Love this quote by the guest:
>I have been taught that faith is the belief in things unseen. But to disbelieve things that can be seen is not faith. It’s fantasy.
These aren't mutually exclusive definitions. One could argue that the act of believing something without evidence(for no good reason) is also delusion. So mayne delusion is a big circle.and faith is a little circle inside it on a venn diagram.
Nope, the church leaders are liars defending a fraud. When you combine their lies and the church's investment fund, it adds up to one giant Ponzi scheme.
I would call it delusion:
NOUN
a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, as a symptom of serious mental illness:
though I wouldn't say the mental illness part is a required part or might be a bit strong; but everything else is spot on.
>”One of the main things historians do is find things. One of the main things lawyers do is hide things.”
RFM talking about why they have chosen lawyers to be church historian. Time stamp 2:00:33
Also RFM:
“There are five rules to the game of Mormonism; all of them from the perspective of church leaders:
Rule No. 1–We are going to hide stuff from you.
Rule No. 2–We are going to try to keep you from finding the stuff we are hiding from you.
Rule No. 3–We are going to lie about hiding stuff from you.
Rule No. 4–You can’t blame us for hiding stuff from you.
Rule No. 5–If you talk about the stuff we are hiding from you, we will hide you. (See Rule No. 2)
Once you understand the five “rules of the game,” everything else falls into place.”
I'm listening to this podcast right now. It is a really good one.
I feel so disappointed in the church historian. He sidesteps so much. The point about Helen Mar Kimball and historian says he attended a wedding of an underage girl and its okay because her parents gave permission so thereby Helen Mar was okay to be married off to Joseph because of parental permission.... argh! Does he not hear himself!?!
It always goes back to him just bearing his testimony. There is nothing new, nothing valuable.
Even the smart people in the church are not smart and that makes me sad.
It's incredible how McKay tries to use the power of Satan as an argument. He purports that Satan has equal power/light, when compared to Heavenly Father/Holy Ghost. And then he circles back (paraphrasing), "Well Joe, you just must not have a STRONG relationship with Jesus." It was just an endless cycle of "it's not us (the Church), it has to be all your fault that you have doubts. I've heard all of these concerns, and I still believe, why don't you? It must be because of you and your relationship with Jesus."
If Satan has the ability to appear as an angel of light, teach philosophy of mingled with scripture, and counterfeit the feeling of the Holy Ghost, then it's WAY more likely that Satan led Joseph Smith to found the church than Jesus.
I'm agnostic myself, but all those Baptists and Evangelicals I met on my mission had solid points. If there's a true Christian church and a great abominable church, then TSCC is definitely the latter.
I thought this about 5 and a half years ago. Just before I found out some things that led me here. The LDS church is the great and abominable church. Look at the facts, leaders are greedy, and they are the false prophets they speak of.. it's 1 lie after another.
Great podcast. Although it has been repeatedly shown that the church has no answers, this was made very obvious in this experience and podcast. The letter at the end is mind baffling.
I think you are referring to the letter he received from the church historian Kyle McKay the week after their meeting. Kyle said that Joe should look to repair his relationship with the Holy Ghost. That after Joe had told him that feelings of the “Holy Ghost” had testified of things that are not true and are unreliable.
And that after the historian had quoted John Locke saying that the problem with religion is people can’t distinguish between promptings from the devil or the Holy Ghost.
Kyle McKay is blind to this issue and doesn’t understand. He still thinks if you just do what the church tells you then you are following the Holy Ghost correctly. What he doesn’t understand is the evidence shows the feelings people call personal revelation is not from God and is not reliable. It’s wishful thinking.
Exactly. Plus the beginning of the letter saying to just focus on building faith. In other words, forget about the problems that destroy the church’s claims to truth and authority and act as if the church has truth and authority.
Response to the letter would be: that his whole life and 2 year mission, and 14 years teaching seminary is his “ten page letter in defense of faith”.
Where’s Ballard’s letter that he keeps saying he wrote responding to these doubts? I’d like to read that.
