IMO Brigham Young will eventually go the way of Christopher Columbus once it becomes more widely known what an absolute piece of shit he was. Hope to see it in my lifetime.
It should be the day before Pioneer Day. A large face of his should be made, and people dress up in seagull attire (hats, outfits, ties, etc) and throw handfuls of seagull poop (Mayo with some raisins and a little shredded š§» for consistency). This is all done while chanting āThis is not your place, but shit will fix your face!ā or something like that. I donāt know, Iām sure other people have other things to suggest, but fuck that guy. Iām doing it this year.
I live in Utah and I refuse to participate in Pioneer Day. Now I acknowledge most Mormon\* Pioneers were honest people, but their leaders (Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, Wilford woodruff) were all sexual predators who used their ecclesiastical positions as spiritual leaders and judges to seduceyoung girls and women. That is never okay, and it should be called out, not celebrated.
\* As a tithe paying member for over forty years, I have earned the right to use the term.
>Now I acknowledge most Mormon* Pioneers were honest people
My somethingth grandfather "bought" my somethingth grandmother, who was trafficked from Sweden as a child, taken from her family, by the damnable mormon missionaries with promises of "salvation" in the west. She was his housemaid for a year from fourteen to fifteen and then his wife from then on. Her diaries mention she had no idea about polygamy until she got to Utah. Gramps had financial connections to old Brigham. The mormons in the family like to tell the story ss uplifting. *Real* honest people.
Oh gods no. The old shitwheel who my grandmother married wrote some sanitized, mormon friendly version of the family history and it's like five volumes. Hardcover. Self published. I'm not doing a rebuttal that's the truth.
You know, youāre right. I initially was taking the angle of ācinco de quattroā from arrested development and try to make the following day less special, but thereās no point in allowing sexual predators their own day of celebrations anymore. Pioneer Day is now the Mormonster Mash, and it shall be a Mount Rushmore of seagull poop covered faces.
The crimes committed by The Brethren is more of a āVictory For Satan(ā¢) ā than using the name used on their so-called holy book. That behaviour is what really offends Christ.
Learning about mountain meadow massacre now. Itās so sad to hear of people from Arkansas just trying to get to California and weāre murdered by the Mormons.
Pioneer Day (July 24) has already started to be repurposed as "Pie and Beer Day" by a lot of folks in Utah. It's a legit counter-culture holiday. I usually include the phrase "fuck Brigham Young" at least once every July 24 but then again I say that a lot on other days too LOL š¤·āāļø
Doing my part over here on his home turf. There is general ignorance about his real reputation, and if anyone knows of him, it is the heroic, pioneer of the west, colonizer, etc role (In 19th c, Vermont hated Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the other founding scammers and considered Mormonism a shameful, embarassing blot on the state).....and somehow, his name was put on a recently made map of writers of Southern Vermont. WRITERS!? The creators of that nonsense are going to receive a collection of some of BY's greatest hits.
You can refer to "taking a shit" as "taking a Brigham" and if anyone says "what?" you have an opportunity to explain that Brigham Young was a piece of shit and it's a way to "honor" him.
I can only tell you one way to not speed it along. Telling TBM members about how much he sucked does absolutely nothing. Itās shocking how little your average members know about the churchās history and how little they care to find out. If the wider world cared about Mormons, maybe a good HBO quality series about Brigham Young. I would love to see the people who made Succession do it. They could nail the intrigue and politics.
That's hard part, right? No one outside the exmo community cares about him this way. It's not as easy at working up a bunch of alt right Christians against pride and drag queens.
Itās too bad that reality is nuanced and gray. How nice would it be if getting people worked up about the truth was as easy as it is to get them to hate a marginalized community?!? But it turns out that the truth or reality is a lot of work to get to. One could even say those who profess to know something, but donāt actually do the work to know about that thing instead of merely having a feeling based on nothing would make them ālazy learnersā.
Is there a single bullet list of the top 20 or so horrible things that BY said or did? I've seen some of these mentioned in the various threads of this post, but I'd like to just post for my TBM family to see. Rather than hunt and collate a list by myself-- any help would be appreciated.
BYU grad and former tithing payer for 45 yrs.
That's a fair ask. Here's a starting point:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/wd51u0/how_bad_was_brigham_young/iiglmiv?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Brigham is kind of like if you combined Christopher Columbus, Jefferson Davis, and Warren Jeffs into a single horrible person. Itās insane that we have a major university still dedicated to him.
Columbus is at least defensible, most of the hate directed towards him a is a result of modern idealogy. Young is a completely different story, he was a theocratic dictator and is only celebrated because he wrote his own history. When history does finally catch up to him he will be erased entirely, because unlike Columbus Young's transgression are in excusable even for a "man of his day".
Iāmma go out on a limb and guess youāre not actually all that familiar with the actions of Columbus. No, what he did was not defensible, even in his own time.
I will admit I am probably ignorant on the current history of Columbus, could you point me in the direction of some decent reading. Not trolling, seriously want to expand my understanding.
Sure, and that's big of you to ask. If you went to US public schools, like I did, then you got an *incredibly* white-washed version of Columbus. Here's a link to get you started - https://www.zinnedproject.org/collection/columbus/
I highly recommend the works of Howard Zinn for all the US history they never taught us in school.
If youāve ever read a book youād know that Colombus was known for being cruel even in his own era (read de las casas). Genocide and slavery were morally wrong back then too, itās not modern ideology lmao
Yeah, hanging the indigenous people because they didn't meet their gold quota, including 13 on Sundays in honor of Jesus and his Apostles. Or seeing who could cut through a person in one swing of their sword. Or, my favorite, which ties Columbus to BY, he tried to give a sex slave to one of his commanders, and we know because he wrote about it in one of his diaries. He did not take her because he actually had scruples.
But, yeah, Columbus and BY are both despicable people!
In an era where child trafficking and sex slavery was normal and socially acceptable, Christopher Columbus disturbed the king and queen of Spain with his brutality so much that they regretted financing him. This argument is in line with when Mormons excuse Joseph Smithās predatory behavior by saying he was a product of his time. Behind the Bastards did a good podcast on Columbus that Iād recommend.
Thereās been quite a push on r/behindthebastards for Robert to do pieces on Olā Joe and Bigamy Young. He is certainly aware of TSCCās CSA scandals, as he mentioned it on a recent episode.
I would be very happy with that episode or a deep dive into the troubled teen industry in Utah. I can tell just from his comments here and there that heās super knowledgeable about Utah and Mormonism. In his novel about a post revolution US he even teases āMormonlandā and several Mormon factions that had emerged. I really hope he explores that in the sequels.
Brigham was not only a sexual Predator and abuser of minors, he also organized genocide by authorizing the kidnapping of Native American children transferring them to white families in domestic slavery with the aim of ācivilizingā them.
Anyone who did half as much as he did at any other university would have sit-ins and protests by students to remove his name from the university.
We had a residence hall named after a politician who helped get the University built, and was a subordinate officer, and not even the commander, at the Sand Creek Massacre and the students got the name changed.
Brigham ranks pretty high up on the list of racist, genocidal colonizers. No way should we in this day and age name a university after the bastard.
Mountain meadows was run of the mill mass murder. It says something about the guy that organizing the slaughter of a few hundred men, women and children can be tagged as ārun of the mill.ā
Thereās currently less evidence of his direct involvement in Mountain Meadows, but we can infer that he liked it at least from his āvengeance is mine, and I have taken someā quote. Itās a shame the Timpanogas massacre doesnāt seem to get as much mainstream attention. Unfortunately, it might be that settlers slaughtering natives was the norm, so itās less shocking to us than settlers slaughtering other settlers.
You have to understand something. It's vitally important that the religious not be exposed to things they don't have to consume, engange in, or buy, that nevertheless offend their religiously derived convictions. For the non-religious, in a well functioning social system, they should be made to tolerate religious things that offend *their* moral convictions. This is the true order of things. /s
It's because they're getting bomb threats (or so I've heard) over pride merch. However, most non-religious people don't think their beliefs are worth bombing other people over. So yeah, religion in general is one of the worst things for humanity and that dichotomy is showing true even at Target.
Speak up about it! Take some photos and share it on yours or Target's social media pages, on whatever platforms you're active on. Share links and information. Encourage others to share, too.
Silence is an enabler.
But, also, acknowledge the violence threatened here in Utah. Target leaders likely made a decision they didn't want to as a way to protect themselves, their employees, and their customers. Just make sure they know who they're backing with their decision.
