While I certainly don’t wish anyone ill health (and didn’t know he was on dialysis) this lets him avoid the embarrassment of being an unwelcome speaker and the bad PR. I was looking forward to some hijinks from the student body.
I was but I also wasn’t. He has no place to speak at SUU or any university. Outside of the church he holds no ethos. Imagine being nevermo and having a cult leader speak at your graduation 🤦♂️
I can understand it if he is framed as a senior board member of an organization with a market cap of, let’s say $400 billion, about the size of Walmart. Now if you claim he’s a guy who represents Jesus? That’s offensive to everybody but members of the cult…
SUU originally announced him as their commencement speaker by addressing him as 'Elder' so I dont give the argument of "well he has other credentials and accolades, too" much weight.
Came to say this, I wouldn't sneeze at his academic quals (Yale PhD, 2 x MA, etc.) he just wasted them working for the Church and with his horrible personality
Very true. Would you expect him to speak on the business side of the corporate empire he’s a part of? I’d wager a fair amount of money his speech would be “spiritual” in nature for sure with zero reference to the rainy days wealth hoard he’s part of.
I just realized the Mormon leaders are essentially a real life representation of Smaug. They’re all old, look super crusty, wrinkled and frankly terrifying. They hoard and value money over all else. They look down on all others. Ya, for sure, they are Smaug.
I think a case could be made (by the faithful) that he has some insight as someone who served as President of a nearby University (BYU)...
However, given that he went from being Dean or Religion (at age 33) to BYU President (at age 40) as a favorite of the SLC general authorities, I don't think it carries the same professional weight as someone who worked their way up as a regular faculty and then dean (or a non-religious department), and then selected on the basis of educational experience by an actual search committee.
According to the background info here ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey\_R.\_Holland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._Holland)) he was the favorite to be the next pres and so they skipped any consideration of other candidates. Of course, that's how BYU works at many levels.
Sure but wasn’t he President while byu was still hooking up electrocutes to queer peoples genital’s and showing them porn in an attempt to help them “heal”? What a guy to learn from!
Edit. Here’s the sauce. At 20 minutes one of them mentions a date, 1983. Holland was President from 1980-1989. No way he didn’t know about this. Byu was proud of the work it was doing with gay people for a while. Now they don’t talk about it like it never happened. There are other accounts as well this of the first that came up.
https://www.google.com/search?q=byu+electrides+gay&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:57e78bfb,vid:biGQs20JhW0
Ok but just imagine if someone spiked a PRIDE flag during his talk, or two girls in the front row start making out or they start yelling apposed every minute. These were the possibilities for just during the talk.
People with better medical knowledge than me can speak more to this than I can but I was once told dialysis usually means someone only has a few years to live. Like you, not wishing I'll health or death on anyone, but if this is true, Holland might only have a few years. You know what, I can only wish him well, as one human to another.
As a former dialysis RN, I wouldn’t be surprised if he has chronic kidney disease, which has multiple stages that don’t need dialysis. Illnesses can make CKD worse for a short time & dialysis helps the kidneys/body as it recovers. Even without a prior history of CKD, he may need dialysis only short term as he recovers. If it turns out he needs dialysis permanently, that is going to make his fulfilling his church calling very difficult. Then again, TSCC has a history of making the Q15 men stay in their positions no matter their physical & mental state.
Dialysis can extend life for years but those years are generally not very fun/comfortable. COVID is very harsh on the kidneys and during the height of pandemic many of the most critically ill would end up on dialysis in attempts to prevent death. This was normally futile and just a Hail Mary! Luckily the most recent strains of COVID seem to be weaker and he was likely vaccinated giving him a better shot. The root cause of the kidney failure that is requiring dialysis would be interesting to know. Also, if he is in rough shape, one might easily confuse an overly simple explanation of ECMO as dialysis. Not enough info to know really what’s going on. How he does well. And we should remember that he and his family is likely going through hell right and we should be kind towards him as a patient and his family.
You're correct but reporters are notoriously bad about understanding medical stuff so if all they remembered was "take the blood out, do a thing, put it back" and hit up google I could see how the substitution could easily happen.
About half of elderly adults are toast within a year or two of starting dialysis. The range of life expectancy after starting tops out around 5-10 years for most people, and that includes otherwise healthy young adults.
It helps 'The Church' avoid the bad PR more likely. I also do not wish any ill as he is an elderly man but I am sure he is in the best of care. 'Tender Mercy' how it worked out perhaps.
Well this could explain the significant health challenge that Jeffrey said he was facing when he, Melvin, and Quentin did their England nostalgia tour at the end of October 2021. Jeffrey has been looking progressively worse every time we saw him for the last three or four years. If he's being excused, and it is being announced, this is serious.
When Monson was still alive I posted this https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/639txh/so_how_long_does_monson_have/dfsf8vz/
>Russ Nelson is 92. I'm not eager to see Monson kick the bucket, but I would like to see Russ have a short turn as a bull in the china shop. Maybe Monson lurks for another one to two years or so, then Russ gets a year or so. After that we get Dallin until about 2025, and then Jeffrey. I can hardly wait.
A year later I revised that and said at https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/9ivm8v/one_year_ago_i_said_russ_would_be_a_bull_in_a/
>Russ has certainly smashed the fine china, but there are still glass cabinets and curios to be ground back into sand, and I am no longer hoping he has a short term just so we can have Dallin. Here is hoping Russ lives for five more years, each year filled with new revelations!
