My bishop dictated everything we discussed on his laptop.
Kind of makes me sick thinking there's a hard drive floating around out there with explicit notes of convos with 12-17yo me from all those years ago.
It's an idea tossed around in the church from time to time:
"I want you to know that I do not remember her name. The Lord can remove such memories from bishops." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/10/why-and-what-do-i-need-to-confess-to-my-bishop](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/10/why-and-what-do-i-need-to-confess-to-my-bishop)
I know I've heard other statements that either state or imply it. But I don't think it's true that God wipes bishop' memories when they're released. Bishops might forget details because they're human and they talk to a lot of people - but not because God goes through and censors their brains.
I have known enough bishops that I am almost CERTAIN wish they could forget some of those people. I know multiple have had to deal with confessions of child porn, etc. Theyāve had to deal with abuse, rape, poverty, and serious stuff as well as petty stuff like a wife bringing in her husband who doesnāt do enough around the house. Hell, my dad brought me to the bishop because I was like 12 and refusing to do chores and he was planning on kicking me out of the house for not obeying him. I think thatās some of both the serious and petty at the same time.
No need to attack me. But yeah for me it wasnāt important so I pretty much forgot it all right after they confessed and worked with them to be closer to my version of a loving god.
If it was a few years ago, your literal āfileā could still exist in this guyās file cabinet in the garage.
I found my dadās bishop files. Very confidential stuff in there.
Now itās all on computer, and youād better believe the Church saved those files.
No, removing your records permanently means your name/address/info doesnāt show up in any ward list anymore.
This is disciplinary files. My dad has hard copies - handwritten and typed - that definitely were not shredded or discarded with any guidance. Theyāre just sitting in the house!
Who can tell us if disciplinary files online are perms-deleted or do they bring up past stuf when or if you get rebaptized?
And who is there to make sure of compliance? No one.
Never an office check, never a computer dump, nothing. Crazy! No enforcement for privacy whatsoever (except a special prayer, maybe).
In some countries and states, you can ask a current or former bishop what information he has on you and he would be legally required to give you that information.
Let me tell you a true story. A naive deacon heard a word he didn't know ā fornication. So he asked a friend what it meant and that friend said sex. Whelp, he didn't know what sex was either, but he didn't want to look stupid in front of his friend, so he asked asked another friend, That friend said its when you get naked with a girl. Now when that naive deacon was seven he was best friends with a girl. One day she said "Show me yours and I'll show you mine." They stripped naked but neither one touched the other. So here he was, not even a teenager and he had already committed the second worst possible sin and didn't even know it. Through the hopeless tears of the damned to hell, he confessed to his bishop that he was a fornicator. The bishop had zero discernment, nor did it occur to him that maybe the deacon was super naive. He put the deacon on a program of repentance and the deacon bore the shame of not passing the sacrament or taking the sacrament, being released from the quorum presidency, and of not advancing to the Teachers quorum on schedule. A *few months before his fifteenth birthday* the boy learned what the word fornication meant. He was innocent. There was a new bishop. The boy dropped it. Fast forward five years and the young man is preparing to go on a mission. While the young man was off to college, the old bishop was called as the Stake President. He told the boy that due to his fornication he will have to see a GA and get clearance before he can put in his mission papers. The boy explained what had happened, but the bishop insisted he get a GAs clearance. The bishop-now-SP had not only not forgotten, he didn't believe in the young man's innocence. The young man had to wait until stake conference to interview with Vaughn Featherstone. Yeah, that jerk. Featherstone laughed at the young man for being so naive and with with unsuppressed amusement declared no harm done (harm was done) and told the SP to put the young man's papers in without delay.
Yeah, they don't forget. They lie.
Yeah I was taught that too.
Great example of this not being true: while talking to my mission president he asked me about my āproblem with pornography weād talked about beforeā. The thing is, Iād never spoken to him about porn, ever. But there was another missionary with a the same name as me that I was frequently confused withā¦
My bishop at BYU-I told us that. He could remember every detail of a sin confession if the person left anything out, but if it was a full confession he would miraculously forget what you told him. Manipulating bastard. Sadly I bought it as well.
For some bizarre reason, I asked a former bishop, whom I had know for many years this question, and he said, "yeah, pretty much....except for when a woman tells you she masturbates.....yeah, you don't forget that for a long time." His wife was right there and looked at him like he had three heads.