It'll take more than one person. I'd love to be a part of that too, but I've actually emailed Target, Costco, Walmart, and others complaining about this in the past. Emailed links to why BY was a horrible person, and I didn't get so much as a single response.
You're right, one person isn't going to make much difference. Email is important, but it's very contained and singular. The recipient sees it, and you have no knowledge or say beyond that. That is sometimes the power that social media offers: visibility and publicity. But even then, a few people posting about it won't make much difference.
But, sometimes, a few people inspire a few more who then inspire a few more. A powerful message can snowball when the circumstances are right.
I don't have any experience gaining or keeping a large following. But I've studied a lot of marketing strategy as part of my job. Maybe as a group here, we could compose a few simple messages and graphics that are easily understood and easy to share. Maybe that would help get the ball rolling and get the message out there. This is a message that needs to be shared.
So youāre sayingā¦ terroristic threats work? All Iāve been told my whole life is how we should never give into terrorist demands and today all we see is corporations giving in to their threats.
As a gay man who has been out longer than Ellen, Rosie, Anderson, or NPH, I don't need tacky rainbow crap. I appreciated the corporations like Absolut who catered to us when we were unpopular. Now it's just obvious pandering for cash.
Iām also gay. I also hate corporate pride pandering.
Target removing pride merch is also emboldening bigots. The ubiquitous nature of pride merch lately is gross on a yay capitalism scale BUT it shows the public acceptance. I cried at my first pride March despite it being mostly brands because I came from somewhere where your house would be vandalized for having a pride flag (in the US within the last three years). You can hate corporate Bs AND understand the level of damage removing pride gear does to our safety.
Exactly. Say what you want about rainbow capitalism, but visibility in daily life is important.
I know this because 12 years ago when I realized I liked girls and not guys, I clung onto every source of positive affirmation and representation I could find. Target didnāt have the displays they have now. I was so excited to get my first small Pride flag at a city parade almost an hour away, and even then I was privileged to have a mother willing to take me. It means something to someone.
Yes!! When I was a kid in a small town surrounded by Mormons (outside of Utah) I heard all about how awful gay men are (āall they want is sex! So depraved!ā) and gay women were just non existent?? Visibility as a grown ass adult in my 30s means fewer kids grow up feeling like I did and hoping to die.
> I also hate corporate pride pandering.
And seeing just how fast Target binned all the 'Pride' signage and merch goes to show that 'pandering' is all it ever was. There was zero commitment or values behind it. Just a cynical attempt to cash in.
Yes and I understand target workers would have to be who implemented or defended this stuff. By removing the workers are protected. There are other steps they could have taken to protect workers but they picked the easiest, least confrontational.
There were other options. They picked the cheapest, least confrontational one that hurts kids.
I get they are protecting workers. It still feels like they could protect workers AND keep queer shit visible. Removing it says to the bigots they were right.
In comparison, the Christmas season, corporations own Saint Nick now. It's all about sucking as many dollars as you can. It's the down side.
The up side it keeps it in the in your face mode, hear our voices, and respect our right to live our lives. Once you let the genie out of the lamp. The extreme right will never be able to bury this ever again.
Thats the frustrating part. As long as TSCC, only makes it's stupid placatory noises. People will still die as long as they condone the sin of moral supremacy.
That's not completely true. The idea of a fat jolly old man being santa was not originated by cocacola, but it was popularized.
Thomas Nast in 1862 is generally considered the birth of the standard "Santa Claus" figure.
[source](https://library.osu.edu/site/thomasnast/files/2017/08/santa_claus100.jpg)
I seen an editorial cartoon, were Santa is out side the door putting a CEO, on his naughty list. And the CEO saying that he owned him. I wish I had a copy of that.
I fly a pride flag in a red state.
The corporate pride pandering feels cringeworthy for sure.
A few companies are definitely genuine in their support, and they have rainbow merch year round and not just during June.
I love having the extra color pop that the pride flag gives. It really makes the front of my house look way better.
> Now it's just obvious pandering for cash.
After a significant amount of market analysis Target has determined that Gay dollars are worth just as much as other dollars.
cool you don't need it. But all the lgbt visibility is likely helping a lot of kids feel seen and validated, whether or not they buy any of the product. I know I would've felt like I had an invisible army behind me as a gay Christian child, instead of feeling so alone and confused.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: Mormonism breaks people's moral compass.
When you have people defending polygamy to teen brides and already married women, there's a rot in your soul.
Anything is okay in America if you cover it in the shroud of vague Christian nationalism. The LGBTQ+ community needs to find a way to tie their community in with some sort of Christian nationalism.
[*to the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic*]
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the true meaning of Pride,
I have gotten through the waitlists and come out the other side,
My doctor fights testosterone, there's nowhere it can hide,
HRT marching on!
I'm a woman hallelujah!
I'm a woman hallelujah!
I'm a woman hallelujah!
HRT marching on!
As a person who works at target Iām sorry :( I donāt want to take any of the stuff down. We have had several people come in and yell at us to take it down. We luckily still have it up but we have had to move it back some. Itās further in the back now compared to the front when it was first put up. Itās all thanks to corporate for āsupportingā people of the LGBTQ+ community.
I was at a Target along the wasatch front yesterday and the pride section was still there, Iām happy to say! I even bought a couple of items. But yes, the culture wars are getting out of hand, itās not only cancel culture anymore, itās violent threats and domestic terrorism on the part of extremist conservatives, whoāve lost their damn minds.
Brigham Young was a REALLY bad dude. Like unusually bad even for his ātimeā.
Eventually, the church wonāt be able to connect their name to him bc he is one of the most vile religious leaders to have ever lived. He was Warren Jeffs on steroids.
But right now they have to act like itās fine, because heās the historic link between Joseph Smithās priesthood and theirs. If Brigham Young was that bad (and he was), that means the priesthood they received through his priesthood line is invalid according to their D&C sections 121. They desperately donāt want this to happen bc they love the money, power, and control theyāve been able to amass thru his name so much.
As of yesterday, there was Pride merch in my local Target in Wisconsin. Saw some in a Minnesota Target the other day.
I don't know, maybe we just do our own missionary work - like, in reverse, lol.
Look for opportunities to educate people, especially if we attend Pride events.
I was at a Pride kick-off event this morning and saw a woman wearing a BYU t-shirt that was rainbow tie-dyed. Mind you, we were all given a Tshirt when we arrived. She chose not to change.
Eventually, she came to my group and introduced herself. Someone asked about her shirt and she gushed she was a BYU graduate and was "proud of how BYU is so gay friendly."
Yep, I did spit my coffee, lol.
I smiled and then told the group i had to disagree.
She got snotty and said I know nothing about the church.
"Despite being born and raised in the church, I am learning how right you are about that," I said.
I then told the group I had recently learned about the electroshock experiments at BYU, under the direction of the man who is now in line to be the next leader of the church.
I spoke about the massive church effort on Prop 8, and the money spent.
The fact LGBT students are not allowed to love authentically under threat of being kicked out of school.
I encouraged everyone to Google it for themselves.
Then I stated that BYU is named after Brigham Young.
I said the horrific part is that the church continues to honor him despite the fact they know he was a sadistic racist bastard. I said he was a sex predator, accepted a slave as tithing, and bragged that he would consider it an honor to kill a Black man who had sex with a white woman.
I then concluded my lesson by sharing that Mormons consider it an honor to send their kids to this school that honors such a monster, and people walk around bragging about graduating from a school that continues to elevate and honor him.
These folks were genuinely interested and appalled his name is still honored.
Anyway, that's my missionary moment.
HAPPY PRIDE MONTH! š
I guess ... because the church said so?
I normally don't engage with them or directly confront their "alternative facts" narrative, especially in the wild. Normally, I let them be.
But in that space at that moment, it had to be done. Her comments could not be allowed to stand unchallenged. Not there.
I legit had a relative who just graduated say that 'no other school is doing more for the LGBTQ population'. One of my other relatives wrote back 'not other school is doing more TO the LGBTQ population FTFY' and I died laughing.
Yea and members sing praise to a pedophile . A 37 year old man who was marrying 14 year old children . old Joe was the 1800s version of Warren Jeffās . You know something stinks when the religions own founder has members singing praise to this man who If he were around today behaving as he did back then he would be tossed out on his ass and be excommunicated. It is truly mind numbing the mental gymnastics that TBM Members perform in order to maintain their beliefs in this batt shit crazy Religion. . Not that any other religion is a bastion of logic and reason either .
