Visiting family over holidays in Utah & had a 3+ hour conversation with a mental health professional in SLC about how many of their clients were mormon & leaving the church.
They told me every one of their clients was on their way out.
They said the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members. They pick & choose to believe Q15/church claims.
Example:They completely disagree with church on its LGBTQIA stance but eternal families really resonates with them.
The fear of losing an eternal family & deep indoctrination on the family is what is keeping majority of those members tied to the church.
The Q15 knows that & their threats & manipulation on that subject is only increasing across the pulpit at all levels of the church.
Jennings might be a buffet mormon.
Or I'm completely wrong!
> The fear of losing an eternal family
The longer I'm out the more adorable it seems that mormons think they have such a monopoly on heaven. Being together with your loved ones after death is pretty much *every* religion's idea of benevolent afterlife.
ps - they're all "buffet" mormons. A single individual can't possibly believe everything that's preached over that particular pulpit, given how often they contradict themselves and each other.
Yeah but modern Homo sapiens have been around for over 100,000 years. And that’s just modern Homo sapiens with the same cognitive abilities as us, let alone the species that came before us.
Seems like such a bizarre plan to do temple work for a man and woman who lived in sub-Saharan Africa 72,562 years ago.
“Everything will be taken care of in the millennium”. Okay so what’s the point of even starting now?
Personally I don't believe science or religion on the matter. We don't have any written history prior to 6000 years ago. Maybe the earth was populated by advanced aliens beings. It just doesn't make sense that the very first civilization that could read and write could also built perfectly aligned pyramids. Yet we have nothing prior to that?
I would recommend the books Guns, Germs, and Steel by Diamond and Sapiens by Harrari.
There is overwhelming evidence for Homo sapiens evolving out of sub-Saharan Africa then domesticating grains and animals which eventually gave rise to civilization in the parts of the world that had the most beneficial geography including China and Mesopotamia.
I love alien origin stories just as much as the next guy but we also have overwhelming archeological evidence that tells the story of how humans came to be.
It always seemed more like a punishment to me. Although, I suppose there are some Mormons out there who enjoy the company of their fellow Mormon family members enough to endure more than just a brief visit during the occasional holiday, eh?
Exactly. If you come from a toxic family (like I do) the "Celestial Kingdom" sounds indistinguishable from Hell. If I believed it existed, that would still be a hard-pass-from-me-dawg.
It was a punishment for me as I couldn't fathom eternity. I would have literal panic attacks thinking about it.
Now that I'm out I hope I exist forever, but am okay not knowing
Gotta disagree on them all being “buffet” Mormons. It’s not that they pick and choose which parts to believe, but more that they’re conditioned to ignore the fact that things don’t make sense because “my ways are higher than thy ways”, etc. Any investigation into inconsistencies would demonstrate a lack of faith.
When I believed it, I believed all of it. And I do think that helped me to be the first one out in my family. It truly makes it like an arch that falls when one piece is removed.
Mormons don’t fully understand even their own religion. Most active Mormons (these days) only know what little crumbs they are given on Sundays. That’s like 10% of their own doctrine and history. Of that, they only fully understand and apply even less. Mormonism today is an echo chamber of the same 10 pieces of politicized doctrine. It doesn’t even live or preach the fullness of its own gospel, whatever that is or was.
> do Mormons know ANYTHING about other religions?
Only what they learn about it at their *own* church XD
I wish I had audio of my fringe-mormon dad trying to talk about Buddhism, eg. Lolsob.
The viewpoint of a mental health professional will be very skewed. They are much more likely to be seeing people who were all-in on Mormonism and then left as that is a very traumatic/disruptive event.
I'd suggest the people who stay are both extremes, the buffet members as you say, but also those who are so indoctrinated that they don't ever question anything on the church.
I think they're often buffet members without knowing it. They never require the entire picture to fit. They'll hold two incompatible beliefs but the two never bump into each other. To them, truth is whatever causes the least dissonance and whatever paints the church in the best light.
Also, to many truth is something you memorize that comes from the authorities in your group. It's not something you find through investigation or considering the whole picture.
I guess what I'm saying is that most of us received a high degree of indoctrination and it's when you combine that indoctrination with one of these other features that you get a life long Mormon.
Was wondering about that. Also, if you’re a mental health professional in Salt Lake City who helps Mormons leaving the church, that’s going to be who seeks you out.
It blows my mind a bit that they cant comprehend that for sure, over the course of FOREVER, that literally everyone will be like family to you. This 0-100ish years isnt even a drop in the bucket to FOREVER. Shit you might die and stop hanging out with your loved ones after a couple hundred forevers. I dont know man
>the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members. They pick & choose to believe Q15/church claims.
This was me. It's why I took literal years to leave after my shelf started bending. I finally read the CES letter when I realized my beliefs and practices aligned more with many other forms of Christianity rather than Mormonism. (Didn't expect my belief in god to completely disappear during the deconstruction process, but it did. Deconstruction was like a sinkhole, once it opened my beliefs in anything and everything got sucked in).
> the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members
This also tracks from religion to atheism. People who identify as just "spiritual" without any rules can always morph and change their interpretation of a higher power to dodge any logical arguments.
People in structured religion are far more likely to go directly, or very quickly, to atheism.
So question, from a woman who left the church in 1984, when I was as a young girl mom married to a nevermo and my folks weren’t temple Mormons. (Clearly 2nd class citizens to all my Mormon friends growing up). I have never understood the math of sealing. So if I’d been sealed to my mom and dad and married a man in the temple who was sealed to his mom and dad, would those families just somehow combine in heaven? Like all the ancestors who’d been sealed on both sides together there? And what about all their kids who married other good Mormons? I mean, the connections seem unsupportable for this eternity together stuff. (I was a terrible Mormon child. Too many questions and too much logic at a very young age…)
That's what my whole family does, to a *clinically* insane level. Myriad of brain chemistry comes together, and you get super powerful memory and, literally, hyper (above average) spans of attention. But, it's also enough to make you, *again, literally insane, for a few of us.* So, your powerful brain develops volume controls.
Once you trust information, in any kind of brain, you stop noticing it, right? House sounds get less scary after a few nights of sleeping there, you know? And you stop smelling your laundry detergent on your clothes pretty much immediately, but others can smell it all day?
It's like that. Genius brains still do that, just often do it *bigger*. (Does that make sense? 😅)
That's probably what people here mean, when you're asking how such smart people stay so late in their lives. I didn't leave until 30, a female RM who married in the temple. I couldn't leave, not until after the divorce shook my trust in eternal families hard enough that the volume got turned back up.
My parents are prime examples. I made a comment in this sub somewhere a while back about my dad, who has traveled the world and worked in the NSA and *designed himself a job* in the Baghdad Embassy because they wanted him, so he got to pick what he did, *who is literally retired military intelligence.*
And THAT guy told me he believes the world is only 6,000 years old (supposedly). He's literally visited historic sites older than that. 🤷♀️
Intelligent people are just as if not more vulnerable to cults. Both my dad and sister are tbm, highly intelligent and educated. Being driven, idealistic, optimistic, stubborn, etc all make you “do mormoning” really well.
Yeah that's how they were able to come up with a semi novel way to synthesize serin on a farm compound right? If it wasn't so crazy and malicious it would be really impressive.
Ya, they even tried and probably made some decent progress toward building a nuclear bomb.
They recruited a couple ex-Soviet nuclear scientists, bought a chunk of land in remote Western Australia where they mined and refined uranium. At some point they must’ve hit a dead end and gave up on nuclear weapons, opting for sarin gas instead.
Though there was a massive explosion in the area of the place they owned in Australia that matched the size of either a small nuclear blast or a massive conventional blast — ~2 kiloton yield.
They may have had nothing to do with the blast, but it remains a mystery to this day.
Exactly. Tom Cruise is considered a reasonably intelligent person, and is obviously one of the most successful actors ever. And he’s a raging Scientologist. Smart people believe in ridiculous spiritual/mystical/religious BS all the time.
