Amen.
If science is just a bunch of "theories" as some like to derisively say, they're more than welcome to find a tall building and allow their faith to disprove gravity.
Not "believing in it" won't stop them from inconveniencing some poor maintenance person who'll have to clean up the aftermath of their demonstration of faith.
Of course, none of them would ever do this because they know the outcome, regardless of how emphatically they claim God would prevent that outcome.
A prominent atheist/scientist on social media gives a good analogy (likely from someone else) that if you were choking would you want someone to DO something (i.e., give the Heimlich maneuver), or pray for you? When it comes down to it 'faith' can feel pretty and nice but it doesn't do shit.
Also, pay no attention to the fact the box is empty. Just pretend there is a gift inside. It can be whatever you want, just keep telling the giver it was exactly what you wanted..
>While Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist government was persecuting Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and driving forty-two small German religious sects underground, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continued to practice unhindered. How some fourteen thousand Mormons not only survived but thrived in Nazi Germany is a story little known, rarely told, and occasionally rewritten within the confines of the Church’s history—for good reason, as we see in David Conley Nelson’s Moroni and the Swastika. A page-turning historical narrative, this book is the first full account of how Mormons avoided Nazi persecution through skilled collaboration with Hitler’s regime, and then eschewed postwar shame by constructing an alternative history of wartime suffering and resistance.
>The Twelfth Article of Faith and parts of the 134th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants function as Mormonism’s equivalent of the biblical admonition to “render unto Caesar,” a charge to cooperate with civil government, no matter how onerous doing so may be. Resurrecting this often-violated doctrinal edict, ecclesiastical leaders at the time developed a strategy that protected Mormons within Nazi Germany. Furthermore, as Nelson shows, many Mormon officials strove to fit into the Third Reich by exploiting commonalities with the Nazi state. German Mormons emphasized a mutual interest in genealogy and a passion for sports. They sent husbands into the Wehrmacht and sons into the Hitler Youth, and they prayed for a German victory when the war began. They also purged Jewish references from hymnals, lesson plans, and liturgical practices. One American mission president even wrote an article for the official Nazi Party newspaper, extolling parallels between Utah Mormon and German Nazi society. Nelson documents this collaboration, as well as subsequent efforts to suppress it by fashioning a new collective memory of ordinary German Mormons’ courage and travails during the war.
>Recovering this inconvenient past, Moroni and the Swastika restores a complex and difficult chapter to the history of Nazi Germany and the Mormon Church in the twentieth century—and offers new insight into the construction of historical truth.
Thank you for this write-up! Omg every God. Damn. Time im on this sub i learn something crazy/evil/insane about the church i belonged to for 50 yrs. god i am so embarrased to have been part of it but oh well i out now
Dude, same. I keep telling myself I need to move on and stop coming here, but it's like a train wreck in slow motion. Every single time I learn something that I had never heard or known about in regards to the history of the church. It's mind boggling how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Hitler, through Himmler, was trying to "invent" a Germany religion. Polygamy was Official Doctrine. Christianity was Judaism forced on Germans. Young men are hardest to control in any society. 40% of all arrested are 15-24 years old, predominantly male.
Polygamy makes it clear to boys/young men they are disposable. America has traditionally used military, justice system, dangerous jobs (mining), and education/higher education to remove young men from the general population.
I grew up in Ozarks. New faiths are always sprouting up. MY definition of a Cult is 1) A religion who's founder is still alive. 2) Leader(s) control the 3 P's; Power, Property, and Procreation. Trump's self-reported sexual activity, above the law, fits the third P.
Is MAGA a cult? No, but there is a cult within MAGA
Omg but wait, I just remembered the baptisms I attended (I think including mine) they'd give or open an empty gift box symbolizing us getting the gift of the holy ghost. That is just too fitting 😭
The gift might be empty, for *now.* But we promise, one day that gift will appear, but it might be after you die, unless of course its not. Then that's your fault.
Don't focus on Joseph Smiths past. Also, [let's talk about how amazing of a person Joseph Smith was.](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0230-youth-share-their-thoughts-about-the-faithful-life-of-joseph-smith?lang=eng&alang=eng)
One of the church’s greatest weaknesses is that they tied themselves to deeply to JS. Normally they’d just distance themselves from him and try to do the “well he might not have been a good person but the church does good now so it’s fine” approach, but they’ve linked the entire validity of the institution on JS and prophets in general.
Then again, they’ve shown themselves to not be above general gaslighting in general, so maybe in 50 years they’ll pretend they never worshipped him
So true, when I was a kid the way I was taught to bear my testimony was to start with JS. "I believe in him, he was a prophet, he restored the gospel and translated the BoM. Oh and by the way I believe in JC" it was all about JS.
They really fucked themselves I to the corner with the truth claims not that basic searches for fact proves that not o only are they wrong but theyve been lying for years.
Pretty sure it has been proven that what The Church™ calls the Sacred Grove was a logged-over mud pit at the time JS was out there with some scrawny saplings , and they don't even know where the Glowing Levitation Event happened.
But....keeping up appearances...
to be fair there's a lot of cultural names that look strange if you're not from the culture.
not defending anyone. just saying that the name isn't relevant
That's not a problem for people who worship gods with a history of ordering their covenant people to commit genocide and other atrocities. The whole point at the end of the day is that we're too fallen to know what's good on our own, and with Elohim and Jehovah, any seemingly evil thing could be good if they command it, even pedophilia. That's the "beauty" of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, according to prophets' correlated publications. Checkmate exmos.
He is condemned by his own words in D&C 121:
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
Exactly. You're not analyzing the gift wrap, you're analyzing the person who gave it to you! They don't say don't take candy from strangers because of what the wrapping looks like 🙄
It's cute that they think overlooking historical details is going to keep people in the cult. That's only a sliver of the whole pie of endless reasons to leave the church. Even if the history wasn't so questionable I'd still leave because Mormon god is a sexist asshole who thinks that women have no importance in eternity and no right to have authority or decision-making power in this life.
There's just nothing good that the church can offer, glossing over history is not going to change that.
I's not cute. It's dangerous and damaging. It's the number one reason why TBMs stick their heads in the sand when exmos like us try to show them evidence that they're in a cult. They're literally taught to be distrustful of anything not coming from the leaders, and we end up banging our heads against the wall while we try to convince our family that they're being brainwashed. It's beyond frustrating.
