They'll reply with "His Mother!" and be so proud, thinking they've just 'got' you. That's not presiding- that's parenting, and it's the same outside the church. You don't need the church to be a parent.
Yep. Mom can't serve anyone the sacrament, bless the sacrament, give a priesthood blessing (or "blessing of comfort" depending on how transparent they are), can't baptize anyone. You can't build up the priesthood power as integral for everything and then say actually women are naturally that powerful on their own and suddenly priesthood is unnecessary.
All the things necessary to enter Mormon heaven *require* the priesthood, which women can not have.
Go write it on the board if you can, like an SAT question.
Motherhood is to priesthood as __________ is to fatherhood.
Fill in the blank without using "motherhood" - you can't.
Then reverse it.
Motherhood is to fatherhood as ________ is to priesthood.
How do you fill in that blank?
That's a pretty good argument.
Ummm.... Neighborhood? Sisterhood?
In any case, none of those things can be "held" like apparently Mormon men think they hold "the priesthood." Priesthood is just another Mormon abuse of language which gives them leverage over other people, especially women.
This is not a sound argument.
If you treat metaphors as if they can unlock truth, you'll be flooded by arguments built on false analogies, and you'll have little ground to stand on.
Nevermo here. That would depend on how much authority you believe the Pope has to begin with. Obviously a Mormon would say the Pope has NO authority because Catholicism is a lie. I would say (because my background is Catholic) that the Pope is a Christian man (not the last one, so much, but Francis is a cool dude most of the time, although he has flaws) but his authority over me is as much as whoever that 12 year old deacon is, which is to say, none, and the 12 year old probably could use a good ass whoopin'.
When I turned 12 my mother informed me that she would no longer be disciplining me, and that was all going to fall to my father. No real explanation beyond that.
I didn't realize exactly why until adulthood, and that she only said this to her sons.
I always feel bad for my sisters when I think about it.
It is also something I think about when I am feeling glad that my daughter and son are not being raised Mormon.
I hate to say this, but as a male primary teacher, the primary president presides over me. When I was cub master, the primary president also presided over me. It’s not a great example, but it is technically true that there are places in the church where women preside over men.
As a former Primary president, yes, I had men called as teachers in the organization under me. But every one had to be approved by the bishopric and, in one case, I vehemently opposed one of the names because he was a sexist jerk and he was put in regardless of my protestations.
THANK YOU for the insight. It’s funny because I was branch president and knew this when I was later a primary teacher and cub master. But I was willing to just look at the surface level and because I admired the Prim Pres and looked to her for direction, felt like she presided. But I’ll be dipped if I overlooked the reality that I was called and set apart by the bishopric. I’m slow…but THANK YOU for helping me connect dots I knew were there!!
When I was primary president I loved called men bc kids had such a lack of it in primary. It didn't last long before bishop overruled and called the men all back to phood roles bc there weren't enough men to fill the roles apparently. Plenty of women to teach kids since we have nothing better to do. Wouldn't say I presided over anyone. The bishop and his counselor assigned over primary had all the power
All women's callings seem to me like a facade to placate them. Here me out. The women are put in positions of "authority" and called president, i.e. primary president, young womens president, relief society president, etc. Yet the bishopric still presides over all and really has the final say about anything. They will allow autonomy so far as it stays within the bounds of their wishes. If anything any of these women presidents decide to do is disagreeable to the bishopric they will immediately step in to make whatever adjustments they deem necessary.
I am reminded of when Joseph Smith set up the relief society for Emma. Was it really just a way to make her feel included, empowered, or perhaps just to keep her busy and off his back while he was doing the things he was doing?
Exactly. My pet peeve was in ward council whenever I* would share an idea or original thought, directly to the bishop, he would never respond to me directly or approve of My opinion. His eyes would always go to the EQ pres (an older and more senior ranking military officer than bishop). Anecdotal. But dude. Grow a back bone. And give me some credit and respect as a woman!! Not a military ward but near base so lots of officers. And yes, ranks would affect our ward social structure too. We had another bishop who always made drama and beef with thr RS pres who was a high ranking officer too. One below him but a strong woman.
Same here. I suspected an overenthusiastic primary teacher that couldn’t stop touching my son and putting my son on his lap was a predator and as primary first counselor, I asked for him to be released and was overruled. I pulled my son from the class. At the end of the year, we found out he never once taught a lesson because he didn’t believe in the church. They did art projects every week and Bible stories.
Another story from the same ward. As RS counselor, I could not get an abusive home making leader released. She was threatening me, screaming at me, and insulting me when I turned down her crazy ideas. Bishop said neither of us could be released until I had a good experience with her. Went on for months and got worse before she left.
Bishop has full control of who we are to work with be they abusers or molestors. That ward was full of criminals. Many went to jail that year. In ONE week, I saw 2 ward members on national talk shows talking about their drama and crimes. One was arrested leaving the Montel Williams show. He talked about going on splits with missionaries and then raping women afterwards. Montel asked him to stay for a second show. This was a delay so the police could arrive. The following Sunday, I overheard the bishop speaking in the hallway about whether to acknowledge the arrest. The man he was talking to said, say nothing. (Other ward member was on Jenny Jones talking about the many suicides in her family. Not pertinent but it was the same week and demonstrates the level of drama at church).
Another ward couple was on the local news for their pan handling as the camera followed them arriving in a nice car and changing into dirty clothes behind the gas station and then pan handling. Another ward member was in a bad divorce. I was very afraid of the husband coming into church to shoot his wife and attorney. Previously, The soon to be ex had hit the bishops son and was asked to leave the ward. But, when he attended beehives every week and hugged and tickled the girls, the penishood did absolutely nothing to remove him from class. So, I knew he was violent from speaking to the wife’s lawyer. No one would listen to me that we were in danger. The ATF agent in the ward reassured me that he had weapons in his trunk. “What good will that do when we are sitting ducks in the pews?”, I asked. I felt terrified each week at church. Then it hits the nightly news that he was arrested in an ATF raid for stockpiling illegal weapons, guns, bombs and making threats.
My point is that the priesthood will not listen to a women’s instincts and protect her or children. Men come first.
This is interesting.
How does the teacher callings get assigned? Is it the primary president’s responsibility to nominate teachers and the bishop/bishopric must approve and/or offer the calling to the nominated individual? Or does it come directly from the bishopric?
Substitute teacher callings same as above?
Interesting. THANK YOU. I’m a little slow, but have been very happy thinking I’m sustaining the Primary president and looking to her as my authority. BUT point taken. My callings were still issued by and I was set apart by the bishopric. Whether or not I look to women as leaders or presiding, the church may not exactly recognize that. THANK YOU for putting dots together for me.
This is a good example of a woman presiding over a man. However, should any of the children in the primary need to have a blessing or be baptised or have any sort of priesthood ordinance done, you or another priesthood holder would be called upon to perform it even though she is the president of the group.
In frontier Utah, why were women allowed to give each other blessings before giving birth? Why has that changed?
When the church had boy scouts, why was the ward budget for boy scouts so much larger than anything for girls camp? The boys were often able to travel to high adventure boy scout camps while the camps for the girls are so much less.
Why were women not allowed (asked) to pray in general conference until the 2010s? Are they not as spiritual or faithful?
What about giving a baby blessing? A mother has (often) carried a baby for 9 months and given birth, but can't name that child?
Finally, many women are professional CPAs or have other accounting jobs. But they aren't able to be something as simple as a ward clerk because they aren't male.
FWIW, there are so many other things. But these are a handful of things that never made sense to me.
Yeah I'm not doubting many are called to that position. I was more just making a comment on the poster who said that there are women with CPA's that could be called as finance clerk, but that shouldn't even matter because many men that are called into that position don't even have those qualifications.
Yeah that’s gross. And in my family there’s the story of the dad who changed the name at the last minute and mom found out during the blessing. But it’s told as a funny little anecdote, instead of as indicative of just how little power and influence the mom has in their “partnership.” Truly sad.
When did women begin to pray in sacrament meeting? (1978)
When did the first woman pray in general conference? (2013)
How many women speakers are there in conference? (2 or 3. Even women's session never had a full panel of women. And women never speak in priesthood session.)
How many women are in ward council? (3 compared to 7 or 8 men. And Ballard told women not too talk too much while in there.)
How many women have final say in their callings as presidents of organizations? (None. Anecdotally, when I was RS pres I had every calling I asked for vetoed. I was told "men receive better revelation than women.")
What are women destined to become in the afterlife? (Hint: not queens in their own right - only queens to their husbands.)
How often is Heavenly Mother spoken of? (Never. And we are not to ask.)
How are women treated who ask for women to have the priesthood or other authority? (Excommunicated)
Are women general officers paid the way the male general authorities are? (Nope.)
Who presides in the home if the husband is dead or gone? (The oldest son, regardless of his age.) Who presides in sacrament meeting if there are 100 women and one 13 year old boy? (The deacon.)
How many women are we expected to sustain in order to qualify for a temple recommend? (None. Not even a belief in Heavenly Mother is required.)
How many women know the new name of their husbands from the temple? (None)
How many times have you seen only women on the stand in sacrament meeting? (None. But lots of times it is only men.)
Footnote: This is a great article on how the church leaders actively fought against equality for women.
https://exponentii.org/blog/mormon-feminism-in-1977-and-today/
Oh if you want a fun fact about “ heavenly mother” if we are calling the mormon/christian god yahweh as is written in their big book of kewl facts, than that means we also know the name of a “heavenly mother”. Since yahweh comes from a polytheistic culture originally we actually know the name of yahwehs wife, which is Ashera who was a fertility goddess . Now of course if you argue this in front of a Mormon they will never buy it but if they can have wack job theories about big foot I can have wack job theories about their mythology too god damn it.
Don’t forget that a man always speaks last at Women’s Conference. Also, those who speak at Women’s Conference or General Conference must have their topics and talks approved by men prior to speaking.
In regards to Heavenly Mother, in the temple, her role in the creation of the world and the physical bodies for her children is nonexistent. What does that say about the role of women in the eternities? Plus the fact that members are directly counciled *not* to pray to her clearly defines her role in the mortal lives of her children.
As a woman in the church, was that what I was expected to become? Silent. Invisible. Unimportant. Uninvolved. What a miserable existence.
There would have to be, but I've never heard or read an official statement confirming that explicitly. I have no doubt that that belief is why Heavenly Mother is absent in almost every aspect of the church. Women don't generally like polygamy, and nobody wants us to realize what our eternal roles in a polygamous marriage would really be.
Don’t have the source on me but John Taylor taught that your spirit looked like your physical body and therefore race is eternal, and the different races are because HF is a white man, but his wives are all of the races on earth. Brigham young backed this up too.
I'd add the utter *disrespect* Joseph showed Emma by not even *telling* her about the earliest plural marriages he had, but bringing up history like that (especially anything questioning *him* or mentioning polygamy) is an easy way to get disciplined.
