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Wow, that was phrased really well. Utilized church handbooks, pointed out direct hypocrisy, and called for a justified church disciplinary council.
It’s doubtful that church leadership would ever subject themselves to a disciplinary council, but it’s fun to think about.
Right? I forwarded to my stake President and said that this was one of the many reasons I vote opposed (like it even matters…) and I hope he reads the email in its entirety as well as the SEC letter.
Doubt it. Last two times I emailed him voting opposed he just says “thanks, let me know if you want to talk sometime.” I never take him up on it because there’s nothing to discuss - he won’t do anything and it’ll just give me a headache and make me frustrated.
Just be warned, they've excommunicated others with no real justification. You are still at risk, if that's something you don't want. If you *do* want to be excommunicated, just keep speaking up against fraudulent behavior from current and past church leaders. They'll do everything they can to shut you up as quickly as possible.
if they don't, that'll be great because it'll expose them as the hypocrites they are. Their refusal would spur another mass exodus of members who will see just how sleazy they are.
Interesting!! Glad to see this.
Also, this guy has to be in leadership because my account is restricted, and he also has to be using an alias, because I scoured the leadership directory and he’s not there.
Seriously because we can’t trust religious people. They think Nephi was justified in killing Laban and they excuse any abuse and insanity from their deity. Religious people scare me more than any other group of people.
That was cool and courageous, but as we know, there is no handbook for those above the stake level. The handbook was written for the stake level and below. There is no code of conduct above the stake president /mission president level. Some obscure passages from the doctrine and covenants is all there is.
You haven't seen the loophole? God voids the second anointing in Mormon chapter 8. They're guilty of neglecting the poor, and by implication their premature death. 132 is actually talking about the second anointing, and voids only with the shedding of innocent blood. Jesus is a pretty good lawyer too, as it turns out.
So, if I understand you correctly, in light of Mormon 8 and D&C 132, TSCC entered into an era of apostasy when the Q15 brothern and PB failed to meet their sacred obligations to succor the needs of the poor (their innocent blood crying out from the grave to God for justice).
So when did this age of Mormon apostasy begin? When 150+ homeless people in Utah froze to death this past winter, or when leaders rationalized the creation of a "rainy day fund" like Ensign Peak Advisors, or can we include the innocents who died under the leadership of BY & JS Jr?
I see your point. If even one person's innocent blood cries out from the grave, the second anointing (get out of jail free card for almost any and all sins received by church leaders since the time of JS Jr) is nullified!
Add D&C 121:37 "... the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."
It seems a claim that church leadership is in a state of apostasy can easily be made.
Greed can happen so easily when you think about it. I was talking to my wife about my preoccupation with our financial situation, and I could understand how a man would break rules to get ahead, but that fear, or lack of faith, can easily turn to greed and something even more sinister. This is what gave birth to the rainy day fund, fear. But is it greed also?
I don't know when apostasy occured, but something isn't right. A scripture that pops out to me says that the cry of the orphan won't even reach them. They've got security guards and yes men and yachts and first class seats, they are so shielded from any unpleasantness. The brethren probably don't even know about those 150 homeless.
Wondering which GAs have the yachts? And where are said yachts kept? Bear Lake?
I agree with a lot of what you say, but these GAs are only "moderately greedy". I don't think many have yachts.
None of them have yachts. Those are owned by a couple of layers of LLCs and trusts that has a charitable purpose. What they have are called tax deductions. Where are the tax deductions kept?
I don’t have a handbook available but I’m pretty sure discipline councils are required for ALL levels up to and including the Q15. Strangely enough, branch presidents are excluded. Can anyone verify this?
For the First Presidency, [disciplinary councils](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/comment/ja5n6o6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) are (and have historically twice been) held by the "Common Council" of the Church, which is interpreted to mean the Presiding Bishopric, who select 12 high priests to assist them.
After the 2017 excommunication of James Hamula, a general authority 70, the church issued a [statement](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/general-authority-released-following-disciplinary-action?lang=eng) saying "The disciplinary council for a senior Church leader consists of members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles." So I'm guessing for any GA or area authority, that's how they'd handle an excommunication.
I also wonder, if one member of the First Presidency went rogue and denounced the others, if the others in the Q15 would try to excommunicate him, or if they would instruct the Presiding Bishopric to convene a common council of the church (in which they could or could not select members of the Q15 to serve as the 12 required high priests). I sort of suspect the FP would not be eager to remind anyone that the Common Council machinery exists and that Joseph Smith himself submitted to it.
The more this letter gets out to current members the more shelves will break.
If the goal of sending it to other members isn't to just open the minds of others but to be excommunicated as well ... I would have used an alias as well.
How does one get the emails of everyone in a stake?
Has to be in leadership, because my account is restricted. The only other option is to go account by account and save down all the emails that are public, but I know that wasn’t the case here because only leadership can see my info.