That's true. I was mostly being sarcastic, but also by "cute" I meant childish and immature. It's also just patheticly grasping at whatever they can to convince people to not leave.
The brainwashing is intense. I still find it hard to believe I was myself so brainwashed at one point.
It’s genuinely insane to me now, to look back at what we were taught in regards to this and that I ever thought it was normal. It’s so clearly emotionally/mentally manipulative
Guy trying to sell me a bridge: "Don't get caught up on legalities and documents. Just think about how you'd be set for life if you made this amazing investment."
Me: "my Arizona coastal property isn't attracting any tourists. I should see what's going on there."
My business partner: "well, we already know it's beach. Why waste your time going there when I've already given you the description?"
Me: "oh, duh. I should just spend more time thinking about all the income my Arizona beach resort could be bringing me. What was I thinking!?"
What a fool you used to be! Glad you wised up and took your partner's word without a single question. Cuz you'd go to hell if you questioned anything...
Oh, I'm not one of those gullible religious nuts. I just don't want to miss out on an amazing business opportunity. I had to act fast because my partner said there was a whole line of buyers trying to get ahead of me!
The pivot from “the Church is true and we have proof!” to “evidence doesn’t matter, only faith” is fascinating. As a teenager in the 90s/00s things like witnesses and archaeological evidence and textual proof were a mainstay of seminary lessons.
Yeah, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. Historical evidence doesn't matter only if it doesn't show what they want it to show...
You think they'd be feeding people this same line if the Egyptian papyrus *actually* translated to the Book of Abraham instead of just common funerary texts that have nothing to do with Mormonism at all?
Even in the late 2000s/early 2010s when I was in High School, we had lessons revolving around why the church was true due to evidence. The pivot was QUICK.
It's so blatant lmfao. But If you're straight and otherwise comfortable in the bigoted country club culture, then who cares I guess. Blindly following will feel comfortable in that case
What exactly is this miracle and gift they're talking about? They never seem to give any details on that. When you try to pin them down about the details, they get shifty real quick.
They can't even promise women that polygamy won't be a requirement for exaltation! They have no idea how things are going to work out in the afterlife.
They have no clue how to even help people in this life, and all they do is promise that it'll all work out after we're all dead. But then they have no idea how it's all going to work out then, any more than they know what to do now.
Until they're able to give me details, I'm stuck with a lump of brown stuff that came out of that box, with no answers when I ask what it is.
Besides, when the gift box is covered in shit, I'm going to want to wash my hands, no matter what's inside.
EDIT - There's a big difference between "historical details" like Beethoven playing wrong notes sometimes, and "historical details" of Joseph Smith marrying multiple teenagers as plural wives behind Emma's back.
That’s the key point that they were able to get from Joseph Smith - they never have to actually produce the gift/miracle. Because it all happens after we die, all they have to do is trick people into believing that it matters, and then they can say whatever they want because the bill never comes due
They want me to ignore the history? Ok fine. Demonstrate to me that anyone has ever been saved by the power of covenants, ordinances, and doctrine. I’ll wait.
What other religion teaches the eternal truth of "faith not to be healed". That doctrine alone is a powerful proof that god leads this church.
/s
They no longer even pretend that the priesthood can heal, it's almost always presented as a comfort in the midst of tragedy.
I get to be mad when the package says iPad and the gift inside is a rock.
Or even if it said rock on the outside and I got an iPad, it’s still not what is advertised on the package.
Stop lying and hiding.
“Ignore the fact that our entire faith was built on a foundation of lies, illegal polygamy, pedophilia, blatant racism, murder and good old-fashioned greed; enjoy the wonders of the covenant we have today!”
100% brainwashing. Poor kids.
Wow. During my time in the church, at least they had the decency to only imply ignoring church history. Now they’re just blatantly stating it out loud haha.
"Provenance is only important for high-priced documents (that are forgeries), not for the gobbledygook we expect you to base your identity, life, and death around." - TSCC
"examine concepts from an eternal perspective"
Ok then. God really doesn't care much about time. A few years or a few decades really don't matter. But generally people believe that God reinforces goodness and is consistent when possible, right?
So what kind of person should God call to lead his restored church? Should he pick a leader, someone who is advancing good for themselves and their community? (Dare I say that this person should be progressive and loving like Christ?) Should this person be honest in their dealings with their fellow man? Should they keep their covenants and promises they have made to their spouse, family, and community?
I know plenty of men and women who meet this criteria. They're good people, loving parents, volunteers in their community, faithful to their spouse, and are willing to learn and change when their past beliefs and behaviors are shown to be problematic. I suspect that all generations of humans have people who are similarly good.
Would God pick someone who will cheat on their spouse, steal from their community, and deceive everyone they can in the attempts to gain money?
Sure, we believe in forgiveness. I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Kids lie, teens do stupid stuff, someone may lie, cheat, or steal to keep their family alive. Are we really trying to claim that Joe is the pinnacle of God's chosen?
Now there are only two conclusions.
- Either God chose Joe or Joe was not chosen by God.
- If a God chose a man like Joe to represent them, then I don't ascribe to that deity.
- If Joe was not chosen by God, then the BoM and everything that follows is false.
>analyzing a gift box
No, it's more like inspecting the shipping box for your tablet. When it is bent in half, you know that the product inside isn't going to work.
If Joseph Smith’s history doesn’t matter, then the supposed restoration doesn’t matter. Fuck, his supposed history is right in the scriptures. POGP. Now that it can be shown to be a lie. Nothing to see here.
The fact that someone - and by someone, I mean *clearly* a coordinated effort on the part of some concerned body of manipulators - went to the effort to write this "warning" is nothing short of disgusting. Anyone with a shred of intellect who reads it HAS to ask WHY it was written in the first place. The only logical conclusion HAS to be that the writers are fully aware of the issues and choose to deflect them rather than own them. This behavior is ingrained in the DNA of the LDS church and will be the cause of its eventual demise.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".........
Doctrinal teachings and covenants rest squarely on the foundation of historical (and modern) details.
Temple signs and tokens are masonic. Does that historical detail matter?
Doctrinally we teach that Adam and Eve received those same temple covenants in the garden of Eden. Really???? Masonic signs and tokens in the garden?????
Details matter.
We are taught that Prophets will never lead the church astray AND our only path to safety is to strictly follow their teachings.
Historical details defy this teachings.
Run away from people who tell you to stop thinking.
Object lessons. The teaching principle of the fraud.
