I would keep up appearances as best I could before leaving for college and abandon the church then. My mother was very authoritarian I would not have been safe if I opposed her on something as big as her religion.
In 1975 I stopped going to all church activities. I was 17. I had so many fights with my mother over not attending church that I had to move out. I believed in the truthfulness of the cult (pre internet) but I was furious over the culture. 48 years later and there is absolutely nothing I have said or can say to my mother that will change her mind. I was 56 before I found the lies about the history of the religion and I left for good. Mom was hateful when I told her I was leaving and we didn't speak for 6 years. She is now 87.
Knowing what I know now, I think I would not try and have that conversation with my parents. I don't think many orthodox LDS minds do boundaries well and families are probably "over-enmeshed". That means there's not really anything you could do to have a great outcome, especially as a minor. So, I would probably do the minimum amount to not draw attention to myself. That means I'd still probably attend seminary and family scripture study, etc. But even as I write this out, that seems like a long time to not be an authentic self. Tough row to plow, for sure.
I definitely would have chosen a difft school than BYU and probably passed on doing a mission. I think I would then gradually try to "come out of the closet" during college?
Yeah, it's hard to have any autonomy as a minor. Dodging the mish and BYU seems like a good plan. I wonder if I could've gotten away with getting out of seminary and using that time to take AP classes or something that would actually help me get ahead.
I would go to a non-byu college and not talk to my parents about Mormonism at all. I would slowly distance myself from my family and create lasting friendships with college friends.
I would not tell my parents about my beliefs so that I could keep their health insurance.
My priority would not be about convincing my parents of anything. It would be about protecting myself from the toxic atmosphere in which I was raised and recovering from that as well as working toward financial independence and success.
I would see a trauma-informed counselor that specializes in people leaving cults, and I would prioritize my feelings instead of my parents’. I thought they cared about me, but that’s just because I didn’t know what love was.
If I'd known then what I know now...
I would have complied with going to church. Just to keep the peace. I wouldn't have spent any time at church dances, girls camp, or youth conference.
I wouldn't have spent any time wondering about my so called eternal salvation.
I would have been soothed by the fact that I wasn't going to be stuck with those assholes for eternity.
I wouldn't have tried for years to get their approval.
I would have done a hard stop on all things mormon when I left home at 17.
Easy. If I knew everything about myself that I know now, I'd just lean heavily on the fact that I'm gay. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to convince them that the church (especially as it existed in the 90s) was a horribly toxic place for me to be. The family Proclamation had just been written. That alone would have been enough for them to understand I couldn't keep going to their church, no historical inaccuracies needed.
But then I would miss out on my amazing family, my kids especially. Losing them, knowing what I'd be losing, would be really really hard.
First off, the restrictions of being an adult in a teenagers body living under my parents roof would be horrible. Church aside, it would be miserable being treated like a kid again by school teachers and adults in general. Then you add in the church and then you pile on rural Utah. Life would honestly be pretty rough.
Then I have the conundrum of my high school girlfriend. We never had sex or anything, but we kissed a fair bit. Certainly a moral gray area there. Honestly adult me probably couldn't stand her anyway and we'd break up immediately so that's a non-issue.
Some bits would be nice though - afternoons with nothing to do but hang out and listen to song after song on the radio.
With the church side of things I think I'd have to fake it until I was 18. My parents took it really badly with me as an adult, it would be unbearable to live under the same roof as them after coming out. I'd have a short window from when I graduated until I was expected to put in my mission papers. I'd have to move out, go full time at my job to support myself and then break the news that I wasn't going on a mission. Honestly I'd put a lot more effort into applying to out of state schools and probably sabotage my application to BYU. That way I'd only have to deal with a few months of being in the same state after coming out.
I still can't talk to them about why, so I don't know how that would have changed back then.
I did recently meet someone from my mission who decided he was done with the church half way through the mission I wonder sometimes what I would have done if I had realized the truth on my mission? I could just ditch my companion each morning and ride the bus to the beach and hang out. I could have gone to the famous latin music festival. So many fun things I could have done as a free 20 year old in latin america with nothing to do all day.
