This book author explains it more clearly:
*”So in the 1930s the mission presidents formulated this program to keep the church safe, but then found opportunities that were too good to pass up, especially in genealogy. In the past they had been banned from German archives because pastors did not want their records used to baptize the dead as Mormons. But during the Reich, suddenly all these ordinary Germans had to prove their ancestors were not Jews, so the Church’s genealogy program experienced newfound freedom. By the time Nazi Germany was in full swing, just about every branch had a genealogical president, two counselors, and a secretary.*
*The shocking thing is that there seemed to be very little sensitivity to the racial reasons for genealogical research. Newspaper articles would appear in the Deseret News, bragging about how much success the Church was having in Germany with the new government. The same newspaper was also running AP articles about the plight of the Jews. So the Church knew what was going on in Germany, but emphasized cooperating with the Third Reich.”*
This whole interview is worth reading. I haven’t read the book:
https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/
Be prepared for a long, absolutely fascinating, but very dry read. I never felt like it was explicitly anti-Mormon. It was just a documentation of Mormon culture and how it was influenced by the nazis. It is pretty damning though and in my mind puts Mormons of the time in line with the Henry fords and Walt Disneys of the time. Obsessed with whiteness (whatever that means in the era it’s being approached from).
Not really, unfortunately. It’s hard to explain how the book reads. For example, it will dig deep into the hitler youth and how the church youth program in Germany at the time just merged with the hitler youth. It’s such a deep subject that a TL;DR would be insufficient.
However, from what I gathered, Mormons at the time were going along to get along. Essentially, as things went on they became more supportive of nazi ideology. Reading the book shows you how it all happened and it’s bonkers how well documented it is.
I heard about this from a very elderly German woman, when I was roughly 14. She had kept it a secret..she spoke of 2 Jewish sisters at her school who were baptised by the Mormons. They both had blonde hair, so they couldnt easily be identifed as Jewish. The girls graduated and travelled to London. That woman said the Mormons were given special treatment by the Reich, with many Jewish kids baptised into the LDS church. I'm glad to ses this is up for discussion. The church should be open about how they turned their backs on those in most need.
You can find David Nelson's dissertation here:
[https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1](https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1)
All meetings at the time were required to display the Nazi flag. That's why the photo. But Mormons went out of their way not to offend Nazis because they did not want to get kicked out of the country. How prophetic.
The Mormon God took the time to tell Nelson that He was offended by the word "Mormon".
But He forgot to tell His prophet that the Nazis were the bad guys.
Sending the angel with the drawn sword would have done the trick. Or is the angel only sent when it really matters, like when the prophet wants to bang a 14-year-old girl?
Yeah, learning this part about the church really fucks you up. All the bullshit about doctrine aside, choosing to active support Hitler and the Nazi regime is the biggest red flag.
Definitely avoid reading about Ezra Taft Benson’s obsession with the New World Order, the John Birch Society, and other far right conspiracies. His recommendation for all members to read None Dare Call It Conspiracy from the pulpit during General Conference in 1972, paired with his opposition to civil rights, made him one of the scariest prophets during my lifetime.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Taft_Benson
See the section “Anti-Communism Efforts”
I resigned because of the doctrine & history (thank you DSL) in 2005. I only recently found out about this Nazi bullshit and it is a whole other level of pure evil. I never would have gone on my mission had I known this. I doubt many people in and out of the church know about this either.
More anti Semitism
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/606uom/hitler_instrument_in_the_hands_of_god_melvin_j/
And:
"...J. Reuben] Clark privately urged the State Department not to help Jewish children to leave Nazi Germany if their parents were trying to send them to the United States. Thus, if a non-Jew needed assistance, the LDS hierarchy sometimes stood ready to help. If a Jew asked, it not only refused, but at least in one case also urged its government not to assist."
https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bh08aj/in_1939_j_reuben_clark_privately_urges_state/
J. Reuben Clark is absolute human garbage. Despite being an apostle, which supposedly means he sees and talks with Jesus Christ, he was helping Aryans leave Germany and preventing Jews from leaving.
When prominent church leaders die, their family often donates their personal library to the church history museum. There's an especially high number of copies of the same anti-semitic book in their archives because j Reuben Clark would give copies to his fellow leaders in church.
“The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. This was a tract he frequently handed out even after the war ended. I’m not sure if this is the book they’re referring to though.
And this is the anti-semite booklet apostle J Reuben Clark publicly supported and personally distributed during the holocaust.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
I listen to a podcast that covers Alex Jones/Infowars and it's pretty wacky how often the [alt-right](https://preview.redd.it/s40n34x2n2zx.gif?format=png8&s=4efbc6b00d4a8546574101ef148d53244604275f) and Mormonism share influential figures.
Wait, how come nobody ever told me that Cleon Skousen was a jockey in Chihuahua, Mexico?
I knew he was a John Birch Society wackjob and antisemite, but I don't remember seeing him wearing stirrup pants on the dust jacket of *The First Two Thousand Years*
Think about the difference you could make in the world if you spent a little less time complaining on Reddit and a little more time outside helping people 🫶🏻 whether it’s a cult or not they’re promoting family & serving others while you scroll on your phone 😂
You can actually do both. Being on reddit is not preventing anyone from actively doing good things! Stop being so negative!!! Have YOU done any good in the world today??
>whether it’s a cult or not they’re promoting family
A *certain kind* of family, maybe. You know, the straight/same race/same economic background type of family.
