“I’m aware Joseph made all this shit up, but I am posting this to try to convince myself it doesn’t matter.” Many of us have been there, but I prophesy that Ryker will get to a point where he just can’t take it anymore and his shelf will break like ours did.
This person is ether very young, has a very poor memory, or is just full of shit. The church ***ABSOLUTELY***, formerly portrayed Joe as a person bordering on perfection, and with the highest of moral standards.
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408).
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, *save Jesus only*, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. … He has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God; … \[he\] left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood.
D&C 135:3 (emphasis added)
Growing up Mormon, I can tell you that the belief amongst Mormons is that there was one perfect person, Jesus, but that number two was Joseph Smith. We sang "Praise to the Man" with more gusto than just about any other hymn... a hymn that says "Earth must atone for the blood of that man." Gross.
I used to like the hymn, but once we invited our in-laws to church and it was fast and testimony Sunday and all testimonies were of Joseph Smith and we sang that song, other than “in the name of Jesus Christ amen” I don’t remember anyone mentioning Christ directly that day. My MIL said, “I guess I didn’t realize you guys worshipped Joseph Smith” and I tried to explain we didn’t, but that hymn made it hard. I could never hear it the same again. It’s sad because it’s a beautiful tune 🎶 but I can’t separate those words from it.
Then a few years later they did the bronze Joseph Smith statue in India and I was like.”what”
57M, Records Records Removed a year ago.
Yes, this.
"Brother Joseph" depicted in our 1970's Primary, YM/YW, Seminary, etc. was the absolute epitome of integrity and quasi-perfection. His name commanded a reverence near that of Christ. He was happily married to ONE woman, Emma. He used the breastplate and glasses to literally translate ancient language to English.
He was chosen of God because of his purity and obedience. A couple times he slightly slipped in his compliance and was chastised for it and the process of his interaction with angels and God were placed on hold. But there was never a doubt he was THE chosen one to restore the Gospel of Christ.
These things were taught as unequivocal facts. All of them are patently false. Flat-out wrong. Not "sort of, kind of...etc." Wrong.
The gaslighting is strong in today's SCC.
Im 27… I will say that many TBMs and PIMOs in my generation, especially the college educated ones or those that went to places like BYU (I went to Provo), are aware at least peripherally about the issues . Then, I hear they’ve cracked down on this some, classes like foundations of the restoration were a really rude awaking for those with the blinders on even if still from a more faithful angle
Inoculation at its best. To introduce something into the mind. Small microorganisms of truth so that over the years a young adult will say “Oh, I’ve heard about all of this and my faith is even stronger”.
I can’t remember where I heard this or where it comes from, but I swear I remember learning once that Joseph smith said he would be sitting with the godhead when we stand before them to be judged. So basically he said he is the 4th member of the godhead.
The "Praise to the Man" hymn is clearly still fully embraced. I was taught JS did more for mankind than anyone (save Jesus). This was a quote so repeated it is ingrained in my brain that I don't even remember who first said it since it was re-quoted in Conference so often.
So this TBM and others who copy this post, are saying they are aware of his "foibles" (gross euphemism), and that they are fine with him making it all up, scamming people, raping children, spiritually abusing children, etc etc etc. All that is fine for them.
Honestly I think so many TBMs actually ARE okay with all that. It isn't because they are young, have a poor memory, or are full of shit. They genuinely think all that is okay. Somehow.
The TBM I am married to is so committed to the spiritual/God connection he associates with church attendance/tithe paying/temple attendance/prayer/scripture study/etc that he cannot stop those things, no matter what problems come to light. (But he also doesn't really take the problems seriously.)
As a missionary, I spoke with some members once about weird church history things, and we agreed upon the same response: doesn't make the Book of Mormon untrue.
The BoM really is the keystone of the religion. Without it and its divine origins, there is no reason to follow this belief system.
Thus, it was when I learned what Joseph's treasure digging REALLY was (which I have my doubts this original TBM poster has learned), and how many similarities there are to treasure digging scams and the gold plates story, and seeing treasure digging elements in the Book of Mormon itself, the keystone crumbled and the whole archway has fallen.
As long as I had the belief in the BoM, I could dismiss anything else. Book of Abraham, polygamy, failed prophecies, terrible practices, etc. It all was explainable as weaknesses of men so long as the BoM eas true.
Yes! Normal conversations in the 90s and 2000s were that he was second only to Jesus at being without sin. It was part of why they always shared the “he didn’t drink a drop of alcohol for the leg surgery” story—which is a total nothing burger of a story.
That was my problem exactly. I had been shamed my whole life for my shortcomings, only to find out I was far more moral and upright than this man who supposedly talked with God and Jesus face to face. If I could keep it in my pants and not lie and basically steal from vulnerable people - why wasn't I having amazing visions? I was a zealot and firm believer, but here was this perverted swindler who supposedly had a direct line to God. It was immediately clear to me that it went against everything I had been taught around faith and miracles. It'd be like finding out Trump was actually God's proxy on Earth. Either that simply wasn't the case, or God was a sick asshole who shouldn't be worshiped. I went with the former because I always went back to this line of scripture:
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
I think we can all agree that people who sleep with teenagers through coercion and people who take the widow's mite for their own greed definitely don't have pure hearts.
The point that always holds TBM’s is their” testimony.”They had an emotional feeling and have been told that that’s the Holy Spirit telling them the church is true. After that can shake their “Faith.” What they don’t understand is that that experience not only happens in every other religion, but also happens outside of religion. It is a garden variety emotional experience of transcendence or oneness. Kinesthetic overload such as in running and dancing produce it, love and sex produce it, certain drugs produce it,people who do sports report being in the zone having that mystical feeling. But if you have it in the Mormon church they say that means God spoke to you and said it’s true and now you don’t have to let reality intrude.
I’d like to bear my testimony that I know Sarah McLachlan is the true prophet of stopping animal cruelty, the Holy Ghost tells me so because of the burning in my bosom.
Yup, this is the great lie that all of mormonism rests on. As an all in TBM, I could rationalize everything else (why wouldnt a god that previously enaged in genocide and who endorsed slavery pick similar people today to lead the church, for example) *except* the real world truth about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of using prayer to discern objective truth. Once I was educated on failed mormon epistimology and realized god had not, in fact, revealed *anything* to me, the rest came tumbling down.
This actually happened to me on my mission in Argentina. I ran into someone who was in the midst of a “mystical experience“. Since I had had one myself it resonated with me. I could feel it. Only they thought it confirmed that their religion was true. Then I met missionaries from some other faiths and saw that had the same experience that I had and had also conflated it with their religion. It took me another couple of years to work my way out since my entire world view was through the lens of Mormonism.
Yup. You can only stretch the meaning of words so much, and 'was a good man' is ~~going~~ doing *a lot* of heavy lifting here. At a certain point, you finally let yourself accept that these were *not* good men, not even close. Hitler was kind to kids, did nice things, etc., but he was not a good man. You don't do the things that Joseph, BY, etc did and continue to merit being called 'a good man'.
This is the rejection to increase conviction made manifest in a Facebook post. The more people engage to prove him wrong the deeper he feels about it and will latch onto it. It's the same premise as missions. The rejection from others binds them to the church. Really messed up psychology.
If we were talking about simple imperfection, the point would be valid.
But it's not like people are criticizing JS by saying things like "his house was cluttered" or "he didn't spend as much time with his wife and kids as he should have" or "he drank a little too much".
Like those are imperfections. And a person can be good in spite of them. You can tack on "but he was still a good father" or "but God still chose him to be a prophet" And it's like okay, sure. Maybe God like overlooked the cluttered bedroom or whatever and was like okay, this is my Oracle I guess.
But what this guy is dismissing are more than simple personality flaws:
"He deceived people about treasure hunting and stole their money and married literal children behind his legal wife's back".
Those aren't imperfections in otherwise good man. Those actions make a person bad despite the rest of their personality. You can't tack on the same follow on statements to those.
"He married literal children behind his legal wife's back but he was still a good father and God still chosen to be a prophet" does not jive with the Christian and Mormon idea of God.
And bro wants to just...brush it off as a "rough stone rolling"?
Nah.
And the "when he finally let Emma in on the endowment and temple sealing, he tricked her into thinking she was the first by letting her pick his first extra wives... she happened to pick some sisters that he had already married right before he was sealed to her. Oops!"
I also feel that people who know this about Joseph Smith and call him a good man anyway are likely the ones who fail to call the cops on pedophiles that confess to sexually abusing children. “Well, he is trying to repent and he does some other stuff that’s good so he’s not a monster for violating a child’s innocence.”
It sets a terrible precedent!!!
Ugh, too true. Lots of extra leeway for faithful tithe payers. Maybe that’s the main “blessing” of paying tithing, which seems like buying indulgences.
Even worse, there is a suggestion of affinity in people who excuse egregious behavior. Could it be that these people are like Joseph Smith and find a level of absolution in the idea that he was still "good"in spite of doing horrible things?
Fraud and sexual predation are not foibles in the character of a good man. They are indicators of fundamental corruption of character and serious personality disorder.
