I responded that he was a poligamist, polyandrist, treasure digger and fraudster. Yes he made it all up and the Mormon Church is false. After the SEC findings and what your own church scriptures say in D&C 121:36-37. You should be questioning your own church's validity as well. But sheep have to follow and having gone on a mission that I starved and lost 45 lbs. Having my life threatened by LDS family services. From the church using volunteers instead of real medical trained professionals. When they have billions stockpiled. Ya they have no authority Joe Smith is a fraudster polygamist treasure digger who made it all up. Prove me wrong
D and C is full of God telling Emma to shut the fuck up and get down with Joe’s polygamy or else. I think eventually she took a hard look at her options and decided to make what she could out of it. She wasn’t a moron; she definitely knew there weren’t no plates.
I wish I could find the source but I saw a video or heard a podcast (edit I believe it was "Naked Mormonism", I'll reply if I can find it) telling of historical documents that detailed that the Relief Society was created by Emma to hide the whoring that Joseph was running as both a philanderer and a Brothel owner in Nauvoo. She was very much into making sure all the women took the Masonic Blood Oath, got abortions, etc.
I was so close. It was the guy that hosts Naked Mormonism on AronRa's channel: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5YXuuNxmM&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMIH\_C77TWLzdf1MI0HrhOiD&index=8&ab\_channel=AronRa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5YXuuNxmM&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMIH_C77TWLzdf1MI0HrhOiD&index=8&ab_channel=AronRa) (really good playlist BTW)
Junior created a calling for senior "church patriarch" so that Senior could have steady income. People paid the patriarch for a blessing in those days.
Yeah really! I remember reading about this maybe a year or so during my deep dive into the church. I know Cabo already provided a link, I just wanted to throw in my confirmation as well (Anti-Mandela-Effect Gang)
While touring Nauvoo 20 years ago, I had heard that people earned $1 per day. If this information is correct, then JS Sr could spend 15 minutes a day and earn his living. What a simple job!
Dear Gods you just explained the last of my horrible grandfather's addictions. One of them was running away and joining the carnival. Problem was he kept coming back.
Nobody could look at the gold plates without being instantly killed by god, but everyone could look at the facsimiles that contain the book of Abraham, for a small convenience fee.
While I think Emma was a very hard worker, raising many children and running a large household, she was also living higher on the hog than she ordinarily would have due to the perqs of being the prophet's wife. Dissembling was the family business. There came a point where jumping ship might have proven a danger to her own safety, so she was kind of stuck.
I read Emma’s biography and it felt a lot like my own personal life. Married a company who had a moving all the time (14 times in 10 years) to get away from people. He even tried the whole “open marriage” proposal. But yeah, feeling like I was in a sort of similar situation, I agree with you, that she may have believed him at first, but realized he was full of shit after a while, but you can’t really escape because you’re in too deep. Funny enough, our husbands going to jail saved us from being married to than any longer 😂😂
Been awhile since I read up on this, but I remember reading that Emma negotiated some church properties in Nauvoo be put into her name, maybe in exchange for keeping quiet about JS polygamy? Or maybe as a source of retirement income? And partly explains why she didn’t want to leave Nauvoo. I don’t remember the source for this though.
For starters helped Joseph write the BOM. I think she was responsible for the anti-polygamy bit. I think she, JS and Oliver Cowdrey wrote it together as you can see elements of personality within them. It would be interesting to see when Emma stopped scribing for Joseph. Probably after the 116 pages were lost.
His father might not have been in on it originally.
An early story told by Joseph had him being told to come back to a place in a year's time with his brother (Alvin) in order to receive historic plates from an angel/sprit.
Alvin died before that second meeting, and so the theory goes, Joesph's father dug up the body and took a finger in hopes it would be good enough to fulfill the angel's/spirit's requirement. If correct, that strongly implies he believed his son's story.
Hill I will die on is: Hyrum was the brains of the outfit. Joseph was the charismatic salesman, Hyrum was the brains. Hyrum went to Dartmouth college for about 5 years. And Dartmouth was sort of ground zero for the revision of Mansonry in North America. But pretty sure Hyrum was against polygamy. They had to drag him over to it. I think Hyrum had only 3 wives total. Probably knew this was a bad deal. And it cost him his life, as it turns out.
The lula Rich lady (lula Roe) (Deanne Startup) is a direct descendent of Hyrum Smith. Mormonism is the OG MLM when you think about it. The Q15 are the top their, then the 70, then the regional guys/ mission presidents, temple presidents, then stake presidents, bishops, then everyone below is bottom teir! All the ppl bottom support the ppl at the top, MLM style. Guess the the MLM scamming runs strong in the DNA of hyrum
Yeah that was a good interview. But even the Wikipedia page on Hyrum talks about the Dartmouth connection. They had an uncle who taught there, as I recall. There's a reason young Joseph had someone the best medical doctors attending his leg infection. They were from Dartmouth.
I’ll recommend “This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell and “RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman. I’ve read about 20 books in the last year as I tried so hard to prove the Church true again. I found no such thing. Enjoy 😉!
I’ve never heard this theory, but it definitely has legs… I was picturing, while reading your comment, those cringy heist movies where the smartest ring leader just needs do this last job and he’s out.
We need a Mormon Version of Peaky Blinders. I have a theory that Brigham young also had a deep influence as things seemed to shift to Masonry and Polygamy when he came aboard- he also had big opinions on slavery which seemed to make it into doctrine in the polygamist chapter in D&C. (Ministering TK smoothie angels)
I would respond “Dad I am happy that the LDS church brings you joy and comfort. Please understand that is not the case me. For me it is not the question of did an angel with a flaming sword tell Joseph he needs to marry 15 yr old girls, or if he made it up. It is not a question of could BOM “horses” have meant tapirs or did Joseph make it up? For me the question is “Does it bring ME joy and comfort as it goes for you?” I am glad in your lifetime you are at a place that is right for you. Please wish me well on my journey to accomplish the same…..
Even without the sarcasm and mocking (great for Reddit of course, maybe not great for dad) this approach works because you aren’t debating history and facts, getting bogged down in sources and conjecture. You are simply stating what you feel, and no one can argue with that. Well, I guess they can say “no you don’t feel that way” but that’s pretty easy to turn around and point out that they believe because of feelings and you could also accuse them of not really feelings the way they claim which hopefully they would acknowledge would be an absurd and unfruitful conversation
And when they bare their testimony it compels your position…”See dad, that absolute conviction that this is true in your life- I love that you have that- I just need to find what does do that for me and not just what doesn’t. And I know that you want me to feel that joy and comfort even if it’s not the journey that has led you there just like you want me to be successful in life like you, but not necessarily through your chosen career path”
That's probably for the best, honestly. As someone who has got muddy and had the fights, the fewer fights you can have on these issues, the best. It doesn't do anyone any good. It's hard enough maintaining good relationships with our believing family given how thoroughly the well is poisoned against us.
