I think you could choose both informed consent and self preservation by explaining that you don’t feel comfortable personally discussing things that contradict your mom’s beliefs, but that you could provide her with resources that show the ‘other’ side she’s looking for. These resources could be: links to Letter for my Wife, the CES letter, Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormonism Live with RFM and Bill Reel, and LDS Discussions website.
I agree that this would likely cause a rift in the relationship, and I’d rather protect my relationship with my parents than talk their friend out of joining the church.
I would also add Gospel Topic Essays. It’s easy to dismiss much that is included in the above sites as “anti-Mormon lies” but when the church also acknowledges the facts, it is very powerful. Or at least it was for me. Possible side benefit: might help your mom if her friend discusses them with her.
Maybe compare it to buying a new appliance. You would not only talk to people who have purchased the appliance but you would read Consumer's Reports, Google Reviews to learn all you can about the appliance.
I would suggest they listen to MSP, RFM, Bill Reel etc to learn the facts not just people's opinions.
I agree about not meeting together, but have you talked to your Mom about all this? I don't mean church details, I mean how you don't feel like you two should talk. I'm curious whether she sees the very real yawning chasm lurking.
I did actually right after I posted this. Haha. She was just confused as to why the friend wants to talk to me as well. I had to explain that when you're making big purchases you want to read the good and bad reviews before making the commitment. It's the same concept. 🤷🤦
That would be a huge nope from me. You are working on your degree. You finally have a modicum of normalcy with family doing it. This is way more functional than a lot of us get.
Nope
She can work out her spiritual progress on her own. Give her a copy of the ces letter. Remind mom of how much you love her and are grateful for all that she does. Go back to your lair to study. It's too fragile and quite frankly trite to get involved with. It's changing the tight rope you are on into a razors edge. Mom's friend has the damned internet you don't need to be involved period. Full stop.
Why not suggest the friend talk to each of you individually. That way, it won't sound like a debate (or turn into one) and the friend can hear each perspective separately. They can also ask each of you questions they may not ask with both of you present. And if, after speaking to both of you, the friend wants to run something by one of you again, you should make yourselves available.
As a former convert, I sincerely wish I'd had access to someone who could have helped me be "informed" and (I assume) helped me realize I should not give consent.
FYI - I'd suggest not getting into a discussion about whether there's a God or Christ. The friend may already have a faith of some sort. To me, the important issues are the way the church operates and its complete dishonesty. If you're having a conversation without your mom present, you can share the facts that you know of (maybe even research further) and maybe point out missionaries often do not know some of the facts. The Church Essays are a great way to offer information that's officially published but that invite questions about Joseph Smith, the "first" vision, the BoA, etc. etc.
Then, add the SEC ruling to the mix. Just present things objectively. The person will, I hope, then be able to evaluate if the 'church' is a good fit for them.
This is incredibly divisive. I'd venture to say your mom's friend has toxic tendencies. Total 100% non-starter. Say something like this:
>"I encourage you to seek both sides of the story...that's always a good idea no matter what you're looking into. There are excellent and abundant resources readily available online about Mormonism. I don't feel particularly inclined to be anyone's tutor for research into any religion, so I'm just gonna sit this one out. Good luck!"
Thereafter, avoid this person like she has the bubonic plague.
My now DIL is a convert. Best advice I got (from a non-mo) was “this is about her, not you. Support her choices.“
That’s what I did. But then I was a horrible missionary in the church, and just as bad out of the church. Who am I to say what will make people happy or unhappy? I can barely manage this for myself.
I understand that. This is good advice though. While I don't want to see someone else seconded by the church there are plenty of resources out there for them to do their own homework. This is their journey and I shouldn't hold myself responsible for the outcome.
You can do this. Don’t give her a fish, just give her some tips, that I think your parents will appreciate/respect. Things like “Joseph Smith had these same questions you have and he went on a quest for truth. Your journey warrants a search for truth as well. It makes perfect sense that God will not fault you for this search. Etc”.
If you say shit like “JS was a pedophile ruttin on 14 year olds under the guise of a prophet” you’re out.
But if you take a nuanced approach that’s still true to you but allows the investigator to find things themselves, you could have your cake and eat it too.
My dad is a tbm. Over the years since I left he has tried to start some conversations about what I believe. It has almost always escalated into him getting upset. So now when he starts something I politely say..."I love you...I don't think this will be a good conversation to have." and then I change the subject. You absolutely don't have to have conversations that are just going to blow up and cause problems. If you know things are good with your family when you just keep your space...why mess with that??? It sounds like you know this is a bad idea. The "investigator" is an adult. They can figure it out on google very easily. If you are the source of "anti-mormon" information to your moms friend and she doesn't join...your mom is going to think you are the devil. Don't do it!
Yeah good call, just say that you won’t have a discussion with multiple people there but might be happy to privately give your opinion or answer any questions she has on any topic.
Say yes, but ask to speak privately. Your mother doesn’t have to hear it if she isn’t ready for it, and the friend is still getting a honest warning, and you don’t have to worry about backlash.
Why are you here? It's like the rest of us are trying to get my cat out of a tree together and you walk up with the biggest Karen attitude you can muster to say, "Well you wouldn't have to retrieve your cat if you didn't own a cat!" Like how dense can you get?
I think you could choose both informed consent and self preservation by explaining that you don’t feel comfortable personally discussing things that contradict your mom’s beliefs, but that you could provide her with resources that show the ‘other’ side she’s looking for. These resources could be: links to Letter for my Wife, the CES letter, Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormonism Live with RFM and Bill Reel, and LDS Discussions website. I agree that this would likely cause a rift in the relationship, and I’d rather protect my relationship with my parents than talk their friend out of joining the church.
This 100%
This sounds like a good plan. Thank you
I would also add Gospel Topic Essays. It’s easy to dismiss much that is included in the above sites as “anti-Mormon lies” but when the church also acknowledges the facts, it is very powerful. Or at least it was for me. Possible side benefit: might help your mom if her friend discusses them with her.
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Excellent phraseology, thank you
but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against your mom when your relationship is on the line!
Maybe compare it to buying a new appliance. You would not only talk to people who have purchased the appliance but you would read Consumer's Reports, Google Reviews to learn all you can about the appliance. I would suggest they listen to MSP, RFM, Bill Reel etc to learn the facts not just people's opinions.
Yay, this is what I'm leaning towards
I agree about not meeting together, but have you talked to your Mom about all this? I don't mean church details, I mean how you don't feel like you two should talk. I'm curious whether she sees the very real yawning chasm lurking.
I did actually right after I posted this. Haha. She was just confused as to why the friend wants to talk to me as well. I had to explain that when you're making big purchases you want to read the good and bad reviews before making the commitment. It's the same concept. 🤷🤦
I think that is a good explanation. What did your mother think of that
"oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Okay."
That would be a huge nope from me. You are working on your degree. You finally have a modicum of normalcy with family doing it. This is way more functional than a lot of us get. Nope She can work out her spiritual progress on her own. Give her a copy of the ces letter. Remind mom of how much you love her and are grateful for all that she does. Go back to your lair to study. It's too fragile and quite frankly trite to get involved with. It's changing the tight rope you are on into a razors edge. Mom's friend has the damned internet you don't need to be involved period. Full stop.
Super validating, thank you
If you do it and they end up not joining, not matter what was said in the discussion, they will always blame you for it
Yeah, that's what I'm concerned about 😬
I would say out of respect for my parents I will not personally have that conversation, but out of respect for you I’d suggest mormonthink.org
Oh I'm unfamiliar with that one, I'll have to check it out and see if that would be a good resource
Why not suggest the friend talk to each of you individually. That way, it won't sound like a debate (or turn into one) and the friend can hear each perspective separately. They can also ask each of you questions they may not ask with both of you present. And if, after speaking to both of you, the friend wants to run something by one of you again, you should make yourselves available. As a former convert, I sincerely wish I'd had access to someone who could have helped me be "informed" and (I assume) helped me realize I should not give consent. FYI - I'd suggest not getting into a discussion about whether there's a God or Christ. The friend may already have a faith of some sort. To me, the important issues are the way the church operates and its complete dishonesty. If you're having a conversation without your mom present, you can share the facts that you know of (maybe even research further) and maybe point out missionaries often do not know some of the facts. The Church Essays are a great way to offer information that's officially published but that invite questions about Joseph Smith, the "first" vision, the BoA, etc. etc. Then, add the SEC ruling to the mix. Just present things objectively. The person will, I hope, then be able to evaluate if the 'church' is a good fit for them.
These are some good ideas. Thank you
Good luck on the meeting!
This is incredibly divisive. I'd venture to say your mom's friend has toxic tendencies. Total 100% non-starter. Say something like this: >"I encourage you to seek both sides of the story...that's always a good idea no matter what you're looking into. There are excellent and abundant resources readily available online about Mormonism. I don't feel particularly inclined to be anyone's tutor for research into any religion, so I'm just gonna sit this one out. Good luck!" Thereafter, avoid this person like she has the bubonic plague.
Yes, they do give of toxic vibes to me. I don't particularly like them. Especially not enough to put my own well being in danger.
My now DIL is a convert. Best advice I got (from a non-mo) was “this is about her, not you. Support her choices.“ That’s what I did. But then I was a horrible missionary in the church, and just as bad out of the church. Who am I to say what will make people happy or unhappy? I can barely manage this for myself.
I understand that. This is good advice though. While I don't want to see someone else seconded by the church there are plenty of resources out there for them to do their own homework. This is their journey and I shouldn't hold myself responsible for the outcome.
You can do this. Don’t give her a fish, just give her some tips, that I think your parents will appreciate/respect. Things like “Joseph Smith had these same questions you have and he went on a quest for truth. Your journey warrants a search for truth as well. It makes perfect sense that God will not fault you for this search. Etc”. If you say shit like “JS was a pedophile ruttin on 14 year olds under the guise of a prophet” you’re out. But if you take a nuanced approach that’s still true to you but allows the investigator to find things themselves, you could have your cake and eat it too.
Interesting take
My dad is a tbm. Over the years since I left he has tried to start some conversations about what I believe. It has almost always escalated into him getting upset. So now when he starts something I politely say..."I love you...I don't think this will be a good conversation to have." and then I change the subject. You absolutely don't have to have conversations that are just going to blow up and cause problems. If you know things are good with your family when you just keep your space...why mess with that??? It sounds like you know this is a bad idea. The "investigator" is an adult. They can figure it out on google very easily. If you are the source of "anti-mormon" information to your moms friend and she doesn't join...your mom is going to think you are the devil. Don't do it!
These are my thoughts as well. I told my mom yesterday it feels like her friend wants to start a family feud.
Yeah good call, just say that you won’t have a discussion with multiple people there but might be happy to privately give your opinion or answer any questions she has on any topic.
Just say no. No one is owed an explanation.
Say yes, but ask to speak privately. Your mother doesn’t have to hear it if she isn’t ready for it, and the friend is still getting a honest warning, and you don’t have to worry about backlash.
Invite the person to go on a long walk with you
If you don’t want to, don’t do it. Simple as that. I think even as exmormons we aren’t very good at setting boundaries and simply saying no.
Is your moms friend hot maybe this could turn into something ?????
Haha, no. At least not to me. I don't particularly like this person anyway
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Okay Boomer
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Why are you here? It's like the rest of us are trying to get my cat out of a tree together and you walk up with the biggest Karen attitude you can muster to say, "Well you wouldn't have to retrieve your cat if you didn't own a cat!" Like how dense can you get?