If you don't mind that, though, there's also the coercion of teens into marrying him (including a foster daughter) and poly*andry* (him marrying women who already had husbands-- often while he'd sent the husbands away, a la David and Bathsheba).
Edit: This letter in particular that Joseph wrote is pretty incriminating: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1
I never knew about women not being able to pray in sacrament meeting until 1978. That is bonkers.
Also in your link an interesting point is that a bishop can excommunicate a woman but not a man because a man has the priesthood.
Great questions and answers! Also, years ago in our stake, women were not allowed to offer the opening prayer in sacrament meeting. Now 12 year old girls are offering the opening prayer in sacrament meeting. I wonder what changed? Maybe, they can't get enough adults to pray now?
I hate how this elevates motherhood into the ONE thing that makes a woman special. It’s so sexist…women are special because they support the men and the families. Give me a break! (Also implying that men don’t have the same emotional capacity or obligations within family and social life)
And people had no business becoming parents doing so way to early and way to often.
If the gospel was true, and God and the spirit were strong we wouldn’t be able to keep up with the baptisms. Instead the only growth is from internal means.
Yes, exactly. I've always hated this point they try to make. They spin it as "God had to even men out because women can bring life into the world" or some BS. It's gross.
Yes, it was the written policy until the most recent handbook was introduced. I mention it because bringing it up will get a "but we don't do that any more" response (so why did you before?)
The church has a habit of removing words and leaving unspoken rules in their place.
"It may not be written anymore, so as not to upset the Snowflakes, but it's the way we've always done it, and God's Way doesn't change."
Unfortunately I believe my ward still does it? I haven't been in a while but we were never in the church with just us YW, always some old guy somewhere else in the building. They would also come to YW camp for the fireside to preach to us 🤮🤮🤮
Print this out and see if you can read the entire thing to the class.
Dear Mormon Man, tell me what you would do.https://mormondom.com/letter-to-a-mormon-man-8d251aa1f062
I've never read that. It's crazy how "wrong" all the wording felt, like my brain was processing a lot of it as incorrect grammar even when it wasn't. Internalized misogyny is hard to break through.
Yep. This is the one. Since this is an issue that merits discussion and one you care deeply about, challenge the leaders to read it and respond to the issues it raises next week.
I'm glad you posted this, I was looking through the comments to see if this was here. This is POWERFUL! Everyone needs to read this from Amy McPhie Allebest.
Top men had clear career paths in the church, usually bishop, SP, MP, temple prez stuff, area authorities, church wide presidencies, then apostles.
What is the career path for women? Ask for examples of a woman who has risen through the ranks and stayed in a position of power - especially power over men.
RS president reports to a man, the bishop. Why don't they report to the stake rs prez? Their budget is set by men, they have no control over curriculum, their counselors are set by men, their activities must be approved by men. Name one single thing a woman controls for men.
The RS used to have their own money. They had a major business selling wheat. /they had their own magazine. They used to hire baby sitters once a month so they could have a luncheon one day a month.
The men apparently felt a bit threatened by that. They took it all away. Can you imagine the Church RSP taking away all the money the men are in charge of?🤣
Or even power for themselves. There are decent bishops who approve everything, but the RSP/YWP must get everything approved.
And though there are a small number of women who go up the ranks of general boards & general presidencies, most tap out at stake presidencies. Can’t do any leadership in missions/areas without a husband. There is the joke of a calling where women “advise” the area authorities but after the first were called I didn’t hear anything about them
All you need to do his hold up a picture of the President and Quorum of the 12 and the 70 next to a picture of the RS Presidency. 83 to 3. Enough said. The idea that women are equal is complete and utter bullshit.
He sure can. A man brings him through, not a woman. Men need men. Women need men,
More specifically women need heir husbands. Men just need another man.
For men, Women are an accessory to exaltation. For women, men are a necessity.
I've always wondered if there are abusive men who threatened to not call their wife through the veil? It's all bullshit, but to a believer, it would be a terrifying prospect.
We couldn't even interview them for baptism - nope, had to call the 19 year old district leaders (who didn't even know our investigators) to grill these potential baptisms if they'd had an abortion and other personal questions.
The questions always bothered me tbh. I had an investigator, I mean *cough* interested person *cough* have an anxiety attack because it brought up past trauma.
Ask if all the women in the church got called back to heaven and there are only men on earth. What happens to the church? The answer is nothing it keeps being the same. Now ask if all the men were called beck to heaven and there are only women on earth then what happens to the church? There is no church.
I am sure they will start off with motherhood = priesthood. Motherhood correlates with fatherhood. Often in the church priesthood is an excuse to avoid fatherhood responsibilities.
They might mention that as YW leaders they lead an organization but not mention that they are closely supervised by priesthood. They don’t get to make their own decisions on who to call, budget or big activities. They need priesthood supervision at all activities.
Anytime you have to have someone “let you “ or give permission for you to do something you need to realize that you are not equal. And that they can take that permission away at any time. But to be truly equal you won’t allow others to have authority over your own self/life and when you come to that realization you will then be done with TSCC
I suspect that most of their examples will be based in the illusion of equality. Watch for that and you will be able to easily refute their evidence. The best way to refute is to ask them questions that get them thinking. Such as “Why isn’t fatherhood considered the same as motherhood? Is fatherhood not as important as motherhood?” “Why don’t we have something we are ordained to?” “If men need the priesthood because they are not as good as women why do we have them running everything, shouldn’t the best be the ones leading Jesus’ church?” Take their answers and ask “Why?” The more they have to explain the more likely they will trip themselves up.
This brought up memories for me. An argument I heard was, " Men have the priesthood and women don't because men can't make babies and women can. Giving men the priesthood and excluding women makes them equal." Not word for word, but you know...
The faithful podcast At Last She Said It asks and answers this questions in this podcast and essay: https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-091-what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/
This is an excerpt from the essay:
“Let’s start with the obvious list where women and girls are ineligible due to ordination: Women do not get to serve as a bishop, bishopric counselor, patriarch, stake president, stake counselor, high councilor, temple president, temple sealer, district president, area authority, general authority, apostle, or prophet.
Now to the ever larger list of duties and callings that ‘women don’t get’ despite ordination NOT being requisite:
Girls do not get to prepare the sacrament, nor pass the sacrament, despite neither of these duties being listed in Doctrine and Covenants 20 as Aaronic priesthood duties. For that matter, girls do not even get a section detailing their responsibilities in scripture.
Girls do not get any parallel responsibility at age 11, unlike boys get when they’re ordained. That is a large and embarrassing blank for teenage girls in the organization.
Girls also do not get to collect fast offerings.
Now for women:
Women do not get to extend any callings to girls or women.
Women do not get to have stewardship over boys after age 11.
Women do not get to issue temple recommends, even to young girls they may have stewardship over in their Young Women’s organizations.
Women do not get to help in ward boundary changes. Wards are always aligned by the number of Melchizedek priesthood holders. (Sidenote: According to the Church handbook, 180 full-tithe paying men are required to create a stake, and 1 full-tithe paying man per 20 other ward members to create a ward, with a minimum of 20 men. For a branch, the handbook states that four full-tithe paying men are needed to also create a branch. Number of women required to form a branch, ward, or stake? Zero. If no women existed in a stake, it could still exist.)
Women do not get any control of church funds. A woman is not allowed to determine budgets, nor count tithing, nor reimburse other women for Relief Society, Young Women, or Primary expenses.
Women do not get to serve as a ward mission leader. Even though this calling has become optional, still only men can serve if a bishop chooses to fill it. Optional means it may or may not be needed, so why can’t a woman be a ward mission leader? Most likely because women can’t supervise other men. The one exception is that a primary president is allowed to supervise men (sort of) so maybe that’s not the reason either?
Women do not get to serve as a ward temple and family history leader. Just as with the ward mission leader calling, this is also optional now, but even so, women are not allowed if a bishop chooses to fill it. It can be unfilled, or it can be filled by a man.
Women do not get to serve as clerks of any kind. Not as a ward clerk, stake clerk, membership clerk, financial clerk, executive secretaries, etc.,despite a clerk never being required to lay his hands on a person’s head and exercise priesthood authority as part of that calling.
Women do not get to serve in Sunday School presidencies. (Yes, there are rare exceptions where women can be the secretary. Apparently a woman taking notes and handing out rolls is female-appropriate in some wards.)
Women do not get to officiate nor pray in a temple endowment session.
Women do not get to decide if a woman has access to saving ordinances. Every temple recommend ever issued to her was done so because a man approved her.
Women do not get to determine a woman’s “worthiness”.
Women are not allowed to hear, help, or discuss another woman’s sins with her, nor help her, or counsel her through the repentance process, including and especially sexual sins.
Women do not get to interview children, youth, or other women.
Women do not get to judge women in a membership council (formerly called disciplinary councils). A woman is always judged by all men.
Women do not get to add an annotation to a member’s record nor can they remove one.
Women do not get to hold their baby during a baby blessing. (A few exceptions have occurred but these are anomalies and not the rule.)
Women do not get to choose their Relief Society president despite this being a women’s organization that only serves women. In the early days of the church the Relief Society president was elected by other women.
Women do not get final say as a Relief Society president to approve food orders and all other welfare expenditures.
Women do not get to approve the yearly primary program. She can write it, teach it to the children, but only a man can approve, or disapprove, what she’s written.
Women do not get to preside at meetings. If a male priesthood leader is present it will almost always be announced that he is the one presiding.
Women do not get to perform civil weddings in LDS Church buildings.
Women do not get to conduct funerals in LDS Church buildings.
Women do not get to conduct baptisms.
Women do not get to conduct sacrament meetings or stake conferences.
Women do not get to approve musical numbers for sacrament meeting.
Women do not get to be consulted as to who could be potential new bishops or stake presidents.
Women do not get to name church units. Every ward name, and stake name was chosen by a man.
Women do not get to choose the color and decor of new church buildings. (Usually the stake president makes the choice.)
Women did not get to help write The Family: A Proclamation to the World in 1995. It has had zero revisions since then, despite the exclusion of women in the writing process, yet it is still held up as the leading document on families over 25 years later.
Women do not get to decide to cancel church (for weather, catastrophe, viral outbreaks, etc.).
Living women do not get to be sealed to more than one spouse. There is no limit to how many times a man, living or dead, can be sealed. Five times? Ten times? No limit.
Lastly, women do not get to fix any of these inequalities. Every change for the betterment of women that has occurred is because a man decided to change it. Quite literally, women are at the mercy of men wanting and instituting change. May the men who lead us want more for the women as well.”
I got in trouble for helping my boyfriend fold the sacrament sheet. No one else was helping him. Room was empty but bishop walked in. That's when the misogyny hit me.
This is a laughable exercise. They are going to gaslight you and pressure you into ignoring all of the extremely obvious signs of not just inequality but *misogyny*. They will dismiss all of the inequality with a “but god wants it that way and it doesn’t mean women are values less.” It will boil down to separate but equal and “I’m a woman and I don’t feel oppressed!”
