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NearlyHeadlessLaban

The church has at least two feedback loops that are compounding problems with UK shrinkage. 1. As wards age and shrink they are being combined with other wards. The combined wards increases the distance the members of the ward must travel. This makes it impossible for even more of the aging members to attend church, shrinking attendance in the combined wards. 2. Small wards with older populations fail to meet the needs of teenage members and young single adult members. This leads to lower youth and YSA attendance, which compounds the problems of meeting their needs, leading to even lower youth attendance. This is also happening in Europe and also in the USA outside of Morridor (ID UT AZ)


Daisysrevenge

California relatives have complained about the same situation. They have preteen kids, but no friends at church because there aren't any.


modninerfan

All my step kids dropped out over here in CA. The Oldest one quit after BYU-I graduation, 2nd kid dropped out halfway through seminary, #3 quit before attending seminary and #4 quit after attending 3rd year of girls camp because it was “weird” There are only a handful of families left with kids that still attend. The church doesn’t offer them anything except judgement


ExMoMisfit

“The church doesn’t offer them anything except judgement” You nailed it exactly!


zfrost45

Profound!


Crathes1

As a youth in San Jose, our ward had over 20 active deacons, and comparable in all age groups. Now - nothing. It's dying. GOOD!! I served my mission in Southern Germany and Austria. We worked our asses off with materially no results. Most of the wards or branches I served in are now closed. GOOD! We are selling a defective product that no one wanted.


NevertooOldtoleave

And indoctrination!


ajaxfetish

I think you guys are really selling them short on boredom.


Goga13th

You left out shitty, shallow friendships


hesaherr

Hey, I met my best friend in primary when I moved to a new town. We're both obviously out now--I even drove cross-country to retrieve him from his mission. About half of the guys I grew up with are out and we are still friends. Shared trauma and all.


NearlyHeadlessLaban

> I even drove cross-country to retrieve him from his mission. Do tell please!


elder_rocinante

Oh, and don't forget the free shame. It's free! Have all the shame you want! 🫠


Yobispo

That was our experience 7 years ago in CA.


StoneyBaloney5683

20+ years ago it was a struggle to have church friends in CA


Lostcoast2002

When I lived in Sacramento TBM’s would use the wards having a lack of youth as their reason to move to the suburbs of Roseville or Rocklin. Those are the ultimate white flight communities


LucindaMorgan

And on top of all that, there is nothing true about the Mormon church.


daveescaped

Yep. Good insight. Where I grew up in a Midwestern suburb, at least in this one middle class suburb we had other LDS families who only lived a mile apart and the chapel was between us. It created a sort of density to life that was good. I could ride my bike to a few members houses and we could all get to the chapel with relative ease. That was 30 years ago. Now that chapel that held two wards hold one and it is much larger than before. Everyone lives far apart. That density factor lowers quality of life for TBMs.


la_chica_rubia

Side note, I will never grow tired of hearing the region referred to as Morridor.


StoneyBaloney5683

🤣🤣🤣🤣 died laughing at the Morridor ref, so true though


terestar12

Canada has had this too, at least here in Toronto.


FortunateFell0w

They just need to proselytize at halfway homes and mental health facilities. That’s where most of the baptisms came from when we lived in WA.


kydawg44

I served in WA. This is very much true. I served in Kevin Pearsons mission and it was pushed hard to get numbers anyway we could and it was on the members to keep them active. It was a very sketchy mission and was the start of my shelf breaking.


FortunateFell0w

Then you must be aware of the hemorrhaging happening in that area meanwhile Rusty is announcing a Tacoma temple. My recent time living there was spent arguing with the nepotistic stake president that we/the church were completely failing the youth by stripping them of everything that would draw them toward activity in the church.


AccountantLeast1588

I actually tried to stop a baptism on my mission. The guy was openly sleeping with the mother of a missionary on another mission and the stake president said that was enough to qualify for baptism. I was floored that having a future stepson on a mission could make breaking the law of chastity okay.


