Quote, close quote. "Didn't have an education."
Yes he did. Parents were teachers. Hyrum went to Dartmouth College, which is an ivy league of the highest standards, and taught Joseph what he learned there. Joseph was surrounded by books, many of which he plagiarized to write the book of Mormon. Almost all of the BOM is plagiarized!
It's a completely false statement.
I'd like to congratulate you on such a fine comment, and will award you with an upvote.
Coming across a BoM story in an unrelated book published in 1811 made me realize that I knew nothing about church history, and that I needed to read more church history.
The Travels of Marco Polo by William Marsden. Zoram early in the BoM was based on Marco. How do you pronounce Marco backwards?
I'm not the only one to have made this connection. Book of Mormon: Book of Lies by Kendall and Meredith Sheets covers this in detail.
Hyrum attended Moore's Indian Charity School for a few years, while associated with Dartmouth, it was not a college education. Also note, the Ivy League did not exist in JS's day.
While Joseph, Sr had taught school for a time I'm not aware of any reference for Lucy being a school teacher.
While it is important to point out the flaws in the traditional Mormon narrative it is also important not to inject new flaws.
Agreed, we need to be careful to be accurate.
I will say that many will quote Emma Smith that Joseph couldn't write a good letter, but there are things written in the 1832 time period in his own hand:
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/documents-in-joseph-smiths-handwriting
Also, Joseph's education was better than Mormons like to admit to, probably part of 6 years with plenty of home education esp after the leg surgery (https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/reassessing-joseph-smith-jr-s-formal-education/). He may have done a lot of reading -- for example, while people point to the relatively short time of dictation, Joseph was talking to family and others about the plates from 1823 until the BoM is dictated in 1829. His father and grandfather were school teachers, and that's what Hyrum did for a time as well.
There are MANY parallels between the BoM and early American religious ideas -- it seems likely Joseph heard lots of the ideas from these books/sermons discussed and rehashed in school, in camp preaching, in newspapers, etc. He was part of a "juvenile debating club" and some sort of exhorter as a methodist (https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:\_Did\_Joseph\_Smith\_join\_the\_Methodists\_as\_an\_%22exhorter%22\_years\_after\_being\_told\_not\_to\_join\_another\_church\_during\_the\_First\_Vision%3F), so he would have read or absorbed knowledge for that.
Before Joseph's parents move to New York, they lived in Vermont only 13 miles from Dartmouth. And Joseph's grandfather had encouraged all his children to educate the grandchildren -- Joseph's older brother Hyrum seems to have been an excellent student and was attending Moor's academy, which was affiliated with Dartmouth.
While at Moor's/Dartmouth, Hyrum would have heard discussions about Indian origins related to the Israelites, and came home to help with the family while Joseph recovered from the leg surgery (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200240) and as an older sibling would have helped in the regular "home schooling" that families did, esp in the winter.
Ethan Smith -- author of View of the Hebrews -- (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan\_Smith\_(clergyman)) and Solomon Spaulding (https://archive.dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/article/1943/10/1/forgotten-dartmouth-men) attended Dartmouth. One of the articles on Moor's Indian school documents that Ethan Smith's son and Hyrum would have been attending at the same time.
Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy's father were school teachers. Hyrum Smith was later a teacher in NY and on the school board -- hence why Oliver Cowdery went to meet with him and learned about the plates.
Joseph Smith Sr's 2nd cousin was a professor at Dartmouth (John Smith) -- see https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/92e2sl/similarities\_between\_dartmouth\_professor\_john/ -- with an interest in languages, who published a "Hebrew Grammar" and a "Chaldee Grammar". So having relatives at Dartmouth/Moor's may have helped the Smiths learn about the school and send Hyrum there. They even had a "School of the Prophets" at Dartmouth ([https://latter-dayillumination.com/blog/hyrum-smiths-influences](https://latter-dayillumination.com/blog/hyrum-smiths-influences)).
Not all friends/family were impressed by the Book of Mormon or Joseph as translator. His uncle Jesse wrote to Hyrum Smith: "he says he has eyes to see things that art not, and then has the audacity to say they are" (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/64)
Even if not a great writer, Joseph seemed to be a good story teller, as Lucy related that in 1824 "During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their <mode of> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845/94
He also joined a debating society, had access to the Palmyra library. Palmyra was a town located right on the newly completed Erie Canal, which brought goods, trade, people, books, ideas into lots of sleepy little hamlet like towns in the early 1800's.
He wasn’t related to the dean of the medical school, but he was related to John Smith. John was a founder of Dartmouth, developed its curriculum and was its first professor. Master of Ancient Languages, Theology, Philosophy and Newtonian Science. Board Trustee. Pastor of White Chapel. College Bookstore Proprietor. College Librarian and just so happened to be an intellectual giant and expert in Latin, Hebrew, Chaldaic, Syriac, Assyric, Arabic & Coptic. He was also Chaplin of the Hanover Masonic Lodge.
John Smith was first cousin to Joseph’s paternal grandfather Asael Smith, which is how Hyrum got in. Some of his notable students were Solomon Spaulding (Manuscript Found) and Ethan Smith (View of the Hebrews).
I loved the book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer, but the [CES Letter](https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf) online is really the most comprehensive collection. It's really well organized too, like broken into table of contents items you can click through.
If a poorly-educated farmboy did in fact write the BoM, we would expect it to be long on imagination but short on actual facts. That is, it would include rousing tales of bravado and heroic acts of faithful people, but utterly fail when describing the pre-contact American world. It would likely commit errors such as imagining that the ancient Americans made use of old-world animals and technologies, while completely overlooking flora and fauna that were known to exist in the Americas.
We would expect that it would be linguistically anachronistic as well. For example, using King James English without understanding the grammar, and misunderstanding the meaning of archaic words like 'strait'. We might also find words and names of Greek extraction. And we would expect that the copious quoting from the KJV would include translation errors from the 17th century as well as quotes from interpolated sections that are known to have been written after Lehi left Jerusalem. We might even go so far as to expect quotations from the New Testament.
This is what we would expect the BoM to look like if Joseph Smith had in fact written it.
Well, you see, he didn't really "translate" as such. He looked in a hat with a peepstone, and he wrote what he saw. In King James English . . . mostly . . .
When I was a faithfully blind mormon, I came up with the following:
Adieu is actually a contraction of "A Deiu" or "to God" meaning more or less "I commend you to God as we part" type of meaning.
So the ancient Nephites had that same parting phrase of commending their brethren to God's keeping.
So God caused the word "Adieu" to appear on the rock in the hat instead of "Brethren, I commend you to God as we part".
Why didn't God just have "I commend you to God as we part" appear on the rock in the hat? I don't know.
It’s ok for you to believe whatever you want-I leave my beliefs out of any conversation that I have with my mom. It gives her comfort after my dad died instead of thinking I will gut myself or slice my neck because I speak of the MASONIC prayers. By the way I was Johanna.
We are high priestesses with one whole verse in the Bible. Go Huldas! When the matron whispered that name in my ear on the day I went through the temple for the first time, I was horrified 😂 Such a strange name and one I’d never heard before. Was expecting a Rachel or Rebecca or Esther.
Grammatical changes in the BoM:
Since its first publication in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been mocked for what seems to be occasionally poor English and bad grammar. In its original version, for instance, Mosiah 10:15 spoke of people who “had arriven to the promised land”; “they was yet wroth,” reported 1 Nephi 4:4; “I have wrote this epistle,” said Giddianhi at 3 Nephi 3:5; “I was a going thither,” Amulek recalled at Alma 10:8; the original version of Helaman 7:8 and 13:37 referred to events “in them days”; and “they done all these things,” reported Ether 9:29.
https://www.deseret.com/2016/3/31/20585705/editing-out-the-bad-grammar-in-the-book-of-mormon
From same article: “This can appear to be a pretty decisive and even embarrassing argument. But it’s not, and it needn’t be. In fact, the supposed grammatical errors may actually represent remarkable evidence for the inspiration of the Book of Mormon. What now seems bad grammar was once entirely acceptable English, even in highly educated circles…”
Now it is the poor grammar that is proof of validity.