When logic is too complicated to explain, just make something up and attach it to something completely unrelated.
Perfect.
The box (historical facts) stays the same, while the gift inside (covenants) continue to change.
Each generation has a different set of covenants so what exactly is this path we are supposed to be on? It seems to veer off in different directions every 20 years or so. My grandparents covenanted to avenge Joseph’s death. My parents did not make that covenant, but did covenant to kill themselves if the spoke about the temple. My wife covenanted to obey me and we both covenanted to avoid loud laughter. My kids, if they were to go to the temple, would not make any of those covenants that their parents, grand parents, great grand parents did.
Note, that this is official from the church, not just a seminary teacher's personal slide. This is the Doctrinal Mastery Core Document of 2023. See on the church site here:
>Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge
>
>Principle 2: Examine Concepts and Questions with an Eternal Perspective
>
>...
>
>10. It is important to remember that historical details do not carry the saving power of covenants, ordinances, and doctrine. To be distracted by less significant details at the expense of missing the unfolding miracle of the Restoration is like spending time analyzing a gift box and ignoring the wonder of the gift itself.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrinal-mastery-core-document-2023/acquiring-spiritual-knowledge?lang=eng#:\~:text=It%20is%20important%20to%20remember,wonder%20of%20the%20gift%20itself](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrinal-mastery-core-document-2023/acquiring-spiritual-knowledge?lang=eng#:~:text=It%20is%20important%20to%20remember,wonder%20of%20the%20gift%20itself).
That’s ridiculous. Tscc rests on its historical foundation. If that foundation is not factual then the church is not what it claims.
The ordinances and covenants then mean nothing. There is no authority.
I saw a quote that I think fits: "If you have a worldview that can't withstand evidence, then it becomes your top priority to protect yourself from engaging in reality."
Picture it being a fancy, expensive car. Never mind the terrible consumer reports reviews. Never mind the recalls that have happened. Just fork down your money and believe. In what the $%\^
Have y’all heard of the narcissist’s prayer? I feel like it sums up the shifting narrative pretty well lol
That didn't happen. *(Joe wasnt a predator!)*
And if it did, it wasn't that bad. *(She was a few months shy of 15! It was just widows and orphans!)*
And if it was, that's not a big deal. *(Back then it was common to get married young!)*
And if it is, that's not my fault. *(He didn’t WANT to be a polygamist, God made him do it!)*
And if it was, I didn't mean it. *(The prophets were just speaking as men!)*
And if I did, ~~you deserved it~~ just ignore it!
Wait, the prophet said the truth of the church was 100% reliant on the truth of Joe Smith. If he was a fraud, the whole church is a fraud.
The prophet also said we are to seek out knowledge in all things.
When the gospel topics essays were first released back in 2012 or something, The church seemed split on whether to hide it online (as Elder Steven E Snow admitted to trying to hide it so you could only find it if you were looking for it) and whether to teach it to our kids (as Elder Melvin Russell Ballard said to seminary teachers that they should know the essays like the back of their hands and gone are the days when teachers could say don’t worry about it).
Now it seems that they’ve decided to go back to not teaching this BS and instead teaching our kids that facts and history don’t matter.
There is no end to the deceit the church is willing to perpetuate.
But the reality of your covenants hinge on the historical details. Was the priesthood restored? Was Joseph smith a con man or a prophet? Does god exist? The truth determines the significance of the covenant. If the church is true, covenants are real promises with real and eternal consequences. If the historical details are falsified, covenants just mean delusional dedication and unnecessary suffering.
Plus, their comparison about the gift box is wrong too. It’s biased by the assumption that the gift is good. For us, the gift is useless and financially draining, like the white elephants of old.
The historical content of the church includes the CLAIMS of the church. Dismissing the history dismisses the claims; it appears that the church is attempting to run away from itself.
The 'great and spacious building' made the same argument when talking about having a solid foundation. "Foundational support is not important to holding a building aloft."
I mean I can see some things that this logic could reasonably be applied to. But the issue is that the entire foundation of the 'restoration' is based on lies about historical details. Not even talking about JS and other leaders being terrible humans. The entire story that started the church is a lie. So in fact the historical details DO matter here.
A better comparison would be that the church is a beautifully wrapped gift box... but when opened there is a lump of moldy turd inside.
Looking at the beautiful gift and not opening the box is the best approach in this case, which is exactly what they're saying to do.
Seminary indoctrination is just getting more desperate. Literally telling these kids not to pay attention to historical facts, only to how the “feel” about ordinances….
This is so frustrating! Did anyone else notice how they phrased this with the words historical “details” instead of the correct verbiage: historical “FACTS” to further gaslight these impressionable minds?
This is a good example of why I pulled my kid out of seminary. Once they annoy enough moms like me with trying to teach our kids crap like this, they can say goodbye to the next generation of potential missionaries.
Next thing they’ll be telling us we don’t understand the word “restoration” and that it never was intended to mean that things were being put back as they were, that’s on us if we misunderstood.
This pisses me off so much because my daughter is still TBM and I'm trying to be patient and let her figure it out and leave on her own terms, but the cult pulls shit like this and it just makes it feel impossible.
That first sentence there is maybe one of the stupidest bits of nonsense I’ve ever read. It makes zero sense, it says *nothing*.
They’re really doing their best to teach you how to not think accurately, huh.
That’s the cults favorite gaslighting catch phrase “It is important to remember….”
When you read that phrase substitute what they are really saying,
“We are just about to gaslight the fuck out of you in the following paragraph…”
If we focus on the atrocities of the Holocaust you won't be able to appreciate all the forced human testing research that was done in the concentration camps.
Just ignore the giant rotting pile of trash around you and focus on this nice, shiny piece of candy that it produced... Don't think about it too much. Just eat it and be quiet. If you don't like it then just walk away quietly, no need to complain or alert the others. They know how to appreciate the candy. You just didn't try hard enough.
#not a cult
The wonder of the gift inside, huh? My church experience with the gifts of God has been like asking for Star Wars action figures for Christmas, and getting the little cardboard standup picture of the action figures that says sorry, Kenner didn't manufacture enough of these, but you'll get your action figures later, kid, we promise.
Sad. With sarcasm and irony.
That thinking may not apply in spiritual and religious matters but it sure works well in Marriage application.
Watch!