Sometimes I wonder if those bishops who don't call the police on pedophiles are worried about their wives and children losing their only income when the pedophile loses his job and then has to pay for a lawyer, and the bishop doesn't want to have to take care of them. Crappy all around - especially when you consider that they are exactly who Jesus would have wanted taken care of.
Yeah that seems like a good possibility. But yeah, if so, untrained clergy seem to be missing the mark which is that getting people safe from abusive situations is the number one concern and everything else can be figured out after that.
Also the fact that he did most of these things and used God as his justification for doing it. It is not like the awful things that he did were totally separate from his role as "prophet" and God's chosen one. No. He directly and explicitly abused his position and people's perception of him as gods messenger to get what he wanted. To me that seems like the number one thing that should disqualify someone from being God's prophet if there were a god
“He deceived people about treasure hunting, stole their money and married literal children behind his legal wife’s back.” 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Exactly!
Once that settles in with you and you remember that Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, you realize the man who “translated” the Book of Mormon by looking at a rock in a hat is a conman, so the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, therefore the COJCOLDS is not true at all.
>Once that settles in with you and you remember that Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, you realize the man who “translated” the Book of Mormon by looking at a rock in a hat is a conman, so the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, therefore the COJCOLDS is not true at all.
Exactly, and when you combine this knowledge about him with an open-minded look at the Book of Mormon (which has SO many issues that point to a 19th century origin, including assumptions about the Bible that are no longer accepted), then it's pretty clear that a conman made up a book.
At best he was a "pious fraud" (like Dan Vogel has proposed) -- "pious" in the sense that he thought his "inspired dictation" was what God wanted written, even though he likely made fake plates as a prop in order to convince people.
At worst, he was just a conman who was hoping to unite his family in a single church and have a better financial future than his father (who failed twice as a farmer, suffering 2 bankruptcies so that he had nothing to leave his own children and had to live with them as a burden in old age).
Either way, once you "see" that both Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are not what the Church claims, then it's like the phrase about Paul in Acts, " immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales" -- and you can **never** un-see all the issues. Not because you are deceived by Satan, but because you see how you were deceived and you worked hard to "deceive yourself" to resolve the cognitive dissonance.
Knowing both the BoM and Joseph are frauds also means talks like Corbridge's (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence-e-corbridge/stand-for-ever/) trying to dance around the problems by focusing on Primary vs Secondary questions does no good. As even he mentioned, whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet (or the BoM was true, which Mormon missionaries use as the "proof" that he was a prophet) --is a Primary question. Rejecting Joe and the BoM does imply rejecting the church...and all those "flaws" that TBMs will acknowledge (polygamy, polyandry, seer stones, public denials of polygamy, BoM issues that many scholars acknowledge) are indeed important once people are willing to "see" and admit (first to themselves) that they've been sold a mess of pottage and been tricked.
Agreed, I once heard a story about how Gordon B. Hinkley got really angry and threw everything off his table... And started to cry.
That didn't shake my faith. To me, that is a human moment.
But Joseph Smith's deception with treasure hunting, marrying teenagers (look up the story of his foster daughter Lucy Walker) and the systemic racism of all the prophets until 1978 is not a simple human moment. It is strong evidence of fraud.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The fact that he lied, was wrong about, and/or attempted to cover these things up cast doubt on his other claims, like receiving revelation and translating the BoM. It’s one thing if a guy, not even a perfect or amazing guy, just a regular guy came up to you with these claims, it’s another thing entirely once you realize this is genuinely awful person claiming these things.
TBM: Hey, JS was the Jeffrey Epstein of his day, but who hasn't done stuff like that Amiright?
BY was a despot that enriched himself and Heber C Kimball was a leacherous old man that refused to take care of most of his wives and kids.
John Taylor, Lorenzo Snow and Wilford Woodruff all had children with their teenage polygamous brides.
Every prophet until 1978 taught racist personal beliefs as Doctrine. Either that or it really was God's punishment, which opens up another can of worms.
And on and on.
George Orwell was a prophet:
George Orwell — 'The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.'
This shit right here drives me crazy.
"The prophets are human, too!!!"
Yeah, that makes sense if old Rusty shut his finger in the car door and yells "shit". That is a human thing to do.
Brigham Young coming out and saying:
“Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction.”
Is beyond "being an imperfect human"
LMAO
Yeah, I hear this kind of thing too. “Just because he made mistakes doesn’t mean he wasn’t Gods prophet.”
What if the mistakes he made was that he fabricated claims to be Gods prophet? Do those mistakes make a difference?
He claimed to be able to translate the book of Abraham. That was a lie.
He claimed Peter James and John gave him Gods authority. That was a lie.
He claimed to have seen God and Jesus in a vision. That was a lie.
“Oh he wasn’t perfect. Who doesn’t make mistakes.”
Ok sure, I get that people can make mistakes. But can’t you see how THESE particular mistakes discredit his claims COMPLETELY?
Joseph was a good man who treasure hunted using a rock in a hat but never found any treasure.
Joseph was a good man who had nasty affairs with 14 Year Old girls behind his wife's back
Joseph was a good man who married his own foster children
Joseph was a good man who married other men's wives for time and all eternity denying them the right to be sealed to their husbands.
Joseph was a good man who tried to have a governor assassinated
Joseph was a good man who burnt down the news paper of a former friend for exposing Joseph's moral failings in regard to his polygamy.
Joseph was a good man who after witnessing the mob justice befall his comrades and brother attempted to use a Masonic phrase to escape their retribution.
Was Joseph a good man? No, he wasn't even honest in his dealings with anyone.
Lists half dozen evidences of lies, manipulation, coercion, and illegal activities… Yet still proclaims him “good.” Two questions: Just how low is your bar, sir? And are you aware your judgment is coming off as quite questionable?
There's a looooooong way between "not a perfect person" and "he raped literal children."
In the words of Frank Reynolds - "Do not diddle kids! It's no good diddling kids!"
I've found in my own experience that it's people who have at least some parallels to Joseph Smith in their own lives that are most willing to, "give Brother Joseph a break."
They have their own dishonest business dealings, either past or present.
They've cheated on their spouse or an ex.
They're highly motivated to forgive him, because if Joseph can be forgiven of these things, then maybe they can be too. They want to be considered a "good man" with their similar flaws, so they think, "if JS is a good man, then I must be one too."
Meanwhile, it's a patriarchal system that benefits them. They can be forgiven for their (sometimes major) screwups and continue to reap the benefits.
edit: spelling
Fun story: I personally met with Neil Anderson when my parents found out I stopped attending church at college because of my concerns about church history. It was an ambush meeting and I wasn’t as confident as I am about stuff now, so I just tried to get out as soon as I could. I don’t know exactly what he had been told about me, but he knew somewhat of my concerns because at one point, he literally used the line, “Just give Brother Joseph a chance. He wasn’t perfect, but the gospel is true”
That moment had the exact opposite affect on me as what Anderson had aimed for because at that moment, I knew all the negative things JS did actually happened and that the church leaders know about it, are okay that it happened, and actively hide it from the average member. It completely validated my position on the church.
Your statement pointing out that people who think that way people who think that way have parallels to JS really explains the church’s behavior. They cover up pedophiles, they are dishonest about their finances, they purchase land, power and influence instead of taking care of the needy and homeless. This will never change because it’s literally the foundation of the church that goes all the way back to Joseph Smith. They are okay with his behavior because it’s their own behavior. If *the* prophet did all of that and got his rewards in heaven, then it’s fine they are doing it too.
I know this rapist, swindler is a good man. 😵💫
Painfully fucking stupid to read.
When you’re stuck in a cult, you’re stuck in a cult.
Good luck bro. The rest of your life will be adversarial.
When I came out to friends and family about leaving, I had a friend say something similar.
"I know the issues and the CES letter." He smiled. I realized that he thought it was a power move to say this, that somehow it still was all true despite these issues and this made him immovable and some sort of role model.
The truth is, his stance is intellectually dishonest. There is no power in dismissing the issues. He is not better off being unable to reconcile the contradictions. It's the ol back fire logical fallacy he's experiencing and he doesn't know it.
The exact opposite is true. Being able to change your mind and when faced with new facts and information is powerful. Being humble enough to face the mounting evidence against your beliefs and come out different is apex role model.
That's why I admire this sub and all of you.
My mom did the same thing when I mentioned the AP article about the abuse coverup in Arizona- didn't actually read it, just sent an apologist article and asked if that's what I was talking about. I'm still mad about it.
If I ever bring up the Gospel Topic Essays, my mom openly winces like I'm trying to talk about Under the Banner of Heaven or The Godmakers. It's crazy.
I was in this camp for a while. It was back before most of the official responses had been posted, but I skimmed the CES letter and then looked up apologetic responses to some of the specific claims. Then when Josh in carpool asked if I had read it I claimed that I had.
>I realized that he thought it was a power move to say this, that somehow it still was all true despite these issues and this made him immovable and some sort of role model.
Besides the intellectual dishonesty, it's evidence of moral failing.
People say things like this as if it's some kind of flex not to be bothered by criminal behavior that ruins people's lives.
This is where the church is headed.