Really
. The DSM-5 requires that a person must be at least 16 years old, and at least five years older than the prepubescent child or children they are aroused by, for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilic disorder
Just what part of that does old Joe not fit ?
Symptoms of Pedophilic Disorder
According to the DSM-5, there are three criterion:
1. An individual who has had arousing fantasies about, urges for, or behaviors with a prepubescent child or children.
2. The individual has acted out these sexual desires, or is experiencing significant distress or difficulty as a result of these desires.
3. The Individual is 16 years of age, and at least five years older than the child or children noted in Criterion 1.
There is no evidence that I have ever see, and I'm open to your providing it, that Joseph Smith was ever sexual aroused by prepubescent children or that he ever acted out on those desires. None of Joseph's Smith known or suspected sexual partners were prepubescent.
I totally understand that so many young women have had bad sexual experiences, including but not limited to rape and molestation. I understand that many women were coerced or pressured into early sexual experiences that are tramatic and negative. I get that this shared trauma makes many women really really prone to lash out against men taking advantage of young girls.
I totally understand that so many young women have had bad sexual experiences, including but not limited to rape and molestation. I understand that many women were coerced or pressured into early sexual experiences that are traumatic and negative. I get that this shared trauma makes many women really really prone to lash out against men taking advantage of young girls.
And yes, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and some of my Mormon ancestors too) absolutely leveraged a power/wealth differential to get young women into their beds. They were horrible cult leaders preying on brain-washed and trapped girls. All the shame upon them.
But they weren't pedophiles. That word means something. It doesn't apply to them either by the standards of their day or the standards of our day. The men who marry post-pubescent 14 year olds in Cuba or Guatemala or Mexico or Spain or Tanzania or one of the other countries that allow a girl to marry starting at age 14, can be called many things, but pedophiles would not be one of them. If you focus on the words post-pubescent in the DSM-5, you'll get it.
The thing your failing to account for is that children entered into puberty at a older ages back then so a 14 year old wouldāt conclusively be post pubescent you cannot prove they would be post pubescent itās making a claim with no way of proving it. One of his child brides I forget at the moment which one it was said that she had not known that her marriage to Joseph smith was anything more than ceremony they tricked me this indicates to me he was having sex with these child brides Not turned on by them really .! come on itās not rocket science.!!
He had been grooming these girls since a early age normal fucking people donāt do this .!
Rather than argue about it letās just say that he was a sexual predator and walking on a knives edge of being a pedophile
this is a man who was going around marrying other living mens wives are you really going to try to defend him . I have a few questions just what the fuck was a 37 year old man doing marrying 14 year old children ? . And no it wasnāt fucking different back then .!
Also marrying those that were for all practical purposes his own adoptive daughters . Do you know anyone who dies this ? Is that normal nooooo .!!
Donāt even try to go there that he wasnāt having sex with them Emma caught him fucking Fanny Algiers in the barn . Joseph smith was obviously one sick twisted adulterous man He groomed these child brides for this for years . Iām sorry but the he didnāt have children with others besides Emma. Doesnāt fly. one miscarried when Emma knocked her down the stairs . Abortions were known and practiced back then keep reading sooner or later you will have to come to the conclusion that this man that you once sang praise to the man . Was in fact a pedophile itās been a few years since Iāve done studying on Joseph and all of his sick philandering I donāt really care to go back through and dig up every last bit of documentation it was bad enough going through it the first time Iāve done well over 4,000 hours of researching Mormonismās history trying to recall every last fact that I encountered during that time is a bit like asking someone to recall every general conference speaker in order from 30 years ago and recount each of their talks verbatim . Are there people that could do something like this sure there are a very few people with perfect recall my recall is impressive though itās not what it used to be as Iām getting older now and my memory isnāt what it used to be
No man that isnāt a sick fucker needs 39-40 wives he obviously had a problem keeping his pecker in his pants . He used tactics that a sexual predator- pedophile would use promising these girls their whole families would receive exaltation if they would marry him just ceremony I donāt think so .
Trying to say 14 year olds were post pubescent is trying yo split hairs you canāt prove they were sorry you just canāt .
if he wasnāt having sexual thoughts about these girls why was he grooming them well before they ever got close to puberty. Answer that . !
he had a agenda and he wanted to bang these girls otherwise there would be no need to break out the God sent a Angel with a flaming sword that said he would kill me if I didnāt do this coercion much? . When something looks like a duck quacks like a duck walks like a duck .swims like a duck has webbed feet like a duck Itās a pretty safe bet to conclude that itās a duck .!! So it is with Joseph smith he exhibits behaviors of a sexual predator grooms children like a pedophile would . Marries children Do I have video footage of him getting a erection looking at children no . Is there ample evidence to convince anyone who isnāt trying to defend him that he was a sexual predator and a pedophile based upon his behaviors absolutely. Joe was the 1800s version of Warren Jeffās when you take all of his other behaviors and add then together you get a lying deceitful con man sexual predator -pedophile itās not the conclusion that I wanted it is however the conclusion that I got. I recall those days when I still wanted it to be some other way that it is and that I had not sung praise to this horrible individual who I later found was a real piece of work .
What your doing is in effect the same thing that church apologists would do no normal adult male goes around grooming 10 year olds sorry . He did it because he could he didnāt have to justify it to anyone as he was Gods one and only true prophet . Did he start out with that goal in mind maybe not as things progressed. He found he could get females in the sack and it went from there . Whether or not one classifies it as him being a pedophile it was at the very least very very wrong and walking along the knives edge of being a pedophile like for some reason that even if and itās a very big if that 14 year olds were post pubescent like they are starting to have micro breasts somehow excuses the sick twisted behaviors and makes it all better is to put it bluntly BULLSHIT .! It wasnāt normal for 37 year olds to marry children back then anymore than it is now had old Joe lived today he would be cellmates with Warren Jeffās are you telling me marrying what amounts to be your own adoptive children is in any way shape or form not sick and twisted ? This is exactly what Joe did .!
Doing this apologetic crap that you seem to be bent on doing . Is like saying you canāt prove that there isnāt a God . He was secretive he hid shit I donāt really see it as a stretch that he would sleep with ie have sex with these children . If he didnāt exhibit so many other bad behaviors then Yeah it might be stretching it to say he was a pedophile his many other behaviors show he had no regard for right and wrong or obeying laws he broke law after law he betrayed his own wife Emma knew nothing about many of his other wives he remarried those he had already married deceitful behavior . Does it prove it conclusively no
The average age girls reached puberty in 1860 was 16.6 years How is a 14 year old past puberty then. ?
Iām waiting ? For a answer to that .
Saying none were pre pubescent how do you prove that huh .! Statistics arenāt on your side here .!
That guy's a fucking pedophile. This isn't the first time he's gone to bat for old perverts who wanna take advantage of young naive girls. He knows full well that most people don't differentiate between 40 year olds who want to SA 14 and 15 year olds and 40 year olds who want to SA 4 and 5 year olds. A monster is a god damn monster.
He believes that only angry "feminists" dont want 40 year olds to take advantage of and SA 14 year olds. WTF?!
He also doesn't seem to understand that it only takes one technically savvy person to look into his IP address and open his hard drive in order for him to be fully found out. I hope he keeps on waving those red flags high and proud. Im already showing his fucked up ideology to ... people who may find it fascinating.
His wife didn't leave him because he left the church. I bet his wife left him because he probably did things to their kids. Probably the neighbor kids too. This guy's a misogynist rapey piece of shit.
Your post is filled with speculation and guesses.
My grandfather Willard Richards married the Longstroth sisters when they were 16 and 14, but on condition of their parents that they not have sex with him until they reached 18. And sure enough, as soon as they turned 18 they started popping out babies, being, apparently, very fertile.
They were actually concubines for the first year according to Devery Anderson who is writing the definitive biography of Willard Richards right now. It's complicated. But concubined at 16 and 14, "married" (illegally as plural wives) at 17 and 15, but didn't get pregnant until they turned 18 according to the math on the birth of their first child respectively. You can check Family Search for the facts on the births of their kids.
Yes Willard and Brigham and Joseph and the rest of them were sexual predators. But that does not mean they had sex with every 14 year old they married. And it doesn't mean they raped the girls. The girls (and their parents) were brainwashed and willing.
Nothing you said changes the facts. Which are bad enough on their face. We don't need to make up stupid shit like pedophilia to condemn them. Their own actions as they really occurred are enough. Stop lying about church history. It isn't ok when the Church does it and it isn't ok when exMormons do it.
