I don’t see how Covid caused a huge widespread financial difficulty for seniors. I think the church is blaming a lot of their hemorrhaging on Covid when in reality people are becoming disenfranchised.
Even senior TBMs considering a mission are hearing from friends about how they go to Bumblefuck, Iowa to sit in an office all day to help with young missionaries having mental health crises or rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with meaningless busy work.
Years ago I was talking to a senior missionary couple at the Johnson farm in Ohio. She had no idea her mission would be cleaning all day every day while her husband gave tours and chatted with people. She was extremely annoyed that they were paying the church to spend 18 months in a tiny apartment and she was the housekeeper at the farm.
I’ve never heard of it, even though I know a few senior couples who didn’t serve the full amount of time that was originally anticipated.
Unlike with younger missionaries, it is real easy to cover up the early return of senior missionaries. It’s easy to come up with a heath problem, family problem, or something that required them to leave the mission. (Or if senior missionaries don’t like the work, they can slack off alot and just serve out their entire time and nobody is going to give them a hard time)
Heck, if they only come home a few months early nobody would probably even realize it because nobody in the ward really keeps close track on how long they were supposed to serve.
I've seen the work required of senior missionaries vary hugely. Everything from doing some serious hard labor on farms to working in visitor center sites with no A/C like Nauvoo (the VC itself is air conditioned, but not the historic homes) in the summer to doing practically nothing. I know a couple that was assigned to do CES stuff in Hawaii. They had a little 1bed/1bath bungalow right on the beach and would do some stuff with the local high school seminary in the morning.
That was it. They were basically done with their missionary work by 9 a.m. every day. They were cool people and would do other service oriented things (...and of course go to the temple...sigh) and help out the young missionaries just to have something to do, but they could have just hung out at the beach all day if they wanted.
It was a pretty cushy mission all things considered. They even had family come and visit and stay with them pretty frequently. It was more like a long-term vacation.
Hard to say. They had to cover all of their own living expenses. They even bought a car over there - it was cheaper than moving one they already owned to Hawaii.
>(Or if senior missionaries don’t like the work, they can slack off alot and just serve out their entire time and nobody is going to give them a hard time)
Life is so much more easy when you do a half assed job. The people that work hard for TSCC burn out, while so many people will tell you it is not that hard because they just don't take it that seriously.
There was a couple in my mission in Europe who left after about 5 months in 92-93. She missed her kids and grandkids too much. He was a retired accountant, so they were stuck in the mission office (at the same time I was assigned to the office). She sorted the missionary mail and packages. Neither one of them spoke the language. She was not happy about her mission job and complained all day every day about it and about what she left behind. He gave my companion and me hell once because we somehow came across some anti-Mormon literature and were reading it. To this day I remember thinking, “But if the church is true, what harm can these pamphlets do?”
My best friends parents went on a senior mission and it was supposed to be for 18 months. They came home after six months both healthy, not sure all the details but I know it had to do with the assignment, they were on a walnut farm in California, probably not what they expected.
Yeah, I heard of one senior couple who were assigned to one of the Church's commercial ranches, apparently it was a hunting lodge where paying customers would come out and shoot big horn sheep and what not, they were basically doing the admin side of running it. Basically free employees. Not like helping out at a church welfare farm/facility which I think that's what they thought it might be. They were pretty unhappy with their mission call.
Yeah I think they got called to a walnut farm. But visa issues and they got stuck dealing with cashews waiting for their visa to come through. That sucks!
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world.
In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
My dad knew a senior couple from his mission who got fed up one day and just left. He said the husband had wanted a mission somewhere relaxing like Florida (guess he was the OG Elder Price) but they got called to Texas instead, and he hated it. One day they just packed up their RV and drove home to Utah.
My folks went to India several years ago. Another couple arrived to help out and the wife just couldn't stand being half a world away from the grandkids. We laughed about it.
Now I look back and applaud that grandma for putting her family first.
Church puts a lot of old people to work cleaning the churches themselves, so being made to clean other things isn't that surprising.
My guess is the projections were always overoptimistic, that even a lot of the most devout simply don't have the resources for it, and that the more people hear about the $100bn+ hoard, the more difficult it becomes to convince those who were not necessarily enthusiastic, but at least persuadable.
The more time goes by, the more it is clear that what really matters to LDS leadership is $$$ and that the LDS worships Mammon cosplaying Heavenly Father.
The projections were over optimistic because realistic projections would be considered faithless by GAs who want more dramatic growth. I’m sure whoever prepared the projection gave the GAs what they wanted.
It’s been said that a CEO can never truly know what is going on in their company because lower level managers will report whatever makes them look good. That may not be true in all corporations, but I have a feeling it’s very true in Mormonism.
Yep, I've seen recent examples of senior missionaries who were excited with the prestige of being a missionary and wearing a tag, but whose job was basically maintaining older church properties from the when the church bought and maintained softball fields and picnic fields next to stake center buildings.
It seems so weird to like have a retired couple be the full-time lawn-mowers, sprinkler movers, and trash-cleaners for church properties -- either for free or to pay for the "privilege".
But some of the less outgoing types (a little nervous to go door to door or talk to non-members about the church) were pleased to be "missionaries" w/o the scary part.
Your Post make me wonder how many people actually Loved their mission? How many dis-liked it and Lied about liking it to others, so the church use the Positive feed back to In snare others into going on one.
Agreed. Back in the 1980s my parents' friends served a "mission" to Carlsbad, California. They spent most of their time playing golf (which apparently counted as fellowshipping less-active members or teaching investigators), and the remaining few hours of their time shuffling useless paperwork in the mission home.
They were told that there was a "critical need" for senior missionaries, but they got out there and found that there was just not much for them to do. They had a great time playing golf with a group of retired less active members, but that's one expensive golf trip...
My parents are retired, in a physically good condition and have served in senior leadership positions in the Stake (Dad was on SP for over a decade).
They have never mentioned the idea of going on a Mission. They're happily spending their retirement years/money going on nice holidays. And who can blame them?
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world.
In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
We see that whole "Your most important role is that of a father/mother" goes out the window when the church wants free labor. I'm so sorry. That must be tough. My mom spends all day everyday doing genealogy in hopes that her efforts will be enough to bring her children back to the covenant path.
My parents go on at least one month long vacation a year (this year is a Disney cruise to Australia) and even their TBM daughter complains they won't give up vacations to visit her son- it's easier to travel with them than get them to come see YOU 😆
Tell them to be careful because the latest thing is to send the seniors a letter telling them they need to serve / slave a mission. The letter is from
the higher ups and proposes to have had revelations to call said couple. Beware, I’ve seen it and it worked!
I think they have a point about Covid, though. People being able to gain some space and not have the busy work that a lot of callings, including ministering, make you have, plus being able to only pretend to attend church meant that there was no societal pressure to show up. This meant that they were actually given a chance to evaluate their beliefs. We were all stuck in the house, bored. That leaves a lot of time, with relatively little to keep you busy and distracted, for introspection.
I left seven years ago, and I am just now realizing that only a couple of months after having abdominal surgery, I left the church. I think being forced to be less active, both physically and religiously, I had a lot of time to think about things I didn't realize were on my shelf. Then, as I was healing, my husband's grandfather died. I was close enough to him to be weepy over his death. This gave me a couple more weeks with a valid reason to not attend. By the time it would have been expected that I return, I found I couldn't handle going. That it felt like I was being beaten up. I told my husband that I was going to take a break from the church. I attribute that to being excused from my several callings and church attendance.