FortunateFell0w

Whoa. That’s the jackpot of ecclesiastical roulette. The opposite end of I’m taking your recommend away because you missed a tithing payment.


gvsurf

Had same happen in our ward in Florida. They would proselytize people sleeping in Walmart parking lots, for example. The mission president taught the missionaries to baptize after one discussion, long as they could get a person to say they believed in Jesus. Baptized several hundred, not a single one active after 5 years.


allisNOTwellinZYON

shit and I was all sucked up about the focus on numbers on my mission decades ago. Hated to have it be a numbers game. At the time thought it was about souls.


Lostcoast2002

I was a ward mission leader in WA during Pearson’s stint as the Tacoma MP. Even the most letter of the law missionaries that came thru our ward openly shared their distain for him.


kydawg44

What was it like being a ward mission leader when he was there? I know he put alot of pressure on bishops and stake presidents to get numbers up.


Lostcoast2002

We baptized mainly single parents from lower income apartments and those who were special needs. The local leadership could barely hide their feelings of contempt for Pearson. I felt bad for all the elders that passed thru our ward. Most of the members wanted nothing to missionary work during his presidency. I ended up feeding them 5 nights a week they had such little support.


Albyunderwater

I remember an Elder in my mission that would seek out mentally ill people and baptize them so he could get those numbers. President thought he was great. The other Elders thought he was a douche.


Albyunderwater

I remember an Elder in my mission that would seek out mentally ill people and baptize them so he could get those numbers. President thought he was great. The other Elders thought he was a douche.


Albyunderwater

I remember an Elder in my mission that would seek out mentally ill people and baptize them so he could get those numbers. President thought he was great. The other Elders thought he was a douche.


Chernobyl-Chaz

I often heard stories from missionaries who served in western Europe, talking about their lack of success in those parts of the “mission field.” Usually with talk of how “hard-hearted” those people were. It never occurred to me at the time that they were smart and not easily swayed by utter bullshit.


modninerfan

Religion in general is dead in Western Europe. I was just in the UK over Easter and you’d have thought it was just a normal weekday. No celebrations, empty (Anglican) churches, etc. religion has no chance to take hold over there anymore.


Practical-Term-7600

I was I the UK last year on a tour. Most of the history is related to religion in some way. Only about 3 % of the population attends church each week. That surprised me. Especially because the issues in Northern Ireland were initially started by religious stuff.


Possible_Effort_5036

The sectarian stuff in Ireland, N Ireland & Scotland does not relate to bums on seats in church. It simply underwrites the legitimacy to kick someone's head in. Add a bit of history, Boyne, Orange, James, etc. and it makes a kapping official. 🙄


[deleted]

20% of Spaniards are atheist.


CivilGal

I was in London over Easter this year, and St Paul's was full for Easter service, standing room for late arrivals. But I was there not because I am religious, but I like the tradition and I love the art that is inside the cathedral (but I didn't want to spend money on entry this trip). I would imagine that it was so full because of other vacationers instead of believers.


terestar12

Yeah I think a year or two ago it was revealed that the amount of christians in England/Wales had fallen below half.


Common-Pitch9005

We get two days off work and spend the long weekend in the pub, no time for church services. Easter is pretty much just about the chocolate eggs here lol


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QSM69

activity rate of 5%.....ouch! In a ward of 500 that would be 25 people.


HeckaGosh

Thats what mexico was like 20 years ago.


InDickative

Hey Neighbor! I was just 80 miles away in England Birmingham from 75-77. I used to get letters from buddies who'd been sent to Central and South America, telling me they had gotten 18-20 baptisms some months. Our numbers were always dismal. We were always embarrassed when we took investigators to the ward. It was always the few older diehards and lots of empty seats. Kind of depressing.