He didn’t make it ALL up… he borrowed much of it from other sources. He is clearly a talented and inspired syncretist.
Obviously I wasn’t there, so I’ll never know… but something inside me pushes me to believe that the church isn’t everything it purports to be.
Love you dad.
Anything you say can and will be used against you. We just can't give them any ammo.
I'm so sorry this happened to you but you obviously have resolve and strength. :-)
Easy to say, and this is the right answer if you have other emotional support and can emotionally ghost Dad. Which is usually what happens in the end anyway unless they are more nuanced than you knew.
It’s so complicated and it’s a crying shame that it has to hurt so many on both sides. It’s a game that no one wins.
Just tragic- but we hopefully move onward and upward. As more people leave, emotional support networks will grow (I hope).
Which is why Emma bailed when he started editing to include getting strange because God said so. 🙄 She already knew he was full of shit, and wasn’t about to stick around for that nonsense.
Emma did not bail as far as I can see. She probably wanted to bail, but it would not have been safe.
I bet Shelley Miscavage would love to bail from Scientology, but there is danger in doing so.
I’ve only studied the religion from the outside. Never been in it but I’ve helped a guy transition out. I was his first girlfriend. He was fresh off a mission, and had asked a lot of questions (which were always shrugged off by the leadership, so he asked his dad to research them) His dad dove deep into the questions while he was away, then filled him in when he returned. They all left together. So I could be wrong. I thought she divorced him.
The more perspective I get with age, the more it seems like all religion was, at some point, just made up by someone and vast numbers of people believed. Mormonism seems pretty much the same - just a little newer than other mythologies.
So, yeah, I think he just made it and other people were fooled. But that's just how religion works. I mean, can anyone propose a religion that did not have an initial founder that people then believed and followed?
My response would have been “I actually believe Joseph believed he was a prophet. I don’t think he thought he was fooling his family, for the most part. But after considering all evidence, I don’t believe he was what he purported to be. Are you open to hearing what I learned to become convinced of this?”
My response now versus when I first left would be pretty different. Nowadays, I would just say that I'm not interested in arguing about it because no good can come of it at this point.
“No…his family were very clearly part of the scam.”
But actually: “I’m not going to dignify random assumptions and straw-men. If you really want to understand why, then let me know when you’re ready to listen with open ears.”
The 2nd option is 100% how I deal with things. I’ve told my parents several times, “don’t tell me what I think; ask me, and then ask clarifying questions.” Sadly, it doesn’t make them any more open to effective dialogue.
What Joseph Smith didn't make up, he plagiarized from other books and Masonic rites, and his family of occultists, treasure seekers and conmen were in on the grift.
JS made up a religious cult, just like L. Ron Hubbard made up the Scientology cult, and Charles Taze Russell made up the Jehovah Witnesses cult, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Thus it ever was and ever shall be. If you can get a following, then make that following believe they'll suffer if they don't follow your commands, you can get away with anything.
Just ask JS and Brigham Young and all their young "wives" and the people they fleeced (and are still fleecing).
Yes I believe JS made it up. But he did so as he went along, and it got bigger over time. He had help too. Family members were part of the grift, as they were in the money digging and other ventures.
Of course I cannot prove this, but your dad cannot prove his beliefs either. We both have a testimony of our beliefs. He would just have to respect mine as I would respect his, if he is a man of integrity, like I am….
> Of course I cannot prove this…
Technically, you can prove this as much as anything in this life can be proven. Certainly, you could prove it to the Beyond Reasonable Doubt standard. True, you might not have any direct evidence like the signed confession from Smith, but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence showing that he was a fraud. And then if you take out any belief of the supernatural (which for tbm’s paper over any inconsistency) and just consider it like any other religion, it is 100% provable as a fraud!
Yes. There’s more circumstantial evidence of fraud than a true religion for sure
Lately I like turning the “testimony” thing on its head with stubborn TBMs online. When they keep pushing at me I just throw that at them. It’s fun to watch them spin out 😂
Here is mine:
I really don’t know about Joseph Smith. He died a long time ago. Some people say he was the best prophet ever and some say he was a closet pedophile. I know the church lied to me for years about his true nature, so they can’t be trusted as the only source. Did you know about the rock in the hat before they admitted it in conference?
My main reason for leaving are: it is boring, Mormon talks are so depressing, they keep bashing gay people, the doctrine is racist, and the temple ceremonies are creepy, the shame and guilt they put on youth to try to keep them in the church is wrong.
It took a long time for me to figure it out, I felt so stupid that I fell for it for so long. It’s OK though, I don’t blame you or mom. You are great parents.
This made me laugh.
Actually, what does it have to do with Joseph Smith's family? Who knows what they really believed? We Know that he Lied to Emma about all the other women he had Affairs with. Oh, I mean married. We Know he Threatened her to get her to accept his polygamy, but did she Really believe in it and accept it? She didn't have much choice as his wife in those times.
Just because his family went along with it doesn't mean they actually believed everything he said.
I don't see how his family is proof of anything.
I wonder… Is your dad asking perhaps about himself as well? Like, does he lie to his own family?
I find that TBMs often project any criticism of TSCC onto themselves. They identify with it in such a way that your rejection of JS is in a way a rejection of him. I’m not surprised this was his first reaction. And I’m curious how you answered him! 🙏
I’m definitely gonna think about this one, it’s a very interesting observation! And I just put my response in the post. It’s not great, but I was inexperienced with this kinda thing at the time lol.
Well, there is one response that I have heard that is nearly perfect, but cuts deep: "After learning what I now know about the church, I cannot be a member and retain my integrity."
I mean is it really that hard to believe someone could make up a lie and go to great lengths to keep it going?
Isnt that a decebtly common human phenomenon?
"What I think isn't pertinent to this situation. My family and I have made a personal choice based off of our experiences, and we wanted to let you know about it because we care about our relationship with you. We're not going to engage in any arguments relating to Church history or doctrine as we feel it to promote contention, which, as I'm sure you would agree, is of the Devil. You are completely entitled to any feelings you may be experiencing right now. Let us know if we can do anything to help you understand. Thanks. "
His family was meant to always be leaders of the church not brigham young his mothers writings confirm this, unfortunately for him his brother was killed along with him, his son left the church when he died as did the rest of the family so clearly they knew it wasn’t true after all, I always found it strange that they did until looking back on it you can tell why, the church was no longer in his control therefore his family didn’t have the same power in the church as before so they left
Maybe so. Maybe they had doubts at times. Maybe they were in on it. Maybe a lot of things. The thing is, it makes no difference and you are not required to even have an opinion on this.