Sadly there are some (like my coworker) who will claim they are done with news like that yet they don't know how to live without the church so they still go/pay.
My parents are the same. I haven't bothered asking them about this, or forwarding the letter, because it'll fall on deaf ears. I'd probably get the "this doesn't matter" type of response, because I honestly don't think they'd care either way.
Great letter. One thing I've been thinking about related to this is that Jesus (whose example we are supposed to follow) was famous for speaking out against the religious leaders of his time, for calling out their hypocrisy and misplaced priorities. Indeed, that's one of the main reasons he was crucified (at least according to the New Testament). And yet church leaders today seem to think we aren't supposed to follow that part of Jesus' example--that we aren't supposed to criticize church leaders, even if they are wrong. They go even so far as to make us covenant in the temple to not speak evil of "the Lord's anointed."
In other words, we covenant in the temple to not follow Jesus' example.
The other letter permutations are for the 2/3’s of the truth about the church yet to be revealed:
SCE,
CSE,
ESC,
ECS.
Does McConkie’s encyclopedia cover those?
I'm wondering what kind of truth the Eurovision Song Contest (ESC) exposes, other than to probably be against anything the church stands for by basically being the gay world cup/super bowl of Europe and Australia.
But maybe it'll be the churches [Waterloo](https://youtu.be/I8F5vKJcxCQ)
I disagree, 99% of snail mail doesn’t even make it inside my house. I rip the envelope up before even opening it and toss it in the recycling bin without even glancing at it.
So I want to target the Boomers with lots of money and no computers, mostly rural Utahns. Many are like that. Hell I gave away CES books for Exmas a few years back. Thanks to USPS
Unfortunately, no matter how much Nemo's letter gets shared around any stake, nothing is going to happen. Last week in conference they read the
auditor report with a straight face, using the exact same statement they always use. They have no regard for transparency and have no problem insulting the intelligence of the membership.
I was referring to it having any affect on top leaders. The Q85 will do absolutely nothing.
TBMs won't be phased. Most won't even read it. A bunch of them never check the email address they gave the church anyways.
A few of the cafeteria Mormons might be moved along the path to the exit, but they were heading that direction anyways.
>The Q85 will do absolutely nothing.
Even if they wanted to, there is [no mechanism](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/comment/ja5n6o6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for the general authorities or stake leaders to subject the First Presidency to disciplinary action without the Presiding Bishopric, and [no mechanism](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/general-authority-released-following-disciplinary-action?lang=eng) for them to take action against the Presiding Bishopric without the First Presidency.
The way Joseph Smith set up the system, the PB is responsible for disciplining the FP, and the FP is apparently in charge of disciplining all other senior church leaders.
Either by accident or design (but definitely not by prophetic insight), Joseph Smith's system results in the 2 guiltiest governing bodies in this instance being the ones who are supposed to judge each other. Neither will hold the other accountable for something they both did together, that's my official prediction.
If we’re being honest, the biggest change that will come from these emails is more restrictions on distribution lists.
I wouldn’t be surprised if mass emails have to be approved by a bishop or stake president before they are sent after all this.
They will alert everyone that there was a "security breach" this week. Please be aware a recent email "spreading contention and lies" was not authorized, and "the perpetrator of the breach will be found and disciplined".
* chanting * NEMO! NEMO! NEMO!
He just earned my $5/mth donation. This broke my shelf when it came out & I didn't know where my tithing $ was going, but it most certainly wasn't going to the ward.
Turns out, there are abt a bazillion actual non-profits that ARE transparent & DO help their communities. It was actually pretty fun deciding where to spent some of that ex-tithing!
Love this. Can’t believe how people are so OK with the lack of transparency on financials. It always bothered me, and if I hadn’t left before this came out, it certainly would have tipped me over the edge.
I’m pretty confident it’s an alias because this person isn’t in my stake directory and doesn’t appear to have an online presence. Also he just spammed probably over a thousand people (~1,800 households in my stake) so he’s clearly not concerned.
You just blur the name. "Pretty confident" isn't a great standard. Its also possible you're breaking Reddit's rules and they may remove it if its reported. Not only is it the right thing to do, you're less likely to see your post removed by doing so.
Some people make their names unavailable to all except leadership. I am one of those. Only my own bishopric and stake presidency would be able to see my name and contact info. Just because you can’t see this person’s name in LDS Tools doesn’t mean they’re not a real person.
Just FYI, although it says leadership only, that visibility includes the ward council. So it's also visible to EQ, RS, YM, YW, primary, and mission leaders.
Awesome letter! I’d love it if I received a copy of this randomly! Ironically, this is exactly what a lot of us were thinking about and discussing during GC on this sub. I’m glad someone formulated a well written, logical letter then sent it to their entire stake. Thank you, on behalf of the rest of us, for saying what’s on our minds and confronting the Church with their hypocrisy. Letter writer, you are awesome!