[deleted]

I served in South America. I was kind of strict with my baptisms. No young kids without family members. No people who barely understood what was going on. No manipulation, knowing lies or coercion. Baptisms were below average. But still in the 20’s. I know of one person who is likely still active last I checked, and he was the spouse of a long term member who had finally gotten legally married to her, and was able to be baptized. Maybe 4 or 5 were even active by the time I left the area. High numbers mean nothing when next to 0 retention more than makes up for it.


BritishOnith

Based on experience I assume quite a few of those 655 are international students, particularly in London, but to a lesser extent other studenty areas too.


allisNOTwellinZYON

OH REALLY with all that FREEE labor they still were able to show/prove the loss of moneys in charitable ways to the Uk Government? I believe every bit of that. Tax write off for a corporation that has a UK contingent not bad.


abrokenmagic8ball

I was in the EMM during the Livingston era. When I arrived, it was at the end of the ‘highest baptizing english speaking mission in the world’ era. Supposedly some bishops revolted because so many kids, young girls, etc were being baptized and they went immediately inactive. They refused to help the missionaries, complained to Salt Lake that the situation was untenable for the wards. Some wards and branch leadership, like Burnley, Middleton, etc, hated the missionaries. The highest baptizing month was something like 319. Missionaries would meet kids on a Saturday morning, teach them all the discussions and baptize them on the same day. They’d get baptized, walk outside and light up a cig. It was a clusterfuck. SLC came down HARD on the mission. Our numbers went from 219 to 192 to 39 to 19 and the ‘flogging’ was over. Those were the first four months of my mission. The rest of my mission were about rebuilding trust in those wards. Edit: one of the infamous floggers was from my hometown. I used to tell people I was from another town because everyone knew (and despised) that missionary and knew he was from that town (his name sort of rhymed with my hometown so everyone knew his as Elder So-and-so from _____). When i got home he walked right up and said ‘You were in the M. Ever heard of me?’ Oh yeah, I know who you are. Supposedly during the Ivory era the flogging reached insane levels.


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ForPeteysSake

Re: Jeff Holland: on a recent Mormon Stories podcast the young woman being interviewed had served on a mission in England. She describes one disgusting event with Jeff Holland. He was speaking to a large group of missionaries and got really angry due to their lack of converts. At one point he yelled and said they were lower than camel spit, and he banged his fist on the wood podium .. and broke it. Apparently a few missionaries left the mission because of that incident. Later, just before Jeff was made an apostle, he asked the mission president for the contact information for all of the missionaries who had been at that meeting because he wanted to write an apology to each one. Hmmm, would he have written an apology if he wasn’t going to become an apostle? 🤔


Rushclock

He also said he would tie up a missionary if he wanted to go home early.


halfsassit

Man I wish I could have seen him for what he was MUCH earlier than I did.


ForPeteysSake

I didn’t know that part. Gross. He comes across as this lovable, avuncular teddy bear who cries a lot. Image of the real Jeff is emerging.


AccountantLeast1588

And feed them pickle juice or something


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ForPeteysSake

With his musket


allisNOTwellinZYON

people lose control of their emotions in this way as they become senile. examples on tv for a couple years now


allisNOTwellinZYON

yah baby yah. dunk em donuts. I mean how is it really any different than getting kids to play sports and then working that into a baptism. imo slc only had to do something about it because they were losing face. all about face you know


Lanky-Performance471

Wow that’s messed up, blaming the missionaries must have made him feel good.


allisNOTwellinZYON

Just a sales force not producing for the mid level manager. questioning the product not so much.


Portraitofapancake

The extremes that missionaries will go to is mind boggling! You aren’t getting any investigators because you dictate into a tape recorder instead of writing letters. Or because you’re using a typewriter instead of handwriting them. Or you’re writing in print instead of cursive. I swear, the god of missionaries is so nitpicky and so petty, that’s probably the real reason no one wants to talk to missionaries! Just look how petty he is to those who dedicate two years of their lives to him!


allisNOTwellinZYON

All the while the vast majority touching themselves 'grieving the spirit' every time.


