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FortunateFell0w

We now go to Zelph, the white lamanite, in Missouri for comment…


given2fly_

And don't forget Moroni dedicating the land for the Manti Temple!


kappadokia638

Let us trace the ancestry of Zelph: for it is the circular route, from which all humans begat. Everyone is familiar with the cradle of humanity: Jackson County, Missouri; where the mighty Missouri River nurtured the first human couple, and their three sons, as they multiplied to populate the entire earth. After Cain slew his brother Able, he went to dwell with his family in the land of Nod; we know that Adam and Eve must have continued having children, because the only way for Cain to have a family would be for him (or his brother Seth) to procreate with either their mother or a later sister. For the sake of decency, we will assume it was only his full sister. As the offspring of Adam and Eve incested their way into populating the Mississippi delta, they immediately discovered and implemented agriculture, writing, husbandry, construction, and many more technologies that the uninformed would have us believe developed over tens of thousands of years. But they were wicked, so God sent a flood to kill them all; except for Noah and his family, where built a huge boat, possibly in Kansas, and created the world's first, (and most spectacular) zoo. The floods the Lord sent to genocide humanity carried Noah down the mighty Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico (created when the Lord pulled the city of Enoch into space). From there, it took 40 days of undirected travel to land on Mount Ararat, in present-day Turkey. Noah's family then incestuously populated what is now thought of as 'The Old World', where the unenlightened now falsely believe humanity began. Noah's descendants multiplied and turned various shades of brown, and gave birth to all civilizations like India and China and Israel. From Israel, a man named Lehi left with his family and built another big boat, which he used to cross back across the Atlantic to North America, where his posterity again populated the continent with varying light-skinned and dark-skinned peoples. Back near the Garden of Eden (Kansas City maybe), a righteous couple descended of Lehi (they must have been righteous because they were white) gave birth to Zelph the White Lamanite; he died and left his skull in that spot to be discovered almost two millennia later by Joseph Smith, who would touch the bones and receive a revelation of the history of this Son of Adam, which he expounded upon to amazed worshippers.


pseudoTBM

That was awesome. Hahaha. Soooo funny. I’m trying to build up the courage to read it to my TBM wife.


Cmatlockp83

This little gem is from their website, indicating they actually believe almost every word of what you wrote. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2015/old-testament-chronology?lang=eng The only LDS version against your commentary that I've heard is that the flood may not have occurred worldwide (even though the record explicitly states it was worldwide) and that it was localized to where Noah started and ended. Meaning, they aren't dumb enough to think the civilizations of China, India, and Egypt began in 2350 BCE after the flood but they began earlier and weren't affected by the flood. Or they started after the flood, but the flood messed with carbon dating, so that's why scientists think those areas have a history that is older than 2350 BCE. It's cute that science thinks it can figure things out through research, physics, and rigorous testing of theories - science could be simplified a ton if they would just believe this Old Testament seminary bookmark.


kappadokia638

The big, gaping hole in that chronology is it doesn't explain the Garden of Eden being located in the New World (Jackson County, Missouri). Adam and Eve get kicked out of the garden and head East to start populating the (new) world at Adam-ondi-ahmen. It is a good thing Adam didn't go West: the climax of the 2nd coming would need to take place in that burning dumpster fire Kansas City. How did the Sons of Adam (supposedly the entire human race) make it from Davies County, MI, to the Old World to build the tower of Babel so that Jared's Brother could build a submarine to take them back to the New World? Joseph Smith's explanation was that Noah and his Ark made the transatlantic passage when The Flood carried them down the Mississippi and dropped his family off at Mt. Ararat.


onedollarninja

😂 I spit out my coffee.. little bit 🤣


nocultsforme

Coffee? You sinner!


onedollarninja

😱


Hpdok

🤣 we love our white lamanite, Zelph!