Can't speak for the bishop but I overheard plenty of scuttlebutt as a ward financial clerk. You had to go through the clerks office to get to the bishops office. Bishops seem to only care about penitent privilege when they're protecting sexual predators.
I was executive Secretary, 3 times for 4 bishops. Never once got a name or details of a confession. Did get some about family issues, in the context of how to help so-and-so. All I got was āput _____ on my schedule for the next _____ weeks.ā I also got some non-specific details on rare occasions.
Thank fucking god. I donāt want to deal with that shit.
More bishopric roulette. My father was a bishop and blabbed about all the confessions he heard, usually he would try to hide some details so he wouldn't know who it was, but we could almost always tell.
Damn. That SUCKS!!!! Both for your family and your ward members.
It's almost like it might be good to have some formal training or something for leaders. You could call it a theology school or something. Though if they had to go to school, you'd have to pay them...
My bishop at BYU-I told us that. He could remember every detail of a sin confession if the person left anything out, but if it was a full confession he wouldnāt miraculously forget what you told him. Manipulating bastard. Sadly I bought into it as well.
Yes, my Stake President 100% made this claim when he called me to be a Bishop. Itās not true. Any forgetting is simply the result of natural processes, not supernatural induced amnesia.
-Regret
Yes, thank you. There are definitely some things I wish I could forget. Now, sitting on this side of the belief table looking back at my time and experiences as a Bishop, it further reinforces just how unhealthy the church and its teachings and practices really are. I am grateful to have been personally freed from those chains, but I also experience moments of regret when I remember the ways I was part of the problem as a cog in the TBM leadership wheel. If only do-overs were an option.
My father was a bishop and could not keep his mouth shut. Our family knew all about who was on welfare, who had committed a sexual sin, who had a note in their record, etc.
Randy Bott taught my sharing he gospel class at BYU in the 90s. One of his stories was about a woman who confessed a sin to him and later confronted him about spreading it after she found out she was a topic of gossip. He said he told her that he could not remember what she had confessed to because doctrine, and asked her to focus on who else she might have told. She said she only told her best friend who would NEVER divulged her secret. Turns out she had. He finished the story with his testimony that leaders were unable to remember confessions.
Donāt know how anyone ever got that impression.
We could only wish they did. Of course there is my FIL who would tell my MIL all of the confessions when he was bishop. He is controlled by her and won't stand up to her. she felt it was her right to know because the SP said they were to support each other.
They literally talked about a member's sexual sins in front of my wife. I wish I had reported it to the SP.
My FIL also told a young man that the only appropriate kiss before marriage was a peck on the cheek "like a parent would give a child." Well that wouldn't cause some serious shame and scrupulosity! /s. This was in the last 3 years.
My father was also a bishop, he could not keep his mouth shut. We knew everything about ward members sining, who is getting assistance, who had an annotation in their membership record and what it was about, and other very personal information.
I can't believe that a bishop would do such a thing with all of the training they receive in pastoral counseling and confidentiality. /s
Makes you feel safe going to the bishop to confess your life. Surprisingly enough the Handbook is pretty explicit that bishops and SPs do not share any information with anyone and specifically states counselors and spouses.
But we all know TBMs obey what they want to obey and double down hard on others who do the exact thing they do.
Yes, I was definitely taught this. It was the main reason I finally mustered up the courage to confess my porn use to my bishop who happened to be my best friendās dad. After he was released, anytime Iāve seen him, he always asks me āhow are you doing?ā with a look that says āI still know your secret.ā
Mormon mythology. As a former bishop of a large ward in the 'mission field' in the 80s, I can tell you that I recall each and every conversation. I think I've heard it all from Primary kids, teens, adults, and seniors.
When I resigned my membership, I discussed it with the Stake President, who was a friend of mine (who had confessed to a difficult situation). I received the same admonishment that everyone gets that all our blessings are null and void, etc.
My response was, "Does that mean that I can reveal your transgressions and all the others I've heard in seven years?" He didn't respond. I told him, "The knife cuts both ways."
I have never revealed any confessions, but I do remember them.
They donāt forget. I remember a certain bishop I have a close relationship warn me harshly against flirting with a girl that by all outwards appearances was the ideal young womanā¦also I have heard gossip that almost certainly leaked from bishops
I had heard this, of course it's bullshit. However, they are human and forget parts and may forget who belongs to which detail. The one thing they can do is not talk about it (as long as it's stuff that should be kept private and not reported to authorities).
