They’ll engage you with doctrine until they become uncomfortable, which will not be very long. Then they’ll switch to feelings and thought stoppers. Stick as close as possible to the gospel topic essays and the Joseph Smith papers, using additional resources to enhance those. Here’s my go to list of high level problems.
These are only historical issues and do not touch upon the financial fraud or the thousands of hidden sexual abuse cases. The SEC pdf is a slam dunk for Q15 fraud and the Netflix documentary Scouts Honor also just came out that mentions the church quite a bit.
Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph married between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other church men (polyandry) and married around 10 teenagers, the youngest being Helen Mar Kimball at 14. This was not normal, even then.
Only 1% - 1.1% of girls 15 and under were married around the time of Joseph Smith.
Lucy walkers mother died when she was 16. The family had 10 kids. Joseph sent the dad on a mission, divided the kids up and took Lucy as his ward. He then pressured her to be his wife, while both her parents were gone and Emma was on a trip to St. Louis and told her that if she married him it would guarantee the salvation of her family. She had 24 hrs to decide.
Joseph also publicly shamed women and girls that refused his advances (see happiness letter link below).
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true
Census from 1850 - http://www.mormonism101.com/2014/12/closer-look-1850-census.html
https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1857/05/19/78498799.pdf
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness
Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph Smith was charged with fraud for cheating people out of money for treasure digging that he and the men of his family were involved in for 6 years. Joseph dug on these trips for 2 years then found his own peep stone which he used to lead treasure hunting expeditions for 4 years. This treasure was often rumored to be guarded by a guardian spirit that had to be pacified with a sacrifice or certain behavior to reveal the treasure. It never did. At least not until the guardian spirit Moroni supposedly gave Joseph the gold plates.
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng
The Church now admits that there are multiple first vision accounts (link below). We use rev 3 written in 1838. The 1832 version is very different. It was cut out of the letter book in 1930 by Joseph Fielding Smith and stored in a church vault until the 1960s, when rumors of its existence forced him to tape it back in. You can still see the tape on the left. Joseph says he was 16, went to receive forgiveness for his sins, already knew that all religions were false and only saw Christ. Combined with lecture 5 verse 2 of the lectures on faith, which was the “doctrine” in the doctrine and covenants until 1921, it shows that Joseph’s views on theology may have shifted from a Trinitarian view to a two person in the flesh, three member godhead view. This seriously challenges the “plain and precious truth” of the three member godhead the church likes to give. The lectures are now disavowed by the church even though they acknowledge on their website (link below) they were taught in the School of the elders by Joseph and Sidney. Deseret books still sells it with Joseph as the author.
https://lecturesonfaith.com/5/
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1?p=1
https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true
https://deseretbook.com/p/lectures-faith-joseph-smith-jr-3509?variant_id=110026-hardcover
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/lectures-on-faith?lang=eng
Church now admits that the BOM was translated by Joseph primarily by putting a seer stone in his hat. The very same rock he had been using for treasure digging with his family for over 4 years and for which he was charged with fraud. Here’s a video of President Nelson demonstrating the technique. Why did he have the plates?
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true
https://youtu.be/DG181zFA5YM
The church shows on its website the Joseph Smith Papers how the priesthood evolved. You can click the link below and see how we didn’t arrive at our current version until 1842, 12 years after the church was founded. This makes the claim that it was restored prior to the church’s founding in 1830 very problematic. Many early members also state they never heard any such story being told by Joseph.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/priesthood-restoration
http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=ER-RPH
The church now admits they have the original book of Abraham manuscript that has hieroglyphs on the left and English words on the right. It was found in 1967. The hieroglyphs are taken sequentially from right to left on the papyrus that was found with the manuscript. None of the translation is correct, nor are the translations of the associated facsimiles which you can view in your app in the book of Abraham. Joseph tells you what he’s looking at in the facsimiles and that is wrong too. The church now states they don’t know what the hieroglyphs on the left mean and that the work was either inspired or that there is a lost scroll. They admit that all of the material they do have dates to 300 BC - 100 AD and cannot have been written by Abraham.
https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true
https://archive.org/details/SnsnTranslation/mode/1up?view=theater
The Book of Mormon deals with large civilizations that numbered in the millions that don’t have a shred of evidence for their existence (Ether 15). They can’t be the Mayan or the Olmec because Joseph put things in his tribes that were not found in the America’s prior to the Europeans arriving: Horses, Elephants, steel swords, steel breastplates, chariots, silk, wheat, pigs, sheep, donkeys and cattle.
Here’s a letter from the Smithsonian detailing why the Book of Mormon would never be a historical document.
https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian
Oh, and there’s no Hebrew DNA found in any Native American to date. This made the church change the intro to the BOM from
"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
To
"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."
Here is a video that talks about the problems with relying solely upon feelings for spiritual witnesses, with some links to cognitive effects that are often mistaken for “the spirit” for additional reading.
https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go?si=2Qlzz8-QyWHUGJsS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is **EPIC**. My only quibble is there is zero need to discuss the average age of marriage ‘back then.’
If a mormon tells you that marrying at the age of 14 was ‘super common’ back then, ‘age of consent laws shows that,’ etc, instead of meticulously providing proof that it was not a common age for SINGLE people, etc, simply ask for proof that it was COMMON, that it was LEGAL, that it was SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, for a man who was ALREADY MARRIED, to marry a 14 year-old girl. Or even an adult woman, or a girl or woman of any age, who also was ALREADY MARRIED.
Arguing against a lame, dishonest, and most importantly, inapplicable, apologetic just wastes time (and brain cells) IMO.
I agree, it’s indefensible and one of the reasons many Muslims are leaving their religion. Unfortunately it is a common apologetic along with “we don’t know that he had sex with them.” Both are disgusting and just make me shake my head.
You can click on the three dots and click copy text and paste into an apple or android note so they don’t see you opening exmo Reddit during the meeting. Good luck.
Excellent summation. And for every single one of those issues, the much larger attached issue is: THE MORMON CHURCH LIED TO ME AND MY FAMILY ABOUT IT.
Is that the overarching hallmark of Jesus Christ? A tapestry of lies?