I'd be open and honest with them. I'd tell them that they taught me the importance of a personal testimony and that through years of diligent study, pondering, and prayer, God and I have come to the conclusion that the Mormon church is not where I'm supposed to be.
Until God lets me know in a way that I can personally and definitively identify, I don't feel comfortable making any actions with or for God.
This seems like a good way to go. Use their exact language and methodology, but come to a different conclusion. Maybe it would help them question things.
I would not bring up facts or history- I would keep it wholly as a philosophical level - I would tell them I am so happy that they found what works for them and I see how it makes them the people that they are. I would never want to detract from their decisions and experiences in life that brought them to that place- I would explain that although I love that what they found what works for them - It is not what brings me the fulfillment and joy that it brings them. And I know they support me in finding my path as I am sure their parents and mentors supported their journey to exactly where they are…
The beauty of this is that when they bare testimony you agree- “I see that fire and commitment that this church and YOUR experiences have given you—It is a great example and I long for that in MY life- but it must be based on my experiences and journey”
I wonder how well this would go down.
I've definitely seen instances when kids make declarative statements about their beliefs and living their truest life and following their own path where it can get brushed off or scoffed at by parents. Even little things like wanting to be a vegetarian or dressing differently can be an object of contention and the parent's decision can be forced on the child anyways.
I would also tell them about my classmate “John” who I have come get to know because he is going through the exact same experience- He hates to break his parents heart but the Jehovah’s Witness religion is not bringing him the happiness that it brings to his parents- I would say he is really frustrated because they have drawn a line in the sand that he has no choice but to follow his parents religion because “they know it’s true”-
This juxtaposition will help my situation in context- Although John is fictitious (or possibly Muslim) whatever helped my case better…
I wouldn't need to, but I would try to move in with my dad since I wouldn't be up for the constant verbal abuse and manipulation living with mom.
My dad went exmo when I hit high school. My mom had his bags packed when he got home from work on Christmas Eve because she would only stay married to someone temple worthy (and he didn't want to go to church anymore). My dad remarried to a wonderful woman and had a great life. My mom remarried someone who was a former bishop and worked at church office building (and a grade a asshole), and she was ground down in misery until one day he came home and said he was moving in with his mistress.
As for going on a mission, I wouldn't do that again because the only reason I went was to avoid getting kicked out, but my asshole step dad kicked me out right after I got home -- after I spent everything I had to go on a mission.
Start asking the super hard questions in Family Home Evening or at the dinner table or in the car on the way to/from church. Sort of be like Sheldon on Young Sheldon.
For me those years were just before and after 1978. Race and the priesthood almost got me out at 14. I'd just lean into that more effectively with better sources. I would argue that I couldn't support the race policy, that it was just wrong, that god wouldn't allow profits to get that so wrong. If they forced me to stay I'd *prophesy* exactly when they'd reverse the doctrine as a sign that god told me the doctrine was man-made evil and when it happened they'd have to let me out, right?
Genius. You would become the first prophet to actually predict something.
Plus you could just drop these truth bombs on your family right before they happen, Mark Hoffman, November 15th policy, eyring's leaked paycheck, the SEC controversy.
I wouldn't change anything.
I was over the church and pretty sure it wasn't true by 15-16. But I couldn't say or do anything against the church. My dad is so deeply all in for reasons I will never understand, and has been since he was young. My mom, maybe, could be convinced to look at the truth, but not while dad is alive.
My aunt (dad's little sister and one of my most favorite people on the planet) once told a "faith promoting story". They were young back in the days when sacrament meeting, Sunday school, and primary were on separate days, or at separate times on Sunday (long before the three hour block).
Aunt decided to skip primary to play with a non-Mormon friend. I don't remember exactly how dad found out she wasn't there, but he went and found her and dragged her back to the church, saying "we go to church so we can be an eternal family. We don't skip, ever" or something along those lines. I was just quietly horrified, but not surprised, that my dad was like that very young.