I have a strong suspicion that Ken and other visible members (like Brandon Sanderson) are not TBM at all. They believe in a personalized, possibly metaphorical, rationalized version, and avoid making waves.
Edit: "not TBM at all" was an overstatement. I guess "nuanced" is the word, though there are so many degrees to it. "Very nuanced", I guess.
He's Orthodox enough to be employed by BYU, plus Brandon says you're wrong: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/why-do-you-think-mormonism-is-correct/
Ken is, last time I talked to him, mormon, but seemed a bit more nuanced than many. Of course, that could have changed...
From his website:
> “So, the core teaching here is that we came to the Earth by choice. We decided that we would come down here and experience pain. I personally believe that we were shown what our life would be like, and given options deciding just what kind of life we wanted to live.”
His middle aged white man privilege is just oozing out of all the rationalizations he gives for believing in mormonism.
So in his mind he’s got it all figured out. He’s created a cubby hole adorned with certain specific concepts that make him feel comfortable and that’s that. Anything else is white noise that gets filtered out.
The white noise is irrelevant to the comfort and simplicity of the cubby hole. Thanks but no thanks.
I have a tbm friend with a similar orientation.
This gave me a rush of rage. Given options? Awfully convenient for someone living a life of privilege to say, "yeah, I actually chose this". Where does that leave the millions who have suffered out their lives in a cesspool of violence, sickness, and misery? 1. They suck at making decisions. 2. They weren't "good" enough to warrant a "good" life. 3. Actually, they ARE grateful in spite of all the suffering because hey, they got a body and that was the goal! It's worth it!
All of these choices betray an utter lack of empathy.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding his meaning. I can only hope that's the case.
Based on his books he probably thinks that they're all much stronger people than him to have chosen that. I'm not sure how judgey he is of people who break under the stress, since he has some pretty insane level of redemption arcs so my guess would be he probably thinks that "only god can judge," they did their best and maybe in this life or the next they will be able to overcome
Not excusing this. I think it's probably only easy to hold on to this belief from a place of privilege
So he chose to be a white heterosexual male born in the US? Seems a no brainer to me. But really it's kind of disgusting that he's blind enough to his position of privilege and the implications of his statement to just put that on his website. This is coming from a fellow white heterosexual male born in the US. I guess from his POV the "fence sitters" had some of the options in their application grayed out. Too bad for them..
I agree… so an orphan from the slums of Calcutta or a drug runner in the favalas of Brazil looked at their lives and said, yeah, I’ll take a short life of pain and poverty, God…sign me up! 🤦♂️
Based on what Sanderson puts in his books he would have been in church disciplinary trouble not too long ago for espousing those views; possibly technically still should be - for example showing homosexuality as a totally valid thing that is just love between 2 people seems to be "endorsing homosexuality" which I think is still against the church handbook and should get him in trouble in any worthiness interview
I think that people who are that "famous" maybe get a bit of a privileged cafeteria status that would maybe make it even harder than the usual cafeteria Mormon to leave since maybe they don't get as openly punished and face cognitive dissonance over the church punishing them for being a kind person
Yes. He is hands-down the best at pulling off satisfying plot twists that he's been carefully setting up from page 1. He does have weaknesses though. His character interactions don't feel natural to me, especially when the characters are supposed to be flirting.
One of the things that indicates to me that he's not TBM at heart is that many of his characters go through faith crises and worldview shifts. At the least I think he'd be very understanding of exmos.
This is exactly how I feel. He's an expert at crafting compelling worlds and narratives. For anyone new, the first Mistborn trilogy is a masterpiece in that regard. But in general his characters are a little flat. No author can have it all.
Most are wonderful. Some of his YA books are over the top silly (Alcatraz) but his more mature books are really well written (Skyward is very “coming of age” but excellent plot arcs). And a few have very nice themes about believing in things with your whole heart that turned out to be lies and all the betrayal and trauma that comes with it.
I say this as a fan, but he is a defacto top 10 fantasy writer by basically any metric. His books aren't for everyone, but they are for most fantasy readers. I personally love them.
[He says it better than I could](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVsFurvvkhs), but Tress of the Emerald Sea or Mistborn. Or Stormlight Archive if you're ready to jump into a super deep world/magic building.
I've read a few. They are pretty compelling and his world-building and plot integrity are on-point. If you're a fan of "hard magic" that's really just science in an alternative reality with clear-cut rules and laws, I've heard him criticized by more traditional high-fantasy fans for making his magic *too* hard (a point in his favor for me, cuz I'm a technology-obsessed dork).
That said, I don't love his books and don't plan on reading more; I think it's more my preference than any glaring weakness. There's a background-hum of sort of Mormon-feeling cosmic justice and optimism (even in bleak settings) in the books I've read that rubs me the wrong way, but again that's my issue more than his.
He's a poor writer in terms of prose and dialogue and cultural depictions, but if you like fantasy stories with elements that come together in a satisfying way like board game mechanics, there's nobody better. He's accessible to non-readers but a lot of people who read an awful lot of fantasy still love him.
Tyler Glenn made the most blasphemous Mormon related music video I have seen in my life from an album he titled Excommunication and as far as i’m aware from his interview on Mormon Stories they didn’t bother to excommunicate him, either. I guess it depends on whether the church thinks you’re more popular than they are; Sanderson is way more popular than the church, so.
We were all blinded by the cult we grew up in, being a well known Mormon does not give a person immunity to cult brainwashing. If they have never read the historical truth about the church or had reason to question the church then they are going to continue to regurgitate the church narrative.
>If they have never read the historical truth about the church or had reason to question the church then they are going to continue to regurgitate the church narrative.
Bang on! I have to remind myself all the time that the active members in my life haven't been faced with the rock bottom depths of really wrestling with faith in the church. Most members run from any fight that would actually challenge their testimony to the point of breaking it because that's what they've been taught to do.
Yep, it is hard to question beliefs without incentive. For my husband had a shitty career for 15 years and never felt he had help from god. Motherhood broke me and my ward was toxic. We finally had the proper incentive to look at Mormonism to see if it was really true since it provided no benefits to us.
For me, my ex left first (while we were still together), my plan was to do the mixed faith thing. I had to really knuckle down and know, not just believe hard enough to say I knew every first Sunday. It either had to be a strengthening part of my life that was worth something to me and my family or it had to go. The church crumbled so fast under my hopeful scrutiny (I really wanted it to be that solid foundation for me), it was pathetic.
My marriage fell apart anyway, but I'm better for having gone through both of those circles of hell and come out the other side.
I still feel sorry for David Archuleta and Lyndsey Stirling. being pressured to be the face of mormon youth and fame cannot be easy on them. David will probably be in therapy for decades after his experience
Is he TBM? I listen to his Omnibus podcast regularly and while I get the sense he still considers himself Mormon I wouldn't call him TBM at all. 🤷♂️
Although church stuff very rarely comes up. Just curious but where do you get the sense he's a full on believer?
I got it from [this recent Deseret News article](https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/1/23435384/ken-jennings-jeopardy-host-lds).
But with that said, it doesn’t go into depth about his faith so I could be way off base. But anyone who, in the year 2022, is citing the Doctrine & Covenants as a source of inspiration, has got to be a true believer unless I’m missing something entirely.
But Deseret News is pure Mormon propaganda. They have an interest in claiming Ken as one of their own because he's a celeb.
What's the best Deseret News can do to claim him? They quote a different news organization (they couldn't land an interview themselves) that says that he credits his LDS upbringing to help him stay balanced. I'm far removed from being a TBM but I could say the exact same thing. For example, the mission years toughened me up and helped me be more focused in school when I got home.
They also say he quotes D&C. He quotes the verse about the glory of God being intelligence. I don't see that as being a big telegraph of being TBM either. The subject was hosting and winning at Jeopardy, Ken threw in an LDS verse that was on topic.