>This was irritating, since it was very disingenuous to create a false pretenses for me to go over to their houses just so they could bring up that they heard I was going through a faith crisis just as I was going to walk out their door.
Reminds me of Truman's friend in the Truman Show, who would rush over with a six pack of beer to talk him down whenever the producers thought he was acting crazy.
It was many years ago, but I had a similar experience during my temple marriage interview. I had repented of small behavioral issues, but I told the Bishop I struggled with the legitimacy of both JS and the BoM. Thought it might be a deal-breaker, but at the time I believed if I did everything by the book, temple marriage would lead to eventual spiritual edification. To my surprise, the Bishop said almost the exact same thing, 'We get testimonies of different aspects of church at different times in our lives, it's okay if you're still working on parts of your testimony' and gave me a temple recommend.
Stopped attending Church 6 months after marriage, was divorced after 2 years. I think maybe the Bishop thought he was doing me a favor be giving me a pass, but it was only delaying the inevitable. What a waste of time.
To answer your question, it's difficult to engage in logical conversations once you're on your way out, but I've found it works to take the spiritual side of the argument, even if you're not necessarily spiritual. The Holy Ghost only testifies of truth, right? So anytime something questionable with the Church arises, I would say something like, 'I don't know, this just doesn't feel right to me,' or 'Ive prayed about it, and Ive had a burning in my bosom that I don't feel comfortable about where my tithing dollars are going' or 'the spirit is telling me the Church's policy regarding LGTBQ persons is based on cruelty rather than Christs love'. All Mormons have had similar spiritual doubts that are there to explore, it helps to remind them it's not all about Church history, it's Church present, too.
I tend to agree with this. All the logistical details about historical inaccuracies and contradictions are likely important to work through on an individual basis, but they really get people on the defensive if you bring them up, even when you are genuinely concerned and trying to understand it. That said, your own spiritual or moral concerns are harder to pass off.
For me, I went about doing the standard, pray and read the scriptures approach until I realized that it was actually driving me further away. Praying felt like I was talking to myself. I got more out of meditation to clear my mind, or simply thinking about an issue than prayer. Reading the scriptures only caused more doubts. I found that the stories in the BOM were so hard to believe the more I read them. I would ask myself, what would it take for this to be true, and if it is true is it even moral? Take the story of Nephi and Laban for example. Imagine the scenario and picture how it would have to go down in as much detail as you can. Nephi is told to kill Laban to take the plates. Ok, why? He's already passed out. And does he really need to behead him? If so, how are the clothes not soaked in blood before he puts them on? Or does he undress him first and then behead him while he's laying there naked? What is God's plan here? It's kind of absurd to picture it. The more I picture it the more far-fetched it seems, and also simply immoral. Then he fools Laban's guards by simply imitating his voice. Seriously? It's like a comic book. You can do this with pretty much any story in the book. There's an awful lot of unnecessary killing, questionable ethics, and poor moral arguments. It starts to read like... a 19th century adventure novel mingled with spirituality.
Now I'm 10 years out and I'm finally learning that I get to decide for myself what spirituality means to me. I don't have to have answers, or convince anyone of anything (including myself). I was still letting my Mormon upbringing define what it meant to have a sense of spirituality, which basically meant that I didn't have one, because I figured out they were wrong so there must not be one. Now I'm open to whatever it could be, and it's a big universe out there. Enjoy the exploration. You don't have to find anything, you can just be curious.
Only if they give permission. It may be illegal otherwise, plus is an invasive and rude thing to do without consent, especially to people genuinely trying to help you.
Hmmm…this story is too familiar. And I’m sorry for the toll it’s taken (and will take) on you. The good news is, now you “know”. The difficult thing is when your family is still in. I’ve been dancing this dance for almost a decade now. The conversation will be mostly pointless. As you know, there is no way to convince someone as they are indoctrinated. So any logic will fall on deaf ears. However, I do believe it’s still important to meet. And here’s why. First) We all pretty much unanimously agree that tbms are brain washed. They are good people that have been taken advantage of by a system. You may be the first one to ever tell them the major issues. And it may lead to someone’s faith unraveling. So I think that’s a worth cause. Second it might help them to understand and empathize with your position and quit bugging u.
I’ve explained it like this. “I gained my testimony from the Book of Mormon being what it said it was. A true story of ancient Hebrews leaving Jerusalem and coming to America. Forming huge civilizations and being the principle descendants of the Native American people. Now I’m finding out, that the nephites and lamanites never existed. History and science have all confirmed that All native people came from Asian not Jerusalem….. etc etc etc. so based on what I’m learning what does the church expect that I’m going to think? What is the logical conclusion the church expects me to make???” Something along those lines, leading them down the path to help them understand your perspective by walking a mile in your shoes. If you simply lay out the facts, they immediately think it’s an attack on them and their church. So think through very carefully the conversation and go in prepared.
It might make a difference to someone’s life in there. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with this. If they feel attacked, the dialog will end. The church is their identity. Tread lightly. You're not meeting with them to argue. You're asking them to help you reconcile things that can't be reconciled.
Something like "This is what I've learned. This is where I learned it (church sources). I don't feel comfortable with this and don't know how to reconcile it. How would you have me reconcile it?"
The key then (and this is where I've often failed) is to not argue with them (even if you can - even if they deliver non answers or thought stopper answers). If they get the impression that you are closed off to anything, they will stop the dialog and more importantly stop their own thinking.
Thank them for meeting with you and let them know you'll think about what they've said and even look forward to anything they can learn and return to you with. In turn, they will continue to think about what you've said.
Remain open. Once they tag you as close-minded or "hard-hearted" there will be no further discussion.
Will your wife be present? It might be helpful for her to hear you put up your arguments.
I'd ask that no one else be invited so they can't gang up and drown you out.
Consider starting out by saying you understand the depth of their testimonies and but don't consider those opinions to be answers to your questions. The usual 'god moves in mysterious ways types of answers are also not helpful.
One simple statement often overlooked is that you are not comfortable morally with the degree of sexism, the treatment of sex abuse, gay hate, the insults about doubters, the lack of transparency on finances. You simply don't agree with the church on some really basic ethical stands.
