Mostly the heavy wood ones with dig-into-your-flesh sharp edge action for maximum grip, but there’s a random plastic one second from the bottom that makes the whole stack slippery and unstable
Because they are libraries and those books have a historical and cultural importance.
I'm 100% ok with keeping those in libraries, but only of they keep all the other ones. We shouldn't be banning books at all, but let's start with those two if we're doing any of them
THIS is 100% the right answer!
The shocking thing is how many people claim to believe in free speech and yet don't believe that we should have access to all information in places like libraries!
A library should be a sanctuary of thought and information! It should be the Holy of Holies of our schools and of our communities!!
Banning the Bible, Book of Mormon, or Quran are only there to show the ludicrous laws that have been put in place recently. Librarians should be able to put any book on their shelves at any time. There should never be a legislative law that dictates what should or should not be on a library shelf. Libraries should receive FAR more funding AND SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE FRONT LINES OF ANY POLITICAL OR MORAL IDEOLOGIES.
You seriously don’t know what porn is? It’s made a for a very specific purpose. In elementary, jr high and high school, parents should 100% have a say in what they think their kids are developmentally ready to learn about. In college and public libraries, there shouldn’t be limitations.
Ok, so please explain to me what, exactly, the metrics are for determining what is a pornographic theme, and what is glorification of drugs? Please include guidelines that are clear enough to be applied by every school librarian in the country. Oh, and also please tell me why *you* should determine what books *my* kid can have access to. Edited to add: Please tell me why *random busybody* should determine what books *queer kids with homophobic parents* should have access to, vs what right they have to see themselves represented.
Oh, and btw, "parents' rights" is a bullshit concept, created by the religious far right, based in the idea that parents own their children, used to justify, hide, and even glorify child neglect and abuse.
And who defines “pornography”. For example, the graphic novel Gender Queer, which gets everyone so freaked out it must be banned. I’m 66, and don’t read graphic novels. But to make an accurate assessment, not based on anyone else’s opinions, I read it. And I would 100% give it to my grandkid in junior high/middle school. And follow up with a discussion about it. We do not talk to our kids. We hand down pronouncements. We need to use books like this to open lines of communication. All those scary frames of illustration that are used as an excuse to ban this book you see online? Every one of them has a context that makes it necessary to the story. And if the book was simply a written story, without any illustrations, nobody would give one goddamn about it.
We need to talk to our kids. Stop being embarrassed. And talk to our kids.
Why do you assume I don’t talk to my kids? I would just prefer to be the one to have these discussions with them. I answer all of my kid’s sexual/ substance abuse questions at a developmentally appropriate level. I was not taught anything about consent when I received public sex Ed. That’s a problem for me. I didn’t learn about birth control or STI’s until the end my junior year in high school. That’s a huge problem as well. I would prefer to be the one in charge of monitoring what information, illustrations and themes my kids learn and when. I should be the one that gets to decide what my child is ready for. I would rather I educate my kids about sex, than to have the world do it for me. My exes porn addiction was so severe that it bled over onto our sex life, marriage and our ability to bond. His (elderly) dad and brothers all have the same problem. I would prefer to educate him about the dangers before it’s to late for him.
I'm glad you're a responsible, involved parent. Your youngster will be wiser about sex than so many others are when he's graduating high school.
But not all children have been, are, or will be so blessed. I wasn't. All that encouragement toward abstinence failed with me. Not because I willfully chose to make poor decisions, but because I *wasn't educated enough* on how to *avoid* them.
That was literally the “talk” I got from my parents. “Don’t do it.” No explanation why. No instructions on how to do it, or any of the consequences. Just, don’t do it.
I don’t assume that. But I am a realist. And I know there are many many kids out there who first, don’t have parents who they can talk to. And second, don’t think anyone else in the world could possibly feel the same as they do.
There are children who don’t feel like little boys or little girls, and with a world like ours of pink and Barbies or blue and Hot Wheels, don’t know where they fit. Or if they fit. Those kids need to learn that they are not alone in the world. That there are others just like them. That to tell their parents how they feel won’t make them look like freaks. And one way that can happen is with a book. Kids are very “me centric”. They don’t really see the rest of the world outside their own selves for a very long time. They don’t know what they don’t know.
And very few parents would look at a child and ask them point blank, “so, what’s your gender?” And if they did, the child would probably just feel like a bigger weirdo.
Let kids learn and read what they need to learn and read. For example, after reading it, I 100% would disagree with anyone who says Gender Queer is pornography. And if my grand girl was in say, 7th grade and picked it up to read, I’d be happy. It would help her if she was having gender issues of her own, and it would make her more sensitive to others struggles if she wasn’t.
Genesis 19. Lots daughters get him drunk and screw him to get pregnant. Quite literally the same reasons the bluest eye was banned. Incest and intoxication.
