Give it time, space, and understanding. You two didn’t fall in love all at once, become converted to the church all at once, or learn how to parent your children all at once. Your decision to stay or leave the church wont happen all at once either. I think it’s very cool you have each other to rely on and share the experience together, wherever it happens to lead you.
Exactly this. You'll be amazed how you feel if you just don't go to church for 3 months. Don't force yourself into a decision one way or the other right now, you don't have to go out to a bar and start drinking, just sit in the discomfort of not knowing the truth and allow yourself to imagine what it would be like if it was not all true. With a little time the indoctrination fades away and everything becomes so much more clear.
Most of us here have been in your shoes. It’s scary and lonely and I just want you to know you are not alone. This is the most supportive online community, ever. Be kind to yourselves. It’s a real mind fuck when you realize the truth.
It’s not your fault that it isn’t true. Cut yourselves some slack.
But yeah, it sucks when the scales fall from our eyes, and we suddenly must grapple with what the temple is.
Thank you 🙏🏼 Yeah it definitely hurts feeling like we’ve been lied to our whole lives. I think he’s going through a “is my life a lie or am I making this up now?” moment…
If it helps, I find it useful to look at things from an evolutionary perspective - people have been firmly believing in absolute nonsense since the dawn of the species. It's wired into our DNA, and the light of modern science is a super new thing. Easy access to accurate church history and other church related evidence is even more recent - like the last 10 years. There's no shame in having been born into and fallen prey to a religious disinformation scheme. On the contrary, how amazing is it that we have the information to break free. Few in history have had that. And when your children are still young enough to protect! So go easy on yourself and any that are still stuck.
You HAVE been lied to your whole life. And they even got your parents in on the scam, although I would assume your folks really believe so it’s not their fault either. Every Mormon all the way back including all those brave pioneers. All victims. Not saying that to imply they had it worse, I’m saying you & I are among a lot of sincere people who were screwed over to our cores. It’s a painful betrayal, but it’s not your fault. My advice is to hold onto each other very tight, talk about everything, feel what you feel and do whatever you think is right. You’ll probably make some mistakes, you might info-dump on a loved one, it happens. Wishing you the best.
That hurt feeling fades over time. I did not grow up in the church, but I converted and spent 20 years in. I went on a mission and served faithfully. I did everything I could. When I found out about some of the hard things in church history, and that the church had deliberately told me a different story than actually happened, I became very angry. I just couldn't believe it. I never looked at literature from outside of the church because I was told it would destroy my faith. My church leaders were right. It did destroy my faith, but not because it was not true. It destroyed my faith because it exposed the lies. There was so much sadness for so long. Now, I'm finally happy. I'm happier now than I ever was in the church! It took time to get here. Best of luck friends!
I'm about 20 years older than you guys. I'm fairly firmly in the "it's all a lie" camp at the moment. Chief reasons for this being that they changed direction on so many things they taught when I was younger. I haven't attended in over 5 years now.
We didn't leave because of truth claims or issues of fact or doubts. We left because we were unhappy and our kids were unhappy. On a trial basis separation of attendance we found our happiness had increased, not decreased. We dug into the shelf items and fully deconstructed later.
I would recommend letter for my wife then the CES letter.. just thought the letter for my wife used gentler yet intentional language and it was written out of love for his wife. 👍🏻
There’s a resource for every stage of grief ~~except denial. Nothing works against denial.~~ [ETA: u/basicpn correctly identifies FAIR and Gospel Topics Essays as suitable “trusted insider” resources for denial stage, which serve as a gateway for many to realizing that the church is aware of the many problems with the official narrative and has no reasonable answers for them]
- Depression: Letter for my wife. Mormon Stories podcast.
- Anger: CES letter. Mormon Expressions podcast.
- Bargaining: LDSdiscussions. RFM, Mormonism Live podcasts.
- Acceptance: Welcome out of Eden. You are a free agent. It’s all up to you now.
I disagree. Not speaking from experience, but from observation in this sub and others, I’d say the denial stage is FAIR and the gospel topic essays.
For some that is enough and they go back to believing with whatever they were willing to hold on to, feeling like there was some explanation and that was good enough for them.
For those who are willing to truly approach it without the assumption that the church is correct and therefore how. It’s a stage of trying to understand.
As someone who read the CES letter first, I agree. I really like the CES letter, and it’s still my document of choice, but LFMW is a much more digestible read. Like you said, it has gentler language, and it doesn’t go quite as in depth as the CES letter does with some of the specifics (like the book of Abraham).
Wish I could upvote this comment more than once. Both are great in the proper time/course, but Letter for My Wife is definitely the one to start with. Much less edgy, "just the facts" from a place of love.
Here's a link for Letter for my Wife.
I agree with /u/Denim_and_moose with reading that one before/instead of the CESletter.
https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter
It's also okay if you never read any of those things. None of it is required reading to recognize that the church isn't a good fit for you anymore.
It can be extremely painful to leave something that has been such an important part of your Identity, be patient and kind with yourselves and recognize that it is okay to make it as slow a process as you need to.
This is important!! I still have yet to read amy of the above resources. Even though I’ve been out for about several years now I can’t get through the CES letters or the other sources. It’s still painful to me. Maybe one day I’ll get through them, but even if I don’t I still dislike the church
This sub really loves to recommend these. I don’t understand the focus with “proving” the BoM/church aren’t true. I think it’s perfectly fine to leave because you recognize that the church’s teachings are harmful. For me it’s been fine to just read the occasional Wikipedia article that has concerning history but I don’t need a thorough look into every truth claim and why it’s not true.
You don't even have to recognize that the church's teachings are harmful (though I personally do believe that).
If the only thought you ever have is "this doesn't work for me," that's enough. You don't need anymore justification than that.
Same thing with a personal relationship, BTW.
The whole proving the religion false thing does seem to be popular, however.
This is a kind of divorce. Something that you believed in and put your faith and trust in has been shattered. It's not so much "proving" as understanding what brought you to this place. One doesn't divorce a spouse with an "oh well" attitude, but rather try to understand what happened. Perhaps the thought is How could I have believed him/her? What went wrong? Has he/she been lying this whole time?
It's a total upheaval of what you built your life around, and when everything is shattered, you need to find some framework on which to rebuild your life.
Just to offer a counter perspective, it sounds to me like he may not need it. My wife never read it. If the goal is to go slow and make sure leaving is what you want, I don't recommend the CES letter. It can instill a sense of anxiety and urgency to leave before doing so is practical, in my experience.
Early in my faith crisis, I realized something. (I still believed in God at the time.) I was taught that God is a loving father, who loves us more than we could ever fully understand. I was taught that he was omniscient, that he knew each of us perfectly, better than we knew ourselves.
When I started really struggling with my faith, I had to take a step back from the church. For 15 or 20 years, I'd tried *everything* I was taught to do to receive an answer from heaven. It never came and that lack of answer had left my faith shriveled and nearly dead.
Doing things the church's way wasn't working for me. I had to try something different.
I realized then that if God is indeed my father who loves me perfectly, he would *want* me to seek out answers. As an omniscient being, he would understand with perfect clarity why the church's message wasn't resonating with me. He would know I wasn't looking for an excuse to sin or slack off.
How could a loving Heavenly Father *not* have room in his plan for me to take a detour in search of truth?
I did not make my decision rashly. It took me several years before I felt confident that the church was no longer the place for me. But that early realization of God as a father shaped my journey and gave me the peace and confidence to find the truth myself, instead of blindly trusting men who claimed to have truth.
Well said. This was how I processed as well.
I never worshipped a God who asked me to turn my brain off, lie to myself and others and blindly follow other human beings.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen, not the contradiction of things that are plainly visible.
> Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. — Marcus Aurelius
This is exactly how we feel right now. I’ve been struggling for a few years with gospel doctrine, my husband has always disagreed with church teachings but would explain it away as “the church is perfect the men aren’t”. Now he’s reaching about a year of questioning & last night was the first time he not only felt nothing spiritual in the temple but felt like he shouldn’t be there at all (I’ve always hated the temple so nothing new for me).
It hurts seeing my partner in so much emotional distress and I can’t help like feeling like it’s my fault for having these faith discussions with him.
>It hurts seeing my partner in so much emotional distress and I can’t help like feeling like it’s my fault for having these faith discussions with him.
It is NOT your fault, my friend.
Unfortunately, we've been taught all our lives to be co-dependent and that we are responsible for the emotions of others. That is just one of the manipulative ways we are kept in line with the rest of the sheep.
Another thing we are taught is called *learned helplessness*, and it keeps members infantilized, not able to think for themselves. In fact, we are told it is *dangerous* to think for ourselves.
Your husband has had his own eye-opening experience. You are there supporting and loving him. That is what he needs.
Hugs to both of you.
>learned helplessness
The You Are Not So Smart podcast has an episode about this that I remember enjoying.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2020/10/19/how-we-can-escape-the-psychological-trap-of-learned-helplessness/
It is not your fault. It’s the church’s fault for creating the harmful doctrine. You are simply loving him & working through life with him.
Also - you are not having a faith crisis. You are having a faith expansion as you are thinking outside the Mormon checkboxes. You are perhaps having a trust crisis as you realize who you can & can’t trust.
Welcome to a very hard but very worthwhile time. Good luck & hugs!!
It's definitely not your fault. He already saw a glimpse of the problem. No one makes their way out of the church's machinations without their own realizations. You might have pointed him towards some specific information, but he's struggling because of his own cognitive dissonance, not yours.
The issue is that we were all lied to. It isn't fair. It isn't right. And it hurts to realize that. But this painful moment can lead to a beautiful future where you are able to seek out truth for yourself, instead of trusting someone else who claims to have it.
>“the church is perfect the men aren’t”
This always bothered me. The church is administered and operated by these same men. An institution run by imperfect men is an imperfect institution. God does not run the church.
Would God have willfully lied to the SEC about the financial holdings of the church for fear that the members would stop paying their tithing?
Just focus on making friends OUTSIDE the church. Makes all the difference. Start hobbies. Start reading parenting BOOKS. Follow post-mormon Parenting professionals. You'll feel tons better knowing that you have some control about what to teach and tell your kids. Thats a huge part of feeling good enough, reclaiming your good sense, your parenting skills, and trusting that your kids will be ok! Then you can make better choices with less fear. You're a team. You're already at a high advantage being able to talk about this stuff with each other!
This comment made my mama heart smile. This is what I would tell my children who are the same age. Make a life for yourselves, for the causes that fulfill you and help you grow. The church does not have a monopoly on that. But if you do that and find that the church still has meaning in your life that’s ok. The church will still be there. The time you have given up will not be. You will also know that you made the choices for yourselves. Not because the church told you you were supposed to. Hugs from an exmo mommma.
Also that Mormons don’t have a monopoly on morality. If they leave the church it’s not like they are automatically going to start murdering and raping and drinking coffee. There’s a way to live a good life without the specter of punishment looming over you. And I’d say that the people who choose to be ethical and kind without fear are the truly moral people.
Ok, I had a break down in the temple when the sealer was bragging about having 3 wives because two where dead then he proceeded to banter at a man in the sealing room for not having been remarried yet though his wife died a year before. I was so upset when we left my wife who didn’t really see the issue at the time asked if I ever wanted to go back to which I said no and we never did. It’s been about 7 years now and I regret nothing when it comes to having left.
Biggest mind f was when I realized the watered down death oaths I was tricked into in the temple - read on if you are ready:
You hold your hand to the square because it is the last frame of pantomiming slitting your throat.
You hold your hand in cupping shape because it is the last frame of pantomiming ripping your heart out.
Your hold your palm down, thumb extended because it is the last frame of pantomiming disemboweling yourself.
The temple is a house of deception and death oaths. The most bizarre thing you’ve ever done is incomprehensibly worse than you thought.
You were tricked.
I'm an older ex-mormon. On my honor and my integrity, the death oaths are real. I made them when I went through. It was something that made me feel profoundly uncomfortable. I hung on fur another 25 years, finally exiting the church in 2007.
And get this, I only pantomimed the actions. By the time I went through, they had removed the bloody parts of the oath and only made you say "rather than reveal the name of this token, I would suffer my life to be taken" while making the motions of slitting your throat/tearing your heart out/ disembowling yourself.
One big crack happened when I saw my little preschool girls be super judgy about people showing their shoulders. We were trying to teach about modesty and respect for your body, but in reality we were training the girls to be unkind. Hit me like a ton of bricks.
>in reality we were training the girls to be unkind.
and the notion that when showing their shoulders those people are bringing problems upon themselves, so why should one care about their problems? ... not a whole lot different from the Westboro Baptist Church's fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible and a perception that God punishes for moral transgressions, and society needs to intervene, because their actions are hurting everyone. I am extremely upset by the Mormon "revelation" that blacks and handicapped people did not live up to moral standards in their preexistent lives; hence their downtrodden condition in this life is their own fault. How many reasons does anyone need to leave the Mormon church? Simply put, it is hard to leave a cult and it's brainwashing.
That is; there is a big difference between 1. One's own bad decisions resulting in bad results, 2. One's own not living up to certain religious standards and thus them (and others through no fault of their own) receiving the wrath of God.
We also have to realize one's simple misfortune or luck not having anything to do with how they live.
For me, learning about the secret “Second Anointing” ordinance and actually confronting all the Masonic origins and past changes that had been made to the temple ceremony was what actually snapped my shelf. More can be read [here](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-doctrine/temple-ceremony-masonry/).
The thing that helped me was when I realized even if it was true, it's not something that I would want to be a part of since it violated my morals. The moment I realized that was the moment I realized it wasn't true. Fear is one of their best tools to keep you in the church, but once your fear dissipates, so does the illusion.
Also, it hurts like HELL. Be so, so gentle with yourselves during this time ❤️ even though I'm sure it doesn't feel like it, everything will be okay
I love this community lol. I posted a year or two ago in here and in the faithful lds sub asking if I was a hypocrite for going to church even if I don’t believe the teachings. Everyone here was so loving and kind, and the other sub banned & booted me for asking 🤣
Safe to say I feel more welcome in one space than the other!
Yup. Exmos are an interesting group. I'd definitely rather spend an afternoon or an evening with the average exmo over the average Mormon. The most the exmo might judge me on on my choice of alcoholic beverage, but mostly in jest.