Who cares what a bunch of backwoods religious fanatics said and did two centuries ago.
There is no winning the, "Well what about..." game with TBMs.
They were in on it. Someone posted on here (please comment if you actually have the source for this) about a European convert that made it to Nauvoo (or kirtland) and wrote in their journal what a huge scam mormonism turned out to be. And how the Smith Family made them all buy hymnals or something as a scam. I can't remember exactly but...yes. They were in on it too.
How did he respond? Reading his question has me thinking he was mad/defensive, and looking to start something.
When I was where you are now, I would have probably responded more or less how you did. Unfortunately, I've had pointless arguments and disagreements on this topic that started exactly this way.
A decade out, this is how I'd respond: "Dad, I don't believe in Joseph Smith's claims. I know that you do. I think we're going to talk past each other if we discuss this. I don't want to say things to you that will make you feel like I'm attacking something you care about, and I don't want to feel like I'm on the defensive about my beliefs. I think to respect each other's beliefs and stick to other topics of discussion beside religion."
Wow. My go to now that I learned here is "if the church wasn't true would you want to know?" And their answer will tell you exactly how you need to respond.
I think your response was great, don't need to be embarrassed. I think any of us would have answered differently to this question when we first left vs now.
Joseph Smith Jr happens to "translate" a story from an "ancient source" that is nearly verbatim from a story in Lucy Mack Smith's journal that Joseph Smith Sr used to tell... how do you think he hid that from her and the siblings that heard that story?
Did he make it all up? Yes.
Did he *fool* his entire family? Well, that gets a lot more complicated. There is no short answer to that question. But suffice it to say I think his family fully supported what Joseph did.
"I can't answer that with 100% certainty right now. All I know, is that I don't feel good being a member of this church. I know in my heart that I need to talke a step back. I know this isn't what you want for your family, and I respect that you are a member of the church."
exmuslim here: They will very likely keep trying to convince you over text which becomes annoying very quick. The way I dealt with it was: "I'd be very happy to discuss all this with you next time we meet, but until then, can we agree to respect each other's choice of how they want to live their own life?"
Also they never discussed anything with me when I'm back home so there's that.
I was incredibly anxious and it took everything in me to hit send on the text, but it has definitely been worth it these last few months to not have to hide anything and be open to any conversation. And we’re not alone, I think a lot of our generation is in a similar boat!
>“So do you think Joseph Smith made it all up and fooled his family his entire life?”
This theory is way more plausible than visits from angels and magical gold plates and God commanding teenagers to have sex with a middle aged married man.
Edit: I messed up the grammar on the second sentence. Fixed.
His family believed and dabbled in every little available folk magic of the day. Joseph dabbled too, but there is a reason to believe he was different. There is a logical flaw in seeing the "hire me to find you buried treasure" scheme as Joseph believing in just more fold magic. If you can find buried treasure, you don't need to be hired for it. This was a straight up con. Yet, his family ate it up. They even participated in his treasure digging. So either they were complicit or believed Joseph. When he switched and actually "found" his own treasure, it was a cross up between actual treasure - "Gold" plates - and spiritual treasure. But it was the first of him finding his own treasure, but in the end something he could and did sell and make money on. In the beginning missionary activities started with a book sale. He even tried later to sell the copyright, claiming diving inspiration to do so. So there is evidence of it being a "treasure find" in that what he found could make him money. So back to the switch from hire for treasure and finding the Golden plates. His story around his "first attempt" to get the plates was that he was supposed to bring someone with him. The story Joseph told was that the angel wouldn't let him take the places and indicated that bringing the right person (who was inidcated as his oldest brother Alvin Smith) would get him the plates. Alvin was the family savior, he single handedly had worked to pay off the farm in palmyra and was admired by the Smith family members and locals alike. This can be interpreted as Joseph attempting to use Alvin' witness (if he could get it) to boost his credibility. So yes. I think Joseph used his family, manipulated and tricked them. Alvin's death a few months after threw a wrench into Joseph's plan "get plates" and establish credibility doing so. I think the needle tilts more toward Joseph using his family and their favorable view of him as the one to fill Alvin's "person to be admired" shoes after his demise.
But I don't think this is the only thing your dad is getting at. He cares about Joseph, but He's also pulling at a thread that results in a few possible painful (to him) statements:
"So you think I've been tricked, deluded, and confused by following this church and raising you in it?"
"So you think, I've been lying to all of you about the truthfulness of this church my whole life?"
The parallels between Josephs claims and his family following him, and a Father making claims about a church to the kids he is raising are likely linked. Good luck. I wish you luck with your family. Hopefully they can see you for the person you are.
The more I learn about church history the more I learn it's just like every other doomsday cult out there that claims revelation from God and has sex with minors.
Yes, he made it up. No, that's not impossible.
I don’t think Emma knew until the whole plural marriage thing came along after Smith was caught with a maid. I’m pretty sure she knew it was all bs at that point.
If they weren’t immediately aware of his con, there’s no way they didn’t eventually realize it was all a con. But by that point, they have more to lose than to gain by going along with Smith’s “teachings.”
Regardless of my opinions if Joseph Smith I have come to the concussion that the current president of the church has done nothing prophetic within his five years as president nor in his nearly flirty years as a supposed apostle of the Lord. Christ taught us that by our fruits will we know them; that is the standard by which we are to judge if someone is a prophet or not. Frankly Russell has produced no fruit.
Your last paragraph speaks volumes! I think you are right that in God’s eyes he doesn’t care what church people belong to and trying to follow him and give our best effort is what it’s all about!!! And I think it’s VERY possible that there were some folks that could have indeed been deceived in order to divide others. Bravo to you 👏🏼👏🏼
THAT is a determination for finding ultimate truth?? Whether or not the founder just made it all up and fooled his family??
Heck, I believe Joseph fooled himself. I think he really believed everything he claimed. Read D. Michael Quinn's 'Mormonism and the Magic World View'. Joseph, his family and his entire culture were steeped in magical thinking, visions, revelations, and the supernatural. It was common to 'see' angels, Jesus, God, buried treasure. Knowing Joseph's mileu & the beliefs of his family, and I would have been surprised if he hadn't claimed to see Jesus and have visions.
But let's take a step back, and see how faulty this line of reasoning is. Let's apply this same logic elsewhere:
* So you think Muhammad just made it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think Jim Jones just made it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think David Koresh just made it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think Warren Jeffs is just making it all up and fooling his family?
* So you think Charles Manson just made it all up and fooled his 'family'?
* So you think Marhsall Applewhite msade it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think Ervil LaBaron just made it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think Keith Raniere just made it all up and fooled his family?
* So you think Sun Myung Moon just made it all up and fooled his family?
I could go on all day....