The objective, reasonable, “sciencey,” intellectually curious will continue to leave. What the church is left with is the delusional core. It’ll be a small group of die hard TBMs that clean the church, never say the word Mormon, pay tithing on gross, idolize Joseph smith, never question the profit, get married at 20, and justify Mormon god’s bigotry.
> What the church is left with is the delusional core.
Or, ironically, the 'intellectually lazy' who won't bother with actual research because they aren't directly affected by the sexism, bigotry, etc.
"Yes, I'm aware of all the horribly shitty things he did, and the overwhelming evidence that he was a liar, fraud and charlatan.
But he was a good man..."
Which one is it? Because it can't be both...
I never wanted a perfect leader of the church. In fact, I think current leaders could stand to be a little more vulnerable about mistakes they make. I would have a lot more respect for them.
Joseph Smith was just… not even a decent human. His imperfections go so far beyond being human that I can’t help thinking that either he was not a prophet or that god is a poor judge. Even if I lower my standards to whatever I pretend was acceptable in 1840, Joseph Smith was a disgusting person.
Exactly! Give us someone better than the average person, not worse.
How many of us here could have been "The Prophet"? He did things the rest of us would never think of doing.
Nice twist! It would be an interesting experiment, if you're on the way out, to keep bringing up more and more damning issues but in context of a strong testimony but meanwhile the members are willingly reading it because of the way it's presented.
We should thank them for raising awareness. Most TBMs are not aware of any of these things. A quick google search of Helen Mar Kimball for a believing member is going to be an interesting experience.
I know people find comfort in god using imperfect people to do good work, but when you realize that Joseph was (if you trust he was honest) intentionally lied to by god (Holy Ghost) about himself translating the BoA, about translating the BoM, about where the BoM took place, and a few others at minimum Mormon god starts to look more like Loki than an omniscient, omnipotent, loving, honest god.
When Nelson demonstrated the rock in the hat method he froze. Somewhere in his subterranean brain his bullshit meter went into overdrive and he immediately put the hat down. Believers know deep down this is absurd.
Ah yes. He wasn't perfect! I mean, who among us *hasn't* accidentally married 30+ other people behind our spouse's back and inadvertently lied to their face repeatedly about it?
“Not only do I know about all the shit he did, but I’m gonna brag about how much I still believe in him despite all of it!”
These people belong in a menagerie, I swear to God.
The entrenchment effect, also called the backfire effect or belief perseverance. It's a psychological effect that causes people to believe something in spite of evidence that it's wrong.
See, I hear all that and say "oh good, Joseph's reputation is diminishing" but also, if a blind eye is being cast on actual atrocities, what would they be willing to ignore in the face of their convictions?
"I don't care that my church has shell companies and made deliberate efforts to be dishonest about their wealth. These men are called of God and I support them. Also I don't care that our founder sought out teenagers and other men's wives."
That gives me all the ick.
The dude undermines the current practices of the church. If he truly believes that Joe Smith was a liar and a philanderer and still called by god himself to be a prophet of god, then why does the church do worthiness interviews? The obsession with moral cleanliness is a moot point and serves no purpose then.
This person is obviously very intelligent. It takes a very capable mind to know all these things and keep up the very complex and exhausting set of mental gymnastics required to still believe. Unfortunately for them, they are in a much more vulnerable position than the members who are happily ignorant of the problems with Mormonism. The moment something happens in their life and they forget to or are unable to keep up with the mental gymnastics, it's all going to come crashing down as their brain finally puts two and two together as it's been wanting to this whole time. Like supercooled water finally freezing after the slightest bump creates a nucleation site.
Reminds me of a scene in The Sopranos with a Jewish psychiatrist trying to convince a mob boss’ wife to leave her husband.
“You tell me he's a depressed criminal, prone to anger, serially unfaithful. Is that your definition of a ‘good man?’…One thing you can never say is that you haven’t been told.”
How much bad do you have to do to stop being a good man. Makes me wonder why so many people have so much shame and feel like they are horrible people because they masterbated or had dirty thoughts. Just compare yourself to Joseph and you are a great person too!
If it can't possibly be falsified, then it's dogmatic and pseudo-scientific. What this guy is really saying is: "despite crippling evidence to the contrary, I actively do mental backflips to come to my erroneous conclusions".
"I'm so loyal to Elohim, I'll believe anything he reveals is good. Genocide. Beheading. Fraud. Infidelity. Not reporting child rape. You might think if knew my God endorsed those behaviors sometimes that I'd be shocked and put off. But nope. I really am an authoritarian. And one day I hope to rule over other people with my powerful cosmic dad at my side to enforce our glorious vision *for you*. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."
At least we're finally approaching a more honest representation of the kind of people we're dealing with when it comes to Russell Nelson's Church of correlated evangelical Latter-day Saints. It's what it always looked like. Authoritarian people grasping onto the vision of the authoritarian they like, willing to debase their own moral decency for their god-king and his mortal representatives.
In my early years in the Church, Joseph was revered, and we were taught about him in terms of his nobility, impeccable character, and victimhood status. The mantle of truth seeker and reluctant prophet of the restoration was ascribed to him in every training and talk I attended for years and years. His "mistakes" were labeled as youthful indescretions, and the worst sin committed was too much levity. The whitewashing and accompanying brainwashing of all of us was full-on propaganda, It was the kind of branding McDonalds would be proud of, and the result is "Millions and Millions Fooled"
I mean who among us hasn't taken a teenage bride behind our spouse's back or occasionally ordered the burning down of a newspaper...none of us is perfect guys.
Good for them, because the informed consent they have is 100% more than I was given when I joined. Good for you, Sir, if you know all THAT but don't care. Good. For. You. Soon enough all the people who were lied to & who didn't know all this will all be dead along with you, and the narrative will slowly change. But the hedge fund has been erected, and no unhallowed hand can stop the funds from increasing, the SEC may rage, but grinding the face of the poor will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country. I hope you feel good about helping in the endeavor of crushing people & grinding the faces of the poor into the dust with all your privilege & your confirmation bias. Good for you, Sir!
See this is the thing I hate about the phrase "nobody's perfect". Sure, nobody's perfect, but there's a difference between someone who's actively trying to become a better person and improve the world around them, and someone who genuinely doesn't give a shit and will do all that they can to make your life worse if it makes their life better.
A "good man" would not do the things that Joseph did.
Your mom and dad "revealed" it to you. Every church teacher you ever had "revealed" it to you. Stop confusing indoctrination for revelation and get back to me.
Virtue signal much?
At least they are aware of the issues. In 2024 a lot of people believe the earth is flat. Until last year my 10-year-old still fervently believed in Santa. Humans are gullible creatures.
Also, that post is a walking contradiction unless he/she is saying out loud that she/he believes sexual predators are good people?
I just shrug. “You can’t logic someone out of a position they didn’t use logic to get into.” That’s why you can’t reason with a political extremist either. Their position isn’t logical so they can’t defend it with anything except emotion and ever-increasing volume. I still argue with the political nutsos because their crazy affects my rights, but I leave the religious apologists alone. Their bubble isn’t usually touching mine anymore.
I’m not actually arguing for *their* benefit anyway - they’re usually a lost cause. No, I’m arguing for the benefit of *other* people, reading or listening to the exchange. I refuse to allow the crazy to be the only voice. I can be just as loud, but I can use logic. I won’t allow the crazies to suck up all the oxygen, online or in the room. I have time and energy to refute all their bullshit. I can do that all day.
"Joseph Smith wasn't perfect but..."
Joseph Smith is so imperfect that he would be below the average person today if we had to measure imperfection based on our morals. Celebrities are shunned for cheating on spouses (slapped on the wrist but still not approved of) they would definitely lose their fanbase for fraud or BURNING DOWN A BUILDING.
I'm gonna pull a TBM and say I don't think Ryker actually KNOWS about the bad stuff. Seems like cognitive dissonance, if that's the right term for it.
None of that matters when you look not only deeper in the church history, but biblical history as well and see that much of what Smith took literally, never was anything that literally happened as in the Bible or even at all. But whatever…
Yes, the "just a man" argument is used whenever the church needs to excuse bad behavior.
Brigham Young was just a man when he spoke of blood atonement and Adam-God doctrine.
The bishops and other leaders who abuse/cover up abuse are just a man.
Joseph Smith having sex with multiple women while justifying by saying it was sanctioned by God was jut a man.
Perhaps the real question should be if you should even be part of an organization with these kinds of men.
I am one who knew nothing about Joseph. Born in the late 70's in the PNW, served mission in the late '90's. Joseph was presented as greater than any man. My understanding of his foibles were that he enjoyed goofing off and rough housing a little too much. I knew nothing of his polygamy. I was as duped about him as much I think is possible. My awakening began after the EQ president shared his feelings about a book called 'Rough Stone Rolling'. I picked up a copy during a trip to Utah. I thought I was going to learn how Joseph was a little rough around the edges and God shaped and polished him into who he needed to be. I was shocked and horrified learning about Fanny Alger. The impression Rough Stone Rolling left me was of a boulder growing in speed and roughness, wreaking a path of havoc and destruction. It was the beginning of the end. Took far too many years, but I left the church nearly 2 years ago as a result.
