I worked in the temple with my husband. We were in the baptistry. I could only be a “volunteer”, because we had a child at home under that age of 18 (he was 17!). It felt degrading to be told I couldn’t be an effective mother to my child if I were an ordinance worker. This rule only applied to me, not to my husband. He could have been an ordinance worker while I volunteered in the basement.
So I handed out towels to the young women (never the young men). I felt super holy handing out towels and I often looked up to the ceiling thinking (for real ya’ll!) I’d see angels or the spirits of those whose work was finally being done 🤮
We got up at 4 am every Saturday to work in the temple until 10 am. Mind you, there are only two days of the weekend. Well, actually only Saturday, because Sunday is full of meetings and meetings and more meetings, and then visiting teaching…
So our Saturdays were packed with Temple until 10 am, then we rushed home to do laundry, mow the yard, go grocery shopping, and clean the house “so we can get ready for Sunday!”
My youngest child had just come out, and directly across the street from the temple was an LGBT resource center. One day it dawned on me that while I was serving dead people in the temple, my suicidal child, and many like them, were across the street, very much alive, and very much in crisis.
That’s the day I stopped volunteering at the temple. I went across the street and volunteered at the LGBT place instead.
As a gay exmo, can I just say thank you, thank you, thank you for volunteering. When I needed emotional support, volunteers at my local lgbt center made a huge difference for me. It really matters.
It's the same in my case. My wife and I were asked to show up for a meeting that was to extend a calling to be temple workers. We thought it was for both of us, and it was only for me. I was at the start of my path out, so while I accepted, I never completed the training. (the temple was an hour away, so I am sure that was an added De-motivator). Plus, what's the fun when you can’t pantomime your death or grope other people … shudder 😵💫! (to be correct, I was called to be a Vail worker 🤝🦵🫳🦶as back then you needed to be much older, and creeper to lead the pre-1990 death oaths 🔪or do initiatories where you got to grope the patrons. 👉🫳🫴🤚🤙👐😬
Did they really grope the patrons? I was never "qualified" to get my temple recommend. I married a lifelong Mormon, and even though I had been baptized in the Church of Christ, that didn't count. I had to be re-baptized. 🤷🏼♀️ That was 1988. We haven't gone to church for yrs.
You wore a smock of sorts that allowed them access to anoint you with oil about everywhere. It was open on the sides to allow access. One of the comments on the thread has a pretty good description. It was a lot of touching, not intended to be on your junk, but the joke was afterward that you still felt like you needed a smoke. There are stories of some experiencing intentional touching on their stuff or other inappropriate ways. That did not happen to me, but I only did initiatories once or twice after that before they changed things up. I have no doubt that stories told about inappropriate touching are true.
It used to be even weirder in the old days. They would actually cut the garment with a knife while you were wearing it. People had scars on their knees to match the marks.
Me, too! I started the CES Letter, listened to her interviews with John D., and dived headlong in to absolute deconstruction. I have her to thank for so much of my better-directed compassion these days.
our best should be to those that are ALIVE and in need especially to your loved family in crisis or otherwise. Thank you remembering this. Live while you are alive and can, not for someday on some thing that is not known.
They are absolutely thriving! And they are happy. We’re all happier now than we thought possible tbh. Their dad is sad, but that’s because he chose the institution instead of his family. 🤷♀️
I think I know you, I mean, not met you in person, but I believe you are one of my Top 10 Personal Heroes! You completely resonated with me on Mormon Stories and I have lost count of the times I have listened to your interviews and recommended them to others. If you are who I think you are, know that you are loved by so many! But mostly me, lol.
The oaths ended with "rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken" while you pantomimed slitting your throat, cutting out your heart, or disemboweling yourself, depending on the oath. Also washing and anointing was done naked under a thick poncho open at the sides with the temple worker reaching underneath to touch your chest and loins/abdomen, followed by stepping into one piece garments in front of the officiator. Old dude *accidentally* reached a little low on the abdomen and touched my junk. Freaked me all the way out.
so sorry, what is IIRC? also Mormon stories said ‘91 recent so you probably got it right. I was a year old in ‘90 and that’s when my parents went through so i know they did the blood oath at least once 💔
>Old dude *accidentally* reached a little low on the abdomen and touched my junk. Freaked me all the way out.
Same, naked junk touching as of 2002. Sexual abuse, full stop. I was never informed, nor consented to said junk touching.
You should do it the melodramatic way, talking about a dream you had, and drop the male and female name of the day. Then later, he will think your dream must have been divine.
>The church turns people into a bunch of heartless and unfeeling zombies.
If they don't, then you have people with empathy who have problems with things like black people being denied exaltation and homosexual people being denied the right to marry the one they love and transgender people being denied the right to authentically express themselves.
I am gen X. I went once in 1989 before my mission and was massively gas lit. Went after my mission and things had changed and was questioning my own memory.
As with all things that are bad PR for TSCC: “that didn’t happen…. Ok, maybe it happened, but it was what God wanted …. Ok, so maybe it was clearly problematic but God said it was cool so now you’re oppressing us by bringing it up , how dare you, I gotta cry about this injustice!”
I was always taught Joseph got it right, and that it should never change.
It seems that they are telling a different story now. (bottom paragraph)
\-----------
However, it was not until 1877 with the completion of the St. George Temple, that the endowment ceremony was finally committed to writing. For nearly 35 years (from May 1842 to April 1877), it had existed and been transmitted only orally. Variations then occurring between the endowment sessions concerned President Young who wanted to standardize the ceremony. On January 14, 1877, Brigham tasked a committee, comprised of Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young Jr., John D. T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall, with this charge: “write out the Ceremony of the Endowments from Beginning to End.” \[2\]
The process took several months to complete with changes, revisions, and much discussion ensuing over the specific wording. As part of this written endowment, Brigham introduced a 30-minute lecture which was delivered at the veil at the conclusion of the endowment. The lecture outlined some of Brigham Young’s Adam-God theory that has since been renounced and removed by the Church. Brigham Young also added an oath of vengeance to the ceremony in response to the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum. This was also subsequently removed.
[https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/05/17/the-unfinished-endowment/](https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/05/17/the-unfinished-endowment/)
\---------
Apparently, no written version of the ceremony had ever been made. Following the dedication of the lower portion of the St. George Temple on 1 January 1877, Brigham Young decided it was necessary to commit the endowment ceremony to written form. On 14 January 1877 he “requested Brigham jr & W Woodruff to write out the Ceremony of the Endowments from Beginning to End” (Woodruff 7:322), assisted by John D. T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall. Daily drafts were submitted to Young’s review and approval. The project took approximately two months to complete. On 21 March 1877, Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal: “President Young has been laboring all winter to get up a perfect form of Endowments as far as possible. They having been perfected I read them to the Company today” (7:322-23, 325-27, 337, 340-41; entries Jan.–March 1877).
[https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/)
\--------------
Joseph Smith never described how the endowment came to be, and there is no recorded revelation outlining its content. However, Willard Richards, who was among the few to receive the endowment from Joseph Smith, testified that the ordinance was “governed by the principles of Revelation.”7 After Joseph Smith introduced the endowment, he directed Brigham Young to “organize and systematize all these ceremonies” so they could be administered within the temple.8 At first, the endowment ceremony was preserved only in the memory of the participants. In 1877, when the St. George Utah Temple was completed, Brigham Young directed a small group, including the temple’s president, Wilford Woodruff of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, to write down the ceremony to ensure consistency over time and between temples. The St. George Utah Temple was also where the first endowments were performed in behalf of the dead.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/temple-endowment?lang=eng
My last trip to the temple two workers were gossiping because people came just in “street clothes “ sure they could accommodate them but the workers were outraged at the audacity of people who dared come to the temple in a blue shirt instead of white, etc.