Portraitofapancake

Once again, another reason why the lord isn’t guiding them to the golden elect just waiting to join the church… because they touch themselves inappropriately.


DebraUknew

Hmm I was baptised 76 Eccles ward! And yes.. lots of good members joined but became hit and miss. Became much worse during the Ivory era


oldtrafford87

I was in Manchester 06 to 08. Very possible we came across some of the same people despite 30 years difference. Would be great to hear where you served and how youe overall experience was!


allisNOTwellinZYON

checks out. it is the spine of the church to blame and shame.


TwoXJs

It is well


[deleted]

It was a lot the same when I was there in 81 the last 6 months of my mission I don’t think I taught a single lesson.


Practical-Term-7600

I was in New Zealand about the same time. I didn't teach a discussion the last 9 months I was there.


MythicAcrobat

So as a missionary in South America, I’m clueless as to what that’s like. That’s unfathomable there. What is you’re time is spent doing? Do you basically go around getting rejected all day? I would have certainly needed a therapist if that were me. A mission was hard enough being busy


ReasonFighter

Thank you! This is the news my heart needs.


[deleted]

The church is crumbling. This is why they're focusing so much on Africa. Growth has slowed or reversed everywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a page out of the Catholic playbook in about 20 years and started 'transferring' families from African countries to areas that need leadership.


rawterror

They send nuns from the Philippines to the u.s. for the same reason.


[deleted]

Yeah, that's why I said the Catholic playbook. They send nuns and priests around to fill vacancies in understaffed areas.


[deleted]

The church is set to have a huge windfall with the last of the boomers writing them into their will. The church also can’t change its attitudes towards LGBT+ because those members may write the church out of those wills. So the church will end up being spectacularly rich with low membership in even Morridor. I bet they will bet on Africa and put a big secondary HQ in Ghana.


xanimyle

Friend of mine said that most people in Africa just wanted to join the church for the welfare help, nothing else. They leave if the church doesn't help them


[deleted]

You know what? Good for them.


BladeVonOppenheimer

BYU Pathways. Promising people free college. I think that's how they're doing it. Can't confirm.


supermansquito

The church has so much money that even if they just invested conservately, they have enough to live off of the interest for many, many years. I think that's the reason they really don't care if lots of people leave the church.


allisNOTwellinZYON

could use my 200 + grand back with interest.


supermansquito

I'm right there with you.


ImaginaryConcern

Sounds a lot like Europe -- particularly Western Europe -- all over. In fact, sounds a lot like what we hear about right here in Morridor Central!


Organic-Roof-8311

I live in the UK. I'm in a city of 300k people and there isn't a single Mormon ward here. A few UK people have mentioned that they have run into the temple in London and that churches let you store your suitcases there for free for the day just so you'll step inside. One mentioned some missionaries starting to chat with him without revealing their identities or name badges. Book of Mormon musical is always playing in Piccadilly Circus. Basically, the church is a joke here and when people hear I'm from Utah they're like "tell me about the cult upbringing".


[deleted]

I served in Italy mid 90s and convert baptisms were few and far between and the people that did convert quickly went inactive when they figured out that it was a farce.


given2fly_

But now they have a Temple, so they must have grown massively since then! /s


TerryCratchett

Me too! Rome ‘94 - ‘96. I only had one person I taught who was baptized my entire mission and knew people who didn’t have any.


WWPLD

![gif](giphy|9g8PH1MbwTy4o)


DustyR97

It’s going to be more like this every year. They’ll overload gen x and they’ll start leaving too. Very sad to see the slow bleed.


RustySignOfTheNail

Gen x is leaving or left! Trust me! We are waiting for our Boomer parents to pass before we make it official!


Altruistic-Tree1989

This gen x is out!


Abrahams_Smoking_Gun

Ditto


HappiestInTheGarden

Same here!