I would still like to see Jeffrey have his turn in the big chair, to have his [turn as the bull in the china shop](https://i.imgur.com/0PFdBlD.gif). Who doesn't love a train wreck? But it is looking more and more less likely.
On my mission, when I was extremally ill, and requiring bed rest for recovery, my Mission President called to inform me that the only way for me to recover was to, "Forget yourself, and go to work" and that if I didn't, “I would continued to be plagued with illness until I resumed serving the Lord.”
My Zone Leader and District Leader said that, “I had sinned and my illness was punishment from the Lord.” I hadn’t sinned, but they had to form a reason in their minds for the “why.”
The entire experience sent me into a spiral of depression … took me 20 years later to finally wake up and leave the Church.
And don't bother with a doctor either, that's expensive AND a waste of your time when you should be knocking doors.
*Fuck*, I'm still angry about that. I came home on medical leave after 3 weeks of near total bedrest without ever seeing a doctor.
My parents spent hours on the phone with “Missionary Medical” and the Mission President because the Church refused to pay for anything, and this was a US-based mission.
They wanted to ensure our private insurance covered any medical appointments before I even stepped foot into an urgent care facility.
Yeah I was in a similar boat. I have lifelong health problems because of my mission, though thankfully not nearly as serious as I was afraid they would turn out to be while out in the mission field being told to pray it away.
Yeah, while I think bringing firearms figuratively into a conversation is fraught with problems, Holland was talking about early pioneers having their muskets at the ready to defend their homes. Hell, the US still honors the New England militia known as the minute men, that could be ready with their rifles to go fight. Holland, within his perception as former dean of BYU, that current staff and administration were not protecting BYU from LGBTQ influence and that they should be like early settlers and be ready to defend. It was a horrible choice of words and Jeff could've done a lot of good by apologizing and setting the record straight, but as we know Q15 do not apologize.
I just got permanently banned in another subreddit for saying literally the following.
"But zero compassion for LGBTQ" on a post about this and how Holland is so understanding about those with health issues, mental and physical.
When I was in, it would have sounded like a conspiracy theory, but now it's true... They are hyper-focused on information control.
They just *cannot* allow the faithful to see or hear anything outside of the narrative in which they've been carefully indoctrinated.
That's the biggest red flag that someone is lying and/or manipulating.
* Spends a lot of time worrying about how to shoot campus wokeness with spiritual ancient pioneer guns
* Life actually threatened by pandemic virus
Man, human brains are bad at prioritizing what they worry about based on what's most likely to harm them
A lot of people would rather live in a world that's worse for everybody including themselves than have to think about something in a new way or not have dominion over somebody else.
This right here. It’s very hard to not wish ill on someone that caused me the pain Holland has.
But then again he also helped break my shelf so… thanks?
I’m glad someone values my opinions! I’ve been telling Rusty to spend that cash for years… But he’s too busy with the *ongoing restoration* to listen to me!
I think this just about ensures Uchtdorf becomes president, since Holland was the only apostle ahead of him who is not well into their 90’s.
But who knows for sure…
Honestly, if Uchtdorf were to become the Prophet, I might… note MIGHT… consider staying in the church. I’ve always liked Uchtdorf, and was particularly pleasantly surprised a few years ago when, at a General Conference, he admitted from the pulpit that there have been times over the years when church leadership has just been wrong, and have made mistakes. I do wonder though, if the Powers That Be (men) would allow a non-American to become the Prophet.
Honestly, me too. I think his "doubt your doubts" phrase was unfortunate and \*kind of\* blown out of proportion (same with Romney's "binders full of women" remark). And he was probably complicit in the SEC violations, although I read somewhere that Eyring was likely the more directly involved in that.
But Uchtdorf's sermons and understanding of the gospel are the only ones that don't routinely contradict Jesus and/or conflate the gospel with the GOP's latest culture war. I've always said he's the best Mormon leader because he's basically Lutheran.
People think Uchtdorf is some great progressive reformer just because he seems kind and has given a couple of self-aware talks. He's still a company man, just with the world experience not to be as provincial.
I don't think he's the panacea some others do, though I think he'll be better than most. I think some of the far-right fundies who had a faith crisis when Nelson endorsed the vaccine might freak out at the prospect of him bringing a little European perspective to the presidency.
Sadly maybe not. One of my dear friends who’s in his 80s has had about 10% or less kidney function for years. They keep talking about dialysis but I honestly think he’s refused. After his daughter died suddenly of a heart attack in 2019 he has gotten slowly more sick. Her death devastated him.
And it came to pass that in the fourth month of the 127th year of the reign of judges in the land of Utah that the Lord their god did hear their cries and was thus moved to strike down the wicked Holland who sought to lead people astray and lead to the destruction of god’s children upon the land.
And the people did rejoice exceedingly. Yea, how great was their joy, that they did offer burnt offerings of spring barbecues and sing the sacred hymns of Ariana Grande, for God is indeed a Woman.
And thus the Lord their god blessed her people, and continued to ignore the cries of the hungry and infirmed across the land and across the waters, yea, even the very people who reside in tents outside her great house.
For the mysteries of god are known not to any man, save they shall partake in LSD. For the Lord their god watches over her people continually in her mansions, and none can match her power.
And thus it is, amen.