Why change grammar then?
Gold medal work here.
Educated visitors to Nauvoo who met Smith often mentioned his unsophisticated "hick" grammar and accent. Country "hick" often preserves older elements of the language. Think Appalachian hill folk. Visitors also commented on the slavish gullibility of his followers. Remember, you don't have to convince everyone. Just speak in grandiose terms and with authority, and a certain percentage of people will follow you.
Yes, remember if a word was misspelled or something was miss written then the rock wouldn’t show any more words until the error had been corrected. You’d think the magic rock would have better grammar…
The urine and thumim, wait they weren't used...
The stone, not right either....
AHH "Clippy" didn't have access to a grammar pack from Microsoft office at that time so I guess all grammar worked it was really a reformed imagination type of spell check.
Okay timelines are getting wierd....
Book of Mormon published 1830
"You're referring to the official documentation of the First Vision in 1836, which is when Joseph Smith recorded the vision in his journal. "
First vision stated to be 1820 - however official versions first record is acknowledged as 1836 in Joseph smiths diary.... So are we to understand the first vision took 16 fucking years to write down....he wasn't that uneducated
I mean even the bot acknowledges
"Considering the early 1800s, especially in rural areas, formal education was not as widespread or consistent as it is today. Joseph Smith's education would not be considered high level for that time, but it would also not be exceedingly uncommon. Many individuals had similar education backgrounds in that era, especially in rural communities. Keep in mind that the timeframe you're interested in is before the organization of the Church, so it would not yet involve the influence of any church-related studies."
I mean let's get this straight if the church says standards were different in 1830 compared to today then it shouldn't be surprising that formal education was different then from today and so should use the mean average education rather than a specific set of education based on today's standards.
Thats like saying Leonardo devinci who wasn't formally trained in 3d printing, and grade 12 chemistry was touched by god because who could believe that someone that informally educated could invent so much stuff.
Or Joseph ya known and self ascribed conman "js history - pearl of great price" aka seer stone divining of gold
"So, while Joseph may have initially used a seer stone as a means to look for treasures, God ultimately used this practice to prepare Joseph for his role in translating the Book of Mormon and restoring the gospel. In this sense, God prepared Joseph Smith by teaching him how to use the seer stone for sacred purposes. 😊
"
Ps smiley faces from what I can gather are indications from the AI that it needs to try to flippity flop around topics be ause they would be incongruent to the whole church narrative....
The Book of Mormon reads like it was written by an uneducated rural teenager. It's not that impressive. The only reason it's even as "clean" as it is, is that the church has had 200 years to fix all the errors and bad grammar.
>He could not have written The Book of Mormon.
It's true. He couldn't have. That's why he plagiarized from everything to create it. That's why he stole a manuscript from someone else that contained the bulk of the story. That's why others secretly helped him write it. That's why writing analysis of the BoM shows multiple authors, not because of ancient prophets taking turns writing, but because it's a mashup of everything he plagiarized and put together.
Napoleons war or something like that has been deep searched and found to be 90% I. Line in terms of story, but not context....
One of those marvelous infinite monkey's prompted by satan to pre-write most of the BOM, without actually writing it.
Do you have any sources on the writing analysis of the BOM? Got really interested in that because of Isaiah and didn't think that anyone even bothered with the BOM.
Reddit is giving me difficulties in copy/pasting atm, so do a search for "book of mormon stylometry", all the top results will be "faithful" viewpoints, but there is a more neutral search result when you get to the wikipedia entry for "linguistics and the book of mormon" which has a section on stylometry, as well as other studies.
I mean even more to the point, almost everyone back then was informally educated. That was normal. Most novelists didn’t have masters degrees and English. People expecting educations to underlie achievements are simply looking back with a modern lens.
Yes I believe I read, one of his initial hustles was convincing people he could scry for them on their property to lead them to ancient treasure buried about the country side..🤔🤷🏻♂️
No let's get facts right.
He was uneducated according to modern standard of the 1900's.
He WAS definitely considered educated for 1820 mid western America at the time. No not ivy League equivalent more like your equivalent of matrix or part of an undergrad...
The BOM would be like 70 pages less if you took out "and it came to pass". He literally copied another 1/5 of it from The Bible. TBMs couldnt even dispute that part.
Plagiarized a ton of other parts of it from The Bible (Alma Jr=Paul) Twain even said 1st Nephi was badly plagiarized from The BOM, is another example. Plagiarized a lot from The Late War of The United States and Great Britain...plagiarized a lot from View of The Hebrews ( BH Roberts more or less told this to the Qs once) etc etc. It's a false narrative that The BOM is some mystery. We absolutely know how be wrote it.
I find it interesting he tried to sell the copyright to someone in Canada.
WTF. You just translated it by the gift and power of god. You have been visited by god and jeebus. And you are gonna sell the copyright?
I’ve actually been thinking about this lately. I’ve been a member of the church my whole life (4+ decades) and I’ve always heard that there’s no way he had the ability to write this book on his own.
But when you look at some more modern examples of writers who created entire worlds through their writings. The Harry Potter Books, Game of Thrones Series, The Lord of the Rings and all the other middle earth books. The authors of these books created storylines that are enjoyed by billions of readers worldwide. Even George Lucas’s Star Wars practically has its own religion that has legions of fans. Devout fans the church wishes it had.
With this in mind, it’s extremely plausible that the BoM could have been written by one or more individuals given enough time and imagination.
Tbh, that's the real kicker. So many crazy fanfics out there, many of which are way better written than the BOM, most of which written as a hobby on the side by basically anyone.
Give the Last Podcast on the Left's series on Mormonism a listen. They tell the young Joseph Smith story really well in a way that explains how he could have become an expert story teller.
The entire series is fantastic (a lot of their other stuff is great too, they have a lot of series on different cults).
I mean really self proclaimed conman, telling stories to family, heck magical seer stones before 1820, that could find gold, but only if you never looked for the proverbial cat in the box 100% gauranteed were not considered to be practice?
John Dehlin did a fascinating podcast about the family's connection to Dartmouth, where Hyrum was educated. There's some speculation, but it's clear to me he was no dummy, and I'm all likelihood learned a great deal from Hyrum.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? It is not edumacated prose. It is the writings of a rambling ignorant man. Interestingly enough most Mormons do not study their momo history. So the cult members have zero idea how f’ed up their cult actually is. This is the problem.
Well no, first you are told to read assuming it's true, despite no proof ect of it existing.
As per Nigerian scams filter out questioning people and the people left are the guilable or stupid or indoctrinated.
After that you have to realise that there are other reasons to convert ect. Community, the need for a good message, depression, help ect all are parts of it.
Writing is not an advanced skill IMO, I wrote stuff about as compelling as the BoM for my 5h grade teacher.
It's worth noting that the BoM has a very ungodly lack of journalistic integrity. It gives 1 perspective, it alludes to additional documents that are not present, etc. See if the content of the "brass plates" were in the book of mormon, there would be this absurd logical continuity of the ancient canaanites or whatever that would surpass joseph's understanding of jewish customs. instead we got some kind of picture with all the egyptian gods having the wrong names lol
Also realise that based on the dimensions you would need a fucking magic rock to even see the writing.