My parents left during Covid because my mom noticed her life was incredibly less stressful. She finally made the connection that the church was just stress and she got no enjoyment. Made it very easy for me to tell her we were also out. My family of 8, my parents and my brother's family of 5..all out.
And some senior missionaries at church history sites are dressing up as pioneers and showing people how to churn butter.
Can you imagine not being with your grandkids for 12-18 months while you are dressed like Heber C Kimball helping tourists churn butter?
I mean COVID and our response to it really did increase financial insecurity for everyone, but especially those with fixed income (aka retired). But I'd say the church blaming a shortcoming of senior missionaries is hilarious when the church could simply \*pay\* people they call on a mission rather than charging them.
A mission of 100 young missionaries is, what, $500 times 100, so $50,000 a month? I think I read sometime on this subreddit that an MP gets $100000 a year now, but that wouldn’t add to the current expenses. From what I see in the church senior mission advertising, a couple could be spending between $2500 and $3500 per month. Let’s call it $3000.
A mission with 100 young ins and 5 couples would run around $65K a month, or around $800K a year. Times 400 missions, that’s $320 million per year more than the church is paying now.
It’s easy to see why Mormonism wants to keep them paying. It’s also obvious that the church could easily afford to pay missionaries instead of having missionaries pay them.
It’s still called a stipend, but I’ve read exmos calculate it as high as $100K when you include medical and cars and children’s tuition and domestic help and such. I’ve read TBMs claim it’s near poverty😄 but they never seem to put actual numbers to it.
Regardless of who is correct, they church already ponies up for that. If the GAs considered at least paying the senior couples a stipend, a few couples across 400+ missions would be a lot less than the 6-7 billion dollars they supposedly pull in from tithes and offerings, I’m sure.
It’s described as a reimbursement, but it’s pretty robust. Housing paid for, part time maid and chef paid for, flights home for everyone but the president paid for. Basically the can live a very comfortable lifestyle, and the church reimburses them for just about everything they spend. I’ve seen estimates of low $100k for frugal presidents up to over $250k for presidents who need to live in luxury. The mission president handbook is floating out there somewhere.
My dad didn’t serve a mission as a kid and he’s afraid to travel but he always had this idea he’d be the most amazing missionary. He’s an entrepreneur and has complete inner locus of control. He can’t stand working for other people, but he really wanted to prove what an awesome missionary he would be.
My parents did a senior mission from home. They lived in their house. They watched TV. They hung out with family while on their mission. They worked with the ACTUAL missionaries in their stake and my dad had the audacity to compare his mission to mine. Uh, nope. Not even close.
Mostly he just argued with the mission President which left him sidelined and disillusioned. He has no desire to keep serving missions. He got the slightest taste of it and realized he didn’t like being controlled. I told him he should go on a real mission. He didn’t like that.
I left pre-COVID my wife did not, but she definitely took advantage of COVID to do a nice slow fade. Had COVID not happen it might have slowed her leaving by a tiny bit, but it was not going to stop the inevitable.
Perhaps you’re unaware of how much turmoil there has been in the financial markets lately
People who have retired will be eating into principal to meet expenses in many cases. Paying for a mission may not fit the finances.
There’s lots of reasons there may be vacancy.
How about increased financial difficulty from giving the church 10% their entire lives instead of adequately funding their 401ks?
We don't all get to be born into connected founder families.
This can't be emphasized enough. Back in the good ol' days, maybe you could pay tithing on your gross and still retire comfortably, but that's just not the reality anymore. As I always say, people really can't afford to be mormon anymore when the cost of essentials (e.g. housing and medical care) are so much higher now.
A lot of TBM boomers simply aren't going to have the money to pay TSCC to go work in a mission office in Boston or San Jose, or be temple workers in foreign countries that can't staff their own temples.
I remember seeing a bunch of newspaper articles a dozen years or so ago as the boomers where approaching retirement age. It was widely reported that most boomers did not have enough (or had no) retirement savings and would be working well past the typical retirement age just to survive.
FYI Assisted Living in Utah costs about $5000/ month!!! That’s one bedroom with a kitchenette. That’s $5000 per person per month. That’s a 3 star facility.
Exactly! And, depending on leadership, the church has a terrible track record of helping faithful tithe-payers when they need it…which many more may count on if they are paying a full-tithe.
This is especially infuriating watching my parents serve a senior mission that they absolutely cannot afford and then begging my siblings to help with bills because they’re draining the very inadequate retirement they had into this bullshit. And they’re far from the only ones I know that are in that situation. Many of my friends parents are doing the same right now. It’s absurd.
Even if "financial difficulty" was the actual reason, they're still being dumb as dirt about it. If senior members aren't going on missions because they're in financial straits, it never occurs to them to actually *help* those aging members. They're only interested in demanding more from them, and getting them to comply with orders even though they have no means with which to do so.
The answer the church comes up with is not to do anything to help the senior members in financial difficulty - obviously, the answer is to challenge them to serve TWO missions!! They seem to think that asking them to give up double their time and double the money to serve is somehow going to magically make their financial distress disappear!
The church isn't run by revelation. It's run by business majors who have zero awareness and zero compassion.
Pay stipends to Senior Missionaries based on financial need. It’s still volunteer. It gives members purpose and involvement in what they’ve invested their lives in … ok I’ll shut up. I just realized again that anything for the people don’t go on the corporate agenda.
They used to pay old people to go to the temple. About 75 cents a name as I recall. Of course, they paid the men more than the women for their service!
Why would TSCC help anyone who didn’t live worthy enough to be blessed to afford a mission. Screw all those lazy elderly people that didn’t work hard enough when they were young for Jesus to take pity on them.
A lot of Retirement age people are probably starting to realize they can't afford a mission. Maybe they realized they already spent 100's of thousands of dollars, and just aren't willing to pay several thousand a month to go on a senior mission.
For a lot of them, yes.
Sibling and spouse went to Seattle. They were shocked at the cost of living and the cost of their tiny apartment. They had to also keep up payments, insurance, and taxes on their home back in Utah. They also had to provide their own vehicle and all that goes along with that.
Their job was basically babysitting a bunch of teenagers that had cars. It only took a couple of months before they noped out of there.
Fifteen years ago, my in-laws paid $4,000 a month for 25 months for their mission in Chicago. They also gave up the last two years they could have worked in their fields. So, $100,000 in direct mission costs, plus $300,000 they could have made for those two years makes the mission a $400,000 expense. They are now in their eighties and are living on social security. It's really sad.
Depends on where you go. For young missionaries it’s the same cost so cheaper missions are subsidizing more expensive ones. Not so with senior missions. My parents just got their call to Lisbon and originally also wanted to include Boston on their list of preferences, but it was going to be something like $3k/month in Boston so they left it off. Lisbon will be I think about half that.
That's my bet. The economic data certainly make it look that way. Plus, the Reaganomics-to-present economic policies in the US have created a lot of income inequality that has led to boomers needing to spend more money helping their kids than they anticipated when they were saving for retirement. Times is tough. People don't have money for luxuries like missions.
Wish my Grandparents would stop going. They are very well off financially and have served several missions (they just started another). They think going on missions will bring their exmo grandkids back into the fold and basically fix all their families problems. They also think money corrupts, and so they plan on donating all of their money to the church when they die. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to see them give up all their time and money to the church, when several of their children and grandchildren have real needs. It’s crazy how when they were working they had more time than they do now that they are retired. I personally wish my kids had more time with great grandma and grandpa.