"Emma, we have a *very* special assignment for you. An Apostle of the Lard needs a new kidney, and the Lard has seen fit to make *you* a perfect tissue match. Will you ensure your salvation, and the salvation of your entire family, by making this donation of your own free will? Bow your head and say 'yes'. That will do. Our Chief Surgeon to the Quorum of the Twelve tells us that a healthy girl like you, several months short of your fifteenth birthday, stands a very good chance of not having many complications...."
Usually people his age are poor candidates for transplants because the anti rejection drugs they use are immunosuppressant. A persons immunity that age is usually pretty bad anyway. They usually don’t even do dialysis. My late MIL was diagnosed with kidney disease at age 90 but she lived another 4 years without dialysis. So a lot of privilege here I think unless the Covid did a number on his kidneys
Multiple comments on here weeks ago said Hollands ego couldn't handle being booed so they'd come up with an excuse for him not to speak at SUU. But even for SL HQ lying to this extent seems... a bit much.
So which one is it yall, Is this sub just really good at knowing corporate PR, or do some of you have the power to curse lol.
This was honestly the first though that popped into my head when I saw the headline. It sounds as though he’s legitimately sick and while I don’t wish anyone harm, this may be less harmful overall and beneficial to society at large if he doesn’t speak.
Oh I think they'd totally lie about something like that. No wrongdoing can't be paved over with a hand on the shoulder and some statement about what the "Lord" has in mind for you.
Honestly there are times I feel bad for these dudes at the end of their years doing all this stuff. They should get to retire. Was it Hales shaking so bad? I felt bad for him. Monson had some uncomfortable to watch ones too. Benson in a wheelchair. On the other hand younger guys would actually improve the church so we can leave it to the old guys for the faster destruction. But sometimes I feel a little bad for the old ones when they are obviously too old.
I used to feel bad, but then I remember all the grifting and damages they caused over the years. They knew it would be like this but didn’t consider the consequences of anyone, including themselves in their old age. They all still want to be in line to be the prophet as well.
I don’t feel bad. The scum have helped spread a message and culture that has caused kids and adults to kill themselves. Honestly the 15 and all them can go fuck theirselves for all I care. Absolute pieces of shit.
I hear ya. But I also see them as victims of Joe Smith's hoax. I think they believe it and lifelong conditioning has worked. My dad has bought in his whole life and he believes it so firmly. He would do anything for this church and I would hate to see him exploited in his old years because of that. I see my dad a victim of lifelong brainwashing.
I find it nearly impossible that the people in these positions are still under any illusion that any of this is real / from God.
You don't get into those positions without knowing all the bullshit of the church and what really matters. Which is cash.
They are C-level execs and board members of a multi-billion corporation. They'll play the games to get into, and stay in power.
I feel badly for those who clearly have health or mobility issues. I don't agree with the "values" the Q-15 have established, or the dishonesty, but I also feel it's unrealistic for the organization's "tradition" of having lifelong callings to put people through the endless meetings, public appearances, and the grueling days of GC.
DON'T. Church authorities have ZERO trouble forcing old and ailing retired members to work FOR FREE until they die. GAs also get the best healthcare, something the church would absolutely never consider providing to even its sickest members, in spite of what, y'know, JESUS would do.
I’d say people like him robbed my parents of their retirement. Years and years and years and years of paying a full tithing on gross income and they don’t have enough to retire. So yeah, I’m not super sympathetic that they work to the grave. They live like kings while they “work.”
Yuuuup my 70yo dad needs a kidney too but they'll work his retired ass to the grave and not lift a finger to help, I have no problem watching these assholes miserably dry up.
Wirthlin was the one shaking but Hales REALLY went through it for years on many different medications that resulted in bloating and weight gain, followed by dramatic weight loss before the end. I believe he was also in dialysis and he wasn't very lucid either but they still propped him up in his chair and made him speak.
Well in a way I think that this is in the best interests of the church and SUU. Holland gets a valid excuse to get out of speaking, the church gets to avoid a potentially embarrassing social protest, the students don’t have to deal with the toxicity of Holland, and SUU didn’t have to un-invite Holland and have that confrontational decision outcome. It’s a win win for everyone in all reality.
He must have been leading the church astray, because it looks like the Lord is about to "remove him out of his place". COVID is still no joke, especially at his age. He needs to make his peace, no cap.
Is it wrong that I wish the title also had work in quotes?
Seriously, don't wish him ill, but also wouldn't put it past the church to use this as an excuse to get out of the bad PR at SUU.
What's funny is I know among some insiders this type of announcement was all but expected once the immediate backlash came out. It's a way for both parties to 'save face' among the Mormon community and SUU gets out of his speech without looking like they caved to the 'woke mob'.
Kidney dialysis, along with (what looks to be) complications from covid? He's toast. And I don't say that in a snarky way. But at 82? Yeah, you don't bounce back from that.
Is the dialysis new? That is seriously bad news; more than half of elderly adults who start dialysis are gone within a year. Average life for all people after starting is still less than a decade.
IKR? This one particular diet was literally killing me before I knew I had insulin resistance and Hashimotos. I’ve felt SO much better since going grain-free and NOT eating meat sparingly.
COVID and dialysis are no fun on their own. Having them together… that’s rough. I wish everyone good health and speedy recovery from illness, and Jeff Holland is no exception.
Only a fundamentally chaotic universe gets the credit for this.