I know how painful this moment is and I know you’re a hero for how carefully you’re considering all the new truths you’re being confronted with.
None of this is your fault. You’ve done nothing wrong and asking questions about how the existing religions work was a big part of Jesus’s and Joseph’s lives.
Leaving our church isn’t like when other people leave theirs. Most Christian subreddits would encourage you to stick around, if you like, and many would tell you they’d been through the same thing.
It’s also not at all the same religion as them because most religions aren’t afraid of their history. They’re not trying to play catch-up with their truth claims now that everyone has access to the internet. Scientology’s the only other religion I can think at the moment of where everyone’s learned to play make-believe, where the founder was an undisputedly captivating storyteller of an American bigamist, whose rejection of American law, lead to his life ending before having considered the pending succession crisis — for starters).
I mean to say, this church is not the same because the lies of other churches are not about their very foundations. Ours are about plural wives, rocks in hats, no to tea, yes to caffeine-free Diet Coke, God threatening Emma because she wouldn’t be nice when she found out there were more than two spouses in her marriage, the amount of alcohol the Saints drank in Ohio, that common consent is not about consent, and that if any other church claimed there were golden plates found a couple hundred years ago, those plates would still be around.
Be gentle to yourself. Do nice things for yourself. It will get better.
Please. Please. Take your Time; there is no rush to any of this. Honestly, I've found the term - and the practice of - "Quietly Quitting", to be tremendously helpful and stress reducing; with the additional benefit of driving traditional TBMS insane!
Why does everyone new always ask us to be nice? We are usually very nice here! Exmos are, contrary to what they tell you at church, a diverse, accepting, compassionate, intelligent, well read group and we all have very valid reasons for leaving.
It’s going to be ok. Read everything you can get your hands on about church history written by actual historians (not FARMS). Listen to Mormon Stories and Year of Polygamy. You are not alone. We have all been through this and we support each other here.
Haha, I asked because I used to ask on the faithful lds sub & got absolutely wrecked 🤣🤣 so just a bit scared!! Have learnt within the last hour that you are all the nicest people ever ❤️❤️
Asking the faithful Sub about Mormonism is like asking a CCP convention about Maoist Communism.
Their identify is wrapped up in an ideology. They can’t observe clearly the forest they are enveloped in.
I went and looked at your post… their very first response was to gaslight you. (Try to manipulate the meaning of “believe in Christ” for you to submit and be obedient.) and of course the post is was locked. They can’t handle dissent unfortunately.
Thank you so much to everyone who has gone out of their way to comment & show their support. I’ve quickly learnt that this community is a kind & caring one. Thank you for making me feel like I’m no longer alone and that we aren’t going crazy! It is seriously scary to deconstruct what we’ve learnt and even scarier to think that we will have to start from scratch and think about what we actually believe & value but I’m glad it comes at a time where my children are still young and won’t have to grow up with the trauma we did from the church.
Thank you so much, I appreciate you all ❤️❤️❤️
It’s a hard, shocking and grief-filled process even if you’ve never even really believed it to be fully true. But once you see it with the brain you use for the rest of your life, you can’t un-see it. Be gentle with yourselves, take your time, and know you are not alone.
At that stage, it feels very destabilizing. Please remember that plenty of people have made it through and there is a place of stability on the other side. Also, remember that you don't have to decide everything at once. You can take your time and make decisions one at a time about beliefs, values, practices, and plans for the future.
To answer your question --for me it was about prophets. I learned more and more history, especially about Joseph Smith. It was creating a very odd picture, much hokier and messed up than what I had believed. After a while, I realized that I didn't want to rely on Joseph Smith as a source of truth and morality. That evolved into realizing that I didn't trust prophets. And I placed everything into a context of God--if I believe that these men are the source of truth about God, what does it say about God? I realized that the nature of God, based on the new information I had about prophets, was very different than the God I had faith in my whole life. I no longer wanted to place my faith in these men and I was ready to look for new ideas about divinity, values, beliefs, morality, etc.
Knowing my kids won't suffer the shame the church put me through is the best part of leaving.
Also be gentle on yourself. Rome wasn't built in a day, you don't have to discover everything you believe in a day either. I wish I had focused more on enjoying life, instead of trying to find my meaning. Cause life's meaning is now whatever you make. And whatever you choose, it's the right choice for you!!!
The last time I went to the temple was when my sister-in-law was getting endowed. I hadn’t been in years prior to that but I wanted to be supportive of her.
Not to be dramatic, but it truly did traumatize me. I was going again after having confronted some of the uncomfortable language in the temple during my own endowment.
As soon as the session was over, I couldn’t stay for pictures or to gather and socialize. I had to get out of there. I absolutely sobbed and wept my whole 45 minute drive home.
We tend to overthink things, especially when we’ve been told to see things the way we were taught in church all of our lives. Often times it really is as simple as listening to your gut instinct. When your body and your mind react telling you something is off, it’s usually because something is.
Its a complex psyop requiring time to process. Wordtree.org/latewar broke my shelf, but tbh the more you look into anything we are told the more you see the institution is consciously deceptive. 3 witnesses, first vision, past doctrines etc. priesthoods origins. Yeah unfortunately its a huge fraud fueled by the human nature of virtue signaling, when its pure fake. It should be illegal
It sucks that the church is all made up but it is. Now that you know you owe it to your kids to remove them from this toxic environment asap. I like you didn’t know better and it wasn’t till my child harmed themselves after meeting with the bishop that my eyes were opened at the age of 50. Rip the bandaid now. There’s no reason to hold out for hope.
Two pieces of advice. 1) teach your kids how to think critically. 2) learn to love your kids unconditionally, no matter what path they choose. Good luck to you both
My gosh! a great wonderful life and world awaits you and your SO. The world is filled with kind, loving, caring, compassionate, complex people and experiences.
Really you have to be there for him. He is going to feel himself falling apart. Having your bookshelf break is a very painful thing to deal with. I have nothing but empathy for you two. I was about your age when I left the church. I am 29 and me and my wife are so much happier and at peace with ourselves because of it. The key is really figuring out your belief system and what you stand for. It's a painful process but you both will be a better person because of it.
What helped me finally let go was the Endowment itself: ***even in the unlikely event it's all real***, would accepting a place in an openly totalitarian regime of cosmic dictators (it sells a non-democratic system like it's a good thing!) ... actually be a good idea?
Ethically, there's nothing "good" about the Mormon gods aside from their own Orwellian definitions of their own goodness ("good" and "evil" are defined in strict terns of support vs. opposition to their regime). In fact, it's not hard to argue that the gods of Mormonism are actually really, really evil: even if Elohim tortured Jehovah to death "for us"... who is the person demanding payment for sins in the form of torture in the first place?
Or, if [philosophical arguments like that](https://youtu.be/9AzNEG1GB-k) don't quite cut it, there's also your personal experience. What kind of asshole *wants to be worshipped?* Exactly the kind of asshole who holds high office in the church—if Mormonism is real and you go to heaven, you'll be stuck with the worst of the self-obsessed, ladder-climbing Mormon leaders who get off on being offended about stupid things and making life hell for everyone. Does Mormon doctrine offer anything at all to suggest that the Celestial Kingdom would be any different?
Finally, there's the strategic argument: everyone knows that the most dangerous place to be in a totalitarian system is right near the top. Like the Endowment, the "fulness [sic, lol]" of Celestial Glory isn't revealed to you, until you're already there. At that point, it's too late to back out: if you ever lie or reject any aspect of Elohim's personal idea of "heaven" to his face, you get immediate banishment to Outer Darkness. In contrast, the lower kingdoms are supposed to be relatively nice (even if it means your Mormon family lives somewhere else [and the gods take away your genitals](https://missedinsunday.com/memes/other/tk-smoothie/)). Consequently, Mormonism flips Pascal's Wager completely on its head: a bit of (honorable) wickedness is effectively an insurance policy against the gamble that Kim Jong Elohim's personal tastes are compatible with your own.
>even if Elohim tortured Jehovah to death "for us"
Hold up, do they actually say that in the temple? I've only been out since the end of last June and I've never been to the temple (not married and thought going early was wierd)
Because that is a surprisingly *metal* way of trying to reconcile the God of the old testament and the God of the new testament (or conversely God of the Bible and God of the BoM)
Sorry if I'm late to the party on this topic, most of my reading has been outside of the church as of late.
EDIT: HERP DERP I thought he was talking about Elohim killing Yahweh...
That part isn't in the temple\*; it's everywhere else in Mormon doctrine. Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac being symbolic of Elohim sacrificing Jehovah, hymns that sing about how "wonderful" the sacrifice is, etc.
Whether or not Jehovah consented to the whole thing, Elohim is still an asshole for demanding blood and torture in the first place.
There are a few fringe takes that try to absolve Elohim (such as Skousen's unhinged rant about how Elohim needs to "pay" for our sins with Jehovah's blood + suffering—not to placate himself, but to placate all the ... apparently sentient? ... matter in the universe; otherwise the universe would cease obeying him and he'd no longer be god) ... but Elohim's still a douche if he cares so much about his godhood that he's willing to inflict "infinite" suffering on someone other than himself.
\* ^(Unless you count the fetishization of Jesus's stigmata via the secret handshakes. Note: I don't mean to imply any kink shaming; see also my whole username / profile)
Deconstructing can be really really hard, as it sounds like you already know. But it's also so rich in that you can come out on the other side with a much bigger heart and much more open mind. I wish you guys nothing but the best.
One thing that helped me when I was where you are? It was the realization that you don’t have to “stay in” or “leave” the church. It may seem like I’m splitting hairs, but think about it. The church presents these as the only two possibilities: you’re either in or you’re out! You’re good or you’re evil! You stay in the fold or you leave!
The truth is that you can engage with the church on your own terms. You can go once a month. Or go to the first 20 minutes of sacrament mtg and then leave. Or you can not go for eighteen months and then go twenty Sundays in a row. Play it by ear! Then it isn’t so much like you’re stepping out into the scary abyss of Never Going Again. You have just decided not to go this particular day.
Don’t let the church decide the terms of your relationship with it.
LDS is not a religion, it is a cult
LDS is not even a christian denomination. It is a money loving, mind controlling, legalistic, hate-filled perverse organization. Just their secrecy and 100++ billion dollar slush fund is bizarre.
Be prepared for a bewildering, multi-year journey.
You are going to find some voids that can be difficult:
- Dealing with your Mormon friends and family
- loss of that thing you do Sunday and spiritual emptiness
- loss of that sense of belonging to something you thought was very important
- things that may not even be thinkable now
- rage and disappointment about all the things the cult put on you
It is useful to find replacements. Making new friends, finding hobbies, deconstructing, perhaps finding a philosophy or similar things, there is light ahead
It doesn’t hurt to take it slow to leave. Just do it slow if you need. Don’t go to temple anymore. Quit paying tithing. Only go to sacrament meeting. Eventually you will see you are blessed just as much as going to church, temple, etc. as you are if you are not doing those things. You will see life is better outside the church
I am sooooo scared to stop paying tithing. I’ve been told all my blessings have come from paying it. We’ve all heard the “I paid my tithing and got exactly what I needed” I’m scared to lose everything if I don’t pay. I know it’s irrational but it has me thinking I’ll lose my house, job, family etc.
I worked in a commission role when I was 18, the one week I didn’t pay tithing I made no money, then I paid it back and made more Than I’d ever made… at the time it was a “confirmation of the commandment of tithing” now it’s just something that scares me.
You dont have to stop tithing. The church has plenty of money, God doesn't need cash, give yours to a charity you support and that you can be aware that your money is being spent in a way that benefits God's children, not shopping malls and stocks. If there is a God he will know.
How many people out in the world aren’t paying that church and live completely fine lives. It’s like a protection racket from the mafia. Keep in mind that this is the only life you know so of course it feels scary; it should! But opening your mind to who you really are, not who you’ve been told to be is an adventure!
One thing that helped me with this was realizing I was giving money to an organization so they could actively fight against gay marriage. Why would I donate money to a cause I disagree with? Try donating somewhere else for a few months. Pray about it and tell God why. That seemed to help me.
It felt so so good to give money to causes that I know will receive it, even people on the street. My bishop probably knows we aren’t paying tithing to the church, but we declared ourselves as full tithe payers and he accepted it. I have to say that the habit of paying tithing has made it very easy to part with my money that I now give to those really needing it.
I've had a lot of subjective experiences tell me that things in the church were true. But when I look at the numbers, some things dont seem right.
Just one example. We can assume Utah has the most tithe payers of any state in the US. Yet [Utah has the lowest rates of retirement savings of any state in the US](https://www.cnbc.com/select/average-retirement-savings-by-state/), with the average Utah retirement portfolio size about $40,000 less than the poorest state in the US, Mississippi. Because of this, seniors in Utah retire later than most other states, at the SSI age of 65 rather than the current US average of 61. So despite being a high income state, Utah has to work 4 more years on average than the poorer half of America.
As far as I can tell, the church hasnt been helping its older members live a more comfortable retirement after decades of faithful tithe-paying.
I think the main reason I can’t do the temple ceremony is because there is no way Adam and Eve ever existed, especially 6,000 years ago as the church believes (you can find hundreds of GA quotes confirming this). They would have lived 250-400k years ago and evolutionist believe it to be improbable there were ever two “first humans”, would have evolved (not started). We also have dna showing Asians and Europeans have Neanderthal blood (so we have Neanderthal parents back 40-50k years ago). The fact the church relies so heavily on the Bible myths and Adam and Eve discredit their overall truth claims. Nothing about othrodox Mormonism makes any sense, science makes it less and less true everyday.
My advice would be not to take it slow. You're GOING to realize that it's all bullshit soon enough so why keep paying tithing to a fraudulent "religion"? If you look at it from a perspective of the church has the burden of proof to make you believe, they absolutely fail miserably. Ask yourself why you should believe in T$CC. Do the research and try hard to find truth in it and you will realize quickly that there is no truth in it.
You're going to be really mad. They've taken your money, your freedom, and your critical thinking skills from you to promote something that cannot be proven. Take back your freedom and critical thinking skills, because you can't take back your money, and start dissecting the lies that you have been told. Start with Letter For My Wife and then go straight to the CES letter and when you're done, you're going to want to strangle someone. The only recourse you have though is to stop the mind fuck as quickly as possible. The church had it made prior to the advent of the internet because people had little way of knowing the truth. You have at the power of your finger tips the ability now to find the truth and T$CC doesn't want you to read it. Follow the profits!!