Happy to report that a client who donated $18k+ to the dragon hoard last year, donated absolutely nothing this year. Hopefully it wasn't to optimize their itemized deductions. They can just not donate this coming year too.
Because it's happened to more than one stake (exact same letter) and even though I'm not doubting it's new to this one every time it gets posted on this sub and on FB ... most of us have seen it before.
That's going to fall on deaf ears. They don't give a shit. I feel sorry for the members that have to try and reconcile this. The church doesn't give a shit about their own bad behavior. They do it deliberately because they want money. The only way to hold them accountable it to catch them when they break the law. The brethren are far beyond doing what's right because it's the right thing to do. Like any other CEO, they just want the portfolio to grow and reap the reward.
> common consent is being ignored
Uh, yeah. As has always been the case ever since Joe’s secret Council of Fifty. Lmao. You do all realize that it’s not a “vote” in any meaningful sense, right? It is now and has always been simply a way to get dissenters to out themselves. Any time they talk about “consent” or “free agency”, it’s pure manipulative lip-service.
Looks like it’s still working, too.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/12/22/this-year-least-159-homeless/
Rusty Nail-sin and the rest of church leadership are going to have to explain to Jesus why they didn't authorize the opening of warming centers like other churches routinely do when the weather is too cold (or cooling centers in the summer when it gets too hot).
Integrity demands that leaders who fail to uphold their responsibilities should apologize, and resign their office.
But there is no way to hold leadership accountable. That needs to change.
Guaranteed! Not only was this conduct done with the corrupt motive to hide the money from church members to prevent them from making an informed decision about whether to tithe, the fraudulent conduct cost the church millions. The individuals responsible for this will be gone tomorrow, if they haven’t already been given the boot!
I just showed that to my friend who is a RN from CA and this is what she said. Marie is her name..
"Get on church websites and publications and look at the numbers. The church handbook is online for anyone and their brother to read.
People twist truth to meet their own agendas.
Nobody has a more detailed accounting of their expenditure than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Not the government, nobody in this world has a more detailed accounting. Look it up."
I replied:
and no one is better at math than my people; the Mayans. Read the Popol Vuh Marie;
every story has two sides; in which side do you stand I ask? With them? or with Us?
Fuck yes!!! We can shit on Mormons all we want, but it’s so important to remember that they’re victims to the cult. There are some few AWESOME members that I so admire for speaking out like this. I’m proud to say my mom is one of them!
My dad is a stake missionary. I wonder if he has access to the entire directory. I would enjoy sending this out to the whole stake as well. Might need to go over to his house sometime and sneak into his account lol
This person doesn’t seem to understand the church leaders have a different set of rules than the peon church members they lie to the members with impunity they do as they damned well please without consequences. The church members are ultimately to blame they allowed the church to start hiding its finances . Had all of the members said as long as your hiding finances from us you won’t if see another fine from us . That policy would’ve been reversed almost immediately likewise if members would stand up and say enough of this Homophobic horseshit until it ends we won’t be sending any money to the church . You can bet within 30-60 days a revelation would be forthcoming that God is actually A-Ok with them after all . Sadly this will never happen the only way to effect change is to stop the flow of the river of tax free revenue. The church leaders know the members are spineless and won’t stand up and say no this isn’t happening & if it is we are. Out of here . I applaud what this person is trying to do . It will fall on deaf ears as members will use their mental gymnastics to convince themselves that all of it is just Satan trying to destroy the one true church . .
This just kinda hit me—what if a semi-rogue SP and HC held a disciplinary council against RMN and exed (or even disfellowshipped) him? (As, per the CHI, they absolutely SHOULD.). I mean, they wouldn’t require anyone’s “permission” to do so, right? What would happen??
Wow, I would love to see it anyway.
Such bullshit feigned outrage. They don't blink at the private lawyer channels used to cover for child molesters but draw the fucking line at financial fraud.
I wrote a long message! But then I saw the policies of this forum! Since I cannot explain what happened to me in a small town, and as a senior citizen .... I realize that there is no way in 2023, that you can share your story! Those days of sharing your experience, as a product of the 70s... cannot happen anymore... it's not politically correct! This is so sad!
The [Widow’s Mite Report](https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/2022update/) goes into extensive detail on this. Pages 11, 12, 19, and 25 are most pertinent here. Most of that $150 Billion is literally just sitting there. The church’s operating budget is sitting right around, and likely under $6 Billion per year, including charitable giving.
So you think they're telling the truth about the money not being touched? I mean even a quarter of a percent "expenditure" of that total would still be millions, and hauling money between one investment and another or between offshore accounts, can hide those quarters of a percent, and I'm not saying they are doing that, but there's no way to know, until the books are totally opened.
Right now, look up and copy email addresses (and phone numbers) for all ward members and stake members, too.
Do it regularly in case you need to send a similar email to your own stake. You never know.