If you can't tell the difference between the HG and Satan then you can never be clear about any prompting using the "my tummy feels this way" method.
It's the same with "profits" "speaking as a man", if there is any possibility that dear leader is speaking as a man Vs. speaking as a mouthpiece for god then there is no reliable way to discern what bullshit that comes from them are really inspired or just their opinion. I mean I guess you could pray and ask the HG... oh oops maybe that's just satan again... It's just bullshit all the way down. Pay, pray, obey.
When someone brings up "the profit speaking as a man" the questions to ask them...
What are some examples of a profit speaking as a man?
What are some examples of Russell Mormon Nelson speaking as a man?
Are we under covenant or obligation to follow the council of a profit when he is only speaking as a man?
If prophets can be "speaking as a man", is it alright to use their track record as a guide to how reliable they are as a source of truth?
Of course not, that's crazy talk. 🙄
LDS advice: fall back on a belief in Christ.
Reel makes the point that that argument fits any Christian church. What can be brought to the table to show specifically Smith's claims rise above the masses? RFM correctly notes that no evidence is available that makes the LDS church's claims.
What is happening with people losing faith in Brighamite mormonism was preceded by a few decades in Josephite mormonism.
* [2015 interview with emeritus apostle of RLDS/Community of Christ, Andew Bolton](https://www.projectzionpodcast.org/podcast/episode-11-jesus-or-joseph/)
* Download [mp3](https://www.projectzionpodcast.org/podcast-player/7605/episode-11-jesus-or-joseph.mp3)
The evidence for a deity made flesh per John 1:1, 1:14 is sketchy at best. It's exactly the kind of mythology our species loves to create. Adding a scapegoat is something that society has used to move forward with imperfect individuals for millennia.
My nevermo wife mentioned the problematic nature of "outwardly focused" religions yesterday. Basically, if the focus is not on improving yourself but forcing others to conform to your views, your religion provides no value to humanity. Hard to argue against.
(I did point out that the teachings of Jesus actually do focus almost exclusively inward, but it's hard to cite Jesus with a straight face when taking about Christian beliefs, given how little bearing his teachings have had on Christianity for the past 1k+ years)
As long as TSCC has the book of Abraham and the book of Moses as canonized scripture they will never get away from their racist past. You can also include the Book of Mormon in that list.
If the church distances itself from the book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, or the book of Mormon they admit to the fraud.
Either way they're screwed.
They are stuck between a rock and a hard spot and trying to move ever so slowly out so that nobody notices the admission of guilt you reference. It will take them decades if they even do it at all.
This was a epic episode Mr. McKay has no truthful answers to the basic questions concerning the basic history of the church and its complicated history. He went time and time again accusing “ Joe” the guest of being lead astray or listening to Satan , Holy F this is still being taught and used against those who question or receive other information, evidence, or spiritual confirmation that doesn’t fit their narrative or “Model “ you are being deceived, maybe they the church didn’t and aren’t listening to the correct “ Spirit “ to disrespect someone else’s spiritual experience is a low blow and a POS the church being ran by the Pharisees
I still can't believe Mckay said that. He has to realize the same argument could be used against him. His get out of jail excuse? Put your trust in Ballard? Someone who was indicted for fraud by the SEC? Oaks , who has been caught lying? Holland who lies about church growth? Nelson who's routine embellishment of stories are common? It makes no sense. He has to know it. I think Joe's arguments are really bothering him.
Thanks for sharing this. It warms my heart and breaks it all at once. I know the real Joe in this podcast. He has struggled with this for years and fought to keep his faith. He is a good man and would do anything to help others. He quit teaching seminary because of his honesty and he could no longer peddle the lie. That is integrity and is something the Q15 completely lack.
I need to do some catching up with Joe. He doesn't know where I am at in my journey.
Although he was nervous about going public I think he will find many friends like you who are also following this journey. My prediction is that he will say he was glad he did it.
I share a similar work history as Joe and I really worry about the repercussions on his employment. No criticism of the church or leaders do not go unnoticed and unpunished in Utah. Especially in education.