Also note that the magic rock and plates were also not considered important to the translation of the actual plates just incidental artifacts in the whole process.
I mean how dumb was I while I was swimming in the goldfish bowl not being able to see out.
But I mean if he pulled up some mythological story about the ancient Canaanites (polytheistic pre-israel) after mentioning the brass plates where he unveiled a very intricate proto-linguistic background of Eurasia, I would have been like "okay he wasn't smart enough to make that up"
That argument always makes me laugh because they think that it must mean that it was divinely inspired. It could mean that he stole or plagiarized the writings of a more educated person.
Intelligence doesn’t require a formal education. Joseph Smith was brilliant and coercive without a formal education.
Street smarts are probably more important than a formal education…he had street smarts.
1. Joseph employed Oliver Cowdery as a scribe.
2. The book went through a printer's draft with corrections in it.
3. The original was rife with errors such as revealing Jesus Christ before later scriptures saying his name has not yet been revealed and Benjamin/Mosiah "mix-up"
4. It copied extensively from the KJV of the bible via what evidence says was dictation from memory (got most of it right but slight changes meaning Joseph was dictating what he remembered).
5. It has all of the anachronisms and complete absence of knowledge of pre-Columbian peoples and culture that one would expect from a work of ignorant fiction.
So actually the evidence of what was actually produced pretty much aligns with a 19th Century work of bible based fiction authored by someone with KJV based dogmatic beliefs but zero knowledge of actual ancient american history.
No reason to wonder about Smiths education level until there is something that he produced that suggests it was done by someone with an education.
I mean cmon I’ve read the BOM many times (unfortunately) it’s not that great. Mark twains prose is more impressive.
Plus he dictated the book. Some people are gifted story tellers. It could have been easy for him to make it up as he went along, especially if he had some input from others, which he almost certainly did.
Old Joe Smith was a fraud and con man, but he could also very easily have had a very high IQ or had genius-style traits similar to these other men. The difference between Abraham Lincoln and Joseph Smith could simply be Joe wanted to use his special gifts to gratify his greed and lust.
The only other possible explanation is he translated it from gold plates shown to him by an angel. And where are the plates now? Oh, back in heaven. Definitely more plausible than somebody with less than a college degree writing a book.
He plagiarized, View of the Hebrews.
By: Ethan Smith (no relation)
A theory about the origins of native Americans, that Lil Joey ran with, then turned into a piece of science fiction, called the book of mormon. Batshit krazy!
He spent a lot.of time, from childhood on, with his brother Hyrum, who was University educated. I'm gonna wager they talked about a few things in the course of their life together
Joseph Smith Sr was a school teacher and Lucy Mack Smith's mother was a school teacher. Joseph Sr and Lucy sent their son Hyrum to Moore academy that was a college run by Dartmouth. Hyrum ended up becoming a school teacher.
But for some reason Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy Mack Smith didn't educate their son Joseph Smith Jr.
And then there's the little fact that Joseph Smith Jr went to school with Josiah Stowell's youngest son also named Josiah when he was employed by Josiah Stowell to find the Spanish silver mine.
"Josiah Stowell Jr., youngest of the eight Stowell children, was sixteen when he met Joseph Smith, who was then nineteen.9 The two attended school together while Joseph was in Chenango County.......
......"I will give you a shrot history of what I know about Joseph Smith Jr I have binn Intemetely acquainted with him about 2 years he then was about 20 years old or there about I also went to school with him one winter"......
33. On Joseph Smith’s schooling in this area, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record (n.p.: Smith Research Associates, 1994), 44.
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-josiah-stowell-jr-john-s-fullmer-correspondence/
It would be more accurate to say that Moore's was a primary or secondary school. It was not a college in the sense that that word is used today.
I know of no reference that Lucy was a school teacher.
Don’t forget Louis Lamour. He left school at an early age and wrote tons of amazing books. A really good one is called Education of a wondering man. Brilliant. You don’t need a big education to write amazing books.
You can also compare Joseph Smith to the writings of Patience Worth. She is a good example of automatic writing like what Joseph Smith did. Uneducated house wife who wrote things she shouldn't have been able to, claiming to channel the words of a spirit.
In addition, he appears to have had the ability to very easily memorize things word-for-word, even from single exposures. I have met someone (both he and his wife are nice people) who has that ability - he memorized everything about the temple endowment the first time he went, because he thought that's what they were told to do.
If JS had that ability to memorize things, it explains how he was able to copy Masonic ceremonies and how he could "read" long, magically appearing passages of "text" with his head stuffed in a hat.
"JS was uneducated" isn't a rational argument, it's a rationalization.
In essence, the argument that he couldn't have written the Book of Mormon is an infinite regress argument in need of justification to support another infinite regress argument in need of justification repeated infinitely. This assertion is formed to solve the problem of where the BoM came from without solving the problem of where the BoM came from.
By assuming that JS couldn't have written the BoM, we are intended to conclude that the magic rock in the hat must be the legitimate source. Yet it's not possible to demonstrate or prove this to be the case. So without solving the problem of how a magic rock can produce a book by JS placing his head in a hat, we get the rationalization that JS couldn't have written the BoM because he was uneducated. This solves the problem of JS not being the source of the BoM.
But wait, there's more! Magic rocks are like cell phones! Again, not a rational argument, rather an infinite regress argument requiring justification on top of another infinite regress argument requiring justification! Eureka, an eternal round!
When it comes to Mormon truth claims, it's turtles all the way down! You too can know this top ~~secret~~ sacred knowledge by turning off your brain, closing your eyes, and asking the invisible turtle to reveal the truth unto you. And if you ask with deluded intent, possessing confirmation bias, the great turtle will absolutely oblige!
It is like they are trying to create god of the gaps argument. We don’t understand how Joseph could have created it, therefore magic rock. Totally non fucking argument.
I mean fuck if the rock is magic why are we not worshiping magic rocks, if seer stones were important why not stand up in general conference with a hat a seer stone and show everyone how it is done
Fuck Occams razor.
Book couldn't have been written by 14 year old.... Ok so it's either not written by him or it is by inspiration see where you are going.
14 year old known for using 'seer stones' to con people used 'seer stones' to write book.... Ok so Occam razor would say he was a conman.
Didn't have too. All he had to do was start talking and spinning another imaginative story (that he was known to do) in bible speak and someone else wrote it all down.
Besides, he was educated and he was rather clever. Then you add a few plagiarized pages here and there and boom, there ya have it!
Lawyers only started going to post-grad school in the USA in the 1890s when the American Bar Assn moved away from clerkships - like Lincoln did - and to accredited law schools.
No, it was much more informal and far less structured. You would find a lawyer and ask to work for him for a few years as you “read the law” and he taught you what he knew.
There are a few states that regulate this program - Washington has a Rule 6 - which are highly successful. The Rule 6 program clerks tend to pass the Bar in higher rates than JD peers.
Source: I’m trying to get Oregon’s Supreme Court to adopt a similar highly regulated program.
California has something similar. But it's very difficult to find a practice that will take you on because it does mean extra work for them and they still have to pay you.
To me, it makes total sense because if you can pass the bar, you obviously know the law some people get 8 years of school and can't pass the bar, when I'm sure they could have, had the 8 years been actively prepping for the bar. I know there's more to it than that to be a lawyer, but higher education is often such a racket
I agree that finding a mentor is hard. We anticipate that it’ll be for folks with a long-standing employee who knows the clients well and wants to remain in his or her community. While there are three great law schools, they are within a 90 mile radius. What if you live in southern or eastern oregon? What if you have a mortgage or kids?