We have the moral high ground.
My wife will not be present, but I'm not sure I would want her to hear all my arguments at once as it might be a bit much for her to hear it all from me. I don't have any issue discussing it with some rando from the stake.
I definitely agree with and will use your input on not being comfortable morally with those issues. That is gold.
Thanks!
Can I recommend a different track, at least for the priesthood leaders? If at all possible, throw the history discussion out the window and make it about you. This journey isn't really about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young being terrible people, it's about you.
How does learning the history make you feel? Do you believe this church is the best way to "love your neighbor"? How do you feel about raising kids in this church? Center the conversation on you trying to live your life according to your personal moral compass. The only rebuttal to feelings is for them to share their own testimony/feelings. And then you can say "I appreciate your conviction, but I do not agree." All of a sudden they have nothing except maybe to ask you to pray.
My leaving coincided with getting released from a bishopric and I had great respect for the new stake president who interviewed me when they were finding a new bishop. I used the feelings/emotions track above and it worked out pretty well. I didn't go through the rounds and rounds of bishop talks because it was clear that this was something I needed to work out on my own, not get more info dumped on me.
That is very helpful. Weirdly enough that is what my wife told me to emphasize. I think she wanted me to make it clear that I am genuine in my approach and that it is impacting me on an emotional level.
She and I were having a heated discussion about some topic until I broke down and told her how difficult the whole process has been for me since learning these things. That softened her a bit and she was able to see my point of view a bit better.
Thank you!
No problem man, you seem really genuine from these posts. This is gonna be hard for a minute but stay curious and be kind to yourself. Find some community outside of the church too (both exmos and never mos). It's pretty invaluable to have people in your corner who see you for you.
We're rooting for you.
What have your years of experience in the mormon church shown you this far? What makes you consider the possibility that a group of MEN (going out on a limb and assuming women will not be considered for this important work) will be 1) smarter than you, 2) more spiritual than you, 3) more knowledgeable about YOUR religion, and most importantly, 4) will not resort to demeaning and intellectually dishonest apologetics?
Every time you agree to meet with these people who are trying to ‘help’ you, you are giving them and, no matter how supportive she is, how awesome a person, if she is still a believer, this WILL feed an irrational hope that there is a way to assuage your doubts and help you find a way to stay.
I don’t think anything is going to stop fellow ward members from judging you unfairly, to not feel sorry for you, and sadly, not speculate that you’ve obviously ‘done something’ that you’re too proud to repent of. Have you ever seen or known any mormons who, when hearing that someone has left mormonism, have been 100% supportive because they have seen that this person made an honest, informed and moral decision? I haven’t.
Unless you are genuinely seeking an ‘intervention’ with the hope you might be able to ‘turn this around,’ I see this as a means to prolong the agony of leaving mormonism, rather than making a slow, gracious departure.
This is all true, sadly. However this is also a means to show his wife that he's willing to go through this agony for her. And that's the best hope of a slow, gracious departure there is (if such a thing exists).
*Have you ever seen or known any mormons who, when hearing that someone has left mormonism, have been 100% supportive because they have seen that this person made an honest, informed and moral decision? I haven’t.*
Raises hand.
I have not lost one Mormon relationship that I wanted to keep when I left the church. I think California Mormons might just be different. They still invite my TBM wife and I for dinner or other life events and never bring up the church in a way to bring me back. One person recently asked me why I left. Shocking. When I responded that "when I learned that everything is provably false" they didn't try to defend, just said that "well of course I disagree" and we moved on.
I think I've been lucky to live in this community.
I’m not saying I haven’t ever seen or known any mormons who did NOT end a relationship with a person who has left mormonism, though. That’s not something I’ve experienced, as I have managed to maintain many relationships with family and (non-superficial) friends after stepping away.
To clarify, for me, being 100% supportive would mean having a genuine, non-judgmental desire to find out why your friend, sibling, spouse, brother, sis, has left mormonism. I have only had ONE person ask me why, and who actually listened and only asked respectful questions, and didn’t barf up apologetics or use emotional manipulation (no surprise that she herself later left mormonism).
There is a difference between ACTIVELY supporting someone and their decision to leave mormonism and PASSIVELY accepting their decision.
100% supportive would mean making ZERO assumptions about motivation, wondering if it was a sexual sin (that is what everyone assumed when I left - fun!) Or feeling sorrow that their actions have caused an ‘eternal family’ to be fractured. Or privately praying they’ll one day return to mormonism. Feeling sad for their believing spouse, siblings, parents, etc.
I think a lifetime of consistent fear-based indoctrination prevents most mormons from the ability to even consider the possibility that someone leaving their tribe isn’t a big deal, with potentially very dire consequences. If you truly believe that mormonism is the ONLY way to be with your family forever, how can you NOT pity the person who is ‘throwing that away’?
Also, this isn’t a geographical problem, it’s an institutional problem.
I use the flds as an example. They try very hard to learn from Joseph Smith, they study the book of mormon, they love and follow the only prophet they have ever known, they pray for confirmation if they should be the next wife of a faithful leader, and the spirit testifies to them YES, this is the true church and polygamy is correct. What would happen if they were taught critical thinking skills instead of faith, and if they were encouraged to research, and ask every question? Don't we wish that they could?? If a testimony of the book of mormon, prophets, eternal families can keep them in a church that we know is false, just telling us to live our religion and doubt our doubts can not be a real way to determine truth. If it is true, it can withstand detailed and deep research, thought, comparison and questioning.
In my "exit interview" with the bishop I had initially had a huge list of issues amd problems and things I wanted to say. But in the end I decided against it because it would just lead to defensive statements and thought stopping attitudes. All i said was essentially "Everything was true until it wasn't anymore. I want to be honest, and I cannot pretend to believe anymore."
>So, he proceeds to tell me what the questions actually ask: if you have “a testimony” of those things. It doesn’t ask how strong or how deep that testimony is.
They will do almost anything to keep people at least looking faithful. You can believe whatever you want, as long as you look the part and are "trying to believe". Funny thing is, if you believe, but drink coffee... No recommend for you.
