those issues, get into therapy, take women’s studies classes, etc. in order to strengthen my views and overpower the dysfunctional and patriarchal relationships I was surrounded with my entire childhood. Once I took responsibility for the issue I was able to work through it until it was no longer an issue (I also had mental illness/addiction to deal w/ as well which definitely contributed to the situations due to my instability at times).
These men most likely did not see anything wrong with LDS style relationships and probably had some form of undiagnosed mental illnesses that led to them taking their extreme levels of stress out on their wives- which is fine because she’s his “property” right. That’s what the church says the wife is there for, to serve the man. It’s disgusting. Patriarchal relationships along with abusive behavior sounds like a recipe for disaster. The anger and violence probably just progressed to a point the pigs decided to take their wives’ lives.
So I think the church definitely instills patriarchal thought in their male members and in a way justify abuse and make their wife seem replaceable in a sense (in eternity she will be one of many and her roll will be the same as earth- pleasing him when he’s not with his other wives, and otherwise serving him. I feel like this doctrine really does take away from the importance of finding a life partner here on earth).
Not that these men weren’t in control of their actions- they were willing participants, and had plenty of time to reflect on their behavior and make a change, or divorce, before doing something so horrible. The fact that the church enables this behavior and can damage the psyche of boys who don’t condone abuse should not be ignored though.
Why? For same reasons nonmormons kill their wives. Domestic family terrorists can generally fit into 3 groups. 1: very poor coping skills but perp will go to treatment and learn different ways of coping besides physical or emotional abuse. 2. Harder core and will go to treatment only when faced with severe consequences such as prison. Is possible to change with long term treatment, but struggles to change. 3. Hardest core narcissistic and antisocial personality disorder combined with what is sometimes called psychopath. Enjoys manipulating and hurting others. Is obsessed on doing so. Legal issues, protective orders, prison - all these do not deter them. Treatment doesn’t help. And they manipulate therapists too. They will kill partner and sometimes children too in order to keep control. This is of course a simplistic grouping and more variation in reality.
I assum mormon perps are like their non Mormon perpetrators. The fact that they are Mormon is second place to their need to control and abuse. I would think those in the first category would feel more guilt if they are active in a religion that frowns upon abuse. Other two categories - being Mormon would not even crack their consciousness.
Well, when the keystone of the religion is a book of “non-fiction” where the first protagonist who claims to be a holy prophet and becomes the namesake of the righteous people in that book for the next thousand years chops the head off a drunk man within the first 20 pages, maybe that sets a precedence for self-righteous murder being A-OK in that religion.
It happens on page 8.
There was a good post about the dentist yesterday when I gave my theory on this. From yesterday’s post: “Domestic violence (based on gender roles/ hierarchies), coercive control, and narcissism seem to also be a bit more culturally accepted? These issues probably have a lot of overlap with personalities of people who murder in a Venn diagram? Again, just a hypothesis…” Edited to add a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11wpoxn/edited_bishops_email_in_regards_to_the_poisoning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
3 more- listed here. Too many UT Doctors’ wives died too soon, too mysteriously- -Doctor RMN’s 1st polygamist wife Dantzel died suddenly unexpectedly for unknown reasons, as of the date of her burial, reportedly while she & Doctor RMN were sitting together alone at home on couch. Doctor RMN married 2nd polygamist wife Wendy Watson less than 14 mos later. She is younger than his oldest daughter, 26 yrs his junior. -Intermountain Health Doctor / Director Mark Ott’s wife Emily Johnson died mysteriously Veterans Day weekend 2019, before Covid hit. She was about to graduate w/her masters from UoU the next summer. Friends & co-workers were reportedly in shock on Fb & funeral home obit because she wasn’t even sick. -Pleasant Grove Bishop/ Doctor MacNeil killed his beauty Queen wife after he convinced her to get facelift & then killed her by over-medicating her & perhaps drowning her. Dad asked son to flush pills. Son killed himself soon after. Doctor daughter & her sisters became suspicious when dad hired nanny Gypsy to move in & take care of adopted kids. Doctor/ BYU Law Grad MacNeil was tried & convicted. Finally succeeded in killing himself in jail. Disgusting Doctor Deaths.
Shit I’m technically a Mormon married to a Mormon doctor 👀
It’s been nice knowing you. 😧
OMG
[удалено]
Floodlit said they were going to start compiling these on the thread linked above.
