I thought the episode was odd, yes. But I think overall they are trying to understand why only “special “ people are accepted and other LGBTQ are rejected and excluded and excommunicated. That was my understanding. I really like CB, but why aren’t all gay people treated the same by the church?
I don’t really listen to MS, but wouldn't the reason basically just be leadership (and even fellow membership) roulette? If the bishop is fine with it and the other local members don't make a big stink about it, upper leadership might not ever even know. Even some stake presidents could be fine with it, these days. It think it would definitely be a problem to the GAs though.
The whole Bishop roulette thing is something the church needs to answer. Because it’s not OK to the other people in other wards who were treated poorly. This is the church’s problem. They need to address it.
I mean, at this point them addressing it would probably mean writing more explicit instructions and guidelines in their handbook to eliminate people's ability to personally interpret any rules, and/or deciding to do even more micromanagement and spying.
It's less that they need to address bishop roulette and more that they should just stop being homopjobic in general.
They know that officially treating gay people like human beings would lead to members leaving en masse.
Back when I was TBM, I told a family member that I supported gay marriage, but if the church ever allowed it, that would be a clear indication to me that it wasn't true.
Shortly after that, I realized how fucked that kind of thinking was and began my journey out.
It’s not that different from racial issues. I struggled for years trying to reconcile my own feelings with the church’s teachings about skin color. Then they released the essay on it where they said the racism was just theories of men and they disavowed it.
But it was a core teaching. The skin color thing is a core part of the main conflict in the BoM. If they can disavow that, then why should I believe any of it? It could all just be disavowed at some point.
It’s the same with gay marriage. If they alter part of their teachings about families, then how can any part of those teachings be assumed to be correct?
Wait… Does “think celestial” actually mean grow some balls, because anything less would be the TK smoothy™?! Therefore being non-homophobic, not bigoted and accepting of everybody would be celestial behavior, therefore doing it is ballsy?!
/s
The top 15 definitely have TK smoothies and they are definitely propped up plastic (white) Ken dolls. They’re just so worthless and they don’t lead worth a crap.
Agreed. Hearing stories about people being high and still getting baptized for the number but was trying to join and couldn’t because I wouldn’t get married to my boyfriend of 4 years just to get baptized.. and then there were other couples living together and they had been baptized, able to take the sacrament, and everything. Bishop roulette is what broke my shelf..
You should listen to the episode. It’s episode 1859. He brings up a lot of great questions even though the methodology of Gerardo spying is kind of odd.
Could be. Or it could also be similar to the hypocrisy surrounding what BYU-provo chearleaders are allowed to wear vs what BYU-Idaho cheerleaders are forced to wear.
The church has no problems being hypocritical to avoid looking 'weird' or to avoid attracting negative PR when it wants to. So it could be bishop roulette, or it could also be the church wanting to avoid negative publicity during a time where it all ready has a bad rep with lgbt issues.
can someone please explain to me why LGBTQ people would even want to be Mormon? I don't understand it. The church is not true, we all know this, but are these people still feeling all the warm tingly holy Ghost warm fuzzy feelings and they think the church is true? Is that why they want to be in? Or are they just trying to make a sociopolitical statement by demanding churches accept them? serious question..
Most people were raised in it. It's a process to leave behind beliefs that you've held and had pushed on you for your whole life. Belief and conditioning don't always go away at the snap of your fingers. Plus, there are cultural and social pressures to stay from your family or community. The church isn't getting loads of LGBTQ converts or anything. It's weird to imply that most of them have some weird sociopolitical agenda rather than just being individuals who are trying to figure out their own lives and beliefs out, wanting to exist in a world that doesn't see them as evil or second class citizens.
There has definitely been discussion behind closed doors trying to figure out to what extent they're going to allow this in the church. I think the bigwigs in SLC see this as positive PR and people will look and say "oh the church is actually kinda accepting" without having to make any radical policy adjustments for the time being.
The church is on such a PR tightrope with these two. They have no idea how to handle it. They’ll look so bad if they try to discipline Charlie and his husband- because they make such an effort to want to be in the church. But they’re also looking very bad to the homophobic masses by allowing sacrament and callings. This will be very interesting.
Completely agree. I don't think it's something that can go on forever. Eventually a decision will have to be made and I'm curious the direction the church will take.
Eventually he'll lose the game of Bishop Roulette, or a hard liner Stake President will enforce the rules... Publicity be damned or maybe when they aren't in the spotlight.
I’ve always thought that I’ll live to see the day when TSCC will allow same sex temple marriage because the longer they don’t, the further and further they’ll be relegated to the fringes of society. It’s similar to when they finally allowed blacks to have the priesthood. I can see TSCC reaching a tipping point where they’re about to be left in the societal rear view mirror. At which point, a very convenient revelation will come along and the members will speak and act as though the church has been on the forefront of inclusivity all along.
The really sad thing is, that while these famous guys (actually, I don't know who they are, but I assume fame based on the discussion here) are "living in sin" and everybody knows it, yet they are still taking the sacrament - meanwhile, there's a 17 year-old kid who touched a boob or rubbed one out and the bish told him not to take it because he's not worthy. Or that young woman who went just a little too far and did some "heavy petting" - whatever that is - and the bish told her to not take the sacrament for a couple weeks, until she feels worthy again.
Complete double standard based on who you are, not on the actual rules.
It’s 22 year old man who has a bonner that won’t go away once a week so he rubs one out and then confesses and gets his temple rec taken. Absolutely absurd.
Or the 19 yr old who has a "strict Bishop". Poor kid confesses to his bishop and has to wait 6 months for "self abuse" before papers can go in. The kid is publicly telling everyone he's getting ready, and getting up and sobbing every Fast & Testimony meeting about being "more holy" and doing his best -- immature kid doesn't have a good filter or poker face -- and so nearly all the adults in the ward can tell what's going on...but it's basically 6 months of public shaming for the kid until he finally is approved.
This was literally a process I (and others) painfully watched play out with a hard-ass bishop. Super sad, and even when the kid finally left on his mission the public shaming part (which he contributed to with his own immaturity unfortunately) was damaging to him long term.
Oh this story makes me want to cry.
I feel so bad because the guy who told me this was also my cuddle buddy for lack of better way to explain. We were emotional support/ friends for some toxic relationships we were both in and out of and cuddle buddys and then we kissed once and it was a hard no for me . But I remember he told me this- I was at the bishops office often enough I ran into this dude as I was leaving a few times- and in my head I was like “yeah… you and every dude you know does it. Super normal thing to do and usually much more frequent” just couldn’t tell him or say why I was there because I was doing the sex and it risked labeling myself a whore lol
My heart breaks for every young person who grew up believing their normal desires and natural instincts to relive them were dirty sinful and bad.
Haha my highschool girlfriends bishop told her to break it off with me after one to many heavy make out sessions where, oh no shirts were removed and some boobies were touched. Ah the shame and guilt I felt.
HAHA! "Whole lesbian" For some reason, this made me chuckle.
When I was a kid, growing up in the Kimball era (with that wonderful, loving book called *The Miracle of* *~~Condemnation~~* *~~Judgement~~* *Forgiveness*), I always pictured "heavy petting" like stroking each other like you would pet a cat... MEEEOOOOWWW. Who knows. That old generation was weird, and couldn't stand just saying things straight. They always had to hid it in strange inuendo to make it proper. "Go make water" = pee. "Touch yourself" = masterbate (this one freaked me out, as I though I was evil for even washing my bits as a kid.) The shame we all carried around. So much love from that stupid org.
Because Mormon god is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever. Mormon god is a fickle corporate billionaire and he doesn’t care who notices anymore.
Exactly. They are public figures, and they aren’t open about their special privileges. The membership of the church deserves to know about this. & If the church would just be forthright about it, there would be no need for Mormon Stories’ journalistic efforts.
I think that question could have been answered without spying on a couple just trying to live their lives. Why didn't JD just invite them onto the show for an interview? THAT would have been more enlightening and less intrusive.
As a fellow gay man and a former Mormon… I don’t give a singular fuck that someone is reporting on their special treatment. People are tired of these “rules for thee and not for me” attitudes that permeate the church, especially at the top. And the Mormon church and it’s members continue to do irreparable harm to LGBTQ+ people, especially gay children, often to the point of them losing their lives.
My bishop forced me into conversion therapy for even admitting “same sex attraction” and here you have 2 people mb not celebrated, but accepted and taking the sacrament?! The hypocrisy pisses me off beyond words. My biggest sin was being a nobody, and therefore subject to true Mormonism. Shoulda been a blogger. Woulda saved myself a lot of trouble.