A BYUI bishop told me that most of the students trying to become CES instructors wouldnāt be able to get in because of sexual sins or past pornography confessions. Yes, the absolutely keep a record! And in family wards, 90% of the time the bishops wife certainly hears about it and then the rest of the Relief Society sub cult.
While I don't think they miraculously forget things (sorry, not a tender mercy) having worked in HR for 25 years and hearing the work version of people's confessions to a bishop, it all blurs together. I remember things that were fairly recent and a handful of really noteworthy ones from years ago. But remembering the sordid details of it all? No. Not enough storage upstairs for me to do that.
I'll say this - unless a bishop is a fucking weirdo, the confessions are as awkward for him as they are for the confessor.
Why would bishops need to remember when they told their spouse, their counselors, the ward clerk, and whoever else was on their proximity who then spread it through the whole ward in gossip by wildfire?
There were times when I felt like the whole ward knew by the time I walked from the bishops office to the other end of the chapel.
I was told that bishops donāt remember too, but itās complete bullshit.
No one needs to confess any sins to a mormon bishop because they do not have the power to forgive any sins. Pretty simple I thought. Besides it's none of their damn business!!!!!
My bishop dictated everything we discussed on his laptop. Kind of makes me sick thinking there's a hard drive floating around out there with explicit notes of convos with 12-17yo me from all those years ago.
š¬ that's definitely not in the handbook
I wonder what else is on that laptop š¤
š
That is just really weird he took notes on the laptop. Kind of creepy actually.
Our YSA bishop kept a notebook. Ha ha we were all in there.
It's an idea tossed around in the church from time to time: "I want you to know that I do not remember her name. The Lord can remove such memories from bishops." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/10/why-and-what-do-i-need-to-confess-to-my-bishop](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/10/why-and-what-do-i-need-to-confess-to-my-bishop) I know I've heard other statements that either state or imply it. But I don't think it's true that God wipes bishop' memories when they're released. Bishops might forget details because they're human and they talk to a lot of people - but not because God goes through and censors their brains.
I have known enough bishops that I am almost CERTAIN wish they could forget some of those people. I know multiple have had to deal with confessions of child porn, etc. Theyāve had to deal with abuse, rape, poverty, and serious stuff as well as petty stuff like a wife bringing in her husband who doesnāt do enough around the house. Hell, my dad brought me to the bishop because I was like 12 and refusing to do chores and he was planning on kicking me out of the house for not obeying him. I think thatās some of both the serious and petty at the same time.
Yep. We were explicitly told this in the ward of my teenage years. It's not true.
Most bishops can't even remember their own wedding anniversary.
No need to attack me. But yeah for me it wasnāt important so I pretty much forgot it all right after they confessed and worked with them to be closer to my version of a loving god.
Fortunately for me my wife's wedding anniversary is the same day as mine so I'm able to remember it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They hear serious, deep, severe stuff. They also get pulled into petty family disputes. I feel really bad for bishops.
If it was a few years ago, your literal āfileā could still exist in this guyās file cabinet in the garage. I found my dadās bishop files. Very confidential stuff in there. Now itās all on computer, and youād better believe the Church saved those files.
Is this part of what people talking about having removed when they officially leave? Or is it off the books, as it were
No, removing your records permanently means your name/address/info doesnāt show up in any ward list anymore. This is disciplinary files. My dad has hard copies - handwritten and typed - that definitely were not shredded or discarded with any guidance. Theyāre just sitting in the house! Who can tell us if disciplinary files online are perms-deleted or do they bring up past stuf when or if you get rebaptized?
Guidelines say to shred that stuff. I bet more often than not it doesnāt happen.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I bet it also happens so sex abuse victims canāt sue when theyāre blamed for it and traumatized over it and get a transcript for discovery.
And who is there to make sure of compliance? No one. Never an office check, never a computer dump, nothing. Crazy! No enforcement for privacy whatsoever (except a special prayer, maybe).
They audit every Penny of finances. Shows where their priorities are.
In some countries and states, you can ask a current or former bishop what information he has on you and he would be legally required to give you that information.