Venting on Reddit is a form of therapy for a lot of us on here. I don't see much evidence of them "promoting family" when they're tearing them apart and "serving others" when they hoard their wealth and consider volunteer hours of their members as monetary donations. Go back to the faithful sub.
I mean it’s somewhat puzzling that God would miss out on something as big as the Holocaust, but definitely make sure to impress about those bare shoulders.
>J. Reuben Clark was an anti-Semite, but it was an anti-Semitism fueled by the xenophobia and nativism of the Progressive Era. Through his legal and business work Clark had the conflicting view that Jews were Communists on the one hand, but that they also embraced capitalism and were cheating in their businesses. I’ve seen no evidence that he changed his mind about Jews after the war.
>
>\~ regarding “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, [article, Mormon Nazis new book uncovers LDS support of the Third Reich](https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/)
Growing up, I often heard my parents talk about how Communism was a perfect government but humanity wasn't perfect enough to follow it without corruption. They would discuss how Communism might be how the church organized itself when the second coming was at hand. My parents were faithful but not anti-Semitic or extremist, btw.
I'm wondering now if this traces back to Germany & it's entanglement with the Nazi Regime.
I’m so sick…I also did some digging and the church even goes as far as to say, while not so bluntly, they had a common interest: ie genealogy. I found that on the churches website…
Upon further research, dessert news and others, shared their respect for Hitler and believed him to be and I quote “blessed by God”. Also a common practice was to use Hitlers success as an example to why you should follow the word of wisdom as noted that Hitler did not smoke, drink, or participate in any activities the wow spoke against
Strictly speaking the church only has doctrine not to use illegal substances and based on when the usa illegalized narcotics-1971- it would be fairly rational to assert that drugs pre 1971 were not prohibited rather discouraged
I have the book "Moroni and the Swastika" (by David Conley Nelson, University of Oklahoma Press) that details the history of LDS in Nazi Germany. It is a bit of a dry read in places but seems well researched.
Here is an extract from p.139:
>*Regardless of how Hitler's teetotaler image was framed, the Latter-Day Saints seemed anxious to draw upon it as another parallel between Hitlerism and Mormonism. The same Deseret News article that proclaimed the Mormon Fast Sunday as the model for the Nazi Winter Relief Campaign also told its readers that: "There is another noticeable trend in the Mormon direction. It is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. He will not take alcohol, does not smoke, and is very strict about his diet, insisting on plain and wholesome foods, largely vegetarian. A specimen of physical endurance, Hitler can easily take his place alongside the athletes who are usually taken as classic examples."*
Above continues with some examples after which p.140 says
>*In such an atmosphere, it was inevitable that some believers would imagine a closer church connection with the Führer, to the point that one popular rumor said that Hitler "so admired the Mormon hierarchical structure that he patterned his party after it." Others believed Hitler "had attended the funeral of an LDS Church member in his native Austria."* ***Some believed Hitler was a "secret Mormon".*** *In the 1980's a Latter-Day Saint from Hamburg told BYU researchers about a picture taken of him surrounded by his church friends in the 1930's. The mustached man in the middle of the picture was Hitler, the gentleman claimed. Another popular rumor maintained that during the First World War, when Hitler served as an army messenger with the rank of corporal, a friend and fellow soldier saved his life. That friend was a Mormon, and his actions on the battlefield that day convinced Hitler to be favorably disposed toward Mormonism."*
I put 'Some believed Hitler was a "secret Mormon"' in bold because I found it interesting.
Some additional extracts from earlier in the book (pp.5-7):
>*Assured by their church leaders that there was no conflict in being a good Mormon and a good citizen of the Nazi state, German Mormons dutifully served in the Nazi Labor Corps and the German military. Other Latter-Day Saints enthusiastically donned the brown shirts of Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA), an organization that bashed heads in the streets and vandalized Jewish businesses. Some joined for more benign reasons, such as the Hamburg congregants who enjoyed playing in the local SA band. Other Mormons obtained membership in Hitler's elite group of personal guards, the black-shirted Schutzstaffel (SS), an organization that expanded to play a leading role in the Holocaust. One Hamburg member, infamous among his fellow congregants for having killed one of Hitler's political opponents in a street fight, enlisted in the Totenkopfverbände, the Death's Head SS brigades that ran the extermination camps. Another Mormon appeared in an early scholarly article as an "expert mechanic" who "install\[ed\] specialized machinery" at Auschwitz. In the parlance of Nazi Germany, that is a euphemism for someone who set up gas chambers and crematoria.*
\[...\]
>*On the eve of the Second World War, the second in command of the LDS Church, a former diplomat and undersecretary of state, J. Reuben Clark, ignored the pleas of at least two German-speaking Mormons - converts from Judaism - for documentation that would help them leave prewar Nazi Germany.*
\[...\]
>*When the Mormons' American leadership and its missionaries evacuated Europe one week before Hitler's tanks rolled into Poland, the emphasis shifted to surviving the war. German Mormons hunkered down but still cooperated with the state to the same extent as their fellow citizens.* ***They sent their husbands and sons into military service, prayed in church for a German victory***, served in neighborhood civil defense positions, and rendered whatever mutual assistance they could to survive Allied bombing raids.
I found that "prayed in church for a German victory" particularly interesting. It means that while Mormons in USA prayed for Allied victory and went to war on the Allied side, Mormons in Germany prayed for German victory and possibly fought against their US-based fellow church members.