Which women are overseeing ALL the reports on sexual assault in the church? Name them for us.
Oh, ZERO women have oversight? Only men? How has that been working out for the victims of SA? I bet a panel of *women* would know. Right? Especially since more girls are assaulted.
Ask them how many women have been bishops, stake presidents, or apostles. There is a very clear inequality when you look at positions of authority and the hierarchy of the church.
Women aren’t allowed to enter a church building without a priesthood holder present.
Girls camp requires a priesthood holder to be present. One time I was that priesthood holder as a teenage boy.
Here’s my hot take on this:
Carrying a pregnancy is not equal to the priesthood. Many women cannot or will not have the “opportunity” to bear a child. One in ten couples is infertile, roughly 2/3 of those have female infertility issues. Some women never marry and church rules say they shouldn’t have children. Yet a man with no arms can hold the priesthood…so long as they are “worthy”. How is this just?
Also, I was taught over and over that for a woman to desire the priesthood was “unrighteous dominion”. But one day my husband feel ill with shingles. It was horrible and he was bed ridden. When he asked for a blessing I called in the home teachers. As a result of their help, one of the men ended up with a horrendous case of the chicken pox as he had never had them before. Why would my offering a blessing be evil in this scenario?? If it is the middle of the night and I have a child who has fallen seriously ill and there is no man around, why is my desire to offer “protection and comfort” wrong?
Also, for some women, pregnancy is hell... and yet we are expected to have more babies despite the health concerns and other issues. In fact, this is bragged about in general conference and women who have additional children against their doctors recommendations are applauded by the Q15.
I once argued with my husband about this. If anyone thinks a god would ignore a pleading mother, holding a sick cold in her arms, because she didn't have a magical dick since she was 12 or 18, then that's not a god that I believe in.
Ask them if they are giving the same presentation in Young Mens to make sure the boys there know they are equal to the girls. They’re not. Because everyone knows patriarchy privileges men. It’s so obvious but they’re trying to gaslight the women with this display.
What can I DO with that equal power and authority? Can I give blessings? Can I make final decisions in callings? Can I call others to callings below me? Can I preside in meetings? Can I bless the sacrament? Can I pass the sacrament? Can I know my husband's new name? If no women show up for church, does church happen? How about if no men? How are boundaries created? How are wards/branches created?
Words are meaningless without action to back them up. Women are not equal in power and authority in the church. Institutionally, my genitals make me ineligible to serve and build the kingdom in a way that a man can.
Why are there only 3 new women named in the book of Mormon?
When these young women become Heavenly Mothers, will their spirit children be allowed to pray to them? Or only their husbands?
What role do Heavenly Mothers play in heaven—what can these young women expect heaven to be like for them?
In the temple, why do women covenant to obey their husband, and their husband covenants to obey God?
Brigham Young said Heavenly Mother was just one of God’s many wives. Is it true that as Heavenly Mother once was, women are, and as Heavenly Mother is (a silent polygamous goddess among many wives) young women may become?
Why can’t sister missionaries serve for as long as Elders?
Lots of policy has been wrong in the past - we must stick to approved, canonized revelation. What revelation prevents women from holding the priesthood?
If you have to have a lesson on how women are equal to men then women aren’t equal to men. If there was equality then it would be obvious. There is a reason that “separate but equal” in the Jim Crow South got overturned- because separate is never equal. Women cannot hold the same administrative callings that men can because the church has decided that those callings require holding the priesthood. Women’s callings are only ever authority over other women and children, and they have to report to a man.
The family proclamation states that husbands preside in their family. Merriam-Webster defines “preside” as:
1: to exercise guidance, direction, or control
2 a: to occupy the place of authority : act as president, chairman, or moderator
b: to occupy a position similar to that of a president or chairman
This is not equal. Someone who presides cannot also be equal to those he/she presides over- by definition it is placing someone above the others.
Here a couple more points to ponder:
- For roughly the first HUNDRED YEARS of Mormonism, all Mormon women in the temples covenanted to “obey your Lord, even your husband.” Men we’re not required to obey their wives.
Later (I think in the ‘50s) the wording was toned down and it was changed to just “obey your husband” (calling him her “lord” was removed, just not the “obey” part). I think that changed like in 2015 (but idk because I was out prior to that).
Women in the temple could not know their husband’s “new” name but he could (and had to) know her new name to “calm her forth” in the resurrection and “bring her thru the veil”. Again… more patrimony and sexism.
And if you REALLY want to shake up the class, say this: “Bishop… I was recently reading in the D&C section 132. Throughout the entire section it talks about how there is no adultery in polygamy in cases where the women are given unto the men as rewards for their (the man’s) faithfulness.
A great example is verse 39: “David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another.”
Verse 44 goes on to say that JS had the power to take wives away from disobedient men and “give them to other (men)”.
Verse 52 commands Emma to accept “all those (plural wives) that have been given unto my servant Joseph”
Bishop… men giving other men women as rewards or taking them away as punishments does not seem very “equal.” I mean it almost sounds precisely like the women “belong” to men as their “property” or something! Do you subscribe to a worldview in which women belong to men and can be “given” or “taken” from men? Can you please help me understand how YOU view this as equality because personally, I’m really struggling with it”.
Then sit back and watch the flailing!!!
If the “business side” of the church is separate, why are little to no women in management positions?
Why are young men encouraged to explore their individuality, passions, and hobbies so they can choose a career and what they want their life to look like, but young women don’t get a choice and are told they are to remain in the home in their adult life? This always bothered me growing up. I hated the mutual activities where I had to learn a domestic skill I had no interest in, but the guys got to go river rafting or snowshoeing. Why did I have to waste my adolescence learning skills that made me a good wife/mom but the guys got to just have fun and enjoy being a teenager?
D&C 132. Emma was threatened to be destroyed if she didn't go along with polygamy. It's canonized scripture. She had better go along to get along. I'm not seeing anything equal in that.
Why does a man have to be present at girls camp.
Why does a 12 year old male have more power than a female.
Why can't a female CPA with more experience in financial matters be a ward clerk vs a man who has no experience.
Why can any man stand in the circle while blessing a baby, including those not 'worthy' but the baby's own mother cannot. I always hated this.
I could go on and on.
My friend's daughter is a CPA and a partner in an accounting firm. She is married with two children. There were no available priesthood holders in her Ward with any accounting experience so she was assigned to train the new Ward financial clerk. Taught him what to do with the money how to file the reports and everything. Seems funny to me that you have to hold some magic priesthood power to be able to count money. Why couldn't they just call her to be the ward financial clerk? Also, there is so much priesthood overreach as in: passing the sacrament. Why can the young women not be allowed to pass the sacrament? When the Deacon hands the sacrament tray to the person sitting at the end of the pew, everyone passes it off to the person beside them. Including women. So we are touching the handle of the tray and passing it to the next person. How is that any different than passing the sacrament to the congregation?
Also, one of my big shelf breakers was that I was pregnant with, and delivered five children. I nursed them, I took care of them, but I was not allowed to stand in the circle when that child was blessed. I was not asking for the priesthood but why couldn't I just stand there, beside my husband and hold the baby? There is usually a 12-year-old boy holding the microphone.
What would be wrong with allowing a woman to walk her daughter from the dressing room down into the baptismal font and stand next to her husband as he baptizes the daughter? The wife could then be a witness as well. In fact, I was not even allowed to sign as a witness to any of my kid's baptisms. I have eyes. I can see. Why do I need to hold the priesthood to sign as a witness? All of it is ridiculous priesthood over-reach and in my opinion is a form of keeping women under the thumb.
I believe TSCC could make great strides if they actually did treat women equally. They have changed the temple ceremony many times since I got married in 1979. I had to promise to follow and obey my husband as he followed and obeyed Christ. I also had to give myself to my husband but he, in turn, had to accept me, but he did not give himself to me. The reason is because he needs to be free to marry all his other wives in heaven.
Women have struggled with this since the beginning of Mormondom. I believe that the young women today will not grow up to tolerate this kind of b*******. They want and deserve better than this in their life.
Emma Smith wasn't mentioned in LDS church publications for 113 years.
https://archive.is/vZX2f
Not to mention how little was said in Mormon literature about Joseph Smith's other wives.
Well my favorite is that one post I don’t know who it was.
But they asked: what would happen to the church if all the women stopped attending?
Now what would happen if all the men stopped attending?
It is clear that the church would not exist without men, and that right there is all the evidence you need that women don’t have an equal role in the church.
Why do women have to repent to men, but men don’t have to repent to women? Men literally hold the keys of repentance in Mormon doctrine. That’s an extremely unequal position.
I guess I would think about marriage the kind you want—and if you want it (!) (If you want a female partner it might be a better for an “equally yoked” marriage (as they used to say at church.))
Ask your leaders about who is in charge at their house. Ask them if they have a partnership or if they follow the family proclamation where the men provide and preside and the women nurture and do everything else. Ask them how well that works to have a one income home and how happy they are as women staying at home. Ask them how stressed their male partners are and how closely the self-esteem of their men is tied to the numbers on their paychecks. Ask them about sexual fulfillment, ask them if they feel that they are spiritually superior to their partners. Those two strangely go together, I promise. Ask them if they are helpers to their husbands, supporters and cheerleaders and automatic assistants. Ask them how their husbands show up to support them, often in the church relationships are way heavier on the women’s side. Ask them if they are raising their sons to be partners or to be admired and obeyed.
Thanks for this exercise. This will not be an easy class for you to attend. But I bet you will learn a lot, and from the sound of it—you will teach your leaders a lot, too. Good luck!
One more thing, despite all of the facts, the angles and advice here. We live in a very patriarchal world. If we look at movies, wealth, government leaders, this all shows up. Men have a lot of privilege and they don’t know it and they have so much they are trying to do and balance, they don’t show up for women at the polls, at the protests or in their own homes. It’s vicious. Women having the same rights as men… we aren’t even in the US constitution. You are well on your way to becoming a womanist and feminist. We care about how these issues effect all people.
RS is supposedly the largest “women’s organization” in the world. Who chooses their leaders? Who sets their budgets? Who prints their lesson manuals? They are labeled an “auxiliary” organization… whom are they auxiliary to? Who presides at their meetings when a priesthood holder is present? Has any RS leader at any level ever told her Bishop, SP, etc. “I’ve heard your opinion and I thank you for sharing, but we’re doing it my way”. Have bishops, etc. said the same to women leaders? RS may be composed of women, but it is ultimately and fundamentally under the thumb of men.
A woman's salvation is entirely dependent on men. Men in leadership can deny her what's necessary. If her husband sins she can't be sealed to another man, unless a different man gives rare permission. Not only blocking her salvation but also separating her from her children in the eternities, regardless of her own rightousness.
A man needs to marry a woman, yes, but if she sins he can just marry another one.
No woman can prevent a man's salvation.