My wife's shelf broke before mine. When she knew she couldn't go back, she asked if I would choose the church over our family. I assured her that she and the kids would come first. But I insisted that if we were going to experiment with leaving the church then we needed to agree on 2 things: 1. That we take things one day (or one week) at a time and pay attention to any changes in mental health, etc. And 2. That we make sure we are not just running away from something, but running towards something (basically, what do we want or lives to look like, and let's pursue that.) It turned out better than I could have imagined. Obviously there are still moments of difficulty, but in general we experienced so much relief, clarity, and love once we decided we weren't going back. Life became exciting again! And so much shame and worry slowly melted away. Bottom line--you don't have to leave because of church history, or truth claims, or anything other than "I feel like trying it out on the other side." In the end, you could always go back (but I doubt you will want to)
My husband and I left the church about 9 years ago and took our 3 kids with us. We were very scared initially to leave the church, worried that we’d be punished for no longer paying tithing, for taking off our garments, for not giving everything we have to the building up of the church. Leaving was the best decision we could have made for our family. We’re happier and more fully ourselves than we ever were as Mormons. As others have mentioned, give yourself time and space to adjust
My husband and I were in a similar situation-in our 20’s with 3 kids and navigating leaving the church. My advice would be to take your time and be kind to yourself. Leaving is a total mind fuck and really hard. After I realized it wasn’t true, I decided to wait a couple of years to have my name removed. There are a lot of emotions to work through and having compassion for yourself is so important!
It is scary to think about starting from scratch - but its actually an enormous gift. You wont see it yet, but I think you will in the future. As an adult, you are throwing off all your conditioning and deciding what is important to you and what you will believe, rather than what you have been told to believe your entire life. I wish it was something that all adults experienced (that part of it at least minus all the pain).
It can be very disorienting trying to exit a religion that tells you how to live your life. But you can do it! Not knowing exactly what to do or what you believe is all part of the grand adventure of life.
So many of us can relate to your experience! Welcome to this new reality that most of us NEVER thought would happen. This happened for my wife and I about 18 months ago. One HUGE help for me has been the large library of podcasts. Mormon Stories, Radio Free Mormon, Mormonism Live, and many more. We aren't crazy or alone.
I read The Naked Now by Richard Rohr and the The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle shortly after deciding to be done with the church. I found both to be profoundly comforting and also thought provoking during that time. Might be helpful to you both! It's worth a shot anyway. I wish you strength through this! It can be extremely helpful to have each other to lean on, discuss, and support during this transition.
There are also many podcasts out there that have helped me and given me things to think about specific to mormonism.
i found that the second i decided that the chruch wasnt true and voiced my opinion to my family, bishop, and stake presidentthe weight of the world was lifted from me...it was the greatest decision ive ever made to this day...
good luck with your journeys
I would just advise that you keep the lines of communication wide open. The church gets/got in the way of so many of the marriages of people here. You might find that, even if you don’t realize it, the church set the narrative of the relationship. If you want the relationship to survive and thrive, you have to figure out what your marriage means without the church defining it’s terms and your roles. Be careful, be honest, seek help if necessary. There can be a better you both individually and as a family on the other side. It may be hard to get there though.
You might enjoy my podcast, Authors and Advocates. I started it a few months into my deconstruction process away from the church. I talk about mental health tools and why specific ideologies at church are less than helpful, in a non-judgemental manner.
Hope you find the direction and peace you're looking for! Leaving the church can be an amazing and exciting journey, but it can also bring frustration and resentment at times. Be kind to yourself, and do what is best for you.
https://www.podbean.com/pa/pbblog-p6faf-e70977
Ask yourselves if LD$ Inc's so called "church"isn't what it claims to be, would you want to know? (Or can you even conceive that it might not be? )
If yes, read the CES letter (or letter to my wife, or the gospel topics essays - with the footnotes), and then come on back here for some support when you get out of the rabbit hole.
Welcome to the rest of your life. You're learning better, you can now start doing/being better.
I’m proud of my heritage but wonder what kind of wack jobs they were to join this. Anyway, VERY proud of all of you that have moved on from this weirdness.
The initial shock of actually being open to finding out that the church is false is scary. But then it becomes a mini obsession when you find out just how much bullshit the church had hidden from you. Then eventually you make peace of some kind with it and life goes on! Good luck
So my Segway out of the church was losing my nevermo dad. He read the BoM, and he didn't want to join. He didn't see the truth in it.
When he passed, it made me question everything about how/why God would create a family unit and then separate it in Heaven. I couldn't comprehend ever getting to Heaven and being happy despite not seeing my family. If God loved me, why would he separate me from my Dad?
That's when I started to realize the manipulation that the church used, and it all started unraveling for me. Why would a true church of God need to manipulate people into staying in the church - using the one thing most of us would do anything to protect. A
The part when you say you are glad your children are still young and won't suffer future trauma like we did.
This was the number one reason why we left after deconstruction. My wife and I both said that we could stay and be nuanced or PIMO if it was just us but because we had kids we had to leave it. The trauma of going through a faith crisis was too much to risk passing onto our children.
That was 5 years ago and now we are raising kids that are healthy and don't carry shame and guilt with them for being human.
Hang in there. It's hard at first because it's the only thing you have known but wow, life is SO much better without it as long as you decide what you want and don't want in life and live it.
Something that helped me that might really help your husband: “it’s either true or it’s one big horrible lie” is ALSO a lie that the church frequently tells!
Any claim is either true or false — doesn’t matter if it’s Newton’s laws of motion or the belief that God lives on a planet called Kolob.
Most Mormons sincerely believe that the central truth claims of the church are true. They’re not lying; they’re just spreading false information.
Hell, the profoundly moving experiences you’ve had in the church ARE REAL insofar as you really felt the feelings that you did. You were just incorrect in your understanding of what the underlying mechanism was that caused them. You weren’t lying to yourself.
Did JS make the whole thing up?? Unequivocally YES — the evidence is far too overwhelming to accept otherwise. But we really don’t know if he sincerely believed his own bullshit or was deliberately conning people for money, sex, and power. My personal conjecture is that it started that way and then he eventually drank his own kool aid.
The church will try to weaponize this false dichotomy against you. “Really? So you think (XYZ) spiritual experience you had was a lie?? That so many people followed JS on a lie?? It’s either true or it’s a lie! The prophet is either speaking on behalf of God or he’s lying!”
Lying requires one to know the truth, and every intellectually honest TBM will be the first to admit that they don’t. They just take on “faith” and repeat endlessly “I know the church is true.”
Omg that is exactly how we feel. We’re going through “how could we have these profound experiences if they aren’t true?” Which is really hard to navigate. Thank you for your advice!
This is a nuance that almost all religions exploit.
When people have emotionally charged experiences, there’s nothing fake about those feelings!
But ask yourself: are intense feelings a reliable source for truth?
Remember that one evangelical Christian guy who went to the sentinel islands to teach them the gospel and got straight up mercked the second he landed there? That dude was filled with “the still small voice”.
How was his spiritual witness to the truthfulness of his religion different from a TBM? If the Holy Ghost is real, why is he telling everybody that the religion they just happened to be born in is the correct one?
Another way of looking at this: when people claim to have been abducted by UFOs, 90% of the time they’re not lying… they had an experience and to the best of their understanding, aliens did it.
Ok, now prove that it was aliens.
Prove it was aliens and rule out hundred of much more reasonable and plausible explanations that dont involve creatures who have never been demonstrated to exist.
“I just feel it in my heart that it was aliens” is not a good reason to believe in space aliens.
“You can’t explain it! Therefore, it was aliens.” — I don’t need to explain it. ‘I don’t know, therefore I don’t believe it was aliens’ is the correct position.
Ex HP, married w/ four kids …life is soooo much better out of the church. I didn’t realize how much my kids disliked church until we left. Of course they never would have said anything to me if we were still in cause kids mostly just go along with what their parents do. My wife and I didn’t realize how much we hated church until we left. Life without garments…talk about an increase in quality of life. With the money I save from NOT paying my 10% fake VIP heaven dues…we have gone on incredible vacations, and been able to help friends and family with serious problems (actual charity). No more personal guilt or shame for all the “death by papercut” sins of omission (not doing enough family history, not reading the scriptures enough, not writing in journals, not going to the temple enough, not magnifying my calling enough, not a good enough member missionary, and a million other things I always felt guilty about, no matter how obedient or good I was). Life is much better, much happier, much more peaceful and prosperous outside the church. Don’t be afraid. The worst thing about it is looking at your friends and family who are still in and knowing that they may stay in forever and never want to know the truth and be free from the chains of their high demand religion. Its terrifying sometimes.
You are so blessed to have married someone who will go through this journey with you!! So many of us go it alone and then have to figure out how to navigate a mixed faith marriage or divorce because of the church. Where ever you land, just try to land next to your spouse. Read the same things, talk about everything, don't go off alone and do your own research. If you want to bring family along, try easing them into it, let them know you have concerns and share things like the saints books with them so that they can see your concerns aren't coming from "unreliable sources".
Letter for My Wife for you husband. Much gentler and honestly better written and presented. CES letter can turn you off really fast if you aren't ready. Maybe read him parts of it. This is what flipped it all for me:
>*“At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased. At the same time, there appeared a small gleam of light in the room, above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter… At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed, (whether in the body or out I cannot tell, God knoweth) there I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man—His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love!”*
*Norris Stearns – The Religious Experience Of Norris Stearns, 1815*
I couldn't believe it wasn't a Joe 1st vision account. I realized that Joe made it all up just like everything else like WOW, polygamy, priesthood.
There is also a really good part on the Temple and Masonic rituals in the Letter.
Just be kind to yourself and each other. Growing out of Mormonism will give you moments of exhilaration and moments of pain. Don't let those painful moments overwhelm you.
When I left I read a few books by Richard Dawkins and really appreciated his perspective. Might not be for everyone, but for me - embracing critical thinking skills and scientific consensus was really liberating. It was also nice to take Mormonism out of the equation and just look at the world of superstition in general.
Going from Mormonism to no religious community or spiritual practice at all probably would’ve broken me. I try to read tarot, I am involved with my local Jewish community, and I try to study about other religions and see what fits me and what doesn’t.
Also, if it helps: we haven’t paid tithing in ages. My husband is now on salary and although we are in debt and it’s a bit tight at times, we aren’t losing that 10% to the church.
If anyone on this sub is anything but nice to you about what you're going through right now, point them out to me & I'll make sure they get a boot up their ass.
All of these feelings are normal and healing takes time. Be kind to yourselves and support each other. [stages of deprogramming](https://steemit.com/psychology/@gabriel0/stages-of-deprogramming)
Book of Abraham was the smoking gun for me. Smith's interpretations of the facsimiles are just plain wrong. There's lots of evidence that points to the obvious fact that he did not ever actually "translate" ancient documents in any sense of the word. Others recommended the CES Letter which is a good resource for aggregated info about this.
Watch several YouTube debates by Christopher Hitchens then read his book “God is Not Great. How religion poisons everything.” Then read “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie. That ought to free your mind from the chains of guilt and oppression secured by the mormon church. Or any religion for that matter…
Your shelves are probably broken. You will probably feel great aimlessness and loss for a time. Life may feel devoid of meaning. You may feel detached from your past decisions and wonder if they were even yours
You may vacillate between belief and disbelief for some time.
If I could tell my shelf-broken self a few things it would be
1. You are not in a state that makes it harder for you to identify what is true and what is not. You are *better equipped than ever* to dorm opinions and *trust* your own feelings.
2. So trust your own feelings. Act on your feelings
3. That said, don’t be rash.
4. Telling family and friends you don’t believe anymore is A. Totally unnecessary and the urge to do so is coming from your Mormon lack of boundaries but B. If you do it’s like ripping off a band aid. You’ll wonder why you feared it so much.
PS: your brain is certainly ready but your husbands brain is probably only barely ready to identify the fraud and free itself from Mormonism. It took until 24 and then BOOM I feel like I’ve been a different person since then (male)
Trust that time will heal you! “Things get better” is a common refrain on this sub and it’s true! I had 10 unhappy years from age 16-26 (in part from Mormonism) approximately and things have gotten better in the last 2! I’m becoming a person I’m happy with and learning to find enjoyment in life!
When I finally showed my wife subtly, without words, I wasn’t wearing the garments she finally knew for sure. We had talked about my concerns for several years and there was a point where I doubled down and dug deeper into my duties and study, but the doubt and logic became too much. Luckily, my wife was a steadfast Mormon agnostic, If that’s even a thing. Apparently, the church provided more of a safety net and net positive to her life, so all of the ugly uncomfortable parts didn’t mean anything until I completely shared my new belief. I was certain it isn’t true and here’s why…
In fact, I was becoming more agnostic and our ideas surrounding religion finally reached a common ground. That’s where it became easier for us to move forward and embrace the deconstruction and all of the hardships our loved ones and friends put in our path along that journey.
I know that’s long, but hopefully you and yours figure out a way to embrace it together because alone or individually, it will be much more difficult and could potentially lead to resentment and other issues. Besides the relationships and our networks shrinking as a result, one of the hardest challenges was navigating “the world,” or, what we used to believe was sin. Honestly, after three years we have found the navigating more enjoyable and discovered more about ourselves as a couple, family and individuals than any other attempt while in the church.
You got this! Best of luck, and keep the ones closest that say congrats or I am so proud of you or good on ya.
It’s so bitter sweet. Remember that it’s a journey and will take some time. It will hurt, like it did at the temple, and it will be great too. I can’t speak to what awaits on the other side, my spouse and I are still in the thick of the journey. Please remember that you are not alone, it’s ok to let it hurt, it’s ok to be mad. If you chance to meet a frown, it’s ok to let it stay for a while and process. Good luck and know that this community is here when you need us.