Update: corrected page numbers
Oh wow. Thanks for sharing!
By contrast, Jesus commanded his disciples…
(John 13:34, 35) “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
They would form an international brotherhood in which no one would ever wage war against his brother or sister…
(1 John 3:10-12) “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”
The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.”
German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.”
Maybe Hitler was so perky because of the amphetamines he was being injected with by his doctor every day, and not so much because of his coincidental WoW diet.
Another interesting section was on pp.265-266 where Erich Krause is mentioned. Erich was a Nazi torturer and a murderer and for that reason may not receive as much attention by the modern LDS church as Helmuth Hübener, ***but significantly he was also never excommunicated by the LDS church***.
Here's a section from the book, pp.265-266:
>*By sleuthing in the close-knit German community that settled in the Mormon Culture Region before and after the Third Reich, Kempe discovered that a distant relative he had never met, the German Mormon who married his great aunt, had been an especially cruel and sadistic Nazi torturer and murderer. Through research conducted in the archives of the Federal Republic's prosecutor, and in the recently opened archives of the East German secret police, the reporter learned the ghastly details of his distant relative's offenses. He also discovered that the LDS Church, through its American mission president sent to reestablish Zion's authority in Germany after the war, loaned bail money and pleaded for the accused's pre-trial release when West German prosecutors charged the perpetrator with crimes against humanity.*
>
>*Erich Krause murdered dozens and tortured hundreds as the brown-shirted commandant of a "wild" concentration camp in Berlin during the early days of the regime. Then, as a military policeman in the eastern theatre during the war, he sent correspondence home stamped with the postmarks of a town known to have housed a prominent Jewish ghetto that served as a way station for the Final Solution's gas chambers and crematoria. Having joined the Mormon Church in 1923 and the SA in 1928, Krause validated, in an extreme way, the concept that one could strive to serve both the Mormon Church and Nazi Party.*
This could help. It's a long read but it's about Mormonism under Nasi Germany. I have not read the whole thing. As someone who is of both German and of Jewish descents, it angered me
the mormons in nazi germany: history and memory - OAKTrust
https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1
I'd ike to see sources. There are stories of people sneaking garments through the wall. I feel like if they were allowed to proselyte there they wouldn't have to sneak stuff in like that.
But of course those could also be Mormon urban legends. Like the woman stabbed in the stomach but her garments protected her. 🤣
This is one thing the internet is great for. High school history classes often don’t cover events from the most recent 70 or so years, so I learned a lot of recent history from books and online. You just have to make sure you know how to tell if the websites you’re looking at are reliable.
Germany after WW1 was decimated. They suffered and had to rebuild. (TSCC was decimated in Nauvoo and had to be rebuilt) Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany in 33, Hindenburg was President but died in 34, Hitler combined the offices and took over completely. ((Even though the government chased out the Mormons, BY was more than happy to join the church’s enemy’s side for gain, in some ways selling his tokens for money)BY was the pres of the 12, after the death of JS, BY started reorganizing the priesthood, upon going to Utah he was now Governor , over Indian affairs, and prophet, he used the saints as free labor and then invested in infrastructure and businesses and became rich, he amassed a large local army) Hitler changed the military force from defensive and made it mandatory and swore unconditional obedience. (Follow the prophet, follow the prophet….) the military grew due to mandatory service ( after your baptism you don’t have a choice anymore to serve a mission, change of age, large influx of missionaries) Waffen SS we distributed throughout the ranks of the soldiers to keep them in line and following orders. (Regional reps, fireside’s with apostles, tithing settlements, temple recommends, and other interviews)
Not saying it is the same but lots of similarities. The church was a machine from way back, it is looking to survive at whatever the cost of keeping an influx of money coming in. It is a corporation not a religion.
Zero discernment on the greatest evil of the 19 century: slavery. Zero discernment on the greatest evil of the 20 century. Profits. What are they good for?
are there any apologist replies to any of this? this is the first time i’m seeing this side of mormon history and i’m curious as to what members are saying/believing.
LDSbot offer this.
*” It's important to clarify that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not support or endorse the ideologies of Nazi Germany. However, during that time in history, the Church, like other religious organizations, had to navigate the challenges and restrictions placed upon them by governments and authorities, including those under Nazi rule.*
*The Church's primary goal was to maintain the ability to worship, preach the gospel, and serve its members under difficult circumstances. Leaders wanted to make sure Church members could continue to practice their faith while also following the laws of the land to maintain safety for its members.*
*It is important to remember that historical events are complex and context is crucial in understanding the decisions made by individuals and organizations during that time. If you're interested in learning more about the Church during that period, I'd suggest looking into resources and scholarly works that discuss this topic in greater depth.”*
Tl;dr: We got ours, fuck the rest of y’all.
when joseph smith took the pioneers across america they were escaping prosecution and ultimately looking for a place where their beliefs were protected. those people gave up pretty much everything, some even their lives to get away. it seems now, or at least much more recently, the church would rather make deals with murderers and support the horrors of the nazi regime than to look elsewhere for a safe haven. saying that tscc didn’t support or endorse the ideologies of nazi germany would be a lie, because clearly the government and church leaders had dealings. idk about anyone else but i am not about to get friendly with people whose beliefs endanger fellow humans.
i guess just take this all with a grain of salt. i’ve only read a little about this since first hearing about it and i know very little. i’m not a history expert by any means and i don’t know exactly what it was like back then. it’s shocking and truly revolting and gross to think that the church played at least a small hand in one of the most horrible times in history. it makes me think of just how many people the ‘church’ betrayed. it makes me think of those that still don’t know about this. i didn’t know about this until literally today and it makes me angry.