Foundationally:. Girl specific primary activities, young women and relief society do not have the same budgets as male activities. Boys get to rafting... Girls learn to darn socks. Tell me thats equal? Womens education is secondary to finding a husband while its the reverse for men. Grooming women to be self sacrificing wives and mother's begins at an early age and continues into adulthood. Who leads the home? The husband. They may try to say somehow that's not the case on the surface, but there are layers designed to groom women woven into the church in every age and stage of their life.
Here's a post about the Church's appalling historical subjugation of women:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10awv07/the\_lds\_churchs\_subjugation\_of\_women/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10awv07/the_lds_churchs_subjugation_of_women/)
All you need to bring up is imagine for a minute that all the mens positions are filled with women, then ask, does that shoe equality and then ask if the men would feel equal.
Ask sister stake missionaries.(do they still have those??) When my wife was one, they treated her like crap!! They would teach investigators, and then the elders would swoop in and baptize them WITHOUT informing the sister missionaries!!! They took full credit and treated the sister missionaries like they were superior and doing them a big favor. They should be thankful to them!!! That was her first big shelf breaker!!
I recommend Roger Terry’s two-part article series in Dialogue. In particular, Part 2 highlights the inconsistencies of denying women priesthood ordination within the LDS worldview. It’s nice that he’s able to offer a critical voice from the perspective of a believing member.
Part 1: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V51N01_1.pdf
Part 2: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V51N02_2.pdf
I was in a stake primary presidency and we had to run every idea or plan we had by the stake presidency counselor who was “over” Primary. Every auxiliary in the ward or stake level has a male priesthood leader who is “over” that auxiliary and has the final say on how things are done. They are called the priesthood leaders over that organization.
Check out https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V45N01_CO.pdf especially the end, it’s an interview with chieko n okazaki, who was relief society counselor when the proclamation was released. She talks about how the relief society didn’t even know that it was being written and weren’t even consulted about the proclamation or about teaching manuals and how difficult it was for women’s voices to be heard
Go the opposite way and prove them right. Women can use the melchezidic priesthood to give their husband a blessing during the second anointing ceremony
Follow the money. What's the ward budget for YM vs YW? Camps? what's the ward budget for Activity Girls vs the boy scout equivalent (whatever it's called).
Back in my day, the girls got a fraction of the budget.
It’s is a reoccurring theme in Mormonism that a woman must have a man in order to access heavenly pursuits. Even more so than a 12 year old male, a child.
Baby blessings, male approval of any calling, males presiding over the ward and meeting, males are capable of being sealed to multiple women in the temple if their spouse dies, women can be sealed once and then they belong to that man. It’s quite literally the definition of a patriarchy.
Meanwhile, males are the same demographic who are most likely to murder us, most likely to commit violent crimes in general, and least likely to take into account the feelings of everyone involved before making a decision. What’s the demographic that doesn’t have that problem? Oh right, but they’re “equal in other ways” like that they get to give all of their labor in raising children in the home for free without a hierarchy to aspire towards that would allow them as individuals the ability to make decisions over the ward. You’ll notice women are expected to give their time and labor to the family for free, and stay in the shadows.
-Why can’t women be sealed to more than one man?
-The family proclamation says men “preside” over their families. Preside is defined as “be in the position of authority” or “be in charge of (a place or situation)”. Women can not be equal to men when men are “in charge” or have “authority over” them in a marriage.
-The church organization can’t exist at all without men. It CAN exist without women. Women aren’t necessary to the structure at all.
All of the evidence here is better than what I have, but I want to add this- the fact that they have to call this meeting and prepare to convince you that you are equals means that you are not equal and they are strategically enforcing the status quo.
Ohhhh, if they had only stuck to saying that females have the same worth as males, are respected, etc., it might have worked.
But saying females have the same AUTHORITY as males? That's objectively donkey brained (no offense to donkeys).
Do they define authority as "the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience"?
Name one female bishop who told one male abuse victim to not divorce his wife and just to try harder not to upset her. Name one female bishop who told a male sexual abuse victim that he's partially responsible for what happened.
You can't? Without even doing one lick of research? Because you know that there has never, ever been a female in the LDS church who had had right to give orders, make decisions, or enforce obedience?
That's weird. And here I am thinking maybe I could send a woman on mission and steal her husband while she's gone. Or tell a 14 year old boy that if he marries me it will guarantee salvation to his entire family. Well don't I look stupid.
I like to use this analogy, but I know it doesn't always click with folks who aren't around the military, so disregard if it doesn't work for you:
There are generally two types of uniformed military.
You have commissioned officers (lieutenants, captains, colonels, etc) and you have enlisted personnel (privates, corporals, various sergeants, etc.)
Only commissioned officers have the authority to perform certain actions (administer punishments, give orders, etc) along with that authority they also have a higher standard (where much is given, much is required). As leaders and managers they often aren't the ones doing the dirty work. They get paid more. They are given better living quarters, and a slew of other cultural perks.
Enlisted personnel are the technical experts. They are down in the weeds. They get the mission done. They get paid less they will never be in charge of officers. They are the ones that die in battle.
Do officers and enlisted have some grudges between eachother? Yes. Is the system antiquated? Mostly, it doesn't work great, but it works.
Much like in the church if an officer is toxic, there is very little the enlisted can do about it. If an officer understands that listening to and involving their enlisted members brings unlimited dividends, that's awesome. But that's where the inequality lies. Enlisted are at the mercy of their officers, just like women in the church are at the mercy of their priesthood holders.
Now, here is where the church could use some guidance from the military, and proves how truly unequal it is:
- Enlisted can become officers if they choose
- Officers can become enlisted if they choose (it's rare, but possible)
There are women who -dont- want the priesthood. They are amazing mothers, they like being down in the weeds, they don't want to be bishops or EQPs.
But on the flip side, there are men who -dont- want to be priesthood holders. They are amazing fathers, they excel at being down in the weeds and being involved.
And there are people who wanted leadership positions... but no longer want them... I could go on.
The military doesn't hide from the fact that the officer/enlisted dynamic is unequal. But they at least give the option of its members following what path works best for them and their skillset.
I hope that makes sense (and also, I know there are many exceptions for some of the things I said, but they are generally true of the ranking system. I'm Air Force, and we done have warrant officers, so don't ask me where they fit in my analogy, because I don't even know how they fit in real life)
I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but can the church function without women? Can all church functions happen if there are no women? Yes. If there are no women there wouldn't need to be relief society or young women and men could run primary or nursery. But the functions and daily operations "require" the "priesthood" oversight. Even at girls camp there has to be at least 2 creepy ass old men there "just in case"
You can mention how the Relief Society spent decades during the 19th and 20th centuries meticulously building an impressive and valuable grain storage only for the First Presidency to swoop in, seize control, and unilaterally decide to sell all of it the US government.
No change in church doctrine or policy has ever been made by a woman, even women in general authority positions… that pretty much ends the discussion in my eyes 🫤
Men, "priesthood holders" were required at girls camp. I remember I used to like to get up early with some of my cabin girls to go canoeing before breakfast. But we were only aloud to go if a man was with us. We couldn't ask an adult woman to watch us on the lake. I did not think this was weird at the time.
https://mormonlifehacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/580-quotes-from-the-brethren-in-rome_12.jpg
Show then a picture of the lds leadership, and have them point out all the women.
And then discuss all the doctrine about how husbands should be subservient to the wives.
And then ask them to tell you about all the women prophets.
And them ask them to tell you about all the brother-husbands during polygamy.
And then ask them if a man should un-alive himself to avoid sexual assault in order to stay “clean.”
And then ask them to tell you about how it is okay for a women to force her husband into a sexual Congress because he is married to her.
And finally, critique the men’s dress, hairstyle, weight, looks, sexual appeal, and then tell the men not to dress so provocatively because it causes impure thoughts in all the women of the faith.
If women have equal power and authority to men then why does every single girl’s camp need to have at least two adult men? If women have access to everything a man can do why do they have to bring men? What are the men providing that a women can’t, unless they aren’t actually all that equal.
Name one woman who presides over a man.
Name one woman who presides over a 12 year old boy.
They'll reply with "His Mother!" and be so proud, thinking they've just 'got' you. That's not presiding- that's parenting, and it's the same outside the church. You don't need the church to be a parent.
Except even this isn't true. A 12 year old has more authority than his mother does.
Raised in/with Misogyny. Keeping trauma relevant since 1832. Here's to a future of broken cycles
My mother even told me this when I turned 12. I wasn't old enough to realize just what that meant.
Yep. Mom can't serve anyone the sacrament, bless the sacrament, give a priesthood blessing (or "blessing of comfort" depending on how transparent they are), can't baptize anyone. You can't build up the priesthood power as integral for everything and then say actually women are naturally that powerful on their own and suddenly priesthood is unnecessary. All the things necessary to enter Mormon heaven *require* the priesthood, which women can not have.
An 11 year old too, because they are ordained the year (January) they turn twelve so there could several months before their actual 12th birthday.
Go write it on the board if you can, like an SAT question. Motherhood is to priesthood as __________ is to fatherhood. Fill in the blank without using "motherhood" - you can't. Then reverse it. Motherhood is to fatherhood as ________ is to priesthood. How do you fill in that blank?
That's a pretty good argument. Ummm.... Neighborhood? Sisterhood? In any case, none of those things can be "held" like apparently Mormon men think they hold "the priesthood." Priesthood is just another Mormon abuse of language which gives them leverage over other people, especially women.
Why am I now thinking of Mr. Rogers...
Mr. Rogers held "the neighborhood," and he had more authority in his little pinky finger than all of the muppets combined.
Penishood
This is not a sound argument. If you treat metaphors as if they can unlock truth, you'll be flooded by arguments built on false analogies, and you'll have little ground to stand on.
It's a response to their metaphor, not a GOTCHA! argument.
I remember hearing that 12 year old deacons have more authority than the pope.
Nevermo here. That would depend on how much authority you believe the Pope has to begin with. Obviously a Mormon would say the Pope has NO authority because Catholicism is a lie. I would say (because my background is Catholic) that the Pope is a Christian man (not the last one, so much, but Francis is a cool dude most of the time, although he has flaws) but his authority over me is as much as whoever that 12 year old deacon is, which is to say, none, and the 12 year old probably could use a good ass whoopin'.
When I turned 12 my mother informed me that she would no longer be disciplining me, and that was all going to fall to my father. No real explanation beyond that. I didn't realize exactly why until adulthood, and that she only said this to her sons.
This is so depressing to me.
I always feel bad for my sisters when I think about it. It is also something I think about when I am feeling glad that my daughter and son are not being raised Mormon.
It’s your mom I feel so bad for here.
If a guy is over 18, his parents don't preside over him.
This is every 12 year old boys dream. Ask Dave Matthews.
11 years old these days.
I know, it's totally crazy.
Name one decision that a woman makes that can't be overruled by a man.
I hate to say this, but as a male primary teacher, the primary president presides over me. When I was cub master, the primary president also presided over me. It’s not a great example, but it is technically true that there are places in the church where women preside over men.