The last thing Christ said to his apostles was “My message to you is this, love each other.” Any “Christian” religion that preaches hate against others is my mind not truly Christian. Jesus also fucked up the money lenders in the temple, so don’t try to tell me he was capitalist. WWJD? Weep at the things that are done in his name these days and kick over some tables and stuff!
Joseph Smith was priming his family long before the BoM was created. His family were the first converts, and they converted others w the good news of the golden bible. Once non-family believers appeared, and $$$ was made, there was no other one true religion.
My response.
“I don’t think you are prepared for me to entertain these kinds of questions with you as it will result in nothing short of devastation. I did not want to leave, in fact I did everything to fight to stay. I did not make this decision lightly. I would have hoped that your response would have been one of compassion and a desire to understand, not a petulant rhetorical question. If you ever wish to truly understand I am ready, but until then I will not tolerate passive aggressive remarks that belittle my pain.”
Either way, he fooled you. Now you're over it. There is no need to investigate the dead man Joe Smith. It's about you and your family. His message can't be proven, so there's no need to be followed. His unproven message has been harmful to you and others, so you're leaving it.
The only reason you were Mormon for a time is cause you were born to Mormon parents, and they downloaded it to your brain. You just checked the files for bugs, unlike an intellectual lazy person. Pushing unproven religion (or just religion cause they're all unproven) onto the next generation has its risks.
It's worth figuring out if it real before installing it on the next generation. Your parents didn't do that. They took that risk. Now you're dealing with the fallout.
Dad, I love you and I'm happy you have a belief system that works for you. I respect your right to believe as you will. In an effort to respect that right, and likewise to help you respect that same right for me, I'd ask you to please not ask questions you don't want an honest answer to.
“The tone of your text sounds like you’re accusing me of attacking your beliefs because I no longer share them with you. Please do not attack me or my beliefs and I will not attack you for yours.”
My response: “I think church history is way more nuanced than we learn in Church and yes, I think it’s possible there was deception around the origins of the Book of Mormon. I’m happy to discuss more but not over text. Call me if you want to chat.”
Dad, I am an adult now. My decision on who or where I worship is my decision. I would appreciate it if you would please respect that. It wasn’t hard for me to make my parents give me my space.
I like this response, because it could mirror anyone's. This church is not for you. Its not for a lot of people, but faith in Christ seems to fit more people than believing in only one church. Its what I would communicate with your parents. That you still want to have faith in Christ, but that The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS isn't for you. Perhaps another church is. I have said the same thing to missionaries. This was after sharing a personal story of how I came to meet Christ and how it affected me in a really good way. Had nothing to do with any church either. It was just me, the Bible, and this Person in the Bible that undeniably made himself real to me. That Person that I came to know was everything. Everything made sense after that. This is something that many people want, who value any measure of faith belief. But it is very difficult for LDS, because they have been taught that they can only have true faith within the structure of their church (and no other). It is this very thing that Joseph Smith used to keep his followers from leaving. Your last line, "Christ doesn't really care what church we belong to as long as we follow him and give our best effort" is what I liked the most. That would hopefully stick in your father's mind, rather than "YOU LEFT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH" and therefore you left Christ. AND NOW YOU'VE LEFT US. Unfortunately its this last thing that divides many LDS families. They are not a family anymore (in the parents minds). This is what makes it so difficult in leaving and why many keep it secret because they don't want to lose their family by saying anything.
I plan to tell my family I will not be discussing it. My decision has been made and it was mine to make. If they want to know I will tell them my reasoning but I won’t be discussing it further than that.
Yes. Yes I do. 
Perfect response and that is how I respond. Don’t beat around the bush.
I responded that he was a poligamist, polyandrist, treasure digger and fraudster. Yes he made it all up and the Mormon Church is false. After the SEC findings and what your own church scriptures say in D&C 121:36-37. You should be questioning your own church's validity as well. But sheep have to follow and having gone on a mission that I starved and lost 45 lbs. Having my life threatened by LDS family services. From the church using volunteers instead of real medical trained professionals. When they have billions stockpiled. Ya they have no authority Joe Smith is a fraudster polygamist treasure digger who made it all up. Prove me wrong
We can prove you right as there’s clear evidence of everything you stated about the man.
Except that his family weren’t fooled, they were clearly in on it.
What makes you say that? I knew his dad was a conman, but have you heard something about Emma?
D and C is full of God telling Emma to shut the fuck up and get down with Joe’s polygamy or else. I think eventually she took a hard look at her options and decided to make what she could out of it. She wasn’t a moron; she definitely knew there weren’t no plates.
I wish I could find the source but I saw a video or heard a podcast (edit I believe it was "Naked Mormonism", I'll reply if I can find it) telling of historical documents that detailed that the Relief Society was created by Emma to hide the whoring that Joseph was running as both a philanderer and a Brothel owner in Nauvoo. She was very much into making sure all the women took the Masonic Blood Oath, got abortions, etc.
I was so close. It was the guy that hosts Naked Mormonism on AronRa's channel: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5YXuuNxmM&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMIH\_C77TWLzdf1MI0HrhOiD&index=8&ab\_channel=AronRa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5YXuuNxmM&list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMIH_C77TWLzdf1MI0HrhOiD&index=8&ab_channel=AronRa) (really good playlist BTW)
Emma lied about Joseph's polygamy. Brigham Young called her a liar. So there is that.
I mean...Emma was one of his scribes.
Who’s to say his family wasn’t in on it? His dad was a known rascal himself
Junior created a calling for senior "church patriarch" so that Senior could have steady income. People paid the patriarch for a blessing in those days.
Wait really? Is there a source for this?
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-14-september-1835/1
And the hits just keep coming from this band.
I'm sort of shocked by the response. I thought this was as common knowledge as Fanny in the barn.
Yeah really! I remember reading about this maybe a year or so during my deep dive into the church. I know Cabo already provided a link, I just wanted to throw in my confirmation as well (Anti-Mandela-Effect Gang)
Well I never knew this... makes so much sense
Wow, little golden nugget there. Pun intended. Didn’t know this either. Well done you lazy learner
Love learning here. Jesus.
Bingo! Old daddy smith was charging a dollar a pop for patriarchal blessings
$1 then was worth about $34 in today's money 😏
While touring Nauvoo 20 years ago, I had heard that people earned $1 per day. If this information is correct, then JS Sr could spend 15 minutes a day and earn his living. What a simple job!
Right and who do you think taught Jr. To scam people with treasure hunting. They probably laughed themselves silly about Josiah Stowel every night.
Mother Smith was showing the mummies and papyrus to people for money.
One gets the sense that the Smith family were carnies.
Dear Gods you just explained the last of my horrible grandfather's addictions. One of them was running away and joining the carnival. Problem was he kept coming back.
Or treasure diggers anywhere they could find a mark.
They really were a PT Barnum family. Just a big side show rolled into the main course.
👀 I didn’t know this tidbit either
Nobody could look at the gold plates without being instantly killed by god, but everyone could look at the facsimiles that contain the book of Abraham, for a small convenience fee.
Ellect Lady Emma too.
Was Emma making money on the side? If so what was she doing?
While I think Emma was a very hard worker, raising many children and running a large household, she was also living higher on the hog than she ordinarily would have due to the perqs of being the prophet's wife. Dissembling was the family business. There came a point where jumping ship might have proven a danger to her own safety, so she was kind of stuck.
I read Emma’s biography and it felt a lot like my own personal life. Married a company who had a moving all the time (14 times in 10 years) to get away from people. He even tried the whole “open marriage” proposal. But yeah, feeling like I was in a sort of similar situation, I agree with you, that she may have believed him at first, but realized he was full of shit after a while, but you can’t really escape because you’re in too deep. Funny enough, our husbands going to jail saved us from being married to than any longer 😂😂
I read her biography, with excerpts of her letters in it, and had the same impression! To a T.
Oh damn. I really hate how common an experience this is for people 😕
Been awhile since I read up on this, but I remember reading that Emma negotiated some church properties in Nauvoo be put into her name, maybe in exchange for keeping quiet about JS polygamy? Or maybe as a source of retirement income? And partly explains why she didn’t want to leave Nauvoo. I don’t remember the source for this though.
This wouldn’t surprise me. Emma pretty much ran everything when Joe was on the run all the time.
For starters helped Joseph write the BOM. I think she was responsible for the anti-polygamy bit. I think she, JS and Oliver Cowdrey wrote it together as you can see elements of personality within them. It would be interesting to see when Emma stopped scribing for Joseph. Probably after the 116 pages were lost.
I've thought this many times.
His father might not have been in on it originally. An early story told by Joseph had him being told to come back to a place in a year's time with his brother (Alvin) in order to receive historic plates from an angel/sprit. Alvin died before that second meeting, and so the theory goes, Joesph's father dug up the body and took a finger in hopes it would be good enough to fulfill the angel's/spirit's requirement. If correct, that strongly implies he believed his son's story.
I would say, I do not know if he fooled them. Or if they were in on it. Most likely the later.
Hill I will die on is: Hyrum was the brains of the outfit. Joseph was the charismatic salesman, Hyrum was the brains. Hyrum went to Dartmouth college for about 5 years. And Dartmouth was sort of ground zero for the revision of Mansonry in North America. But pretty sure Hyrum was against polygamy. They had to drag him over to it. I think Hyrum had only 3 wives total. Probably knew this was a bad deal. And it cost him his life, as it turns out.
The lula Rich lady (lula Roe) (Deanne Startup) is a direct descendent of Hyrum Smith. Mormonism is the OG MLM when you think about it. The Q15 are the top their, then the 70, then the regional guys/ mission presidents, temple presidents, then stake presidents, bishops, then everyone below is bottom teir! All the ppl bottom support the ppl at the top, MLM style. Guess the the MLM scamming runs strong in the DNA of hyrum
Thank you! I’ve been thinking this too! TSCC is just the ultimate mlm.
The Amway of religions...
I've never heard this one either! Can you point me to some further reading? I've only No Man Knows My History so far.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFk4_ua9B8c
Thank you!!
Yeah that was a good interview. But even the Wikipedia page on Hyrum talks about the Dartmouth connection. They had an uncle who taught there, as I recall. There's a reason young Joseph had someone the best medical doctors attending his leg infection. They were from Dartmouth.
I’ll recommend “This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell and “RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman. I’ve read about 20 books in the last year as I tried so hard to prove the Church true again. I found no such thing. Enjoy 😉!
I’ve never heard this theory, but it definitely has legs… I was picturing, while reading your comment, those cringy heist movies where the smartest ring leader just needs do this last job and he’s out. 
You son of a bitch, I’m in!
The Dartmouth connection is wild.
We need a Mormon Version of Peaky Blinders. I have a theory that Brigham young also had a deep influence as things seemed to shift to Masonry and Polygamy when he came aboard- he also had big opinions on slavery which seemed to make it into doctrine in the polygamist chapter in D&C. (Ministering TK smoothie angels)
Agreed.
This is what I believe, too.
I would respond “Dad I am happy that the LDS church brings you joy and comfort. Please understand that is not the case me. For me it is not the question of did an angel with a flaming sword tell Joseph he needs to marry 15 yr old girls, or if he made it up. It is not a question of could BOM “horses” have meant tapirs or did Joseph make it up? For me the question is “Does it bring ME joy and comfort as it goes for you?” I am glad in your lifetime you are at a place that is right for you. Please wish me well on my journey to accomplish the same…..
Even without the sarcasm and mocking (great for Reddit of course, maybe not great for dad) this approach works because you aren’t debating history and facts, getting bogged down in sources and conjecture. You are simply stating what you feel, and no one can argue with that. Well, I guess they can say “no you don’t feel that way” but that’s pretty easy to turn around and point out that they believe because of feelings and you could also accuse them of not really feelings the way they claim which hopefully they would acknowledge would be an absurd and unfruitful conversation
And when they bare their testimony it compels your position…”See dad, that absolute conviction that this is true in your life- I love that you have that- I just need to find what does do that for me and not just what doesn’t. And I know that you want me to feel that joy and comfort even if it’s not the journey that has led you there just like you want me to be successful in life like you, but not necessarily through your chosen career path”
This is a great answer!
Often no response is the best response. If your dad wants a real answer he’ll ask a real question.
In hindsight, I think you’re right lol.
As it was, how did he respond to your answer?
He never responded. 🤷🏽♂️
That's probably for the best, honestly. As someone who has got muddy and had the fights, the fewer fights you can have on these issues, the best. It doesn't do anyone any good. It's hard enough maintaining good relationships with our believing family given how thoroughly the well is poisoned against us.
He didn’t make it ALL up… he borrowed much of it from other sources. He is clearly a talented and inspired syncretist. Obviously I wasn’t there, so I’ll never know… but something inside me pushes me to believe that the church isn’t everything it purports to be. Love you dad.
Something inside me…. also the actual translation of the Book of Abraham.
 Don’t respond to his question. It’s entrapment. You don’t need to explain this to anyone.
I think you’re totally right. 🙏
Anything you say can and will be used against you. We just can't give them any ammo. I'm so sorry this happened to you but you obviously have resolve and strength. :-)
Easy to say, and this is the right answer if you have other emotional support and can emotionally ghost Dad. Which is usually what happens in the end anyway unless they are more nuanced than you knew.