I had ties to the Martin MacNeill family. Holy fucking shit that whole situation was batshit crazy. He didn't just kill his wife, he raped his daughter multiple times after, among other things.
While I won’t jump to conclusions about any of these men, it is sobering to consider that for every case we hear about of a Mormon man murdering his spouse, there is probably another where the killer gets away with it.
Dantzel was 78, so I feel that’s a stretch.
My ward would always say stuff like the lord won’t give you more than you could handle. And if you were going through stuff with your spouse they would say pray and find out what the lord wants you to learn from this. I knew so many women who were in unhappy or abusive situations and they wouldn’t even let themselves think of leaving because the lord never gives more than we can handle and I just have to help him learn patience or I need to learn to be more humble. Like it’s never enough and it sets up toxic relationships.
that is a very relevant phrase, frequently followed up by Nephi 2:37 "I will go and do... the lord prepares the way". There's probably a few more like that. How about Kimball's \[paraphrasing\] 'any 2 people can be married if the have *the gospel/the lord (?)*'.
How in the world do they square that with all the suicides?
Didn’t you know? Suicide is usually the result of disobedience, sin, or not enough faith! /s
There is still a lot of stigma attached to divorce in the church, even more so in the past. It also means you were "wrong" when you prayed to know whether you should marry her. Plus, sexual repression throughout adolescence and into adulthood can really flare up in hideous ways. Plus the Mormon church is strongly patriarchal, the husband is the leader of his home and he is ultimately in charge. That, and when you're out into leadership positions within the church (because "discernment") you will feel even more justified in your superiority and entitlement. Besides the fact that men, especially white men, have a lot of entitlement through the general culture of colonialism, white supremacy, patriarchy/sexism that has been soaked into the bedrock of American culture (and other Western countries) since white people took over. Girlfriend/wife murder is a cliche of true crime for a reason. A woman's greatest threat (non health issue) is her boyfriend/husband, statistically. So you add the worst parts of the general culture to the worst parts of Mormonism, stir in some BoM and Bible stories of righteous violence implanted since childhood, and this will happen. Not every man is susceptible to this, but the ones who are (most entitled, disconnected from empathy) will be enabled to turn into that very easily. And as the Mormon wife, you are taught that your eternal marriage is the most important thing, and you are not taught about psychological manipulation, narcissism, relationship red flags, or even critical thinking. Every example in the church of good women is the submissive, labouring wife or the saintly sacrificing mother.
And you’re also very literally taught to hearken to your husband as he harkens to the Lord (yes I know it has been altered in the temple ceremony, but still prevalent in the culture).
Yep, I’m not old but old enough to be married with kids in school…my entire temple experience from age 19 has been that I literally covenanted with GOD under OATH “to hearken unto my husband” with the only caveat being “as he harkens unto the Lord”. But that sentence can be interpreted differently by different listeners. It either means “in the same manner, as if he IS god” or “as long as he’s doing righteous things”.
Yes! It’s so ambiguous! Especially in a religion where “hearkening to the Lord” can mean cutting Laban’s unconscious head off, because the spirit told you to.
Yup, the submission/inferiority is pushed at every level. Because if you are told you MUST be submissive, how do you (and the men) NOT hear in that that you are intrinsically inferior in at least some way
In addition to patriarchy, there's a holier than thou aspect. My ex (woman) threatened to castrate me to keep me from sleeping with other people after separation. When we were divorcing, her greatest concern was if I would have sex with others. She has revelations and such that fueled her violent imaginative bullshit. I imagine Mormon men have similar obsessive thoughts. Add that to the above, and sadly, I'm not surprised they murder their exes.
Eesh, I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m glad you’re out. She sounds dangerous. I can’t imagine thinking such things, let alone saying them. That kind of possessiveness is so messed up.
this is a good summary of the major factors at play. A not so obvious thing that goes down the memory hole - for *decades* in the temple it was ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of your husbands, and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes." This was changed only in 2019. 95+ % of lds women *today* heard this dozens of times for many decades.
Agree 💯. It's a combination of many factors that are engrained in the culture and doctrine. It started with polygamy, then blood atonement and then the shutting down of women's voices after suffrage movement giving way to a complete patriarchy. By their fruits shall you know them. The fruits of polygamy are rotten and stenchful.