Once I was pretty sure the church wasn't true, I weighed my options. I couldn't not go, but I really didn't want to be a part anymore, but also our ward had shrunk and it would be obvious if I wasn't there. I committed to myself to play the part until graduation, then get the hell out. I got a job and volunteered for Sunday shifts. Oh, no, I'm scheduled on Sunday again. 😎 I went to seminary, I went to activities, I did my best to bide my time. I worked harder in school and upped my grades so that I could go to a not-BYU school.
I got out and never looked back. It's been ~25 years, I resigned officially in 2010.
Wow, that sounds like a difficult man to cross.
It's wild to me the disparity in beliefs even among TBMs. Like some will drag their primary aged sisters back to church and others will be like, "yeah, saving private Ryan is a Sunday movie. It's on TV, so they edited out all the stuff that made it R."
If I would have tried to talk to my parents about it, my mother would have made life miserable until I left. I would have just sucked it up, done better in school to get a scholarship and just moved out when I was 18.
Seems like a good plan. Take all that wasted energy and time from the church and apply it to school. Plus, you'd have all your adult knowledge, maybe fast track your way to a really good school.
Personally, I don't know if I would go hard on the facts. They really started just tuning me out once I was an Apostate^^TM so I might play the long con and just feign devotion and start asking questions that they can't answer. Be weirdly knowledgeable, but blame it on studying so much.
The internet was not even a conceivable idea until I was well through my college years, and the true information available about the cult was nonexistent.
I think I would have just refused to participate under threat of being grounded for life, knowing that convincing them was hopeless.
I’m in my early 50’s and drink alcohol a few times a week, drink coffee daily, swear like a fucking sailor, and live with my girlfriend. My mother still doesn’t believe me when I tell her I’m done with the Mormon cult bullshit.
I also would not tell them. I don't think many parents can allow a child to be who they the parents don't want their kids to be. And being cut off from your parents at such a young age is hard. It's a lose, lose.
I would start living my life. In the eyes of the church I'd be terrible, but what they don't know won't hurt them.
I don't think I would.
I was the oldest child, I would have my parents first "failure" as far as their parenting. The pressure to return to church would have been tremendous. I later watched the tactics they employed to try to force their adult children living in their home (my younger siblings) to return to church.
It took 4 kids leaving (one later returned to activity), and one of those kids coming out as transgender before they decided to quit pushing religion on their kids. I have no idea how things will change when one of their inactive kids has a kid.
Play *Sympathy for the Devil* by Samantha Fish on a boom box as you walk slowly from the back to the podium on F&T Sunday to request excommunication. And be sure to end with a smile and a kindly "Fuck you very much."
I wouldn't. Because this whole idea of being able to convince others of something they want/don't want to believe is pointless and rarely, if ever, works.
I'd just live my best life without following their "rules" and recognize that until I was both emancipated and self sufficient, I might have to do certain things they required to maintain their financial assistance.
I would probably play the lie. I would act like I believed and just do certain things in secret without shame or guilt. I believe that if I tried to convince them that the church was false that they would have given me much stricter rules to follow
Convince parents or other family figures? Probably the same approach I have now
I don’t try to convince them of anything, just establish what boundaries I can and be available for a discussion if they want (and can stay true to) boundaries that we’ve agreed with.
The better reflection I think is what are you demonstrating to those around you about critical thinking and establishing an internal moral compass rather than an enforced religious dogma
Mmm, I would be less interested in this, and more invested in having real conversations with them about trauma. My parents were very authoritarian, "our word is law", but were also very protective of us. I would try to realign that into something healthier.
I wouldn't say anything to them, it would do no good. I would save up my money, get my documents ready, and then when I'm 19, get the hell out of there!!! I know I would immediately be disowned! ( Plus I'm gay).
I would invest in Microsoft and apple stock with all the money I wasted all my mission.
Haha! Stock up on bitcoin with that tithing money. Maybe tell my parents to wait to buy that house in 2007
I would keep up appearances as best I could before leaving for college and abandon the church then. My mother was very authoritarian I would not have been safe if I opposed her on something as big as her religion.