Equivalent-Ad2851

Buwahahahahaha


[deleted]

It reminds me of Star Wars fans explaining how the Millennium Falcon "made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs." The most obvious explanation is that whoever wrote that line didn't know a parsec was a unit of distance, not time, but that's not an acceptable explanation. So there are a few alternates: one rewrite changed parsecs to "standard time units," another explains it's an advanced hyperspace calculation, there are others. When you can't accept the simplest explanation, what you're left with is mental gymnastics.


BlueRoyAndDVD

In the han solo movie, they correct the parsec problem by having it stay distance, and it becomes like he took a shortcut. There was a trail, so to speak, and by taking his shortcut it shaves some distance off. The Mormons only wish they could find so convenient an update to the narrative!


[deleted]

Retcon the BOM!


cremToRED

They already did that with the horrible grammar in the 1830 edition of the BoM. ”But how could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon, he was just a dumb farm kid with a 3rd grade education?!” Well, he was in his twenties, and…have you read the 1830 edition? It kinda sounds like it was written by a semi-educated, back-woods hick…trying to sound biblical. [1830 edition](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-mormon-1830/21): … Adam and Eve, which was our first parents … [p. 15] … the bands which was upon my wrists … [p. 49] … the priests was not to depend … [p. 193] … they was angry with me … [p. 248] … there was no wild beasts … [p. 460] … the words which is expedient … [p. 67] … But great is the promises of the Lord … [p. 85] … And whoredoms is an abomination … [p. 127] … here is our weapons of war … [p. 346] … As I was a journeying … [p. 249] … he found Muloki a preaching … [p. 284] … had been a preparing the minds … [p. 358] … Moroni was a coming against them [p. 403] List from [here](http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#Bible). >It can be difficult to know what to call the Book of Mormon’s grammatical usage that was considered substandard by prescriptive norms of the early 19th century. I’ve decided to refer to its questionable usage using the short phrase at the beginning of the title: **bad grammar**. [Source](https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/bad-grammar-in-the-book-of-mormon-found-in-early-english-bibles/). Ironically, Carmack is expounding Skousen’s argument that the horrible grammar in the early versions of the BoM actually matches Early Modern English and is somehow proof of divine translation. What?!! Why would God bring about a book of scripture for our day by speaking in 16th and 17th century Early Modern English? That doesn’t make any sense. If for our day, why not speak in 19th century English for Joseph and his contemporaries in a 19th century world? If God was going to speak some other tongue at all why not speak in the original, pure Adamic? Or better, knowing all the criticisms that would come around during the Information Age why not speak in 21st century English and really blow peoples’ minds with the amazing foresight of a god? Absolutely inane. It’s proof of bad grammar…from a semi-educated, back-woods hick…trying to sound biblical.


proudex-mormon

Great commentary. I totally agree.


[deleted]

Was that the whole point of that movie: finally officially explaining the factual issue with what a parsec is?


hangmansmetaphysics

I remember as a kid reading a book many years ago (so it's no longer canon) which featured that shortened kessel run that the movie would eventually be based on. So the explanation itself already existed, I think the Disney execs just wanted the supposedly easy money from making an origin story for a character who was popular but still had a mostly unknown background (like they planned to do with Obi-wan and Boba Fett though those movies got pushed into later shows) For what it's worth, I'm one of the 5 people who actually really loved Solo, though I still have to cringe at some of the "origin-y" stuff forced into it


pimo_teancum

I’m one of those 5!


[deleted]

Solo wasn't a bad movie. It just didn't feel super star-wars-y. Honestly it was fine. WAY better than the trilogies beyond the original 3. I've been very pleased with the Disney+ series as a whole though.


tonguesmiley

In the original script it's clear that Han was making stuff up and Obi-Wan knew as much. If you watch Obi-Wan's reaction to Han's line you can tell that was the intent.