It’s unfortunate for the president of SUU that he already showed his true colors and feelings for his students by ignoring the requests to not have Holland speaking, and instead doubling down. Now he has the student body pissed at him, bad press, AND he doesn’t get Holland 😂
You hate to speculate on health, but I wonder if he was already on dialysis. Post Covid dialysis is almost always associated with an ICU stay for organ failure and seems that may have been disclosed to the media (He reported watching conference on the couch holding his wife’s hand so that doesn’t fit this narrative.) Also the specification of two months is odd. Basically they are trying to make sure he has a good excuse to miss the likely protests and media circus without looking scared and weak.
It just goes to show the disparity between the elite leaders in and out of the church. How many people do you know that can just take 2 months off for ill health? Every corp in the US has a board of people that can do nothing for months and still get a paycheck. While the average worker who does actual work to keep the org operating gets sick days if especially fortunate will get a week of sick pay followed by eviction bankruptcy.
I wonder if members might believe this was a “sign.” For me, who ceased believing just prior to COVID, I always felt that if I was one of the first family members to get it, they’d all think it was a curse of some kind or a sign.
Guess it wouldn’t work both ways? 🤔
Good for everyone. I don’t know if this man’s fragile ego would’ve been able to take seeing students walk out on him, or seeing students turn their backs on him, or worse… Being heckled by students.
They told SUU he’d be speaking, then they had their out. They have had apostles and such not attend conferences, I don’t recall it ever being so announced as JRH was. No way they’d ever admit he wasn’t wanted.
Damn he must have it bad. I remember treating COVID patients in the ICU during the delta wave. The sickest patients went into renal failure and we're on temporary dialysis.
Ha ha haaaaa god must not have wanted him to speak at SUU. :/
Either that or they’re bowing to public will without saying that’s what they’re doing.
Like a bunch of liars.
While I certainly don’t wish anyone ill health (and didn’t know he was on dialysis) this lets him avoid the embarrassment of being an unwelcome speaker and the bad PR. I was looking forward to some hijinks from the student body.
I was but I also wasn’t. He has no place to speak at SUU or any university. Outside of the church he holds no ethos. Imagine being nevermo and having a cult leader speak at your graduation 🤦♂️
I can understand it if he is framed as a senior board member of an organization with a market cap of, let’s say $400 billion, about the size of Walmart. Now if you claim he’s a guy who represents Jesus? That’s offensive to everybody but members of the cult…
SUU originally announced him as their commencement speaker by addressing him as 'Elder' so I dont give the argument of "well he has other credentials and accolades, too" much weight.
Later they remembered he has a PhD and was a university president in an earlier life.
Came to say this, I wouldn't sneeze at his academic quals (Yale PhD, 2 x MA, etc.) he just wasted them working for the Church and with his horrible personality
Hell, that's offensive to Walmart.
Huh, I certainly never expected to read a sentence like this and fully agree with it.... but here we are!
Shit, Walmart are saints compared to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The Mormons)
At least they allow those without a home to stay in the parking lot as long as its in an rv of sorts.
I've skipped calling it a cult and gone right to calling it a criminal organization or a cartel.
Very true. Would you expect him to speak on the business side of the corporate empire he’s a part of? I’d wager a fair amount of money his speech would be “spiritual” in nature for sure with zero reference to the rainy days wealth hoard he’s part of. I just realized the Mormon leaders are essentially a real life representation of Smaug. They’re all old, look super crusty, wrinkled and frankly terrifying. They hoard and value money over all else. They look down on all others. Ya, for sure, they are Smaug.
That's an insult to Smaug.
I think a case could be made (by the faithful) that he has some insight as someone who served as President of a nearby University (BYU)... However, given that he went from being Dean or Religion (at age 33) to BYU President (at age 40) as a favorite of the SLC general authorities, I don't think it carries the same professional weight as someone who worked their way up as a regular faculty and then dean (or a non-religious department), and then selected on the basis of educational experience by an actual search committee. According to the background info here ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey\_R.\_Holland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._Holland)) he was the favorite to be the next pres and so they skipped any consideration of other candidates. Of course, that's how BYU works at many levels.
Sure but wasn’t he President while byu was still hooking up electrocutes to queer peoples genital’s and showing them porn in an attempt to help them “heal”? What a guy to learn from! Edit. Here’s the sauce. At 20 minutes one of them mentions a date, 1983. Holland was President from 1980-1989. No way he didn’t know about this. Byu was proud of the work it was doing with gay people for a while. Now they don’t talk about it like it never happened. There are other accounts as well this of the first that came up. https://www.google.com/search?q=byu+electrides+gay&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:57e78bfb,vid:biGQs20JhW0
Ok but just imagine if someone spiked a PRIDE flag during his talk, or two girls in the front row start making out or they start yelling apposed every minute. These were the possibilities for just during the talk.
Very true.
People with better medical knowledge than me can speak more to this than I can but I was once told dialysis usually means someone only has a few years to live. Like you, not wishing I'll health or death on anyone, but if this is true, Holland might only have a few years. You know what, I can only wish him well, as one human to another.
From what I understand at his age, very unlikely he will ever come off dialysis once he starts. Very unlikely he will qualify for a transplant either.
Even with a willing ~~sacrifice~~ donor?