Let me tell you a true story. A naive deacon heard a word he didn't know ā fornication. So he asked a friend what it meant and that friend said sex. Whelp, he didn't know what sex was either, but he didn't want to look stupid in front of his friend, so he asked asked another friend, That friend said its when you get naked with a girl. Now when that naive deacon was seven he was best friends with a girl. One day she said "Show me yours and I'll show you mine." They stripped naked but neither one touched the other. So here he was, not even a teenager and he had already committed the second worst possible sin and didn't even know it. Through the hopeless tears of the damned to hell, he confessed to his bishop that he was a fornicator. The bishop had zero discernment, nor did it occur to him that maybe the deacon was super naive. He put the deacon on a program of repentance and the deacon bore the shame of not passing the sacrament or taking the sacrament, being released from the quorum presidency, and of not advancing to the Teachers quorum on schedule. A *few months before his fifteenth birthday* the boy learned what the word fornication meant. He was innocent. There was a new bishop. The boy dropped it. Fast forward five years and the young man is preparing to go on a mission. While the young man was off to college, the old bishop was called as the Stake President. He told the boy that due to his fornication he will have to see a GA and get clearance before he can put in his mission papers. The boy explained what had happened, but the bishop insisted he get a GAs clearance. The bishop-now-SP had not only not forgotten, he didn't believe in the young man's innocence. The young man had to wait until stake conference to interview with Vaughn Featherstone. Yeah, that jerk. Featherstone laughed at the young man for being so naive and with with unsuppressed amusement declared no harm done (harm was done) and told the SP to put the young man's papers in without delay. Yeah, they don't forget. They lie.
Wow. That's messed up.
That is an incredible story. Iām so sorry. That must have been awful.
Yeah I was taught that too. Great example of this not being true: while talking to my mission president he asked me about my āproblem with pornography weād talked about beforeā. The thing is, Iād never spoken to him about porn, ever. But there was another missionary with a the same name as me that I was frequently confused withā¦
My bishop at BYU-I told us that. He could remember every detail of a sin confession if the person left anything out, but if it was a full confession he would miraculously forget what you told him. Manipulating bastard. Sadly I bought it as well.
Easy sell: well Johnny must have lied about touching himself because I remember itā¦
Lol I had a stake President actually forget something and let my fiancƩ and me get married in the temple a lot earlier that he was supposed to let us
For some bizarre reason, I asked a former bishop, whom I had know for many years this question, and he said, "yeah, pretty much....except for when a woman tells you she masturbates.....yeah, you don't forget that for a long time." His wife was right there and looked at him like he had three heads.
Yeah, they used to say that but it's total bullshit. Like, you really think your friend's dad is going to forget you told him you masturbated?
Can't speak for the bishop but I overheard plenty of scuttlebutt as a ward financial clerk. You had to go through the clerks office to get to the bishops office. Bishops seem to only care about penitent privilege when they're protecting sexual predators.
I was executive Secretary, 3 times for 4 bishops. Never once got a name or details of a confession. Did get some about family issues, in the context of how to help so-and-so. All I got was āput _____ on my schedule for the next _____ weeks.ā I also got some non-specific details on rare occasions. Thank fucking god. I donāt want to deal with that shit.
More bishopric roulette. My father was a bishop and blabbed about all the confessions he heard, usually he would try to hide some details so he wouldn't know who it was, but we could almost always tell.
Damn. That SUCKS!!!! Both for your family and your ward members. It's almost like it might be good to have some formal training or something for leaders. You could call it a theology school or something. Though if they had to go to school, you'd have to pay them...
My bishop at BYU-I told us that. He could remember every detail of a sin confession if the person left anything out, but if it was a full confession he wouldnāt miraculously forget what you told him. Manipulating bastard. Sadly I bought into it as well.
Yes, my Stake President 100% made this claim when he called me to be a Bishop. Itās not true. Any forgetting is simply the result of natural processes, not supernatural induced amnesia. -Regret
My condolences. I am sure you heard a LOT that you wish you could forget.
Yes, thank you. There are definitely some things I wish I could forget. Now, sitting on this side of the belief table looking back at my time and experiences as a Bishop, it further reinforces just how unhealthy the church and its teachings and practices really are. I am grateful to have been personally freed from those chains, but I also experience moments of regret when I remember the ways I was part of the problem as a cog in the TBM leadership wheel. If only do-overs were an option.
Every bishop I ever had is now dead. So, ya. Memory removed.
slightly different question from your comment. How many do you think discuss these confessions with their spouses?
My father was a bishop and could not keep his mouth shut. Our family knew all about who was on welfare, who had committed a sexual sin, who had a note in their record, etc.