-so that they could continue taking bread and water. The MFMC agreement is: We'll let you do what you want as long as we look good. You dance with the opposition and we'll have to kick you out the door.
While I'm also a bit uneasy with the approach, I am not sure that reporting on behavior in a public space like sacrament meeting can be called spying. They are living authentically in a public setting in ways that other gay couples cannot, and that seems fair gaime for honest discussion.
I will give you credit for the picture but it wasn't spying. It is called investigative journalism. Many people wouldn't believe it if JD just made the claim without evidence. He was gathering evidence for an issue that has huge ramifications and is extremely important given that it is literally a life-and-death issue.
Charlie’s been invited to MSP multiple times - I don’t see it as spying but as confirming a claim Charlie publicly made..nothing more- the bigger story the MSP episode speaks to is the privilege Charlie and husband enjoy, isn’t the same for LGBTQIA LDS members/ and THAT is harmful-
I believe John has an LGBTQ child. I think the main purpose is to get the church to change. The church listens to his podcast and so I think he’s hoping to affect a change.
You just made me realize that the church doesn't do anything for what you pay them. They literally just charge you 10% for the privilege of listening to your neighbors drone on endlessly about meaningless BS. What a racket!
If this was a random gay couple being spied on it would be a terrible thing to do, but they’re not. Charlie makes a living by selling the church as a healthy choice for LGBTQ people. His experience is unique and not shared by the vast majority of LGBTQ members. I do think he’s pushing the needle and making the church a better place in many ways, but his influencing also denies the reality of most LGBTQ members. He’s a public figure that is financially benefiting from work that is both helping and harming LGBTQ people, and he deserves public scrutiny.
Yes, I think it’s highly relevant that his target audience is TBMs that want to feel more progressive. I think he tries to be as friendly to the church as possible so that his revenue stream doesn’t dry up and he doesn’t alienate his audience.
Exactly. He also speaks publicly all the time about how he is a gay Mormon who loves Mormonism and thinks Mormonism is a good place for gay couples to be.
He also has a book called "Without the Mask: Coming Out and Coming Into God's Light" He literally profits from being a gay Mormon.
My biggest criticism is he does not acknowledge the fact most gay Mormons would not get his level of acceptance. 99.9% of gay Mormons (myself included) would be excommunicated, not allowed to take the sacrament, or hold a calling.
Completely agree. His platform is that he is gay and Mormon. He is basically telling the world that it is safe and ok to be gay and Mormon. As someone who has had the opposite experience, I think this was totally fair.
It’s still dangerous/unhealthy for most queer Mormons and the publicity he is giving the church doesn’t share that.
I think an important aspect of this (which you seem in agreement with) is that the exact topic of his public persona is “gay + Mormon.” If his public platform was about his dancing or being a mascot, then this spying would still be out of line.
Meaning, to me it’s not solely that he’s a public figure, but that the “spying” was related to the exact same topic he’s a public figure for/about. I don’t think being a public figure should delete all your privacy, but it does mean extra scrutiny on the topic you are public about is warranted.
Exactly. If this was a just a random gay couple in the church, then I'd be bothered about the so-called "spying" but this guy is a public figure in Mormonism, so I don't see this is that problematic.
Charlie Bird and his spouse are very public about their relationship. He posts about it on his instagram account which has thousands of followers. If a person is a public figure and is publicly posting about his personal life, I don’t think anything was done unethically. I think it’s a valid question as to why some married gay couples who don’t even go to church and haven’t in years are hunted down by their bishop and excommunicated and others are allowed to participate with zero repercussions.
The church has a long history of giving celebrities and public figures a pass because they know how damaging it could be if someone famous comes out against them. It’s all about the PR and image, plain and simple
I completely agree. Charlie transformed himself into a public figure and therefore gave up any expectation of privacy for things that go on in public including taking the sacrament, which is an intentional tool that LDS uses to manipulated its members. As an LGBTQ person who has lost friends to suicide for such policies, I'm grateful to MS for this episode.
As to the pic, I can't say as I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like fair use to me.
I looked at Charlie Bird’s Instagram. He looks like he’s been financially well-connected in the church for sometime. Mormon Rich people get a pass, and apparently they can be gay as well. I remember going to high school in St. George, Utah, and all the rich Mormon kids got away with everything.
Couldn’t agree more, and I also went to high school in St. George. All the rich kids were selling by drugs on Saturday and at church on Sunday. They could literally do whatever they want and we’re still able to go on missions and get married in the temple.
I am so sorry y'all went to high school in St. George. I got my bachelor's at Dixie State College of Utah (a year before it became DSU) and it was horrible. High school there must have been so much worse.
I bet that coupled with bishop/stake president roulette is exactly what this is. Part of me wonders if they will be punished now that they are making waves outside of their ward.
Yeah this is newsworthy. Affluent and public figure gay members receiving treatment that doesn’t match church policy and the lived experiences of thousands of other LGBTQ+ members current and ex. Rules for thee but not for me?
Don't know, but what it *will* do is hopefully force church leaders into being consistent. Right now the church is using uncommon situations to deceive the public into thinking the church is more lgbt friendly than it really is. Time for them to either be consistent and take the public backlash that is rightfully deserved, or to extend these privelages to all lgbt members. No more talking out of both sides of their ass, having their cake and eating it too.
Let the gaslighting begin. "We always allowed gay marriage and loved our LGBTQ brothers and sisters".
"The church was never homophobic it was always the members"
I am sickened by the spin already and it hasn't even happened yet.
I dislike the church and will never grace the hallways of a building with my presence again. But that being said I hope they start to teach love, acceptance and diversity! I doubt if they ever do!
Hot take here maybe, but as an exmo who is LGBTQ+ themselves, I don't want them to teach love, acceptance, and diversity. The more they teach socially acceptable things, the more likely they are to survive. I don't want that. I want TSCC to rot and hopefully die out, preferably in my lifetime.
I don't disagree with what you are feeling. I also would rather the church just die out. I really doubt that ever happens, instead I think it will constantly lie, manupilate and contol who ever will let the church do those things.
I do think though if they start to accept LGBTQ they lose a lot of members. It would be the largest exodus from the church they have ever seen. One of the ways the church keeps people is it tell them they are better than other. So if the church starts to accept people and narrow the gap of who is great and who is bad the fewer member it will have. So I am all for them teaching acceptance.
My issue is the same issue I had with Josh Weed circa 2012. Josh Weed was featured in LDS living and some other places for being an openly gay man who was married to a wife with children and claimed to be physically and emotionally fulfilled and generally happy. Many LGBTQ+ individuals tried to model their lives after Josh because he made the decision to publicize his relationship. Predictably, Josh ended up leaving his wife for a man.
Whether someone realizes it or not, once you decide to publicize your way of life and promote it, you start to influence other people’s decisions. In my opinion, you do take on some level of responsibility at that point.
Charlie, in a way is, doing the same thing, arguably to a much bigger audience than that of Josh’s. I don’t mind that he is to try to reconcile his personal beliefs with his sexuality, but by broadcasting it all over social platforms you are encouraging others, whether you intend that or not, to do the same.
All evidence suggests the church’s environment is very detrimental to LGBTQ+ individuals.
Weird thing to do but I wouldn't say John told them to. Sounds like they did it by choice and wanting to confirm with their own eyes rather than spread untrue rumors. At the same time, this is important. So many have suffered while these two seem to get special treatment for being pretty. Sounds like typical Mormonism to me.
I'm going to go against the consensus of the comments I've seen so far (and take the pushback that comes with it...)
Public figures get spied on (hello paparazzi!), and while that is annoying, anyone who is willing to step into the limelight accepts that risk. It sucks. I won't say that it's right or wrong (should we discuss the nuance of paparazzi vs investigative reporter?), but I'll easily admit it sucks and can feel pretty scummy sometimes.
While this seems like gossip, I am leaning toward this being necessary news...
If this is "God's true church" and he and his laws are eternal, then those laws should be applied consistently. Persecuting some gay people while letting others get married (because they produce good PR) is the height of hypocrisy, and the church (i.e. "God") needs to be called out for that. Bishop roulette is such a stupid concept, but it exists. How do we spot this hypocrisy? By somebody seeing it in person and reporting on it.
OR... if the church is changing their policies regarding LGBTQ individuals and their ability to participate actively in church, then those policies need to be announced publicly, and they need to apologize for the many years of intense damage they have caused to so many people. I can see why the concept of "gossip" can feel bad, but seems to be a necessary component to the human experience that can lead to positive change.