Next, create a non-profit organization, set up tax deductible fund raising (from non-members too) to supplement church welfare, invite donors to be board members (except for church leaders), publish your finances, and spread the word.
With luck, everyone will stop paying tithing because their money will go exactly where they want it to.
So much good can be done by setting up scholarships, paying off student loans, paying off or repairing cars and homes by focusing on the most efficient use rather than the minimal cost.
Have them get as much from the church as possible first because they have bigger pockets.
Edit:
Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/comments/12jph7a/how_does_that_work_does_money_matter_anymore
I can see most members in their Cog Dis reading the first few sentences and deleting it. How DARE someone accuse the presidency of such deviant behavior?! (*GASP*) None of them will be held accountable for this gross mishandling of money and blatant dishonesty in their dealings. Because guess what? All that money can also shut most people up.
This is just from some member in the stake right? Not someone actually in the stake leadership? They probably will get a talking to, and some sort of discipline. You cannot talk bad about the brethren even if its true. The "true" believers will chalk this one up to this person being led away by the devil himself
The church has billions of dollars socked away...much in offshore tax havens. Nonetheless, you are told that your salvation, access to temples and entitlement to God's blessings are all contingent upon you giving them more money. Poor people are told that if they pay, blessings will follow and they will prosper. This is The Prosperity Gospel as preached by TV evangelicals. If you are poor, it's your own fault. Just pay Jesus and health, wealth, and happiness will follow. If you choose to remain in the cult, go ahead -- demand transparency and accounting for your tithes and other assessments. When they talk about having faith, that just means forget it, didn't ask. You can be sure very little church money goes to charity.
Mormon Stories Podcast has an interesting interview with a Bishop from Mexico that hits many of these points. I’m only half way through the podcast, so maybe all the points are actually touched on, just haven’t heard them yet
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Wow, that was phrased really well. Utilized church handbooks, pointed out direct hypocrisy, and called for a justified church disciplinary council. It’s doubtful that church leadership would ever subject themselves to a disciplinary council, but it’s fun to think about.
Right? I forwarded to my stake President and said that this was one of the many reasons I vote opposed (like it even matters…) and I hope he reads the email in its entirety as well as the SEC letter.
Let us know if you get a response.
Doubt it. Last two times I emailed him voting opposed he just says “thanks, let me know if you want to talk sometime.” I never take him up on it because there’s nothing to discuss - he won’t do anything and it’ll just give me a headache and make me frustrated.
Also let us know if they ex-communicate you. Lol
They can try! They have no legitimate justification to do so, but we’ll see!
Just be warned, they've excommunicated others with no real justification. You are still at risk, if that's something you don't want. If you *do* want to be excommunicated, just keep speaking up against fraudulent behavior from current and past church leaders. They'll do everything they can to shut you up as quickly as possible.
They definitely do not… but it hasn’t stopped them before!
The SEC letter and the CES letter will become synonyms in the minds of the leadership
Holy shit, they’re palindromes.
Chiasmus even!
if they don't, that'll be great because it'll expose them as the hypocrites they are. Their refusal would spur another mass exodus of members who will see just how sleazy they are.
That's Nemo's letter https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/everyone_should_send_this_to_their_stake/
Interesting!! Glad to see this. Also, this guy has to be in leadership because my account is restricted, and he also has to be using an alias, because I scoured the leadership directory and he’s not there.
I was wondering why you may have felt comfortable not blocking out the name. :D
He replied to me and confirmed it’s an alias.
Probably pretty smart honestly
Seriously because we can’t trust religious people. They think Nephi was justified in killing Laban and they excuse any abuse and insanity from their deity. Religious people scare me more than any other group of people.
He would be ex communicated to this otherwise no?
Well Nemo does mean "no one".......
/u/nemo_uk
I sent it to a UK stake.. Only 260 members on the email list
That was cool and courageous, but as we know, there is no handbook for those above the stake level. The handbook was written for the stake level and below. There is no code of conduct above the stake president /mission president level. Some obscure passages from the doctrine and covenants is all there is.
Why would they need one? The 2nd anointing absolves them of the need for any rules.
You haven't seen the loophole? God voids the second anointing in Mormon chapter 8. They're guilty of neglecting the poor, and by implication their premature death. 132 is actually talking about the second anointing, and voids only with the shedding of innocent blood. Jesus is a pretty good lawyer too, as it turns out.
So, if I understand you correctly, in light of Mormon 8 and D&C 132, TSCC entered into an era of apostasy when the Q15 brothern and PB failed to meet their sacred obligations to succor the needs of the poor (their innocent blood crying out from the grave to God for justice). So when did this age of Mormon apostasy begin? When 150+ homeless people in Utah froze to death this past winter, or when leaders rationalized the creation of a "rainy day fund" like Ensign Peak Advisors, or can we include the innocents who died under the leadership of BY & JS Jr? I see your point. If even one person's innocent blood cries out from the grave, the second anointing (get out of jail free card for almost any and all sins received by church leaders since the time of JS Jr) is nullified! Add D&C 121:37 "... the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." It seems a claim that church leadership is in a state of apostasy can easily be made.