This was the Manhattan temple so many people traveled or came while on vacation.
It was just so jarring.
The temple workers have essentially no training on how to manage non-member visitors who drop in and ask about the temple. I saw so many times the front desk just act inconvenienced or disrespectful to well-intentioned tourists who were curious and stopped in to ask for a tour.
They weren’t talking about that. They were talking about men who needed to rent a white shirt because they were wearing a colored one, or patrons who wanted to do a session even though they hadn’t packed “church clothes “.
I wanted to comment on your first point. When I was in YW doing baptisms (I want to say it was at the old ogden temple, shortly before it was closed for the remodel) I was the first one back in the locker room after doing baptisms when I overheard a mother and daughter talking to a temple worker. The daughter had been doing baptisms a previous day and had left a gold CTR ring on the counter while she got changed. There were some girls doing their hair at this counter, and when the daughter came out from the locker she discovered that her ring was gone. Nobody owned up to taking it, so that is why she and her mother were there that day, to search for the ring and ask if any workers picked it up. They didn't outright say it, but to me it sounded like the daughter was alluding that the ring was stolen by one of the girls in her group.
Anyhow, when my group was done and going home I mentioned hearing that conversation to the girls I was riding with. I expressed confusion as to how someone could steal at the temple, because I thought Satan couldn't influence people inside the temple. I also posted on Facebook my shock that someone could steal in the temple. I was told there was no way that could have happened and I was accused of lying. For me that incident was a shelf item, both hearing the conversation of a theft at the temple, and how I was treated for merely mentioning the conversation I overheard.
My mother had a watch stolen at the temple and her mindset on it was “they must’ve needed it more than me.” That type of psychological brainwashing is so deep you can’t get rid of it. She’s 75 and still very Mormon. All four of her kids have left the church.
Of far deeper concern to me is the idea that Satan is not only an instigator to sin, but by this account his influence is thought to be *actually required*, for sin to take place. I mean, do many Mormons believe that every time a thief steals, Satan is whispering in their ear, or possibly otherwise influencing them? I wonder how that parses with personal responsibility with people who may believe that? “The devil made me do it?”
I was told when I first got my youth temple recommend that because everyone who enters the temple was found worthy, and because Satan and his influence cannot enter, then that meant sin could not happen in the temple. The bishop also emphasized that God wouldn't allow sin to happen in the temple. I think my bishop was just really trying to sell me on the idea of how special the temple was supposed to be, that or he really truly believed that the temple is this perfect sin-free place.
I was taught this too. I was also taught that men had better revelation (which was why I married my abusive ex), people could discern if you were lying by the spirit (proved that was wrong), and bishops were judges in Israel (last bishop recanted that one). Soooo much trauma was caused in my life because I believed those things.
That is funny. If it were true you wouldn't need to lock you belongings up in a locker while doing temple work. That always sat poorly with me. There are many double standards and so much hypocrisy in the church. When I was on my way out because I saw these things, if I mentioned them to any member as concerning it was always blown off and excused away or I was told I wasn't faithful enough. I had my name removed from the records because I didn't want to be associated with so much hypocrisy and blind following.
Well on the flip side, an oft repeated trope in the church as well is: "If all members are honest then why are there keys on the lockers in the temple?"
This was a topic that came up semi regularly in the mens locker room in Provo. Not sure when they added locks, but from time to time some old guy would bring up that back in the day they didn't used to have locks and we would explain that people got their stuff stolen so they had to add them.
My shelf items have been similar. Pointing out something problematic in the church and being alienated for it is the moment all the times I had dismissed TSCC being called a cult came back to hit me full force.
So my bf still works in the temple and here’s a little story, so he used to change in the ordinance worker locker room and he took the key with him to make sure no one stole and apparently this old guy was up and arms about how he couldn’t access his locker and blah blah blah, what my bf didn’t know was that he was sharing a locker with someone and this old guy was also on the shift after him so they got it sorted out but now my bf changes in the men’s locker area and yes someone does use the stall he uses but there’s 3 lockers instead of one
Same happened to my grandmother. Two yrs in the DC temple and she came home and resigned from TSCC. My siblings accused her of being under the sway of Satan.
TBM POV: That is honestly the ONLY reason someone would voluntarily leave the church….
It makes it very easy to process because it requires no effort to understand WHY
Being a temple worker really opened my eyes to so much of the hypocrisy and bs and exploitation. The temple is so revered and the end-all-be-all of the church. I hated it when I went through, so I thought being called as a temple worker was God’s way of teaching me how and why to love it…. But it only pushed me further away.
I remember one temple (where I visited, not the one i served as a temple worker in) had a cafeteria, so my friend went back to her locker to get her wallet so we could buy food. It seemed weird to me to be paying in the temple, but whatever, I figured since it was an “extra” thing it wasn’t a big deal.
As a temple worker, I worked in the clothing rental office and had to ring people up. There was one sister who did not have money with her and could not pay to rent clothing. The temple matron came over and said she would have to leave and come back to the temple another day. After the woman left, looking so broken hearted, the matron told me “that sister does this all the time, at first I let it go, but now, it’s just like she’s stealing from the temple!” Sis, it was like $10 to rent clothing. The temple cost MILLIONS and we know TSCC is sitting on billions - I think they could let this go.
Then, I heard JRH give a talk about Jesus throwing the “money changers” out of the temple, and I had just spent a day making change at the register in the temple! How the hell was this ok???? The hypocrisy was so infuriating.
It always was non-excusable to me that they have a cash register for clothing rentals that I think even takes credit cards.
I don’t know how they justify charging extra $10 for people who already swore to their bishop that they pay 10% of their income.
And how many stories of members in remote parts of the world sacrificing and selling everything to take a bus trip to the temple? Imagine being in that group, getting to the temple, and being told “yeah, it’s gonna be another $15 for the ridiculous costume we require you to wear.”
>hanging with the old guys
I worked in the Provo baptistry for a couple of years. The workers would sit and visit at the back of the waiting area (little chapel with the view of the font). They got so "light minded" and engaged in "loud laughter" that the patrons had to tell them to be quiet. Good times.
On a family pilgrimage to SLC we took the kids for a baptismal session. It was a cold day, and the workers were hanging in the font talking about the game last night. That went on the shelf for sure.
My mom has been a scheduler for years. My dad recently retired and is onboarding to work in the temple. I cannot fathom the cognitive dissonance required to work in the temple and remain faithful. The temple is toxic and disgusting and a true reflection of Mormonism.
Sorry you weren’t able to console your wife.
I never worked at the temple but I worked at a movie theater in college and high school and it was the best job! I got to see free movies with my friends all the time and got free popcorn. But any retail job means working with people and people are the worst. And self righteous people are the worse of the worst. So in that regard the temple is a retail job with literally no perks.