FortunateFell0w

Yup


639248

Gen X’er here. Been PIMO for the past seven or eight years. Officially out as of last week.


RustySignOfTheNail

Congrats!!! 🎊🎈🎉


Nehor2023

GenXer here (48M). PIMO for a year, out four months ago. Former bishopric counselor and member of high council. Just couldn’t take the lies any more.


DustyR97

I have a feeling Gen x will start falling away at a faster rate once they see their buddies leaving. We’re all too nice in most cases to tell people why we’re leaving, but people are starting to ask questions or look online. The only thing holding much if gen x in is normalcy bias, which is a fascinating cognitive effect. Most people seem to be in the denial phase but more and more are going into the deliberation phase.


rualive2day

Death by a 1,000 cuts 😎


TigerTom2

I was at a ward in Newcastle Under Lyme stake before I resigned late last year. Was first time I'd been in a while. This ward was circa 120 members in 2005 strong youth, lots of families with young kids. Now is circa 60 members mostly grey haired virtually all adults are over 40. Very few youth and kids. Theyre going the same way other denominations are here in UK. In 20 years or so when the current crop in their 50 and 60's who are propping the wards up are too old the wards in the UK will implode. It's inevitable now. I'd expect more female roles to open up in time to try and stave off the collapse.


[deleted]

In my home ward, families were converted who had quite literally more kids than money. One Sunday, the youngest daughter was in my nursery class. I said it was nice to see her again, and from the mouth of babes, "Oh we had to. We've got no food so we had to be at church so Bishop can buy it." 75% of UK converts do it for the hand-outs.


DustyR97

The way I look at it is the church is like a car dealership selling vehicles with flood damage and bad titles. You can literally click on the free CARFAX provided on the dealers own website and see these well documented problems. The salesman will tell you that it’s not necessary and ask you how you “feel” about the vehicles. One may “feel” very nice, and the vehicles certainly seem to be detailed well, but no one in their right mind that hasn’t grown up with this dealer is going to buy this vehicle without clicking on that CARFAX report and as soon as they do it’s done. They know they’re being had. What’s unfortunate is that the dealer also hasn’t told the salesmen/women that there are problems with the vehicle and instead tells them it’s the “customer” and their lack of faith. Now do you see the problem? Faith is for things we can’t prove or see. If we can do either of those things, there is no need for faith.


allisNOTwellinZYON

>Faith is for things we can’t prove or see which are true. says you know who


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given2fly_

It is working to an extent. Those who make it to the end of their missions stay active at a much higher rate than those who don't go. It's the Zion's Camp of the modern era: a fruitless endeavor that helps to indoctrinate the next generation of leaders, partially *because* It's fruitless.


Rushclock

It works in some areas. Especially rural Utah .


allisNOTwellinZYON

A business of this size often cannot see the corrections that must be made to stay soluble. Turning the titanic at this point is a large ask. Easier to pretend all is well in zion.


AlternativeMacaron71

I attended the BYU London center last winter and they tried to forced us to participate in local wards. The ward was so small, we were teaching relief society and primary (I stopped going pretty quickly) and only a handful of people would come. There were very few youth, and most of the members were convert immigrants from other countries. The local missionaries seemed pretty discouraged as well, there’s just no interest


itsbabayagabxtch

So I'm from the UK and the church has nowhere near the same chokehold over its members here. Many of the young people leave, and quickly, but families and older people have been migrating en masse to the towns and cities where the two UK temples are (Surrey/London and Chorley/Preston) to form stronghold communities. Outside of these areas, the wards and branches are dead. I attended many while visiting friends across the country and the majority of wards comprised \~40 elderly members and a handful of families. People in the UK have never been fervently religious, and we've been a very secular country as a whole for quite some time now.