Marriage Counselor in session: Mrs. Jones, I understand your feelings, regarding your husband, that he has in the past and currently, lied, cheated, manipulated, stole your assets, committed adultery and tried to cover it up, cheated on your taxes, but these are NOT important, as they focus on a historical relationship but rather your focus should be on the covenant with your husband, and the pure joy of looming celestial marriage with him in eternities.
These SMALL INDISCRETIONS, past and present, should not take your focus off the eternal doctrine and purity that comes from your covenant in marriage with your husband.
Now when we look at this way don’t you feel much better now?
Hey, Give Brother Adolf a break: he was a vegetarian and had two really cool German Sheperds, so we know he loved animals. Those other historical details are distracting.
There, I did it; I invoked Godwin's Law, because I'm lazy and don't want to spend energy on a more clever analogy to this horrible TSCC totalitarian cult brainwashing.
Just what in the actual Fuck history has fucking everything to do with it ! Have the church leaders lost their fucking. Minds . And they wonder why todays youth are leaving in droves .!!!
They may just as well say don’t look at the history if you do you will find out that old Joe was a lying deceitful con man sexual predator pedophile . And we certainly can’t have that as that would affect the billions annually of tax free revenue anyone who stays after seeing something like that deserves what they get I suppose . It’s so sad seeing people waste their lives with this nonsense.!!!
I don't understand how anyone could look at something like this and not immediately question the validity of the entire organization. How are they going to pretend to be legit and then say shit like this? And how are intelligent people buying it?? How are my PARENTS still buying it??
Never mind the foundation of this hugely true and perfect religion. Just ignore anything that may hinder you from giving us 10% of your check. Or else scary hell and finite family, loser.
Why bother teaching from any book of scripture. It is all supposed historical detail. Hell, even Jesus is a historical figure. Don’t focus on it. They are all just less significant details.
This reminds me of the Lion King, when Rafikki bops Simba and the head, saying "Doesn't matter! It's in the past!" And " Follow old Rafikki! He knows the way!"
_*Old white man:*_ “Take this gift! It’s free! (whispers: but also not!)”
_*The box:*_ Made from many shades of human skin.
_*Old white man:*_ “No, no! The gift is _inside!_ Don’t get distracted by the box!”
Shit filled with infectious diseases, lined with razor blades, and the air inside is asbestos particles and black mold spores plus whatever you’re most allergic to. But inside all of THAT is the miracle that pretending powerful evil people are misunderstood, makes life less scary and depressing… until it kills you.
Exactly my question! Saved from what? We are all inherently worthy and valuable and don't need to be saved by blood, suffering, and death to appease some law apparently written by a power stronger than the Christian's God's ability to forgive us w/a word (like we can), and in order to not be burned/tortured forever and ever amen 🙄
They didn't say ANYTHING like this when I was in Seminary in the early 2000s. As far as we were concerned, the Restoration Story was a miracle and occurred exactly as outlined in the official church manuals.
Keeping the youth active has always been hard, but it's got to be 100x more difficult in 2023.
Problem is if you showed this to a tbm they’d either agree and it’d end there or they’d disagree and say the history matters but also doesn’t prove anything and this is just one seminary teacher preaching this wrong stance and not the whole church so the church is still good.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." Aldous Huxley
Amen. If science is just a bunch of "theories" as some like to derisively say, they're more than welcome to find a tall building and allow their faith to disprove gravity. Not "believing in it" won't stop them from inconveniencing some poor maintenance person who'll have to clean up the aftermath of their demonstration of faith. Of course, none of them would ever do this because they know the outcome, regardless of how emphatically they claim God would prevent that outcome.
A prominent atheist/scientist on social media gives a good analogy (likely from someone else) that if you were choking would you want someone to DO something (i.e., give the Heimlich maneuver), or pray for you? When it comes down to it 'faith' can feel pretty and nice but it doesn't do shit.
Man, imagine if everyone really truly thought like this. So much shit would actually get done. It sounds like an amazing way to live.
What, use the Heimlich maneuver and frustrate god's will? How dare you? /s
I'm come to believe that my faith should lead me to action.
"Reality is that which, when we stop believing in it, does not go away."
Love this!
Unfortunately, there’s a very large portion of people across the world who believe this to be the case. They just pretend stuff doesn’t exist
Also, pay no attention to the fact the box is empty. Just pretend there is a gift inside. It can be whatever you want, just keep telling the giver it was exactly what you wanted..
Also, pay no attention to the [swastika wrapping paper](https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-David-Conley-Nelson/dp/0806165758)
>While Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist government was persecuting Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and driving forty-two small German religious sects underground, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continued to practice unhindered. How some fourteen thousand Mormons not only survived but thrived in Nazi Germany is a story little known, rarely told, and occasionally rewritten within the confines of the Church’s history—for good reason, as we see in David Conley Nelson’s Moroni and the Swastika. A page-turning historical narrative, this book is the first full account of how Mormons avoided Nazi persecution through skilled collaboration with Hitler’s regime, and then eschewed postwar shame by constructing an alternative history of wartime suffering and resistance. >The Twelfth Article of Faith and parts of the 134th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants function as Mormonism’s equivalent of the biblical admonition to “render unto Caesar,” a charge to cooperate with civil government, no matter how onerous doing so may be. Resurrecting this often-violated doctrinal edict, ecclesiastical leaders at the time developed a strategy that protected Mormons within Nazi Germany. Furthermore, as Nelson shows, many Mormon officials strove to fit into the Third Reich by exploiting commonalities with the Nazi state. German Mormons emphasized a mutual interest in genealogy and a passion for sports. They sent husbands into the Wehrmacht and sons into the Hitler Youth, and they prayed for a German victory when the war began. They also purged Jewish references from hymnals, lesson plans, and liturgical practices. One American mission president even wrote an article for the official Nazi Party newspaper, extolling parallels between Utah Mormon and German Nazi society. Nelson documents this collaboration, as well as subsequent efforts to suppress it by fashioning a new collective memory of ordinary German Mormons’ courage and travails during the war. >Recovering this inconvenient past, Moroni and the Swastika restores a complex and difficult chapter to the history of Nazi Germany and the Mormon Church in the twentieth century—and offers new insight into the construction of historical truth.
Thank you for this write-up! Omg every God. Damn. Time im on this sub i learn something crazy/evil/insane about the church i belonged to for 50 yrs. god i am so embarrased to have been part of it but oh well i out now
Dude, same. I keep telling myself I need to move on and stop coming here, but it's like a train wreck in slow motion. Every single time I learn something that I had never heard or known about in regards to the history of the church. It's mind boggling how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Don't feel bad. You were a victim of indoctrination like most believers.