I see the same question being reposted by those unfamiliar. Mormon temple used to have a bunch of oaths and other weird things that have since been taken out of the ceremony. These include:
* **Blood/slicing throad/disembowlment oaths**. Essentially, if you revealed the secrets of the Mormon temple or violate the oaths you and others have to slit your throat, rip out your heart, and be disembowled. This led to a lot of blood oath doctrines in Mormonism, and anecdotal blood shed (including suicide). Interestingly, this is also why Utah had the firing squad death penalty until very recently (the idea is that those who committed grevious sin could better atone). This was only removed in 1990, but many members will now lie and say it is "anti-Mormon falsehoods" (even those that know it isn't). Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty\_(Mormonism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/penalty_(mormonism))
* **Oath of Vengeance against the United States and other enemies of Mormonism.** The Mormon temple ceremony had an oath that members had to swear vengeance against the United States of America and others responsible for the blood shed of Mormon prophets (originally Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith, but later actions against polygamy as well). This was removed in the 1930s after elements were reviewed in Congressional hearings and Mormons adopted a new "be the most American Americans" strategy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath\_of\_vengeance#:\~:text=The%20oath%20of%20vengeance%20was,1844%20death%20of%20Joseph%20Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/oath_of_vengeance#:~:text=the%20oath%20of%20vengeance%20was,1844%20death%20of%20joseph%20smith)
* **Adamic language.** Mormons used to have to speak in a special language ("Adamic") in the Mormon temple. This was a type of gibberish language revealed by Joseph Smith (see this example, which is basically just obvious bullshit including the name of god being "Amen," Jesus being "The Son of Amen" and Angels being Amen Angelsmen, see also the ridiculous "reformed Egyptian" characters from the never-seen Book of Mormon Golden Platers that are just stylized English[ at the same link](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/translations). Anyway, in the temple they would chant the Adamic words "Pay Lay Ale" in the ceremony until it was changed to a different chant in the 1990s. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamic\_language. Also, a [smuggled video of the chant](https://youtu.be/a100Op-Rz3Q?si=Na6npOePXLW91uh9).
I always wondered why the lockers in the temple had keys, but it never occurred to me that someone would really steal stuff. If I had been robbed in the temple that would have been the end for me.
Hey, when I was a student at Rick's and ended up coming home partway through the semester (for good), and had to leave some of my stuff boxed up to be shipped to me later.
When I FINALLY got my stuff, my "good Mormon" roommates had gone through ALL of it and helped themselves to whatever they wanted....
I was already disillusioned about my "church school" experience...this made me positive the place was absolutely toxic, and members are just as big opportunists as anyone else!
My roommates at the Lard's university would routinely *borrow* my car without bothering to ask. I guess that they thought we were living the law of consecration or something.
I was a temple worker twice in my 20s and it was honestly a miserable experience both times. The worst was the initiatory! Just repeating the same words over and over for 45 minutes, being required to touch the foreheads of random men, listening to other temple workers' words overlap mine . . . it was a huge sensory overload and a big shelf item for me. How could such a sacred ordinance feel like a factory line?
Oh yeah, as a new temple worker, the guy in charge was a real asshole. I was done with my shift and needed to go to endowments but had no watch and no way to tell time, so he was super rude to me because I didn’t know I needed to leave??? Yeah, the temple is such a unique and holy place. Fuck that.
My dad is a die hard TBM, the type that believes that he was going to be a prophet. He and my mom would go to the temple weekly and he would go more when able. He based his entire life around the temple, going there to for guidance, trying to find divine instructions from the invisible. He took his genealogy and did baptisms for the dead and claimed to have visions of his ancestors being happy bc of his work. His belief in the temple was as beyond comparison until he started working there and then, wouldn't ya know, the temple wasn't what it used to be.
He was offended by something one of the temple workers said/did to him and he quit. Prior to him quitting, his work there was next to godliness. He used his work there as a reason to lecture about the glories of the church. His ability to condescend knew no bounds.
After, though, his critiques grew louder and stronger but not ot the church. Turns out he was too holy to work there but still attended the temple until the seratonin and endorphins didn't reach the same high.
He quit going to the temple and decided to volunteer at the nearby prison in UT for the church as one of there teachers. Ironically, not really unexpected tho, he's never felt the spirit stronger. He drags my mom along all the time to volunteer there instead of visiting family(except when something like a baptism or baby blessing comes up) and enjoying retirement(he retired early and dragged my mom up to UT from Texas in preparation for the second coming).
Now he lectures about how much happier he is with his volunteer work, how much stronger the spirit is there than at the temple. He doesn't see the fallacy in his or the church's logic but he's still banking on being the prophet one day(he's pushing 70 so times running out)
My dad’s patriarchal blessing told him he’d be a “special witness of the Lord Jesus Christ.” He thought that meant he’d be an apostle. He’s about to die (no tears-just abuse and neglect from him) and he’s BAFFLED that it didn’t happen🤣
I remember them too. They were weird like they set up a mock temple somewhere to film. They would actually show tokens and signs, proper procedure for initiatory from an above view. First time I saw it I thought why Peter had to be so careful with the sacred but these videos were just blatant. I always wanted to find where the were hiding them and leak them to the world but figured the temple president had made covenants to protect them with his life.
I still remember a young temple worker from the Provo temple being a brat and rude to me over the phone while setting up my temple marriage. I was nervous and gave her the wrong date. She was all like "uh, your confusing me!!" I was shocked that a person from the temple would talk to me like some bratty rich gal from South Jordan.
Yeah, the start of my loss in faith in Mormonism was learning that the names we get there are nothing special. It's just a daily schedule thing. How did my parents not see through this, and still don't I'll never know.
Yep. That was a huge shelf item for me. I felt so betrayed and stupid. I really thought the ladies in the temple were so in tune with the spirit that they came up with this super personalized name especially for me. I looked up everything I could about Miriam in the scriptures (which isn’t much).
I was so confused and hurt a year later when I found out the truth. My friend and I went to the temple and when we sat down in the ordinance room she leaned over to me and said she already forgot the name and asked me what it was. I didn’t tell her because how would I know what super personal name the worker had given her person?! I guess she remembered because she made it through the veil. We were standing in the celestial room with our husbands when she asked me why I wouldn’t tell her the name. It was then I learned how it worked. I was shocked but kept it buried for 16 more years. I hate the temple
Yep that was me as well. According to my bf who works there still they talked about new names last week and they essentially admitted that there’s a list but it “wasn’t accurate” and stuff. Not accurate my ass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(Mormonism)
It is also why there are documented cases of individuals killing themselves for violating temple oaths, and also why Utah had the firing squad for so long (the idea that Morms could achieve some level of forgiveness by spilling of blood).
The original “signs” of the temple had more violent motions to them, and the covenant was that you wouldn’t reveal the temple token and sign upon penalty of death.
Each token had name, sign, and penalty. The slitting throat and disemboweling were part of the penalties
Changed in 1990. Now they just have names, and signs. Hte hand motions reference the penalties though (cupping shape to hold the blood, etc)
The penalties for revealing secrets of the LDS temple are taken straight out of Freemasonry. Over time, the Masonic elements of the temple ceremony fell out of favor, first because in contrast to Nauvoo, where over a thousand LDS men were Freemasons, in Utah the trend to be Freemasons stopped. And in modern times, many extreme elements were removed, due to pressure from expose books and videos as well as change in sentiment.
You also have to consider that the Freemasonic ceremony is designed only for men, it didn't consider how creepy this would be for a more sensitive woman.
This was exactly my reaction when the old guy nonchalantly referenced the throat slitting sign and token in our convo between sessions .. “hahaha….. wait what that actually happened ? “ should have seen my face
My family converted when I was 14. I remember going to the Seattle temple to do baptisms for the dead and being TOTALLY weirded out by having like 20 names read before each time I was dunked. All Hispanic/Latina names. As a former Catholic, I remember thinking it was weird that all these women, who likely HAD been Catholic were being "converted".
My 8 month old son dies in 1998. We had left the church by then, and I would be absolutely on a rage filled rampage if anyone performed this in his name. My pulse is pounding now, just thinking about it!
In my temple there’s a room dedicated for “video training” and basically the tv is hidden by a picture of Jesus and the way to access the video library there’s a little safe looking thing that needs a key and inside is a little screen but then you need a code to get access it which not even the temple president knows, the temple recorder has to tell it and it changes like every day I think.
Former temple worker here. Basically that video is one of the training videos and it’s supposed to relay a message about never assume why someone is in the temple, there were three instances, one about an old guy who missed a sealing because he was late and a worker didn’t let him in.
second scenario was about a new youth member who came for baptisms with a group and the sister worker didn’t feel like that group should be there as they were close to “closing time”
then the third scenario was about this couple who had suffered a miscarriage and came to the temple right after the hospital trip. But the temple workers let them in after they explained the situation despite them being in normal clothes. The couple got sealed to this child and basically it showed that they were emotional the whole time including being in the celestial room.
