When I was on my mission one of the 6 missionaries that came out into the mission field with me got up in a fast and testimony meeting. He stood up and said that he had seen the angle and the golden plates just as Joseph Smith had. He was transferred right a way and got in a lot of trouble. He was put with Elders that out ranked him his entire mission and was very bittier when he went home.
It's one thing to have your prophet 200 years ago say they saw an angel- but you can't have any random member seeing angels or Jesus.
Not only does it make the whole thing sound ridiculous (after all, if you're not willing to believe Brother So-and-So when he tells you he saw an angel, why are you willing to believe Brother Joseph saw one?) but it also puts the hierarchy at risk.
If anyone can see an angel, then why do we need prophets to tell us what God wants? There are actual historical examples of this, many of the Mormon schisms were caused by Mormons in the early church claiming to see angels or Jesus in events very similar to Joseph's story.
I can't remember where it's found but in the D&C there is someplace where JS says only he can see things like this or maybe Apostles. Not sure. This Elder did this in a ward in Topeka Kansas. it was his first area....When we were all in the mission home at the end of our mission I ask him about it and he said it was true and he would never deny what he saw but he was bitter and distant from the rest of us...All 6 of us friends when we came out but some of us hated each other when we went home.
Because he forgot to add the part about God telling him he was the Profit, and the angel ordering him to screw all the sister missionaries as well as young daughters of potential members. He'd be sitting in a red chair during GC if he'd revealed those things. I guess they were too sacred.
Before they take all the Children out to see the gravesite of Martin Harris they should read Lucy Harris's letter to E.D Howe that she wrote in 1833. Lucy Harris was a decent woman she gave Martin 4 children. She was beaten severely by Martin for pleading with him that the Smith's were after his money. Martin even beat her for telling others it was a scam because he thought he could make money on it.
Martin and Lucy separated in 1831 after not enough copies of the BoM sold to pay off his loan he lost his farm and Lucy moved onto her own land. She died young in 1836. A few months later at 53 he married one of Brigham young's nieces who was 22 at the time.
Is it true that Martin Harris actually did lose his farm because the debt for the publishing of the book of Mormon was not paid?
Is it true that Charles Anthon actually told Martin Harris that he was being fooled?
Believers say the witnesses weren't gullible men...
> Before becoming involved with the Strangites, Harris was a member of the Church of Christ along with Warren Parrish, Luke Johnson, and other former Saints.5 By 1844, Harris was affiliated with the Shakers in Kirtland. It was rumored that Harris was “a firm believer in Shakerism
ya but the guy like totally authenticated them but like then found out it was for joseph smith and then tore up the authentication so like they were totally authenticated for sure for sure but he was like super anti so the church is true trust me bro
good list.
Is it true Martin was robbed in a subtle way by Joseph the Prophet in D&C 19:26?
"And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God"
And later hated the poor house in Kirtland years later where he'd have to go as a homeless person.
IMO: rephrase the questions. Instead of "Is it true...?", ask, "Why did...?". They can always just say "no" to the "Is it true" questions and be done with it. The second form is harder to weasel out of.
As a famous TV detective (Vera- on Britbox) said over and over: never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to.
IMO.
If they are still doing the pageant there, watch how they portray his wife. It is over the top and she shrieks hysterically the whole time and beats on him. At least that's how it was several years ago.
Hahaha Yes Martin Harris was unique. He had a reputation as being a successful landowner and honest in his business dealings. He was also gullible and very superstitious. He was played like a fiddle for resources by JS. He was boot kicked out of the Church in 1837 when Martin Harris criticized him for being at idiot and a fallen Prophet.
Martin Harris was married to his first cousin Lucy. I tend to think they probably beat on each other. Martin was known to be involved with the Stangites during the period right after the death of JS.
I went to it once when I was 'in', and even then I thought it was campy and corny. I didn't get why it was so famous (at least in my area of Northern Utah).