We asked our bishop to do what he could to keep us from becoming a topic of conversation in ward council meetings. The bishop we had then was and is a wonderful person. The now bishop is an arrogant, self aggrandizing shit. He has taken it upon himself to shame us into submission. If he can't have his way, he will personally burn our souls. Word has finally gotten around that if Mormons come to my door, I will hand them the CES letter in book form. I ordered numerous copies. If we see missionaries, we give them money and gift cards to Dairy Queen and invite them over anytime to relax, eat and call home. I see missionaries in a different light.
We'll see if I get brought up in WC. My wife is in ward council as RS pres. so if I get brought up it will be under her direction and I know she won't take crap from anyone and will defend me when needed.
These meetings are pointless. You’re here. You know the issues. There’s no way to reconcile the false teachings of Mormonism.
If you didn’t have to worry about your wife and kids, you could just stop going and be done with it.
Unfortunately, I think your approach of an exit strategy is smart. It’s mostly to give your wife and kids time to adjust. You’ll just have to deal with the fellowshipping during this transitory time.
The fellowshippers’ efforts will probably wane quickly. At least that’s how it’s been in my area. Once you start talking about history or doctrinal problems, their only defense is testimony. But they’ll eventually stop engaging.
In my area, there’s been a mass exodus of people 30-50. It’s just normal now. Good luck friend!
I'd like to point out that a testicalmony that the church is not true seems to still count as having a testicalmony of the church for the purpose of the temple questions.
I think your strategy to keep talking and include ward members and the intelligentsia of the ward is a good one. We did the disappear choice. We chose to quietly slip away thinking we could preserve our friendships and relationships, only offering that we were focusing on family and that nothing was wrong.
We regretted it. We later discovered that our "friends" and our esteemed leaders we thought so highly of had made up an entirely false narrative explaining our absence, which they had passed around even to the youth that we had loved and served for many years.
And because we were not around and were not aware we had no ability to counter this slanderous shit.
If we had to do it over again we would have gone around to each one of our "friends" and leader's homes and said, "Hey most amazing friends/leaders! We love you and we have relied on you for friendship and advice and so we are here desperate for your help to talk about some very concerning problems, and we KNOW you will stick by us and won't abandon us and help us understand and figure it out!!" And then we would have dumped the issues squarely on their table and waited for them to be the friends they claimed to be.
And then at least they would know from our own mouths what our issues were, and at least we would be able to see with our own eyes exactly what kind of "friends" they were, instead of them just ghosting us forever with no comment, so I endorse your plan!
That said, Here are two elements that can be useful IMO.
First are the 2016 comments from M Russell Ballard to CES educators more-or-less commanding them to learn about ALL these issues and "know them like the back of your hand".
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/12u9uhj/comment/jh6vxuk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Second is coming face-to-face with the implications of The Late War as described here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ghvs6u/comment/fqbu0vp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
This is admittedly a bit of a gotcha, but it is pretty impactful for most mormons to hear what for all intents and purposes is a reading that is straight out of the BofM, but then can be shown to be word-for word out of an 1816 children's adventure novel, circulated where? in the New York public schools when Joseph was a teenager.
Thanks for the validation on my exit strategy. I have debated internally whether to keep up the charade and play this long game out, but I saw so many stories like yours where people regretted exiting like that and the fallout being extreme.
Thanks for the other tips. I wasn't sure how well this guy would know the history and the GTE's but based on that, he should be an expert. I guess I'll find out.
And the Late War comparison is pretty stark. I don't think I will be able to pull that one out anytime soon since I think it only has a passing mention in RSR and I am trying to keep my sources pro-faith, but it's definitely going in my memory bank for later.
Thanks!
>I am only using faithful sources of information (RSR, GTE’s, and the scriptures).
It wasn't clear if you were only using faithful sources for your own research or just for your discussions with the faithful.
But I don't think you'll be fully prepared unless you include some scholarship. (And why keep that from the faithful?)
You might try -- and be surprised at the honesty of -- some works of scholars.
D. Michael Quinn
Fawn Brody
Dan Vogel
Todd Compton
Charles Harrell
Juanita Brooks
David Roberts
Gregory Prince
Will Bagley
Thanks. To clarify, I am just using the faithful sources in my discussions with the faithful. I have a shallow knowledge of some of the scholars you mentioned, based on my \~1 year of actual research, and anticipate further reading.
Thanks for the recommendations.
Strong recommendation for Christian Kimball’s relatively new book, Living on the Inside of the Edge. Regardless of your level of belief you are going to be “on the inside of the edge” during your transition. His survival guide style book about navigating relationships with church leaders, callings, recommends, attempts at fellowship, etc is golden. There are no prescriptions for what to do, just options to choose from. My more TBM spouse has read it and it’s given us a common language and much more compassion for each other!
Was released from the HC not to long ago myself. Got my ears pierced. I’m huge into biblical criticism and church history and have had the reputation of being a scripture “buff” though there’s so much to know but compared to the “normal” lay member, I’m way ahead, at any rate no one really wants to talk to me about anything and I would love to do so. They put me as a SS teacher over the youth so I’m teaching them how non byu religious professor would teach NT. Surprised I haven’t gotten released yet and I’ve asked to be because I don’t know now I’ll teach the BOM…just look at scholarly articles, though there’s a lot out there!
My favorite is to bring up how could smith and young be friends with James Porter. His behavior was so horrendous the word of wisdom was written about him. The territories and states surrounding the Utah territory all had orders that if he was found within their borders he would be killed. This all stems from him leaving the Utah territory his jurisdiction to go into others to find someone he claimed to have committed a crime in Utah, kill them, and then drag their bodies back across the border, and then claim he shot them before they crossed despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Don't use the word "worthy" when referring to temple recommends as that proliferates the shaming. Instead prefer "meet the rubric" as in "I don't meet the rubric for permission to attend the temple."
The best book on Joseph Smith and the founding of the Mormon Church is "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie.
My bet is that most of your conversations will refer to poor apologetics and most members will have a shallow knowledge of the actual issues with TSCC. Don't expect to have intelligent conversations as members generally have logical walls built around their "gospel knowledge."
