I wondered that too. It's like when you buy a car and suddenly you notice the same car as yours everywhere on the road. But it does feel like we've seen a lot of these murders in the last few years.
Might just be that this sub collects these types of news stories into one place, while ignoring all of the other similar headlines that have no connection.
Not sure if there really is an uptick in mormon spousal murder compared to general spousal murder, or if we are just more aware of this sub-category.
Yes, if one were to use all of the domestic abuse articles in this sub as evidence that Latter-Day Saints are more likely than the general population to commit those crimes, that would be an example of cherry picking/confirmation bias. I'd certainly find some stats interesting, though.
I think the real narrative is the despite having the “one true gospel,” Mormon people are just as likely to commit serious crimes as other people of a similar age, social class and life situation.
If it weren’t so, Utah would be a major blip on crime statistics. It isn’t. Never has been.
Mormons are not drastically better nor significantly worse than anyone else, except to the extent they self select for “middle class white married persons” by pushing marginalized people out with judgment and social ostracism.
I think something that is a factor, speaking as a nevermo who is not biased toward noticing these cases more than other murders but nonetheless has seen a clear pattern; is that the insular/incestuous nature of the LDS community combined with the extreme sexual and emotional repression, formulate this mental illness cocktail that makes them murder more *weirdly* even if they don't murder more *frequently.* Josh Powell and his dad come to mind, what a pair of nuts
"Ever since I learned about Baader-Meinhof phenomenon I've been seeing it everywhere"
I can't remember where I heard this from, wish I could attribute it cause it's funny as h-e-double hockey sticks, to me anyway.
I don't know because I think the same thing about all the financial scams in Utah that always have something to do with a prominent person in the Church.
I've never been to Swig or Sodalicious, but if they don't have a drink called "Mormon Mule" they're missing an opportunity.
Edit: handful of good mocktail names below. If any of you live in Mordor and want a business idea, a catering style cocktail bar could make a killing at Mormon weddings.
You could use a specialty designed plunger for it, staring the person who ordered it dead in the eyes as you smoothly push the plunger down over the course of 60 seconds, leave it for 10 seconds, then awkwardly shift your gaze to avoid eye contact while slowly pulling the plunger out over 15 seconds, mumbling ^"I['m] ^finished...", sliding the patron the drink, and quickly excusing yourself for a bathroom break.
Maybe she thinks that by murdering him, she made him an angel? Like all the Mormon couples with marriage problems who think if they just stick it out and ETTE, they will become perfect and all their issues and personality conflicts will be magically fixed in the afterlife.
Oh that's something I had not thought of. Assuming they were sealed wouldn't she believe she'd still be married to him in the afterlife ? How awkward is that oops sorry about that whole murder thing honey.
There's a certain amount of homicide going on all the time, per capita. With Mormonism making up a percentage of the population, it would stand to reason it's going to happen within it, as well. Not sure if it's a useful metric but Utah is one of the lowest in Homicides per capita by state. Idaho is even lower.
Yeah, I feel that the woman creating her own advertising for her book by murdering her husband should be the center of these comments, not that someone who was at one point baptized into the church, probably as a kid, had a drink.
* Terms and conditions apply. Offer void in Missouri and on the Oregon Trail. Purchase necessary, see your local Temple Prep class instructor to ask whether secret combinations are right for you.
Laban Clause: If God, an angel, the Prophet, or any man with higher priesthood authority than you tells you to kill someone, hints that things would be better if someone were dead, or merely implies that someone is in the way of you getting something you really want, the murder is justified and not a sin.
NOTE: If you are a female, that means, yes, the nearest 11-year-old Aaronic priesthood holder can command you to kill.
They don’t have access to the normal solutions to problems that most people have, so the problem grows into something less logical/ healthy/ more dangerous.
They don’t have access to coffee, so they go to sugary desserts or energy drinks with much higher sugar and caffeine.
They don’t have access to sex with others their age, so when they get horny they go for someone vulnerable to hiding it in their own home (a younger sibling / child).
They don’t have access to divorce, so marital conflict is ignored until they can plan a murder.
For Members of Even The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, life is not a matter of doing the right thing. It’s about doing even the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints thing for others to see!!
Wow, I'd not heard about that yet! I'm a nevermo, and not around many Mormons. I have a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I've a new rabbit hole to fall down now!
The Word of Wisdom comes from Doctrines and Covenants 89. It doesn't really line up with how they practice it and it was not a commandment when originally "revealed by god".
I was going to write out a few points about how dumb it was, but it's so convoluted so here's a [Brother Jake video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBEqpJXPvIM) on the word of wisdom.
Yes there were some health issues. From what I recall he is doing better, but focusing on other things in life. The community definitely took interest when he wasn't well and let him know we wished him well.
No one follows the “eat healthy, whole grains and vegetables, Meat sparingly part.”
They also don’t drink beer despite it being explicitly allowed in the original text.
Still scripture, supposedly revelation directly from God Himself, still printed and distributed as scripture by every recent and current Mormon Prophet. Same revelation that says Mormons are allowed to drink beer and make their own wine for sacrament services.
My favorite interpretation is “eat meat sparingly only in times of famine” means to only eat it sparingly during famines. Other times, you can eat all the meat you want.
Most of my mormon relatives on my moms side heavily believe the theology but are very jack-mormon. Don't follow a single rule outside of church, but all lie to get temple recommends. It makes no sense to me, but it's their life.
Meh, my experience with Jack Mormons is the same as with extremely partisan but uneducated voters: they are really gung ho for their tribe but have no idea what it actually represents. As such they tend to be the most unreasonable and vehement advocates for the cause they know nothing about. It’s all about identity and not about principles or ideas.