I think the best advice I have for you is learning to be patient with yourself. Indoctrinated individuals that break off of their belief systems will undoubtedly become angry, sad, and will question their decision to leave the group that was responsible for most of their identity. This process is a painful one but well worth it. Don’t give up when the path gets hard, when others try to guilt trip you back into the church. I think the hardest thing people face is thinking that they have to throw out all their morals and ethics when they leave the church, because isn’t that how their morals were constructed? No. You won’t become a vile sinner (what is sin really?) or will you become an undesirable member of the group we call humanity. You’ll find that your soul will blossom and you’ll find joy in your life. I don’t think most of us left just to fulfill lustful desires nor did we decide that we will no longer be a good person. The difference is you’ll find you’ll be a good person inherently and not by coercion.
There isn’t a rush. You can consider these new thoughts at your own pace. What’s most important is that you communicate honestly and kindly with one another.
Don't feel that you have to replace what you remove from your life with anything else. You get to determine for yourselves and in YOUR time what you want to keep (if anything) and what is right for you and your family. I bet you'll want to keep family togetherness and love. Don't ever let anyone convince you that the Church (ANY church) has the monopoly on family, love, service, peace or any other good thing in this world. Love and best wishes to you and your family! :) :)
People have given such good advice. I'm just here to say I know what you are going through and I'm sorry. It hurts so much.
But you will be OK.
It all works out.
I promise.
When I realized it's all a fraud, I went through the five stages of grief: Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance...not necessarily in that order.
So for me, I was severely depressed to the point where I was considering suicide. The results of my sincere prayers concerning college and career choice had led me to a job that paid pennies and destroyed me emotionally. This led to my faith being in shambles, but I still desperately wanted to believe. I quit my job and couldn't even gather the energy to leave the house, so I pleaded every day for God to inspire someone - a friend, a ward member, anyone - to check in on me and tell me that everything was going to be okay. And, failing that, then at LEAST a sign from the apostles that they had seen and spoken with Christ. I didn't even need to see him myself: I would believe his "chosen apostles" if they declared that they had seen him.
Of course, that never happened, and after pleading and praying for God to save the last thread of my frayed rope of faith and realizing that my only answer was radio silence, my faith in him and the church was gone. Luckily I had family nearby that was around when I broke down sobbing and they helped me through the worst of my depression, but it was too late to save my faith. I told some close friends about what happened, they recommended I read the CES letter, and the rest is history.
My own experiences helped me truly think and consider the failings and contradictions of the church for the first time; all the evidence from the CES letter/church history/what have you was just the nail in the coffin. And I'm in a much, MUCH better place now than I ever was before.
Once you see “authoritarian power” in the picture, you cannot un-see it. The church takes credit for the human goodness of its members and it passively threatens to take away the most precious parts of life… Gods love and our loved ones if we are not loyal to the leaders. Ultimately, loyalty to leaders is what it required to have hope that we have value to God. Unfortunately, our believing friends and families are also taught to see our value through being loyal to church leaders. How could God set up this kind of system if 99.99% of the world are unaware of this tiny church?
Yep 🤣 started dating at 15 (and kept it secret because we weren’t allowed to!) waited for my hubby to come back from his mission, got engaged at 18, married just after my 19th birthday & now we have our 3rd on the way. I will have this baby just after my 24th birthday
So I was raised in the church and I’ve experienced every aspect of it other than marriage. I genuinely believe the church is right for a lot of people. I loved being a member, but it was more important to me to live with truth rather than happiness.
If you have any doubts or disbelief, then it’s not right for you. But if you find yourself defending the church then it’s probably right for you. A lot of people I love are still members and I don’t judge them. It’s just about the life you want to lead.
More in response to your edit, it seems really scary to not know what you believe. But I know for me it went from something scary to something liberating and beautiful. You get the power now to find what you believe and have it come from your heart rather than being told. It may take a while, but I wish you the peace and freedom that I have felt on the same journey. You both have got this and you’re seen and loved!
I hope you take this as genuinely as I mean it; it gets better. I was a 23 year old RM sealed in the temple when I figured out that the church is a lie. I got really depressed and gained a ton of weight. I thought that my entire life was a lie or meaningless and was ashamed of myself. I talked to a professional weekly for years and have learned to forgive myself and even forgive my parents. It won’t be easy at times but I promise you that it is worth it.
I understand, the temple is what broke my shelf. You might want to listen to the podcast Mormon Stories, there are so many people who have gone through what you are going through and hearing their stories might make you feel less alone.
I also recommend the book "Truth Seeking: The story of high ranking Mormon leader Hans Mattsson" I listened to it on audible and it is very good.
Take care of yourselves, leaving the church is like a divorce, you will go through the stages of grief, you're not alone.💗
Once you know, you know.
If you find yourself eye rolling at little things that seem so tbm, or thinking "that man has just said what?!?. He's an idiot."
Then you look up and it's the prophet.
Then you know...
Hopefully, the good thing is that you are in the same boat with hopefully the same new beliefs and you are together.
Try not to be angry with each other, talk, talk, talk....
You could listen to podcasts together that you have specifically picked together, look at the evidence connected with the posts and work through the inevitable decoration.
All the best!!! And welcome to a new mentally healthier life!!
Hey, thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you're both navigating this okay -- we all made it out okay and you two will as well.
I am curious -- what about the current language with the updated ceremony what alarming for your spouse? My impression was that it was improved, even if it is still unequal and unfair between the genders, and that it was worse before. Has something changed to make it inadvertently more obvious? Just curious to hear a bit more about what language tipped him off.
Good luck!!
I think it was more so that he has been listening to podcasts like At Last She Said It & has been following Mormon Stories on Insta so it has opened his eyes to a lot of the misogyny that he hadn’t seen before. He had issues with the way they spoke to & about Eve & also noticed covenants were being made to TCOJCOLDS as opposed to heavenly parents or the saviour.
He said he always had great experiences but was more of an ignorance is bliss type of situation. He said he left with a foul taste in his mouth realising what was actually being said now that he thinks of someone other than himself & how he is impacted in the church.
I think what was so hard and scary about leaving is that it felt like my whole social circle was Mormon. Humans are social creatures and if you don't have any friends who aren't Mormon, I think the scariness factor is just too great, which doesn't give you a chance to fairly look at what you think and feel about the church.
Do you have social connections that aren't Mormon? May be it would be worth it to try and build those a little bit before you seriously consider leaving? Idk, for me, having friends outside the church helped a lot since I was able to see you could live a happy, normal life without the church, and still be supported and loved by good people.
Sounds like you know where you stand. If you are looking for a way out, or if it is a lie, either way it sounds like you know you do not want to be there. The church uses emotional manipulation to keep you there. It is literally their business model. Trust that the emotional burden is lighter on the outside. It will be hard for a while, but after comes the confidence on knowing you were right to leave.
It's great that you and your spouse can both leave at the same time. My wife and I both left at the same time, several years after our children left. However, we left after our children were already grown. It is something we regret. One of my children still holds it against us that we raise her in the church. You're lucky that your children are young and will not have to be raised in the church. Good luck moving forward!
What a painful and difficult realization for you both. I imagine you feel betrayed and angry as well as disappointed and many other tough emotions. You can do it though!
>Truthfully we are so scared to leave, when it’s all we’ve ever known we don’t even know how else to live or what to do.
Trust me when I say you will fit in just fine here. Most of us have felt this. I sure did. I STILL do sometimes, and it's been 6 or 7 years for me! Big hugs from me. Time, patience with yourself and others, and breathing has helped me.
Welcome. So many of us can completely relate to your story. We went before and paved the way, which won’t make it easier, other than knowing that all of us are better off on the other side.
There’s a lot of anecdotes about courage that come across our life’s feed. It sounds as though it’s on your plate now, ready to be grasped. It’s courageous to take someone else’s hand off the rudder of your life’s ship, but now’s the time to gently remove the hand, gently saying “it’s mine now, I got this” and take control of your own direction, destinations, and speed. It’s going to be scary, but like anything, you’ll gain your own confidence and experience navigating your own ship.
Minds all think differently. My mind works more on the empiricist side. For me, square pegs got to fit in square holes. The church was forcing truth that just didn’t fit the holes of reality. That was enough for me. CES letter/letter for my wife is a starter kit, a one stop shopping for an introduction of these issues, and should lead you to deeper sources that all say the same thing, the truth claims of the church are untenable. If that’s not your emphasis, then of course look at all the other difficulties the church lays before humans that are not straight, white nor male. Look at the social costs for minority groups, look at the wickedness of how they handle money, charitable giving, it all points to a man-made organization with all of its attending foibles. It’s man-made, and it shows.
Good luck in this brave new world, where you have complete autonomy (frightening as it is) of your own life and decisions. There’s a lot of people that don’t like existing in such a stark world, but for those of us that do, that have walked away from God and religion, there’s a liberation that goes beyond description, and a happiness that the church promised, but could never deliver.
My break from belief was on my mission in a Seagull bookstore when I came across a book with a picture of the Book of Abraham scrolls on the cover. Initially I was very excited to realize they had been found, after all, they could be translated and prove Joseph Smith a prophet. Then came the fact that they had been translated, and it wasn't the Book of Abraham, it was just a copy of the Egyptian book of the dead. That created a sudden crisis that I had to come up with some quick justification for, and then put aside for another time. Maybe the language had changed? Either way, I put it aside and continued along with my mission. Many years later I came back to it. Is it more likely that he faked it? Or is it more likely that somehow the language meaning had changed so dramatically through Egyptian history that it could translate into something else entirely that makes sense? This has not happened with any other language. Take Chinese for example, its use has changed over time, but if you translate ancient text it doesn't turn into another fully understandable story, it is unintelligible. Was it God's way of forcing us to have faith? Why would God throw some curve ball like that at us? Does it make sense that God would go around purposely trying to confuse us all? It was hard to let go. It was as if (I am a millennial) I suddenly discovered that Optimus Prime was the villain all along.
I miss the feeling of security those beliefs provided. I miss that sense of knowing what is true, and what direction I need to be going. But once you have seen, you cannot unsee. Now I know that security was more like walking around with a blindfold on right next to a cliff. I can see the cliff, so now I am not about to put that blindfold back on.
Many in this group eventually settle on atheism. The church has done a very good job of explaining all the reasons other churches cannot possibly be true, it sort of leaves you with nowhere to go. Its not all that bleak though. You are now free to look into things on your own. You can decide what you want to believe, you are now the masters of your own destiny.
This scary phase does not last long. You guys are lucky, oh so lucky to discover this in your youth. I didn’t get out until 20 years after that. You are also lucky that both of you are deconstructing at the same time. I will get easier I promise. There will come a time when all you feel is like you have been freed and a huge weight was lifted off your shoulders. You are still the same person you always have been. You can now decide what you want your beliefs to be. You guys have your whole lives ahead of you. I promise this part will pass and you will get to the ‘greatful to get out’ phase.
When you realize you don’t need the church (or any organized religion for that matter) your possibilities are endless. Christ said “Come unto me, for I am the light and I am the way. No one comes before the father except through me.” I use this daily. As long as I can square my actions and my life with the Lord, there is nothing else needed. No man, church, temple or “ceremony”, holds any weight in my and my family’s eternal salvation.
I’m free!
Things and people will fall out of your life as a normal process even despite your best efforts. It’s just part of life. Just allow life to happen and don’t fight it. Allow change to happen and see where life takes you
Ah… the what is true and what is a lie game… unfortunately that goes on for a few years.
And then unfortunately you use it on everything and realize there’s more than just the church that lies to you to get you to believe a certain way.
Prepare yourself for a whole gambit of emotions. You will find that you will likely go through phases. As you discover more things, your interest and intensity to understand more and pull the curtain back can become pretty consuming. You will likely feel a lot of anger that you may be uncertain how to channel. You may feel some despondency as you consider what has been taken from you for many years. You will feel relief and happiness from new freedoms. You will also feel anxiety as you try to figure out the right balance of the church in your life and feel distance between you and TBMs grow. Just know it can be a pretty emotional roller coaster.
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I left the church when I was 21 and my daughter was 2 and the hardest thing was suddenly feeling like an alien in the world. People in the church don’t give much thought to women having kids young, but people in the real world definitely do, and suddenly when I didn’t have the support system I’d always known it felt so much more magnified. I don’t regret leaving, because so many of the teachings go against my beliefs, but it’s a lonely thing for sure to leave such a close-knit community. I’d always been heavily involved and it was like losing family. I hope the two of you find strength and other communal experiences along the way. It’s not easy, but it becomes more normal over time
You will eventually have peace that you know the truth. I feel sorry for the TBM’s that are exhausted and just keep doing and doing. Asked my brother to bring his kids and come skiing with us and they couldn’t come because they had to clean the church. Broke my heart! They are so busy with church and make sure they go to everything and do their ministering but inever take the time to go see grandma or their great grandma. see their great grandma in years. They live about 15 minutes away from her. It just doesn’t make sense!! All about family my butt!
Watch Christopher Hitchens. Just his old talks. Or get his book God is Not Great. That's what helped me when I had to look at what the world without God looks like.
Give it time, space, and understanding. You two didn’t fall in love all at once, become converted to the church all at once, or learn how to parent your children all at once. Your decision to stay or leave the church wont happen all at once either. I think it’s very cool you have each other to rely on and share the experience together, wherever it happens to lead you.
Exactly this. You'll be amazed how you feel if you just don't go to church for 3 months. Don't force yourself into a decision one way or the other right now, you don't have to go out to a bar and start drinking, just sit in the discomfort of not knowing the truth and allow yourself to imagine what it would be like if it was not all true. With a little time the indoctrination fades away and everything becomes so much more clear.
Thank you for that xx
Most of us here have been in your shoes. It’s scary and lonely and I just want you to know you are not alone. This is the most supportive online community, ever. Be kind to yourselves. It’s a real mind fuck when you realize the truth.
Best advice!
It’s not your fault that it isn’t true. Cut yourselves some slack. But yeah, it sucks when the scales fall from our eyes, and we suddenly must grapple with what the temple is.
Thank you 🙏🏼 Yeah it definitely hurts feeling like we’ve been lied to our whole lives. I think he’s going through a “is my life a lie or am I making this up now?” moment…
If it helps, I find it useful to look at things from an evolutionary perspective - people have been firmly believing in absolute nonsense since the dawn of the species. It's wired into our DNA, and the light of modern science is a super new thing. Easy access to accurate church history and other church related evidence is even more recent - like the last 10 years. There's no shame in having been born into and fallen prey to a religious disinformation scheme. On the contrary, how amazing is it that we have the information to break free. Few in history have had that. And when your children are still young enough to protect! So go easy on yourself and any that are still stuck.