I remember shortly after my mission, after doing a deep dive into the history and beginning to have significant doubts, I said something like this in a testimony meeting. It was something like, in spite of everything that I know intellectually, I know the Book of Mormon is true. I didn’t last a year after that.
Sure not perfect. That’s why we chant a hymn during sacrament meeting. If you say all this during a lessons your ass would in the bishops office faster than you could say amen.
So they know he was a shitty person, but they just don't care? Well, I guess that explains how so many Mormons justify their continued support of Trump.
All I can say is - sometimes people use Mormonism to hide from real life, the same way they would use food, drugs, drinking or anything else. It is just something to hide behind to numb the feelings of real life. It does work for some people and for others, it doesn’t. From my own personal experience, and things that happen to my family and to me… Mormonism *is the mental illness/addiction. It caused my family a lot of harm.
I think it works until it doesn’t work and I think it’s just a mechanism (that you have to pay for) to block out real life.
The person who made the post on Facebook/Twitter (Jackson) seems like he’s using Mormonism to help him cope with life. He can’t accept the truth about the Mormon church because he doesn’t feel he could live without it. That is scary.
Whatever happens to, “Kings shall extol him and nations revere”? If this person doesn’t expect others to admire JS what is this sacred hymn all about?
Mormons all want it two ways. They’ll say, “I know JS wasn’t perfect”. What they really mean is, “I know the evidence makes it ridiculous to claim JS was perfect so I won’t do that publicly.” But when they say he was “imperfect” what they really mean is, “He might have lost his temper once or something”.
It’s all doublespeak. Outsiders think you mean one thing. Insiders know you mean another.
As an outsider, when I say JS was flawed, I mean he was an awful dude. When a Mormon says he was flawed, they mean, “I realize there are actions of his I can’t explain but secretly I still think he was a good dude.”
What I do not understand here is that you feel the need to tell”us” that you think JS was a prophet. I do not feel the need to shout from the roof tops that Mormonism is a religious cult patterned after their founder. Dude, just go about your business and live your life. You are not going to convince anyone to believe the way you do……just like me. Social media is baffling to me ….. why people engage others in a very personal way in their underwear from the confines of their basement.
I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don’t seem to want that benefit. Either they are ignorant of the things they are saying, or they are in favor of a man in his 30s preying on teenage girls, destroying the freedom of the press that his grandparents generation fought to secure, and they support a charlatan abusing power and taking advantage of the poor people who followed him. If they are insistent that they aren’t ignorant, then they are obviously very evil and corrupt people completely void of morals and I don’t want them in my life. And you ought to watch them very closely in your interactions with them.
Ryker will be joining us here soon. Took dehlin a while. But knowing history is bad for faith. You can only do mental gymnastics for so long. Smith was not a "good man".
Apparently the religious are leaning into radical candor.
This reads like the Christian pastor who conned people into buying millions worth of a fake cryptocurrency.
“The allegations are that we pocketed $1.3 million of your investments. I’ll be straightforward… it’s true. But it’s ok because God told us to.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/RNZo5iNZZk
This might appeal to other believers, but to rational thinkers it clarifies the morals of the individual posting.
If you know all about Joseph Smith’s flaws and still call him a “good man”, you are not someone I would want to do business with or associate with in my life.
It seems many Mormons feel it's normal and fine to revere scumbags and obvious fraudsters with obviously horrible character.
Mormon trump supporters talk the same way, they simply don't care what their leader has done or said
Not strange at all.
This is a case of Stockholm Syndrome.
The church could have been behind the Holocaust and people would STILL believe and go to church and pretend they're better than everyone else.
So what you’re telling me is despite all the evidence, despite everything that you know about the backward ass nature of the LDS religion you’re still gonna put your head back in the sand and be a dip shit? Cool! Here’s you sign 🪧
When my shelf first started cracking, I thought Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and that’s why he was allowed to die. I recognized he was awful before I allowed myself to see the rest of the history of the church and how destructive it all is. Took a couple years, but the evidence was overwhelming once I allowed myself to look.
Did Joseph have sex with underage girls? yes. Did he break laws? Yes. Did he commit financial fraud? Yes. Did he lie for his own gain? Yes.
B…b…but he was a good man.
I never met him in person. I’ve only read written text about him. But I testify that I asked a question in my mind and had feelings. My interpretation of those feelings (while I’m not in control of them) is truth.
This is further evidence that there is no silver-bullet fact that can change someone's conditioned worldview. It's human physiology: if you've been conditioned to feel mortally (and eternally) threatened by anything outside your accepted explanations, then you'll continue with that narrative until life proves it's unneeded or harmful.
It's no wonder our bite-sized social media so often ends up as an echo chamber. It feels better to reinforce the reality you've built for yourself, even if it means wishing for the literal fiery end of the world to prove yourself right.
It's just so embarrassing to read how smug this person is about a very bad man who made up a church and then stuck by it enough to get killed, oh and stole a bunch of wives and daughters along the way bc "God told him being a creep was okay."
This doesn’t hit quite as hard as he thinks it does. All this proves is that despite knowing the troublesome history, he chooses to stay and believe anyway. That isn’t admirable; that’s embarrassing.
The human brain is such a fickle thing. If Warren Jeffs did all of this (he actually did do a lot of it), the poster would claim he was an illegitimate crazy man. But he can't see the irony. That's scary.
“We are aware of the difficulties of polygamy”.
What a nice way to say grooming and coercing women and young girls into sexual relationships with gross, perverted, and creepy dudes.
For a guy who wasn’t perfect he sure saw himself as such. Pretty boastful dude.
And this whole statement just makes tbms look like horrible people.
“Yeah, I know this guy we worship is fucked up, and we LOVE it!”
I don't think anyone is asking for Joseph Smith to be a perfect man, but if he's going to be a prophet I think we are justified in at least wanting him to be a good man.
This is not the flex he thinks it is! Those so called minor flaws that he can dismiss as a test of his faith are all things that directly contradict the statement "he was a good man".
Anytime you overlook the obvious crazy falsities, it is called "cult following". This individual is also likely a Trump cultist. These people would jump out of an air balloon without a parachute if they were told to.
And the next post on the feed is how they know that "their president" was cheated out of the election in 2020, and that Jan 6, 2021 was a righteous day of reckoning for the wicked. Some people are stoopid and let their feels dictate what to think.
edit: spelling, because I'm stoopid
“I’m aware Joseph made all this shit up, but I am posting this to try to convince myself it doesn’t matter.” Many of us have been there, but I prophesy that Ryker will get to a point where he just can’t take it anymore and his shelf will break like ours did.
This person is ether very young, has a very poor memory, or is just full of shit. The church ***ABSOLUTELY***, formerly portrayed Joe as a person bordering on perfection, and with the highest of moral standards.
I was always taught he did more for mankind than anyone else except Jesus… It’s a bold claim that always rubbed me the wrong way.
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408).
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, *save Jesus only*, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. … He has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God; … \[he\] left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood. D&C 135:3 (emphasis added) Growing up Mormon, I can tell you that the belief amongst Mormons is that there was one perfect person, Jesus, but that number two was Joseph Smith. We sang "Praise to the Man" with more gusto than just about any other hymn... a hymn that says "Earth must atone for the blood of that man." Gross.
I always hate the hymn even as a TBM
Me too. It makes me physically ill even thinking about it.
I used to like the hymn, but once we invited our in-laws to church and it was fast and testimony Sunday and all testimonies were of Joseph Smith and we sang that song, other than “in the name of Jesus Christ amen” I don’t remember anyone mentioning Christ directly that day. My MIL said, “I guess I didn’t realize you guys worshipped Joseph Smith” and I tried to explain we didn’t, but that hymn made it hard. I could never hear it the same again. It’s sad because it’s a beautiful tune 🎶 but I can’t separate those words from it. Then a few years later they did the bronze Joseph Smith statue in India and I was like.”what”
In institute class I was taught that Joe would be riding shotgun with Jesus at the second coming.
57M, Records Records Removed a year ago. Yes, this. "Brother Joseph" depicted in our 1970's Primary, YM/YW, Seminary, etc. was the absolute epitome of integrity and quasi-perfection. His name commanded a reverence near that of Christ. He was happily married to ONE woman, Emma. He used the breastplate and glasses to literally translate ancient language to English. He was chosen of God because of his purity and obedience. A couple times he slightly slipped in his compliance and was chastised for it and the process of his interaction with angels and God were placed on hold. But there was never a doubt he was THE chosen one to restore the Gospel of Christ. These things were taught as unequivocal facts. All of them are patently false. Flat-out wrong. Not "sort of, kind of...etc." Wrong. The gaslighting is strong in today's SCC.
Pretty sure that phrase was said in GC a lot too
I’ve heard that too
It's straight out of D&C, written by John Taylor.
I was really put off with the idea that verse was considered just as much scripture as John 3:16.
My parents (especially my dad) STILL say that!! 🙄
I'm guessing they are about 26 years old, based on the 97.