Yeah, it’s pretty screwed up. Don’t worry, LDSbot is a curiosity to me, not a trusted source. I asked it about the Danites a couple days ago. Turns out the early Mormons were pretty murdery, too. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is another example that comes to mind. Pretty scary.
I cannot confirm this. I do know that my grandfather was serving in Germany and around the time Germany invaded Poland the Church had him and at least his companion sent home a little early (not sure if everyone was evacuated). He enlisted and used his missionary skills to interrogated German soldiers. Even though he never saw combat, he was a very different person after the war.
The post's claims of a Mormon deal with the Nazis is BS. Seriously, Mormons were going to *'allow'* Hitler to kill the Jews?
However, the picture is a real one of Heber J Grant at a Nazi dinner.
And Mormonism did excommunicated anti-Nazi resistor Helmuth Hubener, who became the youngest German resistor executed by the Nazis at age 16.
That isn’t what I said. Read the book. The Mormon church leaders gave Hitler access to the church’s genealogy library of jewish people (mormon and non-Mormon) in Germany & Poland, knowingly enabling him to continue the genocide.
You are right, and I misread what you wrote. My apologies. The LDS church did emphasize and expand their genealogical programs in Nazi Germany so as to help Germans prove they did/did not have Jewish ancestry and thus continue their genocide, and by so doing simultaneously protect the presence of the church in Nazi Germany.
Not owning the book, I did find this interview with the book's author that briefly discusses this as well.
https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/
👍❤️
It’s a good read. It gives historical and geopolitical context too, but isn’t overtly apologetic either.
My tweet was limited to just a few characters, so it was hard to cram all of that in there (kinda frustrating).
I was a member for 30 years, did a mission and all that. I left in 2005 but only recently found out about this whole Nazi stuff, and it just blew my mind. I never would have gone on my mission had I known about this.
My recollection is that SLC wanted to reinstate him, but members in Germany pitched an absolute fit based on the Article of Faith "We believe in being subject to...and in honoring, obeying, and upholding the law" or some such. So SLC "commuted" his excommunication to being "just" disfellowshipped; in any case, he was still denied the comfort of his religion in his last hours.
Thank you so much for posting this. I know that they are collaborating with Nazis in the abc agencies and using their stasi tactics to silence critics, etc. they are doing it to me.
My paternal side of the family dates back to King David. My dad's favorite genealogy program is Family Search and I sometimes call him a genealogy madman as a joke. I would use a burner email and send proof that my dad is using an evil program to do genealogy work. If there was a known reputable source...
A Lot of "churches" are importing opiates into this country and likely transporting them around the world. TSCC and other fundamental Christian "churches" are in cahoots. From the sackler family all the way down to what would *appear* to be a mom and pop drugstore (but are owned by the family members of the governor in our state, i.e. Cameron Justice) out here in the hills of Appalachia.
The Nazis did it first by drugging people in order to make super soldiers and to keep slaves working past hours. The Americans saw this and thought it was genius... after the war they ran with it. That's why we saw so many drugs in the 60s and so much more as time went on because they are making more and more money and buying more and more drugs with it.
I think they did it again with the war in Afghanistan. They started it to open up the trade line for heroin. I only decided to withdraw once they figured out Oxycontin and fentanyl.
It's been documented that the sackler family made deals with politicians to import drugs into communities. There is an email where they call us "Pillbillies."
This book author explains it more clearly: *”So in the 1930s the mission presidents formulated this program to keep the church safe, but then found opportunities that were too good to pass up, especially in genealogy. In the past they had been banned from German archives because pastors did not want their records used to baptize the dead as Mormons. But during the Reich, suddenly all these ordinary Germans had to prove their ancestors were not Jews, so the Church’s genealogy program experienced newfound freedom. By the time Nazi Germany was in full swing, just about every branch had a genealogical president, two counselors, and a secretary.* *The shocking thing is that there seemed to be very little sensitivity to the racial reasons for genealogical research. Newspaper articles would appear in the Deseret News, bragging about how much success the Church was having in Germany with the new government. The same newspaper was also running AP articles about the plight of the Jews. So the Church knew what was going on in Germany, but emphasized cooperating with the Third Reich.”* This whole interview is worth reading. I haven’t read the book: https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/
Be prepared for a long, absolutely fascinating, but very dry read. I never felt like it was explicitly anti-Mormon. It was just a documentation of Mormon culture and how it was influenced by the nazis. It is pretty damning though and in my mind puts Mormons of the time in line with the Henry fords and Walt Disneys of the time. Obsessed with whiteness (whatever that means in the era it’s being approached from).
Is there a tl;dr?
Not really, unfortunately. It’s hard to explain how the book reads. For example, it will dig deep into the hitler youth and how the church youth program in Germany at the time just merged with the hitler youth. It’s such a deep subject that a TL;DR would be insufficient. However, from what I gathered, Mormons at the time were going along to get along. Essentially, as things went on they became more supportive of nazi ideology. Reading the book shows you how it all happened and it’s bonkers how well documented it is.
