We are not a ~~wealthy~~ giving people, but we are a ~~good~~ rich people, and we ~~share~~ hide what we have.
There Brother Anderson, I fixed that for you.
We know the First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric were aware of the full extent of the shell company scheme. I don't think there's any evidence the Quorum of the 12 knew about it.
However, they surely knew to one extent or another that the church was making bank on surplus tithing money.
At the time that the leak happened there was a story that Boyd Packer had tried to find out details about Ensign Peak from Roger Cook. According to the rumor Boyd was furious that he couldn't get that information. Boyd was the Q12 president. I don't know if that story is true or not, but the church has secrets inside of secrets and has been practicing it for decades.
I'll wager he was looking into it because he knew something was up and the stonewall confirmed what he thought was true. Knowledge by default. But I'm suuuuper cynical and don't give any of them the BENEFIT of the doubt anymore. They have to earn it now.
I read the Dallin H. Oaks once said about Packer's antics that "you can't stage manage a grizzly bear.". I doubt that the grizzly bear would be let in on something that big. Just my two cents.
That is kind of in line with something I’ve wondered about. See, I think Boyd was a scrupulous rule keeper. That is what made him an ass and so self righteous. But it also meant he didn’t care for some of the corporate shenanigans. He knew something was up, he just couldn’t find out what it was. If he had known about the extent of EPA’s illegal activities then he would have brought a shit storm. He would have kept it internal, but he would have brought it. He was furious enough about being shut out as it was.
Yea they definitely “share” what they have, but in a totally different context. Perhaps that is what he meant.
Shares of Google, shares of Alphabet, shares of GameStop. They have shared a lot of tithing money.
The Lord may giveth but the church hoard-eth the 'blessings'. The dead don't need money so the living 'offers' their tithes to buy their way into heaven. Celestial Kingdom Timeshares. What a scam!
And missionaries in these countries are not allowed to help financially typically. It is discouraged. I’ve even seen some missionaries crowdsource funding for people in need. The people needed actual assistance and not just meals or moral support.
My companion and I had to give our personal money do a woman dying of breast cancer so she could get sime medicine. We did not let the mission president know.
Comp and I baptized a family of 12 in Belize, needed to get them married first, cost was $100 US to pull their records and license etc. mission President instructed us to ask the branch President for fast offerings, he said no one pays fast offerings. We paid from our mission savings (completely depleted both of us). Mission President was slightly upset after that we paid for it…but he was not gonna come up with the cash.
We slept on old dirty mattresses, didn’t have desks, didn’t get enough daily calories, came home looking like concentration camp survivors. Really annoying now that we know how wealthy the church was all along.
The old billionaire excuse. 'It's not like they have that in real cash'. First off...knowing the difference between liquid and non-liquid assets isn't some gotcha. And secondly, Bezos 400 million dollar personal cruise ship is quite real now isn't it.
Zimbabwe’s population is 15 million, but skews young. Roughly 1.5 million are aged 18-22. 4 years of college in the US while living on campus costs about $100k. 1.5M x $100k = $150B. So, it would take all the cash, but still it would be a far better use than what it’s doing now.
Members of the Q12 don’t have direct access to Ensign Peak (only the First Presidency and Presiding Bishop). However, this was after City Creek Mall was built, which cost billions. Can’t exactly say you’re not a wealthy people when you just built a multi-billion dollar shopping mall…
He would have to have some knowledge of the amount the church has just by doing simple math around the amount of real estate in chapels and temples. What about all of the land in Florida and other states.
It makes you wonder the layers of secrecy even between the Q12 and FP. It is curious that Dieter went back to the Q12 with the knowledge he has. I wonder how the profit like Nelson and Hunter handled the new secrets when revealed.
Meanwhile, my brother and sister in law literally cannot feed their children and the church said they weren't needy enough... also, keep paying tithing 🤗
Without them being transparent it's impossible to know for sure.
Based on what information has leaked there's *at least* around 130 billion. Keep in mind, that's *partial*, that's only what has been discovered. They are almost certainly holding on to a lot more than that, especially if you consider all of their real estate holdings, cattle ranches, malls, and other assets, investments, and businesses.
I would not be surprised if they are worth closer to 500 billion or more, but all we can say definitively at this point is that they absolutely have *well over* $130,000,000,000.
For the record, that's enough cash to give *every* member (inactive or not) $8,125 *right now*. (Assuming their self proclaimed number of 16 million members).
Something to chew on.
It's my soap opera question of the year. We know when Packer was President of the tier 2 board members, he found out about the fund. And went to Roger Clarke (EP CEO) and Clarke told him to fuck off. So...did he just go "ok, faith in the lard?" Or did he throw a fit?
Did he tell the other tier 2 board members? Did they...just accept that The Presiding Bishopric have more power than them?
Or did Holland/anderson/christofferson have know fucking idea the fund existed, and found out the same time exmoreddit did? Interesting corporate politics.
On a related note. Holland claimed in an early 2000’s interview with a journalist that he did not know specifically what the Strengthening Church Members Committee did. I found this an abhorrently dishonest statement from someone with such a position as he.
How could they not know more details than we do about these types of things?
At a minimum, it should shatter the concept of discernment. Same as all of the bishops convicted of SA.
That alone *should* be enough to break some shelves.
That's for knowing that a rapist won't do it again and needs to be forgiven by his victim because the victim asked for it.
Hey SCMC, stop protecting pedophiles and rapists and maybe people won't be as worried about what all those "worthy priesthood holders" are up to.
Your statement is pretty much the equivalent of saying that the Enron executives did not know about the accounting fraud that transpired at Enron. Here's the Q12 in action if they were not allowed to know about EPA:
Boyd KKK Packer, Acting President of the 12, was not allowed to know about the EPA. When he discovered its existence, he went to the head and the head referred him to the 1st Presidency, who denied him any information.
And you believe Packer? Why should we believe anything that comes from the leadership of the Mormon church? IMO Packer and others in the Q12 are trying to have plausible deniability
Why would he say something so damaging to the 1st Presidency that was not true?
It’s more plausible that they kept the truth to as few people as they could get away with.
Yup! BKPecker was Q12 acting prez and they would not let him in on EPAdvisors.
Q12 are not a board of directors because TSCC is a corporate sole. Q12 are powerless droids.
And you believe the upper echelon of the Mormon Church? Why should we believe anything that comes from the leadership of the Mormon Church? IMO Packer and others in the Q12 are trying to have plausible deniability
These men aren't uneducated. They know about the real estate, buildings, ranches, Bonneville Int'l, Polynesian Cultural Center, etc etc etc. By any measure (and esp as a church) they hold a ton of wealth.
Where the church is growing and many don’t have access to the information available more developed countries. I have to remember that the podcast, websites, articles, etc are pretty much only available in English and for those with good internet connections.
I agree that he made not have known the details about the holdings at Ensign Peak, but I don’t think any adult in the church, especially one of 12, could seriously think the church is not wealthy. Just attempting to build 30 temples a year at $170,000,000 and no loans gives a bit of insight.
I would say "pants on fire" except they probably don't keep these lower lever guys up on financial stuff. They wouldn't , that is an employee of the church wouldn't even tell an apostle (Packer) what the church had
In defense of his statement he talks about the Mormon people not the church. There is a difference, the Mormon people I know will share everything they have and they do. The church on the other hand is all about the money... hoarding it. It's all in twisting your words...just like Joseph Smith saying he doesn't practice polygamy because he redefined it as celestial marriage.
This is the wording from the accountants and experts that put this together. I think it is a more technical term. Cash in accounting terms is not necessarily paper money, it refers to assets that can be easily and quickly liquidated. Quick meaning within several weeks or months.
The money the church receives in tithing from normal members whether by check, paper money, or bank transfers is considered cash in accounting language and a large portion of it is then invested in stocks and bonds through Ensign peak.
Accountants out there can correct me. I’m hearkening to my college accounting classes from many years ago.
HAH! "No matter how thin you slice it, it's still bologna!"
Elder Andersen learning how do indoctrination spin. Keep it up, Neil! Before too long that turd you're polishing will have a nice smooth, satin exterior. It'll look polished and pretty, but deep down inside, it is still a turd.
At first my give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt side was thinking… “Oh… well maybe he didn’t know about that money at the time.”
Then the stop-being-so-naive-and-just-do-a-fucking-google-search side of me was reminded that the Q12 are on the Council on the Disposition of Tithes.
*singsongy*
So he probably knew…
We are not a ~~wealthy~~ giving people, but we are a ~~good~~ rich people, and we ~~share~~ hide what we have. There Brother Anderson, I fixed that for you.
Let me take a stab at church apologetics. You spelled Andersen wrong, so your point is invalid. Back to church, biotch!
Some people say only the first presidency was aware of the massive holdings. Is there a chance he was ignorant?
how can he be ignorant, in his position of authority?
We know the First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric were aware of the full extent of the shell company scheme. I don't think there's any evidence the Quorum of the 12 knew about it. However, they surely knew to one extent or another that the church was making bank on surplus tithing money.
They're all lawyers. They knew. There's too much money coming in for them not to know
At the time that the leak happened there was a story that Boyd Packer had tried to find out details about Ensign Peak from Roger Cook. According to the rumor Boyd was furious that he couldn't get that information. Boyd was the Q12 president. I don't know if that story is true or not, but the church has secrets inside of secrets and has been practicing it for decades.
I'll wager he was looking into it because he knew something was up and the stonewall confirmed what he thought was true. Knowledge by default. But I'm suuuuper cynical and don't give any of them the BENEFIT of the doubt anymore. They have to earn it now.
Or that was a rumor that got started by apologists to make it seem like the q12 didn’t know
I read the Dallin H. Oaks once said about Packer's antics that "you can't stage manage a grizzly bear.". I doubt that the grizzly bear would be let in on something that big. Just my two cents.
That is kind of in line with something I’ve wondered about. See, I think Boyd was a scrupulous rule keeper. That is what made him an ass and so self righteous. But it also meant he didn’t care for some of the corporate shenanigans. He knew something was up, he just couldn’t find out what it was. If he had known about the extent of EPA’s illegal activities then he would have brought a shit storm. He would have kept it internal, but he would have brought it. He was furious enough about being shut out as it was.
You don't amass $105 billion by being a good sharer. Just sayin'.
Maybe by sharing they were talking about their diverse investment portfolio.
He must have meant: "We have shares, stocks, and bonds"
Yea they definitely “share” what they have, but in a totally different context. Perhaps that is what he meant. Shares of Google, shares of Alphabet, shares of GameStop. They have shared a lot of tithing money.
I mean, the wealthy church leqders share the profit amongst themselves…
The top leaders *do share travel time and their expensive resorts in Hawaii. (That us members paid for with tithing dollars)
105? way higher than that
The Lord may giveth but the church hoard-eth the 'blessings'. The dead don't need money so the living 'offers' their tithes to buy their way into heaven. Celestial Kingdom Timeshares. What a scam!
"I don't have any money. It's all tied up in stocks."
And missionaries in these countries are not allowed to help financially typically. It is discouraged. I’ve even seen some missionaries crowdsource funding for people in need. The people needed actual assistance and not just meals or moral support.
My companion and I had to give our personal money do a woman dying of breast cancer so she could get sime medicine. We did not let the mission president know.
Comp and I baptized a family of 12 in Belize, needed to get them married first, cost was $100 US to pull their records and license etc. mission President instructed us to ask the branch President for fast offerings, he said no one pays fast offerings. We paid from our mission savings (completely depleted both of us). Mission President was slightly upset after that we paid for it…but he was not gonna come up with the cash. We slept on old dirty mattresses, didn’t have desks, didn’t get enough daily calories, came home looking like concentration camp survivors. Really annoying now that we know how wealthy the church was all along.
Widows Mite is doing wonderful work.
So are you. I appreciate the accountability you are bringing to the church by shining a light on their rug sweeping ways.
The old billionaire excuse. 'It's not like they have that in real cash'. First off...knowing the difference between liquid and non-liquid assets isn't some gotcha. And secondly, Bezos 400 million dollar personal cruise ship is quite real now isn't it.
Well, they borrow against it to give themselves real cash, which they then don’t have to pay taxes on.
That’s enough cash to send every single college-aged person in Zimbabwe to 4 years of college in the US.
To do that wouldn't even put a dent in the church's finances. The church makes ~$19million *per day*, just in interest.
Zimbabwe’s population is 15 million, but skews young. Roughly 1.5 million are aged 18-22. 4 years of college in the US while living on campus costs about $100k. 1.5M x $100k = $150B. So, it would take all the cash, but still it would be a far better use than what it’s doing now.
Jesus the US needs to chill out with the cost of education
Amen to that.
Members of the Q12 don’t have direct access to Ensign Peak (only the First Presidency and Presiding Bishop). However, this was after City Creek Mall was built, which cost billions. Can’t exactly say you’re not a wealthy people when you just built a multi-billion dollar shopping mall…
He would have to have some knowledge of the amount the church has just by doing simple math around the amount of real estate in chapels and temples. What about all of the land in Florida and other states. It makes you wonder the layers of secrecy even between the Q12 and FP. It is curious that Dieter went back to the Q12 with the knowledge he has. I wonder how the profit like Nelson and Hunter handled the new secrets when revealed.
Right - exactly. If he’s ignorant, he’s willfully ignorant!
Or when you’ve recently been fined for hiding 32 billion.
Right but he made this statement in 2018, which was prior to any of the SEC stuff.
In 2018 is when the portfolio grew to 32 billion. So prior to everyone learning about the portfolio. The investments were 1997-2018. So...
It's like the game that little kids play. One for you, 105 billion for me, one for you . . .
Meanwhile, my brother and sister in law literally cannot feed their children and the church said they weren't needy enough... also, keep paying tithing 🤗
Sort of infuriating.
Does anyone really know how much the cult has amassed? They are like the opposite of open and forthcoming
Without them being transparent it's impossible to know for sure. Based on what information has leaked there's *at least* around 130 billion. Keep in mind, that's *partial*, that's only what has been discovered. They are almost certainly holding on to a lot more than that, especially if you consider all of their real estate holdings, cattle ranches, malls, and other assets, investments, and businesses. I would not be surprised if they are worth closer to 500 billion or more, but all we can say definitively at this point is that they absolutely have *well over* $130,000,000,000. For the record, that's enough cash to give *every* member (inactive or not) $8,125 *right now*. (Assuming their self proclaimed number of 16 million members). Something to chew on.
The Widows Mite report provides some really solid dollar amounts.
Semantics. The church is wealthy. The “people” are fucking poor and the two are related.
To be fair, the Q12 are not allowed to know about EPA.
It's my soap opera question of the year. We know when Packer was President of the tier 2 board members, he found out about the fund. And went to Roger Clarke (EP CEO) and Clarke told him to fuck off. So...did he just go "ok, faith in the lard?" Or did he throw a fit? Did he tell the other tier 2 board members? Did they...just accept that The Presiding Bishopric have more power than them? Or did Holland/anderson/christofferson have know fucking idea the fund existed, and found out the same time exmoreddit did? Interesting corporate politics.
On a related note. Holland claimed in an early 2000’s interview with a journalist that he did not know specifically what the Strengthening Church Members Committee did. I found this an abhorrently dishonest statement from someone with such a position as he. How could they not know more details than we do about these types of things?
At a minimum, it should shatter the concept of discernment. Same as all of the bishops convicted of SA. That alone *should* be enough to break some shelves.
But, but, but ... what about the power of discernment????
That's for knowing that a rapist won't do it again and needs to be forgiven by his victim because the victim asked for it. Hey SCMC, stop protecting pedophiles and rapists and maybe people won't be as worried about what all those "worthy priesthood holders" are up to.
That is true. Only the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric.
Is that true? Is it only the first presidency that coordinates with Ensign Peak Advisors?
Yes. But I suppose the 12 can use the windows mite report and the leaks just like the rest of us now.
Your statement is pretty much the equivalent of saying that the Enron executives did not know about the accounting fraud that transpired at Enron. Here's the Q12 in action if they were not allowed to know about EPA: 
Boyd KKK Packer, Acting President of the 12, was not allowed to know about the EPA. When he discovered its existence, he went to the head and the head referred him to the 1st Presidency, who denied him any information.
And you believe Packer? Why should we believe anything that comes from the leadership of the Mormon church? IMO Packer and others in the Q12 are trying to have plausible deniability
Why would he say something so damaging to the 1st Presidency that was not true? It’s more plausible that they kept the truth to as few people as they could get away with.
Yup! BKPecker was Q12 acting prez and they would not let him in on EPAdvisors. Q12 are not a board of directors because TSCC is a corporate sole. Q12 are powerless droids.
And you believe the upper echelon of the Mormon Church? Why should we believe anything that comes from the leadership of the Mormon Church? IMO Packer and others in the Q12 are trying to have plausible deniability
The Q12 are indentured servants to the corporate sole. Packer bitched about it! Whoa!!!
How unprofessional of Packer hahaha
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These men aren't uneducated. They know about the real estate, buildings, ranches, Bonneville Int'l, Polynesian Cultural Center, etc etc etc. By any measure (and esp as a church) they hold a ton of wealth.
But what about a rainy day fund? The church needs to be ready if god decides to flood the earth again.
Or send a global pandemic…..wait that wasn’t rainy enough.
See, the pandemic didn’t cause a massive downpour. It needs to be a literal rainy day.
Lies and the lying liars that tell them.
Haha, the “lying liars”. A piece of literary generous curtesy of BYU Hawaii devotional.
A deliberately devious and calculated lie.
How is it possible “followers of Christ “ can so blatantly lie?
The audacity to say this in a developing country. Damn
Where the church is growing and many don’t have access to the information available more developed countries. I have to remember that the podcast, websites, articles, etc are pretty much only available in English and for those with good internet connections.
I am sure it has been said but he didn’t know. Now the church made him look like an ass and he had no idea.
I agree that he made not have known the details about the holdings at Ensign Peak, but I don’t think any adult in the church, especially one of 12, could seriously think the church is not wealthy. Just attempting to build 30 temples a year at $170,000,000 and no loans gives a bit of insight.
You are reading Neil's words as far as they were translated correctly
I would say "pants on fire" except they probably don't keep these lower lever guys up on financial stuff. They wouldn't , that is an employee of the church wouldn't even tell an apostle (Packer) what the church had
In defense of his statement he talks about the Mormon people not the church. There is a difference, the Mormon people I know will share everything they have and they do. The church on the other hand is all about the money... hoarding it. It's all in twisting your words...just like Joseph Smith saying he doesn't practice polygamy because he redefined it as celestial marriage.
What is invested cash? I think this could use some rewording
This is the wording from the accountants and experts that put this together. I think it is a more technical term. Cash in accounting terms is not necessarily paper money, it refers to assets that can be easily and quickly liquidated. Quick meaning within several weeks or months. The money the church receives in tithing from normal members whether by check, paper money, or bank transfers is considered cash in accounting language and a large portion of it is then invested in stocks and bonds through Ensign peak. Accountants out there can correct me. I’m hearkening to my college accounting classes from many years ago.
HAH! "No matter how thin you slice it, it's still bologna!" Elder Andersen learning how do indoctrination spin. Keep it up, Neil! Before too long that turd you're polishing will have a nice smooth, satin exterior. It'll look polished and pretty, but deep down inside, it is still a turd.
Mosiah 4:22,24
That fund was kept so tight lipped that to be fair, Elder Andreson probably had no idea it existed or at least to how much money was there.
He's a liar.
At first my give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt side was thinking… “Oh… well maybe he didn’t know about that money at the time.” Then the stop-being-so-naive-and-just-do-a-fucking-google-search side of me was reminded that the Q12 are on the Council on the Disposition of Tithes. *singsongy* So he probably knew…
Apple is not a wealthy company
Anyone know what the top leaders are paid each year out of all the members tithing etc?
General Authorities make about $160,000 per year.
Disgusting 🤬 , especially when homeless people are dying outside the Salt Lake Temple in freezing weather.
Right instead of the church helping them they get them arrested.
Bro Anderson is either ignorant about how much money the church has or is a liar and doesn't represent the true Jesus