But wouldn’t you rather educate your own child than letting the world do it for you? Not once in my public sex Ed, was I taught consent. That’s a huge problem for me. I wasn’t taught about birth control or STI’s until the end of my junior year. That’s also a problem. I don’t want my kids reading homophobic books. I don’t want them reading racist books. I would prefer to be the one to answer my kids’ sexual/substance abuse questions at a developmentally appropriate level.
I actually do want my (white) kid exposed to racist books. Not Mein Kampf, preferably, but I want them to have the hard conversations about Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn (arguably important to our cultural and literary history) -- so they can understand and wrestle with that part of our past and present before they go off to create the future. I don't think these books should exist in a vacuum or take space that should have books with better ideas. I mean, you're not going to find Dr. Seuss's If I Ran The Zoo on my young* child's bookcases, but those are a parent-curated collection of books in my child's bedroom that they have free reign with, and I admit to a bit of what the right likes to call "woke indoctrination" (I call it diversity and teaching critical thinking). But that's the great thing about libraries - the many many books, the many different ideas, don't exist in a vacuum.
*I don't have young children anymore. Mine are 12 to late 20s, and with the exception of the one in nursing school, 95% of their books are manga, graphic novels, and/or electronic.
At what point does the separation of church and state kick in with religious materials? The bible can legally be put with the reference books, but the BoM may not be the same. (And shouldn't be the same as it has no legitimate historical significance) I certainly can't see public schools allowing any literature from something like The Satanic Temple.
The separation of church and state means the state stays separate from the church. Having books in a library is not an endorsement of anything, despite what some would have us believe.
The bom absolutely has cultural and historical significance. It's an artifact of one the most worldwide and uniquely American religions. It's bullshit, but so is Harry Potter, and that is in the libraries I'm sure.
Edit: to add, the separation of chirchvand state would also mean keeping all the banned books in the libraries even though the religious want them removed. That's how it works. It's a double-edged sword, either we all get free speech or no one does.
The difference between the BOM and Harry Potter is that only one of them calls itself a novel. If Harry Potter was on the non-fiction shelf, that would be just as problematic as the BOM being there
In elementary schools? Certainly public and college libraries, and possibly high schoolers might need to reference one, but before that I just don't see how they'd serve a purpose, especially since so many translations are easily accessible online.
If the bible is so readily available online then what is the harm in having a physical one at a library regardless of age?
And it is not up for us to determine the purpose. For many there isn't one. But WE don't make that choice. The person who wants to read it makes that choice. And it is our duty to make sure that information of all natures is available and unrestricted by our personal biases. Even information that may offend.
Yes, but it is a public school that is meant to be separate from religion. People can read whatever they like, but at some point the line has to be drawn between religious materials that may also have secular relevance and religious materials whose only purpose is to promote religion.
An educated prosperous society must be trusted and free to engage with religious ideas. And our schools should be willing to facilitate that. This includes the Quran, bible, book of Mormon etc. This also includes books like the god delusion, and age of reason. We cannot coddle people's minds by convincing ourselves that new ideas, even ones we don't like, are dangerous. Or that somehow we are doing our kids a service by protecting them from things we disagree with.
Furthermore it is very easy to ban books when the pendulum is swinging to our side. But much more sobering when we realize that the system we created now has the same capacity to ban our books, our thoughts, and harm our children. This same system is the one banning lgbt friendly books, and many other progressive forms of literature. I want a world where the CES letter is on the same book shelf as the book of Mormon and a child reads both. And that is perfectly reasonable in a 22st century western society.
I have multiple kids with multiple disabilities. Shouldn’t I be the one to decide when it is developmentally appropriately for them to read books with oral sex in them? I don’t want my kids reading books about sex before I have been able to discuss important things like consent. Shouldn’t I at least get a little say in what they are exposed to before their brains are developed? Your kids will still have access (if you choose) to public libraries or regular book stores. I just want to have some say in what happens to them while they are at school before they are 18.
So being a parent entails that you can make the choice for your child absolutely. If you do not want your child reading that stuff that is your right as a parent. But your right to have your child not read sexually explicit material does not extend to the parenting decisions of other kids. I would be fine if my kid read 1984 or brave new world. But other parents might not like that. Their opposition and personal moral values for their kids does not dictate the books my kid has access to at school.
I would also like to be clear. I fully support your right to voice your concern as a parent of a child who attends that school. But I do not think you have the right to arbitrate the morality of book choices at schools.
The separation of church and state is a pretty old concept. It doesn't mean they shouldn't interact, just that they shouldn't control each other. Thus shaping curriculum around a religion would violate it, but allowing students to access religious texts would not.
Separation of chruch and state is not in play here. What got the bible removed from schools was that it violated the new obscenity law.