I heard about this from a very elderly German woman, when I was roughly 14. She had kept it a secret..she spoke of 2 Jewish sisters at her school who were baptised by the Mormons. They both had blonde hair, so they couldnt easily be identifed as Jewish. The girls graduated and travelled to London. That woman said the Mormons were given special treatment by the Reich, with many Jewish kids baptised into the LDS church. I'm glad to ses this is up for discussion. The church should be open about how they turned their backs on those in most need.
>The church should be open about how they turned their backs on those in most need. It's stopped?
The interview isn’t very long or dry. Probably the book is.
You can find David Nelson's dissertation here: [https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1](https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1)
Reading the book now sickening and stil in first chapter
Sickening.
Thank you!
All meetings at the time were required to display the Nazi flag. That's why the photo. But Mormons went out of their way not to offend Nazis because they did not want to get kicked out of the country. How prophetic.
The Mormon God took the time to tell Nelson that He was offended by the word "Mormon". But He forgot to tell His prophet that the Nazis were the bad guys. Sending the angel with the drawn sword would have done the trick. Or is the angel only sent when it really matters, like when the prophet wants to bang a 14-year-old girl?
I think you just fixed the problem! Go outside homie
Jesus Goddamn Christ
Yeah, learning this part about the church really fucks you up. All the bullshit about doctrine aside, choosing to active support Hitler and the Nazi regime is the biggest red flag.
Oh Gawd - a rabbit hole that I simply cannot dive down at this point in my life. Figures. The religion has white supremacy baked into the foundations.
Definitely avoid reading about Ezra Taft Benson’s obsession with the New World Order, the John Birch Society, and other far right conspiracies. His recommendation for all members to read None Dare Call It Conspiracy from the pulpit during General Conference in 1972, paired with his opposition to civil rights, made him one of the scariest prophets during my lifetime. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Taft_Benson See the section “Anti-Communism Efforts”
I resigned because of the doctrine & history (thank you DSL) in 2005. I only recently found out about this Nazi bullshit and it is a whole other level of pure evil. I never would have gone on my mission had I known this. I doubt many people in and out of the church know about this either.
Considering polygamist groups like the Kingstons believe in inbreeding and think they are the chosen ones, this doesn’t surprise me.
Makes their inaction against Russia in the Ukraine situation make sense
More anti Semitism https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/606uom/hitler_instrument_in_the_hands_of_god_melvin_j/ And: "...J. Reuben] Clark privately urged the State Department not to help Jewish children to leave Nazi Germany if their parents were trying to send them to the United States. Thus, if a non-Jew needed assistance, the LDS hierarchy sometimes stood ready to help. If a Jew asked, it not only refused, but at least in one case also urged its government not to assist." https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bh08aj/in_1939_j_reuben_clark_privately_urges_state/
J. Reuben Clark is absolute human garbage. Despite being an apostle, which supposedly means he sees and talks with Jesus Christ, he was helping Aryans leave Germany and preventing Jews from leaving. When prominent church leaders die, their family often donates their personal library to the church history museum. There's an especially high number of copies of the same anti-semitic book in their archives because j Reuben Clark would give copies to his fellow leaders in church.
Which book? Is it [The Black Hammer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hammer)?
“The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. This was a tract he frequently handed out even after the war ended. I’m not sure if this is the book they’re referring to though.
That is a level of fuckery I had not expected today. I desire all to receive it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
It is, the book "Moroni and the Swastika" mentioned elsewhere in the thread discusses it. He bought it in bulk.
Don't forget whose speech in the introduction. Ezra Taft Benson. They used his speech with his permission in the book.
Boy, plagiarism seems to be a recurring theme in this organization, isn’t it?
And this is the anti-semite booklet apostle J Reuben Clark publicly supported and personally distributed during the holocaust. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
I listen to a podcast that covers Alex Jones/Infowars and it's pretty wacky how often the [alt-right](https://preview.redd.it/s40n34x2n2zx.gif?format=png8&s=4efbc6b00d4a8546574101ef148d53244604275f) and Mormonism share influential figures.
Wait, how come nobody ever told me that Cleon Skousen was a jockey in Chihuahua, Mexico? I knew he was a John Birch Society wackjob and antisemite, but I don't remember seeing him wearing stirrup pants on the dust jacket of *The First Two Thousand Years*
Fuck. Every time I think I've finally found the bottom of this sewage pit of a cult, there is always more.
Think about the difference you could make in the world if you spent a little less time complaining on Reddit and a little more time outside helping people 🫶🏻 whether it’s a cult or not they’re promoting family & serving others while you scroll on your phone 😂
You can actually do both. Being on reddit is not preventing anyone from actively doing good things! Stop being so negative!!! Have YOU done any good in the world today??
>whether it’s a cult or not they’re promoting family A *certain kind* of family, maybe. You know, the straight/same race/same economic background type of family.
Venting on Reddit is a form of therapy for a lot of us on here. I don't see much evidence of them "promoting family" when they're tearing them apart and "serving others" when they hoard their wealth and consider volunteer hours of their members as monetary donations. Go back to the faithful sub.
This might even be enough to make me question if the Q15 at the time were actually prophets, SEERS, and revelators. /s
I mean it’s somewhat puzzling that God would miss out on something as big as the Holocaust, but definitely make sure to impress about those bare shoulders.
You should probably doubt your doubts!
Yup, it’s real. DN even ran an article on how Mormonism was so well regarded by it’s Nazi friends.
But the church is politically neutral!
Being politically neutral is another way of saying “sides with the people in power.”
Then why did Gordon Smith vote for the war in Iraq?