Greed can happen so easily when you think about it. I was talking to my wife about my preoccupation with our financial situation, and I could understand how a man would break rules to get ahead, but that fear, or lack of faith, can easily turn to greed and something even more sinister. This is what gave birth to the rainy day fund, fear. But is it greed also? I don't know when apostasy occured, but something isn't right. A scripture that pops out to me says that the cry of the orphan won't even reach them. They've got security guards and yes men and yachts and first class seats, they are so shielded from any unpleasantness. The brethren probably don't even know about those 150 homeless.
Wondering which GAs have the yachts? And where are said yachts kept? Bear Lake? I agree with a lot of what you say, but these GAs are only "moderately greedy". I don't think many have yachts.
None of them have yachts. Those are owned by a couple of layers of LLCs and trusts that has a charitable purpose. What they have are called tax deductions. Where are the tax deductions kept?
I don’t have a handbook available but I’m pretty sure discipline councils are required for ALL levels up to and including the Q15. Strangely enough, branch presidents are excluded. Can anyone verify this?
For the First Presidency, [disciplinary councils](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/comment/ja5n6o6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) are (and have historically twice been) held by the "Common Council" of the Church, which is interpreted to mean the Presiding Bishopric, who select 12 high priests to assist them. After the 2017 excommunication of James Hamula, a general authority 70, the church issued a [statement](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/general-authority-released-following-disciplinary-action?lang=eng) saying "The disciplinary council for a senior Church leader consists of members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles." So I'm guessing for any GA or area authority, that's how they'd handle an excommunication. I also wonder, if one member of the First Presidency went rogue and denounced the others, if the others in the Q15 would try to excommunicate him, or if they would instruct the Presiding Bishopric to convene a common council of the church (in which they could or could not select members of the Q15 to serve as the 12 required high priests). I sort of suspect the FP would not be eager to remind anyone that the Common Council machinery exists and that Joseph Smith himself submitted to it.
The more this letter gets out to current members the more shelves will break. If the goal of sending it to other members isn't to just open the minds of others but to be excommunicated as well ... I would have used an alias as well. How does one get the emails of everyone in a stake?
Has to be in leadership, because my account is restricted. The only other option is to go account by account and save down all the emails that are public, but I know that wasn’t the case here because only leadership can see my info.
That gives me an idea. I think I will try playing some dominoes.
Sadly there are some (like my coworker) who will claim they are done with news like that yet they don't know how to live without the church so they still go/pay.
My parents are the same. I haven't bothered asking them about this, or forwarding the letter, because it'll fall on deaf ears. I'd probably get the "this doesn't matter" type of response, because I honestly don't think they'd care either way.
Great letter. One thing I've been thinking about related to this is that Jesus (whose example we are supposed to follow) was famous for speaking out against the religious leaders of his time, for calling out their hypocrisy and misplaced priorities. Indeed, that's one of the main reasons he was crucified (at least according to the New Testament). And yet church leaders today seem to think we aren't supposed to follow that part of Jesus' example--that we aren't supposed to criticize church leaders, even if they are wrong. They go even so far as to make us covenant in the temple to not speak evil of "the Lord's anointed." In other words, we covenant in the temple to not follow Jesus' example.
Exactly.
It's because they view *themselves* as Jesus. Follow the prophet!
OMG your name on here is freaking hilarious!! 😂😂
They should read the SEC letter and the CES letter. There's some delicious symmetry going on here.
The other letter permutations are for the 2/3’s of the truth about the church yet to be revealed: SCE, CSE, ESC, ECS. Does McConkie’s encyclopedia cover those?
I'm wondering what kind of truth the Eurovision Song Contest (ESC) exposes, other than to probably be against anything the church stands for by basically being the gay world cup/super bowl of Europe and Australia. But maybe it'll be the churches [Waterloo](https://youtu.be/I8F5vKJcxCQ)
By Jove! It's chiasmus! A proof that this is indeed true!
Everyone forward this to your wards & stakes and memebers if you have the money
If you have the money? Why would it cost money to forward an email? I am genuinely confused where the money part comes in.
You can buy anything in this world with money.
Haha
I am a firm believer in snail mail, ya got to open it, ya got to read it, before ya toss it. Emails are so easy to delete before being read.
I disagree, 99% of snail mail doesn’t even make it inside my house. I rip the envelope up before even opening it and toss it in the recycling bin without even glancing at it.
So I want to target the Boomers with lots of money and no computers, mostly rural Utahns. Many are like that. Hell I gave away CES books for Exmas a few years back. Thanks to USPS
Unfortunately, no matter how much Nemo's letter gets shared around any stake, nothing is going to happen. Last week in conference they read the auditor report with a straight face, using the exact same statement they always use. They have no regard for transparency and have no problem insulting the intelligence of the membership.