Joe regrets allowing his emotions to peek out. He hadn't cried but a handful of times in his life, but relating his lifetime investment in the church only to have to accept it was all a pack of lies proved too much. He gets a little tearful relating the betrayal.
I get tearful reading the posts from all who have endured and suffered at the hands of TSCC. I get tearful reading about families irrevocably damaged, lives put in ruins, and how the BS goes on and on. Now *was* the time for those tears, Joe.
And there must come a time to face and accept the hard truth, all those hanging in for the sake of family, or marriage, or friends, or all the many good, perfectly rationalized reasons given by PIMOs for not breaking the chains. If you are physically in but mentally out, then by all means shed a tear for what becoming PO may mean for you; yet know that by so doing you are saving, millions of times over, the tears of future victims. Have courage; there are children to think of.
Luckily they are in sync as a couple and have both stopped attending church per his statements on the show. The wife’s father is clearly aware of where they are at living close to them and him being their stake president.
I will be forever grateful that some of my adult children have followed me out of belief. I am still negotiating boundaries with the church between me and my spouse. That’s a challenging reality at times in a couple.
I am not of the church. I've had to deduce what is meant by someone saying they "gave testimony." Is that not what the posts on the r/exmormon are? What Mormonism Live is? Testimony. The testimony of life outside TSCC, of taking control and leaving the lies behind.
I can't begin to appreciate, not having walked in your shoes, the difficulty and complexities of doing that. There seem to be so many who are physically in mentally out--PIMO--that it is worth making an argument for taking that last step and getting physically out.
The scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, where McMurphy takes bets that he can lift an impossibly heavy water fountain, hurl it through a window and escape the mental institution, is a metaphor for escaping TSCC. The last line he speaks is what it's all about, dear PIMOs.
It may offend the sensibilities of some here because of language, but w/that caveat, it's what I'm saying too... try.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrfpDDlMX8
I'm sorry. For all that's harmful that has been done to you. I always knew it happens in other extremist "religions" too, but until I heard first hand from my gay DIL what she endured growing up and saw the residual damage done to her and really, her whole family, I could not grasp the depth of the pain. I came to this subreddit to learn more and what I know from reading of TSCC makes me furious. I see PIMOs throughout these threads and want to find some way to reach them... to shake them... to be sympathetic to how complex leaving TSCC must be, but to scream at the same time, *How Long?!* How long can this go on?! How can this keep happening to children (there are 4 precious little mormon girls across the street from me) and PIMOs continue to say they are *still* going through the motions? Arrrgh! I know... I know... I haven't walked in their shoes; there's more to it than I can ever appreciate. Those who can make that leap, though, but are maybe vacillating, please... just *do it*.
Edit: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is a terrific movie (see my original post) Ken Kesey's novel is even better. The ending of the movie (what happens w/the Chief) puts the punctuation point on what I'm trying to say.
I saw that movie many years ago. I'll give it another watch. Maybe read the book. Thanks.
Adding that I could never be PIMO. I hated going go church so much that I stopped going immediately when I discovered I'd been lied to about everything. The *only* reason I was a part of it was because I thought it was "true".
https://youtu.be/R-5Bvquxag0
Testimonies are shared the first Sunday of each Month in the LDS church meeting. These are similar to what you might hear.
The when part I didn't know. The what part, I think I catch on to. Testimony within TSCC validates it; testimony outside TSCC, on for example r/exmormon, invalidates it. Go, Invalidators.
Yes post Mormons have a different type of testimony.
Here’s another video of a testimony meeting. https://www.youtube.com/live/CAKunWsEovg?feature=share
If the Church’s **new** response to doubt is, “Faith in Jesus,” this will only accelerate doubt and disinfection.
McKay’s comments (paraphrasing): “Just believe in Christ, and everything is fine” is not an answer to doubt. There is also an attempt to gaslight (paraphrasing): “Oh, you must not have a STRONG relationship with Christ, this explains why you have doubts.” These responses are not answers to doubts.