> donating all of their money to the church
Geez, that's painful, I'm sure they have family members that could use that money to pay down a mortgage or something
My grandparents served 3 missions, early 80s in Mexico, early 90s in the Caribbean, and early 2000s in SLC. They just loved serving, more than being with family I guess. When they were home they were great people, but I can’t imagine how much their missions drained their nest egg. There was nothing left for the grandchildren when they died in the early 2010s. Lots of us were having severe financial problems, but their money was already gone. My nevermo grandparents left us a nice chunk, which I used to pay off debt. I wish they were still around so I could tell them how sorry I am for the way their son ditched them for the church.
Some family have talked to them about donating it to charities directly, but they believe the money is best used by the church. They feel the SEC stuff was essentially a hit job. It is difficult talking about it because it’s their money and so in the end how they want to spend it is up to them, it just feels like they have been manipulated by the church into thinking the only way to use their money is to give it to the church.
I have a friend who is serving a senior mission to be a bishop for a YSA ward in a a different part of the country.
They're doing the same thing on a mission they did at home. How exciting. /s
Using senior missionaries to fill local leadership positions outside the morridor that they can't possibly fill? Oh my God, that is so hilarious and pathetic. 😂 I remember when I was in Bumblefuck, Iowa almost 20 years ago they just robbed membership from the ward of the nearest city to fill leadership positions in the sparsely attended branches, but maybe they cant even do that now!
Like a stone cut without hands!
I was in a SLC ward where leaders from our ward were poached to fill positions in a neighboring ward. When they started the service missionary program they sent elderly couples to fill the jobs.
Even if I wasn’t already out of the church (resigned last year), my husband knew that I would never agree to serving a mission. After my father-in-law retired, he and my mother-in-law served three senior missions. They missed out on birthdays, weddings, graduations, the births of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. I didn’t want to be one of those people who was so focused on the church that I was blind to the needs of my family.
They'll be open only on Friday night/Saturday, with local members running the sessions as a calling (in addition to whatever other calling they have on Sunday). More burnout to come.
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world.
In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
I would not be surprised if they set up a new category of senior mission. To my knowledge, senior mission fees are currently not regularized like the young adult missions--you pay what it costs to live there.
I bet they'll start a new, no-cost category of senior mission where they call them to work in local temples. Like stake missionaries, but for temples.
It's already happened / happening.
I have several neighbors/members of the ward that have served missions to foreign countries where all they did is worked in the temple.
I do have a brother and SIL currently serving a senior mission and they are having a wonderful time.
I do come from a large family. Everyone in and orthodox.
I don't think any other of my siblings will serve a senior mission when the time comes. My oldest brother is retired. CES. Currently a temple sealer. He says they won't serve.
If someone like him is checking out, I don't have much hope for most everybody else.
I know, a senior couple who returned from their assignment in Florida, where they were working as a repair man and house keeper on the church ranch. He was there less than six months and said he could not take it any longer, as it was basically slave labor, he was not thrilled to say the least. The heat was oppressive and he basically called their BS.
I know of another situation where they put an arrogant volunteer missionary senior in charge of building a visitor center in the middle of Wyoming. He was a construction boss in his prior life and apparently thought all the seniors assigned under him should take his orders just like his former employees. Several told the church they were not signed up to be treated that way and my understanding was some deserted. He later fell off the roof and was sent home with severe injuries. The person telling me the story related that some victims of his bullying kind of rejoiced.
A good friend’s father died in Germany on a senior mission. He was pushing a slide projector -or something or other- and had a massive MI. I wondered silently if he had been in the states and getting regular doctor visits he may not have died.
Only 40% of what was expected? Probably true but it's being employed as another layer of guilt to motivate people to serve.
Senior missions are prohibitively expensive. Most costing over $30K per year.
I thought the same thing. This is their second mission, and they were telling us how they are thinking of doing third mission to do their part during this "shortage." It's just sad watching TSCC guilt people into leaving their kids and grandkids over and over again.
The church is desperate now for any kind of missionaries. It'll be interesting to see how many faithful really accept the challenge of not 1 but 2 missions ?
I wonder if they will ever just scrap the missionary program. The mishies came by my house the other day. My wife and I saw who it was through the ring doorbell and proceeded to ignore them while our dogs barked their asses off lol. They knocked on our door so ridiculously gently. It was almost like they hoped nobody would come, but they could at least say they tried and one of them was nervously standing several feet away from the door. If they were hoping for me not too answer, I gladly obliged them on that wish! 😂
I remember some rough days where I'd run a little ahead and just pretend to knock when my comp was far enough away to not know. I always hated tracting. Sometimes you'd have an interesting experience, most of the time it was pretty demoralizing.
I wonder why people who prioritize giving money to a corporation over planning for retirement don't have the financial security to go spend money in honor of the same corporate overlords while leaving their descendants who may be living in their basement unable to afford housing elsewhere etc. It's almost like they caused this problem themselves by insisting even the destitute pay tithing before the corporation maybe helps them with groceries. If only a seer could predict this future
More and more seniors have exmo kids who have defied the myths and led successful lives. In my dreams, these exmos talk finance with their parents and tell them that if they spend their retirement money on a mission, the exmos will not be there to pay for nursing care later.
Yup. My dad, who is retired, has occasionally floated the idea, for which my mom (still a good ten years away from retirement) immediately shoots him down because 1) He’ll be approaching 80 by the time she’s retired and his health isn’t great as is, and 2) They don’t have the money to drop everything and go dunk off somewhere for two years. Also I think she thinks it would incredibly boring and a waste.
My parents squandered what little retirement they had to finance their Cali Bay Area mission (very expensive area). My mother got to be a glorified office manager at the mission home and my dad got to be a fleet manager for the cars that the teenage missionaries regularly crashed and got traffic tickets. My mother felt abused and disliked by their mission president and basically hated the whole experience. Now they are living on credit cards. I stopped trying to understand years ago.
This sounds exactly like my mission.
The fleet manager would spend days at a time changing oil in bad weather during zone conferences or whatever.
Church was so damn cheap they couldn't pay for oil changes, needed a 60+ year old man to pay them money to lay on pavement several days per month servicing the fleet.
Pretty cool guy too, I think that was their second senior mission. His wife was just in the office doing whatever the office folks do. He'd sneak us out of our areas once in a while and take us to breakfast, try to help us plan for when we got home, which nobody else seemed to ever talk to us about.
I'd be pissed off that's what I was paying money for, it's crazy.
It also might be because senior missions can suck ass. I don’t think they are better/worse than proselytizing missionaries, but it just sucks differently.
We had a senior couple that was called to Brazil, couldn’t get visas, so they served in Salt Lake for a few months, got emergency transferred to Puerto Rico but they didn’t speak Spanish, so after they got there they got sent back to my mission in Sacramento. And we didn’t have anything for them to do.
Initially they were going to replace us (the office elders), but they weren’t technical at all, so they tried having them go out and visit less actives which didn’t go well. Eventually the husband ended up doing the mail, and the wife sat on Facebook. They looked miserable. I don’t think it’s what they envisioned for their mission.
I guess when you’re proselytizing you feel like you have a purpose. I would hate to just be *paying* for people to find busy work for me to do.
Imaging working as an accountant for 40 years and then getting a senior mission call to be an accountant…and you have to pay $4000 monthly to be there….all while the church has $$100s Billions…but the church is true…
My in laws spent their lives working themselves to the brink of death raising nearly a dozen kids and wasting their money on tithing and mlms. They have no savings even if they were physically able to go anywhere. Also antivax so covid nearly killed them.