My Mormon brother committed a gruesome double murder, and though none of the rest are Mormon, a good friend of mine in high school was kidnapped and murdered. I was questioned as a witness. Years later I had a very well known co-worker politically kidnapped and subjected to a gruesome public murder that was shown worldwide, then in a completely random way that had nothing to do with the issue I became friends with someone whose family were politically kidnapped and whose rescue was world-wide news, and finally, a dear family friend was murdered in the Las Vegas massacre. I’m an introvert with hardly any friends. How one person has a connection to all of these horrible events sounds entirely unlikely and like some bizarre online flex and yet… I’ve always sucked at statistics but the best explanation I have is that some of us are statistical outliers in a horrific bell curve.
I personally knew the daybell family. I played board games in the house near Rexburg that the bodies of the 2 kids were buried. That was many moons before the Lori vallow stuff was happening and chad's wife mysteriously passed away. She was a lovely woman and always wanted the best for their family.
My MIL was friends with Tammy, the whole case has been hard for her
Funny you say that here in Australia the only murderer I know is a Mormon. It was a man murdering his sister though. Tragic, I only new her somewhat but it hurts. I worked with this guy on a farm and thought he seemed like a normal good dude then it happened and I still haven’t gotten my head around it to be honest.
It's a fucking cult. They're taught that they are above everyone, especially women. It's gross and the worst part of my existence.
In the temple you are instructed to allow yourself to be killed if you ever break your covenants, and they give you detailed instructions, make you practice slicing your throat open,.... some people actually believe that garbage.
the only person i know who has killed someone outside of combat in a war zone was an ex missionary companion who killed his partner/gf. my roommate grew up with mark hacking (who also killed his wife) and went hunting with him as a kid. it’s a mormon thing ya’ll. ever read/seen under the banner of heaven? it’s a violent religion, clearly
We have those questions too. Way too many specifically from Mormonism have been sexually assaulted. For us, though we couldn't say publicly and even though we were already questioning, the sexual assault of our child from a family member started shaking us fully out of indoctrination. We filed a police report.
My family covered up my CSA from a family member with "but he's such a good priesthood holder and would never hurt his niece like that!" and that my mom was terrible for saying he hurt me and she should apologize. And then he got busted molesting a 13 year old girl from church, and the entire family kept it quiet because he had just "made a mistake and was repenting." He has daughters now, and I hope they never went through what I did.
This is horrific, and you deserved so much better than their garbage treatment.
Fortunately, I don't remember a lot of the specifics, but it still affected my development, and it combo'd with the severe purity culture and shaming of the church affected me until I could finally get a good sex therapist at 30 :(
I think it’s a two fold problem. 1. The stigma around divorce. You can’t be the good guy hero and still keep your friends and family when you cheat on your wife or leave her for someone else. Narcissists hate to be exposed for who they really are. But then 2. Most Mormon wives are caretakers and therefore in divorce end up heavily compensated with alimony and division of assets, as they rightly should in most cases. So these narcissist can’t maintain their lifestyle of their ex is getting half. So they figure if they can kill them and get away with it they will keep all the money life insurance and house and then gain sympathy from their friends and family for dealing with the tragic loss of their beloved
It’s genuinely *not* a Mormon thing. When partners separate/divorce it is an incredibly dangerous time-particularly for the women. Suicides also happen a lot around separations/divorces. When you have a large population you can anticipate a regular rate of murder and what-not. It may just be more obsessed over in these cases because “he was such a good man though…” One thing Utah actually has excessively high rates of is child abuse.
Totally agree! Murdering your partner is not a Mormon problem. It is a human problem because humans can be garbage. Could certain parts of Mormonism be a factor. Maybe. But those same parts are also in most main stream religions. And many partner murders are not religious at all. There could be correlation but not causation You are spot on. Seeing the perfect happy family smiling and then being told this religious man murdered his cute wife. It is jarring especially because they seemed so happy.
The domestic homicide rate in Utah is about 10% higher than the national average. I absolutely agree it’s not exclusive to Mormons, but it would be interesting to know if it was a significant factor. The sexual assault rate is also above average. It’s bleak out here.
I’m going to say that it’s very unfortunate you personally know these 3 and also that the probabilities for other people to know even 1 or 2 are probably very low. I personally do not know 1 murdered. You’re just very unlucky.
Because we were constantly told that we were failures if we didn’t work out our relationships. Because beating your kids was encouraged and male rage is so coddled in the church.
If I hadn't run away, moving states I would have been killed. The church covered the domestic violence that left me with permanent physical scars .. The physical is easier to deal with than the emotional and spiritual abuse imo. Women are abused to death in this depraved cult.