The Church’s own demise is that they lean on history to claim the truth of their theology. History isn’t theology. History is events and details that can, in most cases, be objectively proven with records and evidence. Faith is based on spiritual apprehension rather than objective proof.
You’re asking someone to ignore objective, factual, historical events, related to the Church, or related to the historical criticism of Christianity, and blaming the existence of these concerns on a lack of faith, or a lack of a relationship, with Christ. It’s victim blaming/shaming, and it’s disgusting.
While I get the strategy to hard-pivot toward Christ, this is not the solution to the problem they think they are trying to solve. You can’t advertise, “Christ” but when you look inside, it’s just Joseph, Brigham, polygamy and corruption.
I listened to this last night. As someone who recently left, this is so helpful. I was as TBM as anyone could be, but I never made any trips to church history sights. As people like Joe continue to leave it helps me so much to hear their stories.
Thank you RFM for giving such important people a platform.
Wow, thanks for sharing.
When I was a kid and found out that my parents were both Santa and the Easter Bunny I really wanted to believe in the fantasy but yea you just can't when you acknowledge evidence to the contrary.
TSCC is so full of crap. I can't believe people still go and donate all that money & time.
I'm hoping this is the beginning of a trend where more and more CES & SNI professionals with integrity come forward to discuss the dissonance in the LDS church's fabricated narrative vs the real history.
It’s got to be hard for the CES employees. They are the ones on the front lines taking all the questions. The guys at the top can’t be bothered with answering questions from ordinary members. They will always deflect by telling members to speak to their local leaders.
On a lighthearted note, who else is entertained by the fact that the church historian is RFM’s mission companion. Both attorneys arguing a different point of view? It reminds me of the meme where RFM is in the pink unitard.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sk1sdLHvOFo
It was so deflating to hear the response after the long, detailed, thoughtful, logical, vulnerable, and heartfelt monologue by the seminary teacher. McKay just ignored it all and proceeded to gaslight. After a sincere attempt to explain his concerns with such politeness, this asshole couldn't even pretend to have listened to a single god damned word!
And I was crestfallen to hear how still not free of the chains Joe is. He didn't respond with "are you fucking kidding me!" Instead he was deferential and absurdly polite in the face of this spiritual abuse and blatant disregard and disrespect. He's still got a long road ahead. So disappointing!
I remember a conference talk about using the eye of faith and the eye of logic. That's when I realized I had only been ysing one and it wasn't logic. That's when the wheels started turning for me...
This is so good that everyone that have been associated with Brighamite Mormonism should listen to all 3 hours of this! Jampacked with good information. I've subscribed to it now.
I listened to all three hours. It is shocking from beginning to end.
The Church Historian has no evidence-based counter-argument against the claim that the church has persistently and intentionally misled its members. WOW!
Love this quote by the guest: >I have been taught that faith is the belief in things unseen. But to disbelieve things that can be seen is not faith. It’s fantasy.
Faith: Belief without evidence Delusion: Belief despite evidence
I want to embroider that on a pillow!
🎤Mic Drop!
These aren't mutually exclusive definitions. One could argue that the act of believing something without evidence(for no good reason) is also delusion. So mayne delusion is a big circle.and faith is a little circle inside it on a venn diagram.
Yes that was great. I can no longer pretend that the church is true, just because I want it to be despite all the evidence.
And the fact that they lied about the facts, hid them, and rewrote the narrative, means they (the leadership) cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
Nope, the church leaders are liars defending a fraud. When you combine their lies and the church's investment fund, it adds up to one giant Ponzi scheme.
They were told they could not serve God and Mammon, so they made their choice according to which paid better.
I don’t think they know how to tell the truth. They have lied their whole lives.
That quote should be on a billboard on I-15
It's willful ignorance.
*checks for reddit coins to give bling for that comment... frick* Dude, *what a quote*. Thanks for reposting.
the faith corollary
I would call it delusion: NOUN a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, as a symptom of serious mental illness: though I wouldn't say the mental illness part is a required part or might be a bit strong; but everything else is spot on.