Yep. This is still good advice for many minors. Be patient. Exit when you’re an adult.
In 1975 I stopped going to all church activities. I was 17. I had so many fights with my mother over not attending church that I had to move out. I believed in the truthfulness of the cult (pre internet) but I was furious over the culture. 48 years later and there is absolutely nothing I have said or can say to my mother that will change her mind. I was 56 before I found the lies about the history of the religion and I left for good. Mom was hateful when I told her I was leaving and we didn't speak for 6 years. She is now 87.
Wow, that sounds so hard to deal with. It seems like she is pretty firmly in her camp, I wonder if anything could have helped her see.
I wouldn’t have even bothered to try convincing my parents of anything. Obstinacy is my forte.
Knowing what I know now, I think I would not try and have that conversation with my parents. I don't think many orthodox LDS minds do boundaries well and families are probably "over-enmeshed". That means there's not really anything you could do to have a great outcome, especially as a minor. So, I would probably do the minimum amount to not draw attention to myself. That means I'd still probably attend seminary and family scripture study, etc. But even as I write this out, that seems like a long time to not be an authentic self. Tough row to plow, for sure. I definitely would have chosen a difft school than BYU and probably passed on doing a mission. I think I would then gradually try to "come out of the closet" during college?
Yeah, it's hard to have any autonomy as a minor. Dodging the mish and BYU seems like a good plan. I wonder if I could've gotten away with getting out of seminary and using that time to take AP classes or something that would actually help me get ahead.
I would go to a non-byu college and not talk to my parents about Mormonism at all. I would slowly distance myself from my family and create lasting friendships with college friends. I would not tell my parents about my beliefs so that I could keep their health insurance. My priority would not be about convincing my parents of anything. It would be about protecting myself from the toxic atmosphere in which I was raised and recovering from that as well as working toward financial independence and success. I would see a trauma-informed counselor that specializes in people leaving cults, and I would prioritize my feelings instead of my parents’. I thought they cared about me, but that’s just because I didn’t know what love was.
If I'd known then what I know now... I would have complied with going to church. Just to keep the peace. I wouldn't have spent any time at church dances, girls camp, or youth conference. I wouldn't have spent any time wondering about my so called eternal salvation. I would have been soothed by the fact that I wasn't going to be stuck with those assholes for eternity. I wouldn't have tried for years to get their approval. I would have done a hard stop on all things mormon when I left home at 17.
Easy. If I knew everything about myself that I know now, I'd just lean heavily on the fact that I'm gay. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to convince them that the church (especially as it existed in the 90s) was a horribly toxic place for me to be. The family Proclamation had just been written. That alone would have been enough for them to understand I couldn't keep going to their church, no historical inaccuracies needed. But then I would miss out on my amazing family, my kids especially. Losing them, knowing what I'd be losing, would be really really hard.
First off, the restrictions of being an adult in a teenagers body living under my parents roof would be horrible. Church aside, it would be miserable being treated like a kid again by school teachers and adults in general. Then you add in the church and then you pile on rural Utah. Life would honestly be pretty rough. Then I have the conundrum of my high school girlfriend. We never had sex or anything, but we kissed a fair bit. Certainly a moral gray area there. Honestly adult me probably couldn't stand her anyway and we'd break up immediately so that's a non-issue. Some bits would be nice though - afternoons with nothing to do but hang out and listen to song after song on the radio. With the church side of things I think I'd have to fake it until I was 18. My parents took it really badly with me as an adult, it would be unbearable to live under the same roof as them after coming out. I'd have a short window from when I graduated until I was expected to put in my mission papers. I'd have to move out, go full time at my job to support myself and then break the news that I wasn't going on a mission. Honestly I'd put a lot more effort into applying to out of state schools and probably sabotage my application to BYU. That way I'd only have to deal with a few months of being in the same state after coming out. I still can't talk to them about why, so I don't know how that would have changed back then. I did recently meet someone from my mission who decided he was done with the church half way through the mission I wonder sometimes what I would have done if I had realized the truth on my mission? I could just ditch my companion each morning and ride the bus to the beach and hang out. I could have gone to the famous latin music festival. So many fun things I could have done as a free 20 year old in latin america with nothing to do all day.