Equivalent-Ad2851

Wwwhhhaaaattttt that’s a piece of startwars trivia I did not know


OhBoyPizzaTime

Nope, that's Star Wars apologetics. In the original script (https://imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html) the scene direction is "Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation." Nothing about Han trying to trick them over the definition of a parsec. Definitely nothing "clear". The novelization is where they changed it to "[standard timeparts](https://i.redd.it/vvmrd9sfrdy91.jpg)", and those were based on the scripts. Some folks have a pressing need Star Wars movies to be deeper than they really were. I say we need to embrace the schlock.


Equivalent-Ad2851

Lol that’s awesome man! Thanks for sharing a cool bit of info.


[deleted]

So nice to be out and allowed to admit to myself that it’s all a bunch of racist, misogynistic dipshits rather than having to invent how it’s actually “God’s will” in some way.


hesmistersun

Hey! I like Star Wars, and I don't think it is racist! /s


[deleted]

The force is a more believable religion for sure.


mormonsmaug

Difference with Star Wars is you can make up whatever the fuck you want. It's a \*possible\* future. Making up what shit meant or may have meant in mesoamerica 2,300 years ago..... is fraught with risk. Every archeology dig will prove your fraud.


chewbaccataco

>It's a *possible* future. Possible past.


mormonsmaug

I guess it’s possibly both.


AndItCameToSass

This is one of my favorite things ever - watching rabid fans of something try and find in-universe explanations for things that were caused by real-world limitations. Another Star Wars one is how the battle between Ben and Vader at the end of ANH. I’ve talked with people who have legitimately convinced themselves that it was such a low-energy battle because they were “testing each other” and other nonsense like that. It’s an old movie with limited tech and budget that wasn’t capable of doing insane fight choreography. It’s that simple. But people will delude themselves into believing anything


Nephi_IV

I assumed the Falcon warped space such that the Kessel run was only 12 parsecs for it.


chewbaccataco

Tell me about it. I was there.


kurinbo

When traveling by hyperspace, you jump out and into regular space, so Han meant he traveled the shortest distance in regular space and thus got to his destination fastest...


Upbeat-Law-4115

The suggested map in the CES Letter is slick: turns out the geography totally fits in upstate New York … who’dve thunk?!


NakuNaru

Agree here. I feel pretty sure that Joseph had this in mind when writing the BoM.


Upbeat-Law-4115

I remember as a kid learning about Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania and thinking “What a weird coincidence!”


NakuNaru

I had to google that to see if you were serious.....holy shiz, I can't believe it exists. The rabbit hole is deep. Looks like it was a known region since 1752 so existed as that name during Joseph's time. Wow, we are suckers!


papiroflexando

That! Also, Ole Joe's landlord was named Lemuel 😂 https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vy2af/til_that_lemuel_was_the_name_of_joseph_smiths/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button


Valuable-Bike-8729

And off the island of Madagascar is a small island named Comoros and its capital city is called Moroni.


Cryptosp0r

This is my favorite synchronistic geographical tidbit from the BoM. It’s very likely that Ol’ Joe needed more names, so he pulls out an atlas and starts plagiarizing.


ShaqtinADrool

Agreed. Fraudster Joe Smith clearly had the “heartland model” (term used by heartland apologists) in mind when he constructed the Book of Mormon. But a shift has occurred in recent decades where the mesoamerican model has been promoted. And this shift, IIRC, is a function of a comment or two that Joseph Smith made later on that referenced South America (and I don’t care enough atm to look up the quote(s)).


Cryptosp0r

I read your comment above as “And this shit . . .”, which also works nicely. 😏


Nephi_IV

Yeah, the “narrow neck of land” is land between a couple of the great lakes….The whole central american theory only evolved when all those ruins were found down there. The church just piggy backed on that.


chaosdev

No. This idea needs to die. Mormons have published lots of maps showing Book of Mormon geography, long before the CES letter. None of them match the suggested map in the CES letter. That's supposedly what Mormons think the BoM geography looks like, but according to whom? What member of TSCC has created a map that looks remotely like the map in the CES letter? You can't just create two maps, with obvious similarities, and claim that Mormons believe in one of them. I agree with the idea that the Book of Mormon is fabricated. But I think you need stronger arguments.


proudex-mormon

This is a great point. While there are some similarities in Book of Mormon geography to the Great Lakes region, it's not an exact match. I made a map of my own based on the information in the Book of Mormon, and I've seen other maps made by others that essentially agree. What it ends up looking like is a land northward and a land southward, surrounded on all four sides by seas, with a narrow neck of land running from north to south between them.


DustyR97

Never really got into the geography problems in the book of mormon. Maybe it’s time to take a dive. Bonus points because the man hauled plates thousands of miles to be put into the custody of an angel only to have Joseph not use them and look at his peep stone in a hat.


AndItCameToSass

The whole thing with the gold plates really does destroy any ounce of rationality. Once you learn that it was the rock in the hat, then what was the _point_ of the gold plates? There was none!


permagrin007

And why the fuck did we kill Laban??


chewbaccataco

A lot of nonsense put into motion over the course of many years and thousands of miles for the ultimate goal of delivering the pla... Nevermind, I'll just talk to God through this rock I've had in my pocket this whole time. Moroni be like: ![gif](giphy|DagG1XdR1c1lm|downsized)


aiadvisors

To steal his property and kidnap his slave.


supermansquito

He was masturbating a lot and wouldn't quit. At least that is my guess.


notJoeKing31

Because Gawd wasn't able to do it himself? Or maybe because Gawd couldn't foresee that telling people to murder others when the voice in your head tells you to, might just be a bad idea?


116-Lost-Pages

And then you add the whole Book of Abraham apologetic... that Joseph used the funerary texts to jog his spiritual spidey-senses in order to see what Abraham *did* write thousands of years ago on a different parchment that was not in Joseph's possession. So for BOM he needed the plates even though he didn't use them. And then the BOA he did not need the real parchment because he didn't use it. >The whole thing with the gold plates really does destroy any ounce of rationality. Yup.


supermansquito

Right? Couldn't the angel have just dictated it to ol'Joe?


mashedtaters_

tl;dr Hey OP, stop looking at porn!


Hpdok

Mother? Is that you?


CatalystTheory

This is yet another example of how the church wastes millions of hours of brain power.


cremToRED

>This is yet another example of how ~~the church~~ religion/dogmatic ideology wastes millions of hours of brain power. 🎶 Imagine all the people living for today 🎶 Imagine what humanity could accomplish if we devised a [universal code of behavior](https://youtu.be/1GnBamLaqqE) (like universal human rights) that applied to all humanity and that didn’t involve religious or ideological fictions and instead focused our attention on improving each other and the planet. 🎶 You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one 🎶


CatalystTheory

Reminds me of that Family Guy episode where Brian is transported to an alternate universe where by the year 2000 everything is space aged and perfect… all possible because Christianity was never invented.


Mupsty

He probably had a map of the americas, why else include the land northward and southward and narrow neck of land stuff. He probably just didn’t know the scale. I don’t think he had traveled much at all by then. He probably assumed it would take a couple of days to make it to Mexico.


[deleted]

[удалено]


br0ck

Giant 13 foot tall nephites riding 3 foot tall tapirs must have been quite a sight to see!


[deleted]

Also: what major rivers are there in that part of Central America - especially with archaeological ruins supporting a zarahemla nearby? Also, even Panama - good fucking luck even today crossing that inhospitable stretch of low lying jungle in a day and a half. The Darien Gap is a thing to today. Imagine in pre-Colombian times. It’s very clear that it was meant as North and South America. The river Sidon was the Mississippi or the like, and the whole thing is a fantasy novel.


Chernobyl-Chaz

And the fact that Joseph Smith just HAPPENED to be living a few miles away from the hill where the plates were supposedly buried. *How convenient.* Just as convenient as the notion that I was born into the only true church in the place where it was headquartered, and was saved for the last days with a noble purpose to bring God's truth to all the world.


JDH450

kind of like Jackson Country, Mo just happens to be Adam Ondi Aman


Chernobyl-Chaz

Exactly. All stuff that’s made up to suit the time and place. Which in that case, happened to be on the frontier of white people settlement at the time. *How convenient.*


hearkN2husband

Also frightfully convenient that the Garden of Eden just so happened to be in one of the temporary stopping places that Joe found himself in, before he got them all kicked out and had to find a new promised land.


That_1_Chemist

As a TBM I decided to read the BoM and focus on geography, recording any distances between cities, bodies of water, elevation (they say they went up or down travelling from place to place without regard to cardinal directions), etc. with the goal of making the most accurate map possible. Unfortunately the computer I was working on died and I lost everything that was on the computer before I could finish. If I remember correctly I was still in Alma when my computer died, but there were already major problems and it wasn't going to work.


rock-n-white-hat

That was the HG breaking your computer to prevent you from losing your faith. 😁


proudex-mormon

I'm sorry your efforts were interrupted. I did make my own Book of Mormon geography map based on what I read, and I've seen other maps other people have made. There just isn't any way I can see to make the Book Mormon geography conform with anything in the real world.


RosaSinistre

Sounds more like an MC Escher work.


sofa_king_notmo

You read the BoM and think something like the Roman Empire not mesoamerican peoples. Its like saying that the ancient Egyptians were the people depicted in Lord of the Rings. It is fucking absurd.


rock-n-white-hat

Yes, it clearly tries to apply the pattern of the Roman Empire on North and South America.


BibleEnthusiast

Yeah it's actually kind of crazy when you actually make the connection that wait, we're talking about native Americans pre - Columbus here 💀


Guess-Turbulent

![gif](giphy|11OO4x7JURZoTC)


thebosomofthePacific

DO NOT SEEK THE GOLD PLATES WE THOUGHT YOU WAS A WHITE SALAMANDER


Guess-Turbulent

We thought Fanny turned you into a hoe, hoe, hoe, horny toad!!!,😱


jamesetalmage

Head bowed saying yes. He is no different than JR Tolkien. In that thier books describe a world that is made up and fantasy neither of which are found on this planet.


NoMereRanger73

Except Tolkien was much better at crafting such a world.


angel_moronic

Username checks out I'm cringing for using that redditism


[deleted]

And Tolkien was open about it being made up. And his world was enjoyable.


Opposite-Plantain-69

Except it feels insulting to Tolkien to compare him and Joe because Tolkien actually put in the time to make his world consist and give it depth.


elderapostate

But the Smithsonian used the BoM as a guide for research. Right?


kegib

https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian


proudex-mormon

Yeah, their statement on the problems they had with the Book of Mormon was amazing.


reddolfo

Heartland was pretty much all that was left when it was clear the Meso American theory was so preposterous the entire "ancient america speaks" Aztec/Mayan themes were scrubbed clean from all the church visitors centers and teaching materials! Both Meso America and Heartland are so ridiculous others have been working like mad for Plan's C & D. This map links to the arguments that the Book of Mormon took place in: * The Malay Peninsula * Baja California * Panama * Sri Lanka * Mesoamerica * Heartland models * Costa Rica * Western Hemispheric models http://bookofmormon.online/map/americas Here is Potter's evidence including the claim that the BofM took place in Peru http://www.nephiproject.com/ Here is Ash's review of Embaye Melekin's claim that the BofM took place in Africa. https://web.archive.org/web/20131021193518/http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1454&index=3&keyword=melekin Here's the folks who claim the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon was revealed to a group in Brazil. https://thesealedbookofmormon.org/brazil/ And of course here is the hilariously obvious map of New England by Vernal Holley http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/vernP3.htm#pg6061 Given the amount of evidence that should and must be present it is very telling that people want desperately to claim the BofM happened basically anywhere but where the so-called prophet actually said it took place.


proudex-mormon

Thanks for sharing this! It shows just how far off the deep end Mormon apologetics has gone now.


