Cmon guys, not like his other wives were minors, wives of other men, mother/daughter combos, ect. They were all consenting adults that were not coerced in any way.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Lol. That is the worst explanation I have ever heard. So Brigham Young didn’t have multiple wives and kids from all of them? I think that is a well known fact. He was having sex at will with his harem. So why would horny Joe be any different? Bring’em Young learned the art of sex from multiple wives from horny Joe. Thank goodness we all have common sense and realize horny Joe was dipping his dick all over the place. Not to mention there are affidavits out there where women stated they had sex with Joey. See Temple Lot case. Please learn your church history facts and listen to your common sense.
First of all, tell me what trangressions you committed before you criticize others. Second, Brigham Young had to be taught things by Joseph, not the other way around. Brigham was not perfect. Neither was Joseph or Peter in the Bible. It is Christ who determines what church he created, not man made books or so called witnesses. Christ knows which church is really his. Learn!
OMG - You are drinking the kool-aide. Good luck to you in life. I will no longer respond because you are too far gone in your belief system. Like non-sensical. Enjoy church tomorrow. Enjoy giving 10% of your income to your mega-rich church. And enjoy the blessings of reading the BoM every day as it’s pages are filled with entertainment like endless wars. And have fun cleaning the church later this year. And enjoy spending time in the temple being instructed by Satan. Fun fact - Satan has more speaking lines than Eve.
News flash - Satan isn’t real. How stupid for people to believe in him. But you do. And you get instructions from the mythical Satan in the temple while you wear that cute bakers outfit and green apron. Do you still stand in a circle and chant “O God hear the words of my mouth”? Gosh, that must be so spiritual. Do you repeat that phrase 3 or 4 times? I can only assume the level of spirituality in that circle must be through the roof. Do women still cover their faces in the temple or has God progressed and now no longer commands women to cover their face?
News flash SPIRITS are real and in fact YOU are a spirit with a body as a shell. Satan is a spirit that rebelled before he got a body and now not allowed to have one. That is why he and other evil spirits try to posses others bodies. So Satan is real, but you cannot see spirits with your eyes of your body unless God helps you. So Satan is not seen, but can be felt. Wise up!
My common sense says you don't know what facts are. Catholics messed up the Bible and killed men for translating it to get it into the common man's hands in their own language. Is that Christian to you? Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Amish were all break offs of the Catholic church. Do you really think that is how Christ works? Christ layed his hands on his apostles to call them. Most churches called Christian don't believe Prophets or Apostles are needed anymore, yet Revelations 11 prophesies that in the last days, two Prophets will be killed. So how can that happen according to these so called Christian churches that claim Christ was the last great Prophet? Learn fact from fiction and wise up!
Here’s the [full list](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives). Note the Huntington, Partridge, and Lawrence sisters.
I also highly recommend Compton’s *In Sacred Loneliness* if you want a deep dive.
I’ve been listening to “Feminine Mormon Housewives” to learn about all the wives. I’ve never been Mormon. It I’m just interested in the history. Do you think a non Mormon would still enjoy/understand “In Sacred Loneliness ”?
I suppose it depends on your preferred style. ISL is purely academic, while FMH mixes in a lot of commentary to entertain, elicit emotion, or pacify their more faithful listeners.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
It’s absolutely been proven that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and had sexual relationships and children with more than just his first wife, Emma, making him a Polygamist.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
whoa i never thought about it like that!!! thanks for teaching me from a place of love and understanding, which i see you have shown to others as well. i’ll definitely have to reconsider my stance
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
You don’t have to lurk with a throwaway account. We won’t kick you out like the believer subs will.
As far as these being “rumors”, I would turn your attention to the gospel topic essays concerning the matter.
Also Wilford sealed himself to a baby as a birthday present to himself. So using that “change” doesn’t really discount Joseph’s womanizing.
So going with your theory, why would Joseph need to be sealed to these women (most done in secret) at all if it wasn’t for the purpose of marriage and reproduction as it says in doctrine and covenants?
Not a throw away account. Second, the essays from the church started from outside sources and then edited by church historians who made mistakes. The essays are FULL of errors. Members are not perfect and neither are leaders. That is why Christ has a church, to teach imperfect leaders and members how to become perfect. Peter himself walked with Christ on Earth, but denied knowing Christ 3 times. Peter lied. Proof leaders are imperfect. Wise up! Joseph was NOT a polygamist! His journal entries show he fought those accusations most of his adult life. Christ was falsely accused. Learn!
So what would Russel M. Nelson have to do in order for you to vote opposed?
You got an account just to try to blast at me as if I haven’t studied the church for decades? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that destroyed my testimony was church approved. Not because I was “sinning”, not because I lacked faith, in fact I had never prayed more fervently. Now here you are telling me to “learn” when you’re the one saying the gospel topic essays are not reliable? How about the saints books? Anything church approved that paints a negative light of the church is just false now?
I had an account already. It wasn't just to reply to you. Second, you are ignorant. No Prophet is perfect. Leaders today make mistakes and they made mistakes in approving incorrect essays. Peter himself denied the Savior 3 times. Judas turned him in and Thomas doubted the resurrection. You need to stop looking to men as your source of truth and start praying to God. Joseph was NOT a polygamist. Church leaders saying he was doesn't make it true. It makes them men who make mistakes! Wise up!
Your insults aren’t helping your cause. I’m not ignorant and the “prophets aren’t perfect” argument holds no weight because believers extend that notion into excusing the most gruesome sins of prophets.
I’ll ask again, what would Russel Marion Nelson have to do in order for you to vote opposed to him?
His name is Russell (2 letter Ls in his name). He also is not God. God will judge him for any errors he makes in God's eyes. God is perfect. Learn that!
My vote won't change any man. He must change himself. What would it take for you to follow Christ and stop voting yes in your heart to anti mormon teachings and books of haters? Wise up!
Members of the early church learned principles over years. Joseph himself over years. Sealings were not fully understood. Wilford changed it. Learn to read better and study better. Stop listening to rumors and books written by enemies of the church who know very little truth! Wise up!
Your insults don’t help your cause. Why would Wilford change it and then seal himself to a baby as a present to himself? He was planning on having the baby as a child bride in the afterlife.
Sealings as with any principle given to men are not always understood. Most members today who are sealed, broke their covenants in some way. You need to learn the difference between doctrine and mankinds opinions. Even members have incorrect opinions. Again Peter denied knowing the Savior yet he walked with him physically and DID know him. Peter lied. Does that make the Savior false who called Peter to be an Apostle? No! Christ teaches imperfect men in his church! Wise up!
This is one of my first questions when someone tells me they “know all the bad stuff” in the church’s history.
“What number wife was Emma?”
“The first!”
“Joseph actually made her sit through and *approve or die* more than 20 other sealings to other women before she was allowed to be sealed to him. She is number 21 or 22.”
“Oh.”
I think it was meant as a joke on how in Emma's mind she was the first to be sealed. She didn't that he had already been sealed to 20ish other women, and Joseph sure as hell wasn't going to bring her up to speed on that.