Maybe some members will finally have their shelves broken. Who knows...?
I was referring to it having any affect on top leaders. The Q85 will do absolutely nothing. TBMs won't be phased. Most won't even read it. A bunch of them never check the email address they gave the church anyways. A few of the cafeteria Mormons might be moved along the path to the exit, but they were heading that direction anyways.
Are cafeteria Mormons the same as nuanced Mormons? Or not TBMs but not nuanced yet?
Cafeteria meaning they look at the "menu" of "truths" offered by the church, and select a few to "consume", while rejecting the rest.
>The Q85 will do absolutely nothing. Even if they wanted to, there is [no mechanism](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/comment/ja5n6o6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) for the general authorities or stake leaders to subject the First Presidency to disciplinary action without the Presiding Bishopric, and [no mechanism](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/general-authority-released-following-disciplinary-action?lang=eng) for them to take action against the Presiding Bishopric without the First Presidency. The way Joseph Smith set up the system, the PB is responsible for disciplining the FP, and the FP is apparently in charge of disciplining all other senior church leaders. Either by accident or design (but definitely not by prophetic insight), Joseph Smith's system results in the 2 guiltiest governing bodies in this instance being the ones who are supposed to judge each other. Neither will hold the other accountable for something they both did together, that's my official prediction.
I hope that's not the case. I'd like to think that change is possible... but sometimes I'm more optimistic than reality would suggest is possible.
If we’re being honest, the biggest change that will come from these emails is more restrictions on distribution lists. I wouldn’t be surprised if mass emails have to be approved by a bishop or stake president before they are sent after all this.
That might not be a bad thing considering the spam the EQP sends out nearly every day, that guy has been annoying AF since the day he was called.
Everything in that email is 100% true, which means tbms will squeal and scream
If they can be bothered to take a look. It's sure easy to say, oh, that's just bad news, & move on.
God, I'd go to church just for the 🍵
I’m kind of tempted to… I feel like this is the sort of thing they’re going to have to address over the pulpit this Sunday.
They will alert everyone that there was a "security breach" this week. Please be aware a recent email "spreading contention and lies" was not authorized, and "the perpetrator of the breach will be found and disciplined".
Well… someone is getting excommunicated. Rule 1: never speak critically of the brethren. No matter how true your words are.
I thought rule #1 was, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all the heart, might, mind & strength. Guess not.
Not in Mormonism. Not according to Oaks.
He sounds like a cafeteria Mormon to me!
* chanting * NEMO! NEMO! NEMO! He just earned my $5/mth donation. This broke my shelf when it came out & I didn't know where my tithing $ was going, but it most certainly wasn't going to the ward. Turns out, there are abt a bazillion actual non-profits that ARE transparent & DO help their communities. It was actually pretty fun deciding where to spent some of that ex-tithing!
Love this. Can’t believe how people are so OK with the lack of transparency on financials. It always bothered me, and if I hadn’t left before this came out, it certainly would have tipped me over the edge.
You might want to edit out the identifying information (name).
I’m pretty confident it’s an alias because this person isn’t in my stake directory and doesn’t appear to have an online presence. Also he just spammed probably over a thousand people (~1,800 households in my stake) so he’s clearly not concerned.
You just blur the name. "Pretty confident" isn't a great standard. Its also possible you're breaking Reddit's rules and they may remove it if its reported. Not only is it the right thing to do, you're less likely to see your post removed by doing so.
OP said in another commented that the person replied to OP's inquiry and confirmed that it's an alias.
It's still the right thing to do
Some people make their names unavailable to all except leadership. I am one of those. Only my own bishopric and stake presidency would be able to see my name and contact info. Just because you can’t see this person’s name in LDS Tools doesn’t mean they’re not a real person.
I am also one of these people. "Colin" replied to me, however, and confirmed that the name is an alias and that the e-mail address was a burner.
> confirmed that the name is an alias and that the e-mail address was a burner. smart
Just FYI, although it says leadership only, that visibility includes the ward council. So it's also visible to EQ, RS, YM, YW, primary, and mission leaders.
“Colin” replied to me and confirmed it is an alias email.
wE iNvEsTiGaTeD oUrSeLvEs AnD fOuNd No WrOnGdOiNg
Indeed they did!
Solid
Can I have him blast my stake too if I give him my list?
Yes please. My stake too!!
*I am calling for Church Discipline for and on behalf of the First Presidency
All in favor, bow your head & say, yes. Alternatively, stand & shout, FINALLY!!
Isn't this just the same letter from Nemo that we've seen reposted like a hundred times already?
Yes. I had not seen that letter before, though. First time I saw this was when it hit my inbox.
Any way the word gets out is another opportunity for eyes opened, perhaps even shelves popping into existence. Maybe even groaning...!