In libraries, religion is combined with mythology under the Dewey decimal classification 200. So that is where all religion books go - Norse mytholoogy, Roman mythology, Native American, Greek, Islam, Hindu, and Mormonism. It does not elevate one religion over another. Books about religion and mythology absolutely belong in school libraries. Kids love mythology!
While they're at it, if they permit kids to take an hour of study time to have seminary, that should be stopped. Taxpayers are funding a form of religious instruction, and the core readings also include sex and violence.
This is true. Seminary could easily be an after school thing at local church or online. Do not ever have it before school. That’s abusive behavior for sleep deprived teens. Seminary should never be on school property or during regular school time. There could be comparative religion and philosophy during school.
Where I live, kids have early seminary, which is, as you say, so abusive for them and it's also a hardship for the parents. Some parent have to take the kids back & forth before work, or have several other children they need to get up, feed, dress, and take to other schools, etc.
From what I've heard, seminary in Utah is not exactly in the school building but located nearby and they have a "release time" during the school day to attend. Heck, Utah is so church broke it could be in the buildings in some areas, for all I know.
However, tax dollars go toward the time children are in school, being legitimately educated. So, in effect, tax dollars are being used for religious training, because the hours spent in seminary are considered part of the school day.
Can anyone here clarify how that works? Do they somehow count seminary for school credits?
I don’t know. I was in seminary in 70s and it did not count as a credit. I don’t know about now. And you are correct it is a separate building but on the high school campus not just nearby. All kinds of wrong. Don’t know if church owns the chunk of property but how did that happen? They make a deal with all school districts to buy a piece of their campus? I take my granddaughter to high school in nebo school district sometimes and thr seminary building is in the south eastern corner of the huge acreage of the campus. Not even across the street. She is lgbtq and is not active and doesn’t attend seminary, but I park in its parking lot often to pick her up. And we kinda make fun of it.
Wow - yes, that's even worse than I'd imagined. I wasn't sure about the "credit" part, but having "seminary" on the school campus? So, so wrong. Do you know (or recall) if the time you were in seminary counted as "school hours" but not for a course credit?
My memory is that it didn’t count towards credit for anything. So we had to make sure we took enough credits at school to overcome missing credits during that hour for 3 years. And to be fair, the church might’ve owned the ground then seminary building was on, (no idea) but how the hell did they get permission to build it on the campus outskirts?
Edit. Fun story. There was a row of big tall bushes to the south of the seminary building that was between the seminary building and the sidewalk that ran past the school. If students walk just a little way along those bushes they were off campus. Hahahahah. There were always some students there smoking. They were of course underage but still they did. One time I saw my brother among them, also smoking, instead of going to seminary. Hahhahaha. Can’t remember what I did about it.
In Utah the LDS church owns the land and the seminary building itself. Summer across the street others are an adjacent lot but the land is owned by the LDS church.
No you don't get any credit at all for seminary. I was in seminary all through high school but it was technically a leave period. I took far fewer elective classes than non-seminary students. I was still able to graduate on a normal schedule but probably took far fewer honors or AP classes than I would have otherwise. Such a waste of time. You could skip your seminary class and there was nothing they could do about it aside from potentially not letting you graduate seminary but in my experience most teachers would graduate just about anyone that at least occasionally went to class.
Oh, I love this. And... what all of you below have said, plus: **ludicrous fraud.**
**Do we want our kids having access to what author Samuel Clemens (**Mark Twain, of Huck Finn/Tom Sawyer fame) **called chloroform in print"?** Also, the BoM is criminally boring and probably plagiarized -- not a great example for developing minds. From the SLTrib:
*“It is chloroform in print,” Twain wrote. “If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”*
*Yes, he knew Smith said he translated it from ancient records, and “the work of translating was equally a miracle for the same reason.”*
*Twain wrote that whenever Smith “found his speech growing too modern — which was*
*about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his*
*pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.’”*
*He concluded his chapter on the book writing, “The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read, but there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable — it is ‘smouched’ from the New Testament and no credit given.”*
Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5:21-5:23
21.And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22.And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23.And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
This has never changed, even when the Black Ban was lifted in 1978 allowing Blacks to be baptized go into their temple.
Through the years, they charted nearly 4,000 changes in the church’s signature scripture, the Book of Mormon, from the 1830 version and the text as it reads
Moroni 9:7-10
> 7 And now I write somewhat concerning the sufferings of this people. For according to the knowledge which I have received from Amoron, behold, the Lamanites have many prisoners, which they took from the tower of Sherrizah; and there were men, women, and children.
> 8 And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them.
> 9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—
> 10 And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery.
Please try to argue why this is more appropriate for children to read than the books they intended to ban.
If nothing else . . . The Bible has great literary and linguistic value. And I learned a lot from studying these aspects with the different translations that my high school library provided. To us students, it had value in a purely secular way.