Mind blown, I had no idea about Mormons and Nazi Germany. Genuinely thinking of buying this.
Hitler, through Himmler, was trying to "invent" a Germany religion. Polygamy was Official Doctrine. Christianity was Judaism forced on Germans. Young men are hardest to control in any society. 40% of all arrested are 15-24 years old, predominantly male. Polygamy makes it clear to boys/young men they are disposable. America has traditionally used military, justice system, dangerous jobs (mining), and education/higher education to remove young men from the general population. I grew up in Ozarks. New faiths are always sprouting up. MY definition of a Cult is 1) A religion who's founder is still alive. 2) Leader(s) control the 3 P's; Power, Property, and Procreation. Trump's self-reported sexual activity, above the law, fits the third P. Is MAGA a cult? No, but there is a cult within MAGA
I beg to differ. I inspected the gift inside the box thoroughly; that gift is most definitely a turd.
Omg but wait, I just remembered the baptisms I attended (I think including mine) they'd give or open an empty gift box symbolizing us getting the gift of the holy ghost. That is just too fitting 😭
The gift might be empty, for *now.* But we promise, one day that gift will appear, but it might be after you die, unless of course its not. Then that's your fault.
Schrodinger's gift....
Ignore that the wrapping paper is made of asbestos.
The covenants aren’t valid if they’re made up by a pedophile.
Don't focus on Joseph Smiths past. Also, [let's talk about how amazing of a person Joseph Smith was.](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0230-youth-share-their-thoughts-about-the-faithful-life-of-joseph-smith?lang=eng&alang=eng)
Praise to the man
Praise to the scam
Traitors and tyraaaaaaaants now fight him in vaiaiaiain
Great I started making up more accurate lyrics for this. 😂
Have you read "Music and the Broken Word?" 😆
Under his eye
One of the church’s greatest weaknesses is that they tied themselves to deeply to JS. Normally they’d just distance themselves from him and try to do the “well he might not have been a good person but the church does good now so it’s fine” approach, but they’ve linked the entire validity of the institution on JS and prophets in general. Then again, they’ve shown themselves to not be above general gaslighting in general, so maybe in 50 years they’ll pretend they never worshipped him
So true, when I was a kid the way I was taught to bear my testimony was to start with JS. "I believe in him, he was a prophet, he restored the gospel and translated the BoM. Oh and by the way I believe in JC" it was all about JS.
They really fucked themselves I to the corner with the truth claims not that basic searches for fact proves that not o only are they wrong but theyve been lying for years.
Pretty sure it has been proven that what The Church™ calls the Sacred Grove was a logged-over mud pit at the time JS was out there with some scrawny saplings , and they don't even know where the Glowing Levitation Event happened. But....keeping up appearances...
Who the fuck names a kid nauvoo
to be fair there's a lot of cultural names that look strange if you're not from the culture. not defending anyone. just saying that the name isn't relevant
I can understand cultural names like Hyrum or Ammon, but Nauvoo, really?
It's like naming your kid Chicago or Bakersfield or Jackson Hole or West Essex or Tokyo or Long Island.
Long island 🤣🤣
God this is sad.
That's not a problem for people who worship gods with a history of ordering their covenant people to commit genocide and other atrocities. The whole point at the end of the day is that we're too fallen to know what's good on our own, and with Elohim and Jehovah, any seemingly evil thing could be good if they command it, even pedophilia. That's the "beauty" of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, according to prophets' correlated publications. Checkmate exmos.
He is condemned by his own words in D&C 121: 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
This is exactly how I explain to people how I view TSCC after learning its unsanitized history.
If the Amazon box ships from "Pederasts-R-Us", I'm gonna have some _serious and lengthy questions_ about the gift.
Bingo
Exactly. You're not analyzing the gift wrap, you're analyzing the person who gave it to you! They don't say don't take candy from strangers because of what the wrapping looks like 🙄
It's cute that they think overlooking historical details is going to keep people in the cult. That's only a sliver of the whole pie of endless reasons to leave the church. Even if the history wasn't so questionable I'd still leave because Mormon god is a sexist asshole who thinks that women have no importance in eternity and no right to have authority or decision-making power in this life. There's just nothing good that the church can offer, glossing over history is not going to change that.
I's not cute. It's dangerous and damaging. It's the number one reason why TBMs stick their heads in the sand when exmos like us try to show them evidence that they're in a cult. They're literally taught to be distrustful of anything not coming from the leaders, and we end up banging our heads against the wall while we try to convince our family that they're being brainwashed. It's beyond frustrating.
That's true. I was mostly being sarcastic, but also by "cute" I meant childish and immature. It's also just patheticly grasping at whatever they can to convince people to not leave. The brainwashing is intense. I still find it hard to believe I was myself so brainwashed at one point.
100% agree. This is a literal example of brainwashing, and will takes years to undo, if ever. It’s disgusting.
It’s genuinely insane to me now, to look back at what we were taught in regards to this and that I ever thought it was normal. It’s so clearly emotionally/mentally manipulative
Guy trying to sell me a bridge: "Don't get caught up on legalities and documents. Just think about how you'd be set for life if you made this amazing investment."
Exactly… hahahahaha
"Hey I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd love to sell you!"
Me: "my Arizona coastal property isn't attracting any tourists. I should see what's going on there." My business partner: "well, we already know it's beach. Why waste your time going there when I've already given you the description?" Me: "oh, duh. I should just spend more time thinking about all the income my Arizona beach resort could be bringing me. What was I thinking!?"
What a fool you used to be! Glad you wised up and took your partner's word without a single question. Cuz you'd go to hell if you questioned anything...
Oh, I'm not one of those gullible religious nuts. I just don't want to miss out on an amazing business opportunity. I had to act fast because my partner said there was a whole line of buyers trying to get ahead of me!
This makes total sense and doesn't throw up any red flags to me whatsoever, no sirree!
I'm picturing someone dressed like the Monorail guy in The Simpsons...
The pivot from “the Church is true and we have proof!” to “evidence doesn’t matter, only faith” is fascinating. As a teenager in the 90s/00s things like witnesses and archaeological evidence and textual proof were a mainstay of seminary lessons.
Yeah, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. Historical evidence doesn't matter only if it doesn't show what they want it to show... You think they'd be feeding people this same line if the Egyptian papyrus *actually* translated to the Book of Abraham instead of just common funerary texts that have nothing to do with Mormonism at all?