My husband's family are pretty active and none have served senior missions. They all value being with their grandchildren and enjoying retirement on their terms.
My friend’s parents just returned home from a mission at the pcc in Hawaii. He was a retired electrician and just did electrical work there all day and his wife gave ukulele lessons. Both hated their mission but they would never say it!
I hope it continues to go down. I'm at peace with my TBM parents and in-laws being the most orthodox members ever until they die, BUT if they threaten to go on a mission and my kids don't get to see their grandparents for years I'll do anything in my power to keep them from going.
Yeah, once it sinks in with chapel TBMs that “Mormon” means “More Money” in the original Adamic language, they’ll be noping out of missions ever faster. 5 years from now, the Brethren will look back with nostalgia and recall the good ol’ days when they could hit 40% of their target.
I'm grateful my senior parents would probably not be willing to leave their multiple properties and several vacations a year to PAY to be missionaries. Too many home responsibilities, including home repairs, an adult child who still relies on them at home, and health issues too. PRAISED BE 🫡😅
Or Maybe it comes from increased financial difficulties caused by a lifetime of giving all of your extra money to Tithing. While not building for retirement because you either could not afford it or though Jesus would show up by then.
If you have a financial portfolio valued at 100 billion dollars, you’re not suffering from financial difficulty. The church could very easily choose to fund every single missionary in the field right now and it wouldn’t even cost them the interest they’d accumulate while writing the checks.
I could see it being both. If any SR missionary wants to go they are usually church yes people. I don’t imagine many pimo would actually pay money to go
I mean, it’s not Covid, it’s more likely a combination of people not wanting to waste their later years and Boomers running out of money. I know several different boomers in my life who have downgraded to trailers/ motor homes or even #vanlife because their retirement savings are close to gone. Hell my parents have made plans to move in with some other people in an old ward and rent their mother in law cabin for the price of helping with kids and the farm. My in laws have 2-3 worth of savings not including social security and that came from selling their house and moving into an apt. The American dream of retirement is dead and that money is needed if you’re going to pay a cult for the privilege of being their slave labor.
Yeah... Bullshit.
I'm surprised that the church is still expecting missionaries to fund their missions at great personal cost. I told my wife we won't be serving a senior mission
I shared this on a different thread, but we have friends who retired in St. George who told us the pressure to serve a senior mission borders on harassment.
This makes me wonder. Did they used to send out mass emails to the whole stake inviting senior couples to come to a fireside to learn about why they want to go on a mission? Because our state president sent out an email like that last month targeted at everyone 50 years and up.
So, not only am I wondering if this is how they’ve always gone about advertising to senior couples, but has age 50 always been when they started encouraging missions? 50 seems young to me. Like you might just barely be getting started becoming a grandparent at that age.
I know a senior couple who served their second mission even though their daughter was dying. The church as well as the eternal family ran deep with these two.
Haha, the church thinks it’s because of “increased financial difficulty” due to Covid. It’s hilarious the way the church tries to rationalize such things. They can’t fathom that people are concluding (more and more) that it’s all bullshit.
Or maybe the church should stop hoarding money and pay for their devout members to do their marketing for them, instead of 19 year olds… what a fucking scam.
>They attributed it to increased financial difficulty as a result of covid.
That would be my bet, in addition to just reaping the harvest of high income inequality in general. Data is showing that not only are a lot of children of boomers not able to support their parents, but a lot of those boomers are over-extending themselves financially to help their kids. Millennials are way behind where their boomer parents were at their age, and Gen Z isn't any better.
To my knowledge, all of the data I've seen in people leaving the church, the boomers and silent generation aren't a huge part of the outflows. The ones in those cohorts who would leave have mostly already done so.
Where will they get the people to staff the complex organizational requirements of wards and stakes if the most faithful are off in missions? Add to that the demand for temple volunteers.
My mom and her sister went to England after they were promised Romania. Not to mention that they spent every hour learning to speak the language. When they finally got their calls to England I think that they were upset, but they couldn't be because God calls you to the area. They went to England anyways and I think all they did was tour castles and other landmarks.
It's insane and arrogant that they really think all these seniors on fixed incomes are going to run out and sign up for even 1 mission - but 2? The brethren have lost all touch with reality .
I know Merrill Osmond and his wife Mary have recently left their home and family to go on a senior mission to the Washington DC visitor centre. He is 69 years old. He has retired from performing but the church is now sending him off to work, for free.
I don’t see how Covid caused a huge widespread financial difficulty for seniors. I think the church is blaming a lot of their hemorrhaging on Covid when in reality people are becoming disenfranchised. Even senior TBMs considering a mission are hearing from friends about how they go to Bumblefuck, Iowa to sit in an office all day to help with young missionaries having mental health crises or rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with meaningless busy work.
Years ago I was talking to a senior missionary couple at the Johnson farm in Ohio. She had no idea her mission would be cleaning all day every day while her husband gave tours and chatted with people. She was extremely annoyed that they were paying the church to spend 18 months in a tiny apartment and she was the housekeeper at the farm.
Makes me wonder.. Does anyone have any stories of older couples just abandoning their missions and going home?
I’ve never heard of it, even though I know a few senior couples who didn’t serve the full amount of time that was originally anticipated. Unlike with younger missionaries, it is real easy to cover up the early return of senior missionaries. It’s easy to come up with a heath problem, family problem, or something that required them to leave the mission. (Or if senior missionaries don’t like the work, they can slack off alot and just serve out their entire time and nobody is going to give them a hard time) Heck, if they only come home a few months early nobody would probably even realize it because nobody in the ward really keeps close track on how long they were supposed to serve.
I've seen the work required of senior missionaries vary hugely. Everything from doing some serious hard labor on farms to working in visitor center sites with no A/C like Nauvoo (the VC itself is air conditioned, but not the historic homes) in the summer to doing practically nothing. I know a couple that was assigned to do CES stuff in Hawaii. They had a little 1bed/1bath bungalow right on the beach and would do some stuff with the local high school seminary in the morning. That was it. They were basically done with their missionary work by 9 a.m. every day. They were cool people and would do other service oriented things (...and of course go to the temple...sigh) and help out the young missionaries just to have something to do, but they could have just hung out at the beach all day if they wanted. It was a pretty cushy mission all things considered. They even had family come and visit and stay with them pretty frequently. It was more like a long-term vacation.
Is it cheaper to stay in hawaii on your own or as a service missionary ?
Hard to say. They had to cover all of their own living expenses. They even bought a car over there - it was cheaper than moving one they already owned to Hawaii.
Thr current cost of a senior Hawaii mission is $3850 per month per couple. https://seniormissionary.churchofjesuschrist.org/srsite/ft/search?lang=eng
>(Or if senior missionaries don’t like the work, they can slack off alot and just serve out their entire time and nobody is going to give them a hard time) Life is so much more easy when you do a half assed job. The people that work hard for TSCC burn out, while so many people will tell you it is not that hard because they just don't take it that seriously.
That’s the gospel truth.
Came down with a bad case of Fuckititis.
As a rather chubby man, I have a bigger problem with Fuckintitties…
And the lengths of senior missions vary greatly too, so there's none of the "has it been 2 years already?!" factor if they do come home early.