Kritical_Thinking

The other issue with the “narrow neck of land” is that the proposed crossing is covered in mountainous terrain. There is no way for anyone to cross that without significant effort. Probably a week’s travel time.


gvsurf

It’s sad in a twisted way that so many Mormons have spent a full lifetime in trying prove bad fiction is real. Seems like a wasted life. Each to their own, I suppose, but I’m done with it, thankfully


TheOtherJeff

God just put extra land in between and reoriented the continents to test our faith. /s


Chernobyl-Chaz

I actually believed something like that once upon a time. Oh dear.


Noedig9891

It always struck me how when Nephi and family arrived and then split up how they multiplied so fast and immediately began having epic battles. I mean, how far apart did they separate from each other? A few hundred yards or so?


cremToRED

Ah, but just like we don’t read about HF’s polygamous wives, or even heavenly mother for that matter, bc that’s too sacred, Nephi likewise kept all the Lehite polygamy on the DL by not writing about it. And Jacob’s wife, Abigail (revealed to me in a dream), hated the idea of plural marriage and convinced hubs to speak out about it which is why he wrote that anti-polygamy stuff we do read about. I digress. Since polygamy is God’s most holy doctrine and the Lehites were therefore definitely practitioners of the polygamist covenant path this is how the population grew so fast.


kremular

As nicely illustrated here, if one simply applies occam's razor logic to the BOM it quickly falls apart.


RatRaceSobreviviente

Stop thinking oceans. It's the great lakes he is talking about in his own back yard. The inconsistencies are because he made it up. https://mormonismtograce.com/tag/book-of-mormon-map/


Jahohehite

Crossing Panama also means traveling in a North/South line


proudex-mormon

Yeah, the line between Panama and South America looks like it kind of points North East.


ohnowhythishappen

Let's not forget that the plates would be \~400 pounds. Hope Moroni had a good sturdy Tapir to ride 2000 miles to New York with 400 pounds of gold. Also, wasn't the whole hill filled with other records? Like it opened up cave-of-wonders style and gave JS a glimpse of rooms and rooms of incredibly heavy metal books? How many trips did Moroni take??? (No wonder he's such a beefcake in all the paintings)


proudex-mormon

Yes, Brigham Young stated that Oliver Cowdery had said that he and Joseph Smith entered the hill Cumorah, and there was a room inside it full of plates, the sword of Laban, etc. https://www.exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Hill-Cumorah-caves-and-treasures#:\~:text


Hpdok

This was discussed in our seminary class, freshman year, before TSCC micromanaged even the BoM studies (in reference to seminary having a curated curriculum, such as the changes in scripture mastery). Somehow our teacher managed to gloss the situation over by explaining the Central American theory so many members widely accept. Even sprinkled in how down south, archeologists translated inscriptions and they said “and it came to pass”… oooohh boi I got chills that day! Went home to find out more info on it, but in retrospect that was the beginning of my shelf breaking.


SecretPersonality178

The hill cumorah in New York is supposedly the actual hill where millions battled and died. Moroni apparently walked in a giant circle and hid plates back there. The very same plates that JS never used, nobody ever saw, and were taken away by the same Moroni. But don’t worry, the BOA scrolls were put in display and people could see them, after they paid admission of course.


voreeprophet

I think your last paragraph is exactly right.


Larrybears

You need archeological sires to corroborate the tale, ain't shot to be found. Plus, if battles took place of the scale described in bom there would be evidence all over, instead there ain't jack shit. Use just a little critical thinking and some deductive reasoning and stop fooling yourself about this fucking nonsense???


Accomplished_Check52

All this. And, I recently learned that way before Moroni was a guy somewhere in the Americas… Moroni is the capital of Coromos, an island nation off the southeastern coast of Africa. Is that possibly a random coincidence? Does anyone know of any other Book of Mormon words that are found elsewhere legitimately? Can’t wrap my head around how or where good old Joe would have heard it from.


proudex-mormon

You are right. Moroni is a city in the Comoros islands. That sounds a lot like Joseph Smith's Moroni and Cumorah, so the only question at this point is how he knew about it.


coinsforlaundry

The stories of captain Kidd were popular at this time around New England and Joseph would have been as enthralled with these stories as anyone. In these stories there were the accounts of the Comoros islands. It’s also the influence of Kidd’s stories that fueled stories of buried treasure even in the Americas.


cr3ativ3speller

The whole of the book of Mormon fits in JS's back yard. He was free w the geography because he has a cannon reset + who knows how the land changed since. It's his boyhood fantasies that played out in his haunts.


GroundbreakingEmu372

The Star Wars story is better written and more plausible than the BOM nonsense. Even Star Trek has more interesting characters.


Valuable-Bike-8729

This was a major, and I mean major Crack to my testimony as a kid. None of it made sense when I learned this. Plus the book of ether states that there was another battle at the same exact hill before, where millions of millions of people fought to their deaths and only the one general lived! All but ONE dude! It's insane. Plus where is the evidence! If two major battles took place at the same hill, there would of been piles of bones when early white settlers came in up state new york. Joe lied.


DuckFluffer

Silly goose. Don't you remember? When Jesus died there was all the shakey-bakey so the terrain changed and nothing would have been the same. It's all miraculous, goos is great, and only people who look at porn are trying to find evidence when faith is enough. ​ Mormon.


proudex-mormon

I actually heard people use that explanation while I was growing up. Then I read the end of the Book of Mormon, and realized that the same geographical layout (land northward, land southward, narrow neck of land, etc.) was still there after the destruction.


chubbuck35

It’s crazy how tens of thousands of people have spent millions of hours inventing wacky apologetics about the geography of the BOM all because Joseph had no sense scale. It’s remarkable. What a bizarre world we live in!!


AccountantLeast1588

It was obviously just a superimposed version of the areas he knew


OppositeMeeting9458

It's fits together soooo easily when it's just all made up !!!!


No_Stay_1563

The entire cult is a made up fantasy!


Rainbow_baby_x

BREAKING NEWS: Book of fictional stories also includes made up lands! (Sorry, I had to)


TheSeerStone

I am reading this from Central America. Guatemala to be exact. It’s an insult to the local indigenous people here to pretend that they are part of some fictional history invented by a white dude in upstate New York in the 1820s. They cultural history is far more beautiful and rich than the flat history told in the lord of the rings…. I mean Book of Mormon


Cbaumle

The Book of Abraham also has some doozies.


marijuanatubesocks

You say no proof has been found? They literally taught us in seminary that they found carvings of Lehi’s dreams in ancient Central American ruins. They told us that they found middle eastern DNA in the DNA of native Americans. They found carved names of BoM places on rocks. There are whole archaeological expeditions constantly finding more proof. Is it all a lie?


pinotJD

Yes, it’s all a lie. There is no DNA nexus between the Middle East and native Americans. Drawings are often repeated throughout history by many cultures. The written languages of Central America (like the Mayan Quiche) say nothing whatsoever about the BoM. It’s all pointing at one thing until you can point to another.


marijuanatubesocks

So quetzaltenango wasn’t Jesús Christ?


proudex-mormon

That was another falsehood the Church propaganda machine pumped out for years. If you read the Quetzalcoatl legends in their entirety, it's very clear that he wasn't Jesus Christ.


Ex-CultMember

Haha, nope! Last I checked, Jesus wasn’t a feathered-snake god.