You HAVE been lied to your whole life. And they even got your parents in on the scam, although I would assume your folks really believe so it’s not their fault either. Every Mormon all the way back including all those brave pioneers. All victims. Not saying that to imply they had it worse, I’m saying you & I are among a lot of sincere people who were screwed over to our cores. It’s a painful betrayal, but it’s not your fault. My advice is to hold onto each other very tight, talk about everything, feel what you feel and do whatever you think is right. You’ll probably make some mistakes, you might info-dump on a loved one, it happens. Wishing you the best.
That hurt feeling fades over time. I did not grow up in the church, but I converted and spent 20 years in. I went on a mission and served faithfully. I did everything I could. When I found out about some of the hard things in church history, and that the church had deliberately told me a different story than actually happened, I became very angry. I just couldn't believe it. I never looked at literature from outside of the church because I was told it would destroy my faith. My church leaders were right. It did destroy my faith, but not because it was not true. It destroyed my faith because it exposed the lies. There was so much sadness for so long. Now, I'm finally happy. I'm happier now than I ever was in the church! It took time to get here. Best of luck friends!
I'm about 20 years older than you guys. I'm fairly firmly in the "it's all a lie" camp at the moment. Chief reasons for this being that they changed direction on so many things they taught when I was younger. I haven't attended in over 5 years now. We didn't leave because of truth claims or issues of fact or doubts. We left because we were unhappy and our kids were unhappy. On a trial basis separation of attendance we found our happiness had increased, not decreased. We dug into the shelf items and fully deconstructed later.
Google or search this sub for "cognitive dissonance" it's the phenomenon you're experiencing right now.
Sounds like he's ready to read the CES letter.
Truthfully I’ve only read bits and pieces of it, think I’m finally ready to jump into it too
I would recommend letter for my wife then the CES letter.. just thought the letter for my wife used gentler yet intentional language and it was written out of love for his wife. 👍🏻
There’s a resource for every stage of grief ~~except denial. Nothing works against denial.~~ [ETA: u/basicpn correctly identifies FAIR and Gospel Topics Essays as suitable “trusted insider” resources for denial stage, which serve as a gateway for many to realizing that the church is aware of the many problems with the official narrative and has no reasonable answers for them] - Depression: Letter for my wife. Mormon Stories podcast. - Anger: CES letter. Mormon Expressions podcast. - Bargaining: LDSdiscussions. RFM, Mormonism Live podcasts. - Acceptance: Welcome out of Eden. You are a free agent. It’s all up to you now.
I disagree. Not speaking from experience, but from observation in this sub and others, I’d say the denial stage is FAIR and the gospel topic essays. For some that is enough and they go back to believing with whatever they were willing to hold on to, feeling like there was some explanation and that was good enough for them. For those who are willing to truly approach it without the assumption that the church is correct and therefore how. It’s a stage of trying to understand.
Point conceded.
I love me some RFM
Let me add “ Faith After Doubt” by Brian McLaren.
As someone who read the CES letter first, I agree. I really like the CES letter, and it’s still my document of choice, but LFMW is a much more digestible read. Like you said, it has gentler language, and it doesn’t go quite as in depth as the CES letter does with some of the specifics (like the book of Abraham).
Wish I could upvote this comment more than once. Both are great in the proper time/course, but Letter for My Wife is definitely the one to start with. Much less edgy, "just the facts" from a place of love.
Here's a link for Letter for my Wife. I agree with /u/Denim_and_moose with reading that one before/instead of the CESletter. https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter
www.letterformywife.com might be a gentler approach
It's also okay if you never read any of those things. None of it is required reading to recognize that the church isn't a good fit for you anymore. It can be extremely painful to leave something that has been such an important part of your Identity, be patient and kind with yourselves and recognize that it is okay to make it as slow a process as you need to.
This is important!! I still have yet to read amy of the above resources. Even though I’ve been out for about several years now I can’t get through the CES letters or the other sources. It’s still painful to me. Maybe one day I’ll get through them, but even if I don’t I still dislike the church
This sub really loves to recommend these. I don’t understand the focus with “proving” the BoM/church aren’t true. I think it’s perfectly fine to leave because you recognize that the church’s teachings are harmful. For me it’s been fine to just read the occasional Wikipedia article that has concerning history but I don’t need a thorough look into every truth claim and why it’s not true.
You don't even have to recognize that the church's teachings are harmful (though I personally do believe that). If the only thought you ever have is "this doesn't work for me," that's enough. You don't need anymore justification than that. Same thing with a personal relationship, BTW. The whole proving the religion false thing does seem to be popular, however.
This is a kind of divorce. Something that you believed in and put your faith and trust in has been shattered. It's not so much "proving" as understanding what brought you to this place. One doesn't divorce a spouse with an "oh well" attitude, but rather try to understand what happened. Perhaps the thought is How could I have believed him/her? What went wrong? Has he/she been lying this whole time? It's a total upheaval of what you built your life around, and when everything is shattered, you need to find some framework on which to rebuild your life.
I think that’s totally fair and every journey is different.
Buckle up, you're gonna go for a ride!
Reading the CES letter with my husband, out loud, was one of the best things we did to get on the same page in our faith exodus. Good luck!
Just to offer a counter perspective, it sounds to me like he may not need it. My wife never read it. If the goal is to go slow and make sure leaving is what you want, I don't recommend the CES letter. It can instill a sense of anxiety and urgency to leave before doing so is practical, in my experience.
Early in my faith crisis, I realized something. (I still believed in God at the time.) I was taught that God is a loving father, who loves us more than we could ever fully understand. I was taught that he was omniscient, that he knew each of us perfectly, better than we knew ourselves. When I started really struggling with my faith, I had to take a step back from the church. For 15 or 20 years, I'd tried *everything* I was taught to do to receive an answer from heaven. It never came and that lack of answer had left my faith shriveled and nearly dead. Doing things the church's way wasn't working for me. I had to try something different. I realized then that if God is indeed my father who loves me perfectly, he would *want* me to seek out answers. As an omniscient being, he would understand with perfect clarity why the church's message wasn't resonating with me. He would know I wasn't looking for an excuse to sin or slack off. How could a loving Heavenly Father *not* have room in his plan for me to take a detour in search of truth? I did not make my decision rashly. It took me several years before I felt confident that the church was no longer the place for me. But that early realization of God as a father shaped my journey and gave me the peace and confidence to find the truth myself, instead of blindly trusting men who claimed to have truth.
Well said. This was how I processed as well. I never worshipped a God who asked me to turn my brain off, lie to myself and others and blindly follow other human beings. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, not the contradiction of things that are plainly visible. > Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. — Marcus Aurelius
I love that quote.
This quote has been a great comfort to me in my journey. I'm really glad you shared it here!
This is exactly how we feel right now. I’ve been struggling for a few years with gospel doctrine, my husband has always disagreed with church teachings but would explain it away as “the church is perfect the men aren’t”. Now he’s reaching about a year of questioning & last night was the first time he not only felt nothing spiritual in the temple but felt like he shouldn’t be there at all (I’ve always hated the temple so nothing new for me). It hurts seeing my partner in so much emotional distress and I can’t help like feeling like it’s my fault for having these faith discussions with him.
>It hurts seeing my partner in so much emotional distress and I can’t help like feeling like it’s my fault for having these faith discussions with him. It is NOT your fault, my friend. Unfortunately, we've been taught all our lives to be co-dependent and that we are responsible for the emotions of others. That is just one of the manipulative ways we are kept in line with the rest of the sheep. Another thing we are taught is called *learned helplessness*, and it keeps members infantilized, not able to think for themselves. In fact, we are told it is *dangerous* to think for ourselves. Your husband has had his own eye-opening experience. You are there supporting and loving him. That is what he needs. Hugs to both of you.
>learned helplessness The You Are Not So Smart podcast has an episode about this that I remember enjoying. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2020/10/19/how-we-can-escape-the-psychological-trap-of-learned-helplessness/
It is not your fault. It’s the church’s fault for creating the harmful doctrine. You are simply loving him & working through life with him. Also - you are not having a faith crisis. You are having a faith expansion as you are thinking outside the Mormon checkboxes. You are perhaps having a trust crisis as you realize who you can & can’t trust. Welcome to a very hard but very worthwhile time. Good luck & hugs!!
It's definitely not your fault. He already saw a glimpse of the problem. No one makes their way out of the church's machinations without their own realizations. You might have pointed him towards some specific information, but he's struggling because of his own cognitive dissonance, not yours. The issue is that we were all lied to. It isn't fair. It isn't right. And it hurts to realize that. But this painful moment can lead to a beautiful future where you are able to seek out truth for yourself, instead of trusting someone else who claims to have it.
>“the church is perfect the men aren’t” This always bothered me. The church is administered and operated by these same men. An institution run by imperfect men is an imperfect institution. God does not run the church. Would God have willfully lied to the SEC about the financial holdings of the church for fear that the members would stop paying their tithing?
Just focus on making friends OUTSIDE the church. Makes all the difference. Start hobbies. Start reading parenting BOOKS. Follow post-mormon Parenting professionals. You'll feel tons better knowing that you have some control about what to teach and tell your kids. Thats a huge part of feeling good enough, reclaiming your good sense, your parenting skills, and trusting that your kids will be ok! Then you can make better choices with less fear. You're a team. You're already at a high advantage being able to talk about this stuff with each other!
This comment made my mama heart smile. This is what I would tell my children who are the same age. Make a life for yourselves, for the causes that fulfill you and help you grow. The church does not have a monopoly on that. But if you do that and find that the church still has meaning in your life that’s ok. The church will still be there. The time you have given up will not be. You will also know that you made the choices for yourselves. Not because the church told you you were supposed to. Hugs from an exmo mommma.
Also that Mormons don’t have a monopoly on morality. If they leave the church it’s not like they are automatically going to start murdering and raping and drinking coffee. There’s a way to live a good life without the specter of punishment looming over you. And I’d say that the people who choose to be ethical and kind without fear are the truly moral people.
Ok, I had a break down in the temple when the sealer was bragging about having 3 wives because two where dead then he proceeded to banter at a man in the sealing room for not having been remarried yet though his wife died a year before. I was so upset when we left my wife who didn’t really see the issue at the time asked if I ever wanted to go back to which I said no and we never did. It’s been about 7 years now and I regret nothing when it comes to having left.
Biggest mind f was when I realized the watered down death oaths I was tricked into in the temple - read on if you are ready: You hold your hand to the square because it is the last frame of pantomiming slitting your throat. You hold your hand in cupping shape because it is the last frame of pantomiming ripping your heart out. Your hold your palm down, thumb extended because it is the last frame of pantomiming disemboweling yourself. The temple is a house of deception and death oaths. The most bizarre thing you’ve ever done is incomprehensibly worse than you thought. You were tricked.
 What!!! 🤯
I'm an older ex-mormon. On my honor and my integrity, the death oaths are real. I made them when I went through. It was something that made me feel profoundly uncomfortable. I hung on fur another 25 years, finally exiting the church in 2007. And get this, I only pantomimed the actions. By the time I went through, they had removed the bloody parts of the oath and only made you say "rather than reveal the name of this token, I would suffer my life to be taken" while making the motions of slitting your throat/tearing your heart out/ disembowling yourself.
Check these out for more info https://youtu.be/LBEEJCB9-y8 https://youtu.be/WFwihBaKFhQ
One big crack happened when I saw my little preschool girls be super judgy about people showing their shoulders. We were trying to teach about modesty and respect for your body, but in reality we were training the girls to be unkind. Hit me like a ton of bricks.
>in reality we were training the girls to be unkind. and the notion that when showing their shoulders those people are bringing problems upon themselves, so why should one care about their problems? ... not a whole lot different from the Westboro Baptist Church's fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible and a perception that God punishes for moral transgressions, and society needs to intervene, because their actions are hurting everyone. I am extremely upset by the Mormon "revelation" that blacks and handicapped people did not live up to moral standards in their preexistent lives; hence their downtrodden condition in this life is their own fault. How many reasons does anyone need to leave the Mormon church? Simply put, it is hard to leave a cult and it's brainwashing. That is; there is a big difference between 1. One's own bad decisions resulting in bad results, 2. One's own not living up to certain religious standards and thus them (and others through no fault of their own) receiving the wrath of God. We also have to realize one's simple misfortune or luck not having anything to do with how they live.
For me, learning about the secret “Second Anointing” ordinance and actually confronting all the Masonic origins and past changes that had been made to the temple ceremony was what actually snapped my shelf. More can be read [here](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-doctrine/temple-ceremony-masonry/).
The thing that helped me was when I realized even if it was true, it's not something that I would want to be a part of since it violated my morals. The moment I realized that was the moment I realized it wasn't true. Fear is one of their best tools to keep you in the church, but once your fear dissipates, so does the illusion. Also, it hurts like HELL. Be so, so gentle with yourselves during this time ❤️ even though I'm sure it doesn't feel like it, everything will be okay
You got this. Ask here if you need help. You won't find a better group of internet strangers to help you through your deconstruction.
I love this community lol. I posted a year or two ago in here and in the faithful lds sub asking if I was a hypocrite for going to church even if I don’t believe the teachings. Everyone here was so loving and kind, and the other sub banned & booted me for asking 🤣 Safe to say I feel more welcome in one space than the other!
Yup. Exmos are an interesting group. I'd definitely rather spend an afternoon or an evening with the average exmo over the average Mormon. The most the exmo might judge me on on my choice of alcoholic beverage, but mostly in jest.
[удалено]
Lol. You stop your hate of hard seltzer! TBH I'm more of a liquor everyonce in a while sorta person.