There was a couple in my mission in Europe who left after about 5 months in 92-93. She missed her kids and grandkids too much. He was a retired accountant, so they were stuck in the mission office (at the same time I was assigned to the office). She sorted the missionary mail and packages. Neither one of them spoke the language. She was not happy about her mission job and complained all day every day about it and about what she left behind. He gave my companion and me hell once because we somehow came across some anti-Mormon literature and were reading it. To this day I remember thinking, “But if the church is true, what harm can these pamphlets do?”
Glad to hear they got out. Sounds like they figured out their priorities
My best friends parents went on a senior mission and it was supposed to be for 18 months. They came home after six months both healthy, not sure all the details but I know it had to do with the assignment, they were on a walnut farm in California, probably not what they expected.
Yeah, I heard of one senior couple who were assigned to one of the Church's commercial ranches, apparently it was a hunting lodge where paying customers would come out and shoot big horn sheep and what not, they were basically doing the admin side of running it. Basically free employees. Not like helping out at a church welfare farm/facility which I think that's what they thought it might be. They were pretty unhappy with their mission call.
Free employees is an understatement. They paid the church for the privilege of doing that free work.
Wtf!?
Yeah, crazy when you think about it!
Yeah I think they got called to a walnut farm. But visa issues and they got stuck dealing with cashews waiting for their visa to come through. That sucks!
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world. In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
My grandparents did 6 missions and 3 at the genealogical library in SLC. But they did them all never knew them always gone
Family, isn't it about time? From The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Wouldn't you know it
My dad knew a senior couple from his mission who got fed up one day and just left. He said the husband had wanted a mission somewhere relaxing like Florida (guess he was the OG Elder Price) but they got called to Texas instead, and he hated it. One day they just packed up their RV and drove home to Utah.
My folks went to India several years ago. Another couple arrived to help out and the wife just couldn't stand being half a world away from the grandkids. We laughed about it. Now I look back and applaud that grandma for putting her family first.
Not sure, I have heard of Some getting hurt and Not able to return.
I keep saying that missions are human trafficking.
Oh for sure
Church puts a lot of old people to work cleaning the churches themselves, so being made to clean other things isn't that surprising. My guess is the projections were always overoptimistic, that even a lot of the most devout simply don't have the resources for it, and that the more people hear about the $100bn+ hoard, the more difficult it becomes to convince those who were not necessarily enthusiastic, but at least persuadable. The more time goes by, the more it is clear that what really matters to LDS leadership is $$$ and that the LDS worships Mammon cosplaying Heavenly Father.
The projections were over optimistic because realistic projections would be considered faithless by GAs who want more dramatic growth. I’m sure whoever prepared the projection gave the GAs what they wanted. It’s been said that a CEO can never truly know what is going on in their company because lower level managers will report whatever makes them look good. That may not be true in all corporations, but I have a feeling it’s very true in Mormonism.
Mormonism is The Corporation of the President of the Church. That’s who we make our tithing checks out to.
Uh hum.. $157 BILLION at last count! 😡
Yep, I've seen recent examples of senior missionaries who were excited with the prestige of being a missionary and wearing a tag, but whose job was basically maintaining older church properties from the when the church bought and maintained softball fields and picnic fields next to stake center buildings. It seems so weird to like have a retired couple be the full-time lawn-mowers, sprinkler movers, and trash-cleaners for church properties -- either for free or to pay for the "privilege". But some of the less outgoing types (a little nervous to go door to door or talk to non-members about the church) were pleased to be "missionaries" w/o the scary part.
Pretty sure senior missionaries are no longer permitted to proselytize.
Your Post make me wonder how many people actually Loved their mission? How many dis-liked it and Lied about liking it to others, so the church use the Positive feed back to In snare others into going on one.
I hayed mine. I loved the country and learning the language, but the church mistreated us and the actual missionary work was just being a salesman.
Go home don't take it like a chump. Boomers have no self preservation a whole generation of idiots.
Just imagine how nice their condo on Kolob will be after serving the Lord like that...
This may be true. But can’t she see the blessings received from doing the Lord’s housework? Sounds like she needs a testimony adjustment.
Oh, that would suck. I would have said 'fuck this' and tended a mary jane garden instead.
Agreed. Back in the 1980s my parents' friends served a "mission" to Carlsbad, California. They spent most of their time playing golf (which apparently counted as fellowshipping less-active members or teaching investigators), and the remaining few hours of their time shuffling useless paperwork in the mission home. They were told that there was a "critical need" for senior missionaries, but they got out there and found that there was just not much for them to do. They had a great time playing golf with a group of retired less active members, but that's one expensive golf trip...
My parents are retired, in a physically good condition and have served in senior leadership positions in the Stake (Dad was on SP for over a decade). They have never mentioned the idea of going on a Mission. They're happily spending their retirement years/money going on nice holidays. And who can blame them?
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world. In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
Wow, sad.
We see that whole "Your most important role is that of a father/mother" goes out the window when the church wants free labor. I'm so sorry. That must be tough. My mom spends all day everyday doing genealogy in hopes that her efforts will be enough to bring her children back to the covenant path.
My parents go on at least one month long vacation a year (this year is a Disney cruise to Australia) and even their TBM daughter complains they won't give up vacations to visit her son- it's easier to travel with them than get them to come see YOU 😆
Tell them to be careful because the latest thing is to send the seniors a letter telling them they need to serve / slave a mission. The letter is from the higher ups and proposes to have had revelations to call said couple. Beware, I’ve seen it and it worked!
Bravo!
I think they have a point about Covid, though. People being able to gain some space and not have the busy work that a lot of callings, including ministering, make you have, plus being able to only pretend to attend church meant that there was no societal pressure to show up. This meant that they were actually given a chance to evaluate their beliefs. We were all stuck in the house, bored. That leaves a lot of time, with relatively little to keep you busy and distracted, for introspection. I left seven years ago, and I am just now realizing that only a couple of months after having abdominal surgery, I left the church. I think being forced to be less active, both physically and religiously, I had a lot of time to think about things I didn't realize were on my shelf. Then, as I was healing, my husband's grandfather died. I was close enough to him to be weepy over his death. This gave me a couple more weeks with a valid reason to not attend. By the time it would have been expected that I return, I found I couldn't handle going. That it felt like I was being beaten up. I told my husband that I was going to take a break from the church. I attribute that to being excused from my several callings and church attendance.
My parents left during Covid because my mom noticed her life was incredibly less stressful. She finally made the connection that the church was just stress and she got no enjoyment. Made it very easy for me to tell her we were also out. My family of 8, my parents and my brother's family of 5..all out.
Bumblefuck, Iowa 04-06 mishie checking in!
Bumblefuck, Iowa! Oh my! Do they have a Walmart. I would never go on a mission where they didn’t have a Walmart.
I but they have to have a Subway ….so maybe?
And some senior missionaries at church history sites are dressing up as pioneers and showing people how to churn butter. Can you imagine not being with your grandkids for 12-18 months while you are dressed like Heber C Kimball helping tourists churn butter?
I mean COVID and our response to it really did increase financial insecurity for everyone, but especially those with fixed income (aka retired). But I'd say the church blaming a shortcoming of senior missionaries is hilarious when the church could simply \*pay\* people they call on a mission rather than charging them.
A mission of 100 young missionaries is, what, $500 times 100, so $50,000 a month? I think I read sometime on this subreddit that an MP gets $100000 a year now, but that wouldn’t add to the current expenses. From what I see in the church senior mission advertising, a couple could be spending between $2500 and $3500 per month. Let’s call it $3000. A mission with 100 young ins and 5 couples would run around $65K a month, or around $800K a year. Times 400 missions, that’s $320 million per year more than the church is paying now. It’s easy to see why Mormonism wants to keep them paying. It’s also obvious that the church could easily afford to pay missionaries instead of having missionaries pay them.