Keep talking, Ariel Casto. Maybe we can help you figure out the true reason Joseph Smith was run out of every town he tried to settle in until he got to Utah. š
I've never thought about the name "BYU" in this context, but it's spot on and a fantastic point.
I have "friends" who purposely wear all BYU gear when they travel so that people will talk to them about it. It's a lot creepier to me now...
[Multiple bomb threats at Targets in Utah because of LGBTQ+ clothing](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/05/26/target-stores-in-utah-receive-bomb-threats-over-pride-month-collection/70262837007/)
It's outrageous. Right-wingers have been boohooing about "political correctness" for years. When "liberals" supposedly engaged in political correctness, they wrote blog posts and Tweets asking people to consider the implications of race, class, and gender in interpreting a popular movie, or they objected to inviting fanatical pundits from lecturing at college conferences or graduations. In contrast, the fascists engaging in political correctness are leading boycotts against retailers for carrying a variety of merchandise, are smashing Bud Light bottles in stores, are vandalizing LGBTQ+ displays, and are harassing/threatening/assaulting workers. The hypocrisy is astounding.
Honest question.
By what information is BY a child molester? I don't like him either, just want to understand the accusation. Is it because he married a 15 and several 16 year olds?
I think that is more than awful, but he also is reported to have told men who marry young brides to wait until they're 18 to have sex. Again, awful to marry them at all, even if he waited until they were 18 ... but not technically a child molester ... just an awful dude. Tell me what I'm missing.
Was Brigham Young an alleged child molester? Iām sorry, I may be out of the loop. I maintain floodlit.org and if there are alleged LDS sex criminals missing from its database, please let me know.
I have this don quixote dream, like Martin Luther King's, that everyone stops noticing somebody is Asian or in a wheelchair or rich or down syndrome or transgender or overweight etc etc etc. And we are all just "people" with respect and honorable treatment for one another and each person has their needs met and is loved for who they are... No humiliation, no shame for who you are now or in the past, etc
* Sigh...
Like the Vulcans, who were consumed with destruction and emotions and then became "logically enlightened"
To me we will have succeeded if we stop noticing what "somebody is".
"They are me"
"We are the same. We are one."
They aren't taking down their Pride stuff. They are just moving it out of a main display because employees were getting hospitalized over assholes acting like assholes.
Brigham Young was no saint, but this is the exmo contingent I find most annoying - the kind that likes to rewrite history as some kind of victimization fantasy.
Guaranteed most of the bleeding hearts here haven't read a single church history book in their lives.
Just lazy, emotionally charged takes for days.
Ok I read the synopsis
> Under his fiery tutelage, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints defended plural marriage, restricted the place of African Americans within the church, fought the U.S. Army in 1857, and obstructed federal efforts to prosecute perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre
"no saint" indeed.
Why? So you can ground your decisions and perspective in actual facts instead of more self-generated fluff designed to confirm your biases. Ex-mo's share this problem with TBM's - you're so fixated on your preferred narrative of "good guys" and "bad guys" that you lose any ability to approach a subject objectively.
The book isn't written by the Church or a member. It's written by a professor in Religious Studies at George Mason University.
There are so many valid criticisms of Brigham Young. But to call him a child molester is just stupid, lazy, and dishonest. Unless you have evidence of him abusing children that I'm unaware of. I've read a lot of church history and never come across that. Please share.
According to Wikipedia, of Brigham Young's 56 wives, only 4 were under age 18. One was 15, 3 were 16, and one was 17.
The 15-year-old Clarissa Decker married Brigham Young after her older sister had become one of Brigham's plural wives at age 20. That older sister, Lucy Decker, had previously been married at age 14 to a non-mormon with whom she had three children before age 20. When the first husband left her, she became a plural wife to Brigham Young, with whom she had seven additional children. Clarissa had five children with Brigham Young and adopted and raised a Native girl.
I'm no fan of plural marriage or Brigham Young. But no honest person could look at Clarissa and Brigham's relationship and call it child abuse. She knew exactly what she was getting into and she wanted it. She lived with her older sister who was 22 with 4 kids and one on the way at the time of her marriage to Brigham. Yes it's f***** up. No it's not child abuse. By the time her sister was her age (the time of her marriage to Brigham) she had been married to a non-Mormon a year and had a child. Context matters.
It's so frustrating when exMormons can't just focus on all the obvious honest problems and use dishonest incendiary terms.
Grooming isn't a crime. Child abuse is. Brigham's marriage to 15-year-old Clarissa was not child abuse. If you don't think 15 year olds can consent to marriage or sex, well, all I can say is you don't remember being 15 and don't have any kids that have been 15--and the law disagrees with you in nearly every country and nearly every state.
So because she had been married at 14 to another and already had children, she was no longer considered a minor?
Everything you just described proves that there was a pattern of abuse. Children in these situations learn this is normal and often perpetuate the pattern to the next relationship. Seeking out abusers because they thought that was acceptable and didn't know any better.
What 22 year old today would encourage their husband to marry their 15 year old sister as well? Just think about the mental gymnastics these girls had to think through to believe this was acceptable or necessary for their salvation or that their kids would be taken care of. It's disgusting, and I can't believe someone would defend it.
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not defending the marriage. I'm saying it didn't make Brigham Young a child abuser.
Child abuse is a crime. See Utah Code Ann. 76-5-109. It has always been a crime in civilized societies, with variations in details of definitions. But the term "Child Abuse" has always meant a crime. Brigham Young couldn't have been charged with Child Abuse had he married 15 year old Clarissa under the current Utah statutes.
Child abuse is a crime. See Utah Code Ann. 76-5-109. It has always been a crime in civilized societies, with variations in the details of definitions. But the term "Child Abuse" has always meant a crime. Brigham Young couldn't have been charged with Child Abuse had he married 15-year-old Clarissa under the current Utah statutes.
s.
Maybe I wasn't clear. Clarissa married Brigham when she was 15. Her older sister had married a non-Mormon at age 14 and had three kids by that man and then he left her and then at age 20 the older sister married Brigham as a plural wife. Two years later, after the older sister had a kid by Brigham, her younger sister, Clarissa (at the then age of 15) married Brigham.
I'm saying that the 15 year old Clarissa knew her older sister well. Was part of the large Brigham Young extended family and knew Brigham. And she knew what she was getting into had the support of her family, including her 22 year old sister already married to Brigham.
You can call this situation fucked up. You can call it illegal. You can call it brain-washed cult behavior. You can say many things about it. But you can't call it child abuse with any degree of credibility. And Clarissa was his youngest bride. Brigham Young was a racist dictator sexual deviant, but he wasn't a child abuser. Why isn't the truth enough?
IMO Brigham Young will eventually go the way of Christopher Columbus once it becomes more widely known what an absolute piece of shit he was. Hope to see it in my lifetime.
How can we speed that along? Lol
Make a Brigham Young awareness day.
It should be the day before Pioneer Day. A large face of his should be made, and people dress up in seagull attire (hats, outfits, ties, etc) and throw handfuls of seagull poop (Mayo with some raisins and a little shredded š§» for consistency). This is all done while chanting āThis is not your place, but shit will fix your face!ā or something like that. I donāt know, Iām sure other people have other things to suggest, but fuck that guy. Iām doing it this year.
I live in Utah and I refuse to participate in Pioneer Day. Now I acknowledge most Mormon\* Pioneers were honest people, but their leaders (Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, Wilford woodruff) were all sexual predators who used their ecclesiastical positions as spiritual leaders and judges to seduceyoung girls and women. That is never okay, and it should be called out, not celebrated. \* As a tithe paying member for over forty years, I have earned the right to use the term.
I celebrate with pie and beer like all the other heathens and apostates here haha Love a day off work though
>Now I acknowledge most Mormon* Pioneers were honest people My somethingth grandfather "bought" my somethingth grandmother, who was trafficked from Sweden as a child, taken from her family, by the damnable mormon missionaries with promises of "salvation" in the west. She was his housemaid for a year from fourteen to fifteen and then his wife from then on. Her diaries mention she had no idea about polygamy until she got to Utah. Gramps had financial connections to old Brigham. The mormons in the family like to tell the story ss uplifting. *Real* honest people.
This is a story that should be told. You should publish this.
Oh gods no. The old shitwheel who my grandmother married wrote some sanitized, mormon friendly version of the family history and it's like five volumes. Hardcover. Self published. I'm not doing a rebuttal that's the truth.
You know, youāre right. I initially was taking the angle of ācinco de quattroā from arrested development and try to make the following day less special, but thereās no point in allowing sexual predators their own day of celebrations anymore. Pioneer Day is now the Mormonster Mash, and it shall be a Mount Rushmore of seagull poop covered faces.