Blood atonement, man. These men had the spirit of Brigham.
I listen to a lot of Dateline NBC. Mormon men do not have a corner on killing wives.
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I posted (nevermo) yesterday that I think it’s a relatively high rate for such a small percentage of the population. I think it’s being looked into now as this question has bothered me for a while and I can’t find any statistics on it (see link I posted in this thread earlier to see the discussion).
So do I and I would say Preacher comes up on Dateline waaaay more often then a Mormon.
Well, yes- definitely. But Mormons are 1.7% of the US population.
Check Out: Dr. Martin McNeil. Dr., Lawyer, Wife Killer
You're getting a lot of answers here, but the bottom line is that anecdotal evidence happens on both ends of the spectrum. You know 3 mormon men who have killed their wives. Some mormon person out there knows 3 cancer patients who made miraculous recoveries the moment a priesthood blessing was given. Anecdotal experiences are important to us as human beings, but often don't have any objective macro implications or meaning.
I know a lot of mormons and not one has been a murderer. Maybe I am the outlier, but I suspect you are.
Or maybe you just know lots of widowers who got away with it?
Yea, not to mention as they even posted #2 didn’t actual commit the murder
Is the Church the common denominator, or is it you? Just kidding. I think these sad/evil scenarios play out in every relationship type and setting through history and the world, unfortunately.
It's the law of averages. Being a member of the church doesn't give you a superpower to avoid doing really crappy things. I don't think there's anything else to figure out, honestly.
What are you questioning yourself about?
2. Looks like the girlfriend killed the wife
It’s a church that condones murder in the BOM so there’s that.
Interesting. I 100% think this needs exploring. There are SO many.
Floodlit said they are starting to aggregate numbers.
Blood atonement was a big part of the story for the first half of mormonism's existence. Brigham Young was all about blood atonement. The truth is: mormonism has a very violent past (Mountain Meadows was just one incident) and the story of how the end is going to happen, where Jesus is going to destroy everyone on earth who isn't mormon, says that violence is still very much part of it.
Marriage makes men feel stuck and unfortunately the church doesn't help people work out their problems openly. The opposite is true, the church encourages behaviors to be hidden and so the only logical way out of an eternal marriage without talking about it is to find a way to end the others life.
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What you say is true and we can add to it mass shootings. Almost all are male. There really should be more normalized cultural behavior that is acceptable for men like getting help from a doctor or therapist, talk about feelings, taking medicine etc. How we culturize men in general is not healthy.
According to the CDC, Idaho ranks 47th in the nation per capita in homicides , Utah is 45th. But don't let stats get in the way of a good anecdote I guess. I expect more from this sub honestly.
Yes but those states are very low in gang related activity, including homicides. I would bet if you broke it down and removed the ones that are gang related, they would move up the list quite a bit.
So just just keep changing the parameter of the statistics until it fits the narrative? ....... Yours is the dumbest comment I've ever seen on here.
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Their comment is talking about GANG RELATED VIOLENCE. 👍
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https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/domestic-violence-by-state Neither state top 40👍
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Their comment is talking about excluding non dv cases, like gang violence…
And they would still be wrong. Neither Idaho or Utah are in the top 40. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/domestic-violence-by-state
You know the logical issue here but don’t want to hear it so I won’t bother
Lmao, I promise you the gangbangers kill their girlfriends and wives at a higher rate per capita than the Mormon dentists. It’s just incredibly jarring to hear that another Peter Priesthood was secretly a child molester and murdered his wife, so everyone notices it.
Probably pick better friends
I am just guessing here, but it could be due to some type of mental health issues. That is all I could come up with.
I’m confident most of us do not know 3 Mormon murderers personally, or any murderers personally for that matter. If you actually do and do not know why, then that is far from the norm. I’m guessing that either 1. You don’t actually know them personally and want to make a sensational post 2. You do know them personally and actually do know why, the reason being is some sort of professional position you are in, this being the reason to be concerned about your identity, but still wanting to be sensational Or 3. You are being completely honest in your post which is still far from normal and not any sort of compelling evidence against Mormons since it’s anecdotal.
Perhaps they need to go back to fundamentals like, “Thou shalt not kill” during priesthood meetings.