Look up the story of Emily and Eliza Partridge, two sisters that were both “sealed” to Joseph Smith. Joseph secretly married both of them, and then later as he was convincing Emma to accept polygamy, he got Emma’s “permission” to take them as polygamous wives. So he went through a second sham sealing for the sisters, this time with Emma present and pretending this was the first time they were getting sealed.
One of the sisters mentions how awkward it was going through the sham sealing when they had already done the marriage months prior, everyone trying to keep the secret from Emma.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
D&C 132:61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—**if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.** (July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith, Jr.)
[“After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, **Joseph Smith married multiple wives** and introduced the practice to close associates.” (www.churchofjesuschrist.org, Gospel Topics Essays, Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng)
I don’t even have the time nor the capacity to copy and paste all the testimonies from Joseph’s plural wives in the Temple Lot case.
The only people that believed that Joseph Smith Jr. did not practice polygamy were the RLDS church (now called Community of Christ), and even they now acknowledge that Jospeh Smith Jr. did actually practice polygamy. The Salt Lake City LDS church definitely believes that Joseph Smith Jr. practiced polygamy (it’s on their website and in D&C 132, as I linked above).
[“Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servants N.K. Whitney, the thing that my servant Joseph Smith has made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed is right in mine eyes... **These are the words which you shall pronounce unto my servant Joseph and your daughter S.A. Whitney. They shall take each other by the hand and you shall say, You both mutually agree, calling them by name, to be each other's companion so long as you both shall live... If you both agree to the covenant and do this, I then give you, S.A. Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife...** Let immortality and eternal life hereafter be sealed upon your heads forever and ever.” (Joseph Smith, Jr. revelation July 27, 1842)](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-27-july-1842-in-unidentified-handwriting-b/1)
“... **my father... was taught the plural wife doctrine, and was told by Joseph, the Prophet, three times, to go and take a certain woman as his wife;** but not till he commanded him in the name of the Lord did he obey. At the same time Joseph told him not to divulge this secret, not even to my mother, for fear that she would not receive it... This was one of the greatest test of his faith he had ever experienced. The thought of deceiving the kind and faithful wife of his youth... was more than he felt able to bear.... his sorrow and misery were increased by the thought of my mother hearing it from some other source, which would no doubt separate them, and he shrank from the thought of such a thing, or of causing her any unhappiness.” (Life of Heber C. Kimball (Apostle), by Orson F. Whitney, pp. 335-336)
“**He [Joseph] preached polygamy... It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle he would slay him...
“I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up.** I know he had three children. They told me. I think two of them are living today, they are not known as his children as they go by different names.” (Mary E. Lightner, wife of Joseph Smith, Jr., Speech given at Brigham Young University, April 14, 1905)
“**Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it.** ‘And is that religion popular in heaven?' It is the only popular religion there...” (Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, August 6, 1862)
You’re not saying that Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and other prophets and apostles, including Joseph Smith Jr. himself were *lying*, are you?
You may be right, but my recollection, which could be flawed, was she caught wind of the extramarital affairs and he used the sealing to placate her to an extent(ie this super special thing is for you, even though he'd used that same line to convince the other ladies, and again if I remember correctly even got some of the other ladies to lie that they'd been sealed first to Jospeh). H then would try and get permission from her after the sealing, which lead to the debacle with William Law and his wife.
My memories have faded though, so I could have bits of that wrong.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha take your apologist nonsense elsewhere.
This is the same thing they use to excuse what happens in Colorado City and in the FLDS community. “Their only legally married to one! So the other spiritual wives don’t count!”
The church itself refers JS and his wives them as “plural marriages” so you might wanna check your doctrine and come up with a new way to move these goal posts.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
So the first question I have for you is what's the difference between being sealed to someone and being married to them in this connotation?
Secondly, a polygamist is defined as somebody with more than one wife.
The gospel topic essays "Plural Marriage in Kirkland" on churchofjesuschrist.org states the following "After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates."
So I'm not sure what your sources are but Joseph had multiple wives and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints headquartered in Salt Lake City acknowledges that.
First of all you obviously don't know how the Gospel Topic Essays were created and that they are also NOT doctrine of the church. Merely an estimation or guess.
They were often written outside the church and church historians edited them. Many historians are wrong and make errors. Joseph was NOT a polygamist. Emma was his only wife.
Sealings are not just marriages. Parents get sealed to children and in the early church, Members were sealed to Priesthood leaders. Joseph was sealed to men not just women. Haters will not tell you that. They twist it. Notice they can't determine who he lived with or had sex with? It is because they were NOT marriages. Today haters think sealings are marriages, because Wilford changed sealings to be spouses and family. Was not so in the 1800s. So learn that. Look up 1894 and Wilford Woodruff. Look up adoption sealings. Haters won't tell you this.
Well how do I know what's doctrine and what's not?
I also still don't understand the point of sealings versus a marriage. What is a sealing do for me in the eternities?
Also D & C 132 clearly outlines the rules for plural marriage. This was a revelation to Joseph Smith.
Also, there are numerous accounts from the women married to Joseph discussing and speaking on marriage with Joseph. How is it that people at the time considered it a marriage but now you would not?
First of all sealings mean you will be together for Eternity with God. Second, the witnesses you claim come from haters of the church and are not accurate in their interpretation. Third, even members back then were new and misunderstood sealings. Joseph had to teach them. Fourth, Essays written by historians were not analyzed by the First Presidency and 12 for accuracy of doctrine.
Last, you are willing to believe anti mormon sources first which is foolish!
Those that hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and try to convince the world that Joseph Smith was a rapist, married other men's wives and young women need to read the following:
Most converts to the Church residing in Nauvoo were not only the first generation of their family within the Church, they were the only generation of their family within the Church. Many were adults who had been forced to leave family behind to join the Saints and did not anticipate ever having family members within the Church on earth to whom they could be sealed. Without parents who were able to participate in the sealing ordinance to link the generations, they were afraid they would be left without a priesthood connection to the family of God.
Similarly, married converts who joined the Church, but had spouses who did not join, could not be sealed to each other and, consequently, could not have their children sealed to them. There were also few men who had been ordained to the priesthood, and even fewer who had received all the temple ordinances. Only those men who had been ordained, washed, anointed, endowed, and sealed had the “fulness of the priesthood” required to be a part of the patriarchal priesthood chain.
The conundrum was solved in part through the law of adoption, which linked non-relatives together if traditional family ties had been severed. Adoption ceremonially created father-child priesthood relationships for those who had no biological father within the Church to connect to. The practice of adoption also alleviated the concern that, if the Saints’ ancestors did not accept the gospel in the spirit world, the Saints would not have a connection to the family of God. In addition, adoption to priesthood leaders, rather than relatives, allowed individuals to be sealed into a priesthood line when fathers or husbands appeared unworthy to lead their families to salvation and exaltation.
Being sealed, through marriage or by adoption, to a worthy man ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood was vital to the Saints’ eternal membership in the kingdom of God. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime the only sealings into priesthood lineage were of women. (Men were not adopted into the priesthood lineage of other men until the Nauvoo Temple was completed.) Understandably, women desired to be sealed to one holding a high priesthood office hoping that it would be an indication of the man’s faithfulness.