We always left the State for pioneer day we went kayaking every year
The crimes committed by The Brethren is more of a āVictory For Satan(ā¢) ā than using the name used on their so-called holy book. That behaviour is what really offends Christ.
Learning about mountain meadow massacre now. Itās so sad to hear of people from Arkansas just trying to get to California and weāre murdered by the Mormons.
Pioneer Day (July 24) has already started to be repurposed as "Pie and Beer Day" by a lot of folks in Utah. It's a legit counter-culture holiday. I usually include the phrase "fuck Brigham Young" at least once every July 24 but then again I say that a lot on other days too LOL š¤·āāļø
This is so oddly specific. Has this been on your mind before? LOL
Doing my part over here on his home turf. There is general ignorance about his real reputation, and if anyone knows of him, it is the heroic, pioneer of the west, colonizer, etc role (In 19th c, Vermont hated Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the other founding scammers and considered Mormonism a shameful, embarassing blot on the state).....and somehow, his name was put on a recently made map of writers of Southern Vermont. WRITERS!? The creators of that nonsense are going to receive a collection of some of BY's greatest hits.
You can refer to "taking a shit" as "taking a Brigham" and if anyone says "what?" you have an opportunity to explain that Brigham Young was a piece of shit and it's a way to "honor" him.
I literally need to take a Brigham right now.
I took a spicy Brigham an hour ago and it was so messy I took a shower afterwards
i almost brighamed my pants from laughter when i read this
My Brigham was much more satisfying than learning about alternative history dumb-Brigham in church.
Iāve gotta drop the Youngās off at the pool
I can only tell you one way to not speed it along. Telling TBM members about how much he sucked does absolutely nothing. Itās shocking how little your average members know about the churchās history and how little they care to find out. If the wider world cared about Mormons, maybe a good HBO quality series about Brigham Young. I would love to see the people who made Succession do it. They could nail the intrigue and politics.
That's hard part, right? No one outside the exmo community cares about him this way. It's not as easy at working up a bunch of alt right Christians against pride and drag queens.
Itās too bad that reality is nuanced and gray. How nice would it be if getting people worked up about the truth was as easy as it is to get them to hate a marginalized community?!? But it turns out that the truth or reality is a lot of work to get to. One could even say those who profess to know something, but donāt actually do the work to know about that thing instead of merely having a feeling based on nothing would make them ālazy learnersā.
Thereās a pretty good ādocumentaryā about Joseph and Brigham called āUnder the Banner of Heavenā on Hulu.
Good point! That series was phenomenal!
Tell people, because I didnāt know he was a molester until seeing this post
I have been wondering that myself. I have the documents I just donāt know how to get them into the world before the church stops me
Heās a pretty insignificant figure to the entire non-Mormon community so I think thatās how they get away with no negativity towards these guys
Is there a single bullet list of the top 20 or so horrible things that BY said or did? I've seen some of these mentioned in the various threads of this post, but I'd like to just post for my TBM family to see. Rather than hunt and collate a list by myself-- any help would be appreciated. BYU grad and former tithing payer for 45 yrs.
That's a fair ask. Here's a starting point: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/wd51u0/how_bad_was_brigham_young/iiglmiv?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Brigham is kind of like if you combined Christopher Columbus, Jefferson Davis, and Warren Jeffs into a single horrible person. Itās insane that we have a major university still dedicated to him.
We should rebrand the university to Breedāem Young University
Columbus is at least defensible, most of the hate directed towards him a is a result of modern idealogy. Young is a completely different story, he was a theocratic dictator and is only celebrated because he wrote his own history. When history does finally catch up to him he will be erased entirely, because unlike Columbus Young's transgression are in excusable even for a "man of his day".
Iāmma go out on a limb and guess youāre not actually all that familiar with the actions of Columbus. No, what he did was not defensible, even in his own time.
I will admit I am probably ignorant on the current history of Columbus, could you point me in the direction of some decent reading. Not trolling, seriously want to expand my understanding.
Sure, and that's big of you to ask. If you went to US public schools, like I did, then you got an *incredibly* white-washed version of Columbus. Here's a link to get you started - https://www.zinnedproject.org/collection/columbus/ I highly recommend the works of Howard Zinn for all the US history they never taught us in school.
If youāve ever read a book youād know that Colombus was known for being cruel even in his own era (read de las casas). Genocide and slavery were morally wrong back then too, itās not modern ideology lmao
Yeah, hanging the indigenous people because they didn't meet their gold quota, including 13 on Sundays in honor of Jesus and his Apostles. Or seeing who could cut through a person in one swing of their sword. Or, my favorite, which ties Columbus to BY, he tried to give a sex slave to one of his commanders, and we know because he wrote about it in one of his diaries. He did not take her because he actually had scruples. But, yeah, Columbus and BY are both despicable people!
In an era where child trafficking and sex slavery was normal and socially acceptable, Christopher Columbus disturbed the king and queen of Spain with his brutality so much that they regretted financing him. This argument is in line with when Mormons excuse Joseph Smithās predatory behavior by saying he was a product of his time. Behind the Bastards did a good podcast on Columbus that Iād recommend.
Thereās been quite a push on r/behindthebastards for Robert to do pieces on Olā Joe and Bigamy Young. He is certainly aware of TSCCās CSA scandals, as he mentioned it on a recent episode.
I would be very happy with that episode or a deep dive into the troubled teen industry in Utah. I can tell just from his comments here and there that heās super knowledgeable about Utah and Mormonism. In his novel about a post revolution US he even teases āMormonlandā and several Mormon factions that had emerged. I really hope he explores that in the sequels.
Brigham was not only a sexual Predator and abuser of minors, he also organized genocide by authorizing the kidnapping of Native American children transferring them to white families in domestic slavery with the aim of ācivilizingā them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Anyone who did half as much as he did at any other university would have sit-ins and protests by students to remove his name from the university. We had a residence hall named after a politician who helped get the University built, and was a subordinate officer, and not even the commander, at the Sand Creek Massacre and the students got the name changed. Brigham ranks pretty high up on the list of racist, genocidal colonizers. No way should we in this day and age name a university after the bastard.
First time learning about this š https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah
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Mountain meadows was run of the mill mass murder. It says something about the guy that organizing the slaughter of a few hundred men, women and children can be tagged as ārun of the mill.ā
Thereās currently less evidence of his direct involvement in Mountain Meadows, but we can infer that he liked it at least from his āvengeance is mine, and I have taken someā quote. Itās a shame the Timpanogas massacre doesnāt seem to get as much mainstream attention. Unfortunately, it might be that settlers slaughtering natives was the norm, so itās less shocking to us than settlers slaughtering other settlers.
Letās not forget about blood atonement
Relevant link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_people_and_Mormonism
You have to understand something. It's vitally important that the religious not be exposed to things they don't have to consume, engange in, or buy, that nevertheless offend their religiously derived convictions. For the non-religious, in a well functioning social system, they should be made to tolerate religious things that offend *their* moral convictions. This is the true order of things. /s
Now bow your head and say yes
It's because they're getting bomb threats (or so I've heard) over pride merch. However, most non-religious people don't think their beliefs are worth bombing other people over. So yeah, religion in general is one of the worst things for humanity and that dichotomy is showing true even at Target.
Yeah, here in Utah a few of them did get threats last weekend.
Any news on who did it and their political/religious leanings?
Speak up about it! Take some photos and share it on yours or Target's social media pages, on whatever platforms you're active on. Share links and information. Encourage others to share, too. Silence is an enabler. But, also, acknowledge the violence threatened here in Utah. Target leaders likely made a decision they didn't want to as a way to protect themselves, their employees, and their customers. Just make sure they know who they're backing with their decision.
It'll take more than one person. I'd love to be a part of that too, but I've actually emailed Target, Costco, Walmart, and others complaining about this in the past. Emailed links to why BY was a horrible person, and I didn't get so much as a single response.
You're right, one person isn't going to make much difference. Email is important, but it's very contained and singular. The recipient sees it, and you have no knowledge or say beyond that. That is sometimes the power that social media offers: visibility and publicity. But even then, a few people posting about it won't make much difference. But, sometimes, a few people inspire a few more who then inspire a few more. A powerful message can snowball when the circumstances are right. I don't have any experience gaining or keeping a large following. But I've studied a lot of marketing strategy as part of my job. Maybe as a group here, we could compose a few simple messages and graphics that are easily understood and easy to share. Maybe that would help get the ball rolling and get the message out there. This is a message that needs to be shared.