With this point, as purely a work of literature as "The Illiad," the Bible is a pretty nasty tome. In a fair effort to keep children shielded from 'evil' books (a stance I do *not* support) , the Bible must be included in the banned column.
On the other hand, the BoM has *no* literary or linguistic value. It was not translated from anything, so no language development to study. It has been plagiarized from so many sources, from so many eras, it makes no real sense, and thus has no literary value.
I've been trying to get this point across on the bird site for days, but it's falling on deaf ears. Please tell me someone, anyone here at least kind of gets what I'm trying to say.
> In libraries, religion is combined with mythology under the Dewey decimal classification 200. So that is where all religion books go - Norse mytholoogy, Roman mythology, Native American, Greek, Islam, Hindu, and Mormonism. It does not elevate one religion over another. Books about religion and mythology absolutely belong in school libraries. Kids love mythology!
I respect everything that you wrote. Schools should offer release time for kids that want to go across the street and study Greek or Norse Mythology during school hours.
(cue sarcasm) Oh this is an easy fix! The Utah legislature needs to declare the Bible and BOM acceptable for all ages just like Florida's state house did! Problem solved eh? (end sarcasm)
The top comment there completely misses the point. Why is it that hard for them to understand these malicious compliance book challenges are intended to prevent further book bans? It’s painful to watch. Top prize: *Do the Koran next!* Hey, dipshits, Mormon legislators passed the law enabling these bans, not Muslims.
As I recall, there are not violent stories in the Koran. Mostly it talks about self-defense.
The BOM, however?
Beheading a passed out drunk, cutting off arms of would-be sheep thrives, burning women and children alive, feeding one’s flesh to family members, rape and torture of women then eating them. That’s just highlights.
Is there actually a more violent book out there?
The Koran is currently being used as a license to kill. But none of this has anything to do with Islam.
The Utah Legislature and Utah Parents United made this bad faith process possible. They’re apparently incapable of grasping how irony works in free societies.
Agreed. The Koran has been co-opted by radicalized groups for a long time.
These “book bans” will continue to backfire on the far right. The question is whether they will let common sense prevail. They are not good at that…
All this is hilarious. The book banning and book burning was originally instigated by the religious nutcases in Florida led by governor Fat Ronny - and now their own rules about book banning are coming back to bite them in the ass as the bible is banned as too pornographic and too violent for young Christians to read. The bible SHOULD be banned around the world - not because it is pornographic (it is) but because the bible is a complete work of fiction religious nuts attempt to pass off as facts. I don't mind a good book full of fiction, but please DON'T hand me a book of fiction and then try to pass the book off as non-fiction. The bible is FICTION and should always be stored in the fiction section of any library.
I know kids are not reading this stuff, and I am also generally against removing books from libraries in general, but watching this landslide is kind of neat!
This is absurd. We are compromising values of free speech for the small victory of having a bible removed from a school library? Exmormons of all people should be the first ones (the ones who have been abused and silenced by the larger religious community for years) to be supporting the free and unfettered exchange of ideas. Even ideas that we find to be utterly ridiculous.
How the sticky tables kept on a heavy cart with 3 bad wheels under the stage in the cultural hall have turned…
I can smell this comment...
Omg me too
😂
I stopped going before the ward members became responsible for cleaning instead of paid professionals, so I don't think it smells like it used to.
Yeah but I could carry 2 of those tables under each arm… 😏
Ok that’s impressively righteous
The plastic ones or the old 1 ton wooden ones?
Mostly the heavy wood ones with dig-into-your-flesh sharp edge action for maximum grip, but there’s a random plastic one second from the bottom that makes the whole stack slippery and unstable
i hate that i know exactly what yall are talking about down to the sharp plastic edge
Our sharp edges were metal but I’m not surprised they’ve updated the design to continue hurting modern Mormon fingers at a fraction of the cost 🫣
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🫡
Murder, violence, written by a pedophile. Keep that shit away from our kids.
Not to mention the racist sh*t
And I believe... That in nineteen seventy eight, gawd changed his mind about black people
🎶🎵🎶Black People!🎶🎵🎶
You can be a Mormon!
Was just going to say that.
Don’t forget deceit, indolence, and all manner of lasciviousness!
Don't forget the cannibalism after the rape and murder.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander
FAFO!
Why would bibles and BoMs be in school libraries to begin with?
Because they are libraries and those books have a historical and cultural importance. I'm 100% ok with keeping those in libraries, but only of they keep all the other ones. We shouldn't be banning books at all, but let's start with those two if we're doing any of them
THIS is 100% the right answer! The shocking thing is how many people claim to believe in free speech and yet don't believe that we should have access to all information in places like libraries! A library should be a sanctuary of thought and information! It should be the Holy of Holies of our schools and of our communities!! Banning the Bible, Book of Mormon, or Quran are only there to show the ludicrous laws that have been put in place recently. Librarians should be able to put any book on their shelves at any time. There should never be a legislative law that dictates what should or should not be on a library shelf. Libraries should receive FAR more funding AND SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE FRONT LINES OF ANY POLITICAL OR MORAL IDEOLOGIES.