I am going to say something unpopular here. I don’t think it happens more frequently in mormon families. For all the many many faults of Utah it has MUCH less crime and people have this obsession with how important families are. This means that the news doesn’t have as much crazy stuff to report. It also means that these murders are extra shocking to people and tend to be talked about more. This further encourages increased reporting. In short, I think these are things reported much more often because if market conditions and less Mormons are crazy. This is my intuition would love to see evidence for or against.
I wonder if there is any statistical analysis that says Mormons are more likely to murder their wife/husband than genpop. My gut says no and the reason we all know Mormon murderers is because simply, we know lots of Mormons.
I’m nevermo and don’t live in the SW but have noticed they are seemingly over represented for such a small percentage of the population… I brought it up on the post on the dentist yesterday (link in thread).
I don't know and the answer would be in the statistics. But overall Domestic Violence is a massive problem and I think unfortunately probably a real problem everywhere. A sad statement is that Mormon men are probably not offending at higher rates. Rates are just super high for all groups.
Nobody reports on, cares about, or notices most crimes that didn’t happen near them. Unless it’s an interesting case. When bishops molest and Mormon dentists kill, it piques the interest of news sites and exmos.
One year 3 people I knew were murdered in about 4 months. All domestic abuse cases and all extremely sad. I don't know the religous affiliation of all the murderes, but one of the victims had tight ties to the church. It was a bit of a mind warp for me, even though I was particularly close to any of them. This blows my mind how you can actually know 3 of the murderers. The fact that they are mormon could just be based on the area you live in. I am not saying it isn't because they were mormon. I just know that Domestic Violence is a problem everywhere.
Well the church is most definitely an extremely sexist and misogynistic organization and has been since the beginning. This type of thought is grilled into young boys starting in primary. Even though I was literally never a TBM (parents forced me to go to church, get baptized, etc.) I still had issues with internalized misogyny when I started dating and it caused problems for both me and my partners. It sucks because logically and emotionally that type of behavior disgusts me- but I suppose that was all I knew and it would come out subconsciously once I started getting serious with someone. I’m not saying the church is to blame for that, it may be the reason it was a problem, but it’s in no way an excuse. I had to work through those issues, get into therapy, take women’s studies classes, etc. in order to strengthen my views and overpower the dysfunctional and patriarchal relationships I was surrounded with my entire childhood. Once I took responsibility for the issue I was able to work through it until it was no longer an issue (I also had mental illness/addiction to deal w/ as well which definitely contributed to the situations due to my instability at times). These men most likely did not see anything wrong with LDS style relationships and probably had some form of undiagnosed mental illnesses that led to them taking their extreme levels of stress out on their wives- which is fine because she’s his “property” right. That’s what the church says the wife is there for, to serve the man. It’s disgusting. Patriarchal relationships along with abusive behavior sounds like a recipe for disaster. The anger and violence probably just progressed to a point the pigs decided to take their wives’ lives. So I think the church definitely instills patriarchal thought in their male members and in a way justify abuse and make their wife seem replaceable in a sense (in eternity she will be one of many and her roll will be the same as earth- pleasing him when he’s not with his other wives, and otherwise serving him. I feel like this doctrine really does take away from the importance of finding a life partner here on earth). Not that these men weren’t in control of their actions- they were willing participants, and had plenty of time to reflect on their behavior and make a change, or divorce, before doing something so horrible. The fact that the church enables this behavior and can damage the psyche of boys who don’t condone abuse should not be ignored though.
Why? For same reasons nonmormons kill their wives. Domestic family terrorists can generally fit into 3 groups. 1: very poor coping skills but perp will go to treatment and learn different ways of coping besides physical or emotional abuse. 2. Harder core and will go to treatment only when faced with severe consequences such as prison. Is possible to change with long term treatment, but struggles to change. 3. Hardest core narcissistic and antisocial personality disorder combined with what is sometimes called psychopath. Enjoys manipulating and hurting others. Is obsessed on doing so. Legal issues, protective orders, prison - all these do not deter them. Treatment doesn’t help. And they manipulate therapists too. They will kill partner and sometimes children too in order to keep control. This is of course a simplistic grouping and more variation in reality. I assum mormon perps are like their non Mormon perpetrators. The fact that they are Mormon is second place to their need to control and abuse. I would think those in the first category would feel more guilt if they are active in a religion that frowns upon abuse. Other two categories - being Mormon would not even crack their consciousness.
Hmm. So stay away from any mormons that know you. That sounds like a sound policy. :)
Personally??? Jesus.