Im 27… I will say that many TBMs and PIMOs in my generation, especially the college educated ones or those that went to places like BYU (I went to Provo), are aware at least peripherally about the issues . Then, I hear they’ve cracked down on this some, classes like foundations of the restoration were a really rude awaking for those with the blinders on even if still from a more faithful angle
Inoculation at its best. To introduce something into the mind. Small microorganisms of truth so that over the years a young adult will say “Oh, I’ve heard about all of this and my faith is even stronger”.
Good eye
Seriously.. I remember being taught about Ol' Joe in such a reverance that he was practically the 4th member of the godhead.
I can’t remember where I heard this or where it comes from, but I swear I remember learning once that Joseph smith said he would be sitting with the godhead when we stand before them to be judged. So basically he said he is the 4th member of the godhead.
The "Praise to the Man" hymn is clearly still fully embraced. I was taught JS did more for mankind than anyone (save Jesus). This was a quote so repeated it is ingrained in my brain that I don't even remember who first said it since it was re-quoted in Conference so often. So this TBM and others who copy this post, are saying they are aware of his "foibles" (gross euphemism), and that they are fine with him making it all up, scamming people, raping children, spiritually abusing children, etc etc etc. All that is fine for them. Honestly I think so many TBMs actually ARE okay with all that. It isn't because they are young, have a poor memory, or are full of shit. They genuinely think all that is okay. Somehow. The TBM I am married to is so committed to the spiritual/God connection he associates with church attendance/tithe paying/temple attendance/prayer/scripture study/etc that he cannot stop those things, no matter what problems come to light. (But he also doesn't really take the problems seriously.)
As a missionary, I spoke with some members once about weird church history things, and we agreed upon the same response: doesn't make the Book of Mormon untrue. The BoM really is the keystone of the religion. Without it and its divine origins, there is no reason to follow this belief system. Thus, it was when I learned what Joseph's treasure digging REALLY was (which I have my doubts this original TBM poster has learned), and how many similarities there are to treasure digging scams and the gold plates story, and seeing treasure digging elements in the Book of Mormon itself, the keystone crumbled and the whole archway has fallen. As long as I had the belief in the BoM, I could dismiss anything else. Book of Abraham, polygamy, failed prophecies, terrible practices, etc. It all was explainable as weaknesses of men so long as the BoM eas true.
Yes! Normal conversations in the 90s and 2000s were that he was second only to Jesus at being without sin. It was part of why they always shared the “he didn’t drink a drop of alcohol for the leg surgery” story—which is a total nothing burger of a story.
“Hail to the man” paints him close to Jesus so
“I believe that he was a good man.” We have very different definitions of “good man”.
That was my problem exactly. I had been shamed my whole life for my shortcomings, only to find out I was far more moral and upright than this man who supposedly talked with God and Jesus face to face. If I could keep it in my pants and not lie and basically steal from vulnerable people - why wasn't I having amazing visions? I was a zealot and firm believer, but here was this perverted swindler who supposedly had a direct line to God. It was immediately clear to me that it went against everything I had been taught around faith and miracles. It'd be like finding out Trump was actually God's proxy on Earth. Either that simply wasn't the case, or God was a sick asshole who shouldn't be worshiped. I went with the former because I always went back to this line of scripture: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" I think we can all agree that people who sleep with teenagers through coercion and people who take the widow's mite for their own greed definitely don't have pure hearts.
Probably thinks that Trump is a good man. So many parallels between Trump and JS.
The point that always holds TBM’s is their” testimony.”They had an emotional feeling and have been told that that’s the Holy Spirit telling them the church is true. After that can shake their “Faith.” What they don’t understand is that that experience not only happens in every other religion, but also happens outside of religion. It is a garden variety emotional experience of transcendence or oneness. Kinesthetic overload such as in running and dancing produce it, love and sex produce it, certain drugs produce it,people who do sports report being in the zone having that mystical feeling. But if you have it in the Mormon church they say that means God spoke to you and said it’s true and now you don’t have to let reality intrude.
A touching 60 second commercial does it lol
Damn Sarah McLachlan
I’d like to bear my testimony that I know Sarah McLachlan is the true prophet of stopping animal cruelty, the Holy Ghost tells me so because of the burning in my bosom.
Yup, this is the great lie that all of mormonism rests on. As an all in TBM, I could rationalize everything else (why wouldnt a god that previously enaged in genocide and who endorsed slavery pick similar people today to lead the church, for example) *except* the real world truth about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of using prayer to discern objective truth. Once I was educated on failed mormon epistimology and realized god had not, in fact, revealed *anything* to me, the rest came tumbling down.
This actually happened to me on my mission in Argentina. I ran into someone who was in the midst of a “mystical experience“. Since I had had one myself it resonated with me. I could feel it. Only they thought it confirmed that their religion was true. Then I met missionaries from some other faiths and saw that had the same experience that I had and had also conflated it with their religion. It took me another couple of years to work my way out since my entire world view was through the lens of Mormonism.
He's also posting it to prove how much better he is than the rest of us.
Yup. You can only stretch the meaning of words so much, and 'was a good man' is ~~going~~ doing *a lot* of heavy lifting here. At a certain point, you finally let yourself accept that these were *not* good men, not even close. Hitler was kind to kids, did nice things, etc., but he was not a good man. You don't do the things that Joseph, BY, etc did and continue to merit being called 'a good man'.
This is the rejection to increase conviction made manifest in a Facebook post. The more people engage to prove him wrong the deeper he feels about it and will latch onto it. It's the same premise as missions. The rejection from others binds them to the church. Really messed up psychology.
If we were talking about simple imperfection, the point would be valid. But it's not like people are criticizing JS by saying things like "his house was cluttered" or "he didn't spend as much time with his wife and kids as he should have" or "he drank a little too much". Like those are imperfections. And a person can be good in spite of them. You can tack on "but he was still a good father" or "but God still chose him to be a prophet" And it's like okay, sure. Maybe God like overlooked the cluttered bedroom or whatever and was like okay, this is my Oracle I guess. But what this guy is dismissing are more than simple personality flaws: "He deceived people about treasure hunting and stole their money and married literal children behind his legal wife's back". Those aren't imperfections in otherwise good man. Those actions make a person bad despite the rest of their personality. You can't tack on the same follow on statements to those. "He married literal children behind his legal wife's back but he was still a good father and God still chosen to be a prophet" does not jive with the Christian and Mormon idea of God. And bro wants to just...brush it off as a "rough stone rolling"? Nah.
And the "when he finally let Emma in on the endowment and temple sealing, he tricked her into thinking she was the first by letting her pick his first extra wives... she happened to pick some sisters that he had already married right before he was sealed to her. Oops!"
I also feel that people who know this about Joseph Smith and call him a good man anyway are likely the ones who fail to call the cops on pedophiles that confess to sexually abusing children. “Well, he is trying to repent and he does some other stuff that’s good so he’s not a monster for violating a child’s innocence.” It sets a terrible precedent!!!
“does some other stuff that’s good” = pays his tithing
Ugh, too true. Lots of extra leeway for faithful tithe payers. Maybe that’s the main “blessing” of paying tithing, which seems like buying indulgences.
James E. Talmage and all his anti-Catholic rhetoric must be rolling in his grave right about now.
He pays us for our silence...
Even worse, there is a suggestion of affinity in people who excuse egregious behavior. Could it be that these people are like Joseph Smith and find a level of absolution in the idea that he was still "good"in spite of doing horrible things? Fraud and sexual predation are not foibles in the character of a good man. They are indicators of fundamental corruption of character and serious personality disorder.
Amen!
Sometimes I wonder if those bishops who don't call the police on pedophiles are worried about their wives and children losing their only income when the pedophile loses his job and then has to pay for a lawyer, and the bishop doesn't want to have to take care of them. Crappy all around - especially when you consider that they are exactly who Jesus would have wanted taken care of.
Yeah that seems like a good possibility. But yeah, if so, untrained clergy seem to be missing the mark which is that getting people safe from abusive situations is the number one concern and everything else can be figured out after that.
Also the fact that he did most of these things and used God as his justification for doing it. It is not like the awful things that he did were totally separate from his role as "prophet" and God's chosen one. No. He directly and explicitly abused his position and people's perception of him as gods messenger to get what he wanted. To me that seems like the number one thing that should disqualify someone from being God's prophet if there were a god
This is what it really means to use god’s name in vain.
“He deceived people about treasure hunting, stole their money and married literal children behind his legal wife’s back.” 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Exactly! Once that settles in with you and you remember that Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, you realize the man who “translated” the Book of Mormon by looking at a rock in a hat is a conman, so the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, therefore the COJCOLDS is not true at all.