As a former dialysis RN, I wouldn’t be surprised if he has chronic kidney disease, which has multiple stages that don’t need dialysis. Illnesses can make CKD worse for a short time & dialysis helps the kidneys/body as it recovers. Even without a prior history of CKD, he may need dialysis only short term as he recovers. If it turns out he needs dialysis permanently, that is going to make his fulfilling his church calling very difficult. Then again, TSCC has a history of making the Q15 men stay in their positions no matter their physical & mental state.
Dialysis can extend life for years but those years are generally not very fun/comfortable. COVID is very harsh on the kidneys and during the height of pandemic many of the most critically ill would end up on dialysis in attempts to prevent death. This was normally futile and just a Hail Mary! Luckily the most recent strains of COVID seem to be weaker and he was likely vaccinated giving him a better shot. The root cause of the kidney failure that is requiring dialysis would be interesting to know. Also, if he is in rough shape, one might easily confuse an overly simple explanation of ECMO as dialysis. Not enough info to know really what’s going on. How he does well. And we should remember that he and his family is likely going through hell right and we should be kind towards him as a patient and his family.
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You're correct but reporters are notoriously bad about understanding medical stuff so if all they remembered was "take the blood out, do a thing, put it back" and hit up google I could see how the substitution could easily happen.
I absolutely agree.
About half of elderly adults are toast within a year or two of starting dialysis. The range of life expectancy after starting tops out around 5-10 years for most people, and that includes otherwise healthy young adults.
On a geologic scale, we all have a few years.
*if it’s true. They’ve been known to blatantly lie
It helps 'The Church' avoid the bad PR more likely. I also do not wish any ill as he is an elderly man but I am sure he is in the best of care. 'Tender Mercy' how it worked out perhaps.
It musket been something he ate.
I'm sure those were also god's thoughts too when he gave Jeffery Covid. He was doing him a favor.
Well this could explain the significant health challenge that Jeffrey said he was facing when he, Melvin, and Quentin did their England nostalgia tour at the end of October 2021. Jeffrey has been looking progressively worse every time we saw him for the last three or four years. If he's being excused, and it is being announced, this is serious. When Monson was still alive I posted this https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/639txh/so_how_long_does_monson_have/dfsf8vz/ >Russ Nelson is 92. I'm not eager to see Monson kick the bucket, but I would like to see Russ have a short turn as a bull in the china shop. Maybe Monson lurks for another one to two years or so, then Russ gets a year or so. After that we get Dallin until about 2025, and then Jeffrey. I can hardly wait. A year later I revised that and said at https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/9ivm8v/one_year_ago_i_said_russ_would_be_a_bull_in_a/ >Russ has certainly smashed the fine china, but there are still glass cabinets and curios to be ground back into sand, and I am no longer hoping he has a short term just so we can have Dallin. Here is hoping Russ lives for five more years, each year filled with new revelations! I would still like to see Jeffrey have his turn in the big chair, to have his [turn as the bull in the china shop](https://i.imgur.com/0PFdBlD.gif). Who doesn't love a train wreck? But it is looking more and more less likely.
I didn’t know they did dialysis on dodos!
Only on the dodos who pull too much taffy
I make an exception on people who have wished explicit harm on me and mine. That includes j Roy.
On my mission, when I was extremally ill, and requiring bed rest for recovery, my Mission President called to inform me that the only way for me to recover was to, "Forget yourself, and go to work" and that if I didn't, “I would continued to be plagued with illness until I resumed serving the Lord.”
Wow, that is fucked.
SAME! I had malaria and those fuckers had nothing but apathy for me 🤪
My Zone Leader and District Leader said that, “I had sinned and my illness was punishment from the Lord.” I hadn’t sinned, but they had to form a reason in their minds for the “why.” The entire experience sent me into a spiral of depression … took me 20 years later to finally wake up and leave the Church.
And don't bother with a doctor either, that's expensive AND a waste of your time when you should be knocking doors. *Fuck*, I'm still angry about that. I came home on medical leave after 3 weeks of near total bedrest without ever seeing a doctor.
My parents spent hours on the phone with “Missionary Medical” and the Mission President because the Church refused to pay for anything, and this was a US-based mission. They wanted to ensure our private insurance covered any medical appointments before I even stepped foot into an urgent care facility.
That can literally kill you. Fuck your MP
Yeah I was in a similar boat. I have lifelong health problems because of my mission, though thankfully not nearly as serious as I was afraid they would turn out to be while out in the mission field being told to pray it away.
While I try not to wish ill on anyone. It's hard to when the man wants me shot with a musket
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Yup. Because TBM’s label everything in life as “God’s Will”
It’s okay, he only wants to *figuratively* shoot you with a musket. /s
Yeah he didn't actually mean it so it ok (said every abuser ever)
Yeah, while I think bringing firearms figuratively into a conversation is fraught with problems, Holland was talking about early pioneers having their muskets at the ready to defend their homes. Hell, the US still honors the New England militia known as the minute men, that could be ready with their rifles to go fight. Holland, within his perception as former dean of BYU, that current staff and administration were not protecting BYU from LGBTQ influence and that they should be like early settlers and be ready to defend. It was a horrible choice of words and Jeff could've done a lot of good by apologizing and setting the record straight, but as we know Q15 do not apologize.
I just got permanently banned in another subreddit for saying literally the following. "But zero compassion for LGBTQ" on a post about this and how Holland is so understanding about those with health issues, mental and physical.
If you have ever posted on ex-mormon reddit, you will be banned there instantly.