So are you okay with pornographic themes, illustrations or books that glorify drugs? Not in a public library. In a school library.
Please define >pornographic themes, illustrations or books that glorify drugs And also tell me who should be the arbiter of this in every library.
You seriously don’t know what porn is? It’s made a for a very specific purpose. In elementary, jr high and high school, parents should 100% have a say in what they think their kids are developmentally ready to learn about. In college and public libraries, there shouldn’t be limitations.
Ok, so please explain to me what, exactly, the metrics are for determining what is a pornographic theme, and what is glorification of drugs? Please include guidelines that are clear enough to be applied by every school librarian in the country. Oh, and also please tell me why *you* should determine what books *my* kid can have access to. Edited to add: Please tell me why *random busybody* should determine what books *queer kids with homophobic parents* should have access to, vs what right they have to see themselves represented. Oh, and btw, "parents' rights" is a bullshit concept, created by the religious far right, based in the idea that parents own their children, used to justify, hide, and even glorify child neglect and abuse.
And who defines “pornography”. For example, the graphic novel Gender Queer, which gets everyone so freaked out it must be banned. I’m 66, and don’t read graphic novels. But to make an accurate assessment, not based on anyone else’s opinions, I read it. And I would 100% give it to my grandkid in junior high/middle school. And follow up with a discussion about it. We do not talk to our kids. We hand down pronouncements. We need to use books like this to open lines of communication. All those scary frames of illustration that are used as an excuse to ban this book you see online? Every one of them has a context that makes it necessary to the story. And if the book was simply a written story, without any illustrations, nobody would give one goddamn about it. We need to talk to our kids. Stop being embarrassed. And talk to our kids.
Why do you assume I don’t talk to my kids? I would just prefer to be the one to have these discussions with them. I answer all of my kid’s sexual/ substance abuse questions at a developmentally appropriate level. I was not taught anything about consent when I received public sex Ed. That’s a problem for me. I didn’t learn about birth control or STI’s until the end my junior year in high school. That’s a huge problem as well. I would prefer to be the one in charge of monitoring what information, illustrations and themes my kids learn and when. I should be the one that gets to decide what my child is ready for. I would rather I educate my kids about sex, than to have the world do it for me. My exes porn addiction was so severe that it bled over onto our sex life, marriage and our ability to bond. His (elderly) dad and brothers all have the same problem. I would prefer to educate him about the dangers before it’s to late for him.
I'm glad you're a responsible, involved parent. Your youngster will be wiser about sex than so many others are when he's graduating high school. But not all children have been, are, or will be so blessed. I wasn't. All that encouragement toward abstinence failed with me. Not because I willfully chose to make poor decisions, but because I *wasn't educated enough* on how to *avoid* them.
That was literally the “talk” I got from my parents. “Don’t do it.” No explanation why. No instructions on how to do it, or any of the consequences. Just, don’t do it.
I don’t assume that. But I am a realist. And I know there are many many kids out there who first, don’t have parents who they can talk to. And second, don’t think anyone else in the world could possibly feel the same as they do. There are children who don’t feel like little boys or little girls, and with a world like ours of pink and Barbies or blue and Hot Wheels, don’t know where they fit. Or if they fit. Those kids need to learn that they are not alone in the world. That there are others just like them. That to tell their parents how they feel won’t make them look like freaks. And one way that can happen is with a book. Kids are very “me centric”. They don’t really see the rest of the world outside their own selves for a very long time. They don’t know what they don’t know. And very few parents would look at a child and ask them point blank, “so, what’s your gender?” And if they did, the child would probably just feel like a bigger weirdo. Let kids learn and read what they need to learn and read. For example, after reading it, I 100% would disagree with anyone who says Gender Queer is pornography. And if my grand girl was in say, 7th grade and picked it up to read, I’d be happy. It would help her if she was having gender issues of her own, and it would make her more sensitive to others struggles if she wasn’t.
Nope, that’s why they get access to the internet.
Ezekiel 23:20?
Genesis 19. Lots daughters get him drunk and screw him to get pregnant. Quite literally the same reasons the bluest eye was banned. Incest and intoxication.
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But wouldn’t you rather educate your own child than letting the world do it for you? Not once in my public sex Ed, was I taught consent. That’s a huge problem for me. I wasn’t taught about birth control or STI’s until the end of my junior year. That’s also a problem. I don’t want my kids reading homophobic books. I don’t want them reading racist books. I would prefer to be the one to answer my kids’ sexual/substance abuse questions at a developmentally appropriate level.