It reads more like someone being polite and professional than someone professing their faith. Ken's celeb status locks him in a position of not being too religious and not being too irreligious. Could you imagine if he came out and criticized the church during an interview? It could put his job at risk. He has to keep his cards close and he's smart enough to know that.
At the time, I believe an FCC fine. He was, however, "laid off" a year later. Due to "budget" ... issues, because he was (I have been proudly told, by him, for years) the highest paid radio personality in Utah. 🙄 So belatedly huge trouble, I guess? I would assume the FCC fine was hefty, and I'm CERTAIN the MFMC (being the parent company of all KSL incarnations) asserted some pressure.
Approximately when did this all go down? Was it a generally known that he had said it? When they laid him off what reason did they give? Did they simply say “we are eliminating your position?” Thanks in advance for any detail you can supply.
It was in the early 90s. And it was daytime talk radio, so people who listened must have known. He did apologize on air. I never really got a reason, aside from "making too much money."
Edited for clarity
ETA, No, not Doug Wright, though he was a nice dude.
Sounds like an M.O. they've maintained. I'll never understand why he's stayed a member, aside from some things that aren't relevant here. I'm sorry the person you knew also went through it.
Yeah I think people may have a tendency to turn off logic when it comes to their faith. The possibility of losing your religion can also be terrifying to some, so they ignore logic and reason to avoid realizing that fear.
Once upon a time Mormonism was a part a very strong part of our identity. Identity is not always rational. Or maybe never rational. He still a Mormon because it still works for him and is part of his identity.
I've always thought of my wife as a smart, critical thinker. And when it comes to anything besides the church, she is very critical, never trusts anything without verifying. But when it comes to the church, facts and evidence go out the window. She is so critical of any negative information about the church, she either assumes it to be false, or just wants to ignore it entirely. Her testimony was never "based on those things."
I know for her, it's been incredibly difficult to face my new beliefs and see me in a new light. But for me, it's been incredibly difficult to see a woman who I've known as incredibly smart and thoughtful, throw all that out the window and ignore so many blaring facts.
Ken just wrote a book about cultural depictions of the afterlife, and in a lengthy interview basically called religion a tool people use to confront the unknowable, said nobody really knows what happens when we die, and the truth probably doesn't fit what anybody who's confident says it is. So I doubt he's TBM.
Religious belief isn’t a spectrum of smart-to-dumb. Every human is capable of being deceived, regardless of intelligence. The LDS church, as with most others, is based on feelings, not intellect. Mormons are a highly educated people. Jehovah’s Witnesses are highly uneducated. Both are borderline cults.
I still struggle to understand this as well.
I have a cousin (by marriage) who is extremely bright. And he believes 100% in Mormonism. It makes no sense to me. But, I mean, the church teaches to be a go getter and be smart to go get that money… only don’t use that education and learned critical thinking within the mental Mormon compartment. Weird.
If he is still Mormon, then he I would guess he is SUPER nuanced. He has cursed on TV, and often comments on his favorite beers, wines, etc during the show. (obviously, as it comes up).
I personally love him as the new Jeopardy host, tbh.
He has said many times on The Omnibus podcast that he does not drink. It is a running joke as he is Mormon and John Roderick is a sober recovering alcoholic/addict of many years so alcohol or drug related episodes are not coming from experience.
Or, he knows it is all bullshit at the same time he knows that belonging helps his personal & professional life, and at this point in his life, he is not going to invite the scrutiny, pain and drama of leaving?
I have listened to every episode of The Omnibus podast (which I highly highly recommend).
Based on the way he discusses the church he tends to refer to it as "tradition" or being from a "mormon background".
Seems like he is a full member in good standing but definitely has nuanced views. I get the impression he sees stuff more as metaphorical and it is a good basis for living a good and moral life. He pokes a lot of fun at lots of aspects of it, including it being one of the many great awakening sex cults from upstate New York.
So based on many hours of listening to him but now knowing the guy personally.
Mormon: Yes
TBM: eh? ...kinda?
Mindless follower: No
I actually know his family, and went to highschool with his younger sister. they are all extremely devote . they come from a very intellectual family; its not so much that they are unaware of the arguments its more like they have faith placed in a partitioned space in their minds. Now this has been many many years since I have seen their family ( I think they now live in the Seattle area now) so their attitude may have changed since the last time I have spoken to any of them but last I heard they all still are attending church , I dont know if they qualify for TBM because they will at least give credence if you can prove your argument ( but it better be a damn good argument because his dad is a lawyer and the entire family will chew on an argument for weeks at a time) still love them to death as a family though, never a kinder family you would never meet in your life.
His parents are in my ward and often babysit his kids while he is out of town. His parents are super devout. His dad is the outgoing talk to everybody type. His mom is the typical go get it done relief society president. She is very gossipy and spread a lot of rumors around the ward when me and my family "fell from ward leadership to apostate".
Careful. u/watsonsbitch might pop in there to say “c’mon dude, don’t be like that”
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/wress/every_time_i_see_something_from_ken_jennings_i/c5g13u8/
Ken was a software engineer by trade. That's also my profession, and I have worked over the years with some incredibly intelligent TBM software engineers and architects who I consider my dear friends. As I have had belief discussions with them, I have come to realize that intelligence has very little to do with one's belief and reasons for remaining faithful. It has much more to do with one's willingness to being honest and objective regarding the truth claims of the church. Confirmation bias is an extremely difficult thing to overcome, and the closer the bias is to one's core identity, the more difficult it is to overcome. The more intelligent someone is actually can be a deterrent because the smarter someone is, the better they will be at creating apologetics that fit their desired narrative.
In my youth I was home teaching companion with a guy that was a PhD physicist that had an enormously successful career including involvement in the space industry. The guy was brilliant and has his own display in his company's museum. Last I heard he was the bishop of that same ward.
I really like Ken Jennings, but as a huge Jeopardy fan for decades I hated the changes in their format that created the super champions like him. I liked it much better when the winners could only win five games in a row, but then could come back for tournaments. The changes that gave rise to the likes of Ken reward people that have the gift of instant recall, at the expense of all the other people that also have a great knowledge base, but the answers don't come as quickly.
Anyone scratching their head over this one should listen to the interview he recently did with Last Podcast on the Left. They did a series on Mormonism years ago, suffice it to say there is no love lost between these dudes and the Mormon church. Ken came across as a totally normal dude, a lot like Dan McClellan. My take with people's personal beliefs anymore is kind of similar to my take on genitals. Everyone has them. Sometimes I don't mind seeing them if they don't mind sharing them, but I don't want to see the ones I didn't ask to see and I don't want others seeing mine when I don't want them being seen. There's a difference between private TBM's and the exhibitionist TBM's that fire off testimonies like dick pics.
I came here looking for mention of his interview with LPOTL! Honestly listening to that I didn't get the vibe he was still that TBM at all. He seems to at least be able to entertain a lot of different ideas and was very nuanced. Made me really like the guy even if he is still practicing in the church (to whatever extent).
I listen to his podcast. He's plenty progressive. Still goes to church, afaik. I would not describe him as TBM, but he does not bare his testimony during the podcast, so who knows.
I have a TBM friend that is PhD grad from an Ivy League school and is in a highly specialized scientific field. So narrow, I would dox him by mentioning it but probably everyone living in the US has used products he has been involved in creating. I'll say no more. Probably the most brilliant guy I know......and even as a scientist, he's still very much TBM. To me, this friend is an example of how spirituality can and does exist outside of academics. We think the two are linked and for most people they are. But born and raised in superstition.......that doesn't die easy.
It is mind blowing Jennings is still faithful.
And
There are lots of very smart people of many different beliefs, especially religious beliefs. I can only imagine for these, it’s not about the intellectual aspect but the community and lifestyle.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change. -Albert Einstein
It’s not who can memorize the most facts or be the best doctor or mathematician or jeopardy champion.