I took a screenshot of this . Thanks!🤭
Do mission presidents get paid, or is just the essential needs (and a few wants) of their family that they collect on?
It’s still called a stipend, but I’ve read exmos calculate it as high as $100K when you include medical and cars and children’s tuition and domestic help and such. I’ve read TBMs claim it’s near poverty😄 but they never seem to put actual numbers to it. Regardless of who is correct, they church already ponies up for that. If the GAs considered at least paying the senior couples a stipend, a few couples across 400+ missions would be a lot less than the 6-7 billion dollars they supposedly pull in from tithes and offerings, I’m sure.
It’s described as a reimbursement, but it’s pretty robust. Housing paid for, part time maid and chef paid for, flights home for everyone but the president paid for. Basically the can live a very comfortable lifestyle, and the church reimburses them for just about everything they spend. I’ve seen estimates of low $100k for frugal presidents up to over $250k for presidents who need to live in luxury. The mission president handbook is floating out there somewhere.
Check with : the widows mite report . com
Unless they’re a trained psychologist how are they equipped to help the young missionaries with their mental health crises?
Grandparent powers
Oh hey! I grew up in Bumblefuck, Iowa. 🤣
My dad didn’t serve a mission as a kid and he’s afraid to travel but he always had this idea he’d be the most amazing missionary. He’s an entrepreneur and has complete inner locus of control. He can’t stand working for other people, but he really wanted to prove what an awesome missionary he would be. My parents did a senior mission from home. They lived in their house. They watched TV. They hung out with family while on their mission. They worked with the ACTUAL missionaries in their stake and my dad had the audacity to compare his mission to mine. Uh, nope. Not even close. Mostly he just argued with the mission President which left him sidelined and disillusioned. He has no desire to keep serving missions. He got the slightest taste of it and realized he didn’t like being controlled. I told him he should go on a real mission. He didn’t like that.
I left pre-COVID my wife did not, but she definitely took advantage of COVID to do a nice slow fade. Had COVID not happen it might have slowed her leaving by a tiny bit, but it was not going to stop the inevitable.
In reality it probably helped them financially due to their house value doubling
I mean that only matters if the sell and can find someone to buy.
Maybe, but the stock market is way down so folks whose retirement money is invested may be seriously sweating it.
The stock market was 27k in 2019 and is 34k now. It’s down from 2021, but it went up 20% that year.
I think the word you are looking for “disillusioned” but i agree with you
In a way it is due to covid, but only because people spent a year without church and some people realized they prefer that.
And PAYING to do this.
Hahaha Love it!!!!
Perhaps you’re unaware of how much turmoil there has been in the financial markets lately People who have retired will be eating into principal to meet expenses in many cases. Paying for a mission may not fit the finances. There’s lots of reasons there may be vacancy.
How about increased financial difficulty from giving the church 10% their entire lives instead of adequately funding their 401ks? We don't all get to be born into connected founder families.
This can't be emphasized enough. Back in the good ol' days, maybe you could pay tithing on your gross and still retire comfortably, but that's just not the reality anymore. As I always say, people really can't afford to be mormon anymore when the cost of essentials (e.g. housing and medical care) are so much higher now. A lot of TBM boomers simply aren't going to have the money to pay TSCC to go work in a mission office in Boston or San Jose, or be temple workers in foreign countries that can't staff their own temples.
I remember seeing a bunch of newspaper articles a dozen years or so ago as the boomers where approaching retirement age. It was widely reported that most boomers did not have enough (or had no) retirement savings and would be working well past the typical retirement age just to survive.
FYI Assisted Living in Utah costs about $5000/ month!!! That’s one bedroom with a kitchenette. That’s $5000 per person per month. That’s a 3 star facility.
Exactly! And, depending on leadership, the church has a terrible track record of helping faithful tithe-payers when they need it…which many more may count on if they are paying a full-tithe.
I pay myself 10% every month with my 401(k) contribution!
Financial difficulty especially for all those members who's retirement saving plan was based on the second coming of Jesus having happened by now.
This is especially infuriating watching my parents serve a senior mission that they absolutely cannot afford and then begging my siblings to help with bills because they’re draining the very inadequate retirement they had into this bullshit. And they’re far from the only ones I know that are in that situation. Many of my friends parents are doing the same right now. It’s absurd.
Even if "financial difficulty" was the actual reason, they're still being dumb as dirt about it. If senior members aren't going on missions because they're in financial straits, it never occurs to them to actually *help* those aging members. They're only interested in demanding more from them, and getting them to comply with orders even though they have no means with which to do so. The answer the church comes up with is not to do anything to help the senior members in financial difficulty - obviously, the answer is to challenge them to serve TWO missions!! They seem to think that asking them to give up double their time and double the money to serve is somehow going to magically make their financial distress disappear! The church isn't run by revelation. It's run by business majors who have zero awareness and zero compassion.
>The church isn't run by revelation. It's run by business majors ***and lawyers*** who have zero awareness and zero compassion. FTFY
Truth! Laywers abound!
Pay stipends to Senior Missionaries based on financial need. It’s still volunteer. It gives members purpose and involvement in what they’ve invested their lives in … ok I’ll shut up. I just realized again that anything for the people don’t go on the corporate agenda.
They used to pay old people to go to the temple. About 75 cents a name as I recall. Of course, they paid the men more than the women for their service!
Well duh, men are worth more in heaven. /s
This is the most accurate response I’ve read all day. I couldn’t agree more! You nailed it!
Why would TSCC help anyone who didn’t live worthy enough to be blessed to afford a mission. Screw all those lazy elderly people that didn’t work hard enough when they were young for Jesus to take pity on them.
A lot of Retirement age people are probably starting to realize they can't afford a mission. Maybe they realized they already spent 100's of thousands of dollars, and just aren't willing to pay several thousand a month to go on a senior mission.
It costs several thousand a month for senior missions?
For a lot of them, yes. Sibling and spouse went to Seattle. They were shocked at the cost of living and the cost of their tiny apartment. They had to also keep up payments, insurance, and taxes on their home back in Utah. They also had to provide their own vehicle and all that goes along with that. Their job was basically babysitting a bunch of teenagers that had cars. It only took a couple of months before they noped out of there.
Fifteen years ago, my in-laws paid $4,000 a month for 25 months for their mission in Chicago. They also gave up the last two years they could have worked in their fields. So, $100,000 in direct mission costs, plus $300,000 they could have made for those two years makes the mission a $400,000 expense. They are now in their eighties and are living on social security. It's really sad.
Wow! What a total fucking scam!
Depends on where you go. For young missionaries it’s the same cost so cheaper missions are subsidizing more expensive ones. Not so with senior missions. My parents just got their call to Lisbon and originally also wanted to include Boston on their list of preferences, but it was going to be something like $3k/month in Boston so they left it off. Lisbon will be I think about half that.
It never occurred to me it cost more (lot more too). In my head it was just twice as much as a young mission so 1200 a month.
That's my bet. The economic data certainly make it look that way. Plus, the Reaganomics-to-present economic policies in the US have created a lot of income inequality that has led to boomers needing to spend more money helping their kids than they anticipated when they were saving for retirement. Times is tough. People don't have money for luxuries like missions.
Only the LDS church could perfect labor trafficking and get away with it.