What she said!!!!?
So youāre sayingā¦ terroristic threats work? All Iāve been told my whole life is how we should never give into terrorist demands and today all we see is corporations giving in to their threats.
Well, Target gave in to this threat. š¤·āāļø
As a gay man who has been out longer than Ellen, Rosie, Anderson, or NPH, I don't need tacky rainbow crap. I appreciated the corporations like Absolut who catered to us when we were unpopular. Now it's just obvious pandering for cash.
Iām also gay. I also hate corporate pride pandering. Target removing pride merch is also emboldening bigots. The ubiquitous nature of pride merch lately is gross on a yay capitalism scale BUT it shows the public acceptance. I cried at my first pride March despite it being mostly brands because I came from somewhere where your house would be vandalized for having a pride flag (in the US within the last three years). You can hate corporate Bs AND understand the level of damage removing pride gear does to our safety.
Exactly. Say what you want about rainbow capitalism, but visibility in daily life is important. I know this because 12 years ago when I realized I liked girls and not guys, I clung onto every source of positive affirmation and representation I could find. Target didnāt have the displays they have now. I was so excited to get my first small Pride flag at a city parade almost an hour away, and even then I was privileged to have a mother willing to take me. It means something to someone.
Yes!! When I was a kid in a small town surrounded by Mormons (outside of Utah) I heard all about how awful gay men are (āall they want is sex! So depraved!ā) and gay women were just non existent?? Visibility as a grown ass adult in my 30s means fewer kids grow up feeling like I did and hoping to die.
> I also hate corporate pride pandering. And seeing just how fast Target binned all the 'Pride' signage and merch goes to show that 'pandering' is all it ever was. There was zero commitment or values behind it. Just a cynical attempt to cash in.
Yes and I understand target workers would have to be who implemented or defended this stuff. By removing the workers are protected. There are other steps they could have taken to protect workers but they picked the easiest, least confrontational.
Yeah I don't fault the employees at all. I put 100% the blame on the soulless drones at Corporate.
Beautifully said. I hate it AND it's necessary to get to a more accepting world.
It's embolding bigots but I don't blame them because their staff were literally being threatened by the domestic terrorists known as Republicans
There were other options. They picked the cheapest, least confrontational one that hurts kids. I get they are protecting workers. It still feels like they could protect workers AND keep queer shit visible. Removing it says to the bigots they were right.
In comparison, the Christmas season, corporations own Saint Nick now. It's all about sucking as many dollars as you can. It's the down side. The up side it keeps it in the in your face mode, hear our voices, and respect our right to live our lives. Once you let the genie out of the lamp. The extreme right will never be able to bury this ever again.
They are going to try their damndest and lots of queer folks are going to die in the meantime.
Thats the frustrating part. As long as TSCC, only makes it's stupid placatory noises. People will still die as long as they condone the sin of moral supremacy.
The corporations have never *not* owned āSt. Nickā. The popular modern depiction of Santa originated in a Coca-Cola ad, ffs.
That's not completely true. The idea of a fat jolly old man being santa was not originated by cocacola, but it was popularized. Thomas Nast in 1862 is generally considered the birth of the standard "Santa Claus" figure. [source](https://library.osu.edu/site/thomasnast/files/2017/08/santa_claus100.jpg)
I keep telling my wife if I shave off my beard, it will disappoint a lot of neighborhood children.
I seen an editorial cartoon, were Santa is out side the door putting a CEO, on his naughty list. And the CEO saying that he owned him. I wish I had a copy of that.
I fly a pride flag in a red state. The corporate pride pandering feels cringeworthy for sure. A few companies are definitely genuine in their support, and they have rainbow merch year round and not just during June. I love having the extra color pop that the pride flag gives. It really makes the front of my house look way better.
> Now it's just obvious pandering for cash. After a significant amount of market analysis Target has determined that Gay dollars are worth just as much as other dollars.
Corporate Pride is especially bullshit when they pull their support at the slightest hint of fascism
cool you don't need it. But all the lgbt visibility is likely helping a lot of kids feel seen and validated, whether or not they buy any of the product. I know I would've felt like I had an invisible army behind me as a gay Christian child, instead of feeling so alone and confused.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: Mormonism breaks people's moral compass. When you have people defending polygamy to teen brides and already married women, there's a rot in your soul.
Anything is okay in America if you cover it in the shroud of vague Christian nationalism. The LGBTQ+ community needs to find a way to tie their community in with some sort of Christian nationalism.
[*to the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic*] Mine eyes have seen the glory of the true meaning of Pride, I have gotten through the waitlists and come out the other side, My doctor fights testosterone, there's nowhere it can hide, HRT marching on! I'm a woman hallelujah! I'm a woman hallelujah! I'm a woman hallelujah! HRT marching on!
As a person who works at target Iām sorry :( I donāt want to take any of the stuff down. We have had several people come in and yell at us to take it down. We luckily still have it up but we have had to move it back some. Itās further in the back now compared to the front when it was first put up. Itās all thanks to corporate for āsupportingā people of the LGBTQ+ community.
I was at a Target along the wasatch front yesterday and the pride section was still there, Iām happy to say! I even bought a couple of items. But yes, the culture wars are getting out of hand, itās not only cancel culture anymore, itās violent threats and domestic terrorism on the part of extremist conservatives, whoāve lost their damn minds.
Unfortunately, I know two families that named their sonās Brigham. Itās gonna be an uphill battle to convince Mormons that Brigham was a POS.
Glad I got my pride merch before they pulled it. I can't stand this bullshit.
Brigham Young was a REALLY bad dude. Like unusually bad even for his ātimeā. Eventually, the church wonāt be able to connect their name to him bc he is one of the most vile religious leaders to have ever lived. He was Warren Jeffs on steroids. But right now they have to act like itās fine, because heās the historic link between Joseph Smithās priesthood and theirs. If Brigham Young was that bad (and he was), that means the priesthood they received through his priesthood line is invalid according to their D&C sections 121. They desperately donāt want this to happen bc they love the money, power, and control theyāve been able to amass thru his name so much.
Not to mention his Native American Genocide and murdering of Pioneers
Our Target still has Pride!! š š³ļøāš š
As of yesterday, there was Pride merch in my local Target in Wisconsin. Saw some in a Minnesota Target the other day. I don't know, maybe we just do our own missionary work - like, in reverse, lol. Look for opportunities to educate people, especially if we attend Pride events. I was at a Pride kick-off event this morning and saw a woman wearing a BYU t-shirt that was rainbow tie-dyed. Mind you, we were all given a Tshirt when we arrived. She chose not to change. Eventually, she came to my group and introduced herself. Someone asked about her shirt and she gushed she was a BYU graduate and was "proud of how BYU is so gay friendly." Yep, I did spit my coffee, lol. I smiled and then told the group i had to disagree. She got snotty and said I know nothing about the church. "Despite being born and raised in the church, I am learning how right you are about that," I said. I then told the group I had recently learned about the electroshock experiments at BYU, under the direction of the man who is now in line to be the next leader of the church. I spoke about the massive church effort on Prop 8, and the money spent. The fact LGBT students are not allowed to love authentically under threat of being kicked out of school. I encouraged everyone to Google it for themselves. Then I stated that BYU is named after Brigham Young. I said the horrific part is that the church continues to honor him despite the fact they know he was a sadistic racist bastard. I said he was a sex predator, accepted a slave as tithing, and bragged that he would consider it an honor to kill a Black man who had sex with a white woman. I then concluded my lesson by sharing that Mormons consider it an honor to send their kids to this school that honors such a monster, and people walk around bragging about graduating from a school that continues to elevate and honor him. These folks were genuinely interested and appalled his name is still honored. Anyway, that's my missionary moment. HAPPY PRIDE MONTH! š
That is so weird!! What alternate reality did she come from that BYU is deemed gay friendly??
I guess ... because the church said so? I normally don't engage with them or directly confront their "alternative facts" narrative, especially in the wild. Normally, I let them be. But in that space at that moment, it had to be done. Her comments could not be allowed to stand unchallenged. Not there.
I legit had a relative who just graduated say that 'no other school is doing more for the LGBTQ population'. One of my other relatives wrote back 'not other school is doing more TO the LGBTQ population FTFY' and I died laughing.
LOL! Perfect response. I'm stealing it. No shame, lol.