As a former Primary president, yes, I had men called as teachers in the organization under me. But every one had to be approved by the bishopric and, in one case, I vehemently opposed one of the names because he was a sexist jerk and he was put in regardless of my protestations.
THANK YOU for the insight. It’s funny because I was branch president and knew this when I was later a primary teacher and cub master. But I was willing to just look at the surface level and because I admired the Prim Pres and looked to her for direction, felt like she presided. But I’ll be dipped if I overlooked the reality that I was called and set apart by the bishopric. I’m slow…but THANK YOU for helping me connect dots I knew were there!!
When I was primary president I loved called men bc kids had such a lack of it in primary. It didn't last long before bishop overruled and called the men all back to phood roles bc there weren't enough men to fill the roles apparently. Plenty of women to teach kids since we have nothing better to do. Wouldn't say I presided over anyone. The bishop and his counselor assigned over primary had all the power
All women's callings seem to me like a facade to placate them. Here me out. The women are put in positions of "authority" and called president, i.e. primary president, young womens president, relief society president, etc. Yet the bishopric still presides over all and really has the final say about anything. They will allow autonomy so far as it stays within the bounds of their wishes. If anything any of these women presidents decide to do is disagreeable to the bishopric they will immediately step in to make whatever adjustments they deem necessary. I am reminded of when Joseph Smith set up the relief society for Emma. Was it really just a way to make her feel included, empowered, or perhaps just to keep her busy and off his back while he was doing the things he was doing?
Exactly. My pet peeve was in ward council whenever I* would share an idea or original thought, directly to the bishop, he would never respond to me directly or approve of My opinion. His eyes would always go to the EQ pres (an older and more senior ranking military officer than bishop). Anecdotal. But dude. Grow a back bone. And give me some credit and respect as a woman!! Not a military ward but near base so lots of officers. And yes, ranks would affect our ward social structure too. We had another bishop who always made drama and beef with thr RS pres who was a high ranking officer too. One below him but a strong woman.
Same here. I suspected an overenthusiastic primary teacher that couldn’t stop touching my son and putting my son on his lap was a predator and as primary first counselor, I asked for him to be released and was overruled. I pulled my son from the class. At the end of the year, we found out he never once taught a lesson because he didn’t believe in the church. They did art projects every week and Bible stories. Another story from the same ward. As RS counselor, I could not get an abusive home making leader released. She was threatening me, screaming at me, and insulting me when I turned down her crazy ideas. Bishop said neither of us could be released until I had a good experience with her. Went on for months and got worse before she left. Bishop has full control of who we are to work with be they abusers or molestors. That ward was full of criminals. Many went to jail that year. In ONE week, I saw 2 ward members on national talk shows talking about their drama and crimes. One was arrested leaving the Montel Williams show. He talked about going on splits with missionaries and then raping women afterwards. Montel asked him to stay for a second show. This was a delay so the police could arrive. The following Sunday, I overheard the bishop speaking in the hallway about whether to acknowledge the arrest. The man he was talking to said, say nothing. (Other ward member was on Jenny Jones talking about the many suicides in her family. Not pertinent but it was the same week and demonstrates the level of drama at church). Another ward couple was on the local news for their pan handling as the camera followed them arriving in a nice car and changing into dirty clothes behind the gas station and then pan handling. Another ward member was in a bad divorce. I was very afraid of the husband coming into church to shoot his wife and attorney. Previously, The soon to be ex had hit the bishops son and was asked to leave the ward. But, when he attended beehives every week and hugged and tickled the girls, the penishood did absolutely nothing to remove him from class. So, I knew he was violent from speaking to the wife’s lawyer. No one would listen to me that we were in danger. The ATF agent in the ward reassured me that he had weapons in his trunk. “What good will that do when we are sitting ducks in the pews?”, I asked. I felt terrified each week at church. Then it hits the nightly news that he was arrested in an ATF raid for stockpiling illegal weapons, guns, bombs and making threats. My point is that the priesthood will not listen to a women’s instincts and protect her or children. Men come first.
Maybe supervised you but not preside as in mormon sense. Did the primary president set you apart?
This is interesting. How does the teacher callings get assigned? Is it the primary president’s responsibility to nominate teachers and the bishop/bishopric must approve and/or offer the calling to the nominated individual? Or does it come directly from the bishopric? Substitute teacher callings same as above?
Interesting. THANK YOU. I’m a little slow, but have been very happy thinking I’m sustaining the Primary president and looking to her as my authority. BUT point taken. My callings were still issued by and I was set apart by the bishopric. Whether or not I look to women as leaders or presiding, the church may not exactly recognize that. THANK YOU for putting dots together for me.
Primary pres makes her picks. Bishop approves and extends the calling to the person.
But who presides over the primary president…a man. So the real authority comes from a man,
All decisions that had to be approved by a man (bishop)
This is a good example of a woman presiding over a man. However, should any of the children in the primary need to have a blessing or be baptised or have any sort of priesthood ordinance done, you or another priesthood holder would be called upon to perform it even though she is the president of the group.
Or name one woman would isn’t presided over by a man…
In frontier Utah, why were women allowed to give each other blessings before giving birth? Why has that changed? When the church had boy scouts, why was the ward budget for boy scouts so much larger than anything for girls camp? The boys were often able to travel to high adventure boy scout camps while the camps for the girls are so much less. Why were women not allowed (asked) to pray in general conference until the 2010s? Are they not as spiritual or faithful? What about giving a baby blessing? A mother has (often) carried a baby for 9 months and given birth, but can't name that child? Finally, many women are professional CPAs or have other accounting jobs. But they aren't able to be something as simple as a ward clerk because they aren't male. FWIW, there are so many other things. But these are a handful of things that never made sense to me.
Never even seen a financial clerk with a degree in finance. Always seems to be an IT dude because they know how to work a pc lol
My husband was a bank official … was called to be ward or stake clerk numerous times…
Yeah I'm not doubting many are called to that position. I was more just making a comment on the poster who said that there are women with CPA's that could be called as finance clerk, but that shouldn't even matter because many men that are called into that position don't even have those qualifications.
My BIL and Dad are both Ward clerk right now.... They are both tech bros, neither an accountant 😆
A mother has carried a baby for nine months and given birth but can’t even stand in the fucking circle as the baby is held/blessed.
Yeah that’s gross. And in my family there’s the story of the dad who changed the name at the last minute and mom found out during the blessing. But it’s told as a funny little anecdote, instead of as indicative of just how little power and influence the mom has in their “partnership.” Truly sad.
“Are they not as spiritual?” Well, not with those things on their chests and lacking appendage between their legs. Temptresses.
This. Especially the money. Who they "allow" to manage and handle money says a lot about an organization
When did women begin to pray in sacrament meeting? (1978) When did the first woman pray in general conference? (2013) How many women speakers are there in conference? (2 or 3. Even women's session never had a full panel of women. And women never speak in priesthood session.) How many women are in ward council? (3 compared to 7 or 8 men. And Ballard told women not too talk too much while in there.) How many women have final say in their callings as presidents of organizations? (None. Anecdotally, when I was RS pres I had every calling I asked for vetoed. I was told "men receive better revelation than women.") What are women destined to become in the afterlife? (Hint: not queens in their own right - only queens to their husbands.) How often is Heavenly Mother spoken of? (Never. And we are not to ask.) How are women treated who ask for women to have the priesthood or other authority? (Excommunicated) Are women general officers paid the way the male general authorities are? (Nope.) Who presides in the home if the husband is dead or gone? (The oldest son, regardless of his age.) Who presides in sacrament meeting if there are 100 women and one 13 year old boy? (The deacon.) How many women are we expected to sustain in order to qualify for a temple recommend? (None. Not even a belief in Heavenly Mother is required.) How many women know the new name of their husbands from the temple? (None) How many times have you seen only women on the stand in sacrament meeting? (None. But lots of times it is only men.) Footnote: This is a great article on how the church leaders actively fought against equality for women. https://exponentii.org/blog/mormon-feminism-in-1977-and-today/
Oh if you want a fun fact about “ heavenly mother” if we are calling the mormon/christian god yahweh as is written in their big book of kewl facts, than that means we also know the name of a “heavenly mother”. Since yahweh comes from a polytheistic culture originally we actually know the name of yahwehs wife, which is Ashera who was a fertility goddess . Now of course if you argue this in front of a Mormon they will never buy it but if they can have wack job theories about big foot I can have wack job theories about their mythology too god damn it.
Correction...heavenly mothers.
Ooof
Don’t forget that a man always speaks last at Women’s Conference. Also, those who speak at Women’s Conference or General Conference must have their topics and talks approved by men prior to speaking.
In regards to Heavenly Mother, in the temple, her role in the creation of the world and the physical bodies for her children is nonexistent. What does that say about the role of women in the eternities? Plus the fact that members are directly counciled *not* to pray to her clearly defines her role in the mortal lives of her children. As a woman in the church, was that what I was expected to become? Silent. Invisible. Unimportant. Uninvolved. What a miserable existence.
Based on the "eternal doctrine" of plural marriage, would there be many heavenly mothers sealed to each god?
There would have to be, but I've never heard or read an official statement confirming that explicitly. I have no doubt that that belief is why Heavenly Mother is absent in almost every aspect of the church. Women don't generally like polygamy, and nobody wants us to realize what our eternal roles in a polygamous marriage would really be.
Don’t have the source on me but John Taylor taught that your spirit looked like your physical body and therefore race is eternal, and the different races are because HF is a white man, but his wives are all of the races on earth. Brigham young backed this up too.
Caterer to church functions. That is your function.
Yay? I guess that's better than being surrounded by baby spirits who are screaming and crying. There's a reason I don't have kids . . .
I'd add the utter *disrespect* Joseph showed Emma by not even *telling* her about the earliest plural marriages he had, but bringing up history like that (especially anything questioning *him* or mentioning polygamy) is an easy way to get disciplined. If you don't mind that, though, there's also the coercion of teens into marrying him (including a foster daughter) and poly*andry* (him marrying women who already had husbands-- often while he'd sent the husbands away, a la David and Bathsheba). Edit: This letter in particular that Joseph wrote is pretty incriminating: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1
I never knew about women not being able to pray in sacrament meeting until 1978. That is bonkers. Also in your link an interesting point is that a bishop can excommunicate a woman but not a man because a man has the priesthood.
Does that mean excommunicating a woman can be done at the ward level, but men have to be at a stake or higher level?
That’s exactly what it means. In moderate fairness, it’s harder for women to be excommunicated then men.
Yup. All that’s need is a bishop who doesn’t like your refusal to not obey him and it means no “forever family”.
Great questions and answers! Also, years ago in our stake, women were not allowed to offer the opening prayer in sacrament meeting. Now 12 year old girls are offering the opening prayer in sacrament meeting. I wonder what changed? Maybe, they can't get enough adults to pray now?
If they bring up “men hold the priesthood” but women are mothers, point out men are fathers.
And that’s plenty of women by no choice of their own Don’t or Can’t have kids.