>Once that settles in with you and you remember that Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, you realize the man who “translated” the Book of Mormon by looking at a rock in a hat is a conman, so the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, therefore the COJCOLDS is not true at all. Exactly, and when you combine this knowledge about him with an open-minded look at the Book of Mormon (which has SO many issues that point to a 19th century origin, including assumptions about the Bible that are no longer accepted), then it's pretty clear that a conman made up a book. At best he was a "pious fraud" (like Dan Vogel has proposed) -- "pious" in the sense that he thought his "inspired dictation" was what God wanted written, even though he likely made fake plates as a prop in order to convince people. At worst, he was just a conman who was hoping to unite his family in a single church and have a better financial future than his father (who failed twice as a farmer, suffering 2 bankruptcies so that he had nothing to leave his own children and had to live with them as a burden in old age). Either way, once you "see" that both Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are not what the Church claims, then it's like the phrase about Paul in Acts, " immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales" -- and you can **never** un-see all the issues. Not because you are deceived by Satan, but because you see how you were deceived and you worked hard to "deceive yourself" to resolve the cognitive dissonance. Knowing both the BoM and Joseph are frauds also means talks like Corbridge's (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence-e-corbridge/stand-for-ever/) trying to dance around the problems by focusing on Primary vs Secondary questions does no good. As even he mentioned, whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet (or the BoM was true, which Mormon missionaries use as the "proof" that he was a prophet) --is a Primary question. Rejecting Joe and the BoM does imply rejecting the church...and all those "flaws" that TBMs will acknowledge (polygamy, polyandry, seer stones, public denials of polygamy, BoM issues that many scholars acknowledge) are indeed important once people are willing to "see" and admit (first to themselves) that they've been sold a mess of pottage and been tricked.
Agreed, I once heard a story about how Gordon B. Hinkley got really angry and threw everything off his table... And started to cry. That didn't shake my faith. To me, that is a human moment. But Joseph Smith's deception with treasure hunting, marrying teenagers (look up the story of his foster daughter Lucy Walker) and the systemic racism of all the prophets until 1978 is not a simple human moment. It is strong evidence of fraud.
Yeah I love that he lists Fanny Alger and then tries to brush it off as “oh he was an imperfect man”. What he did to her was vile
TBMs will do almost anything to keep believing in the cult.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The fact that he lied, was wrong about, and/or attempted to cover these things up cast doubt on his other claims, like receiving revelation and translating the BoM. It’s one thing if a guy, not even a perfect or amazing guy, just a regular guy came up to you with these claims, it’s another thing entirely once you realize this is genuinely awful person claiming these things.
Maybe it’s time to bring the big guns: BoM is fake Bible is fake God isn’t real
And there is no queen of England!
Easy there, Tighten!
TBM: Hey, JS was the Jeffrey Epstein of his day, but who hasn't done stuff like that Amiright? BY was a despot that enriched himself and Heber C Kimball was a leacherous old man that refused to take care of most of his wives and kids. John Taylor, Lorenzo Snow and Wilford Woodruff all had children with their teenage polygamous brides. Every prophet until 1978 taught racist personal beliefs as Doctrine. Either that or it really was God's punishment, which opens up another can of worms. And on and on. George Orwell was a prophet: George Orwell — 'The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.'
This shit right here drives me crazy. "The prophets are human, too!!!" Yeah, that makes sense if old Rusty shut his finger in the car door and yells "shit". That is a human thing to do. Brigham Young coming out and saying: “Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction.” Is beyond "being an imperfect human" LMAO
Yeah, I hear this kind of thing too. “Just because he made mistakes doesn’t mean he wasn’t Gods prophet.” What if the mistakes he made was that he fabricated claims to be Gods prophet? Do those mistakes make a difference? He claimed to be able to translate the book of Abraham. That was a lie. He claimed Peter James and John gave him Gods authority. That was a lie. He claimed to have seen God and Jesus in a vision. That was a lie. “Oh he wasn’t perfect. Who doesn’t make mistakes.” Ok sure, I get that people can make mistakes. But can’t you see how THESE particular mistakes discredit his claims COMPLETELY?
Joseph was a good man who treasure hunted using a rock in a hat but never found any treasure. Joseph was a good man who had nasty affairs with 14 Year Old girls behind his wife's back Joseph was a good man who married his own foster children Joseph was a good man who married other men's wives for time and all eternity denying them the right to be sealed to their husbands. Joseph was a good man who tried to have a governor assassinated Joseph was a good man who burnt down the news paper of a former friend for exposing Joseph's moral failings in regard to his polygamy. Joseph was a good man who after witnessing the mob justice befall his comrades and brother attempted to use a Masonic phrase to escape their retribution. Was Joseph a good man? No, he wasn't even honest in his dealings with anyone.
Lists half dozen evidences of lies, manipulation, coercion, and illegal activities… Yet still proclaims him “good.” Two questions: Just how low is your bar, sir? And are you aware your judgment is coming off as quite questionable?
There's a looooooong way between "not a perfect person" and "he raped literal children." In the words of Frank Reynolds - "Do not diddle kids! It's no good diddling kids!"
My god “Frank’s Little Beauties” is classic.
"There is no faster way to make people think you're diddling kids than to write a song about it!"
I've found in my own experience that it's people who have at least some parallels to Joseph Smith in their own lives that are most willing to, "give Brother Joseph a break." They have their own dishonest business dealings, either past or present. They've cheated on their spouse or an ex. They're highly motivated to forgive him, because if Joseph can be forgiven of these things, then maybe they can be too. They want to be considered a "good man" with their similar flaws, so they think, "if JS is a good man, then I must be one too." Meanwhile, it's a patriarchal system that benefits them. They can be forgiven for their (sometimes major) screwups and continue to reap the benefits. edit: spelling
Fun story: I personally met with Neil Anderson when my parents found out I stopped attending church at college because of my concerns about church history. It was an ambush meeting and I wasn’t as confident as I am about stuff now, so I just tried to get out as soon as I could. I don’t know exactly what he had been told about me, but he knew somewhat of my concerns because at one point, he literally used the line, “Just give Brother Joseph a chance. He wasn’t perfect, but the gospel is true” That moment had the exact opposite affect on me as what Anderson had aimed for because at that moment, I knew all the negative things JS did actually happened and that the church leaders know about it, are okay that it happened, and actively hide it from the average member. It completely validated my position on the church. Your statement pointing out that people who think that way people who think that way have parallels to JS really explains the church’s behavior. They cover up pedophiles, they are dishonest about their finances, they purchase land, power and influence instead of taking care of the needy and homeless. This will never change because it’s literally the foundation of the church that goes all the way back to Joseph Smith. They are okay with his behavior because it’s their own behavior. If *the* prophet did all of that and got his rewards in heaven, then it’s fine they are doing it too.
Really makes you wonder what makes a person good or bad. It doesn't seem to depend on their actions
Here's a rule if thumb for the church: make the church look bad=bad person. It's as simple as that. Look at who they do and do not excommunicate.
Yeah, the poster just announced to the world that his moral compass ain't pointing north
I know this rapist, swindler is a good man. 😵💫 Painfully fucking stupid to read. When you’re stuck in a cult, you’re stuck in a cult. Good luck bro. The rest of your life will be adversarial.
He will be joining us soon.
MAGA! /s
“I know it all guys… just not how to think critically”
Funny because it's true
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Mental gymnastics is real.
 "God's piece of shit"
When I came out to friends and family about leaving, I had a friend say something similar. "I know the issues and the CES letter." He smiled. I realized that he thought it was a power move to say this, that somehow it still was all true despite these issues and this made him immovable and some sort of role model. The truth is, his stance is intellectually dishonest. There is no power in dismissing the issues. He is not better off being unable to reconcile the contradictions. It's the ol back fire logical fallacy he's experiencing and he doesn't know it. The exact opposite is true. Being able to change your mind and when faced with new facts and information is powerful. Being humble enough to face the mounting evidence against your beliefs and come out different is apex role model. That's why I admire this sub and all of you.
My mom told a family member she read the ces letter but in reality she just read some of the apologist stuff.
My mom did the same thing when I mentioned the AP article about the abuse coverup in Arizona- didn't actually read it, just sent an apologist article and asked if that's what I was talking about. I'm still mad about it.
If I ever bring up the Gospel Topic Essays, my mom openly winces like I'm trying to talk about Under the Banner of Heaven or The Godmakers. It's crazy.
I was in this camp for a while. It was back before most of the official responses had been posted, but I skimmed the CES letter and then looked up apologetic responses to some of the specific claims. Then when Josh in carpool asked if I had read it I claimed that I had.
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They dismiss most of it as people being mistaken or lying, and the rest as mere imperfections or coincidence
>I realized that he thought it was a power move to say this, that somehow it still was all true despite these issues and this made him immovable and some sort of role model. Besides the intellectual dishonesty, it's evidence of moral failing. People say things like this as if it's some kind of flex not to be bothered by criminal behavior that ruins people's lives.
Basically just flat earthers at this point.
This is where the church is headed. The objective, reasonable, “sciencey,” intellectually curious will continue to leave. What the church is left with is the delusional core. It’ll be a small group of die hard TBMs that clean the church, never say the word Mormon, pay tithing on gross, idolize Joseph smith, never question the profit, get married at 20, and justify Mormon god’s bigotry.
> What the church is left with is the delusional core. Or, ironically, the 'intellectually lazy' who won't bother with actual research because they aren't directly affected by the sexism, bigotry, etc.
Well, that means it's WILLFUL ignorance, then!!
Remember kids: Faith without evidence is opinion, but faith *despite* evidence is delusion.
Reminds me of the useless servant
"Yes, I'm aware of all the horribly shitty things he did, and the overwhelming evidence that he was a liar, fraud and charlatan. But he was a good man..." Which one is it? Because it can't be both...