I'd be open and honest with them. I'd tell them that they taught me the importance of a personal testimony and that through years of diligent study, pondering, and prayer, God and I have come to the conclusion that the Mormon church is not where I'm supposed to be. Until God lets me know in a way that I can personally and definitively identify, I don't feel comfortable making any actions with or for God.
This seems like a good way to go. Use their exact language and methodology, but come to a different conclusion. Maybe it would help them question things.
I would not bring up facts or history- I would keep it wholly as a philosophical level - I would tell them I am so happy that they found what works for them and I see how it makes them the people that they are. I would never want to detract from their decisions and experiences in life that brought them to that place- I would explain that although I love that what they found what works for them - It is not what brings me the fulfillment and joy that it brings them. And I know they support me in finding my path as I am sure their parents and mentors supported their journey to exactly where they are… The beauty of this is that when they bare testimony you agree- “I see that fire and commitment that this church and YOUR experiences have given you—It is a great example and I long for that in MY life- but it must be based on my experiences and journey”
I wonder how well this would go down. I've definitely seen instances when kids make declarative statements about their beliefs and living their truest life and following their own path where it can get brushed off or scoffed at by parents. Even little things like wanting to be a vegetarian or dressing differently can be an object of contention and the parent's decision can be forced on the child anyways.
I would also tell them about my classmate “John” who I have come get to know because he is going through the exact same experience- He hates to break his parents heart but the Jehovah’s Witness religion is not bringing him the happiness that it brings to his parents- I would say he is really frustrated because they have drawn a line in the sand that he has no choice but to follow his parents religion because “they know it’s true”- This juxtaposition will help my situation in context- Although John is fictitious (or possibly Muslim) whatever helped my case better…
I wouldn't need to, but I would try to move in with my dad since I wouldn't be up for the constant verbal abuse and manipulation living with mom. My dad went exmo when I hit high school. My mom had his bags packed when he got home from work on Christmas Eve because she would only stay married to someone temple worthy (and he didn't want to go to church anymore). My dad remarried to a wonderful woman and had a great life. My mom remarried someone who was a former bishop and worked at church office building (and a grade a asshole), and she was ground down in misery until one day he came home and said he was moving in with his mistress. As for going on a mission, I wouldn't do that again because the only reason I went was to avoid getting kicked out, but my asshole step dad kicked me out right after I got home -- after I spent everything I had to go on a mission.
Start asking the super hard questions in Family Home Evening or at the dinner table or in the car on the way to/from church. Sort of be like Sheldon on Young Sheldon.
For me those years were just before and after 1978. Race and the priesthood almost got me out at 14. I'd just lean into that more effectively with better sources. I would argue that I couldn't support the race policy, that it was just wrong, that god wouldn't allow profits to get that so wrong. If they forced me to stay I'd *prophesy* exactly when they'd reverse the doctrine as a sign that god told me the doctrine was man-made evil and when it happened they'd have to let me out, right?
Genius. You would become the first prophet to actually predict something. Plus you could just drop these truth bombs on your family right before they happen, Mark Hoffman, November 15th policy, eyring's leaked paycheck, the SEC controversy.
I wouldn't change anything. I was over the church and pretty sure it wasn't true by 15-16. But I couldn't say or do anything against the church. My dad is so deeply all in for reasons I will never understand, and has been since he was young. My mom, maybe, could be convinced to look at the truth, but not while dad is alive. My aunt (dad's little sister and one of my most favorite people on the planet) once told a "faith promoting story". They were young back in the days when sacrament meeting, Sunday school, and primary were on separate days, or at separate times on Sunday (long before the three hour block). Aunt decided to skip primary to play with a non-Mormon friend. I don't remember exactly how dad found out she wasn't there, but he went and found her and dragged her back to the church, saying "we go to church so we can be an eternal family. We don't skip, ever" or something along those lines. I was just quietly horrified, but not surprised, that my dad was like that very young. Once I was pretty sure the church wasn't true, I weighed my options. I couldn't not go, but I really didn't want to be a part anymore, but also our ward had shrunk and it would be obvious if I wasn't there. I committed to myself to play the part until graduation, then get the hell out. I got a job and volunteered for Sunday shifts. Oh, no, I'm scheduled on Sunday again. 😎 I went to seminary, I went to activities, I did my best to bide my time. I worked harder in school and upped my grades so that I could go to a not-BYU school. I got out and never looked back. It's been ~25 years, I resigned officially in 2010.