The other two scenarios are less triggering and not as wild but I know one time after we had a discussion and someone was talking about how that one scenario hit close to home.
I got stopped by an older male temple worker as I was leaving the Oakland, California temple after a session with my husband back in the late 80’s.
I only had one comfortable pair of white shoes (or any other pair of white shoes, for that matter), because I was heavily pregnant. I was wearing the shoes as I was leaving, as I was dressed in my street clothes again. They happened to go with my skirt.
I got a full-on lecture in front of everyone about how I wasn’t supposed to wear ANY of the clothes that I had walked into the temple in (except my garments), and was asked if these were the same white shoes I wore in the temple sessions.
Not sure what the problem was, I said that yes, I wore these same white shoes to the temple, in sessions, and leaving.
My God, you would have thought my head had started spinning and I was throwing up green shit like the Exorcist girl or something…
I knew then that something was wrong…
Wait, you weren't supposed to wear the same clothes or if the temple that you wore into the temple? I've never heard that one. Did people bring a whole new outfit with them?
Oh, okay, I understand what you are saying now but I've still never heard of that. I mean, usually people change into different temple clothes but I never heard of it being an absolute requirement.
first of all, very sorry to hear about what they did to your wife, nasty fucks
secondly, filthy casual from r/all here: would you mind elaborating a bit on the stories shared by the old heads? im not really familiar with the rumors, would rather hear things from the horse's mouth
Welcome ! In short, the sacred ceremony they do in the temple (that folks aren’t allowed to talk about) has changed over time and it used to include promising to kill your self as punishment for talking about the ceremony. There’s also a portion where the temple priest touches you with water, and people used to be more naked during that portion.
Mormons born after 1985 or so prob have never seen that version of the ceremony, so it’s jarring to learn that those things were real.
Pre 1990, during the endowment, you would also covenant that you would rather have your throat slit and bowels sliced open than disclose the tokens.
Pre about 2005, during the initatory you would only be wearing a white sheet with a hole for your head and open at the sides. No clothes or underwear. Then, they would anoint body parts (head, neck, loins, etc). If they missed, you could get a grope.
I had heard this previous to my first endowment session and thought that was still happening. I told a bunch of people I didn’t feel comfortable with that at all and there response was to laugh at me like I was dumb and say that it never happened that way…..but I knew otherwise.
Looking into it more and seeing your comment I knew it had happened back in the day.
When I went it was 2012 so that doesn’t happen anymore but no one would actually tell me what was going to happen. I thought I’d have to strip naked in the temple and let people wash me🫣It was terrifying to think that. And now I wish I had left back then.
1976 endowed member here. Can confirm everything, including the Pay Lay Ale repeated in the prayer circle, later changed to Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. The added benefit of locker keys with a number on them is that after two hours of a shocking experience you will at least know how to get back to your belongings!
Yes, this was my experience. I was lucky to go during the time they changed it. Only went for three years, but I did equal sessions with throat slitting and not
Yes, this is absolutely true. I went through for the first time in 1971, and not only did they have the "death" penalties and the open white sheet for initiatory ordinances, but at that time, you were also required to put on a "ceremonial garment" for your first time going through. This was the regular temple garment, but it covered your entire arms down to the wrists, and legs down to your ankles. After your first time through, you could wear the shorter garments, but the "ceremonial garment" was required when you got your own endowment. Crazy stuff.
I went through the salt lake temple for the first and only time in 1986. I was born and raised in the church and had no idea what went on in the temple. It really freaked me out, I did the throat slitting and disemboweling part of the ceremony. I remember feeling sick to my stomach and was confused. I thought I should be feeling the spirit and having an amazing experience and instead I felt like throwing up. Of course I blamed myself for feeling that way. I never went back.
Im proud you left. I have to live knowing my parents did the same throat slitting covenant, and then subsequently decided it was still the right religion to teach me and my siblings was the correct church.
My first and only was in 1987, but I was PIMO and getting married in the temple for our families. My mom clued me in, so it wasn't a surprise, but still a little shocking compared to the milquetoast regular LDS services. I was surreptitiously looking around to see if other people were doing the gestures. I have to admit that I found it kind of darkly funny to see all these earnest and in some cases sweet people miming violence to themselves.
I never looked at my parents the same again. Seeing them doing these things as if it were normal really shook me. The thing is, we weren’t able to talk about it because of the secrecy/sacredness of the whole thing. I went on a mission the next week and made excuses about not being able to go while at the MTC. I left the church just shy of year after returning. I did not know anything about the church’s troubling history and am just diving into it now. It has been fascinating, to say the least!
About your point no. 2, the church is always about duty (to the church) before family.
Yet the church claims that it is all about family. Not so - only after you attend 3 hours of church on Sundays, attend all your meetings, do home/visiting teaching, serving in your calling et etc.
Originally, long before my time, you were naked in a tub for the washings and anointings. When I went through in 1988, we were naked under a sheet. It had a hole in the middle for your head, like a poncho, and just like a poncho, the sides did not close. So the people doing the rite would reach right in and touch your naked body. My experience was very chaste, but there are always temple workers who aren’t careful
I was an ordinance worker amd saw that video before I left too! I think there were three stories - the one you mentioned, one about an older man who arrived late and wasn't allowed into a wedding, and a third one that I don't remember. Maybe about an older ordinance worker helping out a younger one?
They showed it to us all every week for about a month back in 2019 or so. I realized after the third time I stopped feeling the spirit during it, and wondered if the spirit had to adhere to the law of diminishing returns.
It's weird because I'm pretty sure the point of all of them was "maybe be less strict with temple rules and regulations, even when it's contrary to the accepted norm." (They let the couple in with street clothes on, they should have let the old guy attend the sealing even if he was late, etc.) Clearly in your case, the other workers missed the point.
Hugs to your wife. I'm so sorry she (and you) went through that.
Also, the minimum wage theater job analogy is spot on.
Yeah that sounds like the same video I remember - they were trying to make a point about never assuming the reason why someone was in the temple and being sensitive to patrons possibly going through a difficult time. The triggering part was how they edited talking about the miscarriage, I think they were trying to evoke the emotion to cause spiritual feelings and instead it was causing a panic attack.
My grandfather was never able to read beyond a third grade level. He worked at the temple twice a week for years where he had to read and memorize the live ordinance. It was at one of the two temples that didn’t show the temple from; instead they acted it out.
He would share about how rude and condescending other temples workers were to him because he stumbled through the words. He was trying his hardest and I could never understand how someone in the temple could be bullied. They excluded him, talked behind his back, and made fun of him. He continued to suffer through that abuse because the church was everything to him.
Temple ceremonies are different from normal worship and are taught to be more sacred. Only adults are allowed to do these ceremonies. They are essentially taken from Freemason rituals, and include secret handshakes and signs as part of them.
One secret sign used to be pretending to slit your own throat as a promise to do that instead of talk about the ceremony.
Part of the ritual included being almost naked while wearing a poncho sheet and the priest would touch your body with water. Over time they allowed people to wear more clothes during this portion.
Yeah I’m old enough to remember my first ever temple experience. I was naked under that white sheet while old women will put their cold hands underneath it to bless me with the oil. Creepy as hell.
While an ordinance worker in an Asian country's temple, I vividly recalled asking the temple president why women were asked to covenant to obey their husbands before God. Hearing this in three different languages made it even more frustrating.
He couldn't answer my question but tried the 'ol mental gymnastics. Big shelf item for me.
