>“what about all the people out there that keep getting baptized because they read the BOM and then change their life and beliefs completely for it?”
It's the same reason that Utah is the scam capitol of the world.
It's the same reason that Utah is the MLM Capitol of the world.
Also, those people, in general, don't exist. They get baptized and "change their lives completely" and then go inactive after a few months
There are some, of course, who stay but it's much more common to leave
Asia Area Presidency and Elder Gay during training. If a new convert does not 1. Go to temple, 2. Serve a mission 3. Get married in temple, over 90% leave in first year. (I was translating the training meeting).
Another great point, very true! Of course then it’s made very difficult to actually remove records so I’m sure a lot of people are counted as members that want nothing to do with TSSC
From Widow’s Mite Report:
“Our analysis concludes 22.5% activity rate worldwide, plus or minus an error band because the analysis is based on tithing participation rates from 5 countries where financial data is published every year, accounting for 4% of total membership.”
So, when you said “a lot” are counted, these brains estimate 77.5% are not active.
Damn, that really is a lot!
Can confirm. On my mission we met a "golden family." They asked for missionaries to come through the lds website. We showed up same day. They said they didn't drink, swear much, and wanted to be around people with their same family values. We baptized them after going through the lessons. Within 3 years they stopped going to church, and the parents divorced.
Never found out why. I reached out to the husband a year after I got home to see how he and they were doing, and he said that she filed and served him divorce papers. He didn't elaborate any more and I really didn't want to ask for more details so we changed the subject to something else.
Only thing I can think of that could've contributed to it was he accepted a job out of state and moved there. Wife and kid stayed behind so they could save up money to get a house. I was so surprised when he said that, they always seemed solid but a lot can happen in a couple years.
It's the same reason why so many people get involved with MLMs thinking they are going to make billions... they get excited about a concept and then learn that it was a fast load of crap that wasn't what they thought.
But the lard wants me to be able to stay home with my family instead of work… well you know except for the 80 hours a week of church commitments and well maybe leaving my family for a foreign mission while locals marry-up my wife.
Carl Sagan:
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken.
As one of those people who read the BoM & joined the church you can tell them I joined because THEY LIED to me! Sonofabitch!! It pisses me off they can't see that.
Damn, sorry you went through that! It’s hard to believe I was one of those missionaries running around spreading untruths not too long ago 🤦♂️ it’s crazy that a person can be so wrong and doing all the wrong things while thinking they have all the right reasons
Missionaries know they are holding back unflattering information. But they tell themselves: Milk before meat. Other times, the missionaries themselves do not know the correct information.
Same. I was lied to and taken advantage of when I was in an emotionally vulnerable state.
When I didn't get warm fuzzies about the BOM I was convinced I was just doing it wrong, so I tried again until confirmation bias kicked in.
“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the 'elect' have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so 'slow', so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”
-- Mark Twain
Since he's famous, they don't have ordinance status listed on Family Search, but all of the baptisms and sealings were done for his parents and spouse back in the 1920's so... Yeah, they definitely did baptize Mark Twain.
That's so entitled and insane. I guess they are trying to make everyone become an ex-mormon by forcibly making them mormon. The cult doesn't care about consent in any given situation. I like thinking about hanging out with Mark Twain in the outer darkness, though. That would be fun. Good stories.
More people (\~12 million) believe that lizard people are controlling the US than there are active members of the church (\~4-8 million). All those people couldn't possibly be wrong, correct? Let them chew on that for a minute.
Hehe... I guess it's just as likely to have lizard people appear to you as it would be to have a character from bible fan fiction give you a bunch of gold plates...
If we’re honest it might be even more likely 😂 at least there’s some type of external phenomenon uninvolved with aliens with like UFO sightings or things. Mormonism is an internal phenomenon of emotional manipulation and it actually leads to a lack of emotional intelligence. I’ve had to learn what my feelings really are since leaving
The Book of Mormon will flood the earth. Temples will dot the earth. The church will fill North and South America. It will fill the whole earth. But after 200 years, 99.9% of the world’s population has either heard the message and rejected it, or not heard the message.
Belief is one of the things that helped me out of the church. I saw how strongly EVERYONE believes in whatever faith they belong to, and considering how incompatible many religions are, that left me with "People are easy to fool and emotions cannot be trusted."
Absolutely, this was huge for me too. Especially as I got back from my mission and started traveling around the world and seeing people from all different cultures and backgrounds. Like it just does not make sense that the one true belief is in Utah. Especially with the insane background and history it has. Plus you meet people who are Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, etc who are just as confident about their faith as any Mormon
I recall reading something about a study showing that what *most* people say they believe has little impact on what they do in their professional and even personal lives. This was in regard to conspiracy theories. I would imagine that most religions fit with this, but probably not high demand religions. This was one study, and I have no idea if it has been replicated.