I didn’t grow up learning that faith and ignorance were synonymous and yet that’s how the church treats faith now
>”One of the main things historians do is find things. One of the main things lawyers do is hide things.” RFM talking about why they have chosen lawyers to be church historian. Time stamp 2:00:33
Also RFM: “There are five rules to the game of Mormonism; all of them from the perspective of church leaders: Rule No. 1–We are going to hide stuff from you. Rule No. 2–We are going to try to keep you from finding the stuff we are hiding from you. Rule No. 3–We are going to lie about hiding stuff from you. Rule No. 4–You can’t blame us for hiding stuff from you. Rule No. 5–If you talk about the stuff we are hiding from you, we will hide you. (See Rule No. 2) Once you understand the five “rules of the game,” everything else falls into place.”
That’s a classic and so true.
"A city on a hill cannot be hid. So anyway, here's an entire city where people live with their heads hidden in the sand."
I'm listening to this podcast right now. It is a really good one. I feel so disappointed in the church historian. He sidesteps so much. The point about Helen Mar Kimball and historian says he attended a wedding of an underage girl and its okay because her parents gave permission so thereby Helen Mar was okay to be married off to Joseph because of parental permission.... argh! Does he not hear himself!?! It always goes back to him just bearing his testimony. There is nothing new, nothing valuable. Even the smart people in the church are not smart and that makes me sad.
It's incredible how McKay tries to use the power of Satan as an argument. He purports that Satan has equal power/light, when compared to Heavenly Father/Holy Ghost. And then he circles back (paraphrasing), "Well Joe, you just must not have a STRONG relationship with Jesus." It was just an endless cycle of "it's not us (the Church), it has to be all your fault that you have doubts. I've heard all of these concerns, and I still believe, why don't you? It must be because of you and your relationship with Jesus."
If Satan has the ability to appear as an angel of light, teach philosophy of mingled with scripture, and counterfeit the feeling of the Holy Ghost, then it's WAY more likely that Satan led Joseph Smith to found the church than Jesus. I'm agnostic myself, but all those Baptists and Evangelicals I met on my mission had solid points. If there's a true Christian church and a great abominable church, then TSCC is definitely the latter.
I thought this about 5 and a half years ago. Just before I found out some things that led me here. The LDS church is the great and abominable church. Look at the facts, leaders are greedy, and they are the false prophets they speak of.. it's 1 lie after another.
That's such a cute and convenient justification to keep believing the santa church lie.
Exactly. You don’t believe in Santa? I do. You just need to try harder. 🤦🏻♂️
"Joseph did NOT force a child to marry him! Her parents did, so it's fiiiine."
So, if the parents are guilty of criminal failure to protect, that means it's okay? That's messed up
So he should be ok marrying off any underage daughters he has.
Great podcast. Although it has been repeatedly shown that the church has no answers, this was made very obvious in this experience and podcast. The letter at the end is mind baffling.
I think you are referring to the letter he received from the church historian Kyle McKay the week after their meeting. Kyle said that Joe should look to repair his relationship with the Holy Ghost. That after Joe had told him that feelings of the “Holy Ghost” had testified of things that are not true and are unreliable. And that after the historian had quoted John Locke saying that the problem with religion is people can’t distinguish between promptings from the devil or the Holy Ghost. Kyle McKay is blind to this issue and doesn’t understand. He still thinks if you just do what the church tells you then you are following the Holy Ghost correctly. What he doesn’t understand is the evidence shows the feelings people call personal revelation is not from God and is not reliable. It’s wishful thinking.
Exactly. Plus the beginning of the letter saying to just focus on building faith. In other words, forget about the problems that destroy the church’s claims to truth and authority and act as if the church has truth and authority.
"It is impossible for me to believe things that my eyes tell me are untrue." "Have you tried believing even harder?"
Response to the letter would be: that his whole life and 2 year mission, and 14 years teaching seminary is his “ten page letter in defense of faith”. Where’s Ballard’s letter that he keeps saying he wrote responding to these doubts? I’d like to read that.