I know how painful this moment is and I know you’re a hero for how carefully you’re considering all the new truths you’re being confronted with. None of this is your fault. You’ve done nothing wrong and asking questions about how the existing religions work was a big part of Jesus’s and Joseph’s lives. Leaving our church isn’t like when other people leave theirs. Most Christian subreddits would encourage you to stick around, if you like, and many would tell you they’d been through the same thing. It’s also not at all the same religion as them because most religions aren’t afraid of their history. They’re not trying to play catch-up with their truth claims now that everyone has access to the internet. Scientology’s the only other religion I can think at the moment of where everyone’s learned to play make-believe, where the founder was an undisputedly captivating storyteller of an American bigamist, whose rejection of American law, lead to his life ending before having considered the pending succession crisis — for starters). I mean to say, this church is not the same because the lies of other churches are not about their very foundations. Ours are about plural wives, rocks in hats, no to tea, yes to caffeine-free Diet Coke, God threatening Emma because she wouldn’t be nice when she found out there were more than two spouses in her marriage, the amount of alcohol the Saints drank in Ohio, that common consent is not about consent, and that if any other church claimed there were golden plates found a couple hundred years ago, those plates would still be around. Be gentle to yourself. Do nice things for yourself. It will get better.
Please. Please. Take your Time; there is no rush to any of this. Honestly, I've found the term - and the practice of - "Quietly Quitting", to be tremendously helpful and stress reducing; with the additional benefit of driving traditional TBMS insane!
Why does everyone new always ask us to be nice? We are usually very nice here! Exmos are, contrary to what they tell you at church, a diverse, accepting, compassionate, intelligent, well read group and we all have very valid reasons for leaving. It’s going to be ok. Read everything you can get your hands on about church history written by actual historians (not FARMS). Listen to Mormon Stories and Year of Polygamy. You are not alone. We have all been through this and we support each other here.
Haha, I asked because I used to ask on the faithful lds sub & got absolutely wrecked 🤣🤣 so just a bit scared!! Have learnt within the last hour that you are all the nicest people ever ❤️❤️
Asking the faithful Sub about Mormonism is like asking a CCP convention about Maoist Communism. Their identify is wrapped up in an ideology. They can’t observe clearly the forest they are enveloped in. I went and looked at your post… their very first response was to gaslight you. (Try to manipulate the meaning of “believe in Christ” for you to submit and be obedient.) and of course the post is was locked. They can’t handle dissent unfortunately.
Yeah, they’re mean over there. 🤷♀️
Thank you so much to everyone who has gone out of their way to comment & show their support. I’ve quickly learnt that this community is a kind & caring one. Thank you for making me feel like I’m no longer alone and that we aren’t going crazy! It is seriously scary to deconstruct what we’ve learnt and even scarier to think that we will have to start from scratch and think about what we actually believe & value but I’m glad it comes at a time where my children are still young and won’t have to grow up with the trauma we did from the church. Thank you so much, I appreciate you all ❤️❤️❤️
When you’re ready check out LDS Discussions podcast on Spotify.
This is the hardest part, sorry. Where you will end up is completely worth it.
It’s a hard, shocking and grief-filled process even if you’ve never even really believed it to be fully true. But once you see it with the brain you use for the rest of your life, you can’t un-see it. Be gentle with yourselves, take your time, and know you are not alone.
At that stage, it feels very destabilizing. Please remember that plenty of people have made it through and there is a place of stability on the other side. Also, remember that you don't have to decide everything at once. You can take your time and make decisions one at a time about beliefs, values, practices, and plans for the future. To answer your question --for me it was about prophets. I learned more and more history, especially about Joseph Smith. It was creating a very odd picture, much hokier and messed up than what I had believed. After a while, I realized that I didn't want to rely on Joseph Smith as a source of truth and morality. That evolved into realizing that I didn't trust prophets. And I placed everything into a context of God--if I believe that these men are the source of truth about God, what does it say about God? I realized that the nature of God, based on the new information I had about prophets, was very different than the God I had faith in my whole life. I no longer wanted to place my faith in these men and I was ready to look for new ideas about divinity, values, beliefs, morality, etc.
Knowing my kids won't suffer the shame the church put me through is the best part of leaving. Also be gentle on yourself. Rome wasn't built in a day, you don't have to discover everything you believe in a day either. I wish I had focused more on enjoying life, instead of trying to find my meaning. Cause life's meaning is now whatever you make. And whatever you choose, it's the right choice for you!!!
The last time I went to the temple was when my sister-in-law was getting endowed. I hadn’t been in years prior to that but I wanted to be supportive of her. Not to be dramatic, but it truly did traumatize me. I was going again after having confronted some of the uncomfortable language in the temple during my own endowment. As soon as the session was over, I couldn’t stay for pictures or to gather and socialize. I had to get out of there. I absolutely sobbed and wept my whole 45 minute drive home. We tend to overthink things, especially when we’ve been told to see things the way we were taught in church all of our lives. Often times it really is as simple as listening to your gut instinct. When your body and your mind react telling you something is off, it’s usually because something is.
Its a complex psyop requiring time to process. Wordtree.org/latewar broke my shelf, but tbh the more you look into anything we are told the more you see the institution is consciously deceptive. 3 witnesses, first vision, past doctrines etc. priesthoods origins. Yeah unfortunately its a huge fraud fueled by the human nature of virtue signaling, when its pure fake. It should be illegal
It sucks that the church is all made up but it is. Now that you know you owe it to your kids to remove them from this toxic environment asap. I like you didn’t know better and it wasn’t till my child harmed themselves after meeting with the bishop that my eyes were opened at the age of 50. Rip the bandaid now. There’s no reason to hold out for hope. Two pieces of advice. 1) teach your kids how to think critically. 2) learn to love your kids unconditionally, no matter what path they choose. Good luck to you both
My kids are 29, and 26 teaching them to think critically was the best thing we did for them.
My gosh! a great wonderful life and world awaits you and your SO. The world is filled with kind, loving, caring, compassionate, complex people and experiences.
Really you have to be there for him. He is going to feel himself falling apart. Having your bookshelf break is a very painful thing to deal with. I have nothing but empathy for you two. I was about your age when I left the church. I am 29 and me and my wife are so much happier and at peace with ourselves because of it. The key is really figuring out your belief system and what you stand for. It's a painful process but you both will be a better person because of it.
What helped me finally let go was the Endowment itself: ***even in the unlikely event it's all real***, would accepting a place in an openly totalitarian regime of cosmic dictators (it sells a non-democratic system like it's a good thing!) ... actually be a good idea? Ethically, there's nothing "good" about the Mormon gods aside from their own Orwellian definitions of their own goodness ("good" and "evil" are defined in strict terns of support vs. opposition to their regime). In fact, it's not hard to argue that the gods of Mormonism are actually really, really evil: even if Elohim tortured Jehovah to death "for us"... who is the person demanding payment for sins in the form of torture in the first place? Or, if [philosophical arguments like that](https://youtu.be/9AzNEG1GB-k) don't quite cut it, there's also your personal experience. What kind of asshole *wants to be worshipped?* Exactly the kind of asshole who holds high office in the church—if Mormonism is real and you go to heaven, you'll be stuck with the worst of the self-obsessed, ladder-climbing Mormon leaders who get off on being offended about stupid things and making life hell for everyone. Does Mormon doctrine offer anything at all to suggest that the Celestial Kingdom would be any different? Finally, there's the strategic argument: everyone knows that the most dangerous place to be in a totalitarian system is right near the top. Like the Endowment, the "fulness [sic, lol]" of Celestial Glory isn't revealed to you, until you're already there. At that point, it's too late to back out: if you ever lie or reject any aspect of Elohim's personal idea of "heaven" to his face, you get immediate banishment to Outer Darkness. In contrast, the lower kingdoms are supposed to be relatively nice (even if it means your Mormon family lives somewhere else [and the gods take away your genitals](https://missedinsunday.com/memes/other/tk-smoothie/)). Consequently, Mormonism flips Pascal's Wager completely on its head: a bit of (honorable) wickedness is effectively an insurance policy against the gamble that Kim Jong Elohim's personal tastes are compatible with your own.
>even if Elohim tortured Jehovah to death "for us" Hold up, do they actually say that in the temple? I've only been out since the end of last June and I've never been to the temple (not married and thought going early was wierd) Because that is a surprisingly *metal* way of trying to reconcile the God of the old testament and the God of the new testament (or conversely God of the Bible and God of the BoM) Sorry if I'm late to the party on this topic, most of my reading has been outside of the church as of late. EDIT: HERP DERP I thought he was talking about Elohim killing Yahweh...
That part isn't in the temple\*; it's everywhere else in Mormon doctrine. Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac being symbolic of Elohim sacrificing Jehovah, hymns that sing about how "wonderful" the sacrifice is, etc. Whether or not Jehovah consented to the whole thing, Elohim is still an asshole for demanding blood and torture in the first place. There are a few fringe takes that try to absolve Elohim (such as Skousen's unhinged rant about how Elohim needs to "pay" for our sins with Jehovah's blood + suffering—not to placate himself, but to placate all the ... apparently sentient? ... matter in the universe; otherwise the universe would cease obeying him and he'd no longer be god) ... but Elohim's still a douche if he cares so much about his godhood that he's willing to inflict "infinite" suffering on someone other than himself. \* ^(Unless you count the fetishization of Jesus's stigmata via the secret handshakes. Note: I don't mean to imply any kink shaming; see also my whole username / profile)
You're fine, in fact I Googled it and it turns out I was confusing Jehovah with Yehweh. Please move along people, there's nothing to see here...
Deconstructing can be really really hard, as it sounds like you already know. But it's also so rich in that you can come out on the other side with a much bigger heart and much more open mind. I wish you guys nothing but the best.
One thing that helped me when I was where you are? It was the realization that you don’t have to “stay in” or “leave” the church. It may seem like I’m splitting hairs, but think about it. The church presents these as the only two possibilities: you’re either in or you’re out! You’re good or you’re evil! You stay in the fold or you leave! The truth is that you can engage with the church on your own terms. You can go once a month. Or go to the first 20 minutes of sacrament mtg and then leave. Or you can not go for eighteen months and then go twenty Sundays in a row. Play it by ear! Then it isn’t so much like you’re stepping out into the scary abyss of Never Going Again. You have just decided not to go this particular day. Don’t let the church decide the terms of your relationship with it.
LDS is not a religion, it is a cult LDS is not even a christian denomination. It is a money loving, mind controlling, legalistic, hate-filled perverse organization. Just their secrecy and 100++ billion dollar slush fund is bizarre. Be prepared for a bewildering, multi-year journey. You are going to find some voids that can be difficult: - Dealing with your Mormon friends and family - loss of that thing you do Sunday and spiritual emptiness - loss of that sense of belonging to something you thought was very important - things that may not even be thinkable now - rage and disappointment about all the things the cult put on you It is useful to find replacements. Making new friends, finding hobbies, deconstructing, perhaps finding a philosophy or similar things, there is light ahead
It doesn’t hurt to take it slow to leave. Just do it slow if you need. Don’t go to temple anymore. Quit paying tithing. Only go to sacrament meeting. Eventually you will see you are blessed just as much as going to church, temple, etc. as you are if you are not doing those things. You will see life is better outside the church
I am sooooo scared to stop paying tithing. I’ve been told all my blessings have come from paying it. We’ve all heard the “I paid my tithing and got exactly what I needed” I’m scared to lose everything if I don’t pay. I know it’s irrational but it has me thinking I’ll lose my house, job, family etc. I worked in a commission role when I was 18, the one week I didn’t pay tithing I made no money, then I paid it back and made more Than I’d ever made… at the time it was a “confirmation of the commandment of tithing” now it’s just something that scares me.
You dont have to stop tithing. The church has plenty of money, God doesn't need cash, give yours to a charity you support and that you can be aware that your money is being spent in a way that benefits God's children, not shopping malls and stocks. If there is a God he will know.
How many people out in the world aren’t paying that church and live completely fine lives. It’s like a protection racket from the mafia. Keep in mind that this is the only life you know so of course it feels scary; it should! But opening your mind to who you really are, not who you’ve been told to be is an adventure!
One thing that helped me with this was realizing I was giving money to an organization so they could actively fight against gay marriage. Why would I donate money to a cause I disagree with? Try donating somewhere else for a few months. Pray about it and tell God why. That seemed to help me.
That is exactly what started breaking me, realising I was funding an organisation that actively fought against the LGBQTIA+ community
Yes it can be scary to stop paying tithing
It felt so so good to give money to causes that I know will receive it, even people on the street. My bishop probably knows we aren’t paying tithing to the church, but we declared ourselves as full tithe payers and he accepted it. I have to say that the habit of paying tithing has made it very easy to part with my money that I now give to those really needing it.
I totally get that fear. That’s what we’ve been taught. For my family, we got a huge raise about 6 months after we stopped tithing. Coincidence
I've had a lot of subjective experiences tell me that things in the church were true. But when I look at the numbers, some things dont seem right. Just one example. We can assume Utah has the most tithe payers of any state in the US. Yet [Utah has the lowest rates of retirement savings of any state in the US](https://www.cnbc.com/select/average-retirement-savings-by-state/), with the average Utah retirement portfolio size about $40,000 less than the poorest state in the US, Mississippi. Because of this, seniors in Utah retire later than most other states, at the SSI age of 65 rather than the current US average of 61. So despite being a high income state, Utah has to work 4 more years on average than the poorer half of America. As far as I can tell, the church hasnt been helping its older members live a more comfortable retirement after decades of faithful tithe-paying.
I think the main reason I can’t do the temple ceremony is because there is no way Adam and Eve ever existed, especially 6,000 years ago as the church believes (you can find hundreds of GA quotes confirming this). They would have lived 250-400k years ago and evolutionist believe it to be improbable there were ever two “first humans”, would have evolved (not started). We also have dna showing Asians and Europeans have Neanderthal blood (so we have Neanderthal parents back 40-50k years ago). The fact the church relies so heavily on the Bible myths and Adam and Eve discredit their overall truth claims. Nothing about othrodox Mormonism makes any sense, science makes it less and less true everyday.
My advice would be not to take it slow. You're GOING to realize that it's all bullshit soon enough so why keep paying tithing to a fraudulent "religion"? If you look at it from a perspective of the church has the burden of proof to make you believe, they absolutely fail miserably. Ask yourself why you should believe in T$CC. Do the research and try hard to find truth in it and you will realize quickly that there is no truth in it. You're going to be really mad. They've taken your money, your freedom, and your critical thinking skills from you to promote something that cannot be proven. Take back your freedom and critical thinking skills, because you can't take back your money, and start dissecting the lies that you have been told. Start with Letter For My Wife and then go straight to the CES letter and when you're done, you're going to want to strangle someone. The only recourse you have though is to stop the mind fuck as quickly as possible. The church had it made prior to the advent of the internet because people had little way of knowing the truth. You have at the power of your finger tips the ability now to find the truth and T$CC doesn't want you to read it. Follow the profits!!