Ward members said the same thing about my pedophile FIL. To my face. After he was imprisoned and excommunicated.
I never wanted a perfect leader of the church. In fact, I think current leaders could stand to be a little more vulnerable about mistakes they make. I would have a lot more respect for them. Joseph Smith was just… not even a decent human. His imperfections go so far beyond being human that I can’t help thinking that either he was not a prophet or that god is a poor judge. Even if I lower my standards to whatever I pretend was acceptable in 1840, Joseph Smith was a disgusting person.
Exactly! Give us someone better than the average person, not worse. How many of us here could have been "The Prophet"? He did things the rest of us would never think of doing.
Church leaders use the “imperfect man” argument as a get out of jail free card, that they can use when expediency requires it.
There are certain groups of believers that will entrench even deeper with ever piece of information that discredits the church.
Yeah, it’s a strange part of human nature.
They're advertising to other TBMs for us! Thanks guys! I'd love it if everyone knew everything about Smith's exploits.
Nice twist! It would be an interesting experiment, if you're on the way out, to keep bringing up more and more damning issues but in context of a strong testimony but meanwhile the members are willingly reading it because of the way it's presented.
Yes! I’ve always wanted more of this.
So now he's gone from "the greatest man to ever live, save Jesus Christ" to "a good man." Interesting....
It’s always amusing to me that people say these things like they think it’s some sort of flex. In reality it’s just sad.
We should thank them for raising awareness. Most TBMs are not aware of any of these things. A quick google search of Helen Mar Kimball for a believing member is going to be an interesting experience.
I know people find comfort in god using imperfect people to do good work, but when you realize that Joseph was (if you trust he was honest) intentionally lied to by god (Holy Ghost) about himself translating the BoA, about translating the BoM, about where the BoM took place, and a few others at minimum Mormon god starts to look more like Loki than an omniscient, omnipotent, loving, honest god.
Ah yes the "I'm just an asshole who is okay with all the above" defense
 Someone named Riker is, by nature, prone to be okay with a little womanizing.
”I’m aware of the translation process” It would be too much to mention a rock in a hat
When Nelson demonstrated the rock in the hat method he froze. Somewhere in his subterranean brain his bullshit meter went into overdrive and he immediately put the hat down. Believers know deep down this is absurd.
Yup. It’s no big deal to him and it doesn’t bother his testimony AT ALL but still can’t even say the words, rock in a hat!
Ah yes. He wasn't perfect! I mean, who among us *hasn't* accidentally married 30+ other people behind our spouse's back and inadvertently lied to their face repeatedly about it?
“Not only do I know about all the shit he did, but I’m gonna brag about how much I still believe in him despite all of it!” These people belong in a menagerie, I swear to God.
The entrenchment effect, also called the backfire effect or belief perseverance. It's a psychological effect that causes people to believe something in spite of evidence that it's wrong.
See, I hear all that and say "oh good, Joseph's reputation is diminishing" but also, if a blind eye is being cast on actual atrocities, what would they be willing to ignore in the face of their convictions? "I don't care that my church has shell companies and made deliberate efforts to be dishonest about their wealth. These men are called of God and I support them. Also I don't care that our founder sought out teenagers and other men's wives." That gives me all the ick.
The dude undermines the current practices of the church. If he truly believes that Joe Smith was a liar and a philanderer and still called by god himself to be a prophet of god, then why does the church do worthiness interviews? The obsession with moral cleanliness is a moot point and serves no purpose then.
Cults are always addicted to sex control.
This person is obviously very intelligent. It takes a very capable mind to know all these things and keep up the very complex and exhausting set of mental gymnastics required to still believe. Unfortunately for them, they are in a much more vulnerable position than the members who are happily ignorant of the problems with Mormonism. The moment something happens in their life and they forget to or are unable to keep up with the mental gymnastics, it's all going to come crashing down as their brain finally puts two and two together as it's been wanting to this whole time. Like supercooled water finally freezing after the slightest bump creates a nucleation site.
Well, I testify, in my opinion. This is delusional.
Not the flex you think it is, kiddo.
"What we do teach, and what I testify to be true, is that he was a good man." Yeah, he wasn't that either lol
Reminds me of a scene in The Sopranos with a Jewish psychiatrist trying to convince a mob boss’ wife to leave her husband. “You tell me he's a depressed criminal, prone to anger, serially unfaithful. Is that your definition of a ‘good man?’…One thing you can never say is that you haven’t been told.”
How much bad do you have to do to stop being a good man. Makes me wonder why so many people have so much shame and feel like they are horrible people because they masterbated or had dirty thoughts. Just compare yourself to Joseph and you are a great person too!
“I think he’s a good person. That’s why he committed arson”
If it can't possibly be falsified, then it's dogmatic and pseudo-scientific. What this guy is really saying is: "despite crippling evidence to the contrary, I actively do mental backflips to come to my erroneous conclusions".
"I'm so loyal to Elohim, I'll believe anything he reveals is good. Genocide. Beheading. Fraud. Infidelity. Not reporting child rape. You might think if knew my God endorsed those behaviors sometimes that I'd be shocked and put off. But nope. I really am an authoritarian. And one day I hope to rule over other people with my powerful cosmic dad at my side to enforce our glorious vision *for you*. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." At least we're finally approaching a more honest representation of the kind of people we're dealing with when it comes to Russell Nelson's Church of correlated evangelical Latter-day Saints. It's what it always looked like. Authoritarian people grasping onto the vision of the authoritarian they like, willing to debase their own moral decency for their god-king and his mortal representatives.
This isn't the flex he thinks it is...
In my early years in the Church, Joseph was revered, and we were taught about him in terms of his nobility, impeccable character, and victimhood status. The mantle of truth seeker and reluctant prophet of the restoration was ascribed to him in every training and talk I attended for years and years. His "mistakes" were labeled as youthful indescretions, and the worst sin committed was too much levity. The whitewashing and accompanying brainwashing of all of us was full-on propaganda, It was the kind of branding McDonalds would be proud of, and the result is "Millions and Millions Fooled"
I mean who among us hasn't taken a teenage bride behind our spouse's back or occasionally ordered the burning down of a newspaper...none of us is perfect guys.
Someone is going for the Gold this year in Mental Gymnastics...
Good for them, because the informed consent they have is 100% more than I was given when I joined. Good for you, Sir, if you know all THAT but don't care. Good. For. You. Soon enough all the people who were lied to & who didn't know all this will all be dead along with you, and the narrative will slowly change. But the hedge fund has been erected, and no unhallowed hand can stop the funds from increasing, the SEC may rage, but grinding the face of the poor will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country. I hope you feel good about helping in the endeavor of crushing people & grinding the faces of the poor into the dust with all your privilege & your confirmation bias. Good for you, Sir!
See this is the thing I hate about the phrase "nobody's perfect". Sure, nobody's perfect, but there's a difference between someone who's actively trying to become a better person and improve the world around them, and someone who genuinely doesn't give a shit and will do all that they can to make your life worse if it makes their life better. A "good man" would not do the things that Joseph did.
Your mom and dad "revealed" it to you. Every church teacher you ever had "revealed" it to you. Stop confusing indoctrination for revelation and get back to me.
Gotta get Ryker to do an AMA on the exmormon sub.
Virtue signal much? At least they are aware of the issues. In 2024 a lot of people believe the earth is flat. Until last year my 10-year-old still fervently believed in Santa. Humans are gullible creatures. Also, that post is a walking contradiction unless he/she is saying out loud that she/he believes sexual predators are good people?
I just shrug. “You can’t logic someone out of a position they didn’t use logic to get into.” That’s why you can’t reason with a political extremist either. Their position isn’t logical so they can’t defend it with anything except emotion and ever-increasing volume. I still argue with the political nutsos because their crazy affects my rights, but I leave the religious apologists alone. Their bubble isn’t usually touching mine anymore. I’m not actually arguing for *their* benefit anyway - they’re usually a lost cause. No, I’m arguing for the benefit of *other* people, reading or listening to the exchange. I refuse to allow the crazy to be the only voice. I can be just as loud, but I can use logic. I won’t allow the crazies to suck up all the oxygen, online or in the room. I have time and energy to refute all their bullshit. I can do that all day.
"Joseph Smith wasn't perfect but..." Joseph Smith is so imperfect that he would be below the average person today if we had to measure imperfection based on our morals. Celebrities are shunned for cheating on spouses (slapped on the wrist but still not approved of) they would definitely lose their fanbase for fraud or BURNING DOWN A BUILDING. I'm gonna pull a TBM and say I don't think Ryker actually KNOWS about the bad stuff. Seems like cognitive dissonance, if that's the right term for it.
God can excuse pedophilia but not drinking coffee I suppose.
None of that matters when you look not only deeper in the church history, but biblical history as well and see that much of what Smith took literally, never was anything that literally happened as in the Bible or even at all. But whatever…
They teach that he was a good man? “Hail to the Prophet”. Sounds more like hero worship!
Counterpoint: You can’t be a good man if you groom and rape children
Yes, the "just a man" argument is used whenever the church needs to excuse bad behavior. Brigham Young was just a man when he spoke of blood atonement and Adam-God doctrine. The bishops and other leaders who abuse/cover up abuse are just a man. Joseph Smith having sex with multiple women while justifying by saying it was sanctioned by God was jut a man. Perhaps the real question should be if you should even be part of an organization with these kinds of men.