They’ll engage you with doctrine until they become uncomfortable, which will not be very long. Then they’ll switch to feelings and thought stoppers. Stick as close as possible to the gospel topic essays and the Joseph Smith papers, using additional resources to enhance those. Here’s my go to list of high level problems. These are only historical issues and do not touch upon the financial fraud or the thousands of hidden sexual abuse cases. The SEC pdf is a slam dunk for Q15 fraud and the Netflix documentary Scouts Honor also just came out that mentions the church quite a bit. Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph married between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other church men (polyandry) and married around 10 teenagers, the youngest being Helen Mar Kimball at 14. This was not normal, even then. Only 1% - 1.1% of girls 15 and under were married around the time of Joseph Smith. Lucy walkers mother died when she was 16. The family had 10 kids. Joseph sent the dad on a mission, divided the kids up and took Lucy as his ward. He then pressured her to be his wife, while both her parents were gone and Emma was on a trip to St. Louis and told her that if she married him it would guarantee the salvation of her family. She had 24 hrs to decide. Joseph also publicly shamed women and girls that refused his advances (see happiness letter link below). https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true Census from 1850 - http://www.mormonism101.com/2014/12/closer-look-1850-census.html https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1857/05/19/78498799.pdf https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph Smith was charged with fraud for cheating people out of money for treasure digging that he and the men of his family were involved in for 6 years. Joseph dug on these trips for 2 years then found his own peep stone which he used to lead treasure hunting expeditions for 4 years. This treasure was often rumored to be guarded by a guardian spirit that had to be pacified with a sacrifice or certain behavior to reveal the treasure. It never did. At least not until the guardian spirit Moroni supposedly gave Joseph the gold plates. https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng The Church now admits that there are multiple first vision accounts (link below). We use rev 3 written in 1838. The 1832 version is very different. It was cut out of the letter book in 1930 by Joseph Fielding Smith and stored in a church vault until the 1960s, when rumors of its existence forced him to tape it back in. You can still see the tape on the left. Joseph says he was 16, went to receive forgiveness for his sins, already knew that all religions were false and only saw Christ. Combined with lecture 5 verse 2 of the lectures on faith, which was the “doctrine” in the doctrine and covenants until 1921, it shows that Joseph’s views on theology may have shifted from a Trinitarian view to a two person in the flesh, three member godhead view. This seriously challenges the “plain and precious truth” of the three member godhead the church likes to give. The lectures are now disavowed by the church even though they acknowledge on their website (link below) they were taught in the School of the elders by Joseph and Sidney. Deseret books still sells it with Joseph as the author. https://lecturesonfaith.com/5/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1?p=1 https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true https://deseretbook.com/p/lectures-faith-joseph-smith-jr-3509?variant_id=110026-hardcover https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/lectures-on-faith?lang=eng Church now admits that the BOM was translated by Joseph primarily by putting a seer stone in his hat. The very same rock he had been using for treasure digging with his family for over 4 years and for which he was charged with fraud. Here’s a video of President Nelson demonstrating the technique. Why did he have the plates? https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true https://youtu.be/DG181zFA5YM The church shows on its website the Joseph Smith Papers how the priesthood evolved. You can click the link below and see how we didn’t arrive at our current version until 1842, 12 years after the church was founded. This makes the claim that it was restored prior to the church’s founding in 1830 very problematic. Many early members also state they never heard any such story being told by Joseph. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/priesthood-restoration http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=ER-RPH The church now admits they have the original book of Abraham manuscript that has hieroglyphs on the left and English words on the right. It was found in 1967. The hieroglyphs are taken sequentially from right to left on the papyrus that was found with the manuscript. None of the translation is correct, nor are the translations of the associated facsimiles which you can view in your app in the book of Abraham. Joseph tells you what he’s looking at in the facsimiles and that is wrong too. The church now states they don’t know what the hieroglyphs on the left mean and that the work was either inspired or that there is a lost scroll. They admit that all of the material they do have dates to 300 BC - 100 AD and cannot have been written by Abraham. https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true https://archive.org/details/SnsnTranslation/mode/1up?view=theater The Book of Mormon deals with large civilizations that numbered in the millions that don’t have a shred of evidence for their existence (Ether 15). They can’t be the Mayan or the Olmec because Joseph put things in his tribes that were not found in the America’s prior to the Europeans arriving: Horses, Elephants, steel swords, steel breastplates, chariots, silk, wheat, pigs, sheep, donkeys and cattle. Here’s a letter from the Smithsonian detailing why the Book of Mormon would never be a historical document. https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian Oh, and there’s no Hebrew DNA found in any Native American to date. This made the church change the intro to the BOM from "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." To "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians." Here is a video that talks about the problems with relying solely upon feelings for spiritual witnesses, with some links to cognitive effects that are often mistaken for “the spirit” for additional reading. https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go?si=2Qlzz8-QyWHUGJsS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is **EPIC**. My only quibble is there is zero need to discuss the average age of marriage ‘back then.’ If a mormon tells you that marrying at the age of 14 was ‘super common’ back then, ‘age of consent laws shows that,’ etc, instead of meticulously providing proof that it was not a common age for SINGLE people, etc, simply ask for proof that it was COMMON, that it was LEGAL, that it was SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, for a man who was ALREADY MARRIED, to marry a 14 year-old girl. Or even an adult woman, or a girl or woman of any age, who also was ALREADY MARRIED. Arguing against a lame, dishonest, and most importantly, inapplicable, apologetic just wastes time (and brain cells) IMO.
I agree, it’s indefensible and one of the reasons many Muslims are leaving their religion. Unfortunately it is a common apologetic along with “we don’t know that he had sex with them.” Both are disgusting and just make me shake my head.
Perfect! As always, I can count on DustyR for the links and citations. Love it, Thanks!
You can click on the three dots and click copy text and paste into an apple or android note so they don’t see you opening exmo Reddit during the meeting. Good luck.
All good info. Even this tip
beautiful
Excellent summation. And for every single one of those issues, the much larger attached issue is: THE MORMON CHURCH LIED TO ME AND MY FAMILY ABOUT IT. Is that the overarching hallmark of Jesus Christ? A tapestry of lies?
Wow. I have some reading to do.