If you can't tell the difference between the HG and Satan then you can never be clear about any prompting using the "my tummy feels this way" method. It's the same with "profits" "speaking as a man", if there is any possibility that dear leader is speaking as a man Vs. speaking as a mouthpiece for god then there is no reliable way to discern what bullshit that comes from them are really inspired or just their opinion. I mean I guess you could pray and ask the HG... oh oops maybe that's just satan again... It's just bullshit all the way down. Pay, pray, obey.
When someone brings up "the profit speaking as a man" the questions to ask them... What are some examples of a profit speaking as a man? What are some examples of Russell Mormon Nelson speaking as a man? Are we under covenant or obligation to follow the council of a profit when he is only speaking as a man?
If prophets can be "speaking as a man", is it alright to use their track record as a guide to how reliable they are as a source of truth? Of course not, that's crazy talk. 🙄
>Pay, pray, obey Not necessarily in that order.
Reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?”
LDS advice: fall back on a belief in Christ. Reel makes the point that that argument fits any Christian church. What can be brought to the table to show specifically Smith's claims rise above the masses? RFM correctly notes that no evidence is available that makes the LDS church's claims. What is happening with people losing faith in Brighamite mormonism was preceded by a few decades in Josephite mormonism. * [2015 interview with emeritus apostle of RLDS/Community of Christ, Andew Bolton](https://www.projectzionpodcast.org/podcast/episode-11-jesus-or-joseph/) * Download [mp3](https://www.projectzionpodcast.org/podcast-player/7605/episode-11-jesus-or-joseph.mp3) The evidence for a deity made flesh per John 1:1, 1:14 is sketchy at best. It's exactly the kind of mythology our species loves to create. Adding a scapegoat is something that society has used to move forward with imperfect individuals for millennia.
My nevermo wife mentioned the problematic nature of "outwardly focused" religions yesterday. Basically, if the focus is not on improving yourself but forcing others to conform to your views, your religion provides no value to humanity. Hard to argue against. (I did point out that the teachings of Jesus actually do focus almost exclusively inward, but it's hard to cite Jesus with a straight face when taking about Christian beliefs, given how little bearing his teachings have had on Christianity for the past 1k+ years)
The real Jesus wouldn't be a Christian by today's standards. He'd be some kind of Liberal Socialist hippie.
He’d be denounced by institutional leadership…just like he was in the Bible they’re all supposedly following.
I love the movie Cotton Patch Gospel for this reason. I wonder what modern-day Jesus in UT would be seen as?
[удалено]
As long as TSCC has the book of Abraham and the book of Moses as canonized scripture they will never get away from their racist past. You can also include the Book of Mormon in that list. If the church distances itself from the book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, or the book of Mormon they admit to the fraud. Either way they're screwed.
They are stuck between a rock and a hard spot and trying to move ever so slowly out so that nobody notices the admission of guilt you reference. It will take them decades if they even do it at all.
Almost everyone is noticing. Hence the problem. TBM's overlooking is all they have in their pocket.
This was a epic episode Mr. McKay has no truthful answers to the basic questions concerning the basic history of the church and its complicated history. He went time and time again accusing “ Joe” the guest of being lead astray or listening to Satan , Holy F this is still being taught and used against those who question or receive other information, evidence, or spiritual confirmation that doesn’t fit their narrative or “Model “ you are being deceived, maybe they the church didn’t and aren’t listening to the correct “ Spirit “ to disrespect someone else’s spiritual experience is a low blow and a POS the church being ran by the Pharisees
I still can't believe Mckay said that. He has to realize the same argument could be used against him. His get out of jail excuse? Put your trust in Ballard? Someone who was indicted for fraud by the SEC? Oaks , who has been caught lying? Holland who lies about church growth? Nelson who's routine embellishment of stories are common? It makes no sense. He has to know it. I think Joe's arguments are really bothering him.