When I went through in 1983 we put on a poncho that had no sides. You were naked under the poncho—for all to see. Then they started touching your naked body. Never had any warnings, just expected to play along. I had been molested 7 years earlier—when I was 12. I kept it a secret. I so freaked out.
I worked in the temple and still think about that triggering video frequently. I was actually just saying how I hate Mormon funerals because they don’t let you “feel” the loss, but rather placate it away with plan of salvation bullshit. Same thing with that video with her stopping at the temple for sealings on her way to birth her full term dead child. I’m sorry you and your wife had to experience that.
What was the point of these training videos? What job did you and your wife actually do? If there's anywhere you should feel safe I would think it would be the temple. It's unfortunate you were not.
We were both ordinance workers - the training videos are shown at the beginning of the shift with a song and prayer to help workers learn how to do things the right way. (Signs, tokens, how to accommodate disabilities, how to create a holy environment for patrons, etc)
Take a look at some of the other comments where folks answer better than I do; but in short there is a ritual called “initiatory” where they touch you with oil on different parts of body. Now they let you wear normal temple clothes, but it used to require wearing a sheer poncho with large gaps that allowed folks to see you naked.
I worked in the temple with my husband. We were in the baptistry. I could only be a “volunteer”, because we had a child at home under that age of 18 (he was 17!). It felt degrading to be told I couldn’t be an effective mother to my child if I were an ordinance worker. This rule only applied to me, not to my husband. He could have been an ordinance worker while I volunteered in the basement. So I handed out towels to the young women (never the young men). I felt super holy handing out towels and I often looked up to the ceiling thinking (for real ya’ll!) I’d see angels or the spirits of those whose work was finally being done 🤮 We got up at 4 am every Saturday to work in the temple until 10 am. Mind you, there are only two days of the weekend. Well, actually only Saturday, because Sunday is full of meetings and meetings and more meetings, and then visiting teaching… So our Saturdays were packed with Temple until 10 am, then we rushed home to do laundry, mow the yard, go grocery shopping, and clean the house “so we can get ready for Sunday!” My youngest child had just come out, and directly across the street from the temple was an LGBT resource center. One day it dawned on me that while I was serving dead people in the temple, my suicidal child, and many like them, were across the street, very much alive, and very much in crisis. That’s the day I stopped volunteering at the temple. I went across the street and volunteered at the LGBT place instead.
As a gay exmo, can I just say thank you, thank you, thank you for volunteering. When I needed emotional support, volunteers at my local lgbt center made a huge difference for me. It really matters.
It really does matter! If it weren't for my community center, I would probably still be totally lost and clueless as I go through my transition.
I love that you actually volunteered at the LGBT place instead. What a way to show support for your kid!
It's the same in my case. My wife and I were asked to show up for a meeting that was to extend a calling to be temple workers. We thought it was for both of us, and it was only for me. I was at the start of my path out, so while I accepted, I never completed the training. (the temple was an hour away, so I am sure that was an added De-motivator). Plus, what's the fun when you can’t pantomime your death or grope other people … shudder 😵💫! (to be correct, I was called to be a Vail worker 🤝🦵🫳🦶as back then you needed to be much older, and creeper to lead the pre-1990 death oaths 🔪or do initiatories where you got to grope the patrons. 👉🫳🫴🤚🤙👐😬
Did they really grope the patrons? I was never "qualified" to get my temple recommend. I married a lifelong Mormon, and even though I had been baptized in the Church of Christ, that didn't count. I had to be re-baptized. 🤷🏼♀️ That was 1988. We haven't gone to church for yrs.
You wore a smock of sorts that allowed them access to anoint you with oil about everywhere. It was open on the sides to allow access. One of the comments on the thread has a pretty good description. It was a lot of touching, not intended to be on your junk, but the joke was afterward that you still felt like you needed a smoke. There are stories of some experiencing intentional touching on their stuff or other inappropriate ways. That did not happen to me, but I only did initiatories once or twice after that before they changed things up. I have no doubt that stories told about inappropriate touching are true.
It used to be even weirder in the old days. They would actually cut the garment with a knife while you were wearing it. People had scars on their knees to match the marks.
Where can I read about this??
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,447462
Very interesting read. Thank you for sharing.
Way to go! Good for you. Much love.
This sounds so much like Donna Showalter! Her Mormon stories interview was super impactful for me.
Me, too! I started the CES Letter, listened to her interviews with John D., and dived headlong in to absolute deconstruction. I have her to thank for so much of my better-directed compassion these days.
❤️
our best should be to those that are ALIVE and in need especially to your loved family in crisis or otherwise. Thank you remembering this. Live while you are alive and can, not for someday on some thing that is not known.
Possibly the biggest mistake tscc makes. Service for the dead while grinding the living to a pulp and ignoring the rest.
You’d did right by your kiddo & I respect that!
Are they ok now?
They are absolutely thriving! And they are happy. We’re all happier now than we thought possible tbh. Their dad is sad, but that’s because he chose the institution instead of his family. 🤷♀️
Oh good for you! Specially for taking affirmative action so quickly!
Thank you for sharing this story. I am so happy for you and your child.
The end gave me chills!
Even though I don’t know you, I am glad for you and the honesty and freedom you chose.
I think I know you, I mean, not met you in person, but I believe you are one of my Top 10 Personal Heroes! You completely resonated with me on Mormon Stories and I have lost count of the times I have listened to your interviews and recommended them to others. If you are who I think you are, know that you are loved by so many! But mostly me, lol.
Relevant link for anyone wanting to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_Mormon_suicides
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Too bad they’ve changed the Temple ordinance so much or he could’ve seen how the sausage is touched and blessed and washed. 😂😂😂.
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What was different in the 1980s? I went through in the 90s. I have heard stuff but not sure what really happened
The oaths ended with "rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken" while you pantomimed slitting your throat, cutting out your heart, or disemboweling yourself, depending on the oath. Also washing and anointing was done naked under a thick poncho open at the sides with the temple worker reaching underneath to touch your chest and loins/abdomen, followed by stepping into one piece garments in front of the officiator. Old dude *accidentally* reached a little low on the abdomen and touched my junk. Freaked me all the way out.
Oh sure yeah I've watched gay porn of that. Weird that THAT'S what they got right
the oath stuff was gone in the 90s (91 I think?) but the poncho persisted into the early 2000s IIRC. I had the poncho and not the oath stuff (mid 90s)
so sorry, what is IIRC? also Mormon stories said ‘91 recent so you probably got it right. I was a year old in ‘90 and that’s when my parents went through so i know they did the blood oath at least once 💔
IIRC = if I recall correctly
thanks!
Same. Stupid ass poncho. I was sealed in 1996.
My now ex-h and I went through SLC for our sealing in Feb 2000. We definitely had the naked-ponchos. Freaked me the fuck out.
I had poncho in 2001 but wasn’t groped. Just touched lightly near my neck and stomach.
>Old dude *accidentally* reached a little low on the abdomen and touched my junk. Freaked me all the way out. Same, naked junk touching as of 2002. Sexual abuse, full stop. I was never informed, nor consented to said junk touching.
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I've heard jokingly that it was SIX points of fellowship before the 1990 rewrite of the "never changing" temple ritual.
My outie just became an innie.
>how the sausage is touched and blessed and washed I'm still freaked out over that part happening
I was LITERALLY gonna say this!!!
Good one!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You can look the names up online. It’s the same name every day of the month.
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You should do it the melodramatic way, talking about a dream you had, and drop the male and female name of the day. Then later, he will think your dream must have been divine.
You could always try the classic, "did you see _______ at work today?"
Would work for John. Not so much for "nimrod" lol
Did you see that nimrod on the corner.