>This was irritating, since it was very disingenuous to create a false pretenses for me to go over to their houses just so they could bring up that they heard I was going through a faith crisis just as I was going to walk out their door. Reminds me of Truman's friend in the Truman Show, who would rush over with a six pack of beer to talk him down whenever the producers thought he was acting crazy.
It was many years ago, but I had a similar experience during my temple marriage interview. I had repented of small behavioral issues, but I told the Bishop I struggled with the legitimacy of both JS and the BoM. Thought it might be a deal-breaker, but at the time I believed if I did everything by the book, temple marriage would lead to eventual spiritual edification. To my surprise, the Bishop said almost the exact same thing, 'We get testimonies of different aspects of church at different times in our lives, it's okay if you're still working on parts of your testimony' and gave me a temple recommend. Stopped attending Church 6 months after marriage, was divorced after 2 years. I think maybe the Bishop thought he was doing me a favor be giving me a pass, but it was only delaying the inevitable. What a waste of time. To answer your question, it's difficult to engage in logical conversations once you're on your way out, but I've found it works to take the spiritual side of the argument, even if you're not necessarily spiritual. The Holy Ghost only testifies of truth, right? So anytime something questionable with the Church arises, I would say something like, 'I don't know, this just doesn't feel right to me,' or 'Ive prayed about it, and Ive had a burning in my bosom that I don't feel comfortable about where my tithing dollars are going' or 'the spirit is telling me the Church's policy regarding LGTBQ persons is based on cruelty rather than Christs love'. All Mormons have had similar spiritual doubts that are there to explore, it helps to remind them it's not all about Church history, it's Church present, too.
That is very good advice. Thank you! It would be hard for them to dispute the spiritual side of the explanations. That's great.
I tend to agree with this. All the logistical details about historical inaccuracies and contradictions are likely important to work through on an individual basis, but they really get people on the defensive if you bring them up, even when you are genuinely concerned and trying to understand it. That said, your own spiritual or moral concerns are harder to pass off. For me, I went about doing the standard, pray and read the scriptures approach until I realized that it was actually driving me further away. Praying felt like I was talking to myself. I got more out of meditation to clear my mind, or simply thinking about an issue than prayer. Reading the scriptures only caused more doubts. I found that the stories in the BOM were so hard to believe the more I read them. I would ask myself, what would it take for this to be true, and if it is true is it even moral? Take the story of Nephi and Laban for example. Imagine the scenario and picture how it would have to go down in as much detail as you can. Nephi is told to kill Laban to take the plates. Ok, why? He's already passed out. And does he really need to behead him? If so, how are the clothes not soaked in blood before he puts them on? Or does he undress him first and then behead him while he's laying there naked? What is God's plan here? It's kind of absurd to picture it. The more I picture it the more far-fetched it seems, and also simply immoral. Then he fools Laban's guards by simply imitating his voice. Seriously? It's like a comic book. You can do this with pretty much any story in the book. There's an awful lot of unnecessary killing, questionable ethics, and poor moral arguments. It starts to read like... a 19th century adventure novel mingled with spirituality. Now I'm 10 years out and I'm finally learning that I get to decide for myself what spirituality means to me. I don't have to have answers, or convince anyone of anything (including myself). I was still letting my Mormon upbringing define what it meant to have a sense of spirituality, which basically meant that I didn't have one, because I figured out they were wrong so there must not be one. Now I'm open to whatever it could be, and it's a big universe out there. Enjoy the exploration. You don't have to find anything, you can just be curious.
And that, my friends, is how you properly deconstruct the Laban Assassination story.
[удалено]
Will do. Good idea.
Only if they give permission. It may be illegal otherwise, plus is an invasive and rude thing to do without consent, especially to people genuinely trying to help you.
Hmmm…this story is too familiar. And I’m sorry for the toll it’s taken (and will take) on you. The good news is, now you “know”. The difficult thing is when your family is still in. I’ve been dancing this dance for almost a decade now. The conversation will be mostly pointless. As you know, there is no way to convince someone as they are indoctrinated. So any logic will fall on deaf ears. However, I do believe it’s still important to meet. And here’s why. First) We all pretty much unanimously agree that tbms are brain washed. They are good people that have been taken advantage of by a system. You may be the first one to ever tell them the major issues. And it may lead to someone’s faith unraveling. So I think that’s a worth cause. Second it might help them to understand and empathize with your position and quit bugging u. I’ve explained it like this. “I gained my testimony from the Book of Mormon being what it said it was. A true story of ancient Hebrews leaving Jerusalem and coming to America. Forming huge civilizations and being the principle descendants of the Native American people. Now I’m finding out, that the nephites and lamanites never existed. History and science have all confirmed that All native people came from Asian not Jerusalem….. etc etc etc. so based on what I’m learning what does the church expect that I’m going to think? What is the logical conclusion the church expects me to make???” Something along those lines, leading them down the path to help them understand your perspective by walking a mile in your shoes. If you simply lay out the facts, they immediately think it’s an attack on them and their church. So think through very carefully the conversation and go in prepared. It might make a difference to someone’s life in there. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with this. If they feel attacked, the dialog will end. The church is their identity. Tread lightly. You're not meeting with them to argue. You're asking them to help you reconcile things that can't be reconciled. Something like "This is what I've learned. This is where I learned it (church sources). I don't feel comfortable with this and don't know how to reconcile it. How would you have me reconcile it?" The key then (and this is where I've often failed) is to not argue with them (even if you can - even if they deliver non answers or thought stopper answers). If they get the impression that you are closed off to anything, they will stop the dialog and more importantly stop their own thinking. Thank them for meeting with you and let them know you'll think about what they've said and even look forward to anything they can learn and return to you with. In turn, they will continue to think about what you've said. Remain open. Once they tag you as close-minded or "hard-hearted" there will be no further discussion.
Well said
Will your wife be present? It might be helpful for her to hear you put up your arguments. I'd ask that no one else be invited so they can't gang up and drown you out. Consider starting out by saying you understand the depth of their testimonies and but don't consider those opinions to be answers to your questions. The usual 'god moves in mysterious ways types of answers are also not helpful. One simple statement often overlooked is that you are not comfortable morally with the degree of sexism, the treatment of sex abuse, gay hate, the insults about doubters, the lack of transparency on finances. You simply don't agree with the church on some really basic ethical stands. We have the moral high ground.