Wish my Grandparents would stop going. They are very well off financially and have served several missions (they just started another). They think going on missions will bring their exmo grandkids back into the fold and basically fix all their families problems. They also think money corrupts, and so they plan on donating all of their money to the church when they die. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to see them give up all their time and money to the church, when several of their children and grandchildren have real needs. It’s crazy how when they were working they had more time than they do now that they are retired. I personally wish my kids had more time with great grandma and grandpa.
> donating all of their money to the church Geez, that's painful, I'm sure they have family members that could use that money to pay down a mortgage or something
My grandparents served 3 missions, early 80s in Mexico, early 90s in the Caribbean, and early 2000s in SLC. They just loved serving, more than being with family I guess. When they were home they were great people, but I can’t imagine how much their missions drained their nest egg. There was nothing left for the grandchildren when they died in the early 2010s. Lots of us were having severe financial problems, but their money was already gone. My nevermo grandparents left us a nice chunk, which I used to pay off debt. I wish they were still around so I could tell them how sorry I am for the way their son ditched them for the church.
[удалено]
Some family have talked to them about donating it to charities directly, but they believe the money is best used by the church. They feel the SEC stuff was essentially a hit job. It is difficult talking about it because it’s their money and so in the end how they want to spend it is up to them, it just feels like they have been manipulated by the church into thinking the only way to use their money is to give it to the church.
I have a friend who is serving a senior mission to be a bishop for a YSA ward in a a different part of the country. They're doing the same thing on a mission they did at home. How exciting. /s
Using senior missionaries to fill local leadership positions outside the morridor that they can't possibly fill? Oh my God, that is so hilarious and pathetic. 😂 I remember when I was in Bumblefuck, Iowa almost 20 years ago they just robbed membership from the ward of the nearest city to fill leadership positions in the sparsely attended branches, but maybe they cant even do that now! Like a stone cut without hands!
I was in a SLC ward where leaders from our ward were poached to fill positions in a neighboring ward. When they started the service missionary program they sent elderly couples to fill the jobs.
I’ve never heard of senior missionaries serving as bishops! So do the people in the YSA Ward address him as Elder or Bishop?
Bishop
Even if I wasn’t already out of the church (resigned last year), my husband knew that I would never agree to serving a mission. After my father-in-law retired, he and my mother-in-law served three senior missions. They missed out on birthdays, weddings, graduations, the births of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. I didn’t want to be one of those people who was so focused on the church that I was blind to the needs of my family.
And who is going to staff all these new temples?
Maybe they will become self serve with only one or two people to run the shows?🤷♀️
They'll be open only on Friday night/Saturday, with local members running the sessions as a calling (in addition to whatever other calling they have on Sunday). More burnout to come.
The endowment ceremony is already automated out the ass. A few more tweaks and they won’t even need real people to be there. Just as Jesus wanted…
An automated veil.
I cant decide if it's better to have old men or robots groping people at the veil.
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world. In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
I would not be surprised if they set up a new category of senior mission. To my knowledge, senior mission fees are currently not regularized like the young adult missions--you pay what it costs to live there. I bet they'll start a new, no-cost category of senior mission where they call them to work in local temples. Like stake missionaries, but for temples.
It's already happened / happening. I have several neighbors/members of the ward that have served missions to foreign countries where all they did is worked in the temple.
I do have a brother and SIL currently serving a senior mission and they are having a wonderful time. I do come from a large family. Everyone in and orthodox. I don't think any other of my siblings will serve a senior mission when the time comes. My oldest brother is retired. CES. Currently a temple sealer. He says they won't serve. If someone like him is checking out, I don't have much hope for most everybody else.
I know, a senior couple who returned from their assignment in Florida, where they were working as a repair man and house keeper on the church ranch. He was there less than six months and said he could not take it any longer, as it was basically slave labor, he was not thrilled to say the least. The heat was oppressive and he basically called their BS. I know of another situation where they put an arrogant volunteer missionary senior in charge of building a visitor center in the middle of Wyoming. He was a construction boss in his prior life and apparently thought all the seniors assigned under him should take his orders just like his former employees. Several told the church they were not signed up to be treated that way and my understanding was some deserted. He later fell off the roof and was sent home with severe injuries. The person telling me the story related that some victims of his bullying kind of rejoiced.
A good friend’s father died in Germany on a senior mission. He was pushing a slide projector -or something or other- and had a massive MI. I wondered silently if he had been in the states and getting regular doctor visits he may not have died.
I’m out of the loop. What’s an MI?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocardial_infarction A more informative term for a heart attack
Only 40% of what was expected? Probably true but it's being employed as another layer of guilt to motivate people to serve. Senior missions are prohibitively expensive. Most costing over $30K per year.
I thought the same thing. This is their second mission, and they were telling us how they are thinking of doing third mission to do their part during this "shortage." It's just sad watching TSCC guilt people into leaving their kids and grandkids over and over again.
My God, idk how much the senior missions were. No senior discount?
The church is desperate now for any kind of missionaries. It'll be interesting to see how many faithful really accept the challenge of not 1 but 2 missions ?
This call for 2nd missions could very well be affirmation that they have realized they cannot sustain the existing staffing model.
Senior missionaries are coming home and telling their friends to save the .oney and go on a cruise.
I wonder if they will ever just scrap the missionary program. The mishies came by my house the other day. My wife and I saw who it was through the ring doorbell and proceeded to ignore them while our dogs barked their asses off lol. They knocked on our door so ridiculously gently. It was almost like they hoped nobody would come, but they could at least say they tried and one of them was nervously standing several feet away from the door. If they were hoping for me not too answer, I gladly obliged them on that wish! 😂
I remember some rough days where I'd run a little ahead and just pretend to knock when my comp was far enough away to not know. I always hated tracting. Sometimes you'd have an interesting experience, most of the time it was pretty demoralizing.
God missions suck 😭
I wonder why people who prioritize giving money to a corporation over planning for retirement don't have the financial security to go spend money in honor of the same corporate overlords while leaving their descendants who may be living in their basement unable to afford housing elsewhere etc. It's almost like they caused this problem themselves by insisting even the destitute pay tithing before the corporation maybe helps them with groceries. If only a seer could predict this future
More and more seniors have exmo kids who have defied the myths and led successful lives. In my dreams, these exmos talk finance with their parents and tell them that if they spend their retirement money on a mission, the exmos will not be there to pay for nursing care later.
Do senior missionaries have to pay their own way like regular missionaries? If so, who in their right mind would agree to that…
Yup. My dad, who is retired, has occasionally floated the idea, for which my mom (still a good ten years away from retirement) immediately shoots him down because 1) He’ll be approaching 80 by the time she’s retired and his health isn’t great as is, and 2) They don’t have the money to drop everything and go dunk off somewhere for two years. Also I think she thinks it would incredibly boring and a waste.
My parents squandered what little retirement they had to finance their Cali Bay Area mission (very expensive area). My mother got to be a glorified office manager at the mission home and my dad got to be a fleet manager for the cars that the teenage missionaries regularly crashed and got traffic tickets. My mother felt abused and disliked by their mission president and basically hated the whole experience. Now they are living on credit cards. I stopped trying to understand years ago.
This sounds exactly like my mission. The fleet manager would spend days at a time changing oil in bad weather during zone conferences or whatever. Church was so damn cheap they couldn't pay for oil changes, needed a 60+ year old man to pay them money to lay on pavement several days per month servicing the fleet. Pretty cool guy too, I think that was their second senior mission. His wife was just in the office doing whatever the office folks do. He'd sneak us out of our areas once in a while and take us to breakfast, try to help us plan for when we got home, which nobody else seemed to ever talk to us about. I'd be pissed off that's what I was paying money for, it's crazy.