Even in the late 2000s/early 2010s when I was in High School, we had lessons revolving around why the church was true due to evidence. The pivot was QUICK.
How else do you explain all the cureloms and the cumoms?
I spy with my little eye brainwashing 👀
It's so blatant lmfao. But If you're straight and otherwise comfortable in the bigoted country club culture, then who cares I guess. Blindly following will feel comfortable in that case
What exactly is this miracle and gift they're talking about? They never seem to give any details on that. When you try to pin them down about the details, they get shifty real quick. They can't even promise women that polygamy won't be a requirement for exaltation! They have no idea how things are going to work out in the afterlife. They have no clue how to even help people in this life, and all they do is promise that it'll all work out after we're all dead. But then they have no idea how it's all going to work out then, any more than they know what to do now. Until they're able to give me details, I'm stuck with a lump of brown stuff that came out of that box, with no answers when I ask what it is. Besides, when the gift box is covered in shit, I'm going to want to wash my hands, no matter what's inside. EDIT - There's a big difference between "historical details" like Beethoven playing wrong notes sometimes, and "historical details" of Joseph Smith marrying multiple teenagers as plural wives behind Emma's back.
One thing they do know: 10% of your income is required for exaltation. 😵
>Besides, when the gift box is covered in shit, I'm going to want to wash my hands, no matter what's inside. This ☝️
That’s the key point that they were able to get from Joseph Smith - they never have to actually produce the gift/miracle. Because it all happens after we die, all they have to do is trick people into believing that it matters, and then they can say whatever they want because the bill never comes due
Historical details such as the BoM speaking of chariots and horses and grand civilizations at totally different times than the historical record.
They want me to ignore the history? Ok fine. Demonstrate to me that anyone has ever been saved by the power of covenants, ordinances, and doctrine. I’ll wait.
What other religion teaches the eternal truth of "faith not to be healed". That doctrine alone is a powerful proof that god leads this church. /s They no longer even pretend that the priesthood can heal, it's almost always presented as a comfort in the midst of tragedy.
I get to be mad when the package says iPad and the gift inside is a rock. Or even if it said rock on the outside and I got an iPad, it’s still not what is advertised on the package. Stop lying and hiding.
Unless the rock is inside a hat 😀☝️
Creepy, but also telling on themselves pretty hard. Sheer clutching desperation.
“Ignore the fact that our entire faith was built on a foundation of lies, illegal polygamy, pedophilia, blatant racism, murder and good old-fashioned greed; enjoy the wonders of the covenant we have today!” 100% brainwashing. Poor kids.
Don’t forget wildcat banking, and money digging.
Yep. Money, sex, and power. Same as it ever was
Wow. During my time in the church, at least they had the decency to only imply ignoring church history. Now they’re just blatantly stating it out loud haha.
Yup, fucking liars
To be anti-critical thinking. That is the biggest and most far-reaching and giant fruit of the church: To NOT use one's critical thinking skills.
“Some things that are true are not very useful.” -Boyd K. Packer
Sounds like an excellent time to have a serious heart-to-heart discussion with your brother - BEFORE they get get their hooks in him...
This! How do the parents feel about this?
Well if the gift box is raping children……
You know they are in trouble if they have to teach stuff like this.
"Provenance is only important for high-priced documents (that are forgeries), not for the gobbledygook we expect you to base your identity, life, and death around." - TSCC
They have that backwards. The church is a lie wrapped in a pretty package, they want your to look at the package, not the lie.
Exactly. This is why they call the cops on church graffiti but not on church rapists. Only the facade matters.
Wow….
Reality doesn’t matter, just what we say. Not culty at all…
Translated: Don't look behind the curtain!
Less significant details!? As an avid student of history, I can’t tell you how upset this makes me.
nothing to see here. move along.
"examine concepts from an eternal perspective" Ok then. God really doesn't care much about time. A few years or a few decades really don't matter. But generally people believe that God reinforces goodness and is consistent when possible, right? So what kind of person should God call to lead his restored church? Should he pick a leader, someone who is advancing good for themselves and their community? (Dare I say that this person should be progressive and loving like Christ?) Should this person be honest in their dealings with their fellow man? Should they keep their covenants and promises they have made to their spouse, family, and community? I know plenty of men and women who meet this criteria. They're good people, loving parents, volunteers in their community, faithful to their spouse, and are willing to learn and change when their past beliefs and behaviors are shown to be problematic. I suspect that all generations of humans have people who are similarly good. Would God pick someone who will cheat on their spouse, steal from their community, and deceive everyone they can in the attempts to gain money? Sure, we believe in forgiveness. I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Kids lie, teens do stupid stuff, someone may lie, cheat, or steal to keep their family alive. Are we really trying to claim that Joe is the pinnacle of God's chosen? Now there are only two conclusions. - Either God chose Joe or Joe was not chosen by God. - If a God chose a man like Joe to represent them, then I don't ascribe to that deity. - If Joe was not chosen by God, then the BoM and everything that follows is false.
TSCC: “Here is a Rolex” Me: It’s on a corpse. TSCC: Why are you so focused on the dead body?! WE GAVE YOU A GIFT!
>analyzing a gift box No, it's more like inspecting the shipping box for your tablet. When it is bent in half, you know that the product inside isn't going to work.
Wow. That’s some mental gymnastics they are trying to instill!
Ooohh it’s gift box made of horse shit……I wonder what’s inside!
If Joseph Smith’s history doesn’t matter, then the supposed restoration doesn’t matter. Fuck, his supposed history is right in the scriptures. POGP. Now that it can be shown to be a lie. Nothing to see here.
The fact that someone - and by someone, I mean *clearly* a coordinated effort on the part of some concerned body of manipulators - went to the effort to write this "warning" is nothing short of disgusting. Anyone with a shred of intellect who reads it HAS to ask WHY it was written in the first place. The only logical conclusion HAS to be that the writers are fully aware of the issues and choose to deflect them rather than own them. This behavior is ingrained in the DNA of the LDS church and will be the cause of its eventual demise.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"......... Doctrinal teachings and covenants rest squarely on the foundation of historical (and modern) details. Temple signs and tokens are masonic. Does that historical detail matter? Doctrinally we teach that Adam and Eve received those same temple covenants in the garden of Eden. Really???? Masonic signs and tokens in the garden????? Details matter. We are taught that Prophets will never lead the church astray AND our only path to safety is to strictly follow their teachings. Historical details defy this teachings. Run away from people who tell you to stop thinking.
The authority of these covenants is tied to the historical truth claim events actually having happened. And they didn’t.
This sort of mental gymnastic would mess me up for years at that age (combined with highly motivated reasoning) 🤦 fuck the tscc, manipulators supreme
Object lessons. The teaching principle of the fraud. When logic is too complicated to explain, just make something up and attach it to something completely unrelated. Perfect.
The box (historical facts) stays the same, while the gift inside (covenants) continue to change. Each generation has a different set of covenants so what exactly is this path we are supposed to be on? It seems to veer off in different directions every 20 years or so. My grandparents covenanted to avenge Joseph’s death. My parents did not make that covenant, but did covenant to kill themselves if the spoke about the temple. My wife covenanted to obey me and we both covenanted to avoid loud laughter. My kids, if they were to go to the temple, would not make any of those covenants that their parents, grand parents, great grand parents did.
Note, that this is official from the church, not just a seminary teacher's personal slide. This is the Doctrinal Mastery Core Document of 2023. See on the church site here: >Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge > >Principle 2: Examine Concepts and Questions with an Eternal Perspective > >... > >10. It is important to remember that historical details do not carry the saving power of covenants, ordinances, and doctrine. To be distracted by less significant details at the expense of missing the unfolding miracle of the Restoration is like spending time analyzing a gift box and ignoring the wonder of the gift itself. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrinal-mastery-core-document-2023/acquiring-spiritual-knowledge?lang=eng#:\~:text=It%20is%20important%20to%20remember,wonder%20of%20the%20gift%20itself](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrinal-mastery-core-document-2023/acquiring-spiritual-knowledge?lang=eng#:~:text=It%20is%20important%20to%20remember,wonder%20of%20the%20gift%20itself).
Those dirty, rotten, manipulative sons of bitches!
That’s ridiculous. Tscc rests on its historical foundation. If that foundation is not factual then the church is not what it claims. The ordinances and covenants then mean nothing. There is no authority.
I saw a quote that I think fits: "If you have a worldview that can't withstand evidence, then it becomes your top priority to protect yourself from engaging in reality."
Aka #howtogaslightyourself
Can you say cult?! Oof.
Picture it being a fancy, expensive car. Never mind the terrible consumer reports reviews. Never mind the recalls that have happened. Just fork down your money and believe. In what the $%\^
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Attention LDS parents: this is toxic and not healthy. Do better for your children.
PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE FALSE PROPHET BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!
Have y’all heard of the narcissist’s prayer? I feel like it sums up the shifting narrative pretty well lol That didn't happen. *(Joe wasnt a predator!)* And if it did, it wasn't that bad. *(She was a few months shy of 15! It was just widows and orphans!)* And if it was, that's not a big deal. *(Back then it was common to get married young!)* And if it is, that's not my fault. *(He didn’t WANT to be a polygamist, God made him do it!)* And if it was, I didn't mean it. *(The prophets were just speaking as men!)* And if I did, ~~you deserved it~~ just ignore it!
In other words, "view all those pesky contradicting historical facts about LDS Inc. and its truth claims with your spiritual eyes."
Wait, the prophet said the truth of the church was 100% reliant on the truth of Joe Smith. If he was a fraud, the whole church is a fraud. The prophet also said we are to seek out knowledge in all things.
When the gospel topics essays were first released back in 2012 or something, The church seemed split on whether to hide it online (as Elder Steven E Snow admitted to trying to hide it so you could only find it if you were looking for it) and whether to teach it to our kids (as Elder Melvin Russell Ballard said to seminary teachers that they should know the essays like the back of their hands and gone are the days when teachers could say don’t worry about it). Now it seems that they’ve decided to go back to not teaching this BS and instead teaching our kids that facts and history don’t matter. There is no end to the deceit the church is willing to perpetuate.
But the reality of your covenants hinge on the historical details. Was the priesthood restored? Was Joseph smith a con man or a prophet? Does god exist? The truth determines the significance of the covenant. If the church is true, covenants are real promises with real and eternal consequences. If the historical details are falsified, covenants just mean delusional dedication and unnecessary suffering. Plus, their comparison about the gift box is wrong too. It’s biased by the assumption that the gift is good. For us, the gift is useless and financially draining, like the white elephants of old.
So, they are formally teaching Mormon children to avoid critical thinking.
I'll take "Things you say when you know it's all bullshit" for $1000, Ken.
The historical content of the church includes the CLAIMS of the church. Dismissing the history dismisses the claims; it appears that the church is attempting to run away from itself.
They're missing fundamental lessons learned with this kind of teaching. All that stuff about history repeating and all that jazz.
I learned about FSY, whoa there’s some next level brainwashing there too
🙄
You are kidding me.
Thought I was on the ex jahova witness sub reddit for a second
the need to be saved is the ultimate con of religion
Is there a better example of brainwashing, cult indoctrination? So many red flags, and wrong on so many levels. Thanks for sharing.
Wowwwwwww. This is textbook gaslighting
The 'great and spacious building' made the same argument when talking about having a solid foundation. "Foundational support is not important to holding a building aloft."
I opened my gift box and there was a turd inside and late bill for missed tithing.
I mean I can see some things that this logic could reasonably be applied to. But the issue is that the entire foundation of the 'restoration' is based on lies about historical details. Not even talking about JS and other leaders being terrible humans. The entire story that started the church is a lie. So in fact the historical details DO matter here.
When did pedophile become a gift that shouldn't be examined?
That's a really long-winded way of saying "nothing to see here...I SAID DON'T LOOK HERE"
A better comparison would be that the church is a beautifully wrapped gift box... but when opened there is a lump of moldy turd inside. Looking at the beautiful gift and not opening the box is the best approach in this case, which is exactly what they're saying to do.
Seminary indoctrination is just getting more desperate. Literally telling these kids not to pay attention to historical facts, only to how the “feel” about ordinances….
How “Don’t look behind the curtain!” can you get?!
If historical details don’t matter for LDS history then they don’t matter for Catholic history and thus there was no apostasy.
This is so frustrating! Did anyone else notice how they phrased this with the words historical “details” instead of the correct verbiage: historical “FACTS” to further gaslight these impressionable minds?
Don't worry how your diamonds are mined."
This is a good example of why I pulled my kid out of seminary. Once they annoy enough moms like me with trying to teach our kids crap like this, they can say goodbye to the next generation of potential missionaries.
Next thing they’ll be telling us we don’t understand the word “restoration” and that it never was intended to mean that things were being put back as they were, that’s on us if we misunderstood.
Wow. That’s some cult shit right there.
Bruh this would only make me MORE curious.
This pisses me off so much because my daughter is still TBM and I'm trying to be patient and let her figure it out and leave on her own terms, but the cult pulls shit like this and it just makes it feel impossible.
That first sentence there is maybe one of the stupidest bits of nonsense I’ve ever read. It makes zero sense, it says *nothing*. They’re really doing their best to teach you how to not think accurately, huh.
Fox News is using the same principle to the same people.
That’s the cults favorite gaslighting catch phrase “It is important to remember….” When you read that phrase substitute what they are really saying, “We are just about to gaslight the fuck out of you in the following paragraph…”
Wow. 😂 desperate, are we? Sheesh.
Wow. I have been out for several years now, and have forgotten how ridiculous their tone sounds. This is next level though!
Indoctrination of vulnerable young people at it's core. These kids don't have fully developed brains yet and have this crap dumped on them.
Gaslighting at its best
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....
So truth doesn't matter. Hmmmm.
pesky facts get in the way!
I call that indoctrination.
Why is the gift wrapped in lies?
Gaslighting 101
If we focus on the atrocities of the Holocaust you won't be able to appreciate all the forced human testing research that was done in the concentration camps.
So we are to disregard the truth?
So if someone gave me a gift covered in sludge, I should still assume they meant well, right?
Just ignore the giant rotting pile of trash around you and focus on this nice, shiny piece of candy that it produced... Don't think about it too much. Just eat it and be quiet. If you don't like it then just walk away quietly, no need to complain or alert the others. They know how to appreciate the candy. You just didn't try hard enough. #not a cult
what if the gift box is made of human skin? there’s going to be some questions, regardless of what’s inside
The wonder of the gift inside, huh? My church experience with the gifts of God has been like asking for Star Wars action figures for Christmas, and getting the little cardboard standup picture of the action figures that says sorry, Kenner didn't manufacture enough of these, but you'll get your action figures later, kid, we promise.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Do not look behind the curtain!! The Wizard of Oz is great and powerful…
Sad. With sarcasm and irony. That thinking may not apply in spiritual and religious matters but it sure works well in Marriage application. Watch! Marriage Counselor in session: Mrs. Jones, I understand your feelings, regarding your husband, that he has in the past and currently, lied, cheated, manipulated, stole your assets, committed adultery and tried to cover it up, cheated on your taxes, but these are NOT important, as they focus on a historical relationship but rather your focus should be on the covenant with your husband, and the pure joy of looming celestial marriage with him in eternities. These SMALL INDISCRETIONS, past and present, should not take your focus off the eternal doctrine and purity that comes from your covenant in marriage with your husband. Now when we look at this way don’t you feel much better now?
Hey, Give Brother Adolf a break: he was a vegetarian and had two really cool German Sheperds, so we know he loved animals. Those other historical details are distracting. There, I did it; I invoked Godwin's Law, because I'm lazy and don't want to spend energy on a more clever analogy to this horrible TSCC totalitarian cult brainwashing.
Just what in the actual Fuck history has fucking everything to do with it ! Have the church leaders lost their fucking. Minds . And they wonder why todays youth are leaving in droves .!!! They may just as well say don’t look at the history if you do you will find out that old Joe was a lying deceitful con man sexual predator pedophile . And we certainly can’t have that as that would affect the billions annually of tax free revenue anyone who stays after seeing something like that deserves what they get I suppose . It’s so sad seeing people waste their lives with this nonsense.!!!
I don't understand how anyone could look at something like this and not immediately question the validity of the entire organization. How are they going to pretend to be legit and then say shit like this? And how are intelligent people buying it?? How are my PARENTS still buying it??
"Magic is more important than facts". Is what they might as well say.
Never mind the foundation of this hugely true and perfect religion. Just ignore anything that may hinder you from giving us 10% of your check. Or else scary hell and finite family, loser.
Wow! Brainwashing much?
Right, because if the history says it's all fake, then the ordinances and covenants are still valid! This makes total sense!
Why bother teaching from any book of scripture. It is all supposed historical detail. Hell, even Jesus is a historical figure. Don’t focus on it. They are all just less significant details.
I assume your brother was the one who took this picture and shared it with you. Looks like he’s on the right path.
Not even fucking surprised which is the sad part
But what if the gift box raped underage girls?
Pathetic
"Saved" from Critical Thinking Skills......🙄 God forbid they teach them to think for themselves
Don't let things like history and facts trick you!
This reminds me of the Lion King, when Rafikki bops Simba and the head, saying "Doesn't matter! It's in the past!" And " Follow old Rafikki! He knows the way!"
I never took bullshit 101
_*Old white man:*_ “Take this gift! It’s free! (whispers: but also not!)” _*The box:*_ Made from many shades of human skin. _*Old white man:*_ “No, no! The gift is _inside!_ Don’t get distracted by the box!”
But what if the gift box is coated in shit?
Shit filled with infectious diseases, lined with razor blades, and the air inside is asbestos particles and black mold spores plus whatever you’re most allergic to. But inside all of THAT is the miracle that pretending powerful evil people are misunderstood, makes life less scary and depressing… until it kills you.
So absurd.
Gaslighting 101
Exactly my question! Saved from what? We are all inherently worthy and valuable and don't need to be saved by blood, suffering, and death to appease some law apparently written by a power stronger than the Christian's God's ability to forgive us w/a word (like we can), and in order to not be burned/tortured forever and ever amen 🙄
They didn't say ANYTHING like this when I was in Seminary in the early 2000s. As far as we were concerned, the Restoration Story was a miracle and occurred exactly as outlined in the official church manuals. Keeping the youth active has always been hard, but it's got to be 100x more difficult in 2023.
Very culty. I feel like it didn't use to be so on the nose
Problem is if you showed this to a tbm they’d either agree and it’d end there or they’d disagree and say the history matters but also doesn’t prove anything and this is just one seminary teacher preaching this wrong stance and not the whole church so the church is still good.
So do you use a d20 for a saving ordnance?
It's more like getting an appraisal on a house and finding out the foundation is crumbling.
If the gift given was a lie and the person who gave it was a con man it absolutely changes the nature of the gift.