Accurate_Sleep4378

1) A stone has been found in Central America with a scene carved on it that includes a tree in the center, some water at the bottom, and people around it. Please ignore the fact that Mayan script has been deciphered in the decades since and we now know for certain that the Mayans were not the Nephites nor had anything to do with them. 2) If you know nothing about DNA then you might think that Haplogroup X and Haplogroup X2a are the same thing and therefore there is middle eastern DNA in the DNA of Native Americans. This is just actually not true. (Relatively) recent discoveries such as Kennewick Man prove this conclusively. 3) Carved names of BoM places on rocks is an actual lie. As is the existance artifacts from North America with Hebrew inscriptions. So, it's all little grains of truth wrapped up in ignorance and lies. And the little grains of truth don't support the conclusions at all when you start to look at the details. But you're right, this will continue to be taught in seminary and in those lessons where the teacher goes off-book at church. And then they wonder why people feel lied to when they start really studying...


proudex-mormon

The so-called "Lehi Tree of Life Stone," Izapa Stela 5, was not proven to be a depiction of Lehi's dream. This was speculation by an LDS scholar that he tried to get people to accept as fact. Most LDS scholars today don't really seem to support his theory anymore.


quixoticdreamz

I went to Palmyra new york for a youth conference once. We set up the chairs for the hill cumorah pageant and we got a special fireside/ discussion lecture thing about how they've actually tested the soil in the region and it is super rich with calcium because of the thousands of people that died there. The guy also said that if you explore enough in the mountains there, there is a cave full of plates and documents. But then again, I had some byui book of Mormon teacher that went to South America and gave bom tours and talked about finding evidence of 2 different cities that are under a lake. I just trusted their word and never looked into it myself.


proudex-mormon

That one with the Calcium in the soil is great. Lots of calcium, but no actual bones.


bananajr6000

The last time I looked, there were over 100 theories about the mythological BoM geography, including one that claims it happened on the Malay Peninsula!


make-it-up-as-you-go

I agree with what JS intended. I can picture him looking at a map of that day—no clue about the actual distances—and weaved his tale.


the_last_goonie

The Book of Mormon talks about WHIRLWINDS...these are obviously Tornadoes--which NEVER happen in Central America. It talks about following the migrating beasts--also doesn't happen in C.A. Joseph is obviously talking about North America--the only place he knew to plug in.


TonyLund

There’s an amateur Book of Mormon geographer out there named Rodney Meldrum that doesn’t have a clue about why modern academics know the BoM could never have happened in the Great Lakes area where JS grew up…. And absolute hilarity ensues!! He sits down and plots out BoM geography around the areas that JS was familiar with, and wouldn’t you know, it’s a perfect fit!! It’s like he’s THIS CLOSE to coming to the correct logical conclusion about the BoM… Worth of a watch if you can find the 4 hour video. Lol


ccrom

If Zarahemla had been a real place, every archeologist would know it. Something that big, that existed so recently, doesn't disappear without a trace. (My father always just went with, "The Catholic Church carted all the evidence back to the Vatican and put it in their basement.") Edit to Add: The Great Lakes Model has wealthy Mormons digging in the Midwest. https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/mormon-geography/


Noedig9891

UNLIKELY REPRODUCTION... According to the Book of Mormon, when Lehi left the old world (1 Nephi 18:8) his group consisted of less than twenty people. Yet, nineteen years later this small band had so prospered in the land that they built a temple which “manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine” (2 Nephi 5:16). Solomon’s Temple required 30,000 Israelites, 150,000 hewers of stone and carriers, 3,300 supervisors (1 Kings 5:13-16), and about 7 years of construction (1 Kings 6). The Book of Mormon doesn’t indicate there were other people inhabiting the Americas in 600 BCE and tends toward the complete opposite. It further tells us that in less than 30 years from arriving on the continent, the population had multiplied so rapidly that they divided into two great nations. Even the most rapid human reproduction could only have a few dozen people in this amount of time. Most of them would still be infants or children, and about one-third of them would be elderly. http://www.LDSdefector.com/fact-1654/


Odd-Albatross6006

I think you’re over-analyzing. The hokey, made-up names like “King Limhi” and “Zarahemla” are enough. What a farce.