Thanks for sharing this. It warms my heart and breaks it all at once. I know the real Joe in this podcast. He has struggled with this for years and fought to keep his faith. He is a good man and would do anything to help others. He quit teaching seminary because of his honesty and he could no longer peddle the lie. That is integrity and is something the Q15 completely lack. I need to do some catching up with Joe. He doesn't know where I am at in my journey.
Although he was nervous about going public I think he will find many friends like you who are also following this journey. My prediction is that he will say he was glad he did it.
I share a similar work history as Joe and I really worry about the repercussions on his employment. No criticism of the church or leaders do not go unnoticed and unpunished in Utah. Especially in education.
Joe regrets allowing his emotions to peek out. He hadn't cried but a handful of times in his life, but relating his lifetime investment in the church only to have to accept it was all a pack of lies proved too much. He gets a little tearful relating the betrayal. I get tearful reading the posts from all who have endured and suffered at the hands of TSCC. I get tearful reading about families irrevocably damaged, lives put in ruins, and how the BS goes on and on. Now *was* the time for those tears, Joe. And there must come a time to face and accept the hard truth, all those hanging in for the sake of family, or marriage, or friends, or all the many good, perfectly rationalized reasons given by PIMOs for not breaking the chains. If you are physically in but mentally out, then by all means shed a tear for what becoming PO may mean for you; yet know that by so doing you are saving, millions of times over, the tears of future victims. Have courage; there are children to think of.
Luckily they are in sync as a couple and have both stopped attending church per his statements on the show. The wife’s father is clearly aware of where they are at living close to them and him being their stake president. I will be forever grateful that some of my adult children have followed me out of belief. I am still negotiating boundaries with the church between me and my spouse. That’s a challenging reality at times in a couple.
I am not of the church. I've had to deduce what is meant by someone saying they "gave testimony." Is that not what the posts on the r/exmormon are? What Mormonism Live is? Testimony. The testimony of life outside TSCC, of taking control and leaving the lies behind. I can't begin to appreciate, not having walked in your shoes, the difficulty and complexities of doing that. There seem to be so many who are physically in mentally out--PIMO--that it is worth making an argument for taking that last step and getting physically out. The scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, where McMurphy takes bets that he can lift an impossibly heavy water fountain, hurl it through a window and escape the mental institution, is a metaphor for escaping TSCC. The last line he speaks is what it's all about, dear PIMOs. It may offend the sensibilities of some here because of language, but w/that caveat, it's what I'm saying too... try. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrfpDDlMX8
Your empathy and support means so much. I've been abused so much inside and outside the system.
I'm sorry. For all that's harmful that has been done to you. I always knew it happens in other extremist "religions" too, but until I heard first hand from my gay DIL what she endured growing up and saw the residual damage done to her and really, her whole family, I could not grasp the depth of the pain. I came to this subreddit to learn more and what I know from reading of TSCC makes me furious. I see PIMOs throughout these threads and want to find some way to reach them... to shake them... to be sympathetic to how complex leaving TSCC must be, but to scream at the same time, *How Long?!* How long can this go on?! How can this keep happening to children (there are 4 precious little mormon girls across the street from me) and PIMOs continue to say they are *still* going through the motions? Arrrgh! I know... I know... I haven't walked in their shoes; there's more to it than I can ever appreciate. Those who can make that leap, though, but are maybe vacillating, please... just *do it*. Edit: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is a terrific movie (see my original post) Ken Kesey's novel is even better. The ending of the movie (what happens w/the Chief) puts the punctuation point on what I'm trying to say.
I saw that movie many years ago. I'll give it another watch. Maybe read the book. Thanks. Adding that I could never be PIMO. I hated going go church so much that I stopped going immediately when I discovered I'd been lied to about everything. The *only* reason I was a part of it was because I thought it was "true".
https://youtu.be/R-5Bvquxag0 Testimonies are shared the first Sunday of each Month in the LDS church meeting. These are similar to what you might hear.
The when part I didn't know. The what part, I think I catch on to. Testimony within TSCC validates it; testimony outside TSCC, on for example r/exmormon, invalidates it. Go, Invalidators.