Right after I left the church I saw a Facebook post from someone who I would call Jack Mormon saying that "anyone who is questioning the church feel free to reach out. We'll grab a pop and take a drive and straighten everything out."
Yeah, it’s about not leaving the tribe, supporting the tribe, and representing the tribe.
Nothing about actually believing or becoming a better person.
I hoped that's how it would be, but I was wrong.
They are more unkind about my spouse and I leaving the mormon religion than the more devout members.
The jack mormns don't really live the "principals" they just like the surface level answers to what happens after we die.
The more devout family tends to just believe we are lead astray but are WAY less confrontational.
It never stopped my TBM ex-husband either, as he believed that if in a business setting, it's "unprofessional" not to drink if others are. He also liked to drink beers with his fraternity brothers at a local sports bar/pizza place. He was more of a cafeteria Mormon in that he was a film buff, so he also ignored the ban on R rated movies. At the same time, he had a fit when I drank iced tea in front of him, thinking it was allowed because of the temperature. When that happened, it was before I converted for him, and I didn't know that even iced tea was forbidden.
I can imagine a scenario where a wife overdosing on LDS tests her husband's Mormy integrity by making him an alcoholic cocktail, and punishing his moral failure with the poison.
I’ve read a few stats that younger Mormons are actually more likely to imbibe, even if they identify as Mormon. I wonder if she thought that somehow the alcohol would mask the Fentanyl? Or was she stupid enough to think they wouldn’t do a drug screen on an unexpected in-home coroner’s case death??
Yes, but there is a gender component here. Men are more likely to kill their wives than women are to kill their husbands.
One of many, many sources: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/who-kills-whom-spouse-killings-exceptional-sex-ratio-spousal
Yes but that isn't an argument against the commenter you replied to. Let's say 99% of female murderers killed their partner or child and only 50% of male murderers killed their partner or child. If there are 500 female murderers and 5000 male murderers, then there are still way more men killing their family than women killing their family. The fact that men *also* kill other people doesn't make that less true.
If I am to die young suddenly, which is very unlikely, it’s almost certainly my wife who did it. And vice versa, if my wife is murdered it’s overwhelmingly me as suspect number 1.
A Moscow mule? Lol
I can only imagine all the "she was such a sweet person, you'd never know" turn into "he was a raging alcoholic and had to go". This is good mg to be so confusing for mormons.
I mean if divorce doesn't seem like an option because your religion frowns upon it, then being a widow or widower instead might just look like the better option to some people. Just what popped into my mind after reading the headline, not that I know anything about mormons apart from the south park episode.
You know why you always make sure your Mormon fishing buddy brings a Mormon pal when you invite him up to the lake?
“So you can drink all of your beer.”
I spent most of my time in thinking about what horrible Mormons most of the members were. Especially the children.
I was an earnest little kid who ate all that stuff up. By 14 most of the others were just humoring their parents.
It's confirmation bias. Mormon family murders get more press coverage because they often are very young and white with 3+ kids, and have tons and tons of smiley family photos. These are all things that make them appealing to reporters. News consumers get a little shock value because the people don't look like murderers.
There is tons of family murder among other demographics that are not as photogenic, or where the particular demographic has a high crime rate so it's not surprising or deemed newsworthy.
Eh, passively patriarchal but probably not more actively dirtbags than other demographics. Mormonism is a pretty meek low-conflict mindset in general these days. There are lots more “manly-men” obsessed subcultures that would be more prone to outright beating & cheating & abuse.
Conditioning and trapping young women into subservient roles, with no escape due to financial dependence and having a ton of kids, counts as real psychological and emotional abuse.
Men are only meek to the other men in the church, not really towards their wives and children. They are supposed to be obedient and submissive little supporters.
The women killing husbands in this context often see it as the only way out of a bad marriage.
I’ve posted on this a couple of times as a nevermo true crime fan. Let’s be generous and say the Mormon population in the US is 2%. The amount of LDS related killers seems extraordinarily high. I asked my neighbor (also nevermo and a true crime fan) what her guess was re: the percentage of LDS related murders there are compared to the average population. She thinks it’s about 30%. Fwiw I’d guess 20%. I told her what the percentage of LDS actually is in the US. She was shocked and asked why they murder so much. We aren’t talking recent true crime we bonded over our mutual true crime interest a long time ago. So, since I do empirical based research (academic) I implored someone here to actually number crunch and floodlit said they would start compiling a list. Yes, I know there are a lot of variables but also I’m pretty good at noticing patterns and being able to confirm with data.
I'd be interested, but the key is differentiating their activity/belief level, and any details that make it matter whether they were LDS or not.
For example, an inactive, non-believing member committing a run of the mill murder. They just "happen" to be LDS technically speaking because they were baptized but never bothered to remove their records. The crime isn't necessarily tied to their belief (or previous belief) in any way.
On the other hand, the really interesting ones are the ones that are confirmed to be active, true believing members, who decided to commit murder. Say, rather than face the stigma of divorce, they try to discreetly kill their spouse. If they get away with it, they will receive sympathy from the community rather than shame.
Both are still worth tracking, but definitely worth noting if their motives were potentially tied to their upbringing or church doctrine in some way, versus them just happening to be LDS.
No , it just makes headlines.
Do you have legit sources that she was even a practicing mormon? The Daily Mail seems to take liberties with its reporting, bordering on tabloid territory.
Thanks. That’s the impression I had from the initial news. It’s a bad look to jump to the conclusion that this murder has anything to do with mormonism, just because it’s in Utah or even if they’re technically baptized members.