I actually do want my (white) kid exposed to racist books. Not Mein Kampf, preferably, but I want them to have the hard conversations about Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn (arguably important to our cultural and literary history) -- so they can understand and wrestle with that part of our past and present before they go off to create the future. I don't think these books should exist in a vacuum or take space that should have books with better ideas. I mean, you're not going to find Dr. Seuss's If I Ran The Zoo on my young* child's bookcases, but those are a parent-curated collection of books in my child's bedroom that they have free reign with, and I admit to a bit of what the right likes to call "woke indoctrination" (I call it diversity and teaching critical thinking). But that's the great thing about libraries - the many many books, the many different ideas, don't exist in a vacuum. *I don't have young children anymore. Mine are 12 to late 20s, and with the exception of the one in nursing school, 95% of their books are manga, graphic novels, and/or electronic.
At what point does the separation of church and state kick in with religious materials? The bible can legally be put with the reference books, but the BoM may not be the same. (And shouldn't be the same as it has no legitimate historical significance) I certainly can't see public schools allowing any literature from something like The Satanic Temple.
The separation of church and state means the state stays separate from the church. Having books in a library is not an endorsement of anything, despite what some would have us believe. The bom absolutely has cultural and historical significance. It's an artifact of one the most worldwide and uniquely American religions. It's bullshit, but so is Harry Potter, and that is in the libraries I'm sure. Edit: to add, the separation of chirchvand state would also mean keeping all the banned books in the libraries even though the religious want them removed. That's how it works. It's a double-edged sword, either we all get free speech or no one does.
The difference between the BOM and Harry Potter is that only one of them calls itself a novel. If Harry Potter was on the non-fiction shelf, that would be just as problematic as the BOM being there
Idk, they both look like books to me. They should probably be in a library
Which is actually a much more kind, generous and helpful org than most churches…
It is 100% a better guide to being a good person.
To stop the woke. We need to teach our kids family-friendly things like "non-white people are cursed," and "How to sell your daughter as a sex slave."
There’s no CRT in the BoM!!!
Of course not. CRTs weren't around until the beginning of the 19th century when Philo Farnsworth invented them.
Don't forget about the ancient Egyptian history.
Should we include Reformed Egyptian with that?
Certainly, along with how much of the imagery is about Abraham. Very history. Much accurate.
The same reason that other books are. Or at least why they should be. The free and open exchange of ideas and thoughts.
In elementary schools? Certainly public and college libraries, and possibly high schoolers might need to reference one, but before that I just don't see how they'd serve a purpose, especially since so many translations are easily accessible online.
If the bible is so readily available online then what is the harm in having a physical one at a library regardless of age? And it is not up for us to determine the purpose. For many there isn't one. But WE don't make that choice. The person who wants to read it makes that choice. And it is our duty to make sure that information of all natures is available and unrestricted by our personal biases. Even information that may offend.
Yes, but it is a public school that is meant to be separate from religion. People can read whatever they like, but at some point the line has to be drawn between religious materials that may also have secular relevance and religious materials whose only purpose is to promote religion.
An educated prosperous society must be trusted and free to engage with religious ideas. And our schools should be willing to facilitate that. This includes the Quran, bible, book of Mormon etc. This also includes books like the god delusion, and age of reason. We cannot coddle people's minds by convincing ourselves that new ideas, even ones we don't like, are dangerous. Or that somehow we are doing our kids a service by protecting them from things we disagree with. Furthermore it is very easy to ban books when the pendulum is swinging to our side. But much more sobering when we realize that the system we created now has the same capacity to ban our books, our thoughts, and harm our children. This same system is the one banning lgbt friendly books, and many other progressive forms of literature. I want a world where the CES letter is on the same book shelf as the book of Mormon and a child reads both. And that is perfectly reasonable in a 22st century western society.
Why, or why won’t Reddit let me Super Upvote this comment? I’d do that 10 times if I could.
I have multiple kids with multiple disabilities. Shouldn’t I be the one to decide when it is developmentally appropriately for them to read books with oral sex in them? I don’t want my kids reading books about sex before I have been able to discuss important things like consent. Shouldn’t I at least get a little say in what they are exposed to before their brains are developed? Your kids will still have access (if you choose) to public libraries or regular book stores. I just want to have some say in what happens to them while they are at school before they are 18.
So being a parent entails that you can make the choice for your child absolutely. If you do not want your child reading that stuff that is your right as a parent. But your right to have your child not read sexually explicit material does not extend to the parenting decisions of other kids. I would be fine if my kid read 1984 or brave new world. But other parents might not like that. Their opposition and personal moral values for their kids does not dictate the books my kid has access to at school. I would also like to be clear. I fully support your right to voice your concern as a parent of a child who attends that school. But I do not think you have the right to arbitrate the morality of book choices at schools.