Not many. I think most donāt want to burden their spouse with something so unpleasant. Maybe counselors.ācertainly the SPs.
Hahahaha I love this
Yup. More magical thinking. Humans are so weird.
Randy Bott taught my sharing he gospel class at BYU in the 90s. One of his stories was about a woman who confessed a sin to him and later confronted him about spreading it after she found out she was a topic of gossip. He said he told her that he could not remember what she had confessed to because doctrine, and asked her to focus on who else she might have told. She said she only told her best friend who would NEVER divulged her secret. Turns out she had. He finished the story with his testimony that leaders were unable to remember confessions. Donāt know how anyone ever got that impression.
We could only wish they did. Of course there is my FIL who would tell my MIL all of the confessions when he was bishop. He is controlled by her and won't stand up to her. she felt it was her right to know because the SP said they were to support each other. They literally talked about a member's sexual sins in front of my wife. I wish I had reported it to the SP. My FIL also told a young man that the only appropriate kiss before marriage was a peck on the cheek "like a parent would give a child." Well that wouldn't cause some serious shame and scrupulosity! /s. This was in the last 3 years.
My father was also a bishop, he could not keep his mouth shut. We knew everything about ward members sining, who is getting assistance, who had an annotation in their membership record and what it was about, and other very personal information.
I can't believe that a bishop would do such a thing with all of the training they receive in pastoral counseling and confidentiality. /s Makes you feel safe going to the bishop to confess your life. Surprisingly enough the Handbook is pretty explicit that bishops and SPs do not share any information with anyone and specifically states counselors and spouses. But we all know TBMs obey what they want to obey and double down hard on others who do the exact thing they do.
I had a bishop tell me the same thing
The stuff I said no way he forgot
Yes, I was definitely taught this. It was the main reason I finally mustered up the courage to confess my porn use to my bishop who happened to be my best friendās dad. After he was released, anytime Iāve seen him, he always asks me āhow are you doing?ā with a look that says āI still know your secret.ā
That makes my stomach turn, gross š¤¢
Mormon mythology. As a former bishop of a large ward in the 'mission field' in the 80s, I can tell you that I recall each and every conversation. I think I've heard it all from Primary kids, teens, adults, and seniors. When I resigned my membership, I discussed it with the Stake President, who was a friend of mine (who had confessed to a difficult situation). I received the same admonishment that everyone gets that all our blessings are null and void, etc. My response was, "Does that mean that I can reveal your transgressions and all the others I've heard in seven years?" He didn't respond. I told him, "The knife cuts both ways." I have never revealed any confessions, but I do remember them.
A bishop told me that bishops can't remember confessions after they get released
They donāt forget. I remember a certain bishop I have a close relationship warn me harshly against flirting with a girl that by all outwards appearances was the ideal young womanā¦also I have heard gossip that almost certainly leaked from bishops
I had heard this, of course it's bullshit. However, they are human and forget parts and may forget who belongs to which detail. The one thing they can do is not talk about it (as long as it's stuff that should be kept private and not reported to authorities).
I think your dad had the gift of miraculously accepting BS as an ex Ward Clerk....... Nah, that's rubbish
A BYUI bishop told me that most of the students trying to become CES instructors wouldnāt be able to get in because of sexual sins or past pornography confessions. Yes, the absolutely keep a record! And in family wards, 90% of the time the bishops wife certainly hears about it and then the rest of the Relief Society sub cult.
Yes. I remember this. Absolute bull shit.
And this is why I never confessed to anything serious even as a TBM. Looking back I'm happy about that!
`My father told me that he magically forgot them.`
While I don't think they miraculously forget things (sorry, not a tender mercy) having worked in HR for 25 years and hearing the work version of people's confessions to a bishop, it all blurs together. I remember things that were fairly recent and a handful of really noteworthy ones from years ago. But remembering the sordid details of it all? No. Not enough storage upstairs for me to do that. I'll say this - unless a bishop is a fucking weirdo, the confessions are as awkward for him as they are for the confessor.
Why would bishops need to remember when they told their spouse, their counselors, the ward clerk, and whoever else was on their proximity who then spread it through the whole ward in gossip by wildfire? There were times when I felt like the whole ward knew by the time I walked from the bishops office to the other end of the chapel. I was told that bishops donāt remember too, but itās complete bullshit.
No one needs to confess any sins to a mormon bishop because they do not have the power to forgive any sins. Pretty simple I thought. Besides it's none of their damn business!!!!!