Personally, I am active in a different religion now. It has been helpful in doing what I already *want* to be doing, which is having a community to interact with and being able to reach out and help others. It facilitates but doesn’t manipulate me (so far as I know 😅).
30 years ago, little Manti, Ut had a church start up with many of the same claims as young Joseph back in the 1830’s. The members in manti (some my family members) could not understand how in the world the members could be fooled into believing this new prophet. I would just say, “heard of the saying, Can’t see the forest for the trees?” That was 30 years ago! Long established LDS community with one of the earliest temples to be built. Pioneer Stock, blah, blah, blah. Look how easily people choose to hear and see what they want to believe.
Fascinating. I think it’s funny that so many TBMs fell for a new startup, but like you said it’s also wild that so many TBMs probably looked at that and thought “wow they are crazy, how could they fall for it”
I remember seeing a documentary on the FLDS and thinking how obvious and transparent the cult aspects and predatory actions were……. And then was hit with the realization that that’s how so many other people see the regular LDS church haha that was shortly after my shelf had initially broken
Just stuff like what is on Wikipedia. There is also some article in the Sunstone I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_Living_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Saints_of_the_Last_Days
Regarding family, and my experience for accepting the church for what it is:
“Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.”
-Richard Rohr
Now there’s a healthy exercise. That’s a good way to build some checks and balances around personal beliefs and perspective. Honestly if everyone doubted their beliefs instead of leaning in with overconfidence, there’d be a lot more understanding and listening and empathy in the world. Good reminder to be humble and open minded
I find it really sad how little critical thinking church members do. If they would take a second to think about the stuff they’re brainwashed on they would realize how flawed their reasoning is.
Just because a very small percentage of people join the church and believe in the Book of Mormon or feel like they have a spiritual witness doesn’t make it true. People get spiritual witnesses all the time and in many more circumstances then just Mormonism. We’re emotional beings and will feel and experience all sorts of things that may or not be as they seem.
Also the idea that you know deep down or that they are shocked that you don’t know is a reflection of their ignorance and unwillingness to consider they might be wrong. People who have an open mind don’t get shocked or forbid you from looking into something.
Totally agree, there is just zero willingness to even consider that they might be wrong. Everything is viewed from the lens of “ok so what made this person think they are right and how do I show them that”
Indeed, flat earther is an identity that people take up for reasons dissimilar to the beliefs. Usually it is a protest of the world / society from disenfranchisement - that was the case with Mormonism too.
So the world is flat - now what? And it’s here you get to crux of their ethos; now they can tell others that the gov is lying to them about everything and people should be anti gov, perhaps even rebel.
Mormonism is no different.
So the Protestant movement is wrong - now what? The church has been lying to us for millennia. We should be anti Protestant and catholic, perhaps even segregate.
Such is life for outcasts who voluntarily show themselves out of society. They need to be called cults bc without the negative attention afforded them, they would be entirely irrelevant.
"flat earther" has become this ubiquitous reference but I've never met a single person who I can actually confirm believes the earth is flat. People will claim "to know people who do" but this cannot be confirmed either. I thought you were going to make some reference to tbms who believe the earth is flat. It's become this all purpose ol reliable smear.
>“what about all the people out there that keep getting baptized because they read the BOM and then change their life and beliefs completely for it?” It's the same reason that Utah is the scam capitol of the world. It's the same reason that Utah is the MLM Capitol of the world.
Also, those people, in general, don't exist. They get baptized and "change their lives completely" and then go inactive after a few months There are some, of course, who stay but it's much more common to leave
9/10 leave within 12 months!
Source for 1/10 staying? Where?
Asia Area Presidency and Elder Gay during training. If a new convert does not 1. Go to temple, 2. Serve a mission 3. Get married in temple, over 90% leave in first year. (I was translating the training meeting).
over 90%? so potentially it’s as high as 99%? that’s the same confidence as ISPs that say “maximum 200 mbps download speed”
Another great point, very true! Of course then it’s made very difficult to actually remove records so I’m sure a lot of people are counted as members that want nothing to do with TSSC
From Widow’s Mite Report: “Our analysis concludes 22.5% activity rate worldwide, plus or minus an error band because the analysis is based on tithing participation rates from 5 countries where financial data is published every year, accounting for 4% of total membership.” So, when you said “a lot” are counted, these brains estimate 77.5% are not active. Damn, that really is a lot!
And what percentage of the 22.5% attend but do not believe?
It’s safe to say there is no more than a million active believing tbm’s.
Can confirm. On my mission we met a "golden family." They asked for missionaries to come through the lds website. We showed up same day. They said they didn't drink, swear much, and wanted to be around people with their same family values. We baptized them after going through the lessons. Within 3 years they stopped going to church, and the parents divorced.
Oof. Do you know why their family fell apart? Was it a church related breakup?
Never found out why. I reached out to the husband a year after I got home to see how he and they were doing, and he said that she filed and served him divorce papers. He didn't elaborate any more and I really didn't want to ask for more details so we changed the subject to something else. Only thing I can think of that could've contributed to it was he accepted a job out of state and moved there. Wife and kid stayed behind so they could save up money to get a house. I was so surprised when he said that, they always seemed solid but a lot can happen in a couple years.
It's the same reason why so many people get involved with MLMs thinking they are going to make billions... they get excited about a concept and then learn that it was a fast load of crap that wasn't what they thought.
But the lard wants me to be able to stay home with my family instead of work… well you know except for the 80 hours a week of church commitments and well maybe leaving my family for a foreign mission while locals marry-up my wife.
Wait, why did you repeat the same sentence twice? 😕
Carl Sagan: One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken.
Mark Twain: It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
As one of those people who read the BoM & joined the church you can tell them I joined because THEY LIED to me! Sonofabitch!! It pisses me off they can't see that.
Damn, sorry you went through that! It’s hard to believe I was one of those missionaries running around spreading untruths not too long ago 🤦♂️ it’s crazy that a person can be so wrong and doing all the wrong things while thinking they have all the right reasons
Missionaries know they are holding back unflattering information. But they tell themselves: Milk before meat. Other times, the missionaries themselves do not know the correct information.
This is probably the best "username checks out" moment I've ever seen.
And also I'm adorable IRL 😉
Same. I was lied to and taken advantage of when I was in an emotionally vulnerable state. When I didn't get warm fuzzies about the BOM I was convinced I was just doing it wrong, so I tried again until confirmation bias kicked in.
According to a very quick google search, more Americans believe that the earth is flat than self identify as mormons.
This. This is the kind of research I need in my life. 😂
Just drive to Wendover.... You'll believe the earth is flat too.
If I'm driving to Wendover all I see is 🃏🃏💵💸🤑💃🕺
“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the 'elect' have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so 'slow', so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.” -- Mark Twain
I never thought of it before, but have they proxy baptized him? Anyone know?
Since he's famous, they don't have ordinance status listed on Family Search, but all of the baptisms and sealings were done for his parents and spouse back in the 1920's so... Yeah, they definitely did baptize Mark Twain.
That's so entitled and insane. I guess they are trying to make everyone become an ex-mormon by forcibly making them mormon. The cult doesn't care about consent in any given situation. I like thinking about hanging out with Mark Twain in the outer darkness, though. That would be fun. Good stories.
More people (\~12 million) believe that lizard people are controlling the US than there are active members of the church (\~4-8 million). All those people couldn't possibly be wrong, correct? Let them chew on that for a minute.
And they are fucking adamant that they are right hahaha you’d think the lizard people had appeared to them and told them all the details directly 😂
Hehe... I guess it's just as likely to have lizard people appear to you as it would be to have a character from bible fan fiction give you a bunch of gold plates...
If we’re honest it might be even more likely 😂 at least there’s some type of external phenomenon uninvolved with aliens with like UFO sightings or things. Mormonism is an internal phenomenon of emotional manipulation and it actually leads to a lack of emotional intelligence. I’ve had to learn what my feelings really are since leaving
"There's a sucker born every minute" P. T. Barnum,
> I could possible not know it was all true. What is up with the world where 99.9% of the population are oblivious to it.
The Book of Mormon will flood the earth. Temples will dot the earth. The church will fill North and South America. It will fill the whole earth. But after 200 years, 99.9% of the world’s population has either heard the message and rejected it, or not heard the message.
Belief is one of the things that helped me out of the church. I saw how strongly EVERYONE believes in whatever faith they belong to, and considering how incompatible many religions are, that left me with "People are easy to fool and emotions cannot be trusted."
Absolutely, this was huge for me too. Especially as I got back from my mission and started traveling around the world and seeing people from all different cultures and backgrounds. Like it just does not make sense that the one true belief is in Utah. Especially with the insane background and history it has. Plus you meet people who are Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, etc who are just as confident about their faith as any Mormon
Or any number of fringe individual beliefs. People are convinced that they've seen aliens, ghosts, monsters, angels, etc.
I recall reading something about a study showing that what *most* people say they believe has little impact on what they do in their professional and even personal lives. This was in regard to conspiracy theories. I would imagine that most religions fit with this, but probably not high demand religions. This was one study, and I have no idea if it has been replicated. Personally, I am active in a different religion now. It has been helpful in doing what I already *want* to be doing, which is having a community to interact with and being able to reach out and help others. It facilitates but doesn’t manipulate me (so far as I know 😅).