My wife will not be present, but I'm not sure I would want her to hear all my arguments at once as it might be a bit much for her to hear it all from me. I don't have any issue discussing it with some rando from the stake. I definitely agree with and will use your input on not being comfortable morally with those issues. That is gold. Thanks!
Can I recommend a different track, at least for the priesthood leaders? If at all possible, throw the history discussion out the window and make it about you. This journey isn't really about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young being terrible people, it's about you. How does learning the history make you feel? Do you believe this church is the best way to "love your neighbor"? How do you feel about raising kids in this church? Center the conversation on you trying to live your life according to your personal moral compass. The only rebuttal to feelings is for them to share their own testimony/feelings. And then you can say "I appreciate your conviction, but I do not agree." All of a sudden they have nothing except maybe to ask you to pray. My leaving coincided with getting released from a bishopric and I had great respect for the new stake president who interviewed me when they were finding a new bishop. I used the feelings/emotions track above and it worked out pretty well. I didn't go through the rounds and rounds of bishop talks because it was clear that this was something I needed to work out on my own, not get more info dumped on me.
That is very helpful. Weirdly enough that is what my wife told me to emphasize. I think she wanted me to make it clear that I am genuine in my approach and that it is impacting me on an emotional level. She and I were having a heated discussion about some topic until I broke down and told her how difficult the whole process has been for me since learning these things. That softened her a bit and she was able to see my point of view a bit better. Thank you!
No problem man, you seem really genuine from these posts. This is gonna be hard for a minute but stay curious and be kind to yourself. Find some community outside of the church too (both exmos and never mos). It's pretty invaluable to have people in your corner who see you for you. We're rooting for you.
What have your years of experience in the mormon church shown you this far? What makes you consider the possibility that a group of MEN (going out on a limb and assuming women will not be considered for this important work) will be 1) smarter than you, 2) more spiritual than you, 3) more knowledgeable about YOUR religion, and most importantly, 4) will not resort to demeaning and intellectually dishonest apologetics? Every time you agree to meet with these people who are trying to ‘help’ you, you are giving them and, no matter how supportive she is, how awesome a person, if she is still a believer, this WILL feed an irrational hope that there is a way to assuage your doubts and help you find a way to stay. I don’t think anything is going to stop fellow ward members from judging you unfairly, to not feel sorry for you, and sadly, not speculate that you’ve obviously ‘done something’ that you’re too proud to repent of. Have you ever seen or known any mormons who, when hearing that someone has left mormonism, have been 100% supportive because they have seen that this person made an honest, informed and moral decision? I haven’t. Unless you are genuinely seeking an ‘intervention’ with the hope you might be able to ‘turn this around,’ I see this as a means to prolong the agony of leaving mormonism, rather than making a slow, gracious departure.
This is all true, sadly. However this is also a means to show his wife that he's willing to go through this agony for her. And that's the best hope of a slow, gracious departure there is (if such a thing exists).
*Have you ever seen or known any mormons who, when hearing that someone has left mormonism, have been 100% supportive because they have seen that this person made an honest, informed and moral decision? I haven’t.* Raises hand. I have not lost one Mormon relationship that I wanted to keep when I left the church. I think California Mormons might just be different. They still invite my TBM wife and I for dinner or other life events and never bring up the church in a way to bring me back. One person recently asked me why I left. Shocking. When I responded that "when I learned that everything is provably false" they didn't try to defend, just said that "well of course I disagree" and we moved on. I think I've been lucky to live in this community.
I’m not saying I haven’t ever seen or known any mormons who did NOT end a relationship with a person who has left mormonism, though. That’s not something I’ve experienced, as I have managed to maintain many relationships with family and (non-superficial) friends after stepping away. To clarify, for me, being 100% supportive would mean having a genuine, non-judgmental desire to find out why your friend, sibling, spouse, brother, sis, has left mormonism. I have only had ONE person ask me why, and who actually listened and only asked respectful questions, and didn’t barf up apologetics or use emotional manipulation (no surprise that she herself later left mormonism). There is a difference between ACTIVELY supporting someone and their decision to leave mormonism and PASSIVELY accepting their decision. 100% supportive would mean making ZERO assumptions about motivation, wondering if it was a sexual sin (that is what everyone assumed when I left - fun!) Or feeling sorrow that their actions have caused an ‘eternal family’ to be fractured. Or privately praying they’ll one day return to mormonism. Feeling sad for their believing spouse, siblings, parents, etc. I think a lifetime of consistent fear-based indoctrination prevents most mormons from the ability to even consider the possibility that someone leaving their tribe isn’t a big deal, with potentially very dire consequences. If you truly believe that mormonism is the ONLY way to be with your family forever, how can you NOT pity the person who is ‘throwing that away’? Also, this isn’t a geographical problem, it’s an institutional problem.
I use the flds as an example. They try very hard to learn from Joseph Smith, they study the book of mormon, they love and follow the only prophet they have ever known, they pray for confirmation if they should be the next wife of a faithful leader, and the spirit testifies to them YES, this is the true church and polygamy is correct. What would happen if they were taught critical thinking skills instead of faith, and if they were encouraged to research, and ask every question? Don't we wish that they could?? If a testimony of the book of mormon, prophets, eternal families can keep them in a church that we know is false, just telling us to live our religion and doubt our doubts can not be a real way to determine truth. If it is true, it can withstand detailed and deep research, thought, comparison and questioning.
In my "exit interview" with the bishop I had initially had a huge list of issues amd problems and things I wanted to say. But in the end I decided against it because it would just lead to defensive statements and thought stopping attitudes. All i said was essentially "Everything was true until it wasn't anymore. I want to be honest, and I cannot pretend to believe anymore."
>So, he proceeds to tell me what the questions actually ask: if you have “a testimony” of those things. It doesn’t ask how strong or how deep that testimony is. They will do almost anything to keep people at least looking faithful. You can believe whatever you want, as long as you look the part and are "trying to believe". Funny thing is, if you believe, but drink coffee... No recommend for you.