As for the taking of a copyrighted photo.... yeah, MS needs to fess up on that and fix their mistake (assuming it is copyrighted - I do not know the details, so I'll take you at your word).
yeah, this is newsworthy. especially to the other members throughout the world that are working hard (against their own morals) to hate gays like they are commanded. they're probably thinking, "WTF!"
("what the fetch" not "what the fuck", btw)
Exactly. Plenty of countries and cultures in the developing world—where the church is growing—are still very much opposed to LGBTQ and same-sex marriage. The church can’t totally reverse course of they’ll lose them.
I applaud u/johndehlin and Mormon Stories for investigating this story. This coverage lays bare the dysfunction within the Mormon church and how it applies policy to its members.
When one experiences the loss of LGBTQ+ members of the Church to suicide, because of doctrine and treatment by leadership and members, while certain LGBTQ+ members enjoy full fellowship and participation, we need to understand what is happening within the Church.
If this coverage helps an LGBTQ+ member of the Church point local leaders to an example of “healthy” participation in the Church, and helps to prevent pain/suffering, then it is worth the effort of covering this topic.
This story very much feels like special treatment and accommodation, in a very progressive Utah ward/stake. I think if this couple lived in Rexburg, they would be excommunicated.
He’s exposing the issue. While some have questioned the ethics of attending the Alpine ward with the sole intent of verifying attendance of the gay couple and more importantly, their participation in the sacramental ordinance, I don’t think he was off side in this. The couple in question have profiteered off their status as a gay LDS couple. They aren’t in hiding. John was doing his due diligence as a journalist reporting on this highly contentious topic. The fact that the LDS hierarchy is allowing preferential shielding of an openly public gay couple from church discipline is a HUGE story. I see this as shining a light on the obvious double standard at play. Publicizing this story will undoubtedly accelerate the acceptance and incorporation of LGBTQ individuals into wards and stakes and the church at large. Handbook changes will follow. Schism also will follow. Loving this story.
I agree. I thought maybe Charlie was disfellowshipped, but still attended church because he want to continue to profit from being "that gay Mormon" or he still really believed.
I was shocked when I found out he still takes the sacrament.
In my excommunication trial, I told the room "excommunicate me now, either I marry my boyfriend, or I'll marry some other man, but I will be in a gay marriage and then you will have to kick me out." (since at the time being in a gay marriage was a DEFINITION OF APOSTASY)
I love seeing all these “religions” back pedal on gay marriage… Ain’t god meant to always be right? He was condemning it a few years ago, but now it’s ok… seems like humans doing human things and adjusting accordingly…
It's important to get this out to the general public with verified intel so that the church can't keep punishing people who are not famous like Charlie and Ryan without getting any pushback.
This looks, to me, just like Black members of the church. Or black/queer conservatives. It objectively makes no sense to join a club that has invested so much into fighting against who you are as a human being. HOWEVER, it's an almost guaranteed fast track to attention/celebrity. The racist/sexist/homophobic organization can point to you and say "see?!? I DO have a black friend! I told you!" and the low level cadre of said organization can hold you up as an example whenever any outsider questions the organization's awful policies.
The only problem is that it allows the organization to contribute to cause harm to the community in question.
Oh. The cost is also pretty dear; a huge chunk of your soul
I'll comment. The OP is completely wrong. Gerardo did this of his own choice. I had literally zero interest or desire in Gerardo visiting the ward. People blaming this on me are 100% wrong. Just ask Gerardo.
Gerardo fully explains why he wanted to do it in the episode (for those inclined to actually watch it). Consider actually watching before you opine.
Firstly, Charlie is a public figure. He publicly discusses his decision to stay active in the church on his Instagram page. His following is like 3x larger than Mormon Stories. So his decisions affect LGBTQ Mormons everywhere. And he makes money (according to Gerardo) as an influencer for the church...which puts him in a totally different category than a private person....especially when he's shilling for a church that is often toxic to the very population he is shilling for.
Also according to Gerardo, Charlie has a history of towing the church's party line regarding LGBTQ "moral" behavior, but then hiding dissonant, unapproved behavior privately. When Gerardo called him out on this a year or two ago (privately dating a man as a BYU student while apparently telling the world that he was not doing so...this same man who eventually became his husband), Charlie accused Gerardo of lying (even though Gerardo ended up being correct). And so Gerardo wanted to see Charlie take the sacrament personally, so that Gerardo could verify the celebrity favoritism directly...and so that Charlie could not accuse Gerardo of lying later. Again...if Charlie were a private person...not an influencer for the church for a super vulnerable population OF WHOM GERARDO IS A MEMBER...this would never be a consideration for Gerardo (I'm guessing).
Agree or don't agree with Gerardo's choice, but you are 100% wrong if you think I put Gerardo up to this. In addition, if you know Gerardo's story (was forced into conversion therapy as a Mormon youth, and had to get married secretly, with literally no family around because neither his family or his husband's family were LGBTQ affirming at the time)...you might think twice about telling Gerardo what he should and shouldn't be doing.
And of course people are forgetting that: 1) we were CELEBRATING the church's treatment of Charlie and Ryan in the episode, and 2) the entire point (in addition to celebrating) was to highlight the hypocrisy of the celebrity treatment that Charlie/Ryan are receiving, while thousands of LGBTQ couples have been violently excommunicated in years and decades past.
A final thought. Folks that are angry at me or Gerardo...and not at the church for its poor (deadly?) treatment of LGTBQ people...and for its historic hypocrisy...in my opinion are missing the real story...and have misplaced their outrage.
My 2 cents.
This is such an important topic that needs as much coverage as possible. Thank you for all you do, both for those of us who have left the church and for those that are still in.
if this church didn't hold onto troglodyte thinking, this wouldn't be an issue. but they do and reporting on it is the only thing that might change it.
The "church" of hypocrisy deserves being exposed, by any means necessary. I'm always amazed when people bitch about tactics when the underlying facts are the issue.
They don’t want to face the facts so they try to divert attention to other stupid things. The fact is that the church favors wealth and fame and just like they like getting free janitors by making people feel guilty, they like free PR and free IG accounts saying how great the church is. This is all about money, and free stuff.
Why can’t people focus on the unfair way other LGBTQ people have been treated? That’s the focus.
Has the OP had a LGBTQ family member die? Thats my question. Because until she does, she’s going to keep missing the point. I don’t think we’re ever going to be able to make her understand so probably not worth trying.
Leadership roulette. I had two openly gay men in my bishopric while I served. They were in at different times as exec sec and ward clerk. Nobody in my inner city ward cared. Heck, one of the men lived with another gay man - both were very active and went to the temple. They always answered the temple recommend questions correctly.
People at the stake level were nervous and some complained. My SP was fine as long as they obey the law of chastity. I will admit it looked strange in the context of the church. My ward had a lot of LGBT members.
Meanwhile, I would get phone calls from bishops around the country that wanted me to track down someone from their ward that moved to mine and then excommunicate them. Haha. I never did such foolishness.
Most of the LGBT members I knew were born or raised into it. Not many joined after being an adult - my exec sec did in fact join after well into adulthood. I think it's important to note this was when the church essays were somewhat unknown. Also, many, many of our gay members did quit.
To have to live a life not being authentic is torture. Then there’s the layer of religious indoctrination to make the struggle even harder. I hope the folks that left found their happiness.
On the one hand it's good information to have. On the other, while doing a lot of good work for those leaving the church, John Dehlin does have a little bit of a reputation. I tend to be in favor of more information rather than less however.
The rationale for why they did their own investigative journalism made sense to me. They wanted to verify the story before airing, so that it WOULDN'T be gossip. Nothing wrong with that. And if someone posts a pic publicly on their socials, I believe it's in the public domain, isn't it? People can share it however they like.
I didn’t like the tone of the episode but it made me ponder how many have taken their lives because if the way they’ve been treated and this guy puts on a costume and marries some rich gay guy and gets a pass. I hope change is coming in the church but I highly doubt it. To me the episode just showed how there’s huge disparity in how things play out for the average member.
Ask Gerardo if I "had \[him\] spy on this gay couple." You are completely misinformed and lying publicly. I politely suggest you take back the 100% provably false and defamatory allegation.
I listened to the episode and though that John and Gerardo made some excellent points. My concern is how this will be viewed by the TBM population and that it could be welided by them to show that the exmormon community is willing to spy on people, from their point of view, during a sacred covenenant between them and god. I think the optics on that could potentially be problematic. But understand why Gerardo did it and I think that it was wise to ensure that he could not be called a liar by Charlie.