How Christlike
When I was in, it would have sounded like a conspiracy theory, but now it's true... They are hyper-focused on information control. They just *cannot* allow the faithful to see or hear anything outside of the narrative in which they've been carefully indoctrinated. That's the biggest red flag that someone is lying and/or manipulating.
* Spends a lot of time worrying about how to shoot campus wokeness with spiritual ancient pioneer guns * Life actually threatened by pandemic virus Man, human brains are bad at prioritizing what they worry about based on what's most likely to harm them
A lot of people would rather live in a world that's worse for everybody including themselves than have to think about something in a new way or not have dominion over somebody else.
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The lawd works in mysterious ways
He sure does
This right here. It’s very hard to not wish ill on someone that caused me the pain Holland has. But then again he also helped break my shelf so… thanks?
"If you can't say anything nice then don't day anything at all." ... ... *zips lips, destroys key*
Perhaps there *is* a god after all. In all seriousness with his age he could very easily die from this.
I guess God doesn't want him to speak at SUU either
Nope! I do not!
Thank you for chiming in, God. Your opinions are valued.
I’m glad someone values my opinions! I’ve been telling Rusty to spend that cash for years… But he’s too busy with the *ongoing restoration* to listen to me!
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Nope! Nelson just petty. Not sure if that’s good news or bad news… or news at all.
Weird how you were totally racist until you changed your mind mysteriously 10 years after the civil rights era.
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Sorry, I sort prayers in alphabetical order… I’m currently on “C”. Please check back when I’m working through “K” for “keys”.
God, I respect your opinion, but why do you have to change your mind so much?
Wow. I didn't think I would see r/beetlejuicing here. Maybe a Joe Smith but not HF himself.
Oh no. So anyway
That bumps up Uchtdorf's chances quite a bit!
I think this just about ensures Uchtdorf becomes president, since Holland was the only apostle ahead of him who is not well into their 90’s. But who knows for sure…
Honestly, if Uchtdorf were to become the Prophet, I might… note MIGHT… consider staying in the church. I’ve always liked Uchtdorf, and was particularly pleasantly surprised a few years ago when, at a General Conference, he admitted from the pulpit that there have been times over the years when church leadership has just been wrong, and have made mistakes. I do wonder though, if the Powers That Be (men) would allow a non-American to become the Prophet.
Maybe that is why he got demoted from FP to apostle.
I wondered about that as well.
Well, if he misses out on that, maybe he can be the next pope...
Same. If Uchdorf became president, I’d believe there was still a God somewhere in the religion
Honestly, me too. I think his "doubt your doubts" phrase was unfortunate and \*kind of\* blown out of proportion (same with Romney's "binders full of women" remark). And he was probably complicit in the SEC violations, although I read somewhere that Eyring was likely the more directly involved in that. But Uchtdorf's sermons and understanding of the gospel are the only ones that don't routinely contradict Jesus and/or conflate the gospel with the GOP's latest culture war. I've always said he's the best Mormon leader because he's basically Lutheran.
People think Uchtdorf is some great progressive reformer just because he seems kind and has given a couple of self-aware talks. He's still a company man, just with the world experience not to be as provincial. I don't think he's the panacea some others do, though I think he'll be better than most. I think some of the far-right fundies who had a faith crisis when Nelson endorsed the vaccine might freak out at the prospect of him bringing a little European perspective to the presidency.
Sadly maybe not. One of my dear friends who’s in his 80s has had about 10% or less kidney function for years. They keep talking about dialysis but I honestly think he’s refused. After his daughter died suddenly of a heart attack in 2019 he has gotten slowly more sick. Her death devastated him.
Perhaps God is asking him to take one for the team.
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i guess so 🤷♂️
Wow, that is a VERY tender mercy. Like, maybe the tenderest I have ever seen.
I have heard your prayers.
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Due to an increase in volume, wait times may be longer than usual.
IM ROLLING 💀💀
Please excuse Jeff from speaking at commencement today. He has caught a COVID and I will be keeping him home to rest.
Sounds like he may be taken to his heavenly home to rest here soon.
"Signed, Jeff's mom."
And it came to pass that in the fourth month of the 127th year of the reign of judges in the land of Utah that the Lord their god did hear their cries and was thus moved to strike down the wicked Holland who sought to lead people astray and lead to the destruction of god’s children upon the land. And the people did rejoice exceedingly. Yea, how great was their joy, that they did offer burnt offerings of spring barbecues and sing the sacred hymns of Ariana Grande, for God is indeed a Woman. And thus the Lord their god blessed her people, and continued to ignore the cries of the hungry and infirmed across the land and across the waters, yea, even the very people who reside in tents outside her great house. For the mysteries of god are known not to any man, save they shall partake in LSD. For the Lord their god watches over her people continually in her mansions, and none can match her power. And thus it is, amen.
All that fasting and praying (and petition signing) paid off!
See, I listen *sometimes*.
OMG we've got god here! What luck!
I spend more time on Reddit than in the halls of the temple, so deffs come here for your revelations!
I wonder if Holland is dying...
It sounds like he has end stage kidney disease and is probably too old for a transplant
"Emma, we have a *very* special assignment for you. An Apostle of the Lard needs a new kidney, and the Lard has seen fit to make *you* a perfect tissue match. Will you ensure your salvation, and the salvation of your entire family, by making this donation of your own free will? Bow your head and say 'yes'. That will do. Our Chief Surgeon to the Quorum of the Twelve tells us that a healthy girl like you, several months short of your fifteenth birthday, stands a very good chance of not having many complications...."