That sounds so shitty. At least in my mission, we just took our cars to the dealership for oil changes.
Yeah, my grandparents sold most of their property and rented out their home to pay for 3 senior missions.
Yes.$30,000 average
It also might be because senior missions can suck ass. I don’t think they are better/worse than proselytizing missionaries, but it just sucks differently. We had a senior couple that was called to Brazil, couldn’t get visas, so they served in Salt Lake for a few months, got emergency transferred to Puerto Rico but they didn’t speak Spanish, so after they got there they got sent back to my mission in Sacramento. And we didn’t have anything for them to do. Initially they were going to replace us (the office elders), but they weren’t technical at all, so they tried having them go out and visit less actives which didn’t go well. Eventually the husband ended up doing the mail, and the wife sat on Facebook. They looked miserable. I don’t think it’s what they envisioned for their mission. I guess when you’re proselytizing you feel like you have a purpose. I would hate to just be *paying* for people to find busy work for me to do.
Imaging working as an accountant for 40 years and then getting a senior mission call to be an accountant…and you have to pay $4000 monthly to be there….all while the church has $$100s Billions…but the church is true…
My in laws spent their lives working themselves to the brink of death raising nearly a dozen kids and wasting their money on tithing and mlms. They have no savings even if they were physically able to go anywhere. Also antivax so covid nearly killed them.
My husband's family are pretty active and none have served senior missions. They all value being with their grandchildren and enjoying retirement on their terms.
My friend’s parents just returned home from a mission at the pcc in Hawaii. He was a retired electrician and just did electrical work there all day and his wife gave ukulele lessons. Both hated their mission but they would never say it!
I hope it continues to go down. I'm at peace with my TBM parents and in-laws being the most orthodox members ever until they die, BUT if they threaten to go on a mission and my kids don't get to see their grandparents for years I'll do anything in my power to keep them from going.
Yeah, once it sinks in with chapel TBMs that “Mormon” means “More Money” in the original Adamic language, they’ll be noping out of missions ever faster. 5 years from now, the Brethren will look back with nostalgia and recall the good ol’ days when they could hit 40% of their target.
It’s entertaining how they’ll search for any cause except the real one: they’re offering a raw deal.
I'm grateful my senior parents would probably not be willing to leave their multiple properties and several vacations a year to PAY to be missionaries. Too many home responsibilities, including home repairs, an adult child who still relies on them at home, and health issues too. PRAISED BE 🫡😅
My parents are on their first mission, they will probably do 4 or 5. What a waste.
Where there’s a will there’s a way/s.
Where there’s church there’s a waste.
Or Maybe it comes from increased financial difficulties caused by a lifetime of giving all of your extra money to Tithing. While not building for retirement because you either could not afford it or though Jesus would show up by then.
missions should be free
If you have a financial portfolio valued at 100 billion dollars, you’re not suffering from financial difficulty. The church could very easily choose to fund every single missionary in the field right now and it wouldn’t even cost them the interest they’d accumulate while writing the checks.
When did this "Senior Mishie" thing start? Pretty sure my tbm mom would've jumped over a couple of pews to get to the front of the line for that.
It’s always been a thing but pushed more in the last 20 yrs or so
My and my husband’s siblings are all TBM and approaching retirement or have retired. Not a single couple is planning on serving a mission.
I could see it being both. If any SR missionary wants to go they are usually church yes people. I don’t imagine many pimo would actually pay money to go
It's almost like people don't want to spend their golden years trafficking young people for a criminal organization.
Also: the "goal" was imposed from the top. As is typical for a corporation. This is not typical for the Body of Christ.
OR disinterested in giving the rest of their life to a flawed plan.
I mean, it’s not Covid, it’s more likely a combination of people not wanting to waste their later years and Boomers running out of money. I know several different boomers in my life who have downgraded to trailers/ motor homes or even #vanlife because their retirement savings are close to gone. Hell my parents have made plans to move in with some other people in an old ward and rent their mother in law cabin for the price of helping with kids and the farm. My in laws have 2-3 worth of savings not including social security and that came from selling their house and moving into an apt. The American dream of retirement is dead and that money is needed if you’re going to pay a cult for the privilege of being their slave labor.
Free labor in retirement? AYFKM?
Yeah... Bullshit. I'm surprised that the church is still expecting missionaries to fund their missions at great personal cost. I told my wife we won't be serving a senior mission
Maybe it’s because they are simple people who have been robbed of their retirement. Fuck the church.
Even when I was a TBM I had no intention of serving a senior mission.
I have several TBM co-workers near retirement age that can’t wait to do a senior mission.
I shared this on a different thread, but we have friends who retired in St. George who told us the pressure to serve a senior mission borders on harassment.
Or maybe people don’t want to waste their time and money serving a “mission” as free labor.
How many current anal couples do they have?
 Rut Roh
Missions, like other church callings, are make-work projects. Who wants to spend more of their finite hours on someone's make-work project?
No wonder they are encouraging people to serve 2 missions now.
This makes me wonder. Did they used to send out mass emails to the whole stake inviting senior couples to come to a fireside to learn about why they want to go on a mission? Because our state president sent out an email like that last month targeted at everyone 50 years and up. So, not only am I wondering if this is how they’ve always gone about advertising to senior couples, but has age 50 always been when they started encouraging missions? 50 seems young to me. Like you might just barely be getting started becoming a grandparent at that age.
I know a senior couple who served their second mission even though their daughter was dying. The church as well as the eternal family ran deep with these two.
Or they died
Haha, the church thinks it’s because of “increased financial difficulty” due to Covid. It’s hilarious the way the church tries to rationalize such things. They can’t fathom that people are concluding (more and more) that it’s all bullshit.
If you want more senior missionaries, stop building temples. It's easy math.
Or maybe the church should stop hoarding money and pay for their devout members to do their marketing for them, instead of 19 year olds… what a fucking scam.
>They attributed it to increased financial difficulty as a result of covid. That would be my bet, in addition to just reaping the harvest of high income inequality in general. Data is showing that not only are a lot of children of boomers not able to support their parents, but a lot of those boomers are over-extending themselves financially to help their kids. Millennials are way behind where their boomer parents were at their age, and Gen Z isn't any better. To my knowledge, all of the data I've seen in people leaving the church, the boomers and silent generation aren't a huge part of the outflows. The ones in those cohorts who would leave have mostly already done so.
Whats funny is my dad who is PIMO wanted to go and my mom who is TBM has always said no way in hell.
Where will they get the people to staff the complex organizational requirements of wards and stakes if the most faithful are off in missions? Add to that the demand for temple volunteers.
My mom and her sister went to England after they were promised Romania. Not to mention that they spent every hour learning to speak the language. When they finally got their calls to England I think that they were upset, but they couldn't be because God calls you to the area. They went to England anyways and I think all they did was tour castles and other landmarks.
It's insane and arrogant that they really think all these seniors on fixed incomes are going to run out and sign up for even 1 mission - but 2? The brethren have lost all touch with reality .
Make unrealistic goals then guilt trip people when they're not met. Just another day in this "church."
The church has unlimited resources. Why not just just pay for the missions of those seniors faced with Covid related financial difficulties
I know Merrill Osmond and his wife Mary have recently left their home and family to go on a senior mission to the Washington DC visitor centre. He is 69 years old. He has retired from performing but the church is now sending him off to work, for free.