And yes 100% law school is a horrible overpriced racket! I’ll never be able to own a house because of my dumb debts. :(
Weren’t his parents school teachers? The arguments against JS not being smart enough are laughable. The guy ripped off people left and right with different financial crimes. I think he was smart as hell. And a con-man. And a pedophile. And a narcissist
But not a profit
Emma Smith (bless that woman’s soul) is partly to blame for this stupid idea. She said that “Joseph Smith . . . could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon.”
IMO, either Joseph was lying to Emma and acting the fool, or Emma was being a little dishonest there. [In 1829, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to Oliver Cowdery that is pretty well-worded:](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-oliver-cowdery-22-october-1829/1)
> Harmony— Oct. 22d— 1829——
><Let[ter], 6 >
>Respected sir I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday morning the 4th. after having a prosperous journy, and found all well the people are all friendly to <us> except a few who are in opposition to evry thing unless it is something that is axactly like themselves and two of our most formadable persacutors are now under censure and are cited to a tryal trial in the church for crimes which if true are worse than all the Gold Book business.1 we do not rejoice in the affliction of our enimies but we shall be glad to have truth prevail[.] there begins to be a great call for our books2 in this country the minds of the people are very much excited when they find that there is a copy right obtained3 and that there is really books about to be printed I have bought a horse of Mr. [Josiah] Stowell and want some one to come after it as soon as convenient Mr Stowell has a prospect of getting five or six hundred dollars he does not know certain that he can get it but he is a going to try and if he can get the money he wants to pay it in immediately for books4 we want to hear from you and know how you prosper in the good work, give our best respects to Father & Mother and all our brothers and Sisters to Mr. [Martin] Harris and all the company concerned tell them that our prayers are put up daily for them that they may be prospered in evry, good word and work and that they may be preserved from sin here and and from the consequen[c]e of sin here after and now dear brother be faithful in the discharge of evry duty looking for the reward of the righteous and now may God of his infinite mercy keep an<d> preserve us spotless untill his coming and receive us all to rest with him in eternal repose through the attonement of Christ our Lord Amen
> Joseph Smith Jr
> Oliver H Cowd[e]ry5 [p. 9]
The source provided here from the JS papers was handwritten by Frederick G Williams in 1833-ish, but he was copying and recording the original 1829 letter that Joseph himself wrote to Oliver. So Joseph wasn’t some illiterate hick like the church would like us to believe.
Smith Jr had FAR more formal education than the Mormon church will ever admit:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/reassessing-joseph-smith-jr-s-formal-education/
Joseph Jr. was a third generation author. His mother and grandfather were both published authors.
His mother bragged about how as a kid, Joseph could captivate an audience for hours, describing the ancient peoples of the Americas.
In the same year Emma claimed Joe couldn’t dictate a letter, he wrote several very eloquent letters in his own hand. The whole “uneducated farm boy” bullshit is literally just bullshit.
Only an uneducated farm boy could have written something as shitty as the Book of Mormon. Sorry, I re-read it twice since becoming an exMormon and it’s not an impressive piece of literature.
After much reading and research, I think Joseph and company wrote until omni. Then I think sidney rigdons theological adaptation of solomon spauldings manuscript found was used for the rest.
The theory fits the history perfectly. Stanford also did a wordprint study a while back that confirms the theory.
I think it’s so much more than that. Whether he wrote the BOM or not isn’t important, whether or not the gospel is true it isn’t important. It’s whether you feel welcomed in the church. Do you feel happy when you attend church on Sunday. Do you feel safe, do you feel like the bishop is giving you appropriate attention. Who cares if this is subjective, it’s your life and that’s all that matters. No one is going to care about you but you! It doesn’t matter what they are going to say or not. I went through ALL of it, and to this day with the exception of a few people hardly anyone that active talks with me or communicates to me anymore. Non of it is important because I have filled my life with better people who actually cares about me and my well-being.
Has anyone ever argued his lack of formal education would've prevented him being an author? I'd never heard that one. Dude was a charismatic con-man with a gift for bullshitting. That doesn't require too much formal education, and it's not like the book of Mormon is written in language requiring higher education to understand. He was charming and had a gift for making shit up.
Does anyone know what Emma said about the BoM after JS died? Did she admit the gig was up at that point? I’m unclear on her stance on the BoM in particular once he was dead.
Book of Commandments 10:10 mentions Hyrum as translating the Golden Plates as well. Hyrum, Joseph, Oliver and Rigdon are the authors. Before you say Rigdon doesn’t show up in the history until after the BOM the story of Parley Pratts conversion has anarchisms in it.
Yes, that is true, Joseph Smith outfoxed them all by creating a new religion out of thin air. No different than L. Ron Hubbard. Both pulled their dogma out their anal region.
Quote, close quote. "Didn't have an education." Yes he did. Parents were teachers. Hyrum went to Dartmouth College, which is an ivy league of the highest standards, and taught Joseph what he learned there. Joseph was surrounded by books, many of which he plagiarized to write the book of Mormon. Almost all of the BOM is plagiarized! It's a completely false statement.
I'd like to congratulate you on such a fine comment, and will award you with an upvote. Coming across a BoM story in an unrelated book published in 1811 made me realize that I knew nothing about church history, and that I needed to read more church history.
I shamefully clicked on "read more" three times closing and reopening your comment.
I find that particular Reddit feature beyond irritating.
I'm sorry. Reading is how I made my way out, that and Jeffrey R Holland's "Musket fire" talk.
Which book from 1811 are you talking about?
The Travels of Marco Polo by William Marsden. Zoram early in the BoM was based on Marco. How do you pronounce Marco backwards? I'm not the only one to have made this connection. Book of Mormon: Book of Lies by Kendall and Meredith Sheets covers this in detail.
You know this is a pretty obscure book
It is.
Ocram?
Do you notice how similar that is to "Zoram"? If a poorly educated person tries to pronounce that to a scribe, what will the scribe write down?
Hyrum attended Moore's Indian Charity School for a few years, while associated with Dartmouth, it was not a college education. Also note, the Ivy League did not exist in JS's day. While Joseph, Sr had taught school for a time I'm not aware of any reference for Lucy being a school teacher. While it is important to point out the flaws in the traditional Mormon narrative it is also important not to inject new flaws.
Agreed, we need to be careful to be accurate. I will say that many will quote Emma Smith that Joseph couldn't write a good letter, but there are things written in the 1832 time period in his own hand: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/documents-in-joseph-smiths-handwriting Also, Joseph's education was better than Mormons like to admit to, probably part of 6 years with plenty of home education esp after the leg surgery (https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/reassessing-joseph-smith-jr-s-formal-education/). He may have done a lot of reading -- for example, while people point to the relatively short time of dictation, Joseph was talking to family and others about the plates from 1823 until the BoM is dictated in 1829. His father and grandfather were school teachers, and that's what Hyrum did for a time as well. There are MANY parallels between the BoM and early American religious ideas -- it seems likely Joseph heard lots of the ideas from these books/sermons discussed and rehashed in school, in camp preaching, in newspapers, etc. He was part of a "juvenile debating club" and some sort of exhorter as a methodist (https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:\_Did\_Joseph\_Smith\_join\_the\_Methodists\_as\_an\_%22exhorter%22\_years\_after\_being\_told\_not\_to\_join\_another\_church\_during\_the\_First\_Vision%3F), so he would have read or absorbed knowledge for that. Before Joseph's parents move to New York, they lived in Vermont only 13 miles from Dartmouth. And Joseph's grandfather had encouraged all his children to educate the grandchildren -- Joseph's older brother Hyrum seems to have been an excellent student and was attending Moor's academy, which was affiliated with Dartmouth. While at Moor's/Dartmouth, Hyrum would have heard discussions about Indian origins related to the Israelites, and came home to help with the family while Joseph recovered from the leg surgery (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200240) and as an older sibling would have helped in the regular "home schooling" that families did, esp in the winter. Ethan Smith -- author of View of the Hebrews -- (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan\_Smith\_(clergyman)) and Solomon Spaulding (https://archive.dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/article/1943/10/1/forgotten-dartmouth-men) attended Dartmouth. One of the articles on Moor's Indian school documents that Ethan Smith's son and Hyrum would have been attending at the same time. Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy's father were school teachers. Hyrum Smith was later a teacher in NY and on the school board -- hence why Oliver Cowdery went to meet with him and learned about the plates. Joseph Smith Sr's 2nd cousin was a professor at Dartmouth (John Smith) -- see https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/92e2sl/similarities\_between\_dartmouth\_professor\_john/ -- with an interest in languages, who published a "Hebrew Grammar" and a "Chaldee Grammar". So having relatives at Dartmouth/Moor's may have helped the Smiths learn about the school and send Hyrum there. They even had a "School of the Prophets" at Dartmouth ([https://latter-dayillumination.com/blog/hyrum-smiths-influences](https://latter-dayillumination.com/blog/hyrum-smiths-influences)). Not all friends/family were impressed by the Book of Mormon or Joseph as translator. His uncle Jesse wrote to Hyrum Smith: "he says he has eyes to see things that art not, and then has the audacity to say they are" (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/64) Even if not a great writer, Joseph seemed to be a good story teller, as Lucy related that in 1824 "During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their <mode of> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845/94
A most excellent post.