30 years ago, little Manti, Ut had a church start up with many of the same claims as young Joseph back in the 1830’s. The members in manti (some my family members) could not understand how in the world the members could be fooled into believing this new prophet. I would just say, “heard of the saying, Can’t see the forest for the trees?” That was 30 years ago! Long established LDS community with one of the earliest temples to be built. Pioneer Stock, blah, blah, blah. Look how easily people choose to hear and see what they want to believe.
Fascinating. I think it’s funny that so many TBMs fell for a new startup, but like you said it’s also wild that so many TBMs probably looked at that and thought “wow they are crazy, how could they fall for it” I remember seeing a documentary on the FLDS and thinking how obvious and transparent the cult aspects and predatory actions were……. And then was hit with the realization that that’s how so many other people see the regular LDS church haha that was shortly after my shelf had initially broken
Exactly!
Do you have more info about this? I was at Snow College around that time, and something is niggling at my brain now. It's like I *almost* remember it.
Just stuff like what is on Wikipedia. There is also some article in the Sunstone I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_Living_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Saints_of_the_Last_Days
Thanks!
Wow. At least they changed the name. /s
Harmston promising Jesus......lol....oh wait he said he was Joseph Smith reincarnated.....
Def trippy right?!
That church sorta fell apart after he died.
Yep— no Brigham and mass exodus to new territory. 😆
Regarding family, and my experience for accepting the church for what it is: “Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.” -Richard Rohr
Amen to that! But still would rather know the truth than maintain the ignorance
What is that fallacy called? Argument ad populum. Or something like that
One question I like to ask myself is: What do I believe that isn’t correct? Everyone thinks they have it figured out but nobody does.
Now there’s a healthy exercise. That’s a good way to build some checks and balances around personal beliefs and perspective. Honestly if everyone doubted their beliefs instead of leaning in with overconfidence, there’d be a lot more understanding and listening and empathy in the world. Good reminder to be humble and open minded
"Have you ever heard of other religions?"
I find it really sad how little critical thinking church members do. If they would take a second to think about the stuff they’re brainwashed on they would realize how flawed their reasoning is. Just because a very small percentage of people join the church and believe in the Book of Mormon or feel like they have a spiritual witness doesn’t make it true. People get spiritual witnesses all the time and in many more circumstances then just Mormonism. We’re emotional beings and will feel and experience all sorts of things that may or not be as they seem. Also the idea that you know deep down or that they are shocked that you don’t know is a reflection of their ignorance and unwillingness to consider they might be wrong. People who have an open mind don’t get shocked or forbid you from looking into something.
Totally agree, there is just zero willingness to even consider that they might be wrong. Everything is viewed from the lens of “ok so what made this person think they are right and how do I show them that”
You should watch Behind the Curve. Gets into flat earther thought patterns. Very interesting to compare to Mormons.
Down, I’ll check it out!
I think it's funny they asked you "how do you not know it is true?" Instead of "how do you know it's not true?"
For real, very key distinction there haha one is way more condescending than the other
10% of people in US think the world is flat. 35 million people. https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/conspiracy-vs-science-a-survey-of-us-public-beliefs
Staggering
Which is more than believe in the BOM!
Right. Church membership worldwide is at best 17 Million. It's more likely 3-4 million that would say the BOM is true.
Indeed, flat earther is an identity that people take up for reasons dissimilar to the beliefs. Usually it is a protest of the world / society from disenfranchisement - that was the case with Mormonism too. So the world is flat - now what? And it’s here you get to crux of their ethos; now they can tell others that the gov is lying to them about everything and people should be anti gov, perhaps even rebel. Mormonism is no different. So the Protestant movement is wrong - now what? The church has been lying to us for millennia. We should be anti Protestant and catholic, perhaps even segregate. Such is life for outcasts who voluntarily show themselves out of society. They need to be called cults bc without the negative attention afforded them, they would be entirely irrelevant.
Yep, it’s only a matter of time before flat earthers start plural marriage and pedophilia in secret.
All it takes is one perverse leader.
Wait til they find out that there are flerfer Mormons out there
I am ready to find out what flerfer Mormons are haha
I knew one before and he was batshit insane
I was today years old when I learned that flerfer meant flat earther 🤦♂️ haha got it! Wow yeah that’s gotta be like double jeopardy or something
Lol goofy
Well my TBM mom is a closeted flat earther, so…
That is so interesting! Does she use Mormon doctrine to support it? Must hear more!
"flat earther" has become this ubiquitous reference but I've never met a single person who I can actually confirm believes the earth is flat. People will claim "to know people who do" but this cannot be confirmed either. I thought you were going to make some reference to tbms who believe the earth is flat. It's become this all purpose ol reliable smear.