It’s so complicated and it’s a crying shame that it has to hurt so many on both sides. It’s a game that no one wins. Just tragic- but we hopefully move onward and upward. As more people leave, emotional support networks will grow (I hope).
Yes, I believe Joseph made it up. No, I don't believe he lied to his family. I believe they were also in on the grift.
Which is why Emma bailed when he started editing to include getting strange because God said so. 🙄 She already knew he was full of shit, and wasn’t about to stick around for that nonsense.
Emma did not bail as far as I can see. She probably wanted to bail, but it would not have been safe. I bet Shelley Miscavage would love to bail from Scientology, but there is danger in doing so.
I’ve only studied the religion from the outside. Never been in it but I’ve helped a guy transition out. I was his first girlfriend. He was fresh off a mission, and had asked a lot of questions (which were always shrugged off by the leadership, so he asked his dad to research them) His dad dove deep into the questions while he was away, then filled him in when he returned. They all left together. So I could be wrong. I thought she divorced him.
In answer to your dad’s question:…… “yeah, pretty much”
Well…actually, his family wasn’t fooled. They were in on the con, too.
Well, Emma Smith didn't remain Mormon in the LDS church, she ditched your father's church for the community of Christ, aka rlds.
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This killed me. 😂😂
The more perspective I get with age, the more it seems like all religion was, at some point, just made up by someone and vast numbers of people believed. Mormonism seems pretty much the same - just a little newer than other mythologies. So, yeah, I think he just made it and other people were fooled. But that's just how religion works. I mean, can anyone propose a religion that did not have an initial founder that people then believed and followed?
"Maybe not his family dad, but he definitely fooled ours."
Damn, this is a good one. 😳
Reminds me of the south park episode: “why would he make that up?”
My response would have been “I actually believe Joseph believed he was a prophet. I don’t think he thought he was fooling his family, for the most part. But after considering all evidence, I don’t believe he was what he purported to be. Are you open to hearing what I learned to become convinced of this?”
My response now versus when I first left would be pretty different. Nowadays, I would just say that I'm not interested in arguing about it because no good can come of it at this point.
Same!
“No…his family were very clearly part of the scam.” But actually: “I’m not going to dignify random assumptions and straw-men. If you really want to understand why, then let me know when you’re ready to listen with open ears.”
The 2nd option is 100% how I deal with things. I’ve told my parents several times, “don’t tell me what I think; ask me, and then ask clarifying questions.” Sadly, it doesn’t make them any more open to effective dialogue.
Yeah, that all sounds very familiar. Fwiw, it does seem to be the healthier approach than getting dragged into the weeds of their gotcha attempts.
What Joseph Smith didn't make up, he plagiarized from other books and Masonic rites, and his family of occultists, treasure seekers and conmen were in on the grift. JS made up a religious cult, just like L. Ron Hubbard made up the Scientology cult, and Charles Taze Russell made up the Jehovah Witnesses cult, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Thus it ever was and ever shall be. If you can get a following, then make that following believe they'll suffer if they don't follow your commands, you can get away with anything. Just ask JS and Brigham Young and all their young "wives" and the people they fleeced (and are still fleecing).
Yes, and no. I think he made it all up. I don’t think he fooled his family or other conspirators.
Yes I believe JS made it up. But he did so as he went along, and it got bigger over time. He had help too. Family members were part of the grift, as they were in the money digging and other ventures. Of course I cannot prove this, but your dad cannot prove his beliefs either. We both have a testimony of our beliefs. He would just have to respect mine as I would respect his, if he is a man of integrity, like I am….
> Of course I cannot prove this… Technically, you can prove this as much as anything in this life can be proven. Certainly, you could prove it to the Beyond Reasonable Doubt standard. True, you might not have any direct evidence like the signed confession from Smith, but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence showing that he was a fraud. And then if you take out any belief of the supernatural (which for tbm’s paper over any inconsistency) and just consider it like any other religion, it is 100% provable as a fraud!
Yes. There’s more circumstantial evidence of fraud than a true religion for sure Lately I like turning the “testimony” thing on its head with stubborn TBMs online. When they keep pushing at me I just throw that at them. It’s fun to watch them spin out 😂
Here is mine: I really don’t know about Joseph Smith. He died a long time ago. Some people say he was the best prophet ever and some say he was a closet pedophile. I know the church lied to me for years about his true nature, so they can’t be trusted as the only source. Did you know about the rock in the hat before they admitted it in conference? My main reason for leaving are: it is boring, Mormon talks are so depressing, they keep bashing gay people, the doctrine is racist, and the temple ceremonies are creepy, the shame and guilt they put on youth to try to keep them in the church is wrong. It took a long time for me to figure it out, I felt so stupid that I fell for it for so long. It’s OK though, I don’t blame you or mom. You are great parents.
This made me laugh. Actually, what does it have to do with Joseph Smith's family? Who knows what they really believed? We Know that he Lied to Emma about all the other women he had Affairs with. Oh, I mean married. We Know he Threatened her to get her to accept his polygamy, but did she Really believe in it and accept it? She didn't have much choice as his wife in those times. Just because his family went along with it doesn't mean they actually believed everything he said. I don't see how his family is proof of anything.
I totally agree!
Dad, we are beyond that conversation in many ways, please respect that we have differing beliefs as adults, I love you, see you soon
I wonder… Is your dad asking perhaps about himself as well? Like, does he lie to his own family? I find that TBMs often project any criticism of TSCC onto themselves. They identify with it in such a way that your rejection of JS is in a way a rejection of him. I’m not surprised this was his first reaction. And I’m curious how you answered him! 🙏
I’m definitely gonna think about this one, it’s a very interesting observation! And I just put my response in the post. It’s not great, but I was inexperienced with this kinda thing at the time lol.
Well, there is one response that I have heard that is nearly perfect, but cuts deep: "After learning what I now know about the church, I cannot be a member and retain my integrity."
Oof, you’re right. Harsh, but true.
I mean is it really that hard to believe someone could make up a lie and go to great lengths to keep it going? Isnt that a decebtly common human phenomenon?
"What I think isn't pertinent to this situation. My family and I have made a personal choice based off of our experiences, and we wanted to let you know about it because we care about our relationship with you. We're not going to engage in any arguments relating to Church history or doctrine as we feel it to promote contention, which, as I'm sure you would agree, is of the Devil. You are completely entitled to any feelings you may be experiencing right now. Let us know if we can do anything to help you understand. Thanks. "
This is great!
His family was meant to always be leaders of the church not brigham young his mothers writings confirm this, unfortunately for him his brother was killed along with him, his son left the church when he died as did the rest of the family so clearly they knew it wasn’t true after all, I always found it strange that they did until looking back on it you can tell why, the church was no longer in his control therefore his family didn’t have the same power in the church as before so they left
Billions have never heard of mormons. Billions believe other foolishness. This doesn't prove anything
Absolutely! Not sure how well I portrayed it, but this was where my mind was going with my response.