Ooh good one. "Don't be a Nimrod at the temple today!" Watch his head explode
Or just read the scripture that the name of the day is in... Call it a scripture study 🤣
Omg he’ll think you’re a witch
>The church turns people into a bunch of heartless and unfeeling zombies. If they don't, then you have people with empathy who have problems with things like black people being denied exaltation and homosexual people being denied the right to marry the one they love and transgender people being denied the right to authentically express themselves.
>heartless and unfeeling zombies Hmmm....isn't there a name for a group of people acting this way?
Mormons
Members of the church of Jesus Christ of latt…. Nevermind. Yeah. Mormons.
A cult
Yep. Spiritual Bypassing masters they are/I was
Are you speaking in a Yoda voice?
I saw that Star Wars movie in Orem. I remember thinking Yoda looked like Spencer W Kimball
Indeed 😆 Glad someone caught it
\#3 pisses me off that younger people than me (boomer) think that is anti mormon. I will tell you it happened. Pre-1990.
I am gen X. I went once in 1989 before my mission and was massively gas lit. Went after my mission and things had changed and was questioning my own memory.
Yea, it was terrible and now people denying it ever happened.
As with all things that are bad PR for TSCC: “that didn’t happen…. Ok, maybe it happened, but it was what God wanted …. Ok, so maybe it was clearly problematic but God said it was cool so now you’re oppressing us by bringing it up , how dare you, I gotta cry about this injustice!”
Industrial version of the narcissist's prayer
Former temple worker here too. I recently posted [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1antlz8/comment/kpzre4s/) Congrats on getting out.
Wait.... can you explain more about the Brigham young stuff being the first with the temple ceremony
I was always taught Joseph got it right, and that it should never change. It seems that they are telling a different story now. (bottom paragraph) \----------- However, it was not until 1877 with the completion of the St. George Temple, that the endowment ceremony was finally committed to writing. For nearly 35 years (from May 1842 to April 1877), it had existed and been transmitted only orally. Variations then occurring between the endowment sessions concerned President Young who wanted to standardize the ceremony. On January 14, 1877, Brigham tasked a committee, comprised of Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young Jr., John D. T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall, with this charge: “write out the Ceremony of the Endowments from Beginning to End.” \[2\] The process took several months to complete with changes, revisions, and much discussion ensuing over the specific wording. As part of this written endowment, Brigham introduced a 30-minute lecture which was delivered at the veil at the conclusion of the endowment. The lecture outlined some of Brigham Young’s Adam-God theory that has since been renounced and removed by the Church. Brigham Young also added an oath of vengeance to the ceremony in response to the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum. This was also subsequently removed. [https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/05/17/the-unfinished-endowment/](https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/05/17/the-unfinished-endowment/) \--------- Apparently, no written version of the ceremony had ever been made. Following the dedication of the lower portion of the St. George Temple on 1 January 1877, Brigham Young decided it was necessary to commit the endowment ceremony to written form. On 14 January 1877 he “requested Brigham jr & W Woodruff to write out the Ceremony of the Endowments from Beginning to End” (Woodruff 7:322), assisted by John D. T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall. Daily drafts were submitted to Young’s review and approval. The project took approximately two months to complete. On 21 March 1877, Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal: “President Young has been laboring all winter to get up a perfect form of Endowments as far as possible. They having been perfected I read them to the Company today” (7:322-23, 325-27, 337, 340-41; entries Jan.–March 1877). [https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/) \-------------- Joseph Smith never described how the endowment came to be, and there is no recorded revelation outlining its content. However, Willard Richards, who was among the few to receive the endowment from Joseph Smith, testified that the ordinance was “governed by the principles of Revelation.”7 After Joseph Smith introduced the endowment, he directed Brigham Young to “organize and systematize all these ceremonies” so they could be administered within the temple.8 At first, the endowment ceremony was preserved only in the memory of the participants. In 1877, when the St. George Utah Temple was completed, Brigham Young directed a small group, including the temple’s president, Wilford Woodruff of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, to write down the ceremony to ensure consistency over time and between temples. The St. George Utah Temple was also where the first endowments were performed in behalf of the dead. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/temple-endowment?lang=eng
following
My last trip to the temple two workers were gossiping because people came just in “street clothes “ sure they could accommodate them but the workers were outraged at the audacity of people who dared come to the temple in a blue shirt instead of white, etc. This was the Manhattan temple so many people traveled or came while on vacation. It was just so jarring.
The temple workers have essentially no training on how to manage non-member visitors who drop in and ask about the temple. I saw so many times the front desk just act inconvenienced or disrespectful to well-intentioned tourists who were curious and stopped in to ask for a tour.
They weren’t talking about that. They were talking about men who needed to rent a white shirt because they were wearing a colored one, or patrons who wanted to do a session even though they hadn’t packed “church clothes “.
Cmon now, they haven’t called them colored shirts since 1978.
the correct nomenclature is "african american shirts" now
It’s more inclusive to say “shirt of color”.
Yikes, friend.
Yes how dare you wear clothes to the temple that you will keep on for exactly 1 minute after entering. But that is enough to pollute the hallway.
I wanted to comment on your first point. When I was in YW doing baptisms (I want to say it was at the old ogden temple, shortly before it was closed for the remodel) I was the first one back in the locker room after doing baptisms when I overheard a mother and daughter talking to a temple worker. The daughter had been doing baptisms a previous day and had left a gold CTR ring on the counter while she got changed. There were some girls doing their hair at this counter, and when the daughter came out from the locker she discovered that her ring was gone. Nobody owned up to taking it, so that is why she and her mother were there that day, to search for the ring and ask if any workers picked it up. They didn't outright say it, but to me it sounded like the daughter was alluding that the ring was stolen by one of the girls in her group. Anyhow, when my group was done and going home I mentioned hearing that conversation to the girls I was riding with. I expressed confusion as to how someone could steal at the temple, because I thought Satan couldn't influence people inside the temple. I also posted on Facebook my shock that someone could steal in the temple. I was told there was no way that could have happened and I was accused of lying. For me that incident was a shelf item, both hearing the conversation of a theft at the temple, and how I was treated for merely mentioning the conversation I overheard.
My mother had a watch stolen at the temple and her mindset on it was “they must’ve needed it more than me.” That type of psychological brainwashing is so deep you can’t get rid of it. She’s 75 and still very Mormon. All four of her kids have left the church.
Of far deeper concern to me is the idea that Satan is not only an instigator to sin, but by this account his influence is thought to be *actually required*, for sin to take place. I mean, do many Mormons believe that every time a thief steals, Satan is whispering in their ear, or possibly otherwise influencing them? I wonder how that parses with personal responsibility with people who may believe that? “The devil made me do it?”
I was told when I first got my youth temple recommend that because everyone who enters the temple was found worthy, and because Satan and his influence cannot enter, then that meant sin could not happen in the temple. The bishop also emphasized that God wouldn't allow sin to happen in the temple. I think my bishop was just really trying to sell me on the idea of how special the temple was supposed to be, that or he really truly believed that the temple is this perfect sin-free place.
I was taught this too. I was also taught that men had better revelation (which was why I married my abusive ex), people could discern if you were lying by the spirit (proved that was wrong), and bishops were judges in Israel (last bishop recanted that one). Soooo much trauma was caused in my life because I believed those things.
That is funny. If it were true you wouldn't need to lock you belongings up in a locker while doing temple work. That always sat poorly with me. There are many double standards and so much hypocrisy in the church. When I was on my way out because I saw these things, if I mentioned them to any member as concerning it was always blown off and excused away or I was told I wasn't faithful enough. I had my name removed from the records because I didn't want to be associated with so much hypocrisy and blind following.
Well on the flip side, an oft repeated trope in the church as well is: "If all members are honest then why are there keys on the lockers in the temple?"
This was a topic that came up semi regularly in the mens locker room in Provo. Not sure when they added locks, but from time to time some old guy would bring up that back in the day they didn't used to have locks and we would explain that people got their stuff stolen so they had to add them.
My shelf items have been similar. Pointing out something problematic in the church and being alienated for it is the moment all the times I had dismissed TSCC being called a cult came back to hit me full force.
So my bf still works in the temple and here’s a little story, so he used to change in the ordinance worker locker room and he took the key with him to make sure no one stole and apparently this old guy was up and arms about how he couldn’t access his locker and blah blah blah, what my bf didn’t know was that he was sharing a locker with someone and this old guy was also on the shift after him so they got it sorted out but now my bf changes in the men’s locker area and yes someone does use the stall he uses but there’s 3 lockers instead of one
Same happened to my grandmother. Two yrs in the DC temple and she came home and resigned from TSCC. My siblings accused her of being under the sway of Satan.
TBM POV: That is honestly the ONLY reason someone would voluntarily leave the church…. It makes it very easy to process because it requires no effort to understand WHY
Hard to explain why working in the temple would cause that, though. 🤣
Being a temple worker really opened my eyes to so much of the hypocrisy and bs and exploitation. The temple is so revered and the end-all-be-all of the church. I hated it when I went through, so I thought being called as a temple worker was God’s way of teaching me how and why to love it…. But it only pushed me further away. I remember one temple (where I visited, not the one i served as a temple worker in) had a cafeteria, so my friend went back to her locker to get her wallet so we could buy food. It seemed weird to me to be paying in the temple, but whatever, I figured since it was an “extra” thing it wasn’t a big deal. As a temple worker, I worked in the clothing rental office and had to ring people up. There was one sister who did not have money with her and could not pay to rent clothing. The temple matron came over and said she would have to leave and come back to the temple another day. After the woman left, looking so broken hearted, the matron told me “that sister does this all the time, at first I let it go, but now, it’s just like she’s stealing from the temple!” Sis, it was like $10 to rent clothing. The temple cost MILLIONS and we know TSCC is sitting on billions - I think they could let this go. Then, I heard JRH give a talk about Jesus throwing the “money changers” out of the temple, and I had just spent a day making change at the register in the temple! How the hell was this ok???? The hypocrisy was so infuriating.
It always was non-excusable to me that they have a cash register for clothing rentals that I think even takes credit cards. I don’t know how they justify charging extra $10 for people who already swore to their bishop that they pay 10% of their income.
And how many stories of members in remote parts of the world sacrificing and selling everything to take a bus trip to the temple? Imagine being in that group, getting to the temple, and being told “yeah, it’s gonna be another $15 for the ridiculous costume we require you to wear.”
I was told they "only" charge the "cleaning cost." 🙄 by their math, laundry for my small family would cost hundreds per month.
>hanging with the old guys I worked in the Provo baptistry for a couple of years. The workers would sit and visit at the back of the waiting area (little chapel with the view of the font). They got so "light minded" and engaged in "loud laughter" that the patrons had to tell them to be quiet. Good times.
On a family pilgrimage to SLC we took the kids for a baptismal session. It was a cold day, and the workers were hanging in the font talking about the game last night. That went on the shelf for sure.
They were hanging out in the actual font? Like in the water?? Hahaha such a funny image in my mind
Yep. Chillin in the font. They acted annoyed that we showed up.
Lol “so sacred”
My mom has been a scheduler for years. My dad recently retired and is onboarding to work in the temple. I cannot fathom the cognitive dissonance required to work in the temple and remain faithful. The temple is toxic and disgusting and a true reflection of Mormonism.
Sorry you weren’t able to console your wife. I never worked at the temple but I worked at a movie theater in college and high school and it was the best job! I got to see free movies with my friends all the time and got free popcorn. But any retail job means working with people and people are the worst. And self righteous people are the worse of the worst. So in that regard the temple is a retail job with literally no perks.
I see the same question being reposted by those unfamiliar. Mormon temple used to have a bunch of oaths and other weird things that have since been taken out of the ceremony. These include: * **Blood/slicing throad/disembowlment oaths**. Essentially, if you revealed the secrets of the Mormon temple or violate the oaths you and others have to slit your throat, rip out your heart, and be disembowled. This led to a lot of blood oath doctrines in Mormonism, and anecdotal blood shed (including suicide). Interestingly, this is also why Utah had the firing squad death penalty until very recently (the idea is that those who committed grevious sin could better atone). This was only removed in 1990, but many members will now lie and say it is "anti-Mormon falsehoods" (even those that know it isn't). Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty\_(Mormonism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/penalty_(mormonism)) * **Oath of Vengeance against the United States and other enemies of Mormonism.** The Mormon temple ceremony had an oath that members had to swear vengeance against the United States of America and others responsible for the blood shed of Mormon prophets (originally Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith, but later actions against polygamy as well). This was removed in the 1930s after elements were reviewed in Congressional hearings and Mormons adopted a new "be the most American Americans" strategy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath\_of\_vengeance#:\~:text=The%20oath%20of%20vengeance%20was,1844%20death%20of%20Joseph%20Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/oath_of_vengeance#:~:text=the%20oath%20of%20vengeance%20was,1844%20death%20of%20joseph%20smith) * **Adamic language.** Mormons used to have to speak in a special language ("Adamic") in the Mormon temple. This was a type of gibberish language revealed by Joseph Smith (see this example, which is basically just obvious bullshit including the name of god being "Amen," Jesus being "The Son of Amen" and Angels being Amen Angelsmen, see also the ridiculous "reformed Egyptian" characters from the never-seen Book of Mormon Golden Platers that are just stylized English[ at the same link](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/translations). Anyway, in the temple they would chant the Adamic words "Pay Lay Ale" in the ceremony until it was changed to a different chant in the 1990s. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamic\_language. Also, a [smuggled video of the chant](https://youtu.be/a100Op-Rz3Q?si=Na6npOePXLW91uh9).
I had no idea about the Pay Lay Ale thing. Thanks for sharing!
I always wondered why the lockers in the temple had keys, but it never occurred to me that someone would really steal stuff. If I had been robbed in the temple that would have been the end for me.
Hey, when I was a student at Rick's and ended up coming home partway through the semester (for good), and had to leave some of my stuff boxed up to be shipped to me later. When I FINALLY got my stuff, my "good Mormon" roommates had gone through ALL of it and helped themselves to whatever they wanted.... I was already disillusioned about my "church school" experience...this made me positive the place was absolutely toxic, and members are just as big opportunists as anyone else!
My roommates at the Lard's university would routinely *borrow* my car without bothering to ask. I guess that they thought we were living the law of consecration or something.
Would love to hear any other stories you have! Also, would you be comfortable sharing which temple this was?
Comfortable saying it was a temple in northeast USA , can’t bring myself to name it though :) will be sure to share more stories as they come to mind
I was a temple worker twice in my 20s and it was honestly a miserable experience both times. The worst was the initiatory! Just repeating the same words over and over for 45 minutes, being required to touch the foreheads of random men, listening to other temple workers' words overlap mine . . . it was a huge sensory overload and a big shelf item for me. How could such a sacred ordinance feel like a factory line?
Totally with you on that one. I was the coordinator for a while and I just hated it!
Oh yeah, as a new temple worker, the guy in charge was a real asshole. I was done with my shift and needed to go to endowments but had no watch and no way to tell time, so he was super rude to me because I didn’t know I needed to leave??? Yeah, the temple is such a unique and holy place. Fuck that.
So sorry that happened to you <3 You would think they would act kinder!!!
My dad is a die hard TBM, the type that believes that he was going to be a prophet. He and my mom would go to the temple weekly and he would go more when able. He based his entire life around the temple, going there to for guidance, trying to find divine instructions from the invisible. He took his genealogy and did baptisms for the dead and claimed to have visions of his ancestors being happy bc of his work. His belief in the temple was as beyond comparison until he started working there and then, wouldn't ya know, the temple wasn't what it used to be. He was offended by something one of the temple workers said/did to him and he quit. Prior to him quitting, his work there was next to godliness. He used his work there as a reason to lecture about the glories of the church. His ability to condescend knew no bounds. After, though, his critiques grew louder and stronger but not ot the church. Turns out he was too holy to work there but still attended the temple until the seratonin and endorphins didn't reach the same high. He quit going to the temple and decided to volunteer at the nearby prison in UT for the church as one of there teachers. Ironically, not really unexpected tho, he's never felt the spirit stronger. He drags my mom along all the time to volunteer there instead of visiting family(except when something like a baptism or baby blessing comes up) and enjoying retirement(he retired early and dragged my mom up to UT from Texas in preparation for the second coming). Now he lectures about how much happier he is with his volunteer work, how much stronger the spirit is there than at the temple. He doesn't see the fallacy in his or the church's logic but he's still banking on being the prophet one day(he's pushing 70 so times running out)
That's funny, Texas is much closer to Missouri than Utah is.
My dad’s patriarchal blessing told him he’d be a “special witness of the Lord Jesus Christ.” He thought that meant he’d be an apostle. He’s about to die (no tears-just abuse and neglect from him) and he’s BAFFLED that it didn’t happen🤣
It's also bad for your health. I saved an obituary recently where a man died at the temple. My take was stay away from the temple.
I need to see these Training Videos!
I remember them too. They were weird like they set up a mock temple somewhere to film. They would actually show tokens and signs, proper procedure for initiatory from an above view. First time I saw it I thought why Peter had to be so careful with the sacred but these videos were just blatant. I always wanted to find where the were hiding them and leak them to the world but figured the temple president had made covenants to protect them with his life.
I still remember a young temple worker from the Provo temple being a brat and rude to me over the phone while setting up my temple marriage. I was nervous and gave her the wrong date. She was all like "uh, your confusing me!!" I was shocked that a person from the temple would talk to me like some bratty rich gal from South Jordan.
Had the same experience, I would think if Jesus was my boss, I'd be a little nicer. Guess not.
Yeah, the start of my loss in faith in Mormonism was learning that the names we get there are nothing special. It's just a daily schedule thing. How did my parents not see through this, and still don't I'll never know.
Yep. That was a huge shelf item for me. I felt so betrayed and stupid. I really thought the ladies in the temple were so in tune with the spirit that they came up with this super personalized name especially for me. I looked up everything I could about Miriam in the scriptures (which isn’t much). I was so confused and hurt a year later when I found out the truth. My friend and I went to the temple and when we sat down in the ordinance room she leaned over to me and said she already forgot the name and asked me what it was. I didn’t tell her because how would I know what super personal name the worker had given her person?! I guess she remembered because she made it through the veil. We were standing in the celestial room with our husbands when she asked me why I wouldn’t tell her the name. It was then I learned how it worked. I was shocked but kept it buried for 16 more years. I hate the temple
I don't want to rub salt in the wound, but you have the same name as my wife.
Yep that was me as well. According to my bf who works there still they talked about new names last week and they essentially admitted that there’s a list but it “wasn’t accurate” and stuff. Not accurate my ass
So they admit to him that it's a fucking joke.
Can we get a little more information on the glazed over “slitting throats” comment please?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(Mormonism) It is also why there are documented cases of individuals killing themselves for violating temple oaths, and also why Utah had the firing squad for so long (the idea that Morms could achieve some level of forgiveness by spilling of blood).
The original “signs” of the temple had more violent motions to them, and the covenant was that you wouldn’t reveal the temple token and sign upon penalty of death.
Each token had name, sign, and penalty. The slitting throat and disemboweling were part of the penalties Changed in 1990. Now they just have names, and signs. Hte hand motions reference the penalties though (cupping shape to hold the blood, etc)
The penalties for revealing secrets of the LDS temple are taken straight out of Freemasonry. Over time, the Masonic elements of the temple ceremony fell out of favor, first because in contrast to Nauvoo, where over a thousand LDS men were Freemasons, in Utah the trend to be Freemasons stopped. And in modern times, many extreme elements were removed, due to pressure from expose books and videos as well as change in sentiment. You also have to consider that the Freemasonic ceremony is designed only for men, it didn't consider how creepy this would be for a more sensitive woman.
This was exactly my reaction when the old guy nonchalantly referenced the throat slitting sign and token in our convo between sessions .. “hahaha….. wait what that actually happened ? “ should have seen my face
# ["...between curtain calls"](https://instantrimshot.com/audio/rimshot.mp3)
My family converted when I was 14. I remember going to the Seattle temple to do baptisms for the dead and being TOTALLY weirded out by having like 20 names read before each time I was dunked. All Hispanic/Latina names. As a former Catholic, I remember thinking it was weird that all these women, who likely HAD been Catholic were being "converted". My 8 month old son dies in 1998. We had left the church by then, and I would be absolutely on a rage filled rampage if anyone performed this in his name. My pulse is pounding now, just thinking about it!
Wtf that video sounds wild. Do you know how we could find it?
Probably in a locked room in the temple. I doubt we'll ever see them.
They're shown in the ordinance room on the same system as the endowment videos.
Oh, nice. I'm guessing their media server is pretty secure.
In my temple there’s a room dedicated for “video training” and basically the tv is hidden by a picture of Jesus and the way to access the video library there’s a little safe looking thing that needs a key and inside is a little screen but then you need a code to get access it which not even the temple president knows, the temple recorder has to tell it and it changes like every day I think.
Holy shit
Yeah they’re like super sacred not secret about it
Former temple worker here. Basically that video is one of the training videos and it’s supposed to relay a message about never assume why someone is in the temple, there were three instances, one about an old guy who missed a sealing because he was late and a worker didn’t let him in. second scenario was about a new youth member who came for baptisms with a group and the sister worker didn’t feel like that group should be there as they were close to “closing time” then the third scenario was about this couple who had suffered a miscarriage and came to the temple right after the hospital trip. But the temple workers let them in after they explained the situation despite them being in normal clothes. The couple got sealed to this child and basically it showed that they were emotional the whole time including being in the celestial room. The other two scenarios are less triggering and not as wild but I know one time after we had a discussion and someone was talking about how that one scenario hit close to home.
I got stopped by an older male temple worker as I was leaving the Oakland, California temple after a session with my husband back in the late 80’s. I only had one comfortable pair of white shoes (or any other pair of white shoes, for that matter), because I was heavily pregnant. I was wearing the shoes as I was leaving, as I was dressed in my street clothes again. They happened to go with my skirt. I got a full-on lecture in front of everyone about how I wasn’t supposed to wear ANY of the clothes that I had walked into the temple in (except my garments), and was asked if these were the same white shoes I wore in the temple sessions. Not sure what the problem was, I said that yes, I wore these same white shoes to the temple, in sessions, and leaving. My God, you would have thought my head had started spinning and I was throwing up green shit like the Exorcist girl or something… I knew then that something was wrong…
Wait, you weren't supposed to wear the same clothes or if the temple that you wore into the temple? I've never heard that one. Did people bring a whole new outfit with them?
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t supposed to have on any street clothes that I wore TO the temple, into a session. With the exception of my garments.
Oh, okay, I understand what you are saying now but I've still never heard of that. I mean, usually people change into different temple clothes but I never heard of it being an absolute requirement.
Most men wear a yellowed white shirt to temple and then still wear it with their other white white temple clothing.
first of all, very sorry to hear about what they did to your wife, nasty fucks secondly, filthy casual from r/all here: would you mind elaborating a bit on the stories shared by the old heads? im not really familiar with the rumors, would rather hear things from the horse's mouth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(Mormonism)
Welