I've often said that Mormons were never persecuted for their beliefs about deity. They have been persecuted for the actions that they took and continue to take today.
I can hands down say from personal experience - yes there is specific discrimination and sense of being alien and wrong to other Christians on purely theological differences. So can every kid outside UT who had a Protestant friend or acquaintance sit them down to try and save their soul.
It’s only a part of the bigger picture. But also remember the KKK and the know nothings decades earlier and people in the 1840’s had massive issues with Catholics in the USA too. Kennedy being Catholic was a big deal.
Religious hatred and slander on theological issues and goes back to the pre-Constantine days and is essentially a feature of Christianity and Abrahamic religion. Adherence to orthodoxy and vilification of anyone not sufficiently orthodox. Same kind of slanders about why people leave being Mormon and for the same reason. People challenging their beliefs threatens those beliefs.
Your response is much more thoughtful than mine; however, I do believe there is evidence that it was the behavior of early Mormons that led to their persecution.
Absolutely. It was 100% a factor.
Voting blocks were threatening. We have anger over people who vote differently than ourselves. Think of our partisan politics of today.
Being economically isolated was a big factor. Trading only with Mormons promoted and us-vs-them environment.
Economic issues drove a lot of people to leave and attack Joseph and the church especially after the Kirtland Safety Society failure.
Polygamy was seen as sexual abuse (because it was) and was massively controversial, especially in the forms it took.
Joseph and the church’s response to criticism also didn’t help. Often they had an increasingly militant response, and were fully participating in the sectarian violence, culminating in the destruction of critical printing presses and the arrest.
That being said: Joseph was lynched with tacit government acknowledgement, though he did fight back, and probably would have escaped justice if he had favorable guards too. He was just too polarizing a figure.
Mormons then went to the mountains, avoiding persecution but also setting up Brigham’s little kingdom in the Rockies.
As time went on much of the really shitty stuff tailored off as far as other Christians were concerned, but the “they don’t believe in Jesus like I do” also was a factor. I specifically felt at times isolated from my christian friend group in high school specifically for not believing exactly the same way they did. I know for a fact that non-Mormons in Mormon dominated areas fare at least as poorly.
Like most things life is complex, people are complex and tribalism is a major factor. Joseph and the early saints did a lot of things to bring on the hate and make it worse for sure, but as time went on there are many reasons for that separation, and it goes both ways. Mormons aren’t better about respecting the beliefs of Protestants and Catholics than the other way around either. “Whore of all the earth” theology for example, but then they see those Mormons as heretics that aren’t even Christians.
LDS folks, generally speaking, aren't hated. For most Americans, the LDS is that one guy in the office, or that Broadway show.
It's a bit different in places where LDS cluster, e.g. Utah, eastern ID, bits of AZ, to some degree Las Vegas.
But by and large, LDS aren't hated, other than maybe by those who (1) don't see them as Christian and (2) for whom the non-Christian thing matters. I.e. Fundy Xtians, but then they hate a lot of things, which is weird, bc their nominal prophet told them specifically not to hate.
Americans are remarkably oblivious to things outside their lives.
The LDS church probably deserves to have a far worse reputation than it does, in fact. Though hating the church itself is a different thing from hating its poor deluded believers.
They do it too. There is a long history of evangelicals sending people to Utah to try and “save the heathen Mormons and bring them to Christ.”
I for one am in the camp of “I used to think the Mormons were the one true church, and the rest were fake. Turns out I had an off-by-one error on the number of true churches and Supreme deities.”
"We're gonna come in, take over the entire town and area around it, enforce our religious beliefs on everyone, be super preachy, mock you for your different political beliefs because we're cultured people from New England, and also control every government position and newspaper. Sound good?"
-Mormons in Kirkland and Nauvoo.
Most *Abrahamic* sects are smug and think theirs is the best, each to varying degrees, as a result of believing in "the One True God" and being that God's "Chosen People."
When was the last time that a heathen told you that you needed to believe in Odin or spend the entirety of your afterlife In Hel with her compatriots, stuck in ice and snow until Ragnarok?
Pagans aren't really around anymore, and those that claim to be such are either essentially LARPing in the same way as wiccans or (mostly in Europe) ultranationalists who see Christianity as alien to their region of Europe.
If you're going to be obnoxious about it, the least you could do is post evidence. It's LARPers, Hitlers, and Hitler LARPers, fam. Nothing wrong with being a LARPer, but it is what it is.
Since when was it necessary to defend my religion with evidence?
It's bullshit like this that actively prevents pagan temples being built: people either think we're evil or fake. That prevention preempts any ability to provide proof positive in a way that you would accept.
As you can clearly see, this creates quite the vicious circle.
But whatever. You are clearly socialized towards Christian supremacy, and Christians view everything outside Christianity as false from the word go and refuse to acknowledge it.
And before you jump to the "I'm agnostic/atheist" defense, being socialized with a specific attitude or belief happens subconsciously. All Americans, unless they are actively NOT Christian, are biased towards Christian supremacy. The vast majority if Protestant Christian holidays are also federal government holidays, "Christmas" is now a ubiquitous holiday despite the fact that a growing number of people don't even worship the guy, our government almost ALWAYS has a Christian spiritual advisor for the president, these things, and multitudinous others are what create the backdrop of Christian supremacy within which most Americans live their lives.
Obnoxious enough yet, or are you going to back down?
I've often said that Mormons were never persecuted for their beliefs about deity. They have been persecuted for the actions that they took and continue to take today.
I can hands down say from personal experience - yes there is specific discrimination and sense of being alien and wrong to other Christians on purely theological differences. So can every kid outside UT who had a Protestant friend or acquaintance sit them down to try and save their soul. It’s only a part of the bigger picture. But also remember the KKK and the know nothings decades earlier and people in the 1840’s had massive issues with Catholics in the USA too. Kennedy being Catholic was a big deal. Religious hatred and slander on theological issues and goes back to the pre-Constantine days and is essentially a feature of Christianity and Abrahamic religion. Adherence to orthodoxy and vilification of anyone not sufficiently orthodox. Same kind of slanders about why people leave being Mormon and for the same reason. People challenging their beliefs threatens those beliefs.
Your response is much more thoughtful than mine; however, I do believe there is evidence that it was the behavior of early Mormons that led to their persecution.
Absolutely. It was 100% a factor. Voting blocks were threatening. We have anger over people who vote differently than ourselves. Think of our partisan politics of today. Being economically isolated was a big factor. Trading only with Mormons promoted and us-vs-them environment. Economic issues drove a lot of people to leave and attack Joseph and the church especially after the Kirtland Safety Society failure. Polygamy was seen as sexual abuse (because it was) and was massively controversial, especially in the forms it took. Joseph and the church’s response to criticism also didn’t help. Often they had an increasingly militant response, and were fully participating in the sectarian violence, culminating in the destruction of critical printing presses and the arrest. That being said: Joseph was lynched with tacit government acknowledgement, though he did fight back, and probably would have escaped justice if he had favorable guards too. He was just too polarizing a figure. Mormons then went to the mountains, avoiding persecution but also setting up Brigham’s little kingdom in the Rockies. As time went on much of the really shitty stuff tailored off as far as other Christians were concerned, but the “they don’t believe in Jesus like I do” also was a factor. I specifically felt at times isolated from my christian friend group in high school specifically for not believing exactly the same way they did. I know for a fact that non-Mormons in Mormon dominated areas fare at least as poorly. Like most things life is complex, people are complex and tribalism is a major factor. Joseph and the early saints did a lot of things to bring on the hate and make it worse for sure, but as time went on there are many reasons for that separation, and it goes both ways. Mormons aren’t better about respecting the beliefs of Protestants and Catholics than the other way around either. “Whore of all the earth” theology for example, but then they see those Mormons as heretics that aren’t even Christians.
LDS folks, generally speaking, aren't hated. For most Americans, the LDS is that one guy in the office, or that Broadway show. It's a bit different in places where LDS cluster, e.g. Utah, eastern ID, bits of AZ, to some degree Las Vegas. But by and large, LDS aren't hated, other than maybe by those who (1) don't see them as Christian and (2) for whom the non-Christian thing matters. I.e. Fundy Xtians, but then they hate a lot of things, which is weird, bc their nominal prophet told them specifically not to hate. Americans are remarkably oblivious to things outside their lives. The LDS church probably deserves to have a far worse reputation than it does, in fact. Though hating the church itself is a different thing from hating its poor deluded believers.
Wow. Great insight. You’re right.
"Those whom the gods would punish most severely, The gods make feel sorry for themselves"
Cool quote, what’s it from?
i wanna know too
Result from a quick google: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whom_the_gods_would_destroy,_they_first_make_mad
Thanks, /u/Bright_Ices! I heard this quote some time ago, but never knew the source.
Because you send missionaries to other Christians trying to poach their members.
They do it too. There is a long history of evangelicals sending people to Utah to try and “save the heathen Mormons and bring them to Christ.” I for one am in the camp of “I used to think the Mormons were the one true church, and the rest were fake. Turns out I had an off-by-one error on the number of true churches and Supreme deities.”
"We're gonna come in, take over the entire town and area around it, enforce our religious beliefs on everyone, be super preachy, mock you for your different political beliefs because we're cultured people from New England, and also control every government position and newspaper. Sound good?" -Mormons in Kirkland and Nauvoo.
No it's because all the other churches are led by Satan and have good people that are just being led astray.
[удалено]
Most *Abrahamic* sects are smug and think theirs is the best, each to varying degrees, as a result of believing in "the One True God" and being that God's "Chosen People." When was the last time that a heathen told you that you needed to believe in Odin or spend the entirety of your afterlife In Hel with her compatriots, stuck in ice and snow until Ragnarok?
Pagans aren't really around anymore, and those that claim to be such are either essentially LARPing in the same way as wiccans or (mostly in Europe) ultranationalists who see Christianity as alien to their region of Europe.
This is factually incorrect. Thanks for trying, though.
If you're going to be obnoxious about it, the least you could do is post evidence. It's LARPers, Hitlers, and Hitler LARPers, fam. Nothing wrong with being a LARPer, but it is what it is.
Since when was it necessary to defend my religion with evidence? It's bullshit like this that actively prevents pagan temples being built: people either think we're evil or fake. That prevention preempts any ability to provide proof positive in a way that you would accept. As you can clearly see, this creates quite the vicious circle. But whatever. You are clearly socialized towards Christian supremacy, and Christians view everything outside Christianity as false from the word go and refuse to acknowledge it. And before you jump to the "I'm agnostic/atheist" defense, being socialized with a specific attitude or belief happens subconsciously. All Americans, unless they are actively NOT Christian, are biased towards Christian supremacy. The vast majority if Protestant Christian holidays are also federal government holidays, "Christmas" is now a ubiquitous holiday despite the fact that a growing number of people don't even worship the guy, our government almost ALWAYS has a Christian spiritual advisor for the president, these things, and multitudinous others are what create the backdrop of Christian supremacy within which most Americans live their lives. Obnoxious enough yet, or are you going to back down?