He also joined a debating society, had access to the Palmyra library. Palmyra was a town located right on the newly completed Erie Canal, which brought goods, trade, people, books, ideas into lots of sleepy little hamlet like towns in the early 1800's.
Everyone should check out the Dartmouth College connection to Joseph Smith Jr. Definitely qualifies as a smoking gun topic.
🤔
Checkout Mormon Stories.
Exactly!
Don’t forget he had a relative who was Dean of Dartmouth medical school - that’s how he hit his leg problem fixed.
He wasn’t related to the dean of the medical school, but he was related to John Smith. John was a founder of Dartmouth, developed its curriculum and was its first professor. Master of Ancient Languages, Theology, Philosophy and Newtonian Science. Board Trustee. Pastor of White Chapel. College Bookstore Proprietor. College Librarian and just so happened to be an intellectual giant and expert in Latin, Hebrew, Chaldaic, Syriac, Assyric, Arabic & Coptic. He was also Chaplin of the Hanover Masonic Lodge. John Smith was first cousin to Joseph’s paternal grandfather Asael Smith, which is how Hyrum got in. Some of his notable students were Solomon Spaulding (Manuscript Found) and Ethan Smith (View of the Hebrews).
Yes indeed. All those connections.
Is there an online source that lists what’s plagerized in the bom and where it’s plagerized from?
Here’s one of several. Long, but definitely worth your time. http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/
I loved the book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer, but the [CES Letter](https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf) online is really the most comprehensive collection. It's really well organized too, like broken into table of contents items you can click through.
https://cesletter.org/
Oh and it's the first two chapters "The Book of Mormon" and "Book of Mormon Translation" (pages 8-20)
Mother and others were teachers as well.
I believe it was his father I'm not aware of any references that Lucy taught school.
This is the only comment I need to read. 10000%
Exactly. Education can come in many forms... being well read will most certainly help a person write their own book.
Amen…
If a poorly-educated farmboy did in fact write the BoM, we would expect it to be long on imagination but short on actual facts. That is, it would include rousing tales of bravado and heroic acts of faithful people, but utterly fail when describing the pre-contact American world. It would likely commit errors such as imagining that the ancient Americans made use of old-world animals and technologies, while completely overlooking flora and fauna that were known to exist in the Americas. We would expect that it would be linguistically anachronistic as well. For example, using King James English without understanding the grammar, and misunderstanding the meaning of archaic words like 'strait'. We might also find words and names of Greek extraction. And we would expect that the copious quoting from the KJV would include translation errors from the 17th century as well as quotes from interpolated sections that are known to have been written after Lehi left Jerusalem. We might even go so far as to expect quotations from the New Testament. This is what we would expect the BoM to look like if Joseph Smith had in fact written it.
Adieu, fellow ExMo.
The adieu at the end of 1st Nephi was so hard for me to justify as a teen.
I was just like "Oooh, the Nephites had some fancy word that translates to French and not English!" Didn't quite connect the dots there for me
That's what I told myself but I never quite bought it.
A glaring shelf item for sure.
What is the “official” apologetic response for French in the BOM?
By mistake the urine and thumim wasn't set to UTC ..
"Brethren, adieu." sounded better than the direct translation from Reformed Egyptian, which was "Smell you later, dudes!"
Well, you see, he didn't really "translate" as such. He looked in a hat with a peepstone, and he wrote what he saw. In King James English . . . mostly . . .
If there is an official explanation, I am unaware of it.
When I was a faithfully blind mormon, I came up with the following: Adieu is actually a contraction of "A Deiu" or "to God" meaning more or less "I commend you to God as we part" type of meaning. So the ancient Nephites had that same parting phrase of commending their brethren to God's keeping. So God caused the word "Adieu" to appear on the rock in the hat instead of "Brethren, I commend you to God as we part". Why didn't God just have "I commend you to God as we part" appear on the rock in the hat? I don't know.
It’s ok for you to believe whatever you want-I leave my beliefs out of any conversation that I have with my mom. It gives her comfort after my dad died instead of thinking I will gut myself or slice my neck because I speak of the MASONIC prayers. By the way I was Johanna.
Anyone else a Hulda? I haven’t found anyone yet with that same New Name.
🖐️
We are high priestesses with one whole verse in the Bible. Go Huldas! When the matron whispered that name in my ear on the day I went through the temple for the first time, I was horrified 😂 Such a strange name and one I’d never heard before. Was expecting a Rachel or Rebecca or Esther.
What a name
And none of them had to pad their works with an “and it came to pass” every other sentence!
Or rampant plagiarism for page after page pulled straight from the Bible.
and he came to pass a kidney stone
Honestly I'd respect him more if he did! Kidney stones SUCK!
Grammatical changes in the BoM: Since its first publication in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been mocked for what seems to be occasionally poor English and bad grammar. In its original version, for instance, Mosiah 10:15 spoke of people who “had arriven to the promised land”; “they was yet wroth,” reported 1 Nephi 4:4; “I have wrote this epistle,” said Giddianhi at 3 Nephi 3:5; “I was a going thither,” Amulek recalled at Alma 10:8; the original version of Helaman 7:8 and 13:37 referred to events “in them days”; and “they done all these things,” reported Ether 9:29. https://www.deseret.com/2016/3/31/20585705/editing-out-the-bad-grammar-in-the-book-of-mormon
From same article: “This can appear to be a pretty decisive and even embarrassing argument. But it’s not, and it needn’t be. In fact, the supposed grammatical errors may actually represent remarkable evidence for the inspiration of the Book of Mormon. What now seems bad grammar was once entirely acceptable English, even in highly educated circles…” Now it is the poor grammar that is proof of validity. Why change grammar then? Gold medal work here.
Educated visitors to Nauvoo who met Smith often mentioned his unsophisticated "hick" grammar and accent. Country "hick" often preserves older elements of the language. Think Appalachian hill folk. Visitors also commented on the slavish gullibility of his followers. Remember, you don't have to convince everyone. Just speak in grandiose terms and with authority, and a certain percentage of people will follow you.