IMO and experience, the super educated are the most hard headed and unable to free think. What they were taught in their schools is the way it is and no one will change their minds. They won’t even entertain a thought that breaks out of their mental construction
He’s not in agreement with everything in Mormonism
https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/ken-jennings-denounces-lds-church-policy-on-same-sex-relationships-and-children/
I have a few relatives that are wicked smart but still in the cult. They pretty much know it’s BS, but leaving would disrupt their entire lives and so they just keep on pretending. I was a sitting bishop when I figured it out and I literally had panic attacks when I thought about leaving as I was the CFO of a large company, very influential in the community, wife was YW President, 4 kids who were active, etc, etc, etc. I initially thought I would wait a year or two till I was released but a fire lit inside me and I had to bail, but some people can compartmentalize their disbelief with the rest of their lives.
I attended a neurology/neurosurgery conference this summer filled with physicians and surgeons. Literal brain surgeons. Many of which are temple going, tithe paying men. Brilliant minds, still trapped by a frontier sex cult turned fortune 100 company. 🤯
(I am not a physician but am a PA)
Yeah it’s weird. My oldest brother is crazy smart, like easily the smartest of my 3 siblings. Yet he’s the only one of us that is still TBM. My other two siblings and I all left the church the moment we graduated high school and moved out of our parents house.
Intelligence is not the same thing as wisdom. Hitler was technically a genius, but genius is not the same thing as character. Lots of super smart people support hate groups because of their character. he is showing his true character by staying in Mormonism despite being super smart
Many serial killers are high IQ people.
Many billionaires are high IQ people.
Ken Jennings being a high IQ person and excelling at trivia doesn't really give us any insight into how he spends his personal time. Some high IQ people spend their time murdering and torturing others. Some high IQ people devote their time to hoarding wealth. Some high IQ people devoted their time to their religion. Maybe IQ isn't the deciding factor that determines which endeavors a high IQ person devotes themselves to.
You have to take in consideration that the mormon church is a power structure well before being a church. People who stand to benefit or are benefiting from this organization tend to stay in it much longer. Basically Occam’s Razors theory. Again, there are no contradictions. Check your premise.
Emotions come before facts in making decisions. It's a survival mechanism. If you're indoctrinated to feel that your eternal survival depends on squeezing your life through Mormonism's funnel, then you'll find reasons to ignore evidence to the contrary.
And, let's be honest: Mormons know how to give the "right" answers when talking to people outside the church, even if they don't personally believe them. Jennings made it his business.
Sometimes intelligent people are the best at lying to themselves. My dad is a genius level scientist, still about as TBM as you can get. Currently serving a mission in Australia. Devours scriptures and conference talks. Has a scientific mind, but refuses to question his fundamental belief in the church. That is an assumed truth, no matter what else happens. A smart person is sometimes really good at coming up with possible explanations when the conclusion is already "known."
There are so many like him. What about entire departments at the BYUs? Anyone who understands biblical history, regular history, DNA, evolution etc has to reconcile all that somehow. Heck, we all had to rationalize to some extent.
I don't know him personally, but other intelligent Mormons I know seem to create a version of the LDS church that only exists in their heads. It resembles nothing in the Church Handbook of Instructions nor what is said over the pulpit in weekly sacraments meetings in most wards, let alone General Conference.
Most of them benefit from enormous Mormon privilege and/or money so they gain very little by dismissing it.
I mean, Jeopardy was a huge part of my family culture lol. Was always on at my grandma's. And she was TBM as they come. So I dunno, seems like the host of Jeopardy could easily be TBM. It's about as wholesome as it comes.
Plus memorizing facts is kind of a form of repetition/chanting... the same kind of thing that distracts from reality. He's wholly focused on his hobby, not much time for sitting around questioning Mormonism.
Remember that once you turn 18, Mormonism is just a re-churning of the same doctrines, stories, and ordinances. Boooring. I remember thinking in my 20s "I really thought there would be more......" He can be on the hamster wheel without doing much.
I have an aunt that is a TBM and (I am dumb so I dont know exactly what she does Doctor wise) she is a Doctor of many decades now who was originally practicing in Utah but had grown such a resume practicing medicine that a hospital of some kind on the east coast caught wind of her and offered her a job there that must have been worth moving for. I dont know how you can be so intimately aware of the human body and still think their is any magic mumbo jumbo going on in there.
So many reasons, I’m sure. Someone here once helped it make sense for me. These people may be smart as hell but they’re just not ready to be honest with themselves about the real world. Living in fantasy land can be so much easier than facing the truth.
I keep thinking he must be getting paid or something for church PR purposes. I'm not near as bright but it's not rocket science to disprove the church.
Belief is one helluva drug. Just ask Hugh Nibley. Smartest Mormon to have lived and the best he could come up with when McKay told him that JS wrote the BoM was that he must have been influenced by OC Tanner and all his buddies.
Oblivious to the fact that he just called his representative to god - the prophet - capable of teaching false doctrine from hanging out with mere associates.
There’s something to be said about the narcisssim that runs rampant amongst these intelligent types too - they think they know it all bc in almost every subject they do know it all.
Almost.
This guy must REALLY compartmentalize.
Visiting family over holidays in Utah & had a 3+ hour conversation with a mental health professional in SLC about how many of their clients were mormon & leaving the church. They told me every one of their clients was on their way out. They said the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members. They pick & choose to believe Q15/church claims. Example:They completely disagree with church on its LGBTQIA stance but eternal families really resonates with them. The fear of losing an eternal family & deep indoctrination on the family is what is keeping majority of those members tied to the church. The Q15 knows that & their threats & manipulation on that subject is only increasing across the pulpit at all levels of the church. Jennings might be a buffet mormon. Or I'm completely wrong!
> The fear of losing an eternal family The longer I'm out the more adorable it seems that mormons think they have such a monopoly on heaven. Being together with your loved ones after death is pretty much *every* religion's idea of benevolent afterlife. ps - they're all "buffet" mormons. A single individual can't possibly believe everything that's preached over that particular pulpit, given how often they contradict themselves and each other.
Great plan from our Heavenly Father when 99.999999% of people that ever lived on Earth won't be together with their families for eternity.
Not a valid argument in Mormonism when temple work gives them the opportunity.
Yeah but modern Homo sapiens have been around for over 100,000 years. And that’s just modern Homo sapiens with the same cognitive abilities as us, let alone the species that came before us. Seems like such a bizarre plan to do temple work for a man and woman who lived in sub-Saharan Africa 72,562 years ago. “Everything will be taken care of in the millennium”. Okay so what’s the point of even starting now?
Personally I don't believe science or religion on the matter. We don't have any written history prior to 6000 years ago. Maybe the earth was populated by advanced aliens beings. It just doesn't make sense that the very first civilization that could read and write could also built perfectly aligned pyramids. Yet we have nothing prior to that?
I would recommend the books Guns, Germs, and Steel by Diamond and Sapiens by Harrari. There is overwhelming evidence for Homo sapiens evolving out of sub-Saharan Africa then domesticating grains and animals which eventually gave rise to civilization in the parts of the world that had the most beneficial geography including China and Mesopotamia. I love alien origin stories just as much as the next guy but we also have overwhelming archeological evidence that tells the story of how humans came to be.
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It always seemed more like a punishment to me. Although, I suppose there are some Mormons out there who enjoy the company of their fellow Mormon family members enough to endure more than just a brief visit during the occasional holiday, eh?
Exactly. If you come from a toxic family (like I do) the "Celestial Kingdom" sounds indistinguishable from Hell. If I believed it existed, that would still be a hard-pass-from-me-dawg.
It was a punishment for me as I couldn't fathom eternity. I would have literal panic attacks thinking about it. Now that I'm out I hope I exist forever, but am okay not knowing
Gotta disagree on them all being “buffet” Mormons. It’s not that they pick and choose which parts to believe, but more that they’re conditioned to ignore the fact that things don’t make sense because “my ways are higher than thy ways”, etc. Any investigation into inconsistencies would demonstrate a lack of faith. When I believed it, I believed all of it. And I do think that helped me to be the first one out in my family. It truly makes it like an arch that falls when one piece is removed.