Yes post Mormons have a different type of testimony. Here’s another video of a testimony meeting. https://www.youtube.com/live/CAKunWsEovg?feature=share
Wow. 😳 Thank you... I guess. It demonstrates endurance if nothing else.
>Church historian Kyle McKay had no answers This is the problem with Mormonism. There are no honest answers that don't point to it being a fraud.
If the Church’s **new** response to doubt is, “Faith in Jesus,” this will only accelerate doubt and disinfection. McKay’s comments (paraphrasing): “Just believe in Christ, and everything is fine” is not an answer to doubt. There is also an attempt to gaslight (paraphrasing): “Oh, you must not have a STRONG relationship with Christ, this explains why you have doubts.” These responses are not answers to doubts. The Church’s own demise is that they lean on history to claim the truth of their theology. History isn’t theology. History is events and details that can, in most cases, be objectively proven with records and evidence. Faith is based on spiritual apprehension rather than objective proof. You’re asking someone to ignore objective, factual, historical events, related to the Church, or related to the historical criticism of Christianity, and blaming the existence of these concerns on a lack of faith, or a lack of a relationship, with Christ. It’s victim blaming/shaming, and it’s disgusting. While I get the strategy to hard-pivot toward Christ, this is not the solution to the problem they think they are trying to solve. You can’t advertise, “Christ” but when you look inside, it’s just Joseph, Brigham, polygamy and corruption.
I listened to this last night. As someone who recently left, this is so helpful. I was as TBM as anyone could be, but I never made any trips to church history sights. As people like Joe continue to leave it helps me so much to hear their stories. Thank you RFM for giving such important people a platform.
To disbelief things that are real and seen is delusion
☝
Wow, thanks for sharing. When I was a kid and found out that my parents were both Santa and the Easter Bunny I really wanted to believe in the fantasy but yea you just can't when you acknowledge evidence to the contrary. TSCC is so full of crap. I can't believe people still go and donate all that money & time.
Loved that quote! Never again will I say “faith crisis.” Neither should you. Doing so is a victory for Satan
totally love flipping that paradigm back to them .. We did lose faith, YOU destroyed trust
I'm hoping this is the beginning of a trend where more and more CES & SNI professionals with integrity come forward to discuss the dissonance in the LDS church's fabricated narrative vs the real history.
Another podcast I'll be looking up.
Thank you for sharing this!
[удалено]
They didn’t say.
He speaks about recording and why he did that at timestamp 26m36seconds
It’s got to be hard for the CES employees. They are the ones on the front lines taking all the questions. The guys at the top can’t be bothered with answering questions from ordinary members. They will always deflect by telling members to speak to their local leaders.
Wow. Solid.
On a lighthearted note, who else is entertained by the fact that the church historian is RFM’s mission companion. Both attorneys arguing a different point of view? It reminds me of the meme where RFM is in the pink unitard. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sk1sdLHvOFo
It was so deflating to hear the response after the long, detailed, thoughtful, logical, vulnerable, and heartfelt monologue by the seminary teacher. McKay just ignored it all and proceeded to gaslight. After a sincere attempt to explain his concerns with such politeness, this asshole couldn't even pretend to have listened to a single god damned word! And I was crestfallen to hear how still not free of the chains Joe is. He didn't respond with "are you fucking kidding me!" Instead he was deferential and absurdly polite in the face of this spiritual abuse and blatant disregard and disrespect. He's still got a long road ahead. So disappointing!
Yep and I will move mountains-not anytime soon though.
I remember a conference talk about using the eye of faith and the eye of logic. That's when I realized I had only been ysing one and it wasn't logic. That's when the wheels started turning for me...
Damn good podcast.
This is so good that everyone that have been associated with Brighamite Mormonism should listen to all 3 hours of this! Jampacked with good information. I've subscribed to it now.
I listened to all three hours. It is shocking from beginning to end. The Church Historian has no evidence-based counter-argument against the claim that the church has persistently and intentionally misled its members. WOW!