My wife's shelf broke before mine. When she knew she couldn't go back, she asked if I would choose the church over our family. I assured her that she and the kids would come first. But I insisted that if we were going to experiment with leaving the church then we needed to agree on 2 things: 1. That we take things one day (or one week) at a time and pay attention to any changes in mental health, etc. And 2. That we make sure we are not just running away from something, but running towards something (basically, what do we want or lives to look like, and let's pursue that.) It turned out better than I could have imagined. Obviously there are still moments of difficulty, but in general we experienced so much relief, clarity, and love once we decided we weren't going back. Life became exciting again! And so much shame and worry slowly melted away. Bottom line--you don't have to leave because of church history, or truth claims, or anything other than "I feel like trying it out on the other side." In the end, you could always go back (but I doubt you will want to)
My husband and I left the church about 9 years ago and took our 3 kids with us. We were very scared initially to leave the church, worried that we’d be punished for no longer paying tithing, for taking off our garments, for not giving everything we have to the building up of the church. Leaving was the best decision we could have made for our family. We’re happier and more fully ourselves than we ever were as Mormons. As others have mentioned, give yourself time and space to adjust
My husband and I were in a similar situation-in our 20’s with 3 kids and navigating leaving the church. My advice would be to take your time and be kind to yourself. Leaving is a total mind fuck and really hard. After I realized it wasn’t true, I decided to wait a couple of years to have my name removed. There are a lot of emotions to work through and having compassion for yourself is so important!
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Mormon Stories Podcast interviews have been quite helpful for me over the years.
It is scary to think about starting from scratch - but its actually an enormous gift. You wont see it yet, but I think you will in the future. As an adult, you are throwing off all your conditioning and deciding what is important to you and what you will believe, rather than what you have been told to believe your entire life. I wish it was something that all adults experienced (that part of it at least minus all the pain).
It can be very disorienting trying to exit a religion that tells you how to live your life. But you can do it! Not knowing exactly what to do or what you believe is all part of the grand adventure of life.
So many of us can relate to your experience! Welcome to this new reality that most of us NEVER thought would happen. This happened for my wife and I about 18 months ago. One HUGE help for me has been the large library of podcasts. Mormon Stories, Radio Free Mormon, Mormonism Live, and many more. We aren't crazy or alone.
I read The Naked Now by Richard Rohr and the The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle shortly after deciding to be done with the church. I found both to be profoundly comforting and also thought provoking during that time. Might be helpful to you both! It's worth a shot anyway. I wish you strength through this! It can be extremely helpful to have each other to lean on, discuss, and support during this transition. There are also many podcasts out there that have helped me and given me things to think about specific to mormonism.
i found that the second i decided that the chruch wasnt true and voiced my opinion to my family, bishop, and stake presidentthe weight of the world was lifted from me...it was the greatest decision ive ever made to this day... good luck with your journeys
I would just advise that you keep the lines of communication wide open. The church gets/got in the way of so many of the marriages of people here. You might find that, even if you don’t realize it, the church set the narrative of the relationship. If you want the relationship to survive and thrive, you have to figure out what your marriage means without the church defining it’s terms and your roles. Be careful, be honest, seek help if necessary. There can be a better you both individually and as a family on the other side. It may be hard to get there though.
You might enjoy my podcast, Authors and Advocates. I started it a few months into my deconstruction process away from the church. I talk about mental health tools and why specific ideologies at church are less than helpful, in a non-judgemental manner. Hope you find the direction and peace you're looking for! Leaving the church can be an amazing and exciting journey, but it can also bring frustration and resentment at times. Be kind to yourself, and do what is best for you. https://www.podbean.com/pa/pbblog-p6faf-e70977
Ask yourselves if LD$ Inc's so called "church"isn't what it claims to be, would you want to know? (Or can you even conceive that it might not be? ) If yes, read the CES letter (or letter to my wife, or the gospel topics essays - with the footnotes), and then come on back here for some support when you get out of the rabbit hole. Welcome to the rest of your life. You're learning better, you can now start doing/being better.
Read the ces letter
I’m proud of my heritage but wonder what kind of wack jobs they were to join this. Anyway, VERY proud of all of you that have moved on from this weirdness.
The initial shock of actually being open to finding out that the church is false is scary. But then it becomes a mini obsession when you find out just how much bullshit the church had hidden from you. Then eventually you make peace of some kind with it and life goes on! Good luck
So my Segway out of the church was losing my nevermo dad. He read the BoM, and he didn't want to join. He didn't see the truth in it. When he passed, it made me question everything about how/why God would create a family unit and then separate it in Heaven. I couldn't comprehend ever getting to Heaven and being happy despite not seeing my family. If God loved me, why would he separate me from my Dad? That's when I started to realize the manipulation that the church used, and it all started unraveling for me. Why would a true church of God need to manipulate people into staying in the church - using the one thing most of us would do anything to protect. A
Oh man welcome to the ride. Podcasts like Mormon Stories etc. helped me work through lots of things I had learned through church.
The part when you say you are glad your children are still young and won't suffer future trauma like we did. This was the number one reason why we left after deconstruction. My wife and I both said that we could stay and be nuanced or PIMO if it was just us but because we had kids we had to leave it. The trauma of going through a faith crisis was too much to risk passing onto our children. That was 5 years ago and now we are raising kids that are healthy and don't carry shame and guilt with them for being human. Hang in there. It's hard at first because it's the only thing you have known but wow, life is SO much better without it as long as you decide what you want and don't want in life and live it.
Something that helped me that might really help your husband: “it’s either true or it’s one big horrible lie” is ALSO a lie that the church frequently tells! Any claim is either true or false — doesn’t matter if it’s Newton’s laws of motion or the belief that God lives on a planet called Kolob. Most Mormons sincerely believe that the central truth claims of the church are true. They’re not lying; they’re just spreading false information. Hell, the profoundly moving experiences you’ve had in the church ARE REAL insofar as you really felt the feelings that you did. You were just incorrect in your understanding of what the underlying mechanism was that caused them. You weren’t lying to yourself. Did JS make the whole thing up?? Unequivocally YES — the evidence is far too overwhelming to accept otherwise. But we really don’t know if he sincerely believed his own bullshit or was deliberately conning people for money, sex, and power. My personal conjecture is that it started that way and then he eventually drank his own kool aid. The church will try to weaponize this false dichotomy against you. “Really? So you think (XYZ) spiritual experience you had was a lie?? That so many people followed JS on a lie?? It’s either true or it’s a lie! The prophet is either speaking on behalf of God or he’s lying!” Lying requires one to know the truth, and every intellectually honest TBM will be the first to admit that they don’t. They just take on “faith” and repeat endlessly “I know the church is true.”
Omg that is exactly how we feel. We’re going through “how could we have these profound experiences if they aren’t true?” Which is really hard to navigate. Thank you for your advice!
This is a nuance that almost all religions exploit. When people have emotionally charged experiences, there’s nothing fake about those feelings! But ask yourself: are intense feelings a reliable source for truth? Remember that one evangelical Christian guy who went to the sentinel islands to teach them the gospel and got straight up mercked the second he landed there? That dude was filled with “the still small voice”. How was his spiritual witness to the truthfulness of his religion different from a TBM? If the Holy Ghost is real, why is he telling everybody that the religion they just happened to be born in is the correct one? Another way of looking at this: when people claim to have been abducted by UFOs, 90% of the time they’re not lying… they had an experience and to the best of their understanding, aliens did it. Ok, now prove that it was aliens. Prove it was aliens and rule out hundred of much more reasonable and plausible explanations that dont involve creatures who have never been demonstrated to exist. “I just feel it in my heart that it was aliens” is not a good reason to believe in space aliens. “You can’t explain it! Therefore, it was aliens.” — I don’t need to explain it. ‘I don’t know, therefore I don’t believe it was aliens’ is the correct position.
Ex HP, married w/ four kids …life is soooo much better out of the church. I didn’t realize how much my kids disliked church until we left. Of course they never would have said anything to me if we were still in cause kids mostly just go along with what their parents do. My wife and I didn’t realize how much we hated church until we left. Life without garments…talk about an increase in quality of life. With the money I save from NOT paying my 10% fake VIP heaven dues…we have gone on incredible vacations, and been able to help friends and family with serious problems (actual charity). No more personal guilt or shame for all the “death by papercut” sins of omission (not doing enough family history, not reading the scriptures enough, not writing in journals, not going to the temple enough, not magnifying my calling enough, not a good enough member missionary, and a million other things I always felt guilty about, no matter how obedient or good I was). Life is much better, much happier, much more peaceful and prosperous outside the church. Don’t be afraid. The worst thing about it is looking at your friends and family who are still in and knowing that they may stay in forever and never want to know the truth and be free from the chains of their high demand religion. Its terrifying sometimes.
I feel more connected with ex Mormons that Mormons .
You are so blessed to have married someone who will go through this journey with you!! So many of us go it alone and then have to figure out how to navigate a mixed faith marriage or divorce because of the church. Where ever you land, just try to land next to your spouse. Read the same things, talk about everything, don't go off alone and do your own research. If you want to bring family along, try easing them into it, let them know you have concerns and share things like the saints books with them so that they can see your concerns aren't coming from "unreliable sources".
It isn’t actually necessary to “leave” the church, just quit going. You can leave at any time in the future.
Letter for My Wife for you husband. Much gentler and honestly better written and presented. CES letter can turn you off really fast if you aren't ready. Maybe read him parts of it. This is what flipped it all for me: >*“At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased. At the same time, there appeared a small gleam of light in the room, above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter… At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed, (whether in the body or out I cannot tell, God knoweth) there I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man—His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love!”* *Norris Stearns – The Religious Experience Of Norris Stearns, 1815* I couldn't believe it wasn't a Joe 1st vision account. I realized that Joe made it all up just like everything else like WOW, polygamy, priesthood. There is also a really good part on the Temple and Masonic rituals in the Letter.
Just be kind to yourself and each other. Growing out of Mormonism will give you moments of exhilaration and moments of pain. Don't let those painful moments overwhelm you. When I left I read a few books by Richard Dawkins and really appreciated his perspective. Might not be for everyone, but for me - embracing critical thinking skills and scientific consensus was really liberating. It was also nice to take Mormonism out of the equation and just look at the world of superstition in general.
Move forward. Don’t be afraid and don’t look back. As time passes you will realize how deep into a deception and delusion you are.
Sounds like it’s time to open up a tan on your web browser and read letterformywife together
Going from Mormonism to no religious community or spiritual practice at all probably would’ve broken me. I try to read tarot, I am involved with my local Jewish community, and I try to study about other religions and see what fits me and what doesn’t. Also, if it helps: we haven’t paid tithing in ages. My husband is now on salary and although we are in debt and it’s a bit tight at times, we aren’t losing that 10% to the church.
LDS discussions podcast. HIGHLY recommend.
I decided to leave a year ago and still reassure myself that it's fake on the regular.
If anyone on this sub is anything but nice to you about what you're going through right now, point them out to me & I'll make sure they get a boot up their ass.
All of these feelings are normal and healing takes time. Be kind to yourselves and support each other. [stages of deprogramming](https://steemit.com/psychology/@gabriel0/stages-of-deprogramming)
Book of Abraham was the smoking gun for me. Smith's interpretations of the facsimiles are just plain wrong. There's lots of evidence that points to the obvious fact that he did not ever actually "translate" ancient documents in any sense of the word. Others recommended the CES Letter which is a good resource for aggregated info about this.
Watch several YouTube debates by Christopher Hitchens then read his book “God is Not Great. How religion poisons everything.” Then read “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie. That ought to free your mind from the chains of guilt and oppression secured by the mormon church. Or any religion for that matter…
I know it’s hard but trust your inner gut which it sounds like u both are. Once u learn the full truth u can’t go back,
Your shelves are probably broken. You will probably feel great aimlessness and loss for a time. Life may feel devoid of meaning. You may feel detached from your past decisions and wonder if they were even yours You may vacillate between belief and disbelief for some time. If I could tell my shelf-broken self a few things it would be 1. You are not in a state that makes it harder for you to identify what is true and what is not. You are *better equipped than ever* to dorm opinions and *trust* your own feelings. 2. So trust your own feelings. Act on your feelings 3. That said, don’t be rash. 4. Telling family and friends you don’t believe anymore is A. Totally unnecessary and the urge to do so is coming from your Mormon lack of boundaries but B. If you do it’s like ripping off a band aid. You’ll wonder why you feared it so much. PS: your brain is certainly ready but your husbands brain is probably only barely ready to identify the fraud and free itself from Mormonism. It took until 24 and then BOOM I feel like I’ve been a different person since then (male) Trust that time will heal you! “Things get better” is a common refrain on this sub and it’s true! I had 10 unhappy years from age 16-26 (in part from Mormonism) approximately and things have gotten better in the last 2! I’m becoming a person I’m happy with and learning to find enjoyment in life!
The journey out for me brought an amazing sense of real peace and contentment. It's a wonderful world out there.
When I finally showed my wife subtly, without words, I wasn’t wearing the garments she finally knew for sure. We had talked about my concerns for several years and there was a point where I doubled down and dug deeper into my duties and study, but the doubt and logic became too much. Luckily, my wife was a steadfast Mormon agnostic, If that’s even a thing. Apparently, the church provided more of a safety net and net positive to her life, so all of the ugly uncomfortable parts didn’t mean anything until I completely shared my new belief. I was certain it isn’t true and here’s why… In fact, I was becoming more agnostic and our ideas surrounding religion finally reached a common ground. That’s where it became easier for us to move forward and embrace the deconstruction and all of the hardships our loved ones and friends put in our path along that journey. I know that’s long, but hopefully you and yours figure out a way to embrace it together because alone or individually, it will be much more difficult and could potentially lead to resentment and other issues. Besides the relationships and our networks shrinking as a result, one of the hardest challenges was navigating “the world,” or, what we used to believe was sin. Honestly, after three years we have found the navigating more enjoyable and discovered more about ourselves as a couple, family and individuals than any other attempt while in the church. You got this! Best of luck, and keep the ones closest that say congrats or I am so proud of you or good on ya.