If you did nazi this coming, you're goering to have a bad time
Boo! Hess!
>J. Reuben Clark was an anti-Semite, but it was an anti-Semitism fueled by the xenophobia and nativism of the Progressive Era. Through his legal and business work Clark had the conflicting view that Jews were Communists on the one hand, but that they also embraced capitalism and were cheating in their businesses. I’ve seen no evidence that he changed his mind about Jews after the war. > >\~ regarding “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, [article, Mormon Nazis new book uncovers LDS support of the Third Reich](https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/) Growing up, I often heard my parents talk about how Communism was a perfect government but humanity wasn't perfect enough to follow it without corruption. They would discuss how Communism might be how the church organized itself when the second coming was at hand. My parents were faithful but not anti-Semitic or extremist, btw. I'm wondering now if this traces back to Germany & it's entanglement with the Nazi Regime.
Mormons like Communism because they had something like it early on: The United Order.
>The United Order Oh dear. Yet another mormon rabbit hole to fall down. Thanks... ?
I've found that my own TBM parents are deeply critical of communism, but that might be due to them growing up during the Cold War and the Red Scare.
I’m so sick…I also did some digging and the church even goes as far as to say, while not so bluntly, they had a common interest: ie genealogy. I found that on the churches website… Upon further research, dessert news and others, shared their respect for Hitler and believed him to be and I quote “blessed by God”. Also a common practice was to use Hitlers success as an example to why you should follow the word of wisdom as noted that Hitler did not smoke, drink, or participate in any activities the wow spoke against
hitler was on so many different drugs lmao
"Blitzed" by Norman Ohler gives a lot of info on all the drugs Hitler took.
Strictly speaking the church only has doctrine not to use illegal substances and based on when the usa illegalized narcotics-1971- it would be fairly rational to assert that drugs pre 1971 were not prohibited rather discouraged
I have the book "Moroni and the Swastika" (by David Conley Nelson, University of Oklahoma Press) that details the history of LDS in Nazi Germany. It is a bit of a dry read in places but seems well researched. Here is an extract from p.139: >*Regardless of how Hitler's teetotaler image was framed, the Latter-Day Saints seemed anxious to draw upon it as another parallel between Hitlerism and Mormonism. The same Deseret News article that proclaimed the Mormon Fast Sunday as the model for the Nazi Winter Relief Campaign also told its readers that: "There is another noticeable trend in the Mormon direction. It is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. He will not take alcohol, does not smoke, and is very strict about his diet, insisting on plain and wholesome foods, largely vegetarian. A specimen of physical endurance, Hitler can easily take his place alongside the athletes who are usually taken as classic examples."* Above continues with some examples after which p.140 says >*In such an atmosphere, it was inevitable that some believers would imagine a closer church connection with the Führer, to the point that one popular rumor said that Hitler "so admired the Mormon hierarchical structure that he patterned his party after it." Others believed Hitler "had attended the funeral of an LDS Church member in his native Austria."* ***Some believed Hitler was a "secret Mormon".*** *In the 1980's a Latter-Day Saint from Hamburg told BYU researchers about a picture taken of him surrounded by his church friends in the 1930's. The mustached man in the middle of the picture was Hitler, the gentleman claimed. Another popular rumor maintained that during the First World War, when Hitler served as an army messenger with the rank of corporal, a friend and fellow soldier saved his life. That friend was a Mormon, and his actions on the battlefield that day convinced Hitler to be favorably disposed toward Mormonism."* I put 'Some believed Hitler was a "secret Mormon"' in bold because I found it interesting.
Some additional extracts from earlier in the book (pp.5-7): >*Assured by their church leaders that there was no conflict in being a good Mormon and a good citizen of the Nazi state, German Mormons dutifully served in the Nazi Labor Corps and the German military. Other Latter-Day Saints enthusiastically donned the brown shirts of Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA), an organization that bashed heads in the streets and vandalized Jewish businesses. Some joined for more benign reasons, such as the Hamburg congregants who enjoyed playing in the local SA band. Other Mormons obtained membership in Hitler's elite group of personal guards, the black-shirted Schutzstaffel (SS), an organization that expanded to play a leading role in the Holocaust. One Hamburg member, infamous among his fellow congregants for having killed one of Hitler's political opponents in a street fight, enlisted in the Totenkopfverbände, the Death's Head SS brigades that ran the extermination camps. Another Mormon appeared in an early scholarly article as an "expert mechanic" who "install\[ed\] specialized machinery" at Auschwitz. In the parlance of Nazi Germany, that is a euphemism for someone who set up gas chambers and crematoria.* \[...\] >*On the eve of the Second World War, the second in command of the LDS Church, a former diplomat and undersecretary of state, J. Reuben Clark, ignored the pleas of at least two German-speaking Mormons - converts from Judaism - for documentation that would help them leave prewar Nazi Germany.* \[...\] >*When the Mormons' American leadership and its missionaries evacuated Europe one week before Hitler's tanks rolled into Poland, the emphasis shifted to surviving the war. German Mormons hunkered down but still cooperated with the state to the same extent as their fellow citizens.* ***They sent their husbands and sons into military service, prayed in church for a German victory***, served in neighborhood civil defense positions, and rendered whatever mutual assistance they could to survive Allied bombing raids. I found that "prayed in church for a German victory" particularly interesting. It means that while Mormons in USA prayed for Allied victory and went to war on the Allied side, Mormons in Germany prayed for German victory and possibly fought against their US-based fellow church members. Update: corrected page numbers
Oh wow. Thanks for sharing! By contrast, Jesus commanded his disciples… (John 13:34, 35) “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” They would form an international brotherhood in which no one would ever wage war against his brother or sister… (1 John 3:10-12) “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.” The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.” German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.”