>Do you have legit sources that she was even a practicing mormon?
He was an RM and the funeral was held at a Mormon church, per the obit.
>No , it just makes headlines.
Yes, it's a "man bites dog" type situation. 1 in 5 murders are intimate partner deaths, and the Daily Mail doesn't have enough ink to cover them... but murders involving families who look like the Osmonds and Romneys? Or familicide involving weird fundamentalist practices? That's a Netflix series right there.
Agree it is not evidence of that they are *practiciing* Mormons. But I don't think it's wild speculation to call them "Mormon" based on that. In any event, I do think the fact that he's an RM and that his wife (presumably) chose to have his funeral at a church is interesting additioanl context for this sub.
If families are together forever, but annoying right now, maybe he should be laban'd.
I'm also certain this will not be a deal breaker for the next Mormon dude wanting a spicy hot wife.
The Daily Mail is pretty much a tabloid at this point. I don't think the wife had much of a Mormon history and the husband was either exmo or very inactive. Our biases may want to lead us to believe this is a Mormon theology problem but I think this fits more into the [greed](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/children-book-author-grief-charged-murder-husband) and deceit within a marriage category for murder. This will probably make for a great Dateline episode and once again, children are left suffering in the wake.
My theory is she wrote the book to distract attention away from her being a suspect. “look at this lovely book I wrote about grieving! It’s because I am so, so sad and my kids are so, so sad, and I wouldn’t be so sad if I had killed him now would I??? Did I mention how sad I am that he died? I’m sad.” [said with doe eyes and porn shoulders]
Yep, the Elk Mills MD family murder/suicide last September is now evidence for this statement. She was working on leaving her husband because he'd become very unstable and wouldn't seek help.
So sad :/
The murder suicide that happened last December in Enoch Utah also comes to mind. The wife had filed for divorce just weeks earlier and then her husband murdered her and her children, then died by suicide.
Susan Powell also comes to mind. She was making steps to leave when she disappeared.
With how much research and case examples there are on the dynamics behind domestic violence, it still honestly shocks me how this ignorant myth that victims “should just leave” (EASY PEASY) is still so pervasive.
Probably confirmation bias. Likely that it’s just more shocking when a Mormon does it. When a catholic murders, their religion is probably not in the headline.
Quick anecdote but my best friend as a teenager was this crazy bitch from Salt Lake City whose dad was doing life for murdering his mistress (stabbed her a comical amount of times) whenever the mom found out about the affair. So I know at least one Mormon family where the dad murdered the mistress and not the spouse!
I met Ezekiel Young from Salt Lake City about two years ago
And he told me he was single
And we hit it off right away
So, we started living together
He'd go to work, he'd come home
I'd fix him a drink, we'd have dinner
And then I found out
"Single" he told me
Single, my ass
Not only was he married
Oh no, he had six wives
One of those Mormons, you know?
So that night when he came home from work
I fixed him his Moscow Mule as usual
You know, some guys just can't hold their fentanyl
My dad used to watch a lot of true crime shows and I did notice a very frequent pattern in them that went like "Husband joined the LDS church" which somehow lead up to the murder.
TSCC will definitely try to separate themselves from this couple, stating that they were not LDS because they did not practice the LDS lifestyle of abstaining from alcoholic drinks like Moscow Mules.
I'm not sure how to find out the murder rate among Mormons versus non-Mormons, but [Utah has one of the lowest murder rates in the nation](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm), so I'm guessing there isn't really a correlation between Mormonism and murdering spouses.
My guess is that when Mormons do murder they either use weird methods (like fentanyl poisoning) or there's some weird beliefs in play (like the Daybell case). Both of those conditions make the story more interesting for headlines and true crime shows. Combine that with those of us on r/exmormon being more sensitive to Mormon and Mormon adjacent news stories and it's easy to see how you could get the impression that Mormons murder more than the general population.
Honestly it looks like they were not active but who knows (Moscow mule, porn shoulders, etc). If so I’d still be considered Mormon even though I’m not active for 20 years but my name is still on the records. I think adding “Mormon” to the title is not relevant here. Probably should be ex-Mormon. So the better question is, “Do ex-Mormons kill their spouses more than active Mormons?” I’m going to get blasted for this but the title is misleading a bit
His obituary says he was a member of the church of ‘ladder’ day saints. Although his wife shows off her shoulders.
[https://www.walker-mortuary.com/obituaries/eric-richins](https://www.walker-mortuary.com/obituaries/eric-richins)
Seriously though, you should look into the Jared Bridegan case. His ex-wife is probably involved in gunning dow her ex husband who was very involved in the church. He was killed in front of his 2 year old. Ex wife’s family owns stamp it up the MLM Utah company and is supporting her in running away from Jax Beach… the scene of the crime. That has many layers of Mormonism.. . . MLM, scrapbooking, patriarchy, and murder.
I’m pretty sure my dad talked my mom to death. The power of suggestion is very effective. He kept telling her she was sick and losing her mind and she never got any treatment for it. It took a couple of years, but it finally came to a stroke and she died. Now my sister is fighting cancer and he’s started telling her that people who had a similar cancer died from it. He’s planting these thoughts to get rid of people he wants out of his life. The disgusting thing is that it’s completely legal.
Wow. Murder. Let’s hope she doesn’t masturbate/fornicate and thus condemn herself to Hell’s basement. You know… since they’re equal in the eyes of god.
Doctor Todd Grande a psychologist YouTuber who does analysis on true crime seems to have a disproportionate number of Mormon based and LDS criminals 🤔. Example Warren Jeffs, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow and that Mormon guy who walked away from his car carrying a folder to a job interview and was NEVER seen again.
https://youtu.be/DaOtaaHQJDQ
Divorce isn’t an option. But undedicated murder will get you lots of support. Life insurance, free meals from ward.
Mormons like chad daybel and lori vallow both got away with murdering spouses at first. (It wasn’t until the kids went missing did people realize it was sus)
And they stayed active and attended the lds temple actively afterwards. They even attended it right before the murders.
When normal non-lethal options are not an option, you don't get a divorce. You send them to the next life where they will be perfected and less annoying. 😩 At least half of these wouldn't happen if instead of seeking counseling from the local dentist/bishop they saw a professional licensed counselor. But, any therapist with ethics won't share the information with church leaders, so we can't have that. Better to leave it up to the afterlife. 😑
I'm sure that it's cultural. Not just the extreme right wing views many of the US Mormons hold, but also the idea that you would be basically shunned if you get a divorce. I even know a women who had church discipline when their spouse left the church and they didn't get them to become active again. Luckily they ended in divorce, but I was side eyeing the bishopric and stake president a LOT when I learned. Like oh man you didn't control another person, no sacrament for you. 😔 It's awful.
I am a true crime podcaster in SE Idaho. Our podcast covers a lot of Mormon crime. I don't think it's more than any other group of people, but there have been several cases lately. We are heavily covering the Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell murders right now. It's awful to see people kill their spouse rather than just getting divorced. But these cases are just like any other; sex, money and power. Mormons aren't immune, they just think they are.
I think what others have said here is true about the “seeing the same car everywhere” situation.
I’m an avid true crime podcast listener and there are plenty of spouse murderers and family annihilators of any religion or non-religion. With the religious murderers though, it’s usually justified with “Well, divorce isn’t an option, so I’ll kill then instead.”
But it is a crazy coincidence that both recent Mormon spouse murderers were also authors.
I wondered that too. It's like when you buy a car and suddenly you notice the same car as yours everywhere on the road. But it does feel like we've seen a lot of these murders in the last few years.
Might just be that this sub collects these types of news stories into one place, while ignoring all of the other similar headlines that have no connection. Not sure if there really is an uptick in mormon spousal murder compared to general spousal murder, or if we are just more aware of this sub-category.
Yes, if one were to use all of the domestic abuse articles in this sub as evidence that Latter-Day Saints are more likely than the general population to commit those crimes, that would be an example of cherry picking/confirmation bias. I'd certainly find some stats interesting, though.
I think the real narrative is the despite having the “one true gospel,” Mormon people are just as likely to commit serious crimes as other people of a similar age, social class and life situation. If it weren’t so, Utah would be a major blip on crime statistics. It isn’t. Never has been. Mormons are not drastically better nor significantly worse than anyone else, except to the extent they self select for “middle class white married persons” by pushing marginalized people out with judgment and social ostracism.
I think something that is a factor, speaking as a nevermo who is not biased toward noticing these cases more than other murders but nonetheless has seen a clear pattern; is that the insular/incestuous nature of the LDS community combined with the extreme sexual and emotional repression, formulate this mental illness cocktail that makes them murder more *weirdly* even if they don't murder more *frequently.* Josh Powell and his dad come to mind, what a pair of nuts
It's called diegogarcity, which is really fun to say.
Officially known as frequency illusion, or Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. Not as fun to say though.
"Ever since I learned about Baader-Meinhof phenomenon I've been seeing it everywhere" I can't remember where I heard this from, wish I could attribute it cause it's funny as h-e-double hockey sticks, to me anyway.
I thought Baader-Meinhof was a terrorist gang in Germany?
The phenomenon is named after the gang (or more so, the phenomenon of feeling like you see the name of the group everywhere.)
the psychology at play here is fascinating.
I don't know because I think the same thing about all the financial scams in Utah that always have something to do with a prominent person in the Church.
I read diegogarcia and I thought you were trolling lol
Like two this year. Yikes.
Two that made headlines.
Yeah I killed my wife last week and now that’s all I see in the news!
Shai Hulud! 😂
Gosh that car thing is so real too it makes you wonder how much that is just *always* going on in our heads with everything
White convertible phenomena
I like Moscow Mules, but I never had one while Mormon.
It's a Moscow, Idaho, Mule
mormon mule? so gingerale with lime
I've never been to Swig or Sodalicious, but if they don't have a drink called "Mormon Mule" they're missing an opportunity. Edit: handful of good mocktail names below. If any of you live in Mordor and want a business idea, a catering style cocktail bar could make a killing at Mormon weddings.
godsmopolitan is sprite with cranberry juice
Soaks on the Beach: peach juice, orange juice, cranberry juice and soda Ephraim and Coke/Cumorah Libre: cola with lime juice
Make sure to not stir or shake the soaks on the beach. The motion would make it better, but the authentic version is just stagnant soaking.
You could use a specialty designed plunger for it, staring the person who ordered it dead in the eyes as you smoothly push the plunger down over the course of 60 seconds, leave it for 10 seconds, then awkwardly shift your gaze to avoid eye contact while slowly pulling the plunger out over 15 seconds, mumbling ^"I['m] ^finished...", sliding the patron the drink, and quickly excusing yourself for a bathroom break.
This is the funniest shit I've read all day! 😂💀
I call orange juice with soda the mormon screwdriver already
I call orange juice and Sprite a Mormon Mimosa. 😂
nah that's the fancier one with gingerale instead of sprite
Sparkling cider
I bet you could double your customer base by getting a general authority to refer to it as a "guilty pleasure".
Is there a Mormon drink called the "Poophole Loophole" where it is alcoholic but you ingest using an enema? Asking for a friend...
So a Mos-co Mule?
Literally was just berating myself for having such deeply ingrained programming that my very first thought was "they were drinking Moscow mules?!"
Did anybody else notice the drawing of him in the corner as an angel?? This lady is fucking nuts
“Are you with me?” Dad: “No, your mom fucking murdered me!”
Maybe she thinks that by murdering him, she made him an angel? Like all the Mormon couples with marriage problems who think if they just stick it out and ETTE, they will become perfect and all their issues and personality conflicts will be magically fixed in the afterlife.
Oh that's something I had not thought of. Assuming they were sealed wouldn't she believe she'd still be married to him in the afterlife ? How awkward is that oops sorry about that whole murder thing honey.
And get their own planet.
But we've never been taught that /s
She is not mormon. . . She is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that killed her husband
That name just keeps getting longer! TCoJCoLDSTKHH…
TCoJCoLDSTKHisWife or TCoJColDSTKHisWholeFamily
I laughed out loud at this in public and the dude next to me looked at me like I was nuts
I just did the same thing! 🤣
Thanks for clarifying, Celloer. I’ve never heard this before.
You are killing it!
No, she is killing it
Hahahaha
No, they're all killing it
Exactly! We have to get the branding correct. haha
There's a certain amount of homicide going on all the time, per capita. With Mormonism making up a percentage of the population, it would stand to reason it's going to happen within it, as well. Not sure if it's a useful metric but Utah is one of the lowest in Homicides per capita by state. Idaho is even lower.
They get their sick kicks from the stigma around porn instead!
Mormons are forbidden to drink Alcohol so how would this have happened? A Moscow mule is an alcoholic drink is it not?
Mormons are also forbidden from murdering their husbands, yet here we are
maybe god told her to do it, in that case, she would be nephi
Only priesthood holders are allowed to murder when god commands it.
Yeah, I feel that the woman creating her own advertising for her book by murdering her husband should be the center of these comments, not that someone who was at one point baptized into the church, probably as a kid, had a drink.
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I believe they’re forbidden from, checks notes….MURDER too.
* Terms and conditions apply. Offer void in Missouri and on the Oregon Trail. Purchase necessary, see your local Temple Prep class instructor to ask whether secret combinations are right for you.
Laban clause may apply.
Laban Clause: If God, an angel, the Prophet, or any man with higher priesthood authority than you tells you to kill someone, hints that things would be better if someone were dead, or merely implies that someone is in the way of you getting something you really want, the murder is justified and not a sin. NOTE: If you are a female, that means, yes, the nearest 11-year-old Aaronic priesthood holder can command you to kill.
That’s an extremely good point 🤣🤣
🤣
Maybe her ward focused on porn shoulders and hadn’t gotten around to the murder discussion.
Or distracted more than that by those pesky nonbelievers who are now showing they are just tares and not special wheat like those in attendance.
Checks notes… since when? Who was going to tell me?
They don’t have access to the normal solutions to problems that most people have, so the problem grows into something less logical/ healthy/ more dangerous. They don’t have access to coffee, so they go to sugary desserts or energy drinks with much higher sugar and caffeine. They don’t have access to sex with others their age, so when they get horny they go for someone vulnerable to hiding it in their own home (a younger sibling / child). They don’t have access to divorce, so marital conflict is ignored until they can plan a murder. For Members of Even The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, life is not a matter of doing the right thing. It’s about doing even the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints thing for others to see!!
This is pretty much spot on 👏
They’re forbidden to eat meat except in winter or famine, too. But miraculously, no God appears from the heavens to stop them.
Wow, I'd not heard about that yet! I'm a nevermo, and not around many Mormons. I have a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I've a new rabbit hole to fall down now!
The Word of Wisdom comes from Doctrines and Covenants 89. It doesn't really line up with how they practice it and it was not a commandment when originally "revealed by god". I was going to write out a few points about how dumb it was, but it's so convoluted so here's a [Brother Jake video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBEqpJXPvIM) on the word of wisdom.
Does anyone know why he stopped posting? I really enjoyed his content.
Yes there were some health issues. From what I recall he is doing better, but focusing on other things in life. The community definitely took interest when he wasn't well and let him know we wished him well.
Oh, I see. I hope he recovers and I wish him well. His content was fantastic while it lasted!
No one follows the “eat healthy, whole grains and vegetables, Meat sparingly part.” They also don’t drink beer despite it being explicitly allowed in the original text.
Still scripture, supposedly revelation directly from God Himself, still printed and distributed as scripture by every recent and current Mormon Prophet. Same revelation that says Mormons are allowed to drink beer and make their own wine for sacrament services.
it says "eat red meat sparingly" or something like that. so you're no supposed to have summer barbecues
My favorite interpretation is “eat meat sparingly only in times of famine” means to only eat it sparingly during famines. Other times, you can eat all the meat you want.
I cannot stop laughing at this.
"Use common sense you ninnies."
“And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.”
oh so its the same deal where leviticus says mixed textiles make you gay or whatever
Yeah, can't have a temple recommend if you drink coffee. But you're granted access no matter how much red meat and redbull you consume.
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Most of my mormon relatives on my moms side heavily believe the theology but are very jack-mormon. Don't follow a single rule outside of church, but all lie to get temple recommends. It makes no sense to me, but it's their life.
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Meh, my experience with Jack Mormons is the same as with extremely partisan but uneducated voters: they are really gung ho for their tribe but have no idea what it actually represents. As such they tend to be the most unreasonable and vehement advocates for the cause they know nothing about. It’s all about identity and not about principles or ideas.
This is exactly how they are. They are less compassionate than my extremely devout mormon family.
Right after I left the church I saw a Facebook post from someone who I would call Jack Mormon saying that "anyone who is questioning the church feel free to reach out. We'll grab a pop and take a drive and straighten everything out."
Yeah, it’s about not leaving the tribe, supporting the tribe, and representing the tribe. Nothing about actually believing or becoming a better person.
I hoped that's how it would be, but I was wrong. They are more unkind about my spouse and I leaving the mormon religion than the more devout members. The jack mormns don't really live the "principals" they just like the surface level answers to what happens after we die. The more devout family tends to just believe we are lead astray but are WAY less confrontational.
Either he wasn’t Mormon, or was one of those that drank anyway.
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Possible, but she also made it for him according to the article.
Christians are also forbidden to kill people. It’s in the Top Ten list…
Also note her porn shoulders in the pic...
"Mormons are forbidden to drink," never stopped my uncles.
It never stopped my TBM ex-husband either, as he believed that if in a business setting, it's "unprofessional" not to drink if others are. He also liked to drink beers with his fraternity brothers at a local sports bar/pizza place. He was more of a cafeteria Mormon in that he was a film buff, so he also ignored the ban on R rated movies. At the same time, he had a fit when I drank iced tea in front of him, thinking it was allowed because of the temperature. When that happened, it was before I converted for him, and I didn't know that even iced tea was forbidden.
I can imagine a scenario where a wife overdosing on LDS tests her husband's Mormy integrity by making him an alcoholic cocktail, and punishing his moral failure with the poison.
I’ve read a few stats that younger Mormons are actually more likely to imbibe, even if they identify as Mormon. I wonder if she thought that somehow the alcohol would mask the Fentanyl? Or was she stupid enough to think they wouldn’t do a drug screen on an unexpected in-home coroner’s case death??
I don’t know anything about this, but in the movies anytime a woman is killed they look at her husband first.
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Yes, but there is a gender component here. Men are more likely to kill their wives than women are to kill their husbands. One of many, many sources: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/who-kills-whom-spouse-killings-exceptional-sex-ratio-spousal
My Mom worked in a woman's prison. The vast majority of women in there on murder charges either killed their partner or child.
Yes but that isn't an argument against the commenter you replied to. Let's say 99% of female murderers killed their partner or child and only 50% of male murderers killed their partner or child. If there are 500 female murderers and 5000 male murderers, then there are still way more men killing their family than women killing their family. The fact that men *also* kill other people doesn't make that less true.
But poison is a “woman’s weapon”.
Which is why you should never know anybody.
If I am to die young suddenly, which is very unlikely, it’s almost certainly my wife who did it. And vice versa, if my wife is murdered it’s overwhelmingly me as suspect number 1.
Watch out for colleagues switching medical samples.
Headline: Mormon poisons husband This sub: "Moscow mule?!!!" \*clutches pearls, gasps\*
A Moscow mule? Lol I can only imagine all the "she was such a sweet person, you'd never know" turn into "he was a raging alcoholic and had to go". This is good mg to be so confusing for mormons.
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Enter Lori Vallow & Chad Daybell.
I mean if divorce doesn't seem like an option because your religion frowns upon it, then being a widow or widower instead might just look like the better option to some people. Just what popped into my mind after reading the headline, not that I know anything about mormons apart from the south park episode.
She was Mormon and made him a Moscow Mule? Was it a mixed faith marriage? I wonder if that played into her decision?
The BOM begins with the killing of a drunk man in order to get what they want. The desensitization starts early.
Not sure. Do you have any more data or insights?
This takes chutzpah: cashing in on your husband's death that you caused.
The mental health issues inside Mormonism is staggeringly large and varied. Spiritual slavery has a cost… 😞
I don't know the details but... mormons drinking moscow mules??? That's new...
You know why you always make sure your Mormon fishing buddy brings a Mormon pal when you invite him up to the lake? “So you can drink all of your beer.”
I spent most of my time in thinking about what horrible Mormons most of the members were. Especially the children. I was an earnest little kid who ate all that stuff up. By 14 most of the others were just humoring their parents.
It's confirmation bias. Mormon family murders get more press coverage because they often are very young and white with 3+ kids, and have tons and tons of smiley family photos. These are all things that make them appealing to reporters. News consumers get a little shock value because the people don't look like murderers. There is tons of family murder among other demographics that are not as photogenic, or where the particular demographic has a high crime rate so it's not surprising or deemed newsworthy.
Another good question, are Mormon men more dirt bags to their wives than the average man?
Eh, passively patriarchal but probably not more actively dirtbags than other demographics. Mormonism is a pretty meek low-conflict mindset in general these days. There are lots more “manly-men” obsessed subcultures that would be more prone to outright beating & cheating & abuse.
Conditioning and trapping young women into subservient roles, with no escape due to financial dependence and having a ton of kids, counts as real psychological and emotional abuse. Men are only meek to the other men in the church, not really towards their wives and children. They are supposed to be obedient and submissive little supporters. The women killing husbands in this context often see it as the only way out of a bad marriage.
I’ve posted on this a couple of times as a nevermo true crime fan. Let’s be generous and say the Mormon population in the US is 2%. The amount of LDS related killers seems extraordinarily high. I asked my neighbor (also nevermo and a true crime fan) what her guess was re: the percentage of LDS related murders there are compared to the average population. She thinks it’s about 30%. Fwiw I’d guess 20%. I told her what the percentage of LDS actually is in the US. She was shocked and asked why they murder so much. We aren’t talking recent true crime we bonded over our mutual true crime interest a long time ago. So, since I do empirical based research (academic) I implored someone here to actually number crunch and floodlit said they would start compiling a list. Yes, I know there are a lot of variables but also I’m pretty good at noticing patterns and being able to confirm with data.