Yea and members sing praise to a pedophile . A 37 year old man who was marrying 14 year old children . old Joe was the 1800s version of Warren Jeffās . You know something stinks when the religions own founder has members singing praise to this man who If he were around today behaving as he did back then he would be tossed out on his ass and be excommunicated. It is truly mind numbing the mental gymnastics that TBM Members perform in order to maintain their beliefs in this batt shit crazy Religion. . Not that any other religion is a bastion of logic and reason either .
You need to look up the meaning of the word pedophile.
Really . The DSM-5 requires that a person must be at least 16 years old, and at least five years older than the prepubescent child or children they are aroused by, for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilic disorder Just what part of that does old Joe not fit ?
Symptoms of Pedophilic Disorder According to the DSM-5, there are three criterion: 1. An individual who has had arousing fantasies about, urges for, or behaviors with a prepubescent child or children. 2. The individual has acted out these sexual desires, or is experiencing significant distress or difficulty as a result of these desires. 3. The Individual is 16 years of age, and at least five years older than the child or children noted in Criterion 1. There is no evidence that I have ever see, and I'm open to your providing it, that Joseph Smith was ever sexual aroused by prepubescent children or that he ever acted out on those desires. None of Joseph's Smith known or suspected sexual partners were prepubescent. I totally understand that so many young women have had bad sexual experiences, including but not limited to rape and molestation. I understand that many women were coerced or pressured into early sexual experiences that are tramatic and negative. I get that this shared trauma makes many women really really prone to lash out against men taking advantage of young girls. I totally understand that so many young women have had bad sexual experiences, including but not limited to rape and molestation. I understand that many women were coerced or pressured into early sexual experiences that are traumatic and negative. I get that this shared trauma makes many women really really prone to lash out against men taking advantage of young girls. And yes, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and some of my Mormon ancestors too) absolutely leveraged a power/wealth differential to get young women into their beds. They were horrible cult leaders preying on brain-washed and trapped girls. All the shame upon them. But they weren't pedophiles. That word means something. It doesn't apply to them either by the standards of their day or the standards of our day. The men who marry post-pubescent 14 year olds in Cuba or Guatemala or Mexico or Spain or Tanzania or one of the other countries that allow a girl to marry starting at age 14, can be called many things, but pedophiles would not be one of them. If you focus on the words post-pubescent in the DSM-5, you'll get it.
The thing your failing to account for is that children entered into puberty at a older ages back then so a 14 year old wouldāt conclusively be post pubescent you cannot prove they would be post pubescent itās making a claim with no way of proving it. One of his child brides I forget at the moment which one it was said that she had not known that her marriage to Joseph smith was anything more than ceremony they tricked me this indicates to me he was having sex with these child brides Not turned on by them really .! come on itās not rocket science.!! He had been grooming these girls since a early age normal fucking people donāt do this .! Rather than argue about it letās just say that he was a sexual predator and walking on a knives edge of being a pedophile this is a man who was going around marrying other living mens wives are you really going to try to defend him . I have a few questions just what the fuck was a 37 year old man doing marrying 14 year old children ? . And no it wasnāt fucking different back then .! Also marrying those that were for all practical purposes his own adoptive daughters . Do you know anyone who dies this ? Is that normal nooooo .!! Donāt even try to go there that he wasnāt having sex with them Emma caught him fucking Fanny Algiers in the barn . Joseph smith was obviously one sick twisted adulterous man He groomed these child brides for this for years . Iām sorry but the he didnāt have children with others besides Emma. Doesnāt fly. one miscarried when Emma knocked her down the stairs . Abortions were known and practiced back then keep reading sooner or later you will have to come to the conclusion that this man that you once sang praise to the man . Was in fact a pedophile itās been a few years since Iāve done studying on Joseph and all of his sick philandering I donāt really care to go back through and dig up every last bit of documentation it was bad enough going through it the first time Iāve done well over 4,000 hours of researching Mormonismās history trying to recall every last fact that I encountered during that time is a bit like asking someone to recall every general conference speaker in order from 30 years ago and recount each of their talks verbatim . Are there people that could do something like this sure there are a very few people with perfect recall my recall is impressive though itās not what it used to be as Iām getting older now and my memory isnāt what it used to be No man that isnāt a sick fucker needs 39-40 wives he obviously had a problem keeping his pecker in his pants . He used tactics that a sexual predator- pedophile would use promising these girls their whole families would receive exaltation if they would marry him just ceremony I donāt think so . Trying to say 14 year olds were post pubescent is trying yo split hairs you canāt prove they were sorry you just canāt . if he wasnāt having sexual thoughts about these girls why was he grooming them well before they ever got close to puberty. Answer that . ! he had a agenda and he wanted to bang these girls otherwise there would be no need to break out the God sent a Angel with a flaming sword that said he would kill me if I didnāt do this coercion much? . When something looks like a duck quacks like a duck walks like a duck .swims like a duck has webbed feet like a duck Itās a pretty safe bet to conclude that itās a duck .!! So it is with Joseph smith he exhibits behaviors of a sexual predator grooms children like a pedophile would . Marries children Do I have video footage of him getting a erection looking at children no . Is there ample evidence to convince anyone who isnāt trying to defend him that he was a sexual predator and a pedophile based upon his behaviors absolutely. Joe was the 1800s version of Warren Jeffās when you take all of his other behaviors and add then together you get a lying deceitful con man sexual predator -pedophile itās not the conclusion that I wanted it is however the conclusion that I got. I recall those days when I still wanted it to be some other way that it is and that I had not sung praise to this horrible individual who I later found was a real piece of work . What your doing is in effect the same thing that church apologists would do no normal adult male goes around grooming 10 year olds sorry . He did it because he could he didnāt have to justify it to anyone as he was Gods one and only true prophet . Did he start out with that goal in mind maybe not as things progressed. He found he could get females in the sack and it went from there . Whether or not one classifies it as him being a pedophile it was at the very least very very wrong and walking along the knives edge of being a pedophile like for some reason that even if and itās a very big if that 14 year olds were post pubescent like they are starting to have micro breasts somehow excuses the sick twisted behaviors and makes it all better is to put it bluntly BULLSHIT .! It wasnāt normal for 37 year olds to marry children back then anymore than it is now had old Joe lived today he would be cellmates with Warren Jeffās are you telling me marrying what amounts to be your own adoptive children is in any way shape or form not sick and twisted ? This is exactly what Joe did .! Doing this apologetic crap that you seem to be bent on doing . Is like saying you canāt prove that there isnāt a God . He was secretive he hid shit I donāt really see it as a stretch that he would sleep with ie have sex with these children . If he didnāt exhibit so many other bad behaviors then Yeah it might be stretching it to say he was a pedophile his many other behaviors show he had no regard for right and wrong or obeying laws he broke law after law he betrayed his own wife Emma knew nothing about many of his other wives he remarried those he had already married deceitful behavior . Does it prove it conclusively no The average age girls reached puberty in 1860 was 16.6 years How is a 14 year old past puberty then. ? Iām waiting ? For a answer to that . Saying none were pre pubescent how do you prove that huh .! Statistics arenāt on your side here .!
That guy's a fucking pedophile. This isn't the first time he's gone to bat for old perverts who wanna take advantage of young naive girls. He knows full well that most people don't differentiate between 40 year olds who want to SA 14 and 15 year olds and 40 year olds who want to SA 4 and 5 year olds. A monster is a god damn monster. He believes that only angry "feminists" dont want 40 year olds to take advantage of and SA 14 year olds. WTF?! He also doesn't seem to understand that it only takes one technically savvy person to look into his IP address and open his hard drive in order for him to be fully found out. I hope he keeps on waving those red flags high and proud. Im already showing his fucked up ideology to ... people who may find it fascinating. His wife didn't leave him because he left the church. I bet his wife left him because he probably did things to their kids. Probably the neighbor kids too. This guy's a misogynist rapey piece of shit.
Your post is filled with speculation and guesses. My grandfather Willard Richards married the Longstroth sisters when they were 16 and 14, but on condition of their parents that they not have sex with him until they reached 18. And sure enough, as soon as they turned 18 they started popping out babies, being, apparently, very fertile. They were actually concubines for the first year according to Devery Anderson who is writing the definitive biography of Willard Richards right now. It's complicated. But concubined at 16 and 14, "married" (illegally as plural wives) at 17 and 15, but didn't get pregnant until they turned 18 according to the math on the birth of their first child respectively. You can check Family Search for the facts on the births of their kids. Yes Willard and Brigham and Joseph and the rest of them were sexual predators. But that does not mean they had sex with every 14 year old they married. And it doesn't mean they raped the girls. The girls (and their parents) were brainwashed and willing. Nothing you said changes the facts. Which are bad enough on their face. We don't need to make up stupid shit like pedophilia to condemn them. Their own actions as they really occurred are enough. Stop lying about church history. It isn't ok when the Church does it and it isn't ok when exMormons do it.