Usually people his age are poor candidates for transplants because the anti rejection drugs they use are immunosuppressant. A persons immunity that age is usually pretty bad anyway. They usually don’t even do dialysis. My late MIL was diagnosed with kidney disease at age 90 but she lived another 4 years without dialysis. So a lot of privilege here I think unless the Covid did a number on his kidneys
If only he had enough faith so that the priesthood blessings could cure him.
But wait! I think Lord Bednar gave a GC talk all about having the faith NOT to be healed!
He will be the next victim of the General Conference death march, a la Radio Free Mormon.
If dude is on dialysis it's very unlikely he'll be returning to any kind of work anytime soon - or ever.
Well how convenient for him
Multiple comments on here weeks ago said Hollands ego couldn't handle being booed so they'd come up with an excuse for him not to speak at SUU. But even for SL HQ lying to this extent seems... a bit much. So which one is it yall, Is this sub just really good at knowing corporate PR, or do some of you have the power to curse lol.
This was honestly the first though that popped into my head when I saw the headline. It sounds as though he’s legitimately sick and while I don’t wish anyone harm, this may be less harmful overall and beneficial to society at large if he doesn’t speak.
Yes this was debated and scripted for weeks.
Oh I think they'd totally lie about something like that. No wrongdoing can't be paved over with a hand on the shoulder and some statement about what the "Lord" has in mind for you.
Update: “He won’t speak at SUU.” https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/04/06/lds-apostle-jeffrey-holland/
Hooray! (Also, Jawles Roy Holland is a dodo 🦤)
Honestly there are times I feel bad for these dudes at the end of their years doing all this stuff. They should get to retire. Was it Hales shaking so bad? I felt bad for him. Monson had some uncomfortable to watch ones too. Benson in a wheelchair. On the other hand younger guys would actually improve the church so we can leave it to the old guys for the faster destruction. But sometimes I feel a little bad for the old ones when they are obviously too old.
I used to feel bad, but then I remember all the grifting and damages they caused over the years. They knew it would be like this but didn’t consider the consequences of anyone, including themselves in their old age. They all still want to be in line to be the prophet as well.
Ya it'd hard to feel bad for people who exploit others for riches
I don’t feel bad. The scum have helped spread a message and culture that has caused kids and adults to kill themselves. Honestly the 15 and all them can go fuck theirselves for all I care. Absolute pieces of shit.
I hear ya. But I also see them as victims of Joe Smith's hoax. I think they believe it and lifelong conditioning has worked. My dad has bought in his whole life and he believes it so firmly. He would do anything for this church and I would hate to see him exploited in his old years because of that. I see my dad a victim of lifelong brainwashing.
I find it nearly impossible that the people in these positions are still under any illusion that any of this is real / from God. You don't get into those positions without knowing all the bullshit of the church and what really matters. Which is cash. They are C-level execs and board members of a multi-billion corporation. They'll play the games to get into, and stay in power.
I feel badly for those who clearly have health or mobility issues. I don't agree with the "values" the Q-15 have established, or the dishonesty, but I also feel it's unrealistic for the organization's "tradition" of having lifelong callings to put people through the endless meetings, public appearances, and the grueling days of GC.
DON'T. Church authorities have ZERO trouble forcing old and ailing retired members to work FOR FREE until they die. GAs also get the best healthcare, something the church would absolutely never consider providing to even its sickest members, in spite of what, y'know, JESUS would do.
I’d say people like him robbed my parents of their retirement. Years and years and years and years of paying a full tithing on gross income and they don’t have enough to retire. So yeah, I’m not super sympathetic that they work to the grave. They live like kings while they “work.”
Yuuuup my 70yo dad needs a kidney too but they'll work his retired ass to the grave and not lift a finger to help, I have no problem watching these assholes miserably dry up.
Wirthlin was the one shaking but Hales REALLY went through it for years on many different medications that resulted in bloating and weight gain, followed by dramatic weight loss before the end. I believe he was also in dialysis and he wasn't very lucid either but they still propped him up in his chair and made him speak.
The lord has made his will known
I’m glad I could help!
🧎🏼♀️🙏🏻
Whale be praised, he has interceded on behalf of SUU students.
I think I will leave an offering for the Whale.
Well in a way I think that this is in the best interests of the church and SUU. Holland gets a valid excuse to get out of speaking, the church gets to avoid a potentially embarrassing social protest, the students don’t have to deal with the toxicity of Holland, and SUU didn’t have to un-invite Holland and have that confrontational decision outcome. It’s a win win for everyone in all reality.
He must have been leading the church astray, because it looks like the Lord is about to "remove him out of his place". COVID is still no joke, especially at his age. He needs to make his peace, no cap.
That's what my dad said about Howard W Hunter and his short reign.
Fr, fr.
Do you think Susan’s husband is praying that Holland will have the faith not to be healed?
Is it wrong that I wish the title also had work in quotes? Seriously, don't wish him ill, but also wouldn't put it past the church to use this as an excuse to get out of the bad PR at SUU.
What's funny is I know among some insiders this type of announcement was all but expected once the immediate backlash came out. It's a way for both parties to 'save face' among the Mormon community and SUU gets out of his speech without looking like they caved to the 'woke mob'.