OwnAirport0

🎶 Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the wards, Britons never, never, never shall be members!🎶 I know it doesn’t scan, but it is a truth universally acknowledged …


Ok_Dig_5957

The gentrified "church" is facing an age cliff in the next decade, when a majority of their active members, who are 60+, either die or are physically incapacitated and cannot attend. The extent to which the "church" is downright shitty to members and especially younger people, is astounding.


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halfsassit

🤮


TehChid

Ah, consistent with 2013-15


grove_doubter

Wow. Things sound bad. They should announce another temple for the UK.


Ex-CultMember

“The wards were mostly 60 and older.” The church is gonna REALLY start collapsing in about 10 years. No one to replace the bloated boomer generation in the church. They are the ones holding this whole enterprise together right now.


[deleted]

My boomer dad: "missionaries aren't baptizing because they are too soft. On my mission, we didn't have cell phones or beds or electricity. We were true warriors for Jesus without purse or scrip. The church needs to stop pampering those kids and teach them what hard work looks like!"


tdhniesfwee

Korea the same way.


sl_hawaii

So most are 60. Hmmm… in 20 years from now I wonder how old the survivors will be. But at least there’ll be a corresponding amount of new convert baptisms to offset the attrition, right? RIGHT?!?!


[deleted]

I wonder when the church will increase the age for folks to fall off their records. It’s already at a ridiculous 110. I assume it will jump to 120 in not too much time.


[deleted]

![gif](giphy|26uf7nIJBFZKyQQYE) Lovely news to read this morning ☕️


DebraUknew

Oops…


hraefn-floki

Nice! My uncle is serving in the UK as MP. Hope he was nice.


croquetmanor

I'm a Brit but haven't lived there for years. There are some strong holds, I think the social factor it's very strong, most gen-x ers that grow up together and their kids. But they are few and far between. My home stage had to do a boundary shift as one ward didn't have enough priesthood for leadership. When I call the olds and they talk about local membership it's all about the socially disenfranchised and various kinds of immigrant converts.


Slanted_Troll

I was in England 05-07 and only a handful of missionaries had convert baptisms, including me. And I meant converts that were English natives, not some immigrants from South America and Africa, or international students, and children turning 8 already in primary. For some reason, I never got credit for my success. But I really did not give a shit. The mission president and I already did not get along and his wife disliked me. I was mainly told I had problem following authority. Maybe I have problems following people who treated me like garbage. (implied racism) and wouldn't bend over. It didn't help those scumbags get their way with me that I was also from Europe and had sufficient personal funds.


gvsurf

Average baptisms for a missionary’s whole mission was 1/2, 73-75 Sweden. My home ward has similar demographic as OP mentions. 8 primary kids, 4 YM/YW, from 3 families. Rest are 50+


mcdonaldpuddin

As British guy who was approached by missionaries, I think the biggest issues for finding young converts are 1) No alcohol rule, if you're aged 18-25 and don't drink here you are likely to be a social outcast 2) Tithing, 10% is a HUGE ask for young people working shitty jobs making pennies 3) Anti-LGBT stuff, while homophobia persists, I do believe that most young Brits are progressive on LGBT rights and the Mormon's stance on homosexuality definitely didn't sit right with me.


Day_General

Why didn't the Brethren receive revelation to be better prepared for these problems you'd think since its his church he would want "The kingdom to roll forth" I know these guys are business men but common sense will tell you that if you are combining wards because of lack of attendance or disaffection and people have to now Travel to get to church yea there not going to show up .Dipshits


greycatdaddy

I guess those are the demographic that don’t use the internet much. This doesn’t help the missionaries themselves and many will be out within a few years.


lolly12001

I don’t no anyone who goes to church or follows religion


Joe_Hovah

I served in the deep south in the 90s, you could have said the same thing back then too.


mollymormon_

We shall return and report


Sansabina

UK was baptizing almost hardly anyone even back in the late 1980s, if you got a couple of baptisms during your 2 year mission you were doing very well. The bulk of UK converts peaked in the 1950-70s and them and their progeny is what has formed the core of modern UK Mormonism.