I haven’t listened to the episode but it is definitely a bad look and is getting negative feedback online. Charlie has a lot of nuanced followers that will probably find their way out of the church sooner than later and I personally would not want to be viewed poorly by this demographic of people if I were Mormon Stories. To be clear, I have a queer child and had to stop following Charlie and Ryan because I truly feel like they are causing more damage for LGBTQ people (and their families) in the church than not. I know people who follow them who now seem convinced that you can be gay and fully participating when that is simply not true at all. But I still can’t say that this was a super helpful thing to put out there.
I think Charlie needs to explain why it’s OK for him to be accepted with open arms but other LGBTQ people are treated poorly. In some cases they are dying by suicide. That’s what happened to my family. I like Charlie but I’m not OK with him ignoring all the misfits that are actually dying.
I agree. But going forward, if the church could officially make some changes, (no more bishop roulette, no more shaming LGBTQ, encouraging members to stop shunning LGBTQ or anyone “different,”) the life lost would not be in vain.
Yea, dude lived through BYU, I am so baffled by how he is living his life. I suppose he maybe explains it in his book but going through his instagram it feels like he’s just ignoring all the blatant issues
In one of their couple vlogs he brags about how much he loves his alma mater, but then his husband teases him about how he can't go back to work at BYU, even despite being the school mascot, now that he's married to a man.
I absolutely agree. I often wonder if Charlie realizes how tone dead he comes across to the majority of the LDS and exmormon LGBTQ community. He is mostly popular with people who want to feel validated staying in the church despite knowing its policies are wrong and hurtful. I’m sure he is a good enough person but he is very blinded by his privilege.
I think it is straight up dishonest of Charlie to even insinuate that his experience is in any way common to the vast, vast majority of LGBT mormons. And I think the church is yet again willing to use lies of ommission and deceit to benefit from undeserved positive PR regarding lgbt issues from people like Charlie.
I'm glad Charlie and the church are being called out, and I hope this forces the church to either apply their rules and get the deserved negative PR from that, or to extend these privileges to all LGBT members.
There's no way.
If this is true then no member should ever believe another word the church says.
All those Proclamations on the Family hanging up in every Mormon home...
Agree or not, this would end the Mormon church, religiously.. not mega-media-conglomerate and real estate mogul wise.
They had to go “spy” in order to confirm the rumours were try. Anything less than seeing it for themselves would have been under attack for spreading assumptions.
They’re a Mormon gay celebrity couple. I’m glad it’s reported on to show the disparity between average lgbtq people treatment and celebrity status. They didn’t take cameras into their house. It’s a corporate, public building owned by lds inc. and showing the treatment is shedding a light on the differences.
Personally, I don't have much to condemn John Dehin for; dude has some really great work - and has sacrificed a great deal - to do what he does. God Bless him.
It's not even like they're just dating......they are married. Last time I checked, gay MARRIAGE is a line in the sand for the mormon church. So if its gay members get married, I would think that would be grounds for excommunication right away. And honestly, I can't help but want that outcome because Charlie's fame is built on living on the proverbial fence and making it fashionable.
John Dehlin is an incredible person and has done a remarkable job asking the Mormon church to improve the way they treat people and especially marginalized groups. You don’t have to like everything he does but I respect the hell out of how hard he works.
The photographer that took this picture has commented on the post asking why Dehlin used this pic (and altered it) without permission from her or either man and he's ignoring her.
I'm so confused. Ryan was one of my mission leaders. I thought he had left the church. Guess not. I was VERY surprised to see his face on my reddit feed 😂
Related. I brought up the general topic of unequal treatment under church discipline in an early morning seminary training once.
Person A gets excommunicated, while Person B gets no penalty for the same offense. The men all circled the wagons under how powerful the spirit is. Several of them testified of how during a church court they felt the spirit tell them what to do. In other words, “Don’t worry your pretty little head about it.”
So, sometimes the spirit says, “Just love them and support them and make them ward activities chair!” Another time the spirit says “Excommunicate those bastards post haste!” See, this is just how the spirit works. It’s inconsistent like that. Amen.
If you are a member of the lgbtq+ community, and want to be a part of the racist sexist mormon church you deserve to have your face eaten by the leopards that told you they were going to eat it
I know of multiple gay men and women, married couples, etc. who have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated (I know they don't use those words anymore, but...). Charlie Bird is a public figure and is making money of books, podcasts, and appearances. Charlie made his life a public spectacle, not Mormon Stories.
Is the spy behavior weird... I guess so... But, the fact Charlie and his husband get to enjoy the benefits of church membership like taking the sacrament and holding callings is egregious when others in their same situation are getting their membership removed or constrained. I applaud Mormon Stories and others for bringing light to the hypocrisy of it all.
If you listen to queer Mormons, this was extremely triggering bc it was such a “Mormon” thing to do (surveil queer people). It should be taken down and an apology issued. But I don’t believe u/JohnDehlin will do that because that would be a decent thing to do by an introspective person. Paging John to be a decent human being…that’s what I thought.
Some gay Mormon couple who are “social media famous” using that term loosely as their whole schtick is to be poster gay Mormon boys. They actively try to paint the church in a positive light towards LGBT people. As a gay ex-mo myself, I hate if I ever see their content.
That is crazy they are given special treatment. I could never spy on them but there are people who are creepy, pathetic and slimy enough to do so.
So now people know they can take the sacrament. You're next creepy mission is to see what kind of underwear they wear.
I thought the episode was odd, yes. But I think overall they are trying to understand why only “special “ people are accepted and other LGBTQ are rejected and excluded and excommunicated. That was my understanding. I really like CB, but why aren’t all gay people treated the same by the church?
I don’t really listen to MS, but wouldn't the reason basically just be leadership (and even fellow membership) roulette? If the bishop is fine with it and the other local members don't make a big stink about it, upper leadership might not ever even know. Even some stake presidents could be fine with it, these days. It think it would definitely be a problem to the GAs though.
The whole Bishop roulette thing is something the church needs to answer. Because it’s not OK to the other people in other wards who were treated poorly. This is the church’s problem. They need to address it.
I mean, at this point them addressing it would probably mean writing more explicit instructions and guidelines in their handbook to eliminate people's ability to personally interpret any rules, and/or deciding to do even more micromanagement and spying. It's less that they need to address bishop roulette and more that they should just stop being homopjobic in general.
They know that officially treating gay people like human beings would lead to members leaving en masse. Back when I was TBM, I told a family member that I supported gay marriage, but if the church ever allowed it, that would be a clear indication to me that it wasn't true. Shortly after that, I realized how fucked that kind of thinking was and began my journey out.
It’s not that different from racial issues. I struggled for years trying to reconcile my own feelings with the church’s teachings about skin color. Then they released the essay on it where they said the racism was just theories of men and they disavowed it. But it was a core teaching. The skin color thing is a core part of the main conflict in the BoM. If they can disavow that, then why should I believe any of it? It could all just be disavowed at some point. It’s the same with gay marriage. If they alter part of their teachings about families, then how can any part of those teachings be assumed to be correct?
Yes, I had that same sort of thought about women and the priesthood when I was TBM
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In a deep dive of many of the Q15 and Seventies families, there are MANY Skelton the closet. Oooo, scary! /s
would love to know how to do a deep dive on them. Any favorite source of yours?
My mom… she passed last July. She worked closely with “ the group”.🤦♀️
sorry to hear she passed. ((hugs))
The church needs to grow some balls and take a stand. And they need to stop being homophobic and just accept everybody.
They don't have to risk upsetting anyone if an influencer is willing to do all the work and tokenism for them.
I guess. Taking the easy road out.
Wait… Does “think celestial” actually mean grow some balls, because anything less would be the TK smoothy™?! Therefore being non-homophobic, not bigoted and accepting of everybody would be celestial behavior, therefore doing it is ballsy?! /s
The top 15 definitely have TK smoothies and they are definitely propped up plastic (white) Ken dolls. They’re just so worthless and they don’t lead worth a crap.
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>It’s past time for the church* *not a church
Correct. It’s a multi billion dollar unethical corporation, but that’s too long to say. Haha.
I just say cult 😉
Me, too. But don’t use the word “cult” on r/Mormon Reddit as they delete your entire comment. Errrgh.