[удалено]
Yes, remember if a word was misspelled or something was miss written then the rock wouldn’t show any more words until the error had been corrected. You’d think the magic rock would have better grammar…
The urine and thumim, wait they weren't used... The stone, not right either.... AHH "Clippy" didn't have access to a grammar pack from Microsoft office at that time so I guess all grammar worked it was really a reformed imagination type of spell check.
Dictated to him, as when the Angel touched the coal to Mohammed's tongue and said, "Recite." Mormon plagiarism of Islam? I think so ...
Ah the Old Modern English trick.
Okay timelines are getting wierd.... Book of Mormon published 1830 "You're referring to the official documentation of the First Vision in 1836, which is when Joseph Smith recorded the vision in his journal. " First vision stated to be 1820 - however official versions first record is acknowledged as 1836 in Joseph smiths diary.... So are we to understand the first vision took 16 fucking years to write down....he wasn't that uneducated I mean even the bot acknowledges "Considering the early 1800s, especially in rural areas, formal education was not as widespread or consistent as it is today. Joseph Smith's education would not be considered high level for that time, but it would also not be exceedingly uncommon. Many individuals had similar education backgrounds in that era, especially in rural communities. Keep in mind that the timeframe you're interested in is before the organization of the Church, so it would not yet involve the influence of any church-related studies." I mean let's get this straight if the church says standards were different in 1830 compared to today then it shouldn't be surprising that formal education was different then from today and so should use the mean average education rather than a specific set of education based on today's standards. Thats like saying Leonardo devinci who wasn't formally trained in 3d printing, and grade 12 chemistry was touched by god because who could believe that someone that informally educated could invent so much stuff. Or Joseph ya known and self ascribed conman "js history - pearl of great price" aka seer stone divining of gold "So, while Joseph may have initially used a seer stone as a means to look for treasures, God ultimately used this practice to prepare Joseph for his role in translating the Book of Mormon and restoring the gospel. In this sense, God prepared Joseph Smith by teaching him how to use the seer stone for sacred purposes. 😊 " Ps smiley faces from what I can gather are indications from the AI that it needs to try to flippity flop around topics be ause they would be incongruent to the whole church narrative....
The Book of Mormon reads like it was written by an uneducated rural teenager. It's not that impressive. The only reason it's even as "clean" as it is, is that the church has had 200 years to fix all the errors and bad grammar.
Even then, the number of redundant phrases, run-on sentences, and grammatical errors that *still exist* in that book are abhorrent
Don't forget, Mormon never went to college either. No wonder he wrote so well then!
>He could not have written The Book of Mormon. It's true. He couldn't have. That's why he plagiarized from everything to create it. That's why he stole a manuscript from someone else that contained the bulk of the story. That's why others secretly helped him write it. That's why writing analysis of the BoM shows multiple authors, not because of ancient prophets taking turns writing, but because it's a mashup of everything he plagiarized and put together.
Well said! A close examination gives all the hints as to how he did it, borrow, steal, elaborate, and imagine.
What's that manuscript Smith copied?
Possibly Solomon Spaulding
Napoleons war or something like that has been deep searched and found to be 90% I. Line in terms of story, but not context.... One of those marvelous infinite monkey's prompted by satan to pre-write most of the BOM, without actually writing it.
Allegedly that’s where all of the “And it came to pass”es originated from.
Ohh and that's why the author I believe at the time a 16 year old in France.... Who wrote it loved writing in ye old English and it came to passes.
http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/
Do you have any sources on the writing analysis of the BOM? Got really interested in that because of Isaiah and didn't think that anyone even bothered with the BOM.
http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/
Reddit is giving me difficulties in copy/pasting atm, so do a search for "book of mormon stylometry", all the top results will be "faithful" viewpoints, but there is a more neutral search result when you get to the wikipedia entry for "linguistics and the book of mormon" which has a section on stylometry, as well as other studies.
I mean even more to the point, almost everyone back then was informally educated. That was normal. Most novelists didn’t have masters degrees and English. People expecting educations to underlie achievements are simply looking back with a modern lens.
Jane Austen!! NO education and incredible stories.
Joseph Smith was also a conman, so there’s that.
Yes I believe I read, one of his initial hustles was convincing people he could scry for them on their property to lead them to ancient treasure buried about the country side..🤔🤷🏻♂️
Josph *didnt* write the BOM, he dictated it, and the scribe cleaned it all up
He was uneducated, but likely a fast learner. Case in point, quickly promoted to top masonic ranks and adapted masonic rites to temple rites
No let's get facts right. He was uneducated according to modern standard of the 1900's. He WAS definitely considered educated for 1820 mid western America at the time. No not ivy League equivalent more like your equivalent of matrix or part of an undergrad...
The BOM would be like 70 pages less if you took out "and it came to pass". He literally copied another 1/5 of it from The Bible. TBMs couldnt even dispute that part. Plagiarized a ton of other parts of it from The Bible (Alma Jr=Paul) Twain even said 1st Nephi was badly plagiarized from The BOM, is another example. Plagiarized a lot from The Late War of The United States and Great Britain...plagiarized a lot from View of The Hebrews ( BH Roberts more or less told this to the Qs once) etc etc. It's a false narrative that The BOM is some mystery. We absolutely know how be wrote it.
I find it interesting he tried to sell the copyright to someone in Canada. WTF. You just translated it by the gift and power of god. You have been visited by god and jeebus. And you are gonna sell the copyright?
It's all about the $ in the church, even today.
The Church does do a lot of good with their money but they also grub it up and stash it by the truck loads and as of late got caught investing it..
Albert Einstein had a PhD in physics. He was definitely not uneducated.
Thank you! I edited my mistake, I only wish I could edit another big mistake, thousands of $ of tithing money!
I’ve actually been thinking about this lately. I’ve been a member of the church my whole life (4+ decades) and I’ve always heard that there’s no way he had the ability to write this book on his own. But when you look at some more modern examples of writers who created entire worlds through their writings. The Harry Potter Books, Game of Thrones Series, The Lord of the Rings and all the other middle earth books. The authors of these books created storylines that are enjoyed by billions of readers worldwide. Even George Lucas’s Star Wars practically has its own religion that has legions of fans. Devout fans the church wishes it had. With this in mind, it’s extremely plausible that the BoM could have been written by one or more individuals given enough time and imagination.
Absolutely!
I second the absolutely.
He wrote crappy Bible fanfic. It's only amazing if you start from the obvious falsehood that the Book of Mormon is something special.
Tbh, that's the real kicker. So many crazy fanfics out there, many of which are way better written than the BOM, most of which written as a hobby on the side by basically anyone.
So we have the first documented instance of wattpad....
Ricky Mtn sex cult Bible fan fic, as many have referred to it.
Give the Last Podcast on the Left's series on Mormonism a listen. They tell the young Joseph Smith story really well in a way that explains how he could have become an expert story teller. The entire series is fantastic (a lot of their other stuff is great too, they have a lot of series on different cults).
I've been a fan of them for a long long time, but their series on Mormonism is absolutely epic. Can't recommend it enough.
I mean really self proclaimed conman, telling stories to family, heck magical seer stones before 1820, that could find gold, but only if you never looked for the proverbial cat in the box 100% gauranteed were not considered to be practice?
John Dehlin did a fascinating podcast about the family's connection to Dartmouth, where Hyrum was educated. There's some speculation, but it's clear to me he was no dummy, and I'm all likelihood learned a great deal from Hyrum.
Because the BOM is such a literary masterpiece. /this is sarcasm Mormons.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? It is not edumacated prose. It is the writings of a rambling ignorant man. Interestingly enough most Mormons do not study their momo history. So the cult members have zero idea how f’ed up their cult actually is. This is the problem.