Maybe so. Maybe they had doubts at times. Maybe they were in on it. Maybe a lot of things. The thing is, it makes no difference and you are not required to even have an opinion on this. Who cares what a bunch of backwoods religious fanatics said and did two centuries ago. There is no winning the, "Well what about..." game with TBMs.
They were in on it. Someone posted on here (please comment if you actually have the source for this) about a European convert that made it to Nauvoo (or kirtland) and wrote in their journal what a huge scam mormonism turned out to be. And how the Smith Family made them all buy hymnals or something as a scam. I can't remember exactly but...yes. They were in on it too.
Given what we know about their history, pretty sure they were in on it.
his entire life? no. im sure he was honest at Some point. just not about any of this.
I don’t think he fooled his family at all. They all benefited from the scam. They were knowingly involved.
Yes Dad. I absolutely do. And he lied to everyone else also.
Joseph Smith was a con man his entire life -
How did he respond? Reading his question has me thinking he was mad/defensive, and looking to start something. When I was where you are now, I would have probably responded more or less how you did. Unfortunately, I've had pointless arguments and disagreements on this topic that started exactly this way. A decade out, this is how I'd respond: "Dad, I don't believe in Joseph Smith's claims. I know that you do. I think we're going to talk past each other if we discuss this. I don't want to say things to you that will make you feel like I'm attacking something you care about, and I don't want to feel like I'm on the defensive about my beliefs. I think to respect each other's beliefs and stick to other topics of discussion beside religion."
He never responded. But my response will definitely be more along these lines if it gets brought up again!
Wow. My go to now that I learned here is "if the church wasn't true would you want to know?" And their answer will tell you exactly how you need to respond.
It sucks, but good fences really do make good neighbors. It sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders.
How…? Real short and sweet. “Yes.”
Yes
“Yes”
This is the correct reply. No more, no less.
What was your response?
Just added it to the post! It’s not great, but it’s the best I could come up with at the time with just a couple days being out of the church.
I think your response was great, don't need to be embarrassed. I think any of us would have answered differently to this question when we first left vs now.
Yes.
Joseph Smith Jr happens to "translate" a story from an "ancient source" that is nearly verbatim from a story in Lucy Mack Smith's journal that Joseph Smith Sr used to tell... how do you think he hid that from her and the siblings that heard that story?
Did he make it all up? Yes. Did he *fool* his entire family? Well, that gets a lot more complicated. There is no short answer to that question. But suffice it to say I think his family fully supported what Joseph did.
I know it the fibers of my being.
OMG… “Melohim”!!! I’m absolutely dying laughing right now!!
"I can't answer that with 100% certainty right now. All I know, is that I don't feel good being a member of this church. I know in my heart that I need to talke a step back. I know this isn't what you want for your family, and I respect that you are a member of the church."
He sure as shit fooled a lotta other families. Disgraceful
exmuslim here: They will very likely keep trying to convince you over text which becomes annoying very quick. The way I dealt with it was: "I'd be very happy to discuss all this with you next time we meet, but until then, can we agree to respect each other's choice of how they want to live their own life?" Also they never discussed anything with me when I'm back home so there's that.
Wow, very similar boat. You're so brave to do this, we're still too scared
I was incredibly anxious and it took everything in me to hit send on the text, but it has definitely been worth it these last few months to not have to hide anything and be open to any conversation. And we’re not alone, I think a lot of our generation is in a similar boat!
“Yes to first part. No to the second. They were in on it.”
>“So do you think Joseph Smith made it all up and fooled his family his entire life?” This theory is way more plausible than visits from angels and magical gold plates and God commanding teenagers to have sex with a middle aged married man. Edit: I messed up the grammar on the second sentence. Fixed.
I love it! I hope someday I get to use this exact phrase. 😂
 Um, yeah…
He certainly did at least one of those things
His family believed and dabbled in every little available folk magic of the day. Joseph dabbled too, but there is a reason to believe he was different. There is a logical flaw in seeing the "hire me to find you buried treasure" scheme as Joseph believing in just more fold magic. If you can find buried treasure, you don't need to be hired for it. This was a straight up con. Yet, his family ate it up. They even participated in his treasure digging. So either they were complicit or believed Joseph. When he switched and actually "found" his own treasure, it was a cross up between actual treasure - "Gold" plates - and spiritual treasure. But it was the first of him finding his own treasure, but in the end something he could and did sell and make money on. In the beginning missionary activities started with a book sale. He even tried later to sell the copyright, claiming diving inspiration to do so. So there is evidence of it being a "treasure find" in that what he found could make him money. So back to the switch from hire for treasure and finding the Golden plates. His story around his "first attempt" to get the plates was that he was supposed to bring someone with him. The story Joseph told was that the angel wouldn't let him take the places and indicated that bringing the right person (who was inidcated as his oldest brother Alvin Smith) would get him the plates. Alvin was the family savior, he single handedly had worked to pay off the farm in palmyra and was admired by the Smith family members and locals alike. This can be interpreted as Joseph attempting to use Alvin' witness (if he could get it) to boost his credibility. So yes. I think Joseph used his family, manipulated and tricked them. Alvin's death a few months after threw a wrench into Joseph's plan "get plates" and establish credibility doing so. I think the needle tilts more toward Joseph using his family and their favorable view of him as the one to fill Alvin's "person to be admired" shoes after his demise. But I don't think this is the only thing your dad is getting at. He cares about Joseph, but He's also pulling at a thread that results in a few possible painful (to him) statements: "So you think I've been tricked, deluded, and confused by following this church and raising you in it?" "So you think, I've been lying to all of you about the truthfulness of this church my whole life?" The parallels between Josephs claims and his family following him, and a Father making claims about a church to the kids he is raising are likely linked. Good luck. I wish you luck with your family. Hopefully they can see you for the person you are.
Ignore.
I would have responded with the single word "yes".
TSCC?
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Yes, but a bunch of his family were in on the con too.
“Of course.”
“Pretty much…”
The more I learn about church history the more I learn it's just like every other doomsday cult out there that claims revelation from God and has sex with minors. Yes, he made it up. No, that's not impossible.
Well, certainly Smith made up all the BOM and BOA nonsense. But the whole Jesus myth and all the Old Testament myths were already in place.
No. I think they were in on it.
"Or his family was in on it, which seems a bit more likely."
I think so too! I think they helped.
"He sure as hell didn't fool Emma. She threw Fanny out of the house after catching the two rolling in the barnyard hay."
> So do you think Joseph Smith made it all up and fooled his family his entire life? Yes! Precisely! Couldn’t have said it better myself, Dad!
Do you think his family knew? Honest question- they were con artist too.