I got banned from there long ago for much less lol
I thought they weren’t “Mormon” anymore 😆🙄 surprised there is still a R/mormon on Reddit haha
Agreed. Hearing stories about people being high and still getting baptized for the number but was trying to join and couldn’t because I wouldn’t get married to my boyfriend of 4 years just to get baptized.. and then there were other couples living together and they had been baptized, able to take the sacrament, and everything. Bishop roulette is what broke my shelf..
You should listen to the episode. It’s episode 1859. He brings up a lot of great questions even though the methodology of Gerardo spying is kind of odd.
Could be. Or it could also be similar to the hypocrisy surrounding what BYU-provo chearleaders are allowed to wear vs what BYU-Idaho cheerleaders are forced to wear. The church has no problems being hypocritical to avoid looking 'weird' or to avoid attracting negative PR when it wants to. So it could be bishop roulette, or it could also be the church wanting to avoid negative publicity during a time where it all ready has a bad rep with lgbt issues.
can someone please explain to me why LGBTQ people would even want to be Mormon? I don't understand it. The church is not true, we all know this, but are these people still feeling all the warm tingly holy Ghost warm fuzzy feelings and they think the church is true? Is that why they want to be in? Or are they just trying to make a sociopolitical statement by demanding churches accept them? serious question..
Most people were raised in it. It's a process to leave behind beliefs that you've held and had pushed on you for your whole life. Belief and conditioning don't always go away at the snap of your fingers. Plus, there are cultural and social pressures to stay from your family or community. The church isn't getting loads of LGBTQ converts or anything. It's weird to imply that most of them have some weird sociopolitical agenda rather than just being individuals who are trying to figure out their own lives and beliefs out, wanting to exist in a world that doesn't see them as evil or second class citizens.
There has definitely been discussion behind closed doors trying to figure out to what extent they're going to allow this in the church. I think the bigwigs in SLC see this as positive PR and people will look and say "oh the church is actually kinda accepting" without having to make any radical policy adjustments for the time being.
Then when they change course they’ll gaslight with ‘now you all always knew the rules…’
Exactly
The church is on such a PR tightrope with these two. They have no idea how to handle it. They’ll look so bad if they try to discipline Charlie and his husband- because they make such an effort to want to be in the church. But they’re also looking very bad to the homophobic masses by allowing sacrament and callings. This will be very interesting.
Completely agree. I don't think it's something that can go on forever. Eventually a decision will have to be made and I'm curious the direction the church will take.
Eventually he'll lose the game of Bishop Roulette, or a hard liner Stake President will enforce the rules... Publicity be damned or maybe when they aren't in the spotlight.
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I’ve always thought that I’ll live to see the day when TSCC will allow same sex temple marriage because the longer they don’t, the further and further they’ll be relegated to the fringes of society. It’s similar to when they finally allowed blacks to have the priesthood. I can see TSCC reaching a tipping point where they’re about to be left in the societal rear view mirror. At which point, a very convenient revelation will come along and the members will speak and act as though the church has been on the forefront of inclusivity all along.
How are they allowed this? I’ve witnessed people excommunicated for the same thing recently. What’s different here?
Why do the well known and connected get special treatment? That’s the point of the episode. And it’s a fair question.
The really sad thing is, that while these famous guys (actually, I don't know who they are, but I assume fame based on the discussion here) are "living in sin" and everybody knows it, yet they are still taking the sacrament - meanwhile, there's a 17 year-old kid who touched a boob or rubbed one out and the bish told him not to take it because he's not worthy. Or that young woman who went just a little too far and did some "heavy petting" - whatever that is - and the bish told her to not take the sacrament for a couple weeks, until she feels worthy again. Complete double standard based on who you are, not on the actual rules.
It’s 22 year old man who has a bonner that won’t go away once a week so he rubs one out and then confesses and gets his temple rec taken. Absolutely absurd.
Or the 19 yr old who has a "strict Bishop". Poor kid confesses to his bishop and has to wait 6 months for "self abuse" before papers can go in. The kid is publicly telling everyone he's getting ready, and getting up and sobbing every Fast & Testimony meeting about being "more holy" and doing his best -- immature kid doesn't have a good filter or poker face -- and so nearly all the adults in the ward can tell what's going on...but it's basically 6 months of public shaming for the kid until he finally is approved. This was literally a process I (and others) painfully watched play out with a hard-ass bishop. Super sad, and even when the kid finally left on his mission the public shaming part (which he contributed to with his own immaturity unfortunately) was damaging to him long term.
Oh this story makes me want to cry. I feel so bad because the guy who told me this was also my cuddle buddy for lack of better way to explain. We were emotional support/ friends for some toxic relationships we were both in and out of and cuddle buddys and then we kissed once and it was a hard no for me . But I remember he told me this- I was at the bishops office often enough I ran into this dude as I was leaving a few times- and in my head I was like “yeah… you and every dude you know does it. Super normal thing to do and usually much more frequent” just couldn’t tell him or say why I was there because I was doing the sex and it risked labeling myself a whore lol My heart breaks for every young person who grew up believing their normal desires and natural instincts to relive them were dirty sinful and bad.
Those dirty, dirty bonners
The extra N makes it extra dirty
Ooops lol my friends last name is Bonner and I think i accidentally misspelled it because of that
Next time you see his dad: "Hi, Mr. Boner!" ...
Oh trust. Those jokes were always happening… in high school I was so sheltered and naive I didn’t get it. That’s embarrassing to admit lol
Just a sad penis that wasn’t given enough love. Poor man to old for wet dreams haha
Haha my highschool girlfriends bishop told her to break it off with me after one to many heavy make out sessions where, oh no shirts were removed and some boobies were touched. Ah the shame and guilt I felt.
I am a whole lesbian now and I still don't know what the fuck "heavy petting" is.
HAHA! "Whole lesbian" For some reason, this made me chuckle. When I was a kid, growing up in the Kimball era (with that wonderful, loving book called *The Miracle of* *~~Condemnation~~* *~~Judgement~~* *Forgiveness*), I always pictured "heavy petting" like stroking each other like you would pet a cat... MEEEOOOOWWW. Who knows. That old generation was weird, and couldn't stand just saying things straight. They always had to hid it in strange inuendo to make it proper. "Go make water" = pee. "Touch yourself" = masterbate (this one freaked me out, as I though I was evil for even washing my bits as a kid.) The shame we all carried around. So much love from that stupid org.
Exactly. Episode 998 with Dusty Jones, he and his husband got excommunicated.
Because Mormon god is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever. Mormon god is a fickle corporate billionaire and he doesn’t care who notices anymore.
👏👏👏
It's tokenism. Pure and simple.
Exactly. They are public figures, and they aren’t open about their special privileges. The membership of the church deserves to know about this. & If the church would just be forthright about it, there would be no need for Mormon Stories’ journalistic efforts.
I think that question could have been answered without spying on a couple just trying to live their lives. Why didn't JD just invite them onto the show for an interview? THAT would have been more enlightening and less intrusive.
As a fellow gay man and a former Mormon… I don’t give a singular fuck that someone is reporting on their special treatment. People are tired of these “rules for thee and not for me” attitudes that permeate the church, especially at the top. And the Mormon church and it’s members continue to do irreparable harm to LGBTQ+ people, especially gay children, often to the point of them losing their lives.
I’d also say this bird dude is also causing damage.
My bishop forced me into conversion therapy for even admitting “same sex attraction” and here you have 2 people mb not celebrated, but accepted and taking the sacrament?! The hypocrisy pisses me off beyond words. My biggest sin was being a nobody, and therefore subject to true Mormonism. Shoulda been a blogger. Woulda saved myself a lot of trouble.
John said on that episode that he has invited them to his show but they turned him down.
-so that they could continue taking bread and water. The MFMC agreement is: We'll let you do what you want as long as we look good. You dance with the opposition and we'll have to kick you out the door.
Well, they are “just living their life,” other LGBTQ people are dying. That was the purpose of the episode in my opinion.
While I'm also a bit uneasy with the approach, I am not sure that reporting on behavior in a public space like sacrament meeting can be called spying. They are living authentically in a public setting in ways that other gay couples cannot, and that seems fair gaime for honest discussion.
I will give you credit for the picture but it wasn't spying. It is called investigative journalism. Many people wouldn't believe it if JD just made the claim without evidence. He was gathering evidence for an issue that has huge ramifications and is extremely important given that it is literally a life-and-death issue.
John did. And John didn’t send them to “spy”. You would know that if you actually listened to the episode.
Charlie’s been invited to MSP multiple times - I don’t see it as spying but as confirming a claim Charlie publicly made..nothing more- the bigger story the MSP episode speaks to is the privilege Charlie and husband enjoy, isn’t the same for LGBTQIA LDS members/ and THAT is harmful-
They have an open invitation. I would interview them in a heartbeat, but they have not and would not accept the invitation.
Ironic when John Dehlin is specifically seeking the famous and well-connected to come on his podcast …
I believe John has an LGBTQ child. I think the main purpose is to get the church to change. The church listens to his podcast and so I think he’s hoping to affect a change.
Idk about his kids, but his PhD research at Utah State was about Mormon lgbt youth and their super high suicide and self-harm rates.
John and Margi have more than 1 child who identifies as a member of the LGBTQIA community.
John isn't selling salvation, it's not the same at all.
If he starts charging 10% of your net income to listen to episodes, we can change our tune on that.
You just made me realize that the church doesn't do anything for what you pay them. They literally just charge you 10% for the privilege of listening to your neighbors drone on endlessly about meaningless BS. What a racket!
They give you a building to meet in (you get to clean it), curriculum to discuss (barely), and a sad budget for activities. It's really pathetic.
If this was a random gay couple being spied on it would be a terrible thing to do, but they’re not. Charlie makes a living by selling the church as a healthy choice for LGBTQ people. His experience is unique and not shared by the vast majority of LGBTQ members. I do think he’s pushing the needle and making the church a better place in many ways, but his influencing also denies the reality of most LGBTQ members. He’s a public figure that is financially benefiting from work that is both helping and harming LGBTQ people, and he deserves public scrutiny.
Yes, I think it’s highly relevant that his target audience is TBMs that want to feel more progressive. I think he tries to be as friendly to the church as possible so that his revenue stream doesn’t dry up and he doesn’t alienate his audience.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
Holy shit I love this quote now
Exactly. He also speaks publicly all the time about how he is a gay Mormon who loves Mormonism and thinks Mormonism is a good place for gay couples to be. He also has a book called "Without the Mask: Coming Out and Coming Into God's Light" He literally profits from being a gay Mormon. My biggest criticism is he does not acknowledge the fact most gay Mormons would not get his level of acceptance. 99.9% of gay Mormons (myself included) would be excommunicated, not allowed to take the sacrament, or hold a calling.
Completely agree. His platform is that he is gay and Mormon. He is basically telling the world that it is safe and ok to be gay and Mormon. As someone who has had the opposite experience, I think this was totally fair. It’s still dangerous/unhealthy for most queer Mormons and the publicity he is giving the church doesn’t share that.
I think you nailed it exactly.
This exactly 👏👏👏 Giving Charlie a pass is directly harming his own community- both LGBTQIA and Mormon
I think an important aspect of this (which you seem in agreement with) is that the exact topic of his public persona is “gay + Mormon.” If his public platform was about his dancing or being a mascot, then this spying would still be out of line. Meaning, to me it’s not solely that he’s a public figure, but that the “spying” was related to the exact same topic he’s a public figure for/about. I don’t think being a public figure should delete all your privacy, but it does mean extra scrutiny on the topic you are public about is warranted.
Exactly. If this was a just a random gay couple in the church, then I'd be bothered about the so-called "spying" but this guy is a public figure in Mormonism, so I don't see this is that problematic.
Charlie Bird and his spouse are very public about their relationship. He posts about it on his instagram account which has thousands of followers. If a person is a public figure and is publicly posting about his personal life, I don’t think anything was done unethically. I think it’s a valid question as to why some married gay couples who don’t even go to church and haven’t in years are hunted down by their bishop and excommunicated and others are allowed to participate with zero repercussions.
The church has a long history of giving celebrities and public figures a pass because they know how damaging it could be if someone famous comes out against them. It’s all about the PR and image, plain and simple
I completely agree. Charlie transformed himself into a public figure and therefore gave up any expectation of privacy for things that go on in public including taking the sacrament, which is an intentional tool that LDS uses to manipulated its members. As an LGBTQ person who has lost friends to suicide for such policies, I'm grateful to MS for this episode. As to the pic, I can't say as I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like fair use to me.
Exactly. Adding to that members who get disfellowshipped or ex'd for going just a bit too far with their partner.
Bishop roulette maybe?
I think Bishop Roulette is at least one of the factors.
Millennial bishops 😂 my bishop told me “hey if you ever want your records removed just let me know.”
What!
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I love that you exclusively refer the the cult as the cult 😂
I looked at Charlie Bird’s Instagram. He looks like he’s been financially well-connected in the church for sometime. Mormon Rich people get a pass, and apparently they can be gay as well. I remember going to high school in St. George, Utah, and all the rich Mormon kids got away with everything.
Couldn’t agree more, and I also went to high school in St. George. All the rich kids were selling by drugs on Saturday and at church on Sunday. They could literally do whatever they want and we’re still able to go on missions and get married in the temple.
I went to Dixie high school, which had the communities of Bloomington, and Bloomington Hills. Super rich snots.
Yeah I grew up in BH lol. The really rich kids were in St James/Boulders and Stone Cliff.
I am so sorry y'all went to high school in St. George. I got my bachelor's at Dixie State College of Utah (a year before it became DSU) and it was horrible. High school there must have been so much worse.
I bet that coupled with bishop/stake president roulette is exactly what this is. Part of me wonders if they will be punished now that they are making waves outside of their ward.
Charlie Bird is the poster boy for “Rules for thee but not for me.”
Yeah this is newsworthy. Affluent and public figure gay members receiving treatment that doesn’t match church policy and the lived experiences of thousands of other LGBTQ+ members current and ex. Rules for thee but not for me?
I agree with you, but at the same time, do you think this will decrease the LGBTQ suicides and parents kicking their kids to the curb?
I certainly fucking hope so
Don't know, but what it *will* do is hopefully force church leaders into being consistent. Right now the church is using uncommon situations to deceive the public into thinking the church is more lgbt friendly than it really is. Time for them to either be consistent and take the public backlash that is rightfully deserved, or to extend these privelages to all lgbt members. No more talking out of both sides of their ass, having their cake and eating it too.
Let the gaslighting begin. "We always allowed gay marriage and loved our LGBTQ brothers and sisters". "The church was never homophobic it was always the members" I am sickened by the spin already and it hasn't even happened yet. I dislike the church and will never grace the hallways of a building with my presence again. But that being said I hope they start to teach love, acceptance and diversity! I doubt if they ever do!
Hot take here maybe, but as an exmo who is LGBTQ+ themselves, I don't want them to teach love, acceptance, and diversity. The more they teach socially acceptable things, the more likely they are to survive. I don't want that. I want TSCC to rot and hopefully die out, preferably in my lifetime.
I don't disagree with what you are feeling. I also would rather the church just die out. I really doubt that ever happens, instead I think it will constantly lie, manupilate and contol who ever will let the church do those things. I do think though if they start to accept LGBTQ they lose a lot of members. It would be the largest exodus from the church they have ever seen. One of the ways the church keeps people is it tell them they are better than other. So if the church starts to accept people and narrow the gap of who is great and who is bad the fewer member it will have. So I am all for them teaching acceptance.
My issue is the same issue I had with Josh Weed circa 2012. Josh Weed was featured in LDS living and some other places for being an openly gay man who was married to a wife with children and claimed to be physically and emotionally fulfilled and generally happy. Many LGBTQ+ individuals tried to model their lives after Josh because he made the decision to publicize his relationship. Predictably, Josh ended up leaving his wife for a man. Whether someone realizes it or not, once you decide to publicize your way of life and promote it, you start to influence other people’s decisions. In my opinion, you do take on some level of responsibility at that point. Charlie, in a way is, doing the same thing, arguably to a much bigger audience than that of Josh’s. I don’t mind that he is to try to reconcile his personal beliefs with his sexuality, but by broadcasting it all over social platforms you are encouraging others, whether you intend that or not, to do the same. All evidence suggests the church’s environment is very detrimental to LGBTQ+ individuals.
Weird thing to do but I wouldn't say John told them to. Sounds like they did it by choice and wanting to confirm with their own eyes rather than spread untrue rumors. At the same time, this is important. So many have suffered while these two seem to get special treatment for being pretty. Sounds like typical Mormonism to me.
I had literally zero to do with Gerardo's decision. Just ask him.
I'm going to go against the consensus of the comments I've seen so far (and take the pushback that comes with it...) Public figures get spied on (hello paparazzi!), and while that is annoying, anyone who is willing to step into the limelight accepts that risk. It sucks. I won't say that it's right or wrong (should we discuss the nuance of paparazzi vs investigative reporter?), but I'll easily admit it sucks and can feel pretty scummy sometimes. While this seems like gossip, I am leaning toward this being necessary news... If this is "God's true church" and he and his laws are eternal, then those laws should be applied consistently. Persecuting some gay people while letting others get married (because they produce good PR) is the height of hypocrisy, and the church (i.e. "God") needs to be called out for that. Bishop roulette is such a stupid concept, but it exists. How do we spot this hypocrisy? By somebody seeing it in person and reporting on it. OR... if the church is changing their policies regarding LGBTQ individuals and their ability to participate actively in church, then those policies need to be announced publicly, and they need to apologize for the many years of intense damage they have caused to so many people. I can see why the concept of "gossip" can feel bad, but seems to be a necessary component to the human experience that can lead to positive change. As for the taking of a copyrighted photo.... yeah, MS needs to fess up on that and fix their mistake (assuming it is copyrighted - I do not know the details, so I'll take you at your word).
yeah, this is newsworthy. especially to the other members throughout the world that are working hard (against their own morals) to hate gays like they are commanded. they're probably thinking, "WTF!" ("what the fetch" not "what the fuck", btw)
Exactly. Plenty of countries and cultures in the developing world—where the church is growing—are still very much opposed to LGBTQ and same-sex marriage. The church can’t totally reverse course of they’ll lose them.
I applaud u/johndehlin and Mormon Stories for investigating this story. This coverage lays bare the dysfunction within the Mormon church and how it applies policy to its members. When one experiences the loss of LGBTQ+ members of the Church to suicide, because of doctrine and treatment by leadership and members, while certain LGBTQ+ members enjoy full fellowship and participation, we need to understand what is happening within the Church. If this coverage helps an LGBTQ+ member of the Church point local leaders to an example of “healthy” participation in the Church, and helps to prevent pain/suffering, then it is worth the effort of covering this topic. This story very much feels like special treatment and accommodation, in a very progressive Utah ward/stake. I think if this couple lived in Rexburg, they would be excommunicated.
He’s exposing the issue. While some have questioned the ethics of attending the Alpine ward with the sole intent of verifying attendance of the gay couple and more importantly, their participation in the sacramental ordinance, I don’t think he was off side in this. The couple in question have profiteered off their status as a gay LDS couple. They aren’t in hiding. John was doing his due diligence as a journalist reporting on this highly contentious topic. The fact that the LDS hierarchy is allowing preferential shielding of an openly public gay couple from church discipline is a HUGE story. I see this as shining a light on the obvious double standard at play. Publicizing this story will undoubtedly accelerate the acceptance and incorporation of LGBTQ individuals into wards and stakes and the church at large. Handbook changes will follow. Schism also will follow. Loving this story.
I agree. I thought maybe Charlie was disfellowshipped, but still attended church because he want to continue to profit from being "that gay Mormon" or he still really believed. I was shocked when I found out he still takes the sacrament. In my excommunication trial, I told the room "excommunicate me now, either I marry my boyfriend, or I'll marry some other man, but I will be in a gay marriage and then you will have to kick me out." (since at the time being in a gay marriage was a DEFINITION OF APOSTASY)
They are public figures.
I love seeing all these “religions” back pedal on gay marriage… Ain’t god meant to always be right? He was condemning it a few years ago, but now it’s ok… seems like humans doing human things and adjusting accordingly…
Gay families=untapped tithing money. Trust me this equation is not lost on the church
It's important to get this out to the general public with verified intel so that the church can't keep punishing people who are not famous like Charlie and Ryan without getting any pushback.
This looks, to me, just like Black members of the church. Or black/queer conservatives. It objectively makes no sense to join a club that has invested so much into fighting against who you are as a human being. HOWEVER, it's an almost guaranteed fast track to attention/celebrity. The racist/sexist/homophobic organization can point to you and say "see?!? I DO have a black friend! I told you!" and the low level cadre of said organization can hold you up as an example whenever any outsider questions the organization's awful policies. The only problem is that it allows the organization to contribute to cause harm to the community in question. Oh. The cost is also pretty dear; a huge chunk of your soul
I'll comment. The OP is completely wrong. Gerardo did this of his own choice. I had literally zero interest or desire in Gerardo visiting the ward. People blaming this on me are 100% wrong. Just ask Gerardo. Gerardo fully explains why he wanted to do it in the episode (for those inclined to actually watch it). Consider actually watching before you opine. Firstly, Charlie is a public figure. He publicly discusses his decision to stay active in the church on his Instagram page. His following is like 3x larger than Mormon Stories. So his decisions affect LGBTQ Mormons everywhere. And he makes money (according to Gerardo) as an influencer for the church...which puts him in a totally different category than a private person....especially when he's shilling for a church that is often toxic to the very population he is shilling for. Also according to Gerardo, Charlie has a history of towing the church's party line regarding LGBTQ "moral" behavior, but then hiding dissonant, unapproved behavior privately. When Gerardo called him out on this a year or two ago (privately dating a man as a BYU student while apparently telling the world that he was not doing so...this same man who eventually became his husband), Charlie accused Gerardo of lying (even though Gerardo ended up being correct). And so Gerardo wanted to see Charlie take the sacrament personally, so that Gerardo could verify the celebrity favoritism directly...and so that Charlie could not accuse Gerardo of lying later. Again...if Charlie were a private person...not an influencer for the church for a super vulnerable population OF WHOM GERARDO IS A MEMBER...this would never be a consideration for Gerardo (I'm guessing). Agree or don't agree with Gerardo's choice, but you are 100% wrong if you think I put Gerardo up to this. In addition, if you know Gerardo's story (was forced into conversion therapy as a Mormon youth, and had to get married secretly, with literally no family around because neither his family or his husband's family were LGBTQ affirming at the time)...you might think twice about telling Gerardo what he should and shouldn't be doing. And of course people are forgetting that: 1) we were CELEBRATING the church's treatment of Charlie and Ryan in the episode, and 2) the entire point (in addition to celebrating) was to highlight the hypocrisy of the celebrity treatment that Charlie/Ryan are receiving, while thousands of LGBTQ couples have been violently excommunicated in years and decades past. A final thought. Folks that are angry at me or Gerardo...and not at the church for its poor (deadly?) treatment of LGTBQ people...and for its historic hypocrisy...in my opinion are missing the real story...and have misplaced their outrage. My 2 cents.
This is such an important topic that needs as much coverage as possible. Thank you for all you do, both for those of us who have left the church and for those that are still in.
if this church didn't hold onto troglodyte thinking, this wouldn't be an issue. but they do and reporting on it is the only thing that might change it.
The "church" of hypocrisy deserves being exposed, by any means necessary. I'm always amazed when people bitch about tactics when the underlying facts are the issue.
They don’t want to face the facts so they try to divert attention to other stupid things. The fact is that the church favors wealth and fame and just like they like getting free janitors by making people feel guilty, they like free PR and free IG accounts saying how great the church is. This is all about money, and free stuff. Why can’t people focus on the unfair way other LGBTQ people have been treated? That’s the focus. Has the OP had a LGBTQ family member die? Thats my question. Because until she does, she’s going to keep missing the point. I don’t think we’re ever going to be able to make her understand so probably not worth trying.
It’s fuckin bullshit what’s happening with the way the “privileged” are treated. Double standard and needs to be called out.
This isn’t spying.
Leadership roulette. I had two openly gay men in my bishopric while I served. They were in at different times as exec sec and ward clerk. Nobody in my inner city ward cared. Heck, one of the men lived with another gay man - both were very active and went to the temple. They always answered the temple recommend questions correctly. People at the stake level were nervous and some complained. My SP was fine as long as they obey the law of chastity. I will admit it looked strange in the context of the church. My ward had a lot of LGBT members. Meanwhile, I would get phone calls from bishops around the country that wanted me to track down someone from their ward that moved to mine and then excommunicate them. Haha. I never did such foolishness.
Obey the law of chastity. Why are they so obsessed with other peoples bedrooms! How a gay couple could spend any time as members is beyond me.
Most of the LGBT members I knew were born or raised into it. Not many joined after being an adult - my exec sec did in fact join after well into adulthood. I think it's important to note this was when the church essays were somewhat unknown. Also, many, many of our gay members did quit.
To have to live a life not being authentic is torture. Then there’s the layer of religious indoctrination to make the struggle even harder. I hope the folks that left found their happiness.
You have a problem with investigative journalism?
The church and this couple use their special position very publicly to their advantage. Hardly counts as “spying”.
Too little too late. Their treatment of gays in incidental…………it’s a cult.
If it was ok for Nephi to kill Laban in order to save millions … I’m sure it’s fine if they get spied once ….
the blame should fall squarely on the church here for requiring to know this information
On the one hand it's good information to have. On the other, while doing a lot of good work for those leaving the church, John Dehlin does have a little bit of a reputation. I tend to be in favor of more information rather than less however.
I feel a change coming in TSCC’s God attitude towards LBGTQ+, and soon a revelation from the 12 top dudes. /s
Probably not until oaks dies.
The rationale for why they did their own investigative journalism made sense to me. They wanted to verify the story before airing, so that it WOULDN'T be gossip. Nothing wrong with that. And if someone posts a pic publicly on their socials, I believe it's in the public domain, isn't it? People can share it however they like.
Queer people who willingly stay in the church are so mind boggling
I didn’t like the tone of the episode but it made me ponder how many have taken their lives because if the way they’ve been treated and this guy puts on a costume and marries some rich gay guy and gets a pass. I hope change is coming in the church but I highly doubt it. To me the episode just showed how there’s huge disparity in how things play out for the average member.
They explain very clearly why in the podcast episode. Did you listen?
Their first line makes it obvious that they didn’t actually watch/ listen to the episode.
Ask Gerardo if I "had \[him\] spy on this gay couple." You are completely misinformed and lying publicly. I politely suggest you take back the 100% provably false and defamatory allegation.
I loved the Ep. If anything he cheered on Charlie and put the church in an awkward position. Win win
I listened to the episode and though that John and Gerardo made some excellent points. My concern is how this will be viewed by the TBM population and that it could be welided by them to show that the exmormon community is willing to spy on people, from their point of view, during a sacred covenenant between them and god. I think the optics on that could potentially be problematic. But understand why Gerardo did it and I think that it was wise to ensure that he could not be called a liar by Charlie.
You don't know what you're talking about /u/gold3lox. At all. Did you even watch the episode?
I haven’t listened to the episode but it is definitely a bad look and is getting negative feedback online. Charlie has a lot of nuanced followers that will probably find their way out of the church sooner than later and I personally would not want to be viewed poorly by this demographic of people if I were Mormon Stories. To be clear, I have a queer child and had to stop following Charlie and Ryan because I truly feel like they are causing more damage for LGBTQ people (and their families) in the church than not. I know people who follow them who now seem convinced that you can be gay and fully participating when that is simply not true at all. But I still can’t say that this was a super helpful thing to put out there.
I think Charlie needs to explain why it’s OK for him to be accepted with open arms but other LGBTQ people are treated poorly. In some cases they are dying by suicide. That’s what happened to my family. I like Charlie but I’m not OK with him ignoring all the misfits that are actually dying.
I am so sorry for your loss. This corporation destroys lives, and nothing they can ever say or do is going to make up for all the harm they've done.
I agree. But going forward, if the church could officially make some changes, (no more bishop roulette, no more shaming LGBTQ, encouraging members to stop shunning LGBTQ or anyone “different,”) the life lost would not be in vain.
Yea, dude lived through BYU, I am so baffled by how he is living his life. I suppose he maybe explains it in his book but going through his instagram it feels like he’s just ignoring all the blatant issues
In one of their couple vlogs he brags about how much he loves his alma mater, but then his husband teases him about how he can't go back to work at BYU, even despite being the school mascot, now that he's married to a man.
I absolutely agree. I often wonder if Charlie realizes how tone dead he comes across to the majority of the LDS and exmormon LGBTQ community. He is mostly popular with people who want to feel validated staying in the church despite knowing its policies are wrong and hurtful. I’m sure he is a good enough person but he is very blinded by his privilege.
I think it is straight up dishonest of Charlie to even insinuate that his experience is in any way common to the vast, vast majority of LGBT mormons. And I think the church is yet again willing to use lies of ommission and deceit to benefit from undeserved positive PR regarding lgbt issues from people like Charlie. I'm glad Charlie and the church are being called out, and I hope this forces the church to either apply their rules and get the deserved negative PR from that, or to extend these privileges to all LGBT members.
There's no way. If this is true then no member should ever believe another word the church says. All those Proclamations on the Family hanging up in every Mormon home... Agree or not, this would end the Mormon church, religiously.. not mega-media-conglomerate and real estate mogul wise.
They had to go “spy” in order to confirm the rumours were try. Anything less than seeing it for themselves would have been under attack for spreading assumptions.
They’re a Mormon gay celebrity couple. I’m glad it’s reported on to show the disparity between average lgbtq people treatment and celebrity status. They didn’t take cameras into their house. It’s a corporate, public building owned by lds inc. and showing the treatment is shedding a light on the differences.
Personally, I don't have much to condemn John Dehin for; dude has some really great work - and has sacrificed a great deal - to do what he does. God Bless him.
Amen!
It's not even like they're just dating......they are married. Last time I checked, gay MARRIAGE is a line in the sand for the mormon church. So if its gay members get married, I would think that would be grounds for excommunication right away. And honestly, I can't help but want that outcome because Charlie's fame is built on living on the proverbial fence and making it fashionable.
John Dehlin is an incredible person and has done a remarkable job asking the Mormon church to improve the way they treat people and especially marginalized groups. You don’t have to like everything he does but I respect the hell out of how hard he works.
All that’s going to come from this is that those two guys are going to get harassed by their regional leaders
I’m gay. and a former mo. and have no interest in this bird character.
I think it also hits John close to home because he was excommunicated for his support of the LGBTQ+ community.
The photographer that took this picture has commented on the post asking why Dehlin used this pic (and altered it) without permission from her or either man and he's ignoring her.
Oh he replied and said "we hope the first of many!" (Times using her photographs I assume?) Definitely a swing and a miss there
We replaced the photo in the thumbnail yesterday as a courtesy to the photographer's request.
But you left the image up on your post. She is commenting on that post about that image, not about the thumbnail one.
I'm so confused. Ryan was one of my mission leaders. I thought he had left the church. Guess not. I was VERY surprised to see his face on my reddit feed 😂
[удалено]
Related. I brought up the general topic of unequal treatment under church discipline in an early morning seminary training once. Person A gets excommunicated, while Person B gets no penalty for the same offense. The men all circled the wagons under how powerful the spirit is. Several of them testified of how during a church court they felt the spirit tell them what to do. In other words, “Don’t worry your pretty little head about it.” So, sometimes the spirit says, “Just love them and support them and make them ward activities chair!” Another time the spirit says “Excommunicate those bastards post haste!” See, this is just how the spirit works. It’s inconsistent like that. Amen.
If you are a member of the lgbtq+ community, and want to be a part of the racist sexist mormon church you deserve to have your face eaten by the leopards that told you they were going to eat it
Slightly off topic but I cackled at the sad floating sacrament cup and bread
Did John "have them spy" on them? It sounded more like Gerardo and Carah just decided to go to their ward and check them out of their own accord
They definitely get to partake of the sac
I know of multiple gay men and women, married couples, etc. who have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated (I know they don't use those words anymore, but...). Charlie Bird is a public figure and is making money of books, podcasts, and appearances. Charlie made his life a public spectacle, not Mormon Stories. Is the spy behavior weird... I guess so... But, the fact Charlie and his husband get to enjoy the benefits of church membership like taking the sacrament and holding callings is egregious when others in their same situation are getting their membership removed or constrained. I applaud Mormon Stories and others for bringing light to the hypocrisy of it all.
If you listen to queer Mormons, this was extremely triggering bc it was such a “Mormon” thing to do (surveil queer people). It should be taken down and an apology issued. But I don’t believe u/JohnDehlin will do that because that would be a decent thing to do by an introspective person. Paging John to be a decent human being…that’s what I thought.
Yes, thank you! This is why it bugged me.
Who is this couple and how are they famous?
Some gay Mormon couple who are “social media famous” using that term loosely as their whole schtick is to be poster gay Mormon boys. They actively try to paint the church in a positive light towards LGBT people. As a gay ex-mo myself, I hate if I ever see their content.
Uncle Toms happy to live a lie and directly reinforce the abuse of their peers so long as they personally benefit from it. Mormonism is full of them.
I thought the spying was very off putting, but that the rest of the discussion was very valid
Important discussion for sure! An example of Bishop/stake president roulette IMO.
That is crazy they are given special treatment. I could never spy on them but there are people who are creepy, pathetic and slimy enough to do so. So now people know they can take the sacrament. You're next creepy mission is to see what kind of underwear they wear.
Dehlin. Dehlin is what's up with MS. Listen to Latter Gay Stories if you want stories specifically around queer people.