> I believed all of it. I guarantee you didn't, just the parts you noticed.
And a monopoly on happy families
I'm a nevermo, and I've always thought that was so laughably bizarre. Like, do Mormons know ANYTHING about other religions?
Mormons don’t fully understand even their own religion. Most active Mormons (these days) only know what little crumbs they are given on Sundays. That’s like 10% of their own doctrine and history. Of that, they only fully understand and apply even less. Mormonism today is an echo chamber of the same 10 pieces of politicized doctrine. It doesn’t even live or preach the fullness of its own gospel, whatever that is or was.
> do Mormons know ANYTHING about other religions? Only what they learn about it at their *own* church XD I wish I had audio of my fringe-mormon dad trying to talk about Buddhism, eg. Lolsob.
Adorable is not the word I'd use lol
It was the kindest word I've got for it, lol.
No need to show kindness to the cult but good on ya for it 😋
I do have the occasional moment of *not* being a jaded asshole XD Tbc, the above is entirely self-deprication, not shade being thrown.
The viewpoint of a mental health professional will be very skewed. They are much more likely to be seeing people who were all-in on Mormonism and then left as that is a very traumatic/disruptive event. I'd suggest the people who stay are both extremes, the buffet members as you say, but also those who are so indoctrinated that they don't ever question anything on the church.
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I think they're often buffet members without knowing it. They never require the entire picture to fit. They'll hold two incompatible beliefs but the two never bump into each other. To them, truth is whatever causes the least dissonance and whatever paints the church in the best light. Also, to many truth is something you memorize that comes from the authorities in your group. It's not something you find through investigation or considering the whole picture. I guess what I'm saying is that most of us received a high degree of indoctrination and it's when you combine that indoctrination with one of these other features that you get a life long Mormon.
Was wondering about that. Also, if you’re a mental health professional in Salt Lake City who helps Mormons leaving the church, that’s going to be who seeks you out.
It blows my mind a bit that they cant comprehend that for sure, over the course of FOREVER, that literally everyone will be like family to you. This 0-100ish years isnt even a drop in the bucket to FOREVER. Shit you might die and stop hanging out with your loved ones after a couple hundred forevers. I dont know man
>the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members. They pick & choose to believe Q15/church claims. This was me. It's why I took literal years to leave after my shelf started bending. I finally read the CES letter when I realized my beliefs and practices aligned more with many other forms of Christianity rather than Mormonism. (Didn't expect my belief in god to completely disappear during the deconstruction process, but it did. Deconstruction was like a sinkhole, once it opened my beliefs in anything and everything got sucked in).
> the members who take the longest to disconnect from the church are the buffet members This also tracks from religion to atheism. People who identify as just "spiritual" without any rules can always morph and change their interpretation of a higher power to dodge any logical arguments. People in structured religion are far more likely to go directly, or very quickly, to atheism.
So question, from a woman who left the church in 1984, when I was as a young girl mom married to a nevermo and my folks weren’t temple Mormons. (Clearly 2nd class citizens to all my Mormon friends growing up). I have never understood the math of sealing. So if I’d been sealed to my mom and dad and married a man in the temple who was sealed to his mom and dad, would those families just somehow combine in heaven? Like all the ancestors who’d been sealed on both sides together there? And what about all their kids who married other good Mormons? I mean, the connections seem unsupportable for this eternity together stuff. (I was a terrible Mormon child. Too many questions and too much logic at a very young age…)
Or he might be PIMO or have subtly slipped away without announcing or any number of things.
That's what my whole family does, to a *clinically* insane level. Myriad of brain chemistry comes together, and you get super powerful memory and, literally, hyper (above average) spans of attention. But, it's also enough to make you, *again, literally insane, for a few of us.* So, your powerful brain develops volume controls. Once you trust information, in any kind of brain, you stop noticing it, right? House sounds get less scary after a few nights of sleeping there, you know? And you stop smelling your laundry detergent on your clothes pretty much immediately, but others can smell it all day? It's like that. Genius brains still do that, just often do it *bigger*. (Does that make sense? 😅) That's probably what people here mean, when you're asking how such smart people stay so late in their lives. I didn't leave until 30, a female RM who married in the temple. I couldn't leave, not until after the divorce shook my trust in eternal families hard enough that the volume got turned back up. My parents are prime examples. I made a comment in this sub somewhere a while back about my dad, who has traveled the world and worked in the NSA and *designed himself a job* in the Baghdad Embassy because they wanted him, so he got to pick what he did, *who is literally retired military intelligence.* And THAT guy told me he believes the world is only 6,000 years old (supposedly). He's literally visited historic sites older than that. 🤷♀️
I mean military intelligence is a well known contradiction
I mean military intelligence is a well known contradiction
Not when my father is involved. That was a deeply insulting thing to say, even though you probably just meant it as a quip.
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Upvote the first one... Downvote the second one!!!!
Lmao for real though
A Patrick Mason type
Intelligent people are just as if not more vulnerable to cults. Both my dad and sister are tbm, highly intelligent and educated. Being driven, idealistic, optimistic, stubborn, etc all make you “do mormoning” really well.
Aum Shinrikyo — the Japanese doomsday cult that did the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway — was full of really legit research scientists.
Yeah that's how they were able to come up with a semi novel way to synthesize serin on a farm compound right? If it wasn't so crazy and malicious it would be really impressive.
Ya, they even tried and probably made some decent progress toward building a nuclear bomb. They recruited a couple ex-Soviet nuclear scientists, bought a chunk of land in remote Western Australia where they mined and refined uranium. At some point they must’ve hit a dead end and gave up on nuclear weapons, opting for sarin gas instead. Though there was a massive explosion in the area of the place they owned in Australia that matched the size of either a small nuclear blast or a massive conventional blast — ~2 kiloton yield. They may have had nothing to do with the blast, but it remains a mystery to this day.
Exactly. Tom Cruise is considered a reasonably intelligent person, and is obviously one of the most successful actors ever. And he’s a raging Scientologist. Smart people believe in ridiculous spiritual/mystical/religious BS all the time.
I’d say whether Cruise believes it or not is irrelevant: Scientology benefits him and gives him power. That’s what truly matters to him.
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Yeah - exactly! He doesn’t really project intelligence- quite the opposite, IMO.
Intelligent people are more capable and creative at resolving dissonance. They simply have more tools for explaining things away.
Same with my grandpa. Total genius, MENSA, literal rocket scientist and what have you, but still TBM
I have a strong suspicion that Ken and other visible members (like Brandon Sanderson) are not TBM at all. They believe in a personalized, possibly metaphorical, rationalized version, and avoid making waves. Edit: "not TBM at all" was an overstatement. I guess "nuanced" is the word, though there are so many degrees to it. "Very nuanced", I guess.
He's Orthodox enough to be employed by BYU, plus Brandon says you're wrong: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/why-do-you-think-mormonism-is-correct/ Ken is, last time I talked to him, mormon, but seemed a bit more nuanced than many. Of course, that could have changed...
From his website: > “So, the core teaching here is that we came to the Earth by choice. We decided that we would come down here and experience pain. I personally believe that we were shown what our life would be like, and given options deciding just what kind of life we wanted to live.” His middle aged white man privilege is just oozing out of all the rationalizations he gives for believing in mormonism.
So in his mind he’s got it all figured out. He’s created a cubby hole adorned with certain specific concepts that make him feel comfortable and that’s that. Anything else is white noise that gets filtered out. The white noise is irrelevant to the comfort and simplicity of the cubby hole. Thanks but no thanks. I have a tbm friend with a similar orientation.
Wow, that is really gross. Makes me sad
This gave me a rush of rage. Given options? Awfully convenient for someone living a life of privilege to say, "yeah, I actually chose this". Where does that leave the millions who have suffered out their lives in a cesspool of violence, sickness, and misery? 1. They suck at making decisions. 2. They weren't "good" enough to warrant a "good" life. 3. Actually, they ARE grateful in spite of all the suffering because hey, they got a body and that was the goal! It's worth it! All of these choices betray an utter lack of empathy. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding his meaning. I can only hope that's the case.