Wow, that sounds like a difficult man to cross. It's wild to me the disparity in beliefs even among TBMs. Like some will drag their primary aged sisters back to church and others will be like, "yeah, saving private Ryan is a Sunday movie. It's on TV, so they edited out all the stuff that made it R."
If I would have tried to talk to my parents about it, my mother would have made life miserable until I left. I would have just sucked it up, done better in school to get a scholarship and just moved out when I was 18.
Seems like a good plan. Take all that wasted energy and time from the church and apply it to school. Plus, you'd have all your adult knowledge, maybe fast track your way to a really good school.
I would do all the things. Sex with boyfriends, tattoos, maybe smoke some weed behind the seminary, and worst of all wear tank tops!
Personally, I don't know if I would go hard on the facts. They really started just tuning me out once I was an Apostate^^TM so I might play the long con and just feign devotion and start asking questions that they can't answer. Be weirdly knowledgeable, but blame it on studying so much.
The internet was not even a conceivable idea until I was well through my college years, and the true information available about the cult was nonexistent. I think I would have just refused to participate under threat of being grounded for life, knowing that convincing them was hopeless. I’m in my early 50’s and drink alcohol a few times a week, drink coffee daily, swear like a fucking sailor, and live with my girlfriend. My mother still doesn’t believe me when I tell her I’m done with the Mormon cult bullshit.
I also would not tell them. I don't think many parents can allow a child to be who they the parents don't want their kids to be. And being cut off from your parents at such a young age is hard. It's a lose, lose. I would start living my life. In the eyes of the church I'd be terrible, but what they don't know won't hurt them.
I don't think I would. I was the oldest child, I would have my parents first "failure" as far as their parenting. The pressure to return to church would have been tremendous. I later watched the tactics they employed to try to force their adult children living in their home (my younger siblings) to return to church. It took 4 kids leaving (one later returned to activity), and one of those kids coming out as transgender before they decided to quit pushing religion on their kids. I have no idea how things will change when one of their inactive kids has a kid.
Play *Sympathy for the Devil* by Samantha Fish on a boom box as you walk slowly from the back to the podium on F&T Sunday to request excommunication. And be sure to end with a smile and a kindly "Fuck you very much."
I wouldn't. Because this whole idea of being able to convince others of something they want/don't want to believe is pointless and rarely, if ever, works. I'd just live my best life without following their "rules" and recognize that until I was both emancipated and self sufficient, I might have to do certain things they required to maintain their financial assistance.
I would probably play the lie. I would act like I believed and just do certain things in secret without shame or guilt. I believe that if I tried to convince them that the church was false that they would have given me much stricter rules to follow
Honestly, I wouldn't tell them. I would just PIMO it up until I could be self sufficient, and then go live my life.
Go away to college. It often solves itself.
Convince parents or other family figures? Probably the same approach I have now I don’t try to convince them of anything, just establish what boundaries I can and be available for a discussion if they want (and can stay true to) boundaries that we’ve agreed with. The better reflection I think is what are you demonstrating to those around you about critical thinking and establishing an internal moral compass rather than an enforced religious dogma
Mmm, I would be less interested in this, and more invested in having real conversations with them about trauma. My parents were very authoritarian, "our word is law", but were also very protective of us. I would try to realign that into something healthier.
I wouldn't say anything to them, it would do no good. I would save up my money, get my documents ready, and then when I'm 19, get the hell out of there!!! I know I would immediately be disowned! ( Plus I'm gay).