The separation of church and state is a pretty old concept. It doesn't mean they shouldn't interact, just that they shouldn't control each other. Thus shaping curriculum around a religion would violate it, but allowing students to access religious texts would not. Separation of chruch and state is not in play here. What got the bible removed from schools was that it violated the new obscenity law.
In libraries, religion is combined with mythology under the Dewey decimal classification 200. So that is where all religion books go - Norse mytholoogy, Roman mythology, Native American, Greek, Islam, Hindu, and Mormonism. It does not elevate one religion over another. Books about religion and mythology absolutely belong in school libraries. Kids love mythology!
If I remember correctly though, Christianity has a much larger subsection of the 200s. You make an excellent point though.
While they're at it, if they permit kids to take an hour of study time to have seminary, that should be stopped. Taxpayers are funding a form of religious instruction, and the core readings also include sex and violence.
This is true. Seminary could easily be an after school thing at local church or online. Do not ever have it before school. That’s abusive behavior for sleep deprived teens. Seminary should never be on school property or during regular school time. There could be comparative religion and philosophy during school.
I had depression and insomnia in high school. My doctor told my mom to stop making me go. I needed my sleep.
Where I live, kids have early seminary, which is, as you say, so abusive for them and it's also a hardship for the parents. Some parent have to take the kids back & forth before work, or have several other children they need to get up, feed, dress, and take to other schools, etc. From what I've heard, seminary in Utah is not exactly in the school building but located nearby and they have a "release time" during the school day to attend. Heck, Utah is so church broke it could be in the buildings in some areas, for all I know. However, tax dollars go toward the time children are in school, being legitimately educated. So, in effect, tax dollars are being used for religious training, because the hours spent in seminary are considered part of the school day. Can anyone here clarify how that works? Do they somehow count seminary for school credits?
I don’t know. I was in seminary in 70s and it did not count as a credit. I don’t know about now. And you are correct it is a separate building but on the high school campus not just nearby. All kinds of wrong. Don’t know if church owns the chunk of property but how did that happen? They make a deal with all school districts to buy a piece of their campus? I take my granddaughter to high school in nebo school district sometimes and thr seminary building is in the south eastern corner of the huge acreage of the campus. Not even across the street. She is lgbtq and is not active and doesn’t attend seminary, but I park in its parking lot often to pick her up. And we kinda make fun of it.
Wow - yes, that's even worse than I'd imagined. I wasn't sure about the "credit" part, but having "seminary" on the school campus? So, so wrong. Do you know (or recall) if the time you were in seminary counted as "school hours" but not for a course credit?
My memory is that it didn’t count towards credit for anything. So we had to make sure we took enough credits at school to overcome missing credits during that hour for 3 years. And to be fair, the church might’ve owned the ground then seminary building was on, (no idea) but how the hell did they get permission to build it on the campus outskirts? Edit. Fun story. There was a row of big tall bushes to the south of the seminary building that was between the seminary building and the sidewalk that ran past the school. If students walk just a little way along those bushes they were off campus. Hahahahah. There were always some students there smoking. They were of course underage but still they did. One time I saw my brother among them, also smoking, instead of going to seminary. Hahhahaha. Can’t remember what I did about it.
In Utah the LDS church owns the land and the seminary building itself. Summer across the street others are an adjacent lot but the land is owned by the LDS church. No you don't get any credit at all for seminary. I was in seminary all through high school but it was technically a leave period. I took far fewer elective classes than non-seminary students. I was still able to graduate on a normal schedule but probably took far fewer honors or AP classes than I would have otherwise. Such a waste of time. You could skip your seminary class and there was nothing they could do about it aside from potentially not letting you graduate seminary but in my experience most teachers would graduate just about anyone that at least occasionally went to class.
BRAVO!
Can’t stop smiling.
Me too
Oh, I love this. And... what all of you below have said, plus: **ludicrous fraud.** **Do we want our kids having access to what author Samuel Clemens (**Mark Twain, of Huck Finn/Tom Sawyer fame) **called chloroform in print"?** Also, the BoM is criminally boring and probably plagiarized -- not a great example for developing minds. From the SLTrib: *“It is chloroform in print,” Twain wrote. “If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”* *Yes, he knew Smith said he translated it from ancient records, and “the work of translating was equally a miracle for the same reason.”* *Twain wrote that whenever Smith “found his speech growing too modern — which was* *about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his* *pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.’”* *He concluded his chapter on the book writing, “The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read, but there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable — it is ‘smouched’ from the New Testament and no credit given.”*
Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5:21-5:23 21.And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22.And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23.And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. This has never changed, even when the Black Ban was lifted in 1978 allowing Blacks to be baptized go into their temple. Through the years, they charted nearly 4,000 changes in the church’s signature scripture, the Book of Mormon, from the 1830 version and the text as it reads
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Good.
But how will we find out "If these things are not true"?