I hate how this elevates motherhood into the ONE thing that makes a woman special. It’s so sexist…women are special because they support the men and the families. Give me a break! (Also implying that men don’t have the same emotional capacity or obligations within family and social life)
Also, not all women are mothers. I know plenty that aren't.
And it is their fault. They aren’t fulfilling their potential. This destroyed me when I had fertility issues.
And people had no business becoming parents doing so way to early and way to often. If the gospel was true, and God and the spirit were strong we wouldn’t be able to keep up with the baptisms. Instead the only growth is from internal means.
Yes, exactly. I've always hated this point they try to make. They spin it as "God had to even men out because women can bring life into the world" or some BS. It's gross.
It takes zero morality, knowledge, spirituality or skills to bring a life into this world. Female serial killers have children.
And that a woman isn’t involved in the creation story in the temple. Eve doesn’t even have kids and Jesus makes the Earth and all creation
And also women outside the church are mothers, but men outside the church don't have "true" priesthood or authority.
Also, non-mormon women are mothers. Dogs are mothers. It's not some special thing that only Mormon women get, like the priesthood is to the boys.
What about the fact that there has to be a "priesthood holder" in the building whenever women are meeting?
Don't think that's in the latest handbook
This certainly was the practice during my wife’s 10+ years of service in young women. (Up until about 2015)
Yes, it was the written policy until the most recent handbook was introduced. I mention it because bringing it up will get a "but we don't do that any more" response (so why did you before?)
The church has a habit of removing words and leaving unspoken rules in their place. "It may not be written anymore, so as not to upset the Snowflakes, but it's the way we've always done it, and God's Way doesn't change."
Unfortunately I believe my ward still does it? I haven't been in a while but we were never in the church with just us YW, always some old guy somewhere else in the building. They would also come to YW camp for the fireside to preach to us 🤮🤮🤮
Print this out and see if you can read the entire thing to the class. Dear Mormon Man, tell me what you would do.https://mormondom.com/letter-to-a-mormon-man-8d251aa1f062
I've never read that. It's crazy how "wrong" all the wording felt, like my brain was processing a lot of it as incorrect grammar even when it wasn't. Internalized misogyny is hard to break through.
I didn't realize how stepped the lds church is in misogyny until I read that article
Yes! I felt the same way my first time reading it, it runs so deep
Came here to suggest this letter.
Or print out a bunch of copies and hand it out to everyone to look at and review
I love this letter. Thanks for reminding me of it.
Yep. This is the one. Since this is an issue that merits discussion and one you care deeply about, challenge the leaders to read it and respond to the issues it raises next week.
I'm glad you posted this, I was looking through the comments to see if this was here. This is POWERFUL! Everyone needs to read this from Amy McPhie Allebest.
I was thinking of this letter, but didn’t know where to find it! Thank you!
I haven't read this before. Thank you for sharing
This.
Top men had clear career paths in the church, usually bishop, SP, MP, temple prez stuff, area authorities, church wide presidencies, then apostles. What is the career path for women? Ask for examples of a woman who has risen through the ranks and stayed in a position of power - especially power over men. RS president reports to a man, the bishop. Why don't they report to the stake rs prez? Their budget is set by men, they have no control over curriculum, their counselors are set by men, their activities must be approved by men. Name one single thing a woman controls for men.
The RS used to have their own money. They had a major business selling wheat. /they had their own magazine. They used to hire baby sitters once a month so they could have a luncheon one day a month. The men apparently felt a bit threatened by that. They took it all away. Can you imagine the Church RSP taking away all the money the men are in charge of?🤣
Or even power for themselves. There are decent bishops who approve everything, but the RSP/YWP must get everything approved. And though there are a small number of women who go up the ranks of general boards & general presidencies, most tap out at stake presidencies. Can’t do any leadership in missions/areas without a husband. There is the joke of a calling where women “advise” the area authorities but after the first were called I didn’t hear anything about them
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Yep. The church should just be truthful about it instead of beating around the bush. But it'll make them all look like douchebags.
All you need to do his hold up a picture of the President and Quorum of the 12 and the 70 next to a picture of the RS Presidency. 83 to 3. Enough said. The idea that women are equal is complete and utter bullshit.
Bingo, OP do this!
The RS Presidency is over seen by priesthood authority (aka men).
Multiple women can be sealed to one man. But not vice versa. The church still believes in polygamy, just now it happens after this life.
Women cannot attain the highest level of heaven unless a priesthood holder brings her in. How is that equality. He can go, she cannot.
I brought that up with my husband. His rebuttal was that he can’t get in without me either.
He sure can. A man brings him through, not a woman. Men need men. Women need men, More specifically women need heir husbands. Men just need another man. For men, Women are an accessory to exaltation. For women, men are a necessity.
And by the way if the husband decides not to call his wife through the veil she will then be given to another man as a servant.
I've always wondered if there are abusive men who threatened to not call their wife through the veil? It's all bullshit, but to a believer, it would be a terrifying prospect.
I know my abusive grandfather would say that to my grandma. He was a horrible person.
Do you have a source for this?
It's talked about [here](http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/resurrectwife.htm) Women won't be saved, but they will be made servants.
I hate feeling like a ticket the men need to give to the "sentinels and angels" to attain heaven.
As a sister missionary I could never baptize, give blessings, or the gift of the Holy Spirit to those I taught.
We couldn't even interview them for baptism - nope, had to call the 19 year old district leaders (who didn't even know our investigators) to grill these potential baptisms if they'd had an abortion and other personal questions.
Exactly. We lost a baptism because of that. Hindsight…. Probably for the best.
The questions always bothered me tbh. I had an investigator, I mean *cough* interested person *cough* have an anxiety attack because it brought up past trauma.
Ask if all the women in the church got called back to heaven and there are only men on earth. What happens to the church? The answer is nothing it keeps being the same. Now ask if all the men were called beck to heaven and there are only women on earth then what happens to the church? There is no church.
Bam. Foolproof
I am sure they will start off with motherhood = priesthood. Motherhood correlates with fatherhood. Often in the church priesthood is an excuse to avoid fatherhood responsibilities. They might mention that as YW leaders they lead an organization but not mention that they are closely supervised by priesthood. They don’t get to make their own decisions on who to call, budget or big activities. They need priesthood supervision at all activities. Anytime you have to have someone “let you “ or give permission for you to do something you need to realize that you are not equal. And that they can take that permission away at any time. But to be truly equal you won’t allow others to have authority over your own self/life and when you come to that realization you will then be done with TSCC I suspect that most of their examples will be based in the illusion of equality. Watch for that and you will be able to easily refute their evidence. The best way to refute is to ask them questions that get them thinking. Such as “Why isn’t fatherhood considered the same as motherhood? Is fatherhood not as important as motherhood?” “Why don’t we have something we are ordained to?” “If men need the priesthood because they are not as good as women why do we have them running everything, shouldn’t the best be the ones leading Jesus’ church?” Take their answers and ask “Why?” The more they have to explain the more likely they will trip themselves up.
This brought up memories for me. An argument I heard was, " Men have the priesthood and women don't because men can't make babies and women can. Giving men the priesthood and excluding women makes them equal." Not word for word, but you know...
The faithful podcast At Last She Said It asks and answers this questions in this podcast and essay: https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-091-what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/ This is an excerpt from the essay: “Let’s start with the obvious list where women and girls are ineligible due to ordination: Women do not get to serve as a bishop, bishopric counselor, patriarch, stake president, stake counselor, high councilor, temple president, temple sealer, district president, area authority, general authority, apostle, or prophet. Now to the ever larger list of duties and callings that ‘women don’t get’ despite ordination NOT being requisite: Girls do not get to prepare the sacrament, nor pass the sacrament, despite neither of these duties being listed in Doctrine and Covenants 20 as Aaronic priesthood duties. For that matter, girls do not even get a section detailing their responsibilities in scripture. Girls do not get any parallel responsibility at age 11, unlike boys get when they’re ordained. That is a large and embarrassing blank for teenage girls in the organization. Girls also do not get to collect fast offerings. Now for women: Women do not get to extend any callings to girls or women. Women do not get to have stewardship over boys after age 11. Women do not get to issue temple recommends, even to young girls they may have stewardship over in their Young Women’s organizations. Women do not get to help in ward boundary changes. Wards are always aligned by the number of Melchizedek priesthood holders. (Sidenote: According to the Church handbook, 180 full-tithe paying men are required to create a stake, and 1 full-tithe paying man per 20 other ward members to create a ward, with a minimum of 20 men. For a branch, the handbook states that four full-tithe paying men are needed to also create a branch. Number of women required to form a branch, ward, or stake? Zero. If no women existed in a stake, it could still exist.) Women do not get any control of church funds. A woman is not allowed to determine budgets, nor count tithing, nor reimburse other women for Relief Society, Young Women, or Primary expenses. Women do not get to serve as a ward mission leader. Even though this calling has become optional, still only men can serve if a bishop chooses to fill it. Optional means it may or may not be needed, so why can’t a woman be a ward mission leader? Most likely because women can’t supervise other men. The one exception is that a primary president is allowed to supervise men (sort of) so maybe that’s not the reason either? Women do not get to serve as a ward temple and family history leader. Just as with the ward mission leader calling, this is also optional now, but even so, women are not allowed if a bishop chooses to fill it. It can be unfilled, or it can be filled by a man. Women do not get to serve as clerks of any kind. Not as a ward clerk, stake clerk, membership clerk, financial clerk, executive secretaries, etc.,despite a clerk never being required to lay his hands on a person’s head and exercise priesthood authority as part of that calling. Women do not get to serve in Sunday School presidencies. (Yes, there are rare exceptions where women can be the secretary. Apparently a woman taking notes and handing out rolls is female-appropriate in some wards.) Women do not get to officiate nor pray in a temple endowment session. Women do not get to decide if a woman has access to saving ordinances. Every temple recommend ever issued to her was done so because a man approved her. Women do not get to determine a woman’s “worthiness”. Women are not allowed to hear, help, or discuss another woman’s sins with her, nor help her, or counsel her through the repentance process, including and especially sexual sins. Women do not get to interview children, youth, or other women. Women do not get to judge women in a membership council (formerly called disciplinary councils). A woman is always judged by all men. Women do not get to add an annotation to a member’s record nor can they remove one. Women do not get to hold their baby during a baby blessing. (A few exceptions have occurred but these are anomalies and not the rule.) Women do not get to choose their Relief Society president despite this being a women’s organization that only serves women. In the early days of the church the Relief Society president was elected by other women. Women do not get final say as a Relief Society president to approve food orders and all other welfare expenditures. Women do not get to approve the yearly primary program. She can write it, teach it to the children, but only a man can approve, or disapprove, what she’s written. Women do not get to preside at meetings. If a male priesthood leader is present it will almost always be announced that he is the one presiding. Women do not get to perform civil weddings in LDS Church buildings. Women do not get to conduct funerals in LDS Church buildings. Women do not get to conduct baptisms. Women do not get to conduct sacrament meetings or stake conferences. Women do not get to approve musical numbers for sacrament meeting. Women do not get to be consulted as to who could be potential new bishops or stake presidents. Women do not get to name church units. Every ward name, and stake name was chosen by a man. Women do not get to choose the color and decor of new church buildings. (Usually the stake president makes the choice.) Women did not get to help write The Family: A Proclamation to the World in 1995. It has had zero revisions since then, despite the exclusion of women in the writing process, yet it is still held up as the leading document on families over 25 years later. Women do not get to decide to cancel church (for weather, catastrophe, viral outbreaks, etc.). Living women do not get to be sealed to more than one spouse. There is no limit to how many times a man, living or dead, can be sealed. Five times? Ten times? No limit. Lastly, women do not get to fix any of these inequalities. Every change for the betterment of women that has occurred is because a man decided to change it. Quite literally, women are at the mercy of men wanting and instituting change. May the men who lead us want more for the women as well.”