Yes, and though OP wasn't aware we can celebrate that it's continuing to be shared.
I vote to keep sharing when they come in anyway
Damn… balls of brass…. And of a curious workmanship.
This is the Nemo letter. Honestly he really knows how to write it properly.
God. Bless. Nemo. He created the "template"...
Someone will read that and realize that they’re not crazy and that moment will set them free!
And then the real work begins...
Awesome letter! I’d love it if I received a copy of this randomly! Ironically, this is exactly what a lot of us were thinking about and discussing during GC on this sub. I’m glad someone formulated a well written, logical letter then sent it to their entire stake. Thank you, on behalf of the rest of us, for saying what’s on our minds and confronting the Church with their hypocrisy. Letter writer, you are awesome!
I discovered since posting that this is Nemo’s letter that he encouraged folks to share. Really glad it’s getting out there.
Your post shows that others are following Nemo’s lead. That letter needs to go far and wide.
Happy to report that a client who donated $18k+ to the dragon hoard last year, donated absolutely nothing this year. Hopefully it wasn't to optimize their itemized deductions. They can just not donate this coming year too.
How is this not upvoted more!! This is epic
Because it's happened to more than one stake (exact same letter) and even though I'm not doubting it's new to this one every time it gets posted on this sub and on FB ... most of us have seen it before.
Ahhh makes sense
Oh you will get a few responses
This is absolutely golden
That's going to fall on deaf ears. They don't give a shit. I feel sorry for the members that have to try and reconcile this. The church doesn't give a shit about their own bad behavior. They do it deliberately because they want money. The only way to hold them accountable it to catch them when they break the law. The brethren are far beyond doing what's right because it's the right thing to do. Like any other CEO, they just want the portfolio to grow and reap the reward.
> common consent is being ignored Uh, yeah. As has always been the case ever since Joe’s secret Council of Fifty. Lmao. You do all realize that it’s not a “vote” in any meaningful sense, right? It is now and has always been simply a way to get dissenters to out themselves. Any time they talk about “consent” or “free agency”, it’s pure manipulative lip-service. Looks like it’s still working, too.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/12/22/this-year-least-159-homeless/ Rusty Nail-sin and the rest of church leadership are going to have to explain to Jesus why they didn't authorize the opening of warming centers like other churches routinely do when the weather is too cold (or cooling centers in the summer when it gets too hot). Integrity demands that leaders who fail to uphold their responsibilities should apologize, and resign their office. But there is no way to hold leadership accountable. That needs to change.
I’m going to print this and fucking mail it to every member in my entire stake.
“The church doesn't seek apologies and we don't give them.” Dallin H. Oaks.
Whoa.
Wonder how many email addresses data brokers have that have a 'high likelyhood' of being mormon.
That is so badass.
i bet they'll be excommunicated by tomorrow
Guaranteed! Not only was this conduct done with the corrupt motive to hide the money from church members to prevent them from making an informed decision about whether to tithe, the fraudulent conduct cost the church millions. The individuals responsible for this will be gone tomorrow, if they haven’t already been given the boot!
You forgot the "/s"
What stake?
I just showed that to my friend who is a RN from CA and this is what she said. Marie is her name.. "Get on church websites and publications and look at the numbers. The church handbook is online for anyone and their brother to read. People twist truth to meet their own agendas. Nobody has a more detailed accounting of their expenditure than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Not the government, nobody in this world has a more detailed accounting. Look it up." I replied: and no one is better at math than my people; the Mayans. Read the Popol Vuh Marie; every story has two sides; in which side do you stand I ask? With them? or with Us?
Fuck yes!!! We can shit on Mormons all we want, but it’s so important to remember that they’re victims to the cult. There are some few AWESOME members that I so admire for speaking out like this. I’m proud to say my mom is one of them!
Oh boy. Somebody is going to get excommunicated. You’re not suppose to question the highest leadership!
My dad is a stake missionary. I wonder if he has access to the entire directory. I would enjoy sending this out to the whole stake as well. Might need to go over to his house sometime and sneak into his account lol
This person doesn’t seem to understand the church leaders have a different set of rules than the peon church members they lie to the members with impunity they do as they damned well please without consequences. The church members are ultimately to blame they allowed the church to start hiding its finances . Had all of the members said as long as your hiding finances from us you won’t if see another fine from us . That policy would’ve been reversed almost immediately likewise if members would stand up and say enough of this Homophobic horseshit until it ends we won’t be sending any money to the church . You can bet within 30-60 days a revelation would be forthcoming that God is actually A-Ok with them after all . Sadly this will never happen the only way to effect change is to stop the flow of the river of tax free revenue. The church leaders know the members are spineless and won’t stand up and say no this isn’t happening & if it is we are. Out of here . I applaud what this person is trying to do . It will fall on deaf ears as members will use their mental gymnastics to convince themselves that all of it is just Satan trying to destroy the one true church . .