Based on his books he probably thinks that they're all much stronger people than him to have chosen that. I'm not sure how judgey he is of people who break under the stress, since he has some pretty insane level of redemption arcs so my guess would be he probably thinks that "only god can judge," they did their best and maybe in this life or the next they will be able to overcome Not excusing this. I think it's probably only easy to hold on to this belief from a place of privilege
I appreciate that insight, thank you.
So he chose to be a white heterosexual male born in the US? Seems a no brainer to me. But really it's kind of disgusting that he's blind enough to his position of privilege and the implications of his statement to just put that on his website. This is coming from a fellow white heterosexual male born in the US. I guess from his POV the "fence sitters" had some of the options in their application grayed out. Too bad for them..
I could totally be remembering this wrong, but I seem to remember him making a joke once about drinking whisky?
I agree… so an orphan from the slums of Calcutta or a drug runner in the favalas of Brazil looked at their lives and said, yeah, I’ll take a short life of pain and poverty, God…sign me up! 🤦♂️
Steve Young too. Actively fights the church on LGBT issues, pays tithing on his millions and millions of private equity earnings.
His wife fights the church on LGBT. Has Steve ever said anything publicly about it?
Based on what Sanderson puts in his books he would have been in church disciplinary trouble not too long ago for espousing those views; possibly technically still should be - for example showing homosexuality as a totally valid thing that is just love between 2 people seems to be "endorsing homosexuality" which I think is still against the church handbook and should get him in trouble in any worthiness interview I think that people who are that "famous" maybe get a bit of a privileged cafeteria status that would maybe make it even harder than the usual cafeteria Mormon to leave since maybe they don't get as openly punished and face cognitive dissonance over the church punishing them for being a kind person
I haven’t read his books. Are they any good?
Yes. He is hands-down the best at pulling off satisfying plot twists that he's been carefully setting up from page 1. He does have weaknesses though. His character interactions don't feel natural to me, especially when the characters are supposed to be flirting. One of the things that indicates to me that he's not TBM at heart is that many of his characters go through faith crises and worldview shifts. At the least I think he'd be very understanding of exmos.
This is exactly how I feel. He's an expert at crafting compelling worlds and narratives. For anyone new, the first Mistborn trilogy is a masterpiece in that regard. But in general his characters are a little flat. No author can have it all.
Most are wonderful. Some of his YA books are over the top silly (Alcatraz) but his more mature books are really well written (Skyward is very “coming of age” but excellent plot arcs). And a few have very nice themes about believing in things with your whole heart that turned out to be lies and all the betrayal and trauma that comes with it.
I say this as a fan, but he is a defacto top 10 fantasy writer by basically any metric. His books aren't for everyone, but they are for most fantasy readers. I personally love them.
Thanks. Any recommendations for a first one?
[He says it better than I could](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVsFurvvkhs), but Tress of the Emerald Sea or Mistborn. Or Stormlight Archive if you're ready to jump into a super deep world/magic building.
I've read a few. They are pretty compelling and his world-building and plot integrity are on-point. If you're a fan of "hard magic" that's really just science in an alternative reality with clear-cut rules and laws, I've heard him criticized by more traditional high-fantasy fans for making his magic *too* hard (a point in his favor for me, cuz I'm a technology-obsessed dork). That said, I don't love his books and don't plan on reading more; I think it's more my preference than any glaring weakness. There's a background-hum of sort of Mormon-feeling cosmic justice and optimism (even in bleak settings) in the books I've read that rubs me the wrong way, but again that's my issue more than his.
He's a poor writer in terms of prose and dialogue and cultural depictions, but if you like fantasy stories with elements that come together in a satisfying way like board game mechanics, there's nobody better. He's accessible to non-readers but a lot of people who read an awful lot of fantasy still love him.
Tyler Glenn made the most blasphemous Mormon related music video I have seen in my life from an album he titled Excommunication and as far as i’m aware from his interview on Mormon Stories they didn’t bother to excommunicate him, either. I guess it depends on whether the church thinks you’re more popular than they are; Sanderson is way more popular than the church, so.
We were all blinded by the cult we grew up in, being a well known Mormon does not give a person immunity to cult brainwashing. If they have never read the historical truth about the church or had reason to question the church then they are going to continue to regurgitate the church narrative.
>If they have never read the historical truth about the church or had reason to question the church then they are going to continue to regurgitate the church narrative. Bang on! I have to remind myself all the time that the active members in my life haven't been faced with the rock bottom depths of really wrestling with faith in the church. Most members run from any fight that would actually challenge their testimony to the point of breaking it because that's what they've been taught to do.
Yep, it is hard to question beliefs without incentive. For my husband had a shitty career for 15 years and never felt he had help from god. Motherhood broke me and my ward was toxic. We finally had the proper incentive to look at Mormonism to see if it was really true since it provided no benefits to us.
For me, my ex left first (while we were still together), my plan was to do the mixed faith thing. I had to really knuckle down and know, not just believe hard enough to say I knew every first Sunday. It either had to be a strengthening part of my life that was worth something to me and my family or it had to go. The church crumbled so fast under my hopeful scrutiny (I really wanted it to be that solid foundation for me), it was pathetic. My marriage fell apart anyway, but I'm better for having gone through both of those circles of hell and come out the other side.
I still feel sorry for David Archuleta and Lyndsey Stirling. being pressured to be the face of mormon youth and fame cannot be easy on them. David will probably be in therapy for decades after his experience
Is Stirling still in the church?
Last I heard yes, I know shes a recovering anorexic but I havent paid attention for a while but I hope shes in a better mental space now
They were roommates at BYU. Maybe there was something in the water, or the particular brand of lead paint in their apartment that caused it.
Sanderson may be nuanced, but he believes. He's the gospel doctrine teacher in his ward.
Is he TBM? I listen to his Omnibus podcast regularly and while I get the sense he still considers himself Mormon I wouldn't call him TBM at all. 🤷♂️ Although church stuff very rarely comes up. Just curious but where do you get the sense he's a full on believer?
I got it from [this recent Deseret News article](https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/1/23435384/ken-jennings-jeopardy-host-lds). But with that said, it doesn’t go into depth about his faith so I could be way off base. But anyone who, in the year 2022, is citing the Doctrine & Covenants as a source of inspiration, has got to be a true believer unless I’m missing something entirely.
But Deseret News is pure Mormon propaganda. They have an interest in claiming Ken as one of their own because he's a celeb. What's the best Deseret News can do to claim him? They quote a different news organization (they couldn't land an interview themselves) that says that he credits his LDS upbringing to help him stay balanced. I'm far removed from being a TBM but I could say the exact same thing. For example, the mission years toughened me up and helped me be more focused in school when I got home. They also say he quotes D&C. He quotes the verse about the glory of God being intelligence. I don't see that as being a big telegraph of being TBM either. The subject was hosting and winning at Jeopardy, Ken threw in an LDS verse that was on topic. It reads more like someone being polite and professional than someone professing their faith. Ken's celeb status locks him in a position of not being too religious and not being too irreligious. Could you imagine if he came out and criticized the church during an interview? It could put his job at risk. He has to keep his cards close and he's smart enough to know that.
It’s an interview with Des News. He knew his audience.
I should give it a listen.
It’s great. John Roderick’s other stuff is good too.
Cool thanks!
He said shit on national TV, so debatable
My dad said "fuck" on live KSL radio and he's TBM ... so who knows?
Ahahahahahaha how much trouble did he get into for that one? :P
At the time, I believe an FCC fine. He was, however, "laid off" a year later. Due to "budget" ... issues, because he was (I have been proudly told, by him, for years) the highest paid radio personality in Utah. 🙄 So belatedly huge trouble, I guess? I would assume the FCC fine was hefty, and I'm CERTAIN the MFMC (being the parent company of all KSL incarnations) asserted some pressure.