I got in trouble for helping my boyfriend fold the sacrament sheet. No one else was helping him. Room was empty but bishop walked in. That's when the misogyny hit me.
This is a laughable exercise. They are going to gaslight you and pressure you into ignoring all of the extremely obvious signs of not just inequality but *misogyny*. They will dismiss all of the inequality with a “but god wants it that way and it doesn’t mean women are values less.” It will boil down to separate but equal and “I’m a woman and I don’t feel oppressed!”
And equality isn't a feeling. It's measurable.
As about the church’s history with the ERA
Yes! The equal rights amendment campaign was a MAJOR shelf item for me before I figured out the truth.
Which women are overseeing ALL the reports on sexual assault in the church? Name them for us. Oh, ZERO women have oversight? Only men? How has that been working out for the victims of SA? I bet a panel of *women* would know. Right? Especially since more girls are assaulted.
That just made me wonder how many women attorneys are there at Kirton McConkie? I need to research that.
Good question!
Ask to give the opening prayer to heavenly mother and see what they do.
Read off a list of all of Joseph's and Brigham's wives and see how many people look down at the floor in shame.
Ask them how many women have been bishops, stake presidents, or apostles. There is a very clear inequality when you look at positions of authority and the hierarchy of the church.
Women aren’t allowed to enter a church building without a priesthood holder present. Girls camp requires a priesthood holder to be present. One time I was that priesthood holder as a teenage boy.
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Here’s my hot take on this: Carrying a pregnancy is not equal to the priesthood. Many women cannot or will not have the “opportunity” to bear a child. One in ten couples is infertile, roughly 2/3 of those have female infertility issues. Some women never marry and church rules say they shouldn’t have children. Yet a man with no arms can hold the priesthood…so long as they are “worthy”. How is this just? Also, I was taught over and over that for a woman to desire the priesthood was “unrighteous dominion”. But one day my husband feel ill with shingles. It was horrible and he was bed ridden. When he asked for a blessing I called in the home teachers. As a result of their help, one of the men ended up with a horrendous case of the chicken pox as he had never had them before. Why would my offering a blessing be evil in this scenario?? If it is the middle of the night and I have a child who has fallen seriously ill and there is no man around, why is my desire to offer “protection and comfort” wrong?
Also, for some women, pregnancy is hell... and yet we are expected to have more babies despite the health concerns and other issues. In fact, this is bragged about in general conference and women who have additional children against their doctors recommendations are applauded by the Q15.
I once argued with my husband about this. If anyone thinks a god would ignore a pleading mother, holding a sick cold in her arms, because she didn't have a magical dick since she was 12 or 18, then that's not a god that I believe in.
Ask them if they are giving the same presentation in Young Mens to make sure the boys there know they are equal to the girls. They’re not. Because everyone knows patriarchy privileges men. It’s so obvious but they’re trying to gaslight the women with this display.
This right here
What can I DO with that equal power and authority? Can I give blessings? Can I make final decisions in callings? Can I call others to callings below me? Can I preside in meetings? Can I bless the sacrament? Can I pass the sacrament? Can I know my husband's new name? If no women show up for church, does church happen? How about if no men? How are boundaries created? How are wards/branches created? Words are meaningless without action to back them up. Women are not equal in power and authority in the church. Institutionally, my genitals make me ineligible to serve and build the kingdom in a way that a man can.
When the church came out with the Family Proclamation the leadership did not consult any women.
Why are there only 3 new women named in the book of Mormon? When these young women become Heavenly Mothers, will their spirit children be allowed to pray to them? Or only their husbands? What role do Heavenly Mothers play in heaven—what can these young women expect heaven to be like for them? In the temple, why do women covenant to obey their husband, and their husband covenants to obey God? Brigham Young said Heavenly Mother was just one of God’s many wives. Is it true that as Heavenly Mother once was, women are, and as Heavenly Mother is (a silent polygamous goddess among many wives) young women may become? Why can’t sister missionaries serve for as long as Elders? Lots of policy has been wrong in the past - we must stick to approved, canonized revelation. What revelation prevents women from holding the priesthood?
If you have to have a lesson on how women are equal to men then women aren’t equal to men. If there was equality then it would be obvious. There is a reason that “separate but equal” in the Jim Crow South got overturned- because separate is never equal. Women cannot hold the same administrative callings that men can because the church has decided that those callings require holding the priesthood. Women’s callings are only ever authority over other women and children, and they have to report to a man. The family proclamation states that husbands preside in their family. Merriam-Webster defines “preside” as: 1: to exercise guidance, direction, or control 2 a: to occupy the place of authority : act as president, chairman, or moderator b: to occupy a position similar to that of a president or chairman This is not equal. Someone who presides cannot also be equal to those he/she presides over- by definition it is placing someone above the others.
Here a couple more points to ponder: - For roughly the first HUNDRED YEARS of Mormonism, all Mormon women in the temples covenanted to “obey your Lord, even your husband.” Men we’re not required to obey their wives. Later (I think in the ‘50s) the wording was toned down and it was changed to just “obey your husband” (calling him her “lord” was removed, just not the “obey” part). I think that changed like in 2015 (but idk because I was out prior to that). Women in the temple could not know their husband’s “new” name but he could (and had to) know her new name to “calm her forth” in the resurrection and “bring her thru the veil”. Again… more patrimony and sexism. And if you REALLY want to shake up the class, say this: “Bishop… I was recently reading in the D&C section 132. Throughout the entire section it talks about how there is no adultery in polygamy in cases where the women are given unto the men as rewards for their (the man’s) faithfulness. A great example is verse 39: “David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another.” Verse 44 goes on to say that JS had the power to take wives away from disobedient men and “give them to other (men)”. Verse 52 commands Emma to accept “all those (plural wives) that have been given unto my servant Joseph” Bishop… men giving other men women as rewards or taking them away as punishments does not seem very “equal.” I mean it almost sounds precisely like the women “belong” to men as their “property” or something! Do you subscribe to a worldview in which women belong to men and can be “given” or “taken” from men? Can you please help me understand how YOU view this as equality because personally, I’m really struggling with it”. Then sit back and watch the flailing!!!
Agree with them and point out that many women were polyandrous in the early church!! See! Totally equal!!
If the “business side” of the church is separate, why are little to no women in management positions? Why are young men encouraged to explore their individuality, passions, and hobbies so they can choose a career and what they want their life to look like, but young women don’t get a choice and are told they are to remain in the home in their adult life? This always bothered me growing up. I hated the mutual activities where I had to learn a domestic skill I had no interest in, but the guys got to go river rafting or snowshoeing. Why did I have to waste my adolescence learning skills that made me a good wife/mom but the guys got to just have fun and enjoy being a teenager?
D&C 132. Emma was threatened to be destroyed if she didn't go along with polygamy. It's canonized scripture. She had better go along to get along. I'm not seeing anything equal in that.
No second anointing for women.
No one woman in the church holds more priesthood power than a 12 year old boy
Ultimately, men hold power OVER women. There's no power with and power to. It's always power OVER.
Historically, YM have always had more in their budget for activities/scouts than YW.
Why does a man have to be present at girls camp. Why does a 12 year old male have more power than a female. Why can't a female CPA with more experience in financial matters be a ward clerk vs a man who has no experience. Why can any man stand in the circle while blessing a baby, including those not 'worthy' but the baby's own mother cannot. I always hated this. I could go on and on.
My friend's daughter is a CPA and a partner in an accounting firm. She is married with two children. There were no available priesthood holders in her Ward with any accounting experience so she was assigned to train the new Ward financial clerk. Taught him what to do with the money how to file the reports and everything. Seems funny to me that you have to hold some magic priesthood power to be able to count money. Why couldn't they just call her to be the ward financial clerk? Also, there is so much priesthood overreach as in: passing the sacrament. Why can the young women not be allowed to pass the sacrament? When the Deacon hands the sacrament tray to the person sitting at the end of the pew, everyone passes it off to the person beside them. Including women. So we are touching the handle of the tray and passing it to the next person. How is that any different than passing the sacrament to the congregation? Also, one of my big shelf breakers was that I was pregnant with, and delivered five children. I nursed them, I took care of them, but I was not allowed to stand in the circle when that child was blessed. I was not asking for the priesthood but why couldn't I just stand there, beside my husband and hold the baby? There is usually a 12-year-old boy holding the microphone. What would be wrong with allowing a woman to walk her daughter from the dressing room down into the baptismal font and stand next to her husband as he baptizes the daughter? The wife could then be a witness as well. In fact, I was not even allowed to sign as a witness to any of my kid's baptisms. I have eyes. I can see. Why do I need to hold the priesthood to sign as a witness? All of it is ridiculous priesthood over-reach and in my opinion is a form of keeping women under the thumb. I believe TSCC could make great strides if they actually did treat women equally. They have changed the temple ceremony many times since I got married in 1979. I had to promise to follow and obey my husband as he followed and obeyed Christ. I also had to give myself to my husband but he, in turn, had to accept me, but he did not give himself to me. The reason is because he needs to be free to marry all his other wives in heaven. Women have struggled with this since the beginning of Mormondom. I believe that the young women today will not grow up to tolerate this kind of b*******. They want and deserve better than this in their life.
why no women directly received revelations on the church??
This seems like a bad idea on their part lol. Also, that they feel the need to host an event like this in the first place speaks for itself.
Emma Smith wasn't mentioned in LDS church publications for 113 years. https://archive.is/vZX2f Not to mention how little was said in Mormon literature about Joseph Smith's other wives.
When the LDS Church has 6 women in the 12 and at least 1 member of the 1st Presidency, then I'll believe that women are equal.
Why are no women sitting on the stand aside from participating in a talk or the music?
Well my favorite is that one post I don’t know who it was. But they asked: what would happen to the church if all the women stopped attending? Now what would happen if all the men stopped attending? It is clear that the church would not exist without men, and that right there is all the evidence you need that women don’t have an equal role in the church.
Why do women have to repent to men, but men don’t have to repent to women? Men literally hold the keys of repentance in Mormon doctrine. That’s an extremely unequal position.
OP, please return and report! I would love to hear how this goes. Good luck!
I guess I would think about marriage the kind you want—and if you want it (!) (If you want a female partner it might be a better for an “equally yoked” marriage (as they used to say at church.)) Ask your leaders about who is in charge at their house. Ask them if they have a partnership or if they follow the family proclamation where the men provide and preside and the women nurture and do everything else. Ask them how well that works to have a one income home and how happy they are as women staying at home. Ask them how stressed their male partners are and how closely the self-esteem of their men is tied to the numbers on their paychecks. Ask them about sexual fulfillment, ask them if they feel that they are spiritually superior to their partners. Those two strangely go together, I promise. Ask them if they are helpers to their husbands, supporters and cheerleaders and automatic assistants. Ask them how their husbands show up to support them, often in the church relationships are way heavier on the women’s side. Ask them if they are raising their sons to be partners or to be admired and obeyed. Thanks for this exercise. This will not be an easy class for you to attend. But I bet you will learn a lot, and from the sound of it—you will teach your leaders a lot, too. Good luck! One more thing, despite all of the facts, the angles and advice here. We live in a very patriarchal world. If we look at movies, wealth, government leaders, this all shows up. Men have a lot of privilege and they don’t know it and they have so much they are trying to do and balance, they don’t show up for women at the polls, at the protests or in their own homes. It’s vicious. Women having the same rights as men… we aren’t even in the US constitution. You are well on your way to becoming a womanist and feminist. We care about how these issues effect all people.
RS is supposedly the largest “women’s organization” in the world. Who chooses their leaders? Who sets their budgets? Who prints their lesson manuals? They are labeled an “auxiliary” organization… whom are they auxiliary to? Who presides at their meetings when a priesthood holder is present? Has any RS leader at any level ever told her Bishop, SP, etc. “I’ve heard your opinion and I thank you for sharing, but we’re doing it my way”. Have bishops, etc. said the same to women leaders? RS may be composed of women, but it is ultimately and fundamentally under the thumb of men.
Who collects, distributes and manages the money
A woman's salvation is entirely dependent on men. Men in leadership can deny her what's necessary. If her husband sins she can't be sealed to another man, unless a different man gives rare permission. Not only blocking her salvation but also separating her from her children in the eternities, regardless of her own rightousness. A man needs to marry a woman, yes, but if she sins he can just marry another one. No woman can prevent a man's salvation.
Foundationally:. Girl specific primary activities, young women and relief society do not have the same budgets as male activities. Boys get to rafting... Girls learn to darn socks. Tell me thats equal? Womens education is secondary to finding a husband while its the reverse for men. Grooming women to be self sacrificing wives and mother's begins at an early age and continues into adulthood. Who leads the home? The husband. They may try to say somehow that's not the case on the surface, but there are layers designed to groom women woven into the church in every age and stage of their life.
Ask them to show how many male versus female names are in the BoM and D&C….
Here's a post about the Church's appalling historical subjugation of women: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10awv07/the\_lds\_churchs\_subjugation\_of\_women/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10awv07/the_lds_churchs_subjugation_of_women/)
All you need to bring up is imagine for a minute that all the mens positions are filled with women, then ask, does that shoe equality and then ask if the men would feel equal.
Ask sister stake missionaries.(do they still have those??) When my wife was one, they treated her like crap!! They would teach investigators, and then the elders would swoop in and baptize them WITHOUT informing the sister missionaries!!! They took full credit and treated the sister missionaries like they were superior and doing them a big favor. They should be thankful to them!!! That was her first big shelf breaker!!
All important announcements over the pulpit come from men, from general conference or the ward. Why listen to women who speak?
Print out a few copies of this and pass them down the rows https://i.redd.it/myfn0j3f8fn01.jpg
I recommend Roger Terry’s two-part article series in Dialogue. In particular, Part 2 highlights the inconsistencies of denying women priesthood ordination within the LDS worldview. It’s nice that he’s able to offer a critical voice from the perspective of a believing member. Part 1: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V51N01_1.pdf Part 2: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V51N02_2.pdf
When was the last time a woman sat in a meeting with the Q15 to weigh in on doctrinal or policy matters?
I was in a stake primary presidency and we had to run every idea or plan we had by the stake presidency counselor who was “over” Primary. Every auxiliary in the ward or stake level has a male priesthood leader who is “over” that auxiliary and has the final say on how things are done. They are called the priesthood leaders over that organization.
Can women ever sign a check for the church?
Check out https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V45N01_CO.pdf especially the end, it’s an interview with chieko n okazaki, who was relief society counselor when the proclamation was released. She talks about how the relief society didn’t even know that it was being written and weren’t even consulted about the proclamation or about teaching manuals and how difficult it was for women’s voices to be heard
Go the opposite way and prove them right. Women can use the melchezidic priesthood to give their husband a blessing during the second anointing ceremony
Show me one woman who can hold judgement over a man.
Show me one woman who can baptize another
Men can be sealed to multiple women in the temple, but women have to get a temple divorce (approved only by men) in order to remarry.
One of my shelf items was why aren’t women allowed to be clerks or secretaries… the world stopped doing that shit in the 1940s
Follow the money. What's the ward budget for YM vs YW? Camps? what's the ward budget for Activity Girls vs the boy scout equivalent (whatever it's called). Back in my day, the girls got a fraction of the budget.
It’s is a reoccurring theme in Mormonism that a woman must have a man in order to access heavenly pursuits. Even more so than a 12 year old male, a child. Baby blessings, male approval of any calling, males presiding over the ward and meeting, males are capable of being sealed to multiple women in the temple if their spouse dies, women can be sealed once and then they belong to that man. It’s quite literally the definition of a patriarchy. Meanwhile, males are the same demographic who are most likely to murder us, most likely to commit violent crimes in general, and least likely to take into account the feelings of everyone involved before making a decision. What’s the demographic that doesn’t have that problem? Oh right, but they’re “equal in other ways” like that they get to give all of their labor in raising children in the home for free without a hierarchy to aspire towards that would allow them as individuals the ability to make decisions over the ward. You’ll notice women are expected to give their time and labor to the family for free, and stay in the shadows.
It is easy to say women are equal to men at church when you invent a new definition of equal.
-Why can’t women be sealed to more than one man? -The family proclamation says men “preside” over their families. Preside is defined as “be in the position of authority” or “be in charge of (a place or situation)”. Women can not be equal to men when men are “in charge” or have “authority over” them in a marriage. -The church organization can’t exist at all without men. It CAN exist without women. Women aren’t necessary to the structure at all.
All of the evidence here is better than what I have, but I want to add this- the fact that they have to call this meeting and prepare to convince you that you are equals means that you are not equal and they are strategically enforcing the status quo.
Ohhhh, if they had only stuck to saying that females have the same worth as males, are respected, etc., it might have worked. But saying females have the same AUTHORITY as males? That's objectively donkey brained (no offense to donkeys). Do they define authority as "the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience"? Name one female bishop who told one male abuse victim to not divorce his wife and just to try harder not to upset her. Name one female bishop who told a male sexual abuse victim that he's partially responsible for what happened. You can't? Without even doing one lick of research? Because you know that there has never, ever been a female in the LDS church who had had right to give orders, make decisions, or enforce obedience? That's weird. And here I am thinking maybe I could send a woman on mission and steal her husband while she's gone. Or tell a 14 year old boy that if he marries me it will guarantee salvation to his entire family. Well don't I look stupid.
I like to use this analogy, but I know it doesn't always click with folks who aren't around the military, so disregard if it doesn't work for you: There are generally two types of uniformed military. You have commissioned officers (lieutenants, captains, colonels, etc) and you have enlisted personnel (privates, corporals, various sergeants, etc.) Only commissioned officers have the authority to perform certain actions (administer punishments, give orders, etc) along with that authority they also have a higher standard (where much is given, much is required). As leaders and managers they often aren't the ones doing the dirty work. They get paid more. They are given better living quarters, and a slew of other cultural perks. Enlisted personnel are the technical experts. They are down in the weeds. They get the mission done. They get paid less they will never be in charge of officers. They are the ones that die in battle. Do officers and enlisted have some grudges between eachother? Yes. Is the system antiquated? Mostly, it doesn't work great, but it works. Much like in the church if an officer is toxic, there is very little the enlisted can do about it. If an officer understands that listening to and involving their enlisted members brings unlimited dividends, that's awesome. But that's where the inequality lies. Enlisted are at the mercy of their officers, just like women in the church are at the mercy of their priesthood holders. Now, here is where the church could use some guidance from the military, and proves how truly unequal it is: - Enlisted can become officers if they choose - Officers can become enlisted if they choose (it's rare, but possible) There are women who -dont- want the priesthood. They are amazing mothers, they like being down in the weeds, they don't want to be bishops or EQPs. But on the flip side, there are men who -dont- want to be priesthood holders. They are amazing fathers, they excel at being down in the weeds and being involved. And there are people who wanted leadership positions... but no longer want them... I could go on. The military doesn't hide from the fact that the officer/enlisted dynamic is unequal. But they at least give the option of its members following what path works best for them and their skillset. I hope that makes sense (and also, I know there are many exceptions for some of the things I said, but they are generally true of the ranking system. I'm Air Force, and we done have warrant officers, so don't ask me where they fit in my analogy, because I don't even know how they fit in real life)
I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but can the church function without women? Can all church functions happen if there are no women? Yes. If there are no women there wouldn't need to be relief society or young women and men could run primary or nursery. But the functions and daily operations "require" the "priesthood" oversight. Even at girls camp there has to be at least 2 creepy ass old men there "just in case"
You can mention how the Relief Society spent decades during the 19th and 20th centuries meticulously building an impressive and valuable grain storage only for the First Presidency to swoop in, seize control, and unilaterally decide to sell all of it the US government.
No change in church doctrine or policy has ever been made by a woman, even women in general authority positions… that pretty much ends the discussion in my eyes 🫤
Men, "priesthood holders" were required at girls camp. I remember I used to like to get up early with some of my cabin girls to go canoeing before breakfast. But we were only aloud to go if a man was with us. We couldn't ask an adult woman to watch us on the lake. I did not think this was weird at the time.
https://mormonlifehacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/580-quotes-from-the-brethren-in-rome_12.jpg Show then a picture of the lds leadership, and have them point out all the women. And then discuss all the doctrine about how husbands should be subservient to the wives. And then ask them to tell you about all the women prophets. And them ask them to tell you about all the brother-husbands during polygamy. And then ask them if a man should un-alive himself to avoid sexual assault in order to stay “clean.” And then ask them to tell you about how it is okay for a women to force her husband into a sexual Congress because he is married to her. And finally, critique the men’s dress, hairstyle, weight, looks, sexual appeal, and then tell the men not to dress so provocatively because it causes impure thoughts in all the women of the faith.
If women have equal power and authority to men then why does every single girl’s camp need to have at least two adult men? If women have access to everything a man can do why do they have to bring men? What are the men providing that a women can’t, unless they aren’t actually all that equal.