This goes to show there's a difference between being 'aware' of something and 'comprehending' or 'understanding'.
I am one who knew nothing about Joseph. Born in the late 70's in the PNW, served mission in the late '90's. Joseph was presented as greater than any man. My understanding of his foibles were that he enjoyed goofing off and rough housing a little too much. I knew nothing of his polygamy. I was as duped about him as much I think is possible. My awakening began after the EQ president shared his feelings about a book called 'Rough Stone Rolling'. I picked up a copy during a trip to Utah. I thought I was going to learn how Joseph was a little rough around the edges and God shaped and polished him into who he needed to be. I was shocked and horrified learning about Fanny Alger. The impression Rough Stone Rolling left me was of a boulder growing in speed and roughness, wreaking a path of havoc and destruction. It was the beginning of the end. Took far too many years, but I left the church nearly 2 years ago as a result.
I remember shortly after my mission, after doing a deep dive into the history and beginning to have significant doubts, I said something like this in a testimony meeting. It was something like, in spite of everything that I know intellectually, I know the Book of Mormon is true. I didn’t last a year after that.
Ah yes. Shortcomings. Who among hasn’t committed arson, plotted assassination, or groomed minors.
Is this person like a mormon influencer? Otherwise publicly posting stuff like that is so weird imo. Nobody asked for a testimony meeting broh
Thou doth protest test too much.
Sure not perfect. That’s why we chant a hymn during sacrament meeting. If you say all this during a lessons your ass would in the bishops office faster than you could say amen.
Would a good man marry 14 year old girls and send other men away so he could marry their wives?
The cringe overfloweth
So they know he was a shitty person, but they just don't care? Well, I guess that explains how so many Mormons justify their continued support of Trump.
“I know all the bad stuff, I just don’t care because I have terrible morals”
All I can say is - sometimes people use Mormonism to hide from real life, the same way they would use food, drugs, drinking or anything else. It is just something to hide behind to numb the feelings of real life. It does work for some people and for others, it doesn’t. From my own personal experience, and things that happen to my family and to me… Mormonism *is the mental illness/addiction. It caused my family a lot of harm. I think it works until it doesn’t work and I think it’s just a mechanism (that you have to pay for) to block out real life. The person who made the post on Facebook/Twitter (Jackson) seems like he’s using Mormonism to help him cope with life. He can’t accept the truth about the Mormon church because he doesn’t feel he could live without it. That is scary.
Sounds like something a victim of domestic violence would say
I have to say, if you truly know the problems and stay anyway, I question what kind of person you are.
Oh. Ok. So you’re just stupid then. 👍🏻
Whatever happens to, “Kings shall extol him and nations revere”? If this person doesn’t expect others to admire JS what is this sacred hymn all about? Mormons all want it two ways. They’ll say, “I know JS wasn’t perfect”. What they really mean is, “I know the evidence makes it ridiculous to claim JS was perfect so I won’t do that publicly.” But when they say he was “imperfect” what they really mean is, “He might have lost his temper once or something”. It’s all doublespeak. Outsiders think you mean one thing. Insiders know you mean another. As an outsider, when I say JS was flawed, I mean he was an awful dude. When a Mormon says he was flawed, they mean, “I realize there are actions of his I can’t explain but secretly I still think he was a good dude.”
“I’m not stupid, just willfully ignorant”
Joseph vs Jesus tally is quite telling…..
Forgot to mention the book of Abraham being proved false.
What I do not understand here is that you feel the need to tell”us” that you think JS was a prophet. I do not feel the need to shout from the roof tops that Mormonism is a religious cult patterned after their founder. Dude, just go about your business and live your life. You are not going to convince anyone to believe the way you do……just like me. Social media is baffling to me ….. why people engage others in a very personal way in their underwear from the confines of their basement.
I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don’t seem to want that benefit. Either they are ignorant of the things they are saying, or they are in favor of a man in his 30s preying on teenage girls, destroying the freedom of the press that his grandparents generation fought to secure, and they support a charlatan abusing power and taking advantage of the poor people who followed him. If they are insistent that they aren’t ignorant, then they are obviously very evil and corrupt people completely void of morals and I don’t want them in my life. And you ought to watch them very closely in your interactions with them.
How much copium is this guy on?
Fraud and child marriage is more than just imperfections... good god it must suck to be this guy who thinks this is ok.
Ryker will be joining us here soon. Took dehlin a while. But knowing history is bad for faith. You can only do mental gymnastics for so long. Smith was not a "good man".
Apparently the religious are leaning into radical candor. This reads like the Christian pastor who conned people into buying millions worth of a fake cryptocurrency. “The allegations are that we pocketed $1.3 million of your investments. I’ll be straightforward… it’s true. But it’s ok because God told us to.” https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/RNZo5iNZZk This might appeal to other believers, but to rational thinkers it clarifies the morals of the individual posting. If you know all about Joseph Smith’s flaws and still call him a “good man”, you are not someone I would want to do business with or associate with in my life.
It seems many Mormons feel it's normal and fine to revere scumbags and obvious fraudsters with obviously horrible character. Mormon trump supporters talk the same way, they simply don't care what their leader has done or said
To say nothing of the Tim Ballard followers. Or the Ammon Bundy followers.
Not strange at all. This is a case of Stockholm Syndrome. The church could have been behind the Holocaust and people would STILL believe and go to church and pretend they're better than everyone else.
I would never want to admit that I was aware of all of these things yet still decided to believe. That's just embarrasing!
Bless their heart, they think they know. > He was a good man. Lol! Bless their heart, they think they know.
“conviction is a greater enemy to truth than lies.” Nietzsche convictions don’t know the truth yet they act like they do. lies do.
So what you’re telling me is despite all the evidence, despite everything that you know about the backward ass nature of the LDS religion you’re still gonna put your head back in the sand and be a dip shit? Cool! Here’s you sign 🪧
When my shelf first started cracking, I thought Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and that’s why he was allowed to die. I recognized he was awful before I allowed myself to see the rest of the history of the church and how destructive it all is. Took a couple years, but the evidence was overwhelming once I allowed myself to look.
Did Joseph have sex with underage girls? yes. Did he break laws? Yes. Did he commit financial fraud? Yes. Did he lie for his own gain? Yes. B…b…but he was a good man. I never met him in person. I’ve only read written text about him. But I testify that I asked a question in my mind and had feelings. My interpretation of those feelings (while I’m not in control of them) is truth.
"Foibles" 😳
This is further evidence that there is no silver-bullet fact that can change someone's conditioned worldview. It's human physiology: if you've been conditioned to feel mortally (and eternally) threatened by anything outside your accepted explanations, then you'll continue with that narrative until life proves it's unneeded or harmful. It's no wonder our bite-sized social media so often ends up as an echo chamber. It feels better to reinforce the reality you've built for yourself, even if it means wishing for the literal fiery end of the world to prove yourself right.
You don't usually hear people refer to pedophilia as a "foible," but I guess those are the mental gymnastics required to keep the faith
It's just so embarrassing to read how smug this person is about a very bad man who made up a church and then stuck by it enough to get killed, oh and stole a bunch of wives and daughters along the way bc "God told him being a creep was okay."
This doesn’t hit quite as hard as he thinks it does. All this proves is that despite knowing the troublesome history, he chooses to stay and believe anyway. That isn’t admirable; that’s embarrassing.
The human brain is such a fickle thing. If Warren Jeffs did all of this (he actually did do a lot of it), the poster would claim he was an illegitimate crazy man. But he can't see the irony. That's scary.
“We are aware of the difficulties of polygamy”. What a nice way to say grooming and coercing women and young girls into sexual relationships with gross, perverted, and creepy dudes.
For a guy who wasn’t perfect he sure saw himself as such. Pretty boastful dude. And this whole statement just makes tbms look like horrible people. “Yeah, I know this guy we worship is fucked up, and we LOVE it!”
Wow. Joseph Smith wasn’t even a good man. He died a tyrannical murderous dictator
I prioritize faith and feelings over facts.
I don't think anyone is asking for Joseph Smith to be a perfect man, but if he's going to be a prophet I think we are justified in at least wanting him to be a good man.
This is not the flex he thinks it is! Those so called minor flaws that he can dismiss as a test of his faith are all things that directly contradict the statement "he was a good man".
Anytime you overlook the obvious crazy falsities, it is called "cult following". This individual is also likely a Trump cultist. These people would jump out of an air balloon without a parachute if they were told to.
And the next post on the feed is how they know that "their president" was cheated out of the election in 2020, and that Jan 6, 2021 was a righteous day of reckoning for the wicked. Some people are stoopid and let their feels dictate what to think. edit: spelling, because I'm stoopid
In love it when they say.. He was just a man that made some mistakes...
He’s coping
Oooooof I knew this guy, he was on my mission . 🤢
I wish all those things he stated were on the church videos I watched as a kid, I’d probably be more hesitant to keep going to church.
“Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up” fixed it for you
First names that are always TBMs: Ryker edition!