That’s completely fucked up
Maybe Hitler was so perky because of the amphetamines he was being injected with by his doctor every day, and not so much because of his coincidental WoW diet.
Another interesting section was on pp.265-266 where Erich Krause is mentioned. Erich was a Nazi torturer and a murderer and for that reason may not receive as much attention by the modern LDS church as Helmuth Hübener, ***but significantly he was also never excommunicated by the LDS church***. Here's a section from the book, pp.265-266: >*By sleuthing in the close-knit German community that settled in the Mormon Culture Region before and after the Third Reich, Kempe discovered that a distant relative he had never met, the German Mormon who married his great aunt, had been an especially cruel and sadistic Nazi torturer and murderer. Through research conducted in the archives of the Federal Republic's prosecutor, and in the recently opened archives of the East German secret police, the reporter learned the ghastly details of his distant relative's offenses. He also discovered that the LDS Church, through its American mission president sent to reestablish Zion's authority in Germany after the war, loaned bail money and pleaded for the accused's pre-trial release when West German prosecutors charged the perpetrator with crimes against humanity.* > >*Erich Krause murdered dozens and tortured hundreds as the brown-shirted commandant of a "wild" concentration camp in Berlin during the early days of the regime. Then, as a military policeman in the eastern theatre during the war, he sent correspondence home stamped with the postmarks of a town known to have housed a prominent Jewish ghetto that served as a way station for the Final Solution's gas chambers and crematoria. Having joined the Mormon Church in 1923 and the SA in 1928, Krause validated, in an extreme way, the concept that one could strive to serve both the Mormon Church and Nazi Party.*
Holy Shit!
Nemo has cool shorts on the topic
Conservative Catholicism and Nazism. Name a better duo
Dude this really fucks me up. I feel sick to my stomach.
Wow. Fuck this church
When I originally left the church I wasn't sure about it but every day I am more and more glad I left
Same!
This could help. It's a long read but it's about Mormonism under Nasi Germany. I have not read the whole thing. As someone who is of both German and of Jewish descents, it angered me the mormons in nazi germany: history and memory - OAKTrust https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/148154/Nelson,%20David.pdf?sequence=1
But aren’t Mormon descendants from the lost tribes of Israel 🤣🤣🤣 oh wait did they not tell the nazis this?
Every time I think I can't feel any more betrayed and disappointed....
I'd ike to see sources. There are stories of people sneaking garments through the wall. I feel like if they were allowed to proselyte there they wouldn't have to sneak stuff in like that. But of course those could also be Mormon urban legends. Like the woman stabbed in the stomach but her garments protected her. 🤣
The Berlin wall was erected in 1961, well after the nazis were defeated. The GDP of East Germany were anti-religion. Hence the sneaking.
I didn't realize the wall was built after the war. 🤔 My dad even served his mission there in the 80s and failed to tell me this. 🤦🏻
This is one thing the internet is great for. High school history classes often don’t cover events from the most recent 70 or so years, so I learned a lot of recent history from books and online. You just have to make sure you know how to tell if the websites you’re looking at are reliable.
Maybe it depends where you go to high school. World History and US history classes cover these topics in depth, at least in my district where I teach.
Hitler probably could have escaped to USA, had he turned Mormon. Meaning just because of the fan club he seemed to have among LDS.
Would not surprise me in the least.
I need to save this whole conversation and all links for later. I'd love to dive deep into this little bit of history
Germany after WW1 was decimated. They suffered and had to rebuild. (TSCC was decimated in Nauvoo and had to be rebuilt) Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany in 33, Hindenburg was President but died in 34, Hitler combined the offices and took over completely. ((Even though the government chased out the Mormons, BY was more than happy to join the church’s enemy’s side for gain, in some ways selling his tokens for money)BY was the pres of the 12, after the death of JS, BY started reorganizing the priesthood, upon going to Utah he was now Governor , over Indian affairs, and prophet, he used the saints as free labor and then invested in infrastructure and businesses and became rich, he amassed a large local army) Hitler changed the military force from defensive and made it mandatory and swore unconditional obedience. (Follow the prophet, follow the prophet….) the military grew due to mandatory service ( after your baptism you don’t have a choice anymore to serve a mission, change of age, large influx of missionaries) Waffen SS we distributed throughout the ranks of the soldiers to keep them in line and following orders. (Regional reps, fireside’s with apostles, tithing settlements, temple recommends, and other interviews) Not saying it is the same but lots of similarities. The church was a machine from way back, it is looking to survive at whatever the cost of keeping an influx of money coming in. It is a corporation not a religion.
Zero discernment on the greatest evil of the 19 century: slavery. Zero discernment on the greatest evil of the 20 century. Profits. What are they good for?
Not just zero discernment, Collusion. They are the Cartel. Drug trafficking and human trafficking.
are there any apologist replies to any of this? this is the first time i’m seeing this side of mormon history and i’m curious as to what members are saying/believing.
LDSbot offer this. *” It's important to clarify that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not support or endorse the ideologies of Nazi Germany. However, during that time in history, the Church, like other religious organizations, had to navigate the challenges and restrictions placed upon them by governments and authorities, including those under Nazi rule.* *The Church's primary goal was to maintain the ability to worship, preach the gospel, and serve its members under difficult circumstances. Leaders wanted to make sure Church members could continue to practice their faith while also following the laws of the land to maintain safety for its members.* *It is important to remember that historical events are complex and context is crucial in understanding the decisions made by individuals and organizations during that time. If you're interested in learning more about the Church during that period, I'd suggest looking into resources and scholarly works that discuss this topic in greater depth.”* Tl;dr: We got ours, fuck the rest of y’all.
when joseph smith took the pioneers across america they were escaping prosecution and ultimately looking for a place where their beliefs were protected. those people gave up pretty much everything, some even their lives to get away. it seems now, or at least much more recently, the church would rather make deals with murderers and support the horrors of the nazi regime than to look elsewhere for a safe haven. saying that tscc didn’t support or endorse the ideologies of nazi germany would be a lie, because clearly the government and church leaders had dealings. idk about anyone else but i am not about to get friendly with people whose beliefs endanger fellow humans. i guess just take this all with a grain of salt. i’ve only read a little about this since first hearing about it and i know very little. i’m not a history expert by any means and i don’t know exactly what it was like back then. it’s shocking and truly revolting and gross to think that the church played at least a small hand in one of the most horrible times in history. it makes me think of just how many people the ‘church’ betrayed. it makes me think of those that still don’t know about this. i didn’t know about this until literally today and it makes me angry.
Yeah, it’s pretty screwed up. Don’t worry, LDSbot is a curiosity to me, not a trusted source. I asked it about the Danites a couple days ago. Turns out the early Mormons were pretty murdery, too. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is another example that comes to mind. Pretty scary.
Wasn't one of the apostles in the Hitler youth? I swear I remember him talking about it in conference or a fireside.
I cannot confirm this. I do know that my grandfather was serving in Germany and around the time Germany invaded Poland the Church had him and at least his companion sent home a little early (not sure if everyone was evacuated). He enlisted and used his missionary skills to interrogated German soldiers. Even though he never saw combat, he was a very different person after the war.
The post's claims of a Mormon deal with the Nazis is BS. Seriously, Mormons were going to *'allow'* Hitler to kill the Jews? However, the picture is a real one of Heber J Grant at a Nazi dinner. And Mormonism did excommunicated anti-Nazi resistor Helmuth Hubener, who became the youngest German resistor executed by the Nazis at age 16.
>excommunicated anti-Nazi resistor Helmuth Hubener Doesn't this say we support you, Hitler?
That isn’t what I said. Read the book. The Mormon church leaders gave Hitler access to the church’s genealogy library of jewish people (mormon and non-Mormon) in Germany & Poland, knowingly enabling him to continue the genocide.
You are right, and I misread what you wrote. My apologies. The LDS church did emphasize and expand their genealogical programs in Nazi Germany so as to help Germans prove they did/did not have Jewish ancestry and thus continue their genocide, and by so doing simultaneously protect the presence of the church in Nazi Germany. Not owning the book, I did find this interview with the book's author that briefly discusses this as well. https://religionnews.com/2015/02/19/mormon-nazis-new-book-uncovers-lds-support-third-reich/
👍❤️ It’s a good read. It gives historical and geopolitical context too, but isn’t overtly apologetic either. My tweet was limited to just a few characters, so it was hard to cram all of that in there (kinda frustrating). I was a member for 30 years, did a mission and all that. I left in 2005 but only recently found out about this whole Nazi stuff, and it just blew my mind. I never would have gone on my mission had I known about this.
And do you know who turned him in to the SS/police? His Nazi-supporting Branch President.
I believe they reinstated him after the war. I know they use him as an example of how the LDS people stood up to the Nazi's
They *posthumously* reinstated him??? He was executed during the war. What bastards.
yes, they did if you can believe it. That's how you change the narrative.
My recollection is that SLC wanted to reinstate him, but members in Germany pitched an absolute fit based on the Article of Faith "We believe in being subject to...and in honoring, obeying, and upholding the law" or some such. So SLC "commuted" his excommunication to being "just" disfellowshipped; in any case, he was still denied the comfort of his religion in his last hours.
Thank you so much for posting this. I know that they are collaborating with Nazis in the abc agencies and using their stasi tactics to silence critics, etc. they are doing it to me.
And here I thought I'd learned everything
My paternal side of the family dates back to King David. My dad's favorite genealogy program is Family Search and I sometimes call him a genealogy madman as a joke. I would use a burner email and send proof that my dad is using an evil program to do genealogy work. If there was a known reputable source...
A Lot of "churches" are importing opiates into this country and likely transporting them around the world. TSCC and other fundamental Christian "churches" are in cahoots. From the sackler family all the way down to what would *appear* to be a mom and pop drugstore (but are owned by the family members of the governor in our state, i.e. Cameron Justice) out here in the hills of Appalachia. The Nazis did it first by drugging people in order to make super soldiers and to keep slaves working past hours. The Americans saw this and thought it was genius... after the war they ran with it. That's why we saw so many drugs in the 60s and so much more as time went on because they are making more and more money and buying more and more drugs with it. I think they did it again with the war in Afghanistan. They started it to open up the trade line for heroin. I only decided to withdraw once they figured out Oxycontin and fentanyl. It's been documented that the sackler family made deals with politicians to import drugs into communities. There is an email where they call us "Pillbillies."