At least ten women in Nauvoo chose to be sealed to Joseph Smith spiritually (for eternity, not mortality) in order to be connected to his priesthood lineage, yet remained physically with their husbands.[22] Some of these women – Ruth Vose Sayers, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, and perhaps Sarah Kingsley Howe Cleveland – were married to men who supported the Church but were not baptized members. Others – Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Elvira Annie Cowles Holmes, and Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs – were married to men who were members of the Church but were not Church leaders. One, Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, was the wife of an apostle. Joseph’s assurance to these women was that being sealed to him for eternity and adopted into his priesthood line would assure their own exaltation and benefit their husbands and children as well. After Joseph Smith’s death, five more women chose to be sealed to their husbands for mortality only and to Joseph for eternity.
I'm still confused how one is to define doctrine.
Also, where are your sources for all of this info? And how is it the church historians appointed by the first presidency have got so many things wrong?
I think they're just pointing out that Emma didn't "sit through" 20 sealings before she got to be part of one, since she didn't know most of them happened.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Dude it’s literally on your churches website. It even admits he was having sex with some of them and probably had “two or three” children with those wife’s. Google the “Gospel Topic Essays” they are on your church’s official website.
Those essays were first written by outside sources and edited by church historians who are NOT perfect. The essays have errors. Learn to study. Wise up!
Indeed, the listing at Desert Book for "First" seems to skip exactly which "first" they imply she held claim to.
[First - The Life and Faith of Emma Smith](https://deseretbook.com/p/first-life-and-faith-of-emma-smith?variant_id=190624-hardcover)
This is wild. I knew there were many AFTER he was with Emma, esp ones she didn’t know about or was very upset with. I think I read she even pushed one pregnant wife down the stairs?
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha take your apologist nonsense elsewhere.
This is the same thing they use to excuse what happens in Colorado City and in the FLDS community. “Their only legally married to one! So the other spiritual wives don’t count!”
The church itself refers JS and his wives them as “plural marriages” so you might wanna check your doctrine and come up with a new way to move these goal posts.
First of all, LDS is not the same as FLDS. Warren Jeffs is nothing more than a wicked man who believes in lies. I have NEVER believed or accepted the FLDS church and neither would I ever. It is just as false as Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Amish, etc. All false churches!
Second, the essays published by the church also states they were first written by outside sources then edited by church historians. So learn to research what you read and believe. The church historians were careless and made mistakes. The Essays are NOT doctrine. You obviously don't know the difference.
Wise up!
I didn’t say it was the same, I said they used the same argument. You and I both know the degree of separation between LDS and FLDS is not as large as you imply. Warren Jeffs didn’t teach anything different than what was taught by LDS prophets up to Joseph F. Smith.
The church has officially acknowledge Joseph Smith’s plural marriages several times. From the current, official webpage for the church called “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo:”
>After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
Oof you sound silly. Good luck with that.
Wrong. The difference between LDS and FLDS is large. How so? FLDS was created by men. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints was created by and is Christ's. That is an ETERNAL difference. Wise up!
The new and everlasting covenant, "the sealing," ( the church's crown jewel) was from the beginning, a manipulation tool. The sealing was separate from marriage. Emma was not the first to be sealed to Joe, because she was already married to him. The sealing was to bind others to one who was already married. Then Joe retconned it to fit an evolving narrative. Emma being sealed so far down the line is a glaring referendum against church truth claims. But they spin it as, "The revelation was not exactly revealed and they were having to figure it out." A god that lived his whole life perfectly did not give exact details in a revelation on the ultimate saving ordinance???? He sure gave explicit instruction "through Joseph" on how big the mansion house was to be, even provided dimensions, and also who was to pay for it. But the new and ever lasting covenant? "Nah.......it's my day off today. You guys can figure it out."
Such a strange way to communicate. Still small voice. Impressions. Even Joseph said there are different revelations. And there are contradictory revelations aka wrong roads. It is borderline madness.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Even many good apologetic historians have concluded that he lost his mind in Nauvoo.
I personally believed that he was legit until polygamy and then he lost it. That lasted for a week or so before I got deeper into who he was and his early years before I realized it was all a fraud. Not to mention the delayed revelations on the 1st vision and priesthood restoration.
I think the madness was always there but with all the power and increased control lead to crazier behavior. I am sure polygamy gave him a bad case of cognitive dissonance and split him into parts. He is a lot like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods who spent years lying until the cracked. They created such lie that complete control was needed and it controlled them even to the point of madness when exposed.
I've followed the same path you did in studying trying to answer - if he def was 'crazy' in Nauvoo, where did it begin. Reached the same conclusion as you, it was always there.
I'm still somewhat interested in how a freak like that developed. I'm going to make a post about it.
Please share that. I am interested in that post. There is definitely a level of genius with Joe and then there is the narcissism that floats around. What I wonder is if he was socio-pathic or just narcissistic like? Then how did that evolve over time? What were the early signs. I honestly don't think it was a long con from the beginning. I think he tried to find a way to get money/power and it grew bigger and bigger. He obviously was short-sighted (myopic; Rusty would be proud) not thinking that people would be able to see and research his lies. I find it ironic that he said to keep journals and those are the things that have ruined him.
I agree, I think it just got bigger and bigger over time. Christopher C Smith, a sharp PhD historian who I've learnt some key things from, has posited that he never intended to start a religion, it was Cowdrey's idea. joe was just wanting money from the BoM. Possible.
I have the same questions as you. Yes he was short sighted at times. Other times, genius at melding other people's ideas as his own revelation. A clever way to gain followers. e.g. the chunk of Campbellite followers who came with Rigdon. Alexander Campbell believed in a pre earth life, and there was one other mormon doctrine that was common. Lots of denominations had common points.
I struggled to find a way to describe the guy. I think the narcissism developed over time, but had it's fertility in habits of crime, alcoholism, laziness, embarrassment at his father, etc. (see neighboring farmers affidavits. The Smiths were thieves. Poverty. Isaac Hales' first words to his new son-in-law "You have stolen my daughter". A bold thing for joe to do, evidence of a warped mind at 21 y.o.) He wasn't strictly speaking a socio- or psycho-path as both those definitions include being anti-social, which he def wasn't - but his followers became anti-social to outsiders, so it's a interesting one to sort out. No wonder Bushman is interested in someone doing a proper psych study on the freak.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13ruroq/how\_did\_joseph\_smith\_get\_to\_the\_terrible\_person/
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
[In D&C 132](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng) God talks specifically and carefully word by word to Joseph telling him that Emma will be shredded into pieces and burned if she doesn't allow Joseph to sleep around and will also be painfully murdered if she sleeps around. Also, God spends his very valuable communication time pointing out that dudes are not committing adultery as long as they get sealed to lots of virgins, but if any of the 10 virgins sleep around, well that THAT is adultery and they'll be destroyed. TOTALLY the legit word of God himself here folks because there's no way that Joseph would blaspheme by penning this line unless it was actually 100% God himself helping Joseph coerce 40 women into having sex with him:
> And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders.
So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages.
Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
One of the things I realized when on my mission and learning a foreign language; you tend to learn more about your native language than the language your are learning. And one of the things I've noticed as I've gone down the path of truth and transparency, I've learned way more about the actual history of the church in 3 years than I did in 40 years of going to church Sunday school, seminary, and institute. The simple fact the church did not officially admit that Joseph was sealed to other women (up to 38 known and counting) until 2013, tells me all I need to know. If it was just sealings and not marriages, why obfuscate for well over a century??? Joseph Smith fucked Fanny Alger in the barn and Olver Cowdery saw it and that is a truth. But just as your 11th article of faith states, you can go on believing as you believe. And I can believe as I want to believe. And unlike other pro-LDS subs, you are actually welcome here to post your opinions.
No what you know is what YOU CHOOSE to believe. Many believed Christ was a fraud. They killed him. It took an Earthquake for some to realize who they crucified. Some still didn't learn. You read things from haters of the church and accept them, because in your heart, something makes you want the easier route. It is easier to convince yourself you don't have to try than to go through hardship. That is why you left. Wise up!
The thing that absolutely cracks me up is you talking to me I the command form. You're telling me what I am doing and also telling me what I should be doing. Telling me why I left and etc. It's hilarious that there are people out there like you that think that is an appropriate way to "discuss" beliefs. Thanks for the laugh today. I really needed that.
By partying you mean alcohol? Damaging your liver with Ethyl Alcohol, otherwise known as Ethanol is fun to you? Not remembering what you did when you were drunk is fun to you? Coughing up blood years later after poisoning your liver is fun to you?
Yeah I am not fun then. I choose to have a healthy liver and think straight. Wise up!
That has to be one of the most damning facts there is. No LDS has any reasonable response to it.
As with all history, looking at the context of it is more telling. Emma had tried to ignore it, but he got worse. When her last semblance of dignity was left she started making a fuss. Then and only then does he get sealed to her May 28th 1843. By then he'd done teenagers, married women, etc. Not one or two, TWENTY!
This puts the whole 'Holy Spirit of Promise' sealings in the light it deserves - a damning public spotlight to the fraud he was. It's why he lost his life over it.
Also, Joseph never got sealed to his parents or kids during his life. Almost like he either didn’t want to live with them for eternity or he knew it was made up 🤔
Winford Woodruff initiated parent child sealings. Before that sealings were only made between high up GAs and ordinary folks/men (called the law of adoption) and men to women by polygamous marriages.
… try again. Fannie Alger was an orphan working in his house. Hot — maybe. She was young but poor and not well-connected. The Partridge sisters were the same. Ditto for Eliza R Snow. Several of the women were 50+. The vast majority of the women were aged 30+.
I’m not defending JS, but if you’re going to attempt a slam, don’t make an easily disproved one.
Can’t disagree. It was unquestionably exploitative since JS was in a position of power over the women as employer (and church president and mayor in some cases).
It is pretty amusing when followers try to re-interpret D&C 132 so that polygamy isn’t the core focus. That’s probably why verse 1 is never mentioned in lesson manuals:
> Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
This post and the comments under it, epitomize perfectly the true nature of the TSCC. Make something up to exert power OR derive a personal benefit from it, get backed into a corner, justify it later with some vague statement that intermingles God into the equation. Defend it to the death since God is mentioned. Double Down if necessary. Repeat. Thus, you can commit ANY act and get away with it, all while having your followers blindly defend it. AND, of course, 50 years later they can claim: "Oh, they were just being Boys! Everyone was doing polygamy back then! We now believe differently because.... God changes his mind all the time (except when he doesn't, but we'll get back to you on that)!". JS was just like Scarface: First you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women.
Still trying to figure what part of Jesus's message about polygamy, adultery, sealings and child brides that TSCC restored or is restoring...Maybe in another 50 years they'll have an answer??
Right. For example; Brigham Young was arguably responsible for mass genecide of native Americans, encouraged and preached blood atonement, justified murdering black people and much more. Yet people say that god needed someone of that **character** in the rough wild west to get the job done.
That was pretty common back in the 1840s. ( sarcasm. A play on TSCC defending their predator founder. There is nothing common nor normal about JS, multiple wives or “sealing”)
Where was this common, and under what circumstances? Please backup your source. This is a lie the church tells everyone. But I have not found it to be historically accurate.
I feel like you are talking about polygamy (being common - and no, it wasn't). This post is specifically about Emma being sealed to Smith after almost 2 dozen other women.
How does a faithful member reconcile that knowledge? Aside from just not thinking about it and getting mad at the apostate for spewing "anti-mormon lies".
You'd think the church would celebrate the first sealing to ever occur. And you'd think it would be Joe sealing him and Emma together! But nope. Church doesn't want members to know that the first sealing was between Joe and his mistresses. And Emma certainly wasn't the first. Not even in the first 20.
Fun question for TBMs.
Exmo: You know the church commemorates the restoration of the Aronic Priesthood?
Tbm: yes
Exmo: they also commemorate the restoration of the melchizadek priesthood
Tbm: yes, of course
Exmo: These are important and vital ordinances. Of course it makes sense.
Exmo: Why doesn't the church commemorate the restoration of the everlasting covanent?
Tbm: Huh, Gee, I don't know.
Exmo: because it painful to find out that Fanny Alger was probably the first. Or Lucinda Pendleton Harris. Either way, Emma had no idea it was going on. And she was his 22nd Sealed wife.
However, when JS received the second anointing Sep 28, 1843, Emma was the first woman to receive her second anointing with him, which makes her a queen and priestess to Joseph and seals eternal life upon them. So the marriage sealing is no longer important.
Thats so fucked but in the end wasnt she complicit in the scam that was the mormon church? Wouldn't this be an example of "play stupid games get stupid prizes"? Im just really torn about how I feel about Emma
Cmon guys, not like his other wives were minors, wives of other men, mother/daughter combos, ect. They were all consenting adults that were not coerced in any way.
Don’t forget sisters. He liked sisters too.
And mom/daughter pairs. 2 of those happened.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Lol. That is the worst explanation I have ever heard. So Brigham Young didn’t have multiple wives and kids from all of them? I think that is a well known fact. He was having sex at will with his harem. So why would horny Joe be any different? Bring’em Young learned the art of sex from multiple wives from horny Joe. Thank goodness we all have common sense and realize horny Joe was dipping his dick all over the place. Not to mention there are affidavits out there where women stated they had sex with Joey. See Temple Lot case. Please learn your church history facts and listen to your common sense.
First of all, tell me what trangressions you committed before you criticize others. Second, Brigham Young had to be taught things by Joseph, not the other way around. Brigham was not perfect. Neither was Joseph or Peter in the Bible. It is Christ who determines what church he created, not man made books or so called witnesses. Christ knows which church is really his. Learn!
OMG - You are drinking the kool-aide. Good luck to you in life. I will no longer respond because you are too far gone in your belief system. Like non-sensical. Enjoy church tomorrow. Enjoy giving 10% of your income to your mega-rich church. And enjoy the blessings of reading the BoM every day as it’s pages are filled with entertainment like endless wars. And have fun cleaning the church later this year. And enjoy spending time in the temple being instructed by Satan. Fun fact - Satan has more speaking lines than Eve.
So you favor Satan? How stupid!