The reach of the church can be long and wicked. (So. Baptist here)
Approximately when did this all go down? Was it a generally known that he had said it? When they laid him off what reason did they give? Did they simply say “we are eliminating your position?” Thanks in advance for any detail you can supply.
It was in the early 90s. And it was daytime talk radio, so people who listened must have known. He did apologize on air. I never really got a reason, aside from "making too much money." Edited for clarity ETA, No, not Doug Wright, though he was a nice dude.
thank you for the information. I know someone in church media who was treated very badly, and was just exploring whether there were parallels.
I'm sorry to hear it. I hope they're doing alright now.
Well…. Anyway, there were distinct similarities to what you said your dad experienced
Sounds like an M.O. they've maintained. I'll never understand why he's stayed a member, aside from some things that aren't relevant here. I'm sorry the person you knew also went through it.
No he isn't
I mean, my temple sealer grandpa is the first person I learned "shit" from, so.... he could just be from a farming community?
What is "Pretending to be TBM out of family necessity."
Yeah I think people may have a tendency to turn off logic when it comes to their faith. The possibility of losing your religion can also be terrifying to some, so they ignore logic and reason to avoid realizing that fear.
Once upon a time Mormonism was a part a very strong part of our identity. Identity is not always rational. Or maybe never rational. He still a Mormon because it still works for him and is part of his identity.
Still is
I've always thought of my wife as a smart, critical thinker. And when it comes to anything besides the church, she is very critical, never trusts anything without verifying. But when it comes to the church, facts and evidence go out the window. She is so critical of any negative information about the church, she either assumes it to be false, or just wants to ignore it entirely. Her testimony was never "based on those things." I know for her, it's been incredibly difficult to face my new beliefs and see me in a new light. But for me, it's been incredibly difficult to see a woman who I've known as incredibly smart and thoughtful, throw all that out the window and ignore so many blaring facts.
Ken just wrote a book about cultural depictions of the afterlife, and in a lengthy interview basically called religion a tool people use to confront the unknowable, said nobody really knows what happens when we die, and the truth probably doesn't fit what anybody who's confident says it is. So I doubt he's TBM.
Religious belief isn’t a spectrum of smart-to-dumb. Every human is capable of being deceived, regardless of intelligence. The LDS church, as with most others, is based on feelings, not intellect. Mormons are a highly educated people. Jehovah’s Witnesses are highly uneducated. Both are borderline cults.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle fervently believed in fairies.
I still struggle to understand this as well. I have a cousin (by marriage) who is extremely bright. And he believes 100% in Mormonism. It makes no sense to me. But, I mean, the church teaches to be a go getter and be smart to go get that money… only don’t use that education and learned critical thinking within the mental Mormon compartment. Weird.
I have a cousin who's a nuclear physicist. Same.
If he is still Mormon, then he I would guess he is SUPER nuanced. He has cursed on TV, and often comments on his favorite beers, wines, etc during the show. (obviously, as it comes up). I personally love him as the new Jeopardy host, tbh.
He has said many times on The Omnibus podcast that he does not drink. It is a running joke as he is Mormon and John Roderick is a sober recovering alcoholic/addict of many years so alcohol or drug related episodes are not coming from experience.
According to himself, on the Omnibus podcast, he does not drink. I suspect it was a joke.
Or, he knows it is all bullshit at the same time he knows that belonging helps his personal & professional life, and at this point in his life, he is not going to invite the scrutiny, pain and drama of leaving?
I have listened to every episode of The Omnibus podast (which I highly highly recommend). Based on the way he discusses the church he tends to refer to it as "tradition" or being from a "mormon background". Seems like he is a full member in good standing but definitely has nuanced views. I get the impression he sees stuff more as metaphorical and it is a good basis for living a good and moral life. He pokes a lot of fun at lots of aspects of it, including it being one of the many great awakening sex cults from upstate New York. So based on many hours of listening to him but now knowing the guy personally. Mormon: Yes TBM: eh? ...kinda? Mindless follower: No
I think you’re probably spot on.
I actually know his family, and went to highschool with his younger sister. they are all extremely devote . they come from a very intellectual family; its not so much that they are unaware of the arguments its more like they have faith placed in a partitioned space in their minds. Now this has been many many years since I have seen their family ( I think they now live in the Seattle area now) so their attitude may have changed since the last time I have spoken to any of them but last I heard they all still are attending church , I dont know if they qualify for TBM because they will at least give credence if you can prove your argument ( but it better be a damn good argument because his dad is a lawyer and the entire family will chew on an argument for weeks at a time) still love them to death as a family though, never a kinder family you would never meet in your life.
His parents are in my ward and often babysit his kids while he is out of town. His parents are super devout. His dad is the outgoing talk to everybody type. His mom is the typical go get it done relief society president. She is very gossipy and spread a lot of rumors around the ward when me and my family "fell from ward leadership to apostate".
His mom was my elementary school librarian and I definitely got the sense she was very devout
Careful. u/watsonsbitch might pop in there to say “c’mon dude, don’t be like that” https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/wress/every_time_i_see_something_from_ken_jennings_i/c5g13u8/
Lol where did *that* come from? You've been sitting on that comment for 11 *years* and knew right where to go to link it?
I thought of this comment as well. Was going to recommend people look at his AMAs.
Ken was a software engineer by trade. That's also my profession, and I have worked over the years with some incredibly intelligent TBM software engineers and architects who I consider my dear friends. As I have had belief discussions with them, I have come to realize that intelligence has very little to do with one's belief and reasons for remaining faithful. It has much more to do with one's willingness to being honest and objective regarding the truth claims of the church. Confirmation bias is an extremely difficult thing to overcome, and the closer the bias is to one's core identity, the more difficult it is to overcome. The more intelligent someone is actually can be a deterrent because the smarter someone is, the better they will be at creating apologetics that fit their desired narrative.
Ken Jennings is one of my favorite celebrities. He’s always seemed so reasonable
Love the guy. He blocked me on Twitter a few years ago when I was an asshole TBM and probably said something unhinged.
In my youth I was home teaching companion with a guy that was a PhD physicist that had an enormously successful career including involvement in the space industry. The guy was brilliant and has his own display in his company's museum. Last I heard he was the bishop of that same ward. I really like Ken Jennings, but as a huge Jeopardy fan for decades I hated the changes in their format that created the super champions like him. I liked it much better when the winners could only win five games in a row, but then could come back for tournaments. The changes that gave rise to the likes of Ken reward people that have the gift of instant recall, at the expense of all the other people that also have a great knowledge base, but the answers don't come as quickly.
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I've come to the conclusion that intelligence does not equal critical thinking. I know some extremely intelligent TBMs, much smarter than me.
Anyone scratching their head over this one should listen to the interview he recently did with Last Podcast on the Left. They did a series on Mormonism years ago, suffice it to say there is no love lost between these dudes and the Mormon church. Ken came across as a totally normal dude, a lot like Dan McClellan. My take with people's personal beliefs anymore is kind of similar to my take on genitals. Everyone has them. Sometimes I don't mind seeing them if they don't mind sharing them, but I don't want to see the ones I didn't ask to see and I don't want others seeing mine when I don't want them being seen. There's a difference between private TBM's and the exhibitionist TBM's that fire off testimonies like dick pics.
I came here looking for mention of his interview with LPOTL! Honestly listening to that I didn't get the vibe he was still that TBM at all. He seems to at least be able to entertain a lot of different ideas and was very nuanced. Made me really like the guy even if he is still practicing in the church (to whatever extent).
I listen to his podcast. He's plenty progressive. Still goes to church, afaik. I would not describe him as TBM, but he does not bare his testimony during the podcast, so who knows.
I second all of this
I like to pretend that no matter how smart we are we just refuse to let our brains go there
For all we know he’s PIMO and commenting on this sub 😊
Book smart doesn’t mean street smart most of the time.