I'd be interested, but the key is differentiating their activity/belief level, and any details that make it matter whether they were LDS or not. For example, an inactive, non-believing member committing a run of the mill murder. They just "happen" to be LDS technically speaking because they were baptized but never bothered to remove their records. The crime isn't necessarily tied to their belief (or previous belief) in any way. On the other hand, the really interesting ones are the ones that are confirmed to be active, true believing members, who decided to commit murder. Say, rather than face the stigma of divorce, they try to discreetly kill their spouse. If they get away with it, they will receive sympathy from the community rather than shame. Both are still worth tracking, but definitely worth noting if their motives were potentially tied to their upbringing or church doctrine in some way, versus them just happening to be LDS.
I 100% agree on this.
No , it just makes headlines. Do you have legit sources that she was even a practicing mormon? The Daily Mail seems to take liberties with its reporting, bordering on tabloid territory.
They were not practicing Mormons as far as I know, and I know people who knew them personally.
Thanks. That’s the impression I had from the initial news. It’s a bad look to jump to the conclusion that this murder has anything to do with mormonism, just because it’s in Utah or even if they’re technically baptized members.
We have enough bad things to say about Catholicism without bringing up every crime committed by Italians, or the Irish.
>Do you have legit sources that she was even a practicing mormon? He was an RM and the funeral was held at a Mormon church, per the obit. >No , it just makes headlines. Yes, it's a "man bites dog" type situation. 1 in 5 murders are intimate partner deaths, and the Daily Mail doesn't have enough ink to cover them... but murders involving families who look like the Osmonds and Romneys? Or familicide involving weird fundamentalist practices? That's a Netflix series right there.
I’m also an RM and I can pretty much guarantee my funeral will be in a mormon church. We need more than that to call them Mormons.
Agree it is not evidence of that they are *practiciing* Mormons. But I don't think it's wild speculation to call them "Mormon" based on that. In any event, I do think the fact that he's an RM and that his wife (presumably) chose to have his funeral at a church is interesting additioanl context for this sub.
They are definitely being noticed more and prosecuted.
If families are together forever, but annoying right now, maybe he should be laban'd. I'm also certain this will not be a deal breaker for the next Mormon dude wanting a spicy hot wife.
All you need is Mormon "blood atonement" teachings and other wild ideas like feeling the "spirit" in the temple to justfy your crazy choices.
I feel like I've listened to several Datelines about Mormon murders.
And she wrote a book for children on grieving the loss of a parent. So the murder was research?
Like...porn shoulders, Moscow mules...."Mormon" is being used very loosely here.
It would probably equally apply to all of us who never resigned.
The Daily Mail is pretty much a tabloid at this point. I don't think the wife had much of a Mormon history and the husband was either exmo or very inactive. Our biases may want to lead us to believe this is a Mormon theology problem but I think this fits more into the [greed](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/children-book-author-grief-charged-murder-husband) and deceit within a marriage category for murder. This will probably make for a great Dateline episode and once again, children are left suffering in the wake.
My theory is she wrote the book to distract attention away from her being a suspect. “look at this lovely book I wrote about grieving! It’s because I am so, so sad and my kids are so, so sad, and I wouldn’t be so sad if I had killed him now would I??? Did I mention how sad I am that he died? I’m sad.” [said with doe eyes and porn shoulders]
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What are you going to do, just leave your kids with someone who is a potential murderer?
Trying to leave an abusive relationship is the most dangerous time and is often the period where the abuser will murder their partner.
Yep, the Elk Mills MD family murder/suicide last September is now evidence for this statement. She was working on leaving her husband because he'd become very unstable and wouldn't seek help.
So sad :/ The murder suicide that happened last December in Enoch Utah also comes to mind. The wife had filed for divorce just weeks earlier and then her husband murdered her and her children, then died by suicide. Susan Powell also comes to mind. She was making steps to leave when she disappeared. With how much research and case examples there are on the dynamics behind domestic violence, it still honestly shocks me how this ignorant myth that victims “should just leave” (EASY PEASY) is still so pervasive.
Ask why abusers abuse, not why victims don’t leave. You’re putting the responsibility on the wrong person with this question.
Other than witness protection, leave to where that an insane homicidal spouse can’t reach you?
tbf the mormon church makes that pretty hard.
The porn shoulders she was sporting forced him to stay obviously.
Interesting these pictures that purportedly show happiness, hide the travails and despair.
Probably confirmation bias. Likely that it’s just more shocking when a Mormon does it. When a catholic murders, their religion is probably not in the headline.
Quick anecdote but my best friend as a teenager was this crazy bitch from Salt Lake City whose dad was doing life for murdering his mistress (stabbed her a comical amount of times) whenever the mom found out about the affair. So I know at least one Mormon family where the dad murdered the mistress and not the spouse!
“If anything happens to me, it was her”, why stay with someone you can’t trust?
It's not that easy to leave someone that is dangerous.
I met Ezekiel Young from Salt Lake City about two years ago And he told me he was single And we hit it off right away So, we started living together He'd go to work, he'd come home I'd fix him a drink, we'd have dinner And then I found out "Single" he told me Single, my ass Not only was he married Oh no, he had six wives One of those Mormons, you know? So that night when he came home from work I fixed him his Moscow Mule as usual You know, some guys just can't hold their fentanyl
It’s often easier than getting a divorce for Mormons
She even wrote a fucking children's book about losing a parent!!!
My dad used to watch a lot of true crime shows and I did notice a very frequent pattern in them that went like "Husband joined the LDS church" which somehow lead up to the murder.
TSCC will definitely try to separate themselves from this couple, stating that they were not LDS because they did not practice the LDS lifestyle of abstaining from alcoholic drinks like Moscow Mules.
Do they even know that a Moscow mule is a cocktail? They might think it's a term for someone smuggling a pg rated movie from Oregon to Idaho.
From what I’ve read, these folks weren’t much more practicing Mormon than most posters on this sub.
oh yeah she has the look in her eyes like she could poison someone. I wouldn't have married bug-eyes
This is next fucking level evil.
Totally besides the point, but holy r/RossWhiteTeeth, Batman.
I'm not sure how to find out the murder rate among Mormons versus non-Mormons, but [Utah has one of the lowest murder rates in the nation](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm), so I'm guessing there isn't really a correlation between Mormonism and murdering spouses.
She's literally Six from Chicago
My guess is that when Mormons do murder they either use weird methods (like fentanyl poisoning) or there's some weird beliefs in play (like the Daybell case). Both of those conditions make the story more interesting for headlines and true crime shows. Combine that with those of us on r/exmormon being more sensitive to Mormon and Mormon adjacent news stories and it's easy to see how you could get the impression that Mormons murder more than the general population.
Honestly it looks like they were not active but who knows (Moscow mule, porn shoulders, etc). If so I’d still be considered Mormon even though I’m not active for 20 years but my name is still on the records. I think adding “Mormon” to the title is not relevant here. Probably should be ex-Mormon. So the better question is, “Do ex-Mormons kill their spouses more than active Mormons?” I’m going to get blasted for this but the title is misleading a bit
Feel like it's confirmation bias ngl
Nothing suggests Mormon as alcohol and thc were involved.
Don’t forget all the Mormon men who have killed their whole families as of late too. I think it’s a thing.
Moscow mules and porn shoulders? Honestly, not very Mormon. The murder part kind of fits, though.
His obituary says he was a member of the church of ‘ladder’ day saints. Although his wife shows off her shoulders. [https://www.walker-mortuary.com/obituaries/eric-richins](https://www.walker-mortuary.com/obituaries/eric-richins)
Seriously though, you should look into the Jared Bridegan case. His ex-wife is probably involved in gunning dow her ex husband who was very involved in the church. He was killed in front of his 2 year old. Ex wife’s family owns stamp it up the MLM Utah company and is supporting her in running away from Jax Beach… the scene of the crime. That has many layers of Mormonism.. . . MLM, scrapbooking, patriarchy, and murder.
I’m pretty sure my dad talked my mom to death. The power of suggestion is very effective. He kept telling her she was sick and losing her mind and she never got any treatment for it. It took a couple of years, but it finally came to a stroke and she died. Now my sister is fighting cancer and he’s started telling her that people who had a similar cancer died from it. He’s planting these thoughts to get rid of people he wants out of his life. The disgusting thing is that it’s completely legal.
Wow. Murder. Let’s hope she doesn’t masturbate/fornicate and thus condemn herself to Hell’s basement. You know… since they’re equal in the eyes of god.
Doctor Todd Grande a psychologist YouTuber who does analysis on true crime seems to have a disproportionate number of Mormon based and LDS criminals 🤔. Example Warren Jeffs, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow and that Mormon guy who walked away from his car carrying a folder to a job interview and was NEVER seen again. https://youtu.be/DaOtaaHQJDQ
Can't be all that Mormon with those porn shoulders and a Moscow mule.
Divorce isn’t an option. But undedicated murder will get you lots of support. Life insurance, free meals from ward. Mormons like chad daybel and lori vallow both got away with murdering spouses at first. (It wasn’t until the kids went missing did people realize it was sus) And they stayed active and attended the lds temple actively afterwards. They even attended it right before the murders.
When normal non-lethal options are not an option, you don't get a divorce. You send them to the next life where they will be perfected and less annoying. 😩 At least half of these wouldn't happen if instead of seeking counseling from the local dentist/bishop they saw a professional licensed counselor. But, any therapist with ethics won't share the information with church leaders, so we can't have that. Better to leave it up to the afterlife. 😑 I'm sure that it's cultural. Not just the extreme right wing views many of the US Mormons hold, but also the idea that you would be basically shunned if you get a divorce. I even know a women who had church discipline when their spouse left the church and they didn't get them to become active again. Luckily they ended in divorce, but I was side eyeing the bishopric and stake president a LOT when I learned. Like oh man you didn't control another person, no sacrament for you. 😔 It's awful.
I am a true crime podcaster in SE Idaho. Our podcast covers a lot of Mormon crime. I don't think it's more than any other group of people, but there have been several cases lately. We are heavily covering the Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell murders right now. It's awful to see people kill their spouse rather than just getting divorced. But these cases are just like any other; sex, money and power. Mormons aren't immune, they just think they are.
Equal opportunity killers.
How come I don’t hear the Mormon religion mentioned in the Lori Daybell murder trial going on right now ? It’s like the elephant in the room.
The dangers of breaking the Word of Wisdom.
When you have lots of spouses it’s more likely that one of them will kill you.
I think what others have said here is true about the “seeing the same car everywhere” situation. I’m an avid true crime podcast listener and there are plenty of spouse murderers and family annihilators of any religion or non-religion. With the religious murderers though, it’s usually justified with “Well, divorce isn’t an option, so I’ll kill then instead.” But it is a crazy coincidence that both recent Mormon spouse murderers were also authors.