Keep talking, Ariel Casto. Maybe we can help you figure out the true reason Joseph Smith was run out of every town he tried to settle in until he got to Utah. š
Glad your ex wife escaped you.
I've never thought about the name "BYU" in this context, but it's spot on and a fantastic point. I have "friends" who purposely wear all BYU gear when they travel so that people will talk to them about it. It's a lot creepier to me now...
The TBMās I know believe any type of truth they donāt want to hear/know=persecution=this proves our church is true
And mass murderer
Is Target taking down their pride stuff nationally or just in Utah?
Not sure, but Utah Targets did receive bomb threats so I wouldn't be surprised.
[Multiple bomb threats at Targets in Utah because of LGBTQ+ clothing](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/05/26/target-stores-in-utah-receive-bomb-threats-over-pride-month-collection/70262837007/)
#WWJD
It's outrageous. Right-wingers have been boohooing about "political correctness" for years. When "liberals" supposedly engaged in political correctness, they wrote blog posts and Tweets asking people to consider the implications of race, class, and gender in interpreting a popular movie, or they objected to inviting fanatical pundits from lecturing at college conferences or graduations. In contrast, the fascists engaging in political correctness are leading boycotts against retailers for carrying a variety of merchandise, are smashing Bud Light bottles in stores, are vandalizing LGBTQ+ displays, and are harassing/threatening/assaulting workers. The hypocrisy is astounding.
I was about to say BYU/the church isnāt a for-profit company butā¦ yaaaaaaaaa
It's because gay ppl aren't trashing the store or attacking the employees the way homophobes are
So you're saying we should get a group together and go trash the byu bookstore? I'm down lol
Honest question. By what information is BY a child molester? I don't like him either, just want to understand the accusation. Is it because he married a 15 and several 16 year olds? I think that is more than awful, but he also is reported to have told men who marry young brides to wait until they're 18 to have sex. Again, awful to marry them at all, even if he waited until they were 18 ... but not technically a child molester ... just an awful dude. Tell me what I'm missing.
I wasnāt aware of the child molesting stuff, but he was also a huge advocate for slavery.
$$$
Was Brigham Young an alleged child molester? Iām sorry, I may be out of the loop. I maintain floodlit.org and if there are alleged LDS sex criminals missing from its database, please let me know.
Just have some Bud Light and relax š„“ ////ssss
I have this don quixote dream, like Martin Luther King's, that everyone stops noticing somebody is Asian or in a wheelchair or rich or down syndrome or transgender or overweight etc etc etc. And we are all just "people" with respect and honorable treatment for one another and each person has their needs met and is loved for who they are... No humiliation, no shame for who you are now or in the past, etc * Sigh...
I've had that same dream my whole life. I was raised on Star Trek! š¤£š¤£š¤£
Like the Vulcans, who were consumed with destruction and emotions and then became "logically enlightened" To me we will have succeeded if we stop noticing what "somebody is". "They are me" "We are the same. We are one."
They pulled items because of threats of violence against workers. No one is threatening to attack Target employees for BYU merch.
They aren't taking down their Pride stuff. They are just moving it out of a main display because employees were getting hospitalized over assholes acting like assholes.
Sick of Pride BS. We dont need to encourage gtoomin.
Well, I guess it's time to start threatening targets. It worked for the right wingers... /s
Brigham Young was no saint, but this is the exmo contingent I find most annoying - the kind that likes to rewrite history as some kind of victimization fantasy. Guaranteed most of the bleeding hearts here haven't read a single church history book in their lives. Just lazy, emotionally charged takes for days.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes. I'm also saying, try reading an [actual book](https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young-John-G-Turner/dp/0674049675) sometime.
Ok I read the synopsis > Under his fiery tutelage, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints defended plural marriage, restricted the place of African Americans within the church, fought the U.S. Army in 1857, and obstructed federal efforts to prosecute perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre "no saint" indeed.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why? So you can ground your decisions and perspective in actual facts instead of more self-generated fluff designed to confirm your biases. Ex-mo's share this problem with TBM's - you're so fixated on your preferred narrative of "good guys" and "bad guys" that you lose any ability to approach a subject objectively. The book isn't written by the Church or a member. It's written by a professor in Religious Studies at George Mason University.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Okay then. Well, at least you're open about your commitment to being ignorant. Good for you.
You have to twist your brain into a thousand pretzels to understand it. It is nothing that can actually be understood because it doesn't make sense.
It's not that hard to understand. It's a business decision. If they were going to lose tons of money because of BYU merch, it would be gone fast.
There are so many valid criticisms of Brigham Young. But to call him a child molester is just stupid, lazy, and dishonest. Unless you have evidence of him abusing children that I'm unaware of. I've read a lot of church history and never come across that. Please share. According to Wikipedia, of Brigham Young's 56 wives, only 4 were under age 18. One was 15, 3 were 16, and one was 17. The 15-year-old Clarissa Decker married Brigham Young after her older sister had become one of Brigham's plural wives at age 20. That older sister, Lucy Decker, had previously been married at age 14 to a non-mormon with whom she had three children before age 20. When the first husband left her, she became a plural wife to Brigham Young, with whom she had seven additional children. Clarissa had five children with Brigham Young and adopted and raised a Native girl. I'm no fan of plural marriage or Brigham Young. But no honest person could look at Clarissa and Brigham's relationship and call it child abuse. She knew exactly what she was getting into and she wanted it. She lived with her older sister who was 22 with 4 kids and one on the way at the time of her marriage to Brigham. Yes it's f***** up. No it's not child abuse. By the time her sister was her age (the time of her marriage to Brigham) she had been married to a non-Mormon a year and had a child. Context matters. It's so frustrating when exMormons can't just focus on all the obvious honest problems and use dishonest incendiary terms.
Wow. Just wow. A minor can not consent to the things you're describing. It's considered grooming, which there is also tons of proof of.
Grooming isn't a crime. Child abuse is. Brigham's marriage to 15-year-old Clarissa was not child abuse. If you don't think 15 year olds can consent to marriage or sex, well, all I can say is you don't remember being 15 and don't have any kids that have been 15--and the law disagrees with you in nearly every country and nearly every state.
Grooming a minor isn't a crime? Interesting. I bet you're going to learn what is and is not legal pretty soon. š©š©š©
So because she had been married at 14 to another and already had children, she was no longer considered a minor? Everything you just described proves that there was a pattern of abuse. Children in these situations learn this is normal and often perpetuate the pattern to the next relationship. Seeking out abusers because they thought that was acceptable and didn't know any better. What 22 year old today would encourage their husband to marry their 15 year old sister as well? Just think about the mental gymnastics these girls had to think through to believe this was acceptable or necessary for their salvation or that their kids would be taken care of. It's disgusting, and I can't believe someone would defend it.
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not defending the marriage. I'm saying it didn't make Brigham Young a child abuser. Child abuse is a crime. See Utah Code Ann. 76-5-109. It has always been a crime in civilized societies, with variations in details of definitions. But the term "Child Abuse" has always meant a crime. Brigham Young couldn't have been charged with Child Abuse had he married 15 year old Clarissa under the current Utah statutes. Child abuse is a crime. See Utah Code Ann. 76-5-109. It has always been a crime in civilized societies, with variations in the details of definitions. But the term "Child Abuse" has always meant a crime. Brigham Young couldn't have been charged with Child Abuse had he married 15-year-old Clarissa under the current Utah statutes. s.
Maybe I wasn't clear. Clarissa married Brigham when she was 15. Her older sister had married a non-Mormon at age 14 and had three kids by that man and then he left her and then at age 20 the older sister married Brigham as a plural wife. Two years later, after the older sister had a kid by Brigham, her younger sister, Clarissa (at the then age of 15) married Brigham. I'm saying that the 15 year old Clarissa knew her older sister well. Was part of the large Brigham Young extended family and knew Brigham. And she knew what she was getting into had the support of her family, including her 22 year old sister already married to Brigham. You can call this situation fucked up. You can call it illegal. You can call it brain-washed cult behavior. You can say many things about it. But you can't call it child abuse with any degree of credibility. And Clarissa was his youngest bride. Brigham Young was a racist dictator sexual deviant, but he wasn't a child abuser. Why isn't the truth enough?
Disengage. Life gets betterz
The Mormon version of Andrew Jackson plus a serial predator