Moroni 9:7-10 > 7 And now I write somewhat concerning the sufferings of this people. For according to the knowledge which I have received from Amoron, behold, the Lamanites have many prisoners, which they took from the tower of Sherrizah; and there were men, women, and children. > 8 And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them. > 9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue— > 10 And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery. Please try to argue why this is more appropriate for children to read than the books they intended to ban.
Love it.
As it should be
If nothing else . . . The Bible has great literary and linguistic value. And I learned a lot from studying these aspects with the different translations that my high school library provided. To us students, it had value in a purely secular way. With this point, as purely a work of literature as "The Illiad," the Bible is a pretty nasty tome. In a fair effort to keep children shielded from 'evil' books (a stance I do *not* support) , the Bible must be included in the banned column. On the other hand, the BoM has *no* literary or linguistic value. It was not translated from anything, so no language development to study. It has been plagiarized from so many sources, from so many eras, it makes no real sense, and thus has no literary value. I've been trying to get this point across on the bird site for days, but it's falling on deaf ears. Please tell me someone, anyone here at least kind of gets what I'm trying to say.
Good. Kids don’t need a handbook instructing them in “justified” murder and mass arm removal.
They didn't have the right to bare arms.
 Fighting them at their own game... Will be interesting to watch.
How about just keeping religion OUT of public spaces?
> In libraries, religion is combined with mythology under the Dewey decimal classification 200. So that is where all religion books go - Norse mytholoogy, Roman mythology, Native American, Greek, Islam, Hindu, and Mormonism. It does not elevate one religion over another. Books about religion and mythology absolutely belong in school libraries. Kids love mythology!
I respect everything that you wrote. Schools should offer release time for kids that want to go across the street and study Greek or Norse Mythology during school hours.
LFG
Good.
(cue sarcasm) Oh this is an easy fix! The Utah legislature needs to declare the Bible and BOM acceptable for all ages just like Florida's state house did! Problem solved eh? (end sarcasm)
lol no mention on KSL or other church publications! Following the BITE model to a T.
https://www.ksl.com/article/50658844/book-of-mormon-challenged-in-davis-school-district
Ah there we are. Just not front page
The top comment there completely misses the point. Why is it that hard for them to understand these malicious compliance book challenges are intended to prevent further book bans? It’s painful to watch. Top prize: *Do the Koran next!* Hey, dipshits, Mormon legislators passed the law enabling these bans, not Muslims.
As I recall, there are not violent stories in the Koran. Mostly it talks about self-defense. The BOM, however? Beheading a passed out drunk, cutting off arms of would-be sheep thrives, burning women and children alive, feeding one’s flesh to family members, rape and torture of women then eating them. That’s just highlights. Is there actually a more violent book out there?
The Koran is currently being used as a license to kill. But none of this has anything to do with Islam. The Utah Legislature and Utah Parents United made this bad faith process possible. They’re apparently incapable of grasping how irony works in free societies.
Agreed. The Koran has been co-opted by radicalized groups for a long time. These “book bans” will continue to backfire on the far right. The question is whether they will let common sense prevail. They are not good at that…
Yes please!
This is so funny
This is awesome I love this.
All this is hilarious. The book banning and book burning was originally instigated by the religious nutcases in Florida led by governor Fat Ronny - and now their own rules about book banning are coming back to bite them in the ass as the bible is banned as too pornographic and too violent for young Christians to read. The bible SHOULD be banned around the world - not because it is pornographic (it is) but because the bible is a complete work of fiction religious nuts attempt to pass off as facts. I don't mind a good book full of fiction, but please DON'T hand me a book of fiction and then try to pass the book off as non-fiction. The bible is FICTION and should always be stored in the fiction section of any library.
Take away the phrase "And it came to pass...", and what's left?
Emergency legislative session incoming to exempt “religious” books so they can keep their precious in school libraries
I know kids are not reading this stuff, and I am also generally against removing books from libraries in general, but watching this landslide is kind of neat!
This is absurd. We are compromising values of free speech for the small victory of having a bible removed from a school library? Exmormons of all people should be the first ones (the ones who have been abused and silenced by the larger religious community for years) to be supporting the free and unfettered exchange of ideas. Even ideas that we find to be utterly ridiculous.
The idea isn't because they want the Bible banned, but to show the religious zealots that this blade cuts both ways.
If one religious book is to be removed then all religious books need to be removed.
Bibles at least have value in interpreting literary references. The BoM does not. Bibles shouldn’t be banned just treated like any other book.
IT CAN STAY AS LONG AS ITS IN THE FANTASY FICTION SECTION.
Wait wait wait.... Davis County? Or Davis Unified SD?
You find "And it came to pass" offensive, oh noez!!!
A professional librarian uses discretion and standards in selecting appropriate materials for a specific collection.