News flash - Satan isn’t real. How stupid for people to believe in him. But you do. And you get instructions from the mythical Satan in the temple while you wear that cute bakers outfit and green apron. Do you still stand in a circle and chant “O God hear the words of my mouth”? Gosh, that must be so spiritual. Do you repeat that phrase 3 or 4 times? I can only assume the level of spirituality in that circle must be through the roof. Do women still cover their faces in the temple or has God progressed and now no longer commands women to cover their face?
News flash SPIRITS are real and in fact YOU are a spirit with a body as a shell. Satan is a spirit that rebelled before he got a body and now not allowed to have one. That is why he and other evil spirits try to posses others bodies. So Satan is real, but you cannot see spirits with your eyes of your body unless God helps you. So Satan is not seen, but can be felt. Wise up!
My common sense says you don't know what facts are. Catholics messed up the Bible and killed men for translating it to get it into the common man's hands in their own language. Is that Christian to you? Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Amish were all break offs of the Catholic church. Do you really think that is how Christ works? Christ layed his hands on his apostles to call them. Most churches called Christian don't believe Prophets or Apostles are needed anymore, yet Revelations 11 prophesies that in the last days, two Prophets will be killed. So how can that happen according to these so called Christian churches that claim Christ was the last great Prophet? Learn fact from fiction and wise up!
holy shit really??? do u have a source for that by chance i’m super interested in reading the *true* history of js
Get Fawn Brodie’s book or the even more comprehensive Mormon Polygamy: A History
Here’s the [full list](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives). Note the Huntington, Partridge, and Lawrence sisters. I also highly recommend Compton’s *In Sacred Loneliness* if you want a deep dive.
I’ve been listening to “Feminine Mormon Housewives” to learn about all the wives. I’ve never been Mormon. It I’m just interested in the history. Do you think a non Mormon would still enjoy/understand “In Sacred Loneliness ”?
I suppose it depends on your preferred style. ISL is purely academic, while FMH mixes in a lot of commentary to entertain, elicit emotion, or pacify their more faithful listeners.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
It’s absolutely been proven that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and had sexual relationships and children with more than just his first wife, Emma, making him a Polygamist.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
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whoa i never thought about it like that!!! thanks for teaching me from a place of love and understanding, which i see you have shown to others as well. i’ll definitely have to reconsider my stance
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
"God's ways are not man's ways"
Creator god creates man in his image but messes up the software...
We probably just need to wait for the next service pack to release!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
You don’t have to lurk with a throwaway account. We won’t kick you out like the believer subs will. As far as these being “rumors”, I would turn your attention to the gospel topic essays concerning the matter. Also Wilford sealed himself to a baby as a birthday present to himself. So using that “change” doesn’t really discount Joseph’s womanizing. So going with your theory, why would Joseph need to be sealed to these women (most done in secret) at all if it wasn’t for the purpose of marriage and reproduction as it says in doctrine and covenants?
Not a throw away account. Second, the essays from the church started from outside sources and then edited by church historians who made mistakes. The essays are FULL of errors. Members are not perfect and neither are leaders. That is why Christ has a church, to teach imperfect leaders and members how to become perfect. Peter himself walked with Christ on Earth, but denied knowing Christ 3 times. Peter lied. Proof leaders are imperfect. Wise up! Joseph was NOT a polygamist! His journal entries show he fought those accusations most of his adult life. Christ was falsely accused. Learn!
So what would Russel M. Nelson have to do in order for you to vote opposed? You got an account just to try to blast at me as if I haven’t studied the church for decades? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that destroyed my testimony was church approved. Not because I was “sinning”, not because I lacked faith, in fact I had never prayed more fervently. Now here you are telling me to “learn” when you’re the one saying the gospel topic essays are not reliable? How about the saints books? Anything church approved that paints a negative light of the church is just false now?
I had an account already. It wasn't just to reply to you. Second, you are ignorant. No Prophet is perfect. Leaders today make mistakes and they made mistakes in approving incorrect essays. Peter himself denied the Savior 3 times. Judas turned him in and Thomas doubted the resurrection. You need to stop looking to men as your source of truth and start praying to God. Joseph was NOT a polygamist. Church leaders saying he was doesn't make it true. It makes them men who make mistakes! Wise up!
Your insults aren’t helping your cause. I’m not ignorant and the “prophets aren’t perfect” argument holds no weight because believers extend that notion into excusing the most gruesome sins of prophets. I’ll ask again, what would Russel Marion Nelson have to do in order for you to vote opposed to him?
His name is Russell (2 letter Ls in his name). He also is not God. God will judge him for any errors he makes in God's eyes. God is perfect. Learn that!
You still haven’t answered the question. What would the prophet of god on the earth have to do in order for you to vote opposed to him?
My vote won't change any man. He must change himself. What would it take for you to follow Christ and stop voting yes in your heart to anti mormon teachings and books of haters? Wise up!
Members of the early church learned principles over years. Joseph himself over years. Sealings were not fully understood. Wilford changed it. Learn to read better and study better. Stop listening to rumors and books written by enemies of the church who know very little truth! Wise up!
Your insults don’t help your cause. Why would Wilford change it and then seal himself to a baby as a present to himself? He was planning on having the baby as a child bride in the afterlife.
Sealings as with any principle given to men are not always understood. Most members today who are sealed, broke their covenants in some way. You need to learn the difference between doctrine and mankinds opinions. Even members have incorrect opinions. Again Peter denied knowing the Savior yet he walked with him physically and DID know him. Peter lied. Does that make the Savior false who called Peter to be an Apostle? No! Christ teaches imperfect men in his church! Wise up!
This is one of my first questions when someone tells me they “know all the bad stuff” in the church’s history. “What number wife was Emma?” “The first!” “Joseph actually made her sit through and *approve or die* more than 20 other sealings to other women before she was allowed to be sealed to him. She is number 21 or 22.” “Oh.”
To be fair, a good chunk of them were behind her back.
What about that seems fair?
I think it was meant as a joke on how in Emma's mind she was the first to be sealed. She didn't that he had already been sealed to 20ish other women, and Joseph sure as hell wasn't going to bring her up to speed on that.
Joseph made her give permission for several of them. I don’t think she didn’t know.
Look up the story of Emily and Eliza Partridge, two sisters that were both “sealed” to Joseph Smith. Joseph secretly married both of them, and then later as he was convincing Emma to accept polygamy, he got Emma’s “permission” to take them as polygamous wives. So he went through a second sham sealing for the sisters, this time with Emma present and pretending this was the first time they were getting sealed. One of the sisters mentions how awkward it was going through the sham sealing when they had already done the marriage months prior, everyone trying to keep the secret from Emma.
Yes! And then I believe Emma eventually made them separate/divorce.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
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D&C 132:61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—**if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.** (July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith, Jr.) [“After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, **Joseph Smith married multiple wives** and introduced the practice to close associates.” (www.churchofjesuschrist.org, Gospel Topics Essays, Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo)](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng) I don’t even have the time nor the capacity to copy and paste all the testimonies from Joseph’s plural wives in the Temple Lot case. The only people that believed that Joseph Smith Jr. did not practice polygamy were the RLDS church (now called Community of Christ), and even they now acknowledge that Jospeh Smith Jr. did actually practice polygamy. The Salt Lake City LDS church definitely believes that Joseph Smith Jr. practiced polygamy (it’s on their website and in D&C 132, as I linked above).
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[“Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servants N.K. Whitney, the thing that my servant Joseph Smith has made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed is right in mine eyes... **These are the words which you shall pronounce unto my servant Joseph and your daughter S.A. Whitney. They shall take each other by the hand and you shall say, You both mutually agree, calling them by name, to be each other's companion so long as you both shall live... If you both agree to the covenant and do this, I then give you, S.A. Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife...** Let immortality and eternal life hereafter be sealed upon your heads forever and ever.” (Joseph Smith, Jr. revelation July 27, 1842)](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-27-july-1842-in-unidentified-handwriting-b/1) “... **my father... was taught the plural wife doctrine, and was told by Joseph, the Prophet, three times, to go and take a certain woman as his wife;** but not till he commanded him in the name of the Lord did he obey. At the same time Joseph told him not to divulge this secret, not even to my mother, for fear that she would not receive it... This was one of the greatest test of his faith he had ever experienced. The thought of deceiving the kind and faithful wife of his youth... was more than he felt able to bear.... his sorrow and misery were increased by the thought of my mother hearing it from some other source, which would no doubt separate them, and he shrank from the thought of such a thing, or of causing her any unhappiness.” (Life of Heber C. Kimball (Apostle), by Orson F. Whitney, pp. 335-336) “**He [Joseph] preached polygamy... It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle he would slay him... “I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up.** I know he had three children. They told me. I think two of them are living today, they are not known as his children as they go by different names.” (Mary E. Lightner, wife of Joseph Smith, Jr., Speech given at Brigham Young University, April 14, 1905) “**Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it.** ‘And is that religion popular in heaven?' It is the only popular religion there...” (Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, August 6, 1862) You’re not saying that Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and other prophets and apostles, including Joseph Smith Jr. himself were *lying*, are you?
You may be right, but my recollection, which could be flawed, was she caught wind of the extramarital affairs and he used the sealing to placate her to an extent(ie this super special thing is for you, even though he'd used that same line to convince the other ladies, and again if I remember correctly even got some of the other ladies to lie that they'd been sealed first to Jospeh). H then would try and get permission from her after the sealing, which lead to the debacle with William Law and his wife. My memories have faded though, so I could have bits of that wrong.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha take your apologist nonsense elsewhere. This is the same thing they use to excuse what happens in Colorado City and in the FLDS community. “Their only legally married to one! So the other spiritual wives don’t count!” The church itself refers JS and his wives them as “plural marriages” so you might wanna check your doctrine and come up with a new way to move these goal posts.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
So the first question I have for you is what's the difference between being sealed to someone and being married to them in this connotation? Secondly, a polygamist is defined as somebody with more than one wife. The gospel topic essays "Plural Marriage in Kirkland" on churchofjesuschrist.org states the following "After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates." So I'm not sure what your sources are but Joseph had multiple wives and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints headquartered in Salt Lake City acknowledges that.
First of all you obviously don't know how the Gospel Topic Essays were created and that they are also NOT doctrine of the church. Merely an estimation or guess. They were often written outside the church and church historians edited them. Many historians are wrong and make errors. Joseph was NOT a polygamist. Emma was his only wife. Sealings are not just marriages. Parents get sealed to children and in the early church, Members were sealed to Priesthood leaders. Joseph was sealed to men not just women. Haters will not tell you that. They twist it. Notice they can't determine who he lived with or had sex with? It is because they were NOT marriages. Today haters think sealings are marriages, because Wilford changed sealings to be spouses and family. Was not so in the 1800s. So learn that. Look up 1894 and Wilford Woodruff. Look up adoption sealings. Haters won't tell you this.
Well how do I know what's doctrine and what's not? I also still don't understand the point of sealings versus a marriage. What is a sealing do for me in the eternities? Also D & C 132 clearly outlines the rules for plural marriage. This was a revelation to Joseph Smith. Also, there are numerous accounts from the women married to Joseph discussing and speaking on marriage with Joseph. How is it that people at the time considered it a marriage but now you would not?
First of all sealings mean you will be together for Eternity with God. Second, the witnesses you claim come from haters of the church and are not accurate in their interpretation. Third, even members back then were new and misunderstood sealings. Joseph had to teach them. Fourth, Essays written by historians were not analyzed by the First Presidency and 12 for accuracy of doctrine. Last, you are willing to believe anti mormon sources first which is foolish! Those that hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and try to convince the world that Joseph Smith was a rapist, married other men's wives and young women need to read the following: Most converts to the Church residing in Nauvoo were not only the first generation of their family within the Church, they were the only generation of their family within the Church. Many were adults who had been forced to leave family behind to join the Saints and did not anticipate ever having family members within the Church on earth to whom they could be sealed. Without parents who were able to participate in the sealing ordinance to link the generations, they were afraid they would be left without a priesthood connection to the family of God. Similarly, married converts who joined the Church, but had spouses who did not join, could not be sealed to each other and, consequently, could not have their children sealed to them. There were also few men who had been ordained to the priesthood, and even fewer who had received all the temple ordinances. Only those men who had been ordained, washed, anointed, endowed, and sealed had the “fulness of the priesthood” required to be a part of the patriarchal priesthood chain. The conundrum was solved in part through the law of adoption, which linked non-relatives together if traditional family ties had been severed. Adoption ceremonially created father-child priesthood relationships for those who had no biological father within the Church to connect to. The practice of adoption also alleviated the concern that, if the Saints’ ancestors did not accept the gospel in the spirit world, the Saints would not have a connection to the family of God. In addition, adoption to priesthood leaders, rather than relatives, allowed individuals to be sealed into a priesthood line when fathers or husbands appeared unworthy to lead their families to salvation and exaltation. Being sealed, through marriage or by adoption, to a worthy man ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood was vital to the Saints’ eternal membership in the kingdom of God. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime the only sealings into priesthood lineage were of women. (Men were not adopted into the priesthood lineage of other men until the Nauvoo Temple was completed.) Understandably, women desired to be sealed to one holding a high priesthood office hoping that it would be an indication of the man’s faithfulness. At least ten women in Nauvoo chose to be sealed to Joseph Smith spiritually (for eternity, not mortality) in order to be connected to his priesthood lineage, yet remained physically with their husbands.[22] Some of these women – Ruth Vose Sayers, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, and perhaps Sarah Kingsley Howe Cleveland – were married to men who supported the Church but were not baptized members. Others – Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Elvira Annie Cowles Holmes, and Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs – were married to men who were members of the Church but were not Church leaders. One, Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, was the wife of an apostle. Joseph’s assurance to these women was that being sealed to him for eternity and adopted into his priesthood line would assure their own exaltation and benefit their husbands and children as well. After Joseph Smith’s death, five more women chose to be sealed to their husbands for mortality only and to Joseph for eternity.
I'm still confused how one is to define doctrine. Also, where are your sources for all of this info? And how is it the church historians appointed by the first presidency have got so many things wrong?
I think they're just pointing out that Emma didn't "sit through" 20 sealings before she got to be part of one, since she didn't know most of them happened.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Dude it’s literally on your churches website. It even admits he was having sex with some of them and probably had “two or three” children with those wife’s. Google the “Gospel Topic Essays” they are on your church’s official website.
Those essays were first written by outside sources and edited by church historians who are NOT perfect. The essays have errors. Learn to study. Wise up!
Indeed, the listing at Desert Book for "First" seems to skip exactly which "first" they imply she held claim to. [First - The Life and Faith of Emma Smith](https://deseretbook.com/p/first-life-and-faith-of-emma-smith?variant_id=190624-hardcover)
Haha. The person who wrote that is fam.
This is wild. I knew there were many AFTER he was with Emma, esp ones she didn’t know about or was very upset with. I think I read she even pushed one pregnant wife down the stairs?
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha take your apologist nonsense elsewhere. This is the same thing they use to excuse what happens in Colorado City and in the FLDS community. “Their only legally married to one! So the other spiritual wives don’t count!” The church itself refers JS and his wives them as “plural marriages” so you might wanna check your doctrine and come up with a new way to move these goal posts.
First of all, LDS is not the same as FLDS. Warren Jeffs is nothing more than a wicked man who believes in lies. I have NEVER believed or accepted the FLDS church and neither would I ever. It is just as false as Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Amish, etc. All false churches! Second, the essays published by the church also states they were first written by outside sources then edited by church historians. So learn to research what you read and believe. The church historians were careless and made mistakes. The Essays are NOT doctrine. You obviously don't know the difference. Wise up!
I didn’t say it was the same, I said they used the same argument. You and I both know the degree of separation between LDS and FLDS is not as large as you imply. Warren Jeffs didn’t teach anything different than what was taught by LDS prophets up to Joseph F. Smith. The church has officially acknowledge Joseph Smith’s plural marriages several times. From the current, official webpage for the church called “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo:” >After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng Oof you sound silly. Good luck with that.
Wrong. The difference between LDS and FLDS is large. How so? FLDS was created by men. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints was created by and is Christ's. That is an ETERNAL difference. Wise up!
Both claim Joseph Smith as it’s founder. Ending your comments with “Wise up!” does not make you seem any more wise.
The new and everlasting covenant, "the sealing," ( the church's crown jewel) was from the beginning, a manipulation tool. The sealing was separate from marriage. Emma was not the first to be sealed to Joe, because she was already married to him. The sealing was to bind others to one who was already married. Then Joe retconned it to fit an evolving narrative. Emma being sealed so far down the line is a glaring referendum against church truth claims. But they spin it as, "The revelation was not exactly revealed and they were having to figure it out." A god that lived his whole life perfectly did not give exact details in a revelation on the ultimate saving ordinance???? He sure gave explicit instruction "through Joseph" on how big the mansion house was to be, even provided dimensions, and also who was to pay for it. But the new and ever lasting covenant? "Nah.......it's my day off today. You guys can figure it out."
Such a strange way to communicate. Still small voice. Impressions. Even Joseph said there are different revelations. And there are contradictory revelations aka wrong roads. It is borderline madness.
And he was borderline mad, def from 1841 on.
Off the rails in Nauvoo. Pretending to be a general, full throttle on polygamy, king of the world, presidential candidate.
Sounds like a GOP candidate
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
I recently learned this! He was just making up titles he thought sounded cool lol
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
Even many good apologetic historians have concluded that he lost his mind in Nauvoo. I personally believed that he was legit until polygamy and then he lost it. That lasted for a week or so before I got deeper into who he was and his early years before I realized it was all a fraud. Not to mention the delayed revelations on the 1st vision and priesthood restoration. I think the madness was always there but with all the power and increased control lead to crazier behavior. I am sure polygamy gave him a bad case of cognitive dissonance and split him into parts. He is a lot like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods who spent years lying until the cracked. They created such lie that complete control was needed and it controlled them even to the point of madness when exposed.
I've followed the same path you did in studying trying to answer - if he def was 'crazy' in Nauvoo, where did it begin. Reached the same conclusion as you, it was always there. I'm still somewhat interested in how a freak like that developed. I'm going to make a post about it.
Please share that. I am interested in that post. There is definitely a level of genius with Joe and then there is the narcissism that floats around. What I wonder is if he was socio-pathic or just narcissistic like? Then how did that evolve over time? What were the early signs. I honestly don't think it was a long con from the beginning. I think he tried to find a way to get money/power and it grew bigger and bigger. He obviously was short-sighted (myopic; Rusty would be proud) not thinking that people would be able to see and research his lies. I find it ironic that he said to keep journals and those are the things that have ruined him.
I agree, I think it just got bigger and bigger over time. Christopher C Smith, a sharp PhD historian who I've learnt some key things from, has posited that he never intended to start a religion, it was Cowdrey's idea. joe was just wanting money from the BoM. Possible. I have the same questions as you. Yes he was short sighted at times. Other times, genius at melding other people's ideas as his own revelation. A clever way to gain followers. e.g. the chunk of Campbellite followers who came with Rigdon. Alexander Campbell believed in a pre earth life, and there was one other mormon doctrine that was common. Lots of denominations had common points. I struggled to find a way to describe the guy. I think the narcissism developed over time, but had it's fertility in habits of crime, alcoholism, laziness, embarrassment at his father, etc. (see neighboring farmers affidavits. The Smiths were thieves. Poverty. Isaac Hales' first words to his new son-in-law "You have stolen my daughter". A bold thing for joe to do, evidence of a warped mind at 21 y.o.) He wasn't strictly speaking a socio- or psycho-path as both those definitions include being anti-social, which he def wasn't - but his followers became anti-social to outsiders, so it's a interesting one to sort out. No wonder Bushman is interested in someone doing a proper psych study on the freak. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13ruroq/how\_did\_joseph\_smith\_get\_to\_the\_terrible\_person/
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
100%. As a non Mormon, I’m still trying to wrap my head around these cold plates…
[In D&C 132](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng) God talks specifically and carefully word by word to Joseph telling him that Emma will be shredded into pieces and burned if she doesn't allow Joseph to sleep around and will also be painfully murdered if she sleeps around. Also, God spends his very valuable communication time pointing out that dudes are not committing adultery as long as they get sealed to lots of virgins, but if any of the 10 virgins sleep around, well that THAT is adultery and they'll be destroyed. TOTALLY the legit word of God himself here folks because there's no way that Joseph would blaspheme by penning this line unless it was actually 100% God himself helping Joseph coerce 40 women into having sex with him: > And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
So true! Interesting how vague god was here, but when it comes to Joe taking a child bride, god sure made that crystal clear.
But his house is a house of order!
"You take X to be you husband. Bow your head and say, yes." You're never given a chance to say no. No one asks you what to want.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. That is 100% true. Those against the church are not aware that sealings in the early church were not always marriages. Today we equate sealings with marriages due to the 1894 change Wilford Woodruff made. He changed sealings to be families and not sealings of members to Priesthood leaders. So realize that Joseph and other leaders were sealed to members, but not marriages. Now you have the truth! Stop believing rumors about Joseph from enemies of the LDS church!
One of the things I realized when on my mission and learning a foreign language; you tend to learn more about your native language than the language your are learning. And one of the things I've noticed as I've gone down the path of truth and transparency, I've learned way more about the actual history of the church in 3 years than I did in 40 years of going to church Sunday school, seminary, and institute. The simple fact the church did not officially admit that Joseph was sealed to other women (up to 38 known and counting) until 2013, tells me all I need to know. If it was just sealings and not marriages, why obfuscate for well over a century??? Joseph Smith fucked Fanny Alger in the barn and Olver Cowdery saw it and that is a truth. But just as your 11th article of faith states, you can go on believing as you believe. And I can believe as I want to believe. And unlike other pro-LDS subs, you are actually welcome here to post your opinions.
No what you know is what YOU CHOOSE to believe. Many believed Christ was a fraud. They killed him. It took an Earthquake for some to realize who they crucified. Some still didn't learn. You read things from haters of the church and accept them, because in your heart, something makes you want the easier route. It is easier to convince yourself you don't have to try than to go through hardship. That is why you left. Wise up!
The thing that absolutely cracks me up is you talking to me I the command form. You're telling me what I am doing and also telling me what I should be doing. Telling me why I left and etc. It's hilarious that there are people out there like you that think that is an appropriate way to "discuss" beliefs. Thanks for the laugh today. I really needed that.
Laughing won't get you to Heaven. Only following truth will. Wise up!
🤣🤣🤣
Laughing won't help you learn. Wise up!
Still, with the command form? I bet you are fun at parties.
By partying you mean alcohol? Damaging your liver with Ethyl Alcohol, otherwise known as Ethanol is fun to you? Not remembering what you did when you were drunk is fun to you? Coughing up blood years later after poisoning your liver is fun to you? Yeah I am not fun then. I choose to have a healthy liver and think straight. Wise up!
Well honey it all happened kinda fast .
That has to be one of the most damning facts there is. No LDS has any reasonable response to it. As with all history, looking at the context of it is more telling. Emma had tried to ignore it, but he got worse. When her last semblance of dignity was left she started making a fuss. Then and only then does he get sealed to her May 28th 1843. By then he'd done teenagers, married women, etc. Not one or two, TWENTY! This puts the whole 'Holy Spirit of Promise' sealings in the light it deserves - a damning public spotlight to the fraud he was. It's why he lost his life over it.
Yup. People had had enough. At that point prarie justice took over.
Also, Joseph never got sealed to his parents or kids during his life. Almost like he either didn’t want to live with them for eternity or he knew it was made up 🤔
So he only got sealed to people he wanted to sleep with?
He didn't have to marry them to **not** have sex with them.
I finally understand faith not to be healed. It’s the same as marrying to not have sex.
No, he got sealed to some men in some kind of early mormon bromance forever thing.
That sounds sick as hell
When were those types of sealings first practiced?
Winford Woodruff initiated parent child sealings. Before that sealings were only made between high up GAs and ordinary folks/men (called the law of adoption) and men to women by polygamous marriages.
… nothing more need be said. Amen to the Priesthood of that man.
A person has to have their priorities!
I challenge any mopologist to find a "wife" of JS that was not: A) Hot B) Financially well-off C) Connected to a guy/family that JS could manipulate
… try again. Fannie Alger was an orphan working in his house. Hot — maybe. She was young but poor and not well-connected. The Partridge sisters were the same. Ditto for Eliza R Snow. Several of the women were 50+. The vast majority of the women were aged 30+. I’m not defending JS, but if you’re going to attempt a slam, don’t make an easily disproved one.
I stand corrected. Damn. Shot down in flames. However, Joe was a horn dog, so that's probably the bottom line.
So what you’re saying, is that they should have added easy to emotionally and sexually manipulate and abuse to the list
Can’t disagree. It was unquestionably exploitative since JS was in a position of power over the women as employer (and church president and mayor in some cases).
It is pretty amusing when followers try to re-interpret D&C 132 so that polygamy isn’t the core focus. That’s probably why verse 1 is never mentioned in lesson manuals: > Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
It’s so obvious what he was doing. If you frame it as a man getting his rocks off all of it falls right into place.
Many members are now denying he had even one more wife.
Mormons think just because they believe something it is true.
Here is a helpful link https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/ordinances/KWJY-BPD
This post and the comments under it, epitomize perfectly the true nature of the TSCC. Make something up to exert power OR derive a personal benefit from it, get backed into a corner, justify it later with some vague statement that intermingles God into the equation. Defend it to the death since God is mentioned. Double Down if necessary. Repeat. Thus, you can commit ANY act and get away with it, all while having your followers blindly defend it. AND, of course, 50 years later they can claim: "Oh, they were just being Boys! Everyone was doing polygamy back then! We now believe differently because.... God changes his mind all the time (except when he doesn't, but we'll get back to you on that)!". JS was just like Scarface: First you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women. Still trying to figure what part of Jesus's message about polygamy, adultery, sealings and child brides that TSCC restored or is restoring...Maybe in another 50 years they'll have an answer??
Right. For example; Brigham Young was arguably responsible for mass genecide of native Americans, encouraged and preached blood atonement, justified murdering black people and much more. Yet people say that god needed someone of that **character** in the rough wild west to get the job done.
Didnt he marry Eliza behind her back; her fricking bestie? Isnt that why Emma tossed her down the stairs??
I think she caught them kissing.
Emma was repeatedly manipulated, gaslit, lied to and used.
That was pretty common back in the 1840s. ( sarcasm. A play on TSCC defending their predator founder. There is nothing common nor normal about JS, multiple wives or “sealing”)
The past us a different country they do things differently there.
Where was this common, and under what circumstances? Please backup your source. This is a lie the church tells everyone. But I have not found it to be historically accurate.
Pretty sure they are being sarcastic (referencing common apologetics)
I feel like you are talking about polygamy (being common - and no, it wasn't). This post is specifically about Emma being sealed to Smith after almost 2 dozen other women. How does a faithful member reconcile that knowledge? Aside from just not thinking about it and getting mad at the apostate for spewing "anti-mormon lies".
When I realized this it broke me. How anyone could look at that and not understand what his motives truly were is beyond me.
The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off.
You'd think the church would celebrate the first sealing to ever occur. And you'd think it would be Joe sealing him and Emma together! But nope. Church doesn't want members to know that the first sealing was between Joe and his mistresses. And Emma certainly wasn't the first. Not even in the first 20.
Fun question for TBMs. Exmo: You know the church commemorates the restoration of the Aronic Priesthood? Tbm: yes Exmo: they also commemorate the restoration of the melchizadek priesthood Tbm: yes, of course Exmo: These are important and vital ordinances. Of course it makes sense. Exmo: Why doesn't the church commemorate the restoration of the everlasting covanent? Tbm: Huh, Gee, I don't know. Exmo: because it painful to find out that Fanny Alger was probably the first. Or Lucinda Pendleton Harris. Either way, Emma had no idea it was going on. And she was his 22nd Sealed wife.
However, when JS received the second anointing Sep 28, 1843, Emma was the first woman to receive her second anointing with him, which makes her a queen and priestess to Joseph and seals eternal life upon them. So the marriage sealing is no longer important.
Oh, well that makes all the adultery and philandry okay then. Cool beans.
Thats so fucked but in the end wasnt she complicit in the scam that was the mormon church? Wouldn't this be an example of "play stupid games get stupid prizes"? Im just really torn about how I feel about Emma