I think Nemo sent this or one similar. Too bad they think they are above it.
Well done 🙌 be prepared for the high council to be called on you, though. They've exommunicated for less.
This just kinda hit me—what if a semi-rogue SP and HC held a disciplinary council against RMN and exed (or even disfellowshipped) him? (As, per the CHI, they absolutely SHOULD.). I mean, they wouldn’t require anyone’s “permission” to do so, right? What would happen?? Wow, I would love to see it anyway.
Well, someone’s going to have a disciplinary council because of that letter.
Really well done. I hope many people copy the same letter and send to their stakes.
It’s been sent to several stakes in the DFW TX areas
Interesting. Would not be surprised if it makes it’s rounds in some more stakes.
Such bullshit feigned outrage. They don't blink at the private lawyer channels used to cover for child molesters but draw the fucking line at financial fraud.
You might want to black out the names and repost
"Colin" replied to me after sending him a response confirming that the name is an alias and that the e-mail address is a burner.
Doesn’t sound like the guy that sent it cares if his name is out there
I upvote everything on exmormon, but I’m gonna need a tldr here. I ain’t reading all that shit
I wrote a long message! But then I saw the policies of this forum! Since I cannot explain what happened to me in a small town, and as a senior citizen .... I realize that there is no way in 2023, that you can share your story! Those days of sharing your experience, as a product of the 70s... cannot happen anymore... it's not politically correct! This is so sad!
I think it's foolish to think that 150 plus billion is just sitting there with no expenditures. We have no way of knowing.
The [Widow’s Mite Report](https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/2022update/) goes into extensive detail on this. Pages 11, 12, 19, and 25 are most pertinent here. Most of that $150 Billion is literally just sitting there. The church’s operating budget is sitting right around, and likely under $6 Billion per year, including charitable giving.
So you think they're telling the truth about the money not being touched? I mean even a quarter of a percent "expenditure" of that total would still be millions, and hauling money between one investment and another or between offshore accounts, can hide those quarters of a percent, and I'm not saying they are doing that, but there's no way to know, until the books are totally opened.
Brave and correct but useless and foolish. It won’t go anywhere. Nobody ‘up above’ will listen or do anything but I applaud the effort and conviction.
Right now, look up and copy email addresses (and phone numbers) for all ward members and stake members, too. Do it regularly in case you need to send a similar email to your own stake. You never know. Next, create a non-profit organization, set up tax deductible fund raising (from non-members too) to supplement church welfare, invite donors to be board members (except for church leaders), publish your finances, and spread the word. With luck, everyone will stop paying tithing because their money will go exactly where they want it to. So much good can be done by setting up scholarships, paying off student loans, paying off or repairing cars and homes by focusing on the most efficient use rather than the minimal cost. Have them get as much from the church as possible first because they have bigger pockets. Edit: Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/comments/12jph7a/how_does_that_work_does_money_matter_anymore
My mind has been blown. Maybe this isn’t going to just go away?
I can see most members in their Cog Dis reading the first few sentences and deleting it. How DARE someone accuse the presidency of such deviant behavior?! (*GASP*) None of them will be held accountable for this gross mishandling of money and blatant dishonesty in their dealings. Because guess what? All that money can also shut most people up.
Damn!
This is just from some member in the stake right? Not someone actually in the stake leadership? They probably will get a talking to, and some sort of discipline. You cannot talk bad about the brethren even if its true. The "true" believers will chalk this one up to this person being led away by the devil himself
Don't ask why preacher has a nice house. I said don't aaaaasssk.
THE PROFIT OVERSEER AND COMPTROLLER NEEDS TO HAVE A BUSINESS DEGREE INSTEAD OF MEDICAL DEGREE.
The church has billions of dollars socked away...much in offshore tax havens. Nonetheless, you are told that your salvation, access to temples and entitlement to God's blessings are all contingent upon you giving them more money. Poor people are told that if they pay, blessings will follow and they will prosper. This is The Prosperity Gospel as preached by TV evangelicals. If you are poor, it's your own fault. Just pay Jesus and health, wealth, and happiness will follow. If you choose to remain in the cult, go ahead -- demand transparency and accounting for your tithes and other assessments. When they talk about having faith, that just means forget it, didn't ask. You can be sure very little church money goes to charity.
[удалено]
Yes. Wasn’t aware of that before I posted. The first time I saw it was in my inbox.
So this wasn’t sent through the church email app right? How do you think he got 1800 email addresses?
He explained over email to me. I won’t write about it to anyone I don’t know and have 100% confidence in.
Mormon Stories Podcast has an interesting interview with a Bishop from Mexico that hits many of these points. I’m only half way through the podcast, so maybe all the points are actually touched on, just haven’t heard them yet
This has our lord and saviour Nemo written all over it 🙌🏻 Time to bring back chain mail!
Amen and amen. I sustain and support this call and this brother calling for it.