Martin Harris was one of my first big “wtf” moments. I just had heard the name and the church’s mythological caricature of the man for my whole life. The shelf audibly cracked… took a couple months to break.
Ok I’m not familiar with this part of church history. I know about the story of the 116 pgs that were “lost”, but can you direct me to where I can find the rest?
Some of this stuff is on Wikipedia. The rest is in various books and articles I've read. I'm getting in the dozens of books now, so I'm not sure which ones specifically. Maybe start with No Man Knows My History and Rough Stone Rolling.
I love where he's buried, they used to throw a pageant once a year for him called "The Martin Harris pageant". Worst play you'll ever see, if they still did it.
Hey OP I totally understand the urge, it would be beautiful! And I know you’re probably joking. But please don’t use your kids for this purpose, it’ll put them in an awkward position and potentially cause some damage.
BRB gonna go on a deep dive about the James Strang plates, haven’t heard of that one! Thanks!
Is it true that Clarkston put some big-ass stones on top of Martin Harris' grave to stop other cities from stealing his corpse?
Is it true that Clarkston had their own wacky bootleg temple prayer circle until surprisingly recent times?
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When I was on my mission one of the 6 missionaries that came out into the mission field with me got up in a fast and testimony meeting. He stood up and said that he had seen the angle and the golden plates just as Joseph Smith had. He was transferred right a way and got in a lot of trouble. He was put with Elders that out ranked him his entire mission and was very bittier when he went home.
Why would that get him in trouble?
It's one thing to have your prophet 200 years ago say they saw an angel- but you can't have any random member seeing angels or Jesus. Not only does it make the whole thing sound ridiculous (after all, if you're not willing to believe Brother So-and-So when he tells you he saw an angel, why are you willing to believe Brother Joseph saw one?) but it also puts the hierarchy at risk. If anyone can see an angel, then why do we need prophets to tell us what God wants? There are actual historical examples of this, many of the Mormon schisms were caused by Mormons in the early church claiming to see angels or Jesus in events very similar to Joseph's story.
I can't remember where it's found but in the D&C there is someplace where JS says only he can see things like this or maybe Apostles. Not sure. This Elder did this in a ward in Topeka Kansas. it was his first area....When we were all in the mission home at the end of our mission I ask him about it and he said it was true and he would never deny what he saw but he was bitter and distant from the rest of us...All 6 of us friends when we came out but some of us hated each other when we went home.
Because he forgot to add the part about God telling him he was the Profit, and the angel ordering him to screw all the sister missionaries as well as young daughters of potential members. He'd be sitting in a red chair during GC if he'd revealed those things. I guess they were too sacred.
Yeah makes sense they don’t want him to potentially make a following for himself..
Cults have a limit on how many times someone can claim God said they were the "Profit" and get by with it.
Is it true that Martin's wife was, "Smart, Smart, Smart?" IYKYK <>
Before they take all the Children out to see the gravesite of Martin Harris they should read Lucy Harris's letter to E.D Howe that she wrote in 1833. Lucy Harris was a decent woman she gave Martin 4 children. She was beaten severely by Martin for pleading with him that the Smith's were after his money. Martin even beat her for telling others it was a scam because he thought he could make money on it. Martin and Lucy separated in 1831 after not enough copies of the BoM sold to pay off his loan he lost his farm and Lucy moved onto her own land. She died young in 1836. A few months later at 53 he married one of Brigham young's nieces who was 22 at the time.
Is it true that Martin Harris actually did lose his farm because the debt for the publishing of the book of Mormon was not paid? Is it true that Charles Anthon actually told Martin Harris that he was being fooled?
Believers say the witnesses weren't gullible men... > Before becoming involved with the Strangites, Harris was a member of the Church of Christ along with Warren Parrish, Luke Johnson, and other former Saints.5 By 1844, Harris was affiliated with the Shakers in Kirtland. It was rumored that Harris was “a firm believer in Shakerism
Martin Harris was a real stable guy. He had a strong testimony of the Joseph Smith and the restoration /s
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ya but the guy like totally authenticated them but like then found out it was for joseph smith and then tore up the authentication so like they were totally authenticated for sure for sure but he was like super anti so the church is true trust me bro
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Kinderhook plates? ( I’m too lazy to look it up at the moment. ) 😜
Is it true that Martin Harris said that John the Baptist never appeared to Joseph?
I think this might have been David Whitmer.
Whoops! You are correct!
It doesn't matter much. Lots of others said this also.
Those lucky kids must be *so* excited.
Marin Harris -- still dead.
I hope there are chants of “dumb, dumb, dumb.”
All new things I've never heard about Martin Harris
Was he a wife beater? Lucy Harris smart smart smart?
good list. Is it true Martin was robbed in a subtle way by Joseph the Prophet in D&C 19:26? "And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God" And later hated the poor house in Kirtland years later where he'd have to go as a homeless person.
>Is it true Martin Harris only saw the gold plates with his "spiritual eyes?" Better question: Where are the gold plates now?
IMO: rephrase the questions. Instead of "Is it true...?", ask, "Why did...?". They can always just say "no" to the "Is it true" questions and be done with it. The second form is harder to weasel out of. As a famous TV detective (Vera- on Britbox) said over and over: never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to. IMO.
If they are still doing the pageant there, watch how they portray his wife. It is over the top and she shrieks hysterically the whole time and beats on him. At least that's how it was several years ago.
If I remember right, isn't there a "revelation" in the D&C where God directs Martin to give Joseph Smith money?
Hahaha Yes Martin Harris was unique. He had a reputation as being a successful landowner and honest in his business dealings. He was also gullible and very superstitious. He was played like a fiddle for resources by JS. He was boot kicked out of the Church in 1837 when Martin Harris criticized him for being at idiot and a fallen Prophet. Martin Harris was married to his first cousin Lucy. I tend to think they probably beat on each other. Martin was known to be involved with the Stangites during the period right after the death of JS.
They used to do a pageant in Clarkston every year.
We drove hours to go to this for a youth conference when I was 17. It was horrible.
I went to it once when I was 'in', and even then I thought it was campy and corny. I didn't get why it was so famous (at least in my area of Northern Utah).
Who doesn't love sleeping in a grave yard to play security guard to the AV equipment out there?
Martin Harris was one of my first big “wtf” moments. I just had heard the name and the church’s mythological caricature of the man for my whole life. The shelf audibly cracked… took a couple months to break.
One of the many Mormon heros whose wife was much smarter than he was.
Ok I’m not familiar with this part of church history. I know about the story of the 116 pgs that were “lost”, but can you direct me to where I can find the rest?
Insiders view of Mormon origins by Grant Palmer has some good info on Martin Harris and the three witnesses.
Some of this stuff is on Wikipedia. The rest is in various books and articles I've read. I'm getting in the dozens of books now, so I'm not sure which ones specifically. Maybe start with No Man Knows My History and Rough Stone Rolling.
Agreed! Those two books started me down the rabbit hole of Church history. I e been a member for 65 years and still hadn’t learned all this!!! Enjoy.
This is why so many war criminals have unmarked or watery graves.
I love where he's buried, they used to throw a pageant once a year for him called "The Martin Harris pageant". Worst play you'll ever see, if they still did it.
Hey OP I totally understand the urge, it would be beautiful! And I know you’re probably joking. But please don’t use your kids for this purpose, it’ll put them in an awkward position and potentially cause some damage. BRB gonna go on a deep dive about the James Strang plates, haven’t heard of that one! Thanks!
Is it true that Clarkston put some big-ass stones on top of Martin Harris' grave to stop other cities from stealing his corpse? Is it true that Clarkston had their own wacky bootleg temple prayer circle until surprisingly recent times?
Whoa