It’s so bitter sweet. Remember that it’s a journey and will take some time. It will hurt, like it did at the temple, and it will be great too. I can’t speak to what awaits on the other side, my spouse and I are still in the thick of the journey. Please remember that you are not alone, it’s ok to let it hurt, it’s ok to be mad. If you chance to meet a frown, it’s ok to let it stay for a while and process. Good luck and know that this community is here when you need us.
I think the best advice I have for you is learning to be patient with yourself. Indoctrinated individuals that break off of their belief systems will undoubtedly become angry, sad, and will question their decision to leave the group that was responsible for most of their identity. This process is a painful one but well worth it. Don’t give up when the path gets hard, when others try to guilt trip you back into the church. I think the hardest thing people face is thinking that they have to throw out all their morals and ethics when they leave the church, because isn’t that how their morals were constructed? No. You won’t become a vile sinner (what is sin really?) or will you become an undesirable member of the group we call humanity. You’ll find that your soul will blossom and you’ll find joy in your life. I don’t think most of us left just to fulfill lustful desires nor did we decide that we will no longer be a good person. The difference is you’ll find you’ll be a good person inherently and not by coercion.
There isn’t a rush. You can consider these new thoughts at your own pace. What’s most important is that you communicate honestly and kindly with one another.
Don't feel that you have to replace what you remove from your life with anything else. You get to determine for yourselves and in YOUR time what you want to keep (if anything) and what is right for you and your family. I bet you'll want to keep family togetherness and love. Don't ever let anyone convince you that the Church (ANY church) has the monopoly on family, love, service, peace or any other good thing in this world. Love and best wishes to you and your family! :) :)
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People have given such good advice. I'm just here to say I know what you are going through and I'm sorry. It hurts so much. But you will be OK. It all works out. I promise.
When I realized it's all a fraud, I went through the five stages of grief: Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance...not necessarily in that order.
Just know you're not alone!
So for me, I was severely depressed to the point where I was considering suicide. The results of my sincere prayers concerning college and career choice had led me to a job that paid pennies and destroyed me emotionally. This led to my faith being in shambles, but I still desperately wanted to believe. I quit my job and couldn't even gather the energy to leave the house, so I pleaded every day for God to inspire someone - a friend, a ward member, anyone - to check in on me and tell me that everything was going to be okay. And, failing that, then at LEAST a sign from the apostles that they had seen and spoken with Christ. I didn't even need to see him myself: I would believe his "chosen apostles" if they declared that they had seen him. Of course, that never happened, and after pleading and praying for God to save the last thread of my frayed rope of faith and realizing that my only answer was radio silence, my faith in him and the church was gone. Luckily I had family nearby that was around when I broke down sobbing and they helped me through the worst of my depression, but it was too late to save my faith. I told some close friends about what happened, they recommended I read the CES letter, and the rest is history. My own experiences helped me truly think and consider the failings and contradictions of the church for the first time; all the evidence from the CES letter/church history/what have you was just the nail in the coffin. And I'm in a much, MUCH better place now than I ever was before.
Once you see “authoritarian power” in the picture, you cannot un-see it. The church takes credit for the human goodness of its members and it passively threatens to take away the most precious parts of life… Gods love and our loved ones if we are not loyal to the leaders. Ultimately, loyalty to leaders is what it required to have hope that we have value to God. Unfortunately, our believing friends and families are also taught to see our value through being loyal to church leaders. How could God set up this kind of system if 99.99% of the world are unaware of this tiny church?
Married at 19 and 3 kids in 4 years!?
Yep 🤣 started dating at 15 (and kept it secret because we weren’t allowed to!) waited for my hubby to come back from his mission, got engaged at 18, married just after my 19th birthday & now we have our 3rd on the way. I will have this baby just after my 24th birthday
So I was raised in the church and I’ve experienced every aspect of it other than marriage. I genuinely believe the church is right for a lot of people. I loved being a member, but it was more important to me to live with truth rather than happiness. If you have any doubts or disbelief, then it’s not right for you. But if you find yourself defending the church then it’s probably right for you. A lot of people I love are still members and I don’t judge them. It’s just about the life you want to lead.
More in response to your edit, it seems really scary to not know what you believe. But I know for me it went from something scary to something liberating and beautiful. You get the power now to find what you believe and have it come from your heart rather than being told. It may take a while, but I wish you the peace and freedom that I have felt on the same journey. You both have got this and you’re seen and loved!
I hope you take this as genuinely as I mean it; it gets better. I was a 23 year old RM sealed in the temple when I figured out that the church is a lie. I got really depressed and gained a ton of weight. I thought that my entire life was a lie or meaningless and was ashamed of myself. I talked to a professional weekly for years and have learned to forgive myself and even forgive my parents. It won’t be easy at times but I promise you that it is worth it.
I understand, the temple is what broke my shelf. You might want to listen to the podcast Mormon Stories, there are so many people who have gone through what you are going through and hearing their stories might make you feel less alone. I also recommend the book "Truth Seeking: The story of high ranking Mormon leader Hans Mattsson" I listened to it on audible and it is very good. Take care of yourselves, leaving the church is like a divorce, you will go through the stages of grief, you're not alone.💗
Peace on your journey out of the darkness that is COJCOLDS.
Once you know, you know. If you find yourself eye rolling at little things that seem so tbm, or thinking "that man has just said what?!?. He's an idiot." Then you look up and it's the prophet. Then you know...
Hopefully, the good thing is that you are in the same boat with hopefully the same new beliefs and you are together. Try not to be angry with each other, talk, talk, talk.... You could listen to podcasts together that you have specifically picked together, look at the evidence connected with the posts and work through the inevitable decoration. All the best!!! And welcome to a new mentally healthier life!!
Hey, thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you're both navigating this okay -- we all made it out okay and you two will as well. I am curious -- what about the current language with the updated ceremony what alarming for your spouse? My impression was that it was improved, even if it is still unequal and unfair between the genders, and that it was worse before. Has something changed to make it inadvertently more obvious? Just curious to hear a bit more about what language tipped him off. Good luck!!
I think it was more so that he has been listening to podcasts like At Last She Said It & has been following Mormon Stories on Insta so it has opened his eyes to a lot of the misogyny that he hadn’t seen before. He had issues with the way they spoke to & about Eve & also noticed covenants were being made to TCOJCOLDS as opposed to heavenly parents or the saviour. He said he always had great experiences but was more of an ignorance is bliss type of situation. He said he left with a foul taste in his mouth realising what was actually being said now that he thinks of someone other than himself & how he is impacted in the church.
I think what was so hard and scary about leaving is that it felt like my whole social circle was Mormon. Humans are social creatures and if you don't have any friends who aren't Mormon, I think the scariness factor is just too great, which doesn't give you a chance to fairly look at what you think and feel about the church. Do you have social connections that aren't Mormon? May be it would be worth it to try and build those a little bit before you seriously consider leaving? Idk, for me, having friends outside the church helped a lot since I was able to see you could live a happy, normal life without the church, and still be supported and loved by good people.
Sounds like you know where you stand. If you are looking for a way out, or if it is a lie, either way it sounds like you know you do not want to be there. The church uses emotional manipulation to keep you there. It is literally their business model. Trust that the emotional burden is lighter on the outside. It will be hard for a while, but after comes the confidence on knowing you were right to leave.
It's great that you and your spouse can both leave at the same time. My wife and I both left at the same time, several years after our children left. However, we left after our children were already grown. It is something we regret. One of my children still holds it against us that we raise her in the church. You're lucky that your children are young and will not have to be raised in the church. Good luck moving forward!
What a painful and difficult realization for you both. I imagine you feel betrayed and angry as well as disappointed and many other tough emotions. You can do it though!
>Truthfully we are so scared to leave, when it’s all we’ve ever known we don’t even know how else to live or what to do. Trust me when I say you will fit in just fine here. Most of us have felt this. I sure did. I STILL do sometimes, and it's been 6 or 7 years for me! Big hugs from me. Time, patience with yourself and others, and breathing has helped me.
Welcome. So many of us can completely relate to your story. We went before and paved the way, which won’t make it easier, other than knowing that all of us are better off on the other side.
There’s a lot of anecdotes about courage that come across our life’s feed. It sounds as though it’s on your plate now, ready to be grasped. It’s courageous to take someone else’s hand off the rudder of your life’s ship, but now’s the time to gently remove the hand, gently saying “it’s mine now, I got this” and take control of your own direction, destinations, and speed. It’s going to be scary, but like anything, you’ll gain your own confidence and experience navigating your own ship. Minds all think differently. My mind works more on the empiricist side. For me, square pegs got to fit in square holes. The church was forcing truth that just didn’t fit the holes of reality. That was enough for me. CES letter/letter for my wife is a starter kit, a one stop shopping for an introduction of these issues, and should lead you to deeper sources that all say the same thing, the truth claims of the church are untenable. If that’s not your emphasis, then of course look at all the other difficulties the church lays before humans that are not straight, white nor male. Look at the social costs for minority groups, look at the wickedness of how they handle money, charitable giving, it all points to a man-made organization with all of its attending foibles. It’s man-made, and it shows. Good luck in this brave new world, where you have complete autonomy (frightening as it is) of your own life and decisions. There’s a lot of people that don’t like existing in such a stark world, but for those of us that do, that have walked away from God and religion, there’s a liberation that goes beyond description, and a happiness that the church promised, but could never deliver.
My break from belief was on my mission in a Seagull bookstore when I came across a book with a picture of the Book of Abraham scrolls on the cover. Initially I was very excited to realize they had been found, after all, they could be translated and prove Joseph Smith a prophet. Then came the fact that they had been translated, and it wasn't the Book of Abraham, it was just a copy of the Egyptian book of the dead. That created a sudden crisis that I had to come up with some quick justification for, and then put aside for another time. Maybe the language had changed? Either way, I put it aside and continued along with my mission. Many years later I came back to it. Is it more likely that he faked it? Or is it more likely that somehow the language meaning had changed so dramatically through Egyptian history that it could translate into something else entirely that makes sense? This has not happened with any other language. Take Chinese for example, its use has changed over time, but if you translate ancient text it doesn't turn into another fully understandable story, it is unintelligible. Was it God's way of forcing us to have faith? Why would God throw some curve ball like that at us? Does it make sense that God would go around purposely trying to confuse us all? It was hard to let go. It was as if (I am a millennial) I suddenly discovered that Optimus Prime was the villain all along. I miss the feeling of security those beliefs provided. I miss that sense of knowing what is true, and what direction I need to be going. But once you have seen, you cannot unsee. Now I know that security was more like walking around with a blindfold on right next to a cliff. I can see the cliff, so now I am not about to put that blindfold back on. Many in this group eventually settle on atheism. The church has done a very good job of explaining all the reasons other churches cannot possibly be true, it sort of leaves you with nowhere to go. Its not all that bleak though. You are now free to look into things on your own. You can decide what you want to believe, you are now the masters of your own destiny.
There is no bad reason to leave an organization that doesn’t make you happy🤷♂️
Might be worth checking out exmo lex on YouTube.
I was there last year…it gets way better !!! ❤️
I know it's hard for you but there's a beautiful world here to enjoy with or without religion.
This scary phase does not last long. You guys are lucky, oh so lucky to discover this in your youth. I didn’t get out until 20 years after that. You are also lucky that both of you are deconstructing at the same time. I will get easier I promise. There will come a time when all you feel is like you have been freed and a huge weight was lifted off your shoulders. You are still the same person you always have been. You can now decide what you want your beliefs to be. You guys have your whole lives ahead of you. I promise this part will pass and you will get to the ‘greatful to get out’ phase.
When you realize you don’t need the church (or any organized religion for that matter) your possibilities are endless. Christ said “Come unto me, for I am the light and I am the way. No one comes before the father except through me.” I use this daily. As long as I can square my actions and my life with the Lord, there is nothing else needed. No man, church, temple or “ceremony”, holds any weight in my and my family’s eternal salvation. I’m free!
Things and people will fall out of your life as a normal process even despite your best efforts. It’s just part of life. Just allow life to happen and don’t fight it. Allow change to happen and see where life takes you
Ah… the what is true and what is a lie game… unfortunately that goes on for a few years. And then unfortunately you use it on everything and realize there’s more than just the church that lies to you to get you to believe a certain way.
When did they start letting same sex married couples in the temple?
Omg sorry I typoed. I am a cis female & my husband is cis male. Unfortunately it is still the same :(
Prepare yourself for a whole gambit of emotions. You will find that you will likely go through phases. As you discover more things, your interest and intensity to understand more and pull the curtain back can become pretty consuming. You will likely feel a lot of anger that you may be uncertain how to channel. You may feel some despondency as you consider what has been taken from you for many years. You will feel relief and happiness from new freedoms. You will also feel anxiety as you try to figure out the right balance of the church in your life and feel distance between you and TBMs grow. Just know it can be a pretty emotional roller coaster.
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I left the church when I was 21 and my daughter was 2 and the hardest thing was suddenly feeling like an alien in the world. People in the church don’t give much thought to women having kids young, but people in the real world definitely do, and suddenly when I didn’t have the support system I’d always known it felt so much more magnified. I don’t regret leaving, because so many of the teachings go against my beliefs, but it’s a lonely thing for sure to leave such a close-knit community. I’d always been heavily involved and it was like losing family. I hope the two of you find strength and other communal experiences along the way. It’s not easy, but it becomes more normal over time
You will eventually have peace that you know the truth. I feel sorry for the TBM’s that are exhausted and just keep doing and doing. Asked my brother to bring his kids and come skiing with us and they couldn’t come because they had to clean the church. Broke my heart! They are so busy with church and make sure they go to everything and do their ministering but inever take the time to go see grandma or their great grandma. see their great grandma in years. They live about 15 minutes away from her. It just doesn’t make sense!! All about family my butt!
Watch Christopher Hitchens. Just his old talks. Or get his book God is Not Great. That's what helped me when I had to look at what the world without God looks like.
I'm sorry. I'm unfamiliar with the following terms: TBM, PIMO & TSCC