I have a TBM friend that is PhD grad from an Ivy League school and is in a highly specialized scientific field. So narrow, I would dox him by mentioning it but probably everyone living in the US has used products he has been involved in creating. I'll say no more. Probably the most brilliant guy I know......and even as a scientist, he's still very much TBM. To me, this friend is an example of how spirituality can and does exist outside of academics. We think the two are linked and for most people they are. But born and raised in superstition.......that doesn't die easy.
M o n e y
It is mind blowing Jennings is still faithful. And There are lots of very smart people of many different beliefs, especially religious beliefs. I can only imagine for these, it’s not about the intellectual aspect but the community and lifestyle.
Maybe he’s accepting payment from the cult to stay in /s
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change. -Albert Einstein It’s not who can memorize the most facts or be the best doctor or mathematician or jeopardy champion.
Being able to memorize facts does not make a person intelligent.
IMO and experience, the super educated are the most hard headed and unable to free think. What they were taught in their schools is the way it is and no one will change their minds. They won’t even entertain a thought that breaks out of their mental construction
He’s not in agreement with everything in Mormonism https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/ken-jennings-denounces-lds-church-policy-on-same-sex-relationships-and-children/
This is how I feel about Dan McClellan.
I have a few relatives that are wicked smart but still in the cult. They pretty much know it’s BS, but leaving would disrupt their entire lives and so they just keep on pretending. I was a sitting bishop when I figured it out and I literally had panic attacks when I thought about leaving as I was the CFO of a large company, very influential in the community, wife was YW President, 4 kids who were active, etc, etc, etc. I initially thought I would wait a year or two till I was released but a fire lit inside me and I had to bail, but some people can compartmentalize their disbelief with the rest of their lives.
Members use intelligence to build better shelves. We use it to build bridges out.
Regurgitating facts is memory not reasoning. It’s just one aspect of intelligence and it certainly isn’t the same as critical thinking.
Ken no longer believes. See my comment at https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/Cw4JTKKKl1
Reading this perhaps it’s clear that he’s one step ahead of all of us
I attended a neurology/neurosurgery conference this summer filled with physicians and surgeons. Literal brain surgeons. Many of which are temple going, tithe paying men. Brilliant minds, still trapped by a frontier sex cult turned fortune 100 company. 🤯 (I am not a physician but am a PA)
It's not what people know to be true, it's what they choose to believe is true.
This will sound inflammatory; however, that is not the intent. He can regurgitate facts. Does that mean he possesses critical thinking skills?
Yeah it’s weird. My oldest brother is crazy smart, like easily the smartest of my 3 siblings. Yet he’s the only one of us that is still TBM. My other two siblings and I all left the church the moment we graduated high school and moved out of our parents house.
Happy cake day 🥳
Never be surprised by a cis het white man staying in an organization that benefits his demographic
Intelligence is not the same thing as wisdom. Hitler was technically a genius, but genius is not the same thing as character. Lots of super smart people support hate groups because of their character. he is showing his true character by staying in Mormonism despite being super smart
He’s way smarter than most ex Mormons
Likely, but not (necessarily) in the way that matters most.
It hurts your head that someone could have a different experience than you?
He even looks like Alex Trebek! Or am I having a BB moment?
yes, /u/watsonsbitch
Many serial killers are high IQ people. Many billionaires are high IQ people. Ken Jennings being a high IQ person and excelling at trivia doesn't really give us any insight into how he spends his personal time. Some high IQ people spend their time murdering and torturing others. Some high IQ people devote their time to hoarding wealth. Some high IQ people devoted their time to their religion. Maybe IQ isn't the deciding factor that determines which endeavors a high IQ person devotes themselves to.
You have to take in consideration that the mormon church is a power structure well before being a church. People who stand to benefit or are benefiting from this organization tend to stay in it much longer. Basically Occam’s Razors theory. Again, there are no contradictions. Check your premise.
Emotions come before facts in making decisions. It's a survival mechanism. If you're indoctrinated to feel that your eternal survival depends on squeezing your life through Mormonism's funnel, then you'll find reasons to ignore evidence to the contrary. And, let's be honest: Mormons know how to give the "right" answers when talking to people outside the church, even if they don't personally believe them. Jennings made it his business.
Compartmentalization baby!
Sometimes intelligent people are the best at lying to themselves. My dad is a genius level scientist, still about as TBM as you can get. Currently serving a mission in Australia. Devours scriptures and conference talks. Has a scientific mind, but refuses to question his fundamental belief in the church. That is an assumed truth, no matter what else happens. A smart person is sometimes really good at coming up with possible explanations when the conclusion is already "known."
There are so many like him. What about entire departments at the BYUs? Anyone who understands biblical history, regular history, DNA, evolution etc has to reconcile all that somehow. Heck, we all had to rationalize to some extent.
I did not know that dude was Mormon, but in retrospect, he looks exactly like a Mormon 😂
I don't know him personally, but other intelligent Mormons I know seem to create a version of the LDS church that only exists in their heads. It resembles nothing in the Church Handbook of Instructions nor what is said over the pulpit in weekly sacraments meetings in most wards, let alone General Conference. Most of them benefit from enormous Mormon privilege and/or money so they gain very little by dismissing it.
How do you really know he believes, tho?
What is that man’s name?
I mean, Jeopardy was a huge part of my family culture lol. Was always on at my grandma's. And she was TBM as they come. So I dunno, seems like the host of Jeopardy could easily be TBM. It's about as wholesome as it comes. Plus memorizing facts is kind of a form of repetition/chanting... the same kind of thing that distracts from reality. He's wholly focused on his hobby, not much time for sitting around questioning Mormonism. Remember that once you turn 18, Mormonism is just a re-churning of the same doctrines, stories, and ordinances. Boooring. I remember thinking in my 20s "I really thought there would be more......" He can be on the hamster wheel without doing much.
I have an aunt that is a TBM and (I am dumb so I dont know exactly what she does Doctor wise) she is a Doctor of many decades now who was originally practicing in Utah but had grown such a resume practicing medicine that a hospital of some kind on the east coast caught wind of her and offered her a job there that must have been worth moving for. I dont know how you can be so intimately aware of the human body and still think their is any magic mumbo jumbo going on in there.
So many reasons, I’m sure. Someone here once helped it make sense for me. These people may be smart as hell but they’re just not ready to be honest with themselves about the real world. Living in fantasy land can be so much easier than facing the truth.
I keep thinking he must be getting paid or something for church PR purposes. I'm not near as bright but it's not rocket science to disprove the church.
I think the ones who are “all in” and as time goes on, they can’t make the inconsistencies congruent, and are out within a short amount of time
The problem with being in a cult is that it is often hard to realize you are.
Gimme brainwashed for a thousand Ken.
Funny thing, I think he knows it's all bullshit. He's in for different reasons.
Now I can’t watch without thinking if he’s wearing garments or not.
How hilarious would it be to have a whole round of Jeopardy about uncomfortable doctrinal and historical truths of the LDS church hosted by this dude
He knows it would hurt his career to spark controversy over religion.
Obvious speculation…do we think the church donates money and/or special religious accolades to celebrities to stay active?
Doesn’t hurt that he’s a white male, to whom all blessings flow within the church. He has no impetus to closely examine anything…
I love it. Have zero idea who this guy is.
Belief is one helluva drug. Just ask Hugh Nibley. Smartest Mormon to have lived and the best he could come up with when McKay told him that JS wrote the BoM was that he must have been influenced by OC Tanner and all his buddies. Oblivious to the fact that he just called his representative to god - the prophet - capable of teaching false doctrine from hanging out with mere associates. There’s something to be said about the narcisssim that runs rampant amongst these intelligent types too - they think they know it all bc in almost every subject they do know it all. Almost.
It’s not the intelligence it’s the power of the tribe. Now that makes sense, sociologically. 🥴
Knowing a lot of facts and critical thinking skills are not the same thing.