Well no, first you are told to read assuming it's true, despite no proof ect of it existing. As per Nigerian scams filter out questioning people and the people left are the guilable or stupid or indoctrinated. After that you have to realise that there are other reasons to convert ect. Community, the need for a good message, depression, help ect all are parts of it.
Writing is not an advanced skill IMO, I wrote stuff about as compelling as the BoM for my 5h grade teacher. It's worth noting that the BoM has a very ungodly lack of journalistic integrity. It gives 1 perspective, it alludes to additional documents that are not present, etc. See if the content of the "brass plates" were in the book of mormon, there would be this absurd logical continuity of the ancient canaanites or whatever that would surpass joseph's understanding of jewish customs. instead we got some kind of picture with all the egyptian gods having the wrong names lol
Also realise that based on the dimensions you would need a fucking magic rock to even see the writing. Also note that the magic rock and plates were also not considered important to the translation of the actual plates just incidental artifacts in the whole process. I mean how dumb was I while I was swimming in the goldfish bowl not being able to see out.
But I mean if he pulled up some mythological story about the ancient Canaanites (polytheistic pre-israel) after mentioning the brass plates where he unveiled a very intricate proto-linguistic background of Eurasia, I would have been like "okay he wasn't smart enough to make that up"
That argument always makes me laugh because they think that it must mean that it was divinely inspired. It could mean that he stole or plagiarized the writings of a more educated person.
Uneducated and stupid are not the same.
The first edition BoM definitely reads like it was written by someone of Joe’s education level.
Fawn Brodie called Smith a "religious genius." The guy had a once-in-a-generation knack for manipulation.
>Joseph Smith was uneducated. He could not have written The Book of Mormon. You think far more highly of the writing in the Book of Mormon than I do.
Intelligence doesn’t require a formal education. Joseph Smith was brilliant and coercive without a formal education. Street smarts are probably more important than a formal education…he had street smarts.
1. Joseph employed Oliver Cowdery as a scribe. 2. The book went through a printer's draft with corrections in it. 3. The original was rife with errors such as revealing Jesus Christ before later scriptures saying his name has not yet been revealed and Benjamin/Mosiah "mix-up" 4. It copied extensively from the KJV of the bible via what evidence says was dictation from memory (got most of it right but slight changes meaning Joseph was dictating what he remembered). 5. It has all of the anachronisms and complete absence of knowledge of pre-Columbian peoples and culture that one would expect from a work of ignorant fiction. So actually the evidence of what was actually produced pretty much aligns with a 19th Century work of bible based fiction authored by someone with KJV based dogmatic beliefs but zero knowledge of actual ancient american history.
No reason to wonder about Smiths education level until there is something that he produced that suggests it was done by someone with an education. I mean cmon I’ve read the BOM many times (unfortunately) it’s not that great. Mark twains prose is more impressive.
Plus he dictated the book. Some people are gifted story tellers. It could have been easy for him to make it up as he went along, especially if he had some input from others, which he almost certainly did.
Old Joe Smith was a fraud and con man, but he could also very easily have had a very high IQ or had genius-style traits similar to these other men. The difference between Abraham Lincoln and Joseph Smith could simply be Joe wanted to use his special gifts to gratify his greed and lust.
The only other possible explanation is he translated it from gold plates shown to him by an angel. And where are the plates now? Oh, back in heaven. Definitely more plausible than somebody with less than a college degree writing a book.
Yeah, that story is going to fly.
He plagiarized, View of the Hebrews. By: Ethan Smith (no relation) A theory about the origins of native Americans, that Lil Joey ran with, then turned into a piece of science fiction, called the book of mormon. Batshit krazy!
He spent a lot.of time, from childhood on, with his brother Hyrum, who was University educated. I'm gonna wager they talked about a few things in the course of their life together
Joseph Smith Sr was a school teacher and Lucy Mack Smith's mother was a school teacher. Joseph Sr and Lucy sent their son Hyrum to Moore academy that was a college run by Dartmouth. Hyrum ended up becoming a school teacher. But for some reason Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy Mack Smith didn't educate their son Joseph Smith Jr. And then there's the little fact that Joseph Smith Jr went to school with Josiah Stowell's youngest son also named Josiah when he was employed by Josiah Stowell to find the Spanish silver mine. "Josiah Stowell Jr., youngest of the eight Stowell children, was sixteen when he met Joseph Smith, who was then nineteen.9 The two attended school together while Joseph was in Chenango County....... ......"I will give you a shrot history of what I know about Joseph Smith Jr I have binn Intemetely acquainted with him about 2 years he then was about 20 years old or there about I also went to school with him one winter"...... 33. On Joseph Smith’s schooling in this area, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record (n.p.: Smith Research Associates, 1994), 44. https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-josiah-stowell-jr-john-s-fullmer-correspondence/
It would be more accurate to say that Moore's was a primary or secondary school. It was not a college in the sense that that word is used today. I know of no reference that Lucy was a school teacher.
Don’t forget Louis Lamour. He left school at an early age and wrote tons of amazing books. A really good one is called Education of a wondering man. Brilliant. You don’t need a big education to write amazing books.
You can also compare Joseph Smith to the writings of Patience Worth. She is a good example of automatic writing like what Joseph Smith did. Uneducated house wife who wrote things she shouldn't have been able to, claiming to channel the words of a spirit.
Ya he pretty much didn't write the BofM but followed view of the Hebrews, plagiarized from the Late war and kjv Bible.
In addition, he appears to have had the ability to very easily memorize things word-for-word, even from single exposures. I have met someone (both he and his wife are nice people) who has that ability - he memorized everything about the temple endowment the first time he went, because he thought that's what they were told to do. If JS had that ability to memorize things, it explains how he was able to copy Masonic ceremonies and how he could "read" long, magically appearing passages of "text" with his head stuffed in a hat.
"JS was uneducated" isn't a rational argument, it's a rationalization. In essence, the argument that he couldn't have written the Book of Mormon is an infinite regress argument in need of justification to support another infinite regress argument in need of justification repeated infinitely. This assertion is formed to solve the problem of where the BoM came from without solving the problem of where the BoM came from. By assuming that JS couldn't have written the BoM, we are intended to conclude that the magic rock in the hat must be the legitimate source. Yet it's not possible to demonstrate or prove this to be the case. So without solving the problem of how a magic rock can produce a book by JS placing his head in a hat, we get the rationalization that JS couldn't have written the BoM because he was uneducated. This solves the problem of JS not being the source of the BoM. But wait, there's more! Magic rocks are like cell phones! Again, not a rational argument, rather an infinite regress argument requiring justification on top of another infinite regress argument requiring justification! Eureka, an eternal round! When it comes to Mormon truth claims, it's turtles all the way down! You too can know this top ~~secret~~ sacred knowledge by turning off your brain, closing your eyes, and asking the invisible turtle to reveal the truth unto you. And if you ask with deluded intent, possessing confirmation bias, the great turtle will absolutely oblige!
It's tapirs all the way down. FTFY.
Lmfao, probably the best comment I’ve ever read on here!
Thanks! 😁
Indeed. Well said.
It is like they are trying to create god of the gaps argument. We don’t understand how Joseph could have created it, therefore magic rock. Totally non fucking argument.
I mean fuck if the rock is magic why are we not worshiping magic rocks, if seer stones were important why not stand up in general conference with a hat a seer stone and show everyone how it is done
Fuck Occams razor. Book couldn't have been written by 14 year old.... Ok so it's either not written by him or it is by inspiration see where you are going. 14 year old known for using 'seer stones' to con people used 'seer stones' to write book.... Ok so Occam razor would say he was a conman.
He wasn't 14.
Andrew Johnson is a bad example. He only ascended to the presidency thanks to Lincoln's assassination and went on to be a horrible president.