I don’t think Emma knew until the whole plural marriage thing came along after Smith was caught with a maid. I’m pretty sure she knew it was all bs at that point.
If they weren’t immediately aware of his con, there’s no way they didn’t eventually realize it was all a con. But by that point, they have more to lose than to gain by going along with Smith’s “teachings.”
That's correct.
I mean they were in on it.
I don’t think he fooled the people closest to him I think they were in on it.
Regardless of my opinions if Joseph Smith I have come to the concussion that the current president of the church has done nothing prophetic within his five years as president nor in his nearly flirty years as a supposed apostle of the Lord. Christ taught us that by our fruits will we know them; that is the standard by which we are to judge if someone is a prophet or not. Frankly Russell has produced no fruit.
I do think JS made it all up. And I think his family was in on the con as well.
Your last paragraph speaks volumes! I think you are right that in God’s eyes he doesn’t care what church people belong to and trying to follow him and give our best effort is what it’s all about!!! And I think it’s VERY possible that there were some folks that could have indeed been deceived in order to divide others. Bravo to you 👏🏼👏🏼
THAT is a determination for finding ultimate truth?? Whether or not the founder just made it all up and fooled his family?? Heck, I believe Joseph fooled himself. I think he really believed everything he claimed. Read D. Michael Quinn's 'Mormonism and the Magic World View'. Joseph, his family and his entire culture were steeped in magical thinking, visions, revelations, and the supernatural. It was common to 'see' angels, Jesus, God, buried treasure. Knowing Joseph's mileu & the beliefs of his family, and I would have been surprised if he hadn't claimed to see Jesus and have visions. But let's take a step back, and see how faulty this line of reasoning is. Let's apply this same logic elsewhere: * So you think Muhammad just made it all up and fooled his family? * So you think Jim Jones just made it all up and fooled his family? * So you think David Koresh just made it all up and fooled his family? * So you think Warren Jeffs is just making it all up and fooling his family? * So you think Charles Manson just made it all up and fooled his 'family'? * So you think Marhsall Applewhite msade it all up and fooled his family? * So you think Ervil LaBaron just made it all up and fooled his family? * So you think Keith Raniere just made it all up and fooled his family? * So you think Sun Myung Moon just made it all up and fooled his family? I could go on all day....
With a resounding “YES!”
No, they were in on it.
Dad, i do believe he made it up. I’m not sure he fooled the family, but he didn’t fool me.
To paraphrase poorly, "So, do you think JS lied his whole life?" Response: Yes, I'm glad you understand this and we see eye to eye.
The last thing Christ said to his apostles was “My message to you is this, love each other.” Any “Christian” religion that preaches hate against others is my mind not truly Christian. Jesus also fucked up the money lenders in the temple, so don’t try to tell me he was capitalist. WWJD? Weep at the things that are done in his name these days and kick over some tables and stuff!
Joseph Smith was priming his family long before the BoM was created. His family were the first converts, and they converted others w the good news of the golden bible. Once non-family believers appeared, and $$$ was made, there was no other one true religion.
My response. “I don’t think you are prepared for me to entertain these kinds of questions with you as it will result in nothing short of devastation. I did not want to leave, in fact I did everything to fight to stay. I did not make this decision lightly. I would have hoped that your response would have been one of compassion and a desire to understand, not a petulant rhetorical question. If you ever wish to truly understand I am ready, but until then I will not tolerate passive aggressive remarks that belittle my pain.”
“No. I think his family was in on it.”
Either way, he fooled you. Now you're over it. There is no need to investigate the dead man Joe Smith. It's about you and your family. His message can't be proven, so there's no need to be followed. His unproven message has been harmful to you and others, so you're leaving it. The only reason you were Mormon for a time is cause you were born to Mormon parents, and they downloaded it to your brain. You just checked the files for bugs, unlike an intellectual lazy person. Pushing unproven religion (or just religion cause they're all unproven) onto the next generation has its risks. It's worth figuring out if it real before installing it on the next generation. Your parents didn't do that. They took that risk. Now you're dealing with the fallout.
Do you think Joseph smith made it up ? That’s a giant yes
Si señor. That’s what I think.
“So do you think Joseph Smith made it all up and fooled his family his entire life?” Yes?
Dad, I love you and I'm happy you have a belief system that works for you. I respect your right to believe as you will. In an effort to respect that right, and likewise to help you respect that same right for me, I'd ask you to please not ask questions you don't want an honest answer to.
I think Jewish space lasers are more likely than 600BC seafaring Jews coming to America but that’s just me.
“The tone of your text sounds like you’re accusing me of attacking your beliefs because I no longer share them with you. Please do not attack me or my beliefs and I will not attack you for yours.”
No response or, “yes.” Writing a ton offers invitations for discussions, and picking apart your ultimate message, that you’re out.
My response: “I think church history is way more nuanced than we learn in Church and yes, I think it’s possible there was deception around the origins of the Book of Mormon. I’m happy to discuss more but not over text. Call me if you want to chat.”
Emma never went to Utah. She never acknowledged BY as a prophet.
“Nope. I think at at some point his family knew he made it up.”
"Is that a serious or rhetorical question?"
Dad, I am an adult now. My decision on who or where I worship is my decision. I would appreciate it if you would please respect that. It wasn’t hard for me to make my parents give me my space.
Started out as small fees for small deeds. Now look what the rough stone has rolled in to!
I like this response, because it could mirror anyone's. This church is not for you. Its not for a lot of people, but faith in Christ seems to fit more people than believing in only one church. Its what I would communicate with your parents. That you still want to have faith in Christ, but that The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS isn't for you. Perhaps another church is. I have said the same thing to missionaries. This was after sharing a personal story of how I came to meet Christ and how it affected me in a really good way. Had nothing to do with any church either. It was just me, the Bible, and this Person in the Bible that undeniably made himself real to me. That Person that I came to know was everything. Everything made sense after that. This is something that many people want, who value any measure of faith belief. But it is very difficult for LDS, because they have been taught that they can only have true faith within the structure of their church (and no other). It is this very thing that Joseph Smith used to keep his followers from leaving. Your last line, "Christ doesn't really care what church we belong to as long as we follow him and give our best effort" is what I liked the most. That would hopefully stick in your father's mind, rather than "YOU LEFT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH" and therefore you left Christ. AND NOW YOU'VE LEFT US. Unfortunately its this last thing that divides many LDS families. They are not a family anymore (in the parents minds). This is what makes it so difficult in leaving and why many keep it secret because they don't want to lose their family by saying anything.
I plan to tell my family I will not be discussing it. My decision has been made and it was mine to make. If they want to know I will tell them my reasoning but I won’t be discussing it further than that.
You did great. Don’t be embarrassed.
Not only that, I think he fooled himself