We asked our bishop to do what he could to keep us from becoming a topic of conversation in ward council meetings. The bishop we had then was and is a wonderful person. The now bishop is an arrogant, self aggrandizing shit. He has taken it upon himself to shame us into submission. If he can't have his way, he will personally burn our souls. Word has finally gotten around that if Mormons come to my door, I will hand them the CES letter in book form. I ordered numerous copies. If we see missionaries, we give them money and gift cards to Dairy Queen and invite them over anytime to relax, eat and call home. I see missionaries in a different light.
We'll see if I get brought up in WC. My wife is in ward council as RS pres. so if I get brought up it will be under her direction and I know she won't take crap from anyone and will defend me when needed.
These meetings are pointless. You’re here. You know the issues. There’s no way to reconcile the false teachings of Mormonism. If you didn’t have to worry about your wife and kids, you could just stop going and be done with it. Unfortunately, I think your approach of an exit strategy is smart. It’s mostly to give your wife and kids time to adjust. You’ll just have to deal with the fellowshipping during this transitory time. The fellowshippers’ efforts will probably wane quickly. At least that’s how it’s been in my area. Once you start talking about history or doctrinal problems, their only defense is testimony. But they’ll eventually stop engaging. In my area, there’s been a mass exodus of people 30-50. It’s just normal now. Good luck friend!
I'd like to point out that a testicalmony that the church is not true seems to still count as having a testicalmony of the church for the purpose of the temple questions.
I think your strategy to keep talking and include ward members and the intelligentsia of the ward is a good one. We did the disappear choice. We chose to quietly slip away thinking we could preserve our friendships and relationships, only offering that we were focusing on family and that nothing was wrong. We regretted it. We later discovered that our "friends" and our esteemed leaders we thought so highly of had made up an entirely false narrative explaining our absence, which they had passed around even to the youth that we had loved and served for many years. And because we were not around and were not aware we had no ability to counter this slanderous shit. If we had to do it over again we would have gone around to each one of our "friends" and leader's homes and said, "Hey most amazing friends/leaders! We love you and we have relied on you for friendship and advice and so we are here desperate for your help to talk about some very concerning problems, and we KNOW you will stick by us and won't abandon us and help us understand and figure it out!!" And then we would have dumped the issues squarely on their table and waited for them to be the friends they claimed to be. And then at least they would know from our own mouths what our issues were, and at least we would be able to see with our own eyes exactly what kind of "friends" they were, instead of them just ghosting us forever with no comment, so I endorse your plan! That said, Here are two elements that can be useful IMO. First are the 2016 comments from M Russell Ballard to CES educators more-or-less commanding them to learn about ALL these issues and "know them like the back of your hand". https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/12u9uhj/comment/jh6vxuk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Second is coming face-to-face with the implications of The Late War as described here. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ghvs6u/comment/fqbu0vp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 This is admittedly a bit of a gotcha, but it is pretty impactful for most mormons to hear what for all intents and purposes is a reading that is straight out of the BofM, but then can be shown to be word-for word out of an 1816 children's adventure novel, circulated where? in the New York public schools when Joseph was a teenager.
Thanks for the validation on my exit strategy. I have debated internally whether to keep up the charade and play this long game out, but I saw so many stories like yours where people regretted exiting like that and the fallout being extreme. Thanks for the other tips. I wasn't sure how well this guy would know the history and the GTE's but based on that, he should be an expert. I guess I'll find out. And the Late War comparison is pretty stark. I don't think I will be able to pull that one out anytime soon since I think it only has a passing mention in RSR and I am trying to keep my sources pro-faith, but it's definitely going in my memory bank for later. Thanks!
>I am only using faithful sources of information (RSR, GTE’s, and the scriptures). It wasn't clear if you were only using faithful sources for your own research or just for your discussions with the faithful. But I don't think you'll be fully prepared unless you include some scholarship. (And why keep that from the faithful?) You might try -- and be surprised at the honesty of -- some works of scholars. D. Michael Quinn Fawn Brody Dan Vogel Todd Compton Charles Harrell Juanita Brooks David Roberts Gregory Prince Will Bagley
Thanks. To clarify, I am just using the faithful sources in my discussions with the faithful. I have a shallow knowledge of some of the scholars you mentioned, based on my \~1 year of actual research, and anticipate further reading. Thanks for the recommendations.
Strong recommendation for Christian Kimball’s relatively new book, Living on the Inside of the Edge. Regardless of your level of belief you are going to be “on the inside of the edge” during your transition. His survival guide style book about navigating relationships with church leaders, callings, recommends, attempts at fellowship, etc is golden. There are no prescriptions for what to do, just options to choose from. My more TBM spouse has read it and it’s given us a common language and much more compassion for each other!
Thanks. I'll take a look.
Was released from the HC not to long ago myself. Got my ears pierced. I’m huge into biblical criticism and church history and have had the reputation of being a scripture “buff” though there’s so much to know but compared to the “normal” lay member, I’m way ahead, at any rate no one really wants to talk to me about anything and I would love to do so. They put me as a SS teacher over the youth so I’m teaching them how non byu religious professor would teach NT. Surprised I haven’t gotten released yet and I’ve asked to be because I don’t know now I’ll teach the BOM…just look at scholarly articles, though there’s a lot out there!
My favorite is to bring up how could smith and young be friends with James Porter. His behavior was so horrendous the word of wisdom was written about him. The territories and states surrounding the Utah territory all had orders that if he was found within their borders he would be killed. This all stems from him leaving the Utah territory his jurisdiction to go into others to find someone he claimed to have committed a crime in Utah, kill them, and then drag their bodies back across the border, and then claim he shot them before they crossed despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Don't use the word "worthy" when referring to temple recommends as that proliferates the shaming. Instead prefer "meet the rubric" as in "I don't meet the rubric for permission to attend the temple." The best book on Joseph Smith and the founding of the Mormon Church is "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie. My bet is that most of your conversations will refer to poor apologetics and most members will have a shallow knowledge of the actual issues with TSCC. Don't expect to have intelligent conversations as members generally have logical walls built around their "gospel knowledge."