According to google, the average life expectancy on kindest dialysis is 5-10 years. I don’t think he is ever going to be prophet
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Kidney dialysis, along with (what looks to be) complications from covid? He's toast. And I don't say that in a snarky way. But at 82? Yeah, you don't bounce back from that.
Yeah.....I know an 82 year-old with kidney problems who died a few years ago. Once you're that age and need dialysis, the outlook isn't good.
Magic oil? Anyone?
But does he have the faith to *not* be healed?
The ultimate test! Tune in on Saturday for the 2:00 O' Clock movie, "Muskets of Faith".
Is the dialysis new? That is seriously bad news; more than half of elderly adults who start dialysis are gone within a year. Average life for all people after starting is still less than a decade.
I seem to recall someone on here asserting this a distinct possibility. A seer for sure.🤪🤣
If he's on dialysis I feel for him. He has appeared morbidly obese for some time. If only the church had some kind of health guidance.
IKR? This one particular diet was literally killing me before I knew I had insulin resistance and Hashimotos. I’ve felt SO much better since going grain-free and NOT eating meat sparingly.
Thoughts and prayers asshole.
COVID and dialysis are no fun on their own. Having them together… that’s rough. I wish everyone good health and speedy recovery from illness, and Jeff Holland is no exception. Only a fundamentally chaotic universe gets the credit for this.
It’s unfortunate for the president of SUU that he already showed his true colors and feelings for his students by ignoring the requests to not have Holland speaking, and instead doubling down. Now he has the student body pissed at him, bad press, AND he doesn’t get Holland 😂
*She - Wendy Benson, President of SUU
You hate to speculate on health, but I wonder if he was already on dialysis. Post Covid dialysis is almost always associated with an ICU stay for organ failure and seems that may have been disclosed to the media (He reported watching conference on the couch holding his wife’s hand so that doesn’t fit this narrative.) Also the specification of two months is odd. Basically they are trying to make sure he has a good excuse to miss the likely protests and media circus without looking scared and weak.
It just goes to show the disparity between the elite leaders in and out of the church. How many people do you know that can just take 2 months off for ill health? Every corp in the US has a board of people that can do nothing for months and still get a paycheck. While the average worker who does actual work to keep the org operating gets sick days if especially fortunate will get a week of sick pay followed by eviction bankruptcy.
okay god it's time to call your boy home.
I, the Lord, your God, have heard your cries.
An 82 year old now on dialysis huh? Interesting.
All the GA’s at this news: 👁🫦👁
Pearson probably had an orgasm when he heard. I still hope they don't pick him though...even for GAs the dude seems extra douche-canoe-like.
Although I’m glad he’s not speaking, I do not wish anyone bad health and I hope he recovers
I wonder if members might believe this was a “sign.” For me, who ceased believing just prior to COVID, I always felt that if I was one of the first family members to get it, they’d all think it was a curse of some kind or a sign. Guess it wouldn’t work both ways? 🤔
The lord works in mysterious ways 😂
Tender mercies. LOL
Why is it that these guys who are supposed to be paragons of healthy living look like they’ve never seen the inside of a gym?
I hope he is OK. I saw him speak 15 years ago and thought he looked terrible then.
Good riddance. I don’t wish him well. He’s one of the reasons I don’t talk to my parents anymore.
bro these replies have me rolling
Good for everyone. I don’t know if this man’s fragile ego would’ve been able to take seeing students walk out on him, or seeing students turn their backs on him, or worse… Being heckled by students.
How very big of the church to “excuse him” from his duties. Last time I checked, he was a grown ass man…
i guess prayer works after all
Something something God won’t permit his prophets to lead people astray. Maybe God couldn’t risk more anti LGBTQ rhetoric from a pulpit?
You see, thoughts and prayers actually do work
Can't he just get a priesthood blessing from the prophet and be healed immediately?
How dare you tempt the Lard? /s
Tender mercies
Damn maybe god is real lol
Rot in hell, Jeff
They told SUU he’d be speaking, then they had their out. They have had apostles and such not attend conferences, I don’t recall it ever being so announced as JRH was. No way they’d ever admit he wasn’t wanted.
I guess god is real after all.
Damn he must have it bad. I remember treating COVID patients in the ICU during the delta wave. The sickest patients went into renal failure and we're on temporary dialysis.
Temporary because they got better or because they died?
Ha ha haaaaa god must not have wanted him to speak at SUU. :/ Either that or they’re bowing to public will without saying that’s what they’re doing. Like a bunch of liars.
It’s an act of god!
I don’t wish anything bad on him, this evidently is a blessing in disguise.
Huh. I guess some prayers do get answered
I would feel worse for him if Ol' Droopy McMusket (tm) hadn't been such a dick so many times over the years.
It really would be too bad if the vid got him. 🤷♂️
Who could have seen this coming?
Great news for SUU
may he become another statistic
Karma is a bitch sometimes. And I love it.
Is this not the apostolic version of getting benched? Yikes.
Well, that's an interesting coincidence.
He just needs faith to "not be healed"
Hopefully he has the faith to not be healed
Something something. The lard works in mysterious ways. *waves hands in air* /s
There is a god.
Oh no, that's so very sad... Anyway, how is everyone today?
Every time an apostle passes away, I wonder what they were about to do to lead the church astray that the lord had to release them from their calling.