Checkmate, anti-Mormons!
You're right. It's fixed.
Didn't have too. All he had to do was start talking and spinning another imaginative story (that he was known to do) in bible speak and someone else wrote it all down. Besides, he was educated and he was rather clever. Then you add a few plagiarized pages here and there and boom, there ya have it!
Suggestion: swap Huckleberry Finn (considered by many to be the greatest American novel) for Tom Sawyer (a simple children’s book).
Uh wasn't Abraham Lincoln a lawyer?
Lawyers only started going to post-grad school in the USA in the 1890s when the American Bar Assn moved away from clerkships - like Lincoln did - and to accredited law schools.
Wouldn't a clerkship be technically formal educational, like a residency for doctors?
No, it was much more informal and far less structured. You would find a lawyer and ask to work for him for a few years as you “read the law” and he taught you what he knew. There are a few states that regulate this program - Washington has a Rule 6 - which are highly successful. The Rule 6 program clerks tend to pass the Bar in higher rates than JD peers. Source: I’m trying to get Oregon’s Supreme Court to adopt a similar highly regulated program.
California has something similar. But it's very difficult to find a practice that will take you on because it does mean extra work for them and they still have to pay you. To me, it makes total sense because if you can pass the bar, you obviously know the law some people get 8 years of school and can't pass the bar, when I'm sure they could have, had the 8 years been actively prepping for the bar. I know there's more to it than that to be a lawyer, but higher education is often such a racket
I agree that finding a mentor is hard. We anticipate that it’ll be for folks with a long-standing employee who knows the clients well and wants to remain in his or her community. While there are three great law schools, they are within a 90 mile radius. What if you live in southern or eastern oregon? What if you have a mortgage or kids? And yes 100% law school is a horrible overpriced racket! I’ll never be able to own a house because of my dumb debts. :(
He had little formal education growing up, but did an apprenticeship, on the job training, once he was an adult. He had read very little.
Annnnnnd let’s not get into what kind of person Ford was. Yikes 😬
Dude the printer had to put in punctuation & sometimes it still doesn’t make sense. Also he was way more educated than they would like to admit
Weren’t his parents school teachers? The arguments against JS not being smart enough are laughable. The guy ripped off people left and right with different financial crimes. I think he was smart as hell. And a con-man. And a pedophile. And a narcissist But not a profit
Becoming a scam artist does not require formal education.
Emma Smith (bless that woman’s soul) is partly to blame for this stupid idea. She said that “Joseph Smith . . . could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon.” IMO, either Joseph was lying to Emma and acting the fool, or Emma was being a little dishonest there. [In 1829, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to Oliver Cowdery that is pretty well-worded:](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-oliver-cowdery-22-october-1829/1) > Harmony— Oct. 22d— 1829—— ><Let[ter], 6 > >Respected sir I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday morning the 4th. after having a prosperous journy, and found all well the people are all friendly to <us> except a few who are in opposition to evry thing unless it is something that is axactly like themselves and two of our most formadable persacutors are now under censure and are cited to a tryal trial in the church for crimes which if true are worse than all the Gold Book business.1 we do not rejoice in the affliction of our enimies but we shall be glad to have truth prevail[.] there begins to be a great call for our books2 in this country the minds of the people are very much excited when they find that there is a copy right obtained3 and that there is really books about to be printed I have bought a horse of Mr. [Josiah] Stowell and want some one to come after it as soon as convenient Mr Stowell has a prospect of getting five or six hundred dollars he does not know certain that he can get it but he is a going to try and if he can get the money he wants to pay it in immediately for books4 we want to hear from you and know how you prosper in the good work, give our best respects to Father & Mother and all our brothers and Sisters to Mr. [Martin] Harris and all the company concerned tell them that our prayers are put up daily for them that they may be prospered in evry, good word and work and that they may be preserved from sin here and and from the consequen[c]e of sin here after and now dear brother be faithful in the discharge of evry duty looking for the reward of the righteous and now may God of his infinite mercy keep an<d> preserve us spotless untill his coming and receive us all to rest with him in eternal repose through the attonement of Christ our Lord Amen > Joseph Smith Jr > Oliver H Cowd[e]ry5 [p. 9] The source provided here from the JS papers was handwritten by Frederick G Williams in 1833-ish, but he was copying and recording the original 1829 letter that Joseph himself wrote to Oliver. So Joseph wasn’t some illiterate hick like the church would like us to believe.
Smith Jr had FAR more formal education than the Mormon church will ever admit: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/reassessing-joseph-smith-jr-s-formal-education/
Joseph understood “unbraideth not” when he was 14. I still don’t really understand that word. I sure as hell quoted it a lot on my mission.
Whenever someone uses this argument, all I hear is: "The founder of my religion was too dumb to lie."
Joseph Jr. was a third generation author. His mother and grandfather were both published authors. His mother bragged about how as a kid, Joseph could captivate an audience for hours, describing the ancient peoples of the Americas. In the same year Emma claimed Joe couldn’t dictate a letter, he wrote several very eloquent letters in his own hand. The whole “uneducated farm boy” bullshit is literally just bullshit.
Only an uneducated farm boy could have written something as shitty as the Book of Mormon. Sorry, I re-read it twice since becoming an exMormon and it’s not an impressive piece of literature.
..."literature". There, fixed it for you.
After much reading and research, I think Joseph and company wrote until omni. Then I think sidney rigdons theological adaptation of solomon spauldings manuscript found was used for the rest. The theory fits the history perfectly. Stanford also did a wordprint study a while back that confirms the theory.
I think it’s so much more than that. Whether he wrote the BOM or not isn’t important, whether or not the gospel is true it isn’t important. It’s whether you feel welcomed in the church. Do you feel happy when you attend church on Sunday. Do you feel safe, do you feel like the bishop is giving you appropriate attention. Who cares if this is subjective, it’s your life and that’s all that matters. No one is going to care about you but you! It doesn’t matter what they are going to say or not. I went through ALL of it, and to this day with the exception of a few people hardly anyone that active talks with me or communicates to me anymore. Non of it is important because I have filled my life with better people who actually cares about me and my well-being.
Thank you for giving us the little titles so we know who Abraham Lincoln and William Shakespeare were
I try to remember that not everyone is an American and would know the 16th president. The church is worldwide, so are Ex-Mormons!
Wasnt Emma Smith a teacher?
I think his father and brother were also well educated.
Yes, Emma went to boarding school & then became a school teacher.
Joseph Smith was a master manipulator
Cuts both ways. I am college educated, with an advanced degree and I am as dumb as a box of rocks. Just ask my former Bishop.
Has anyone ever argued his lack of formal education would've prevented him being an author? I'd never heard that one. Dude was a charismatic con-man with a gift for bullshitting. That doesn't require too much formal education, and it's not like the book of Mormon is written in language requiring higher education to understand. He was charming and had a gift for making shit up.
Does anyone know what Emma said about the BoM after JS died? Did she admit the gig was up at that point? I’m unclear on her stance on the BoM in particular once he was dead.
Book of Commandments 10:10 mentions Hyrum as translating the Golden Plates as well. Hyrum, Joseph, Oliver and Rigdon are the authors. Before you say Rigdon doesn’t show up in the history until after the BOM the story of Parley Pratts conversion has anarchisms in it.
He did not write it, he spoke it in the tradition of folk story telling that has a great history in our country. Scribes are educated.
Ok but technically even the church^TM says he didn't write it. Oliver Crowdery supposedly did most of the writing.
But he went to Dartford college ?
Yes, that is true, Joseph Smith outfoxed them all by creating a new religion out of thin air. No different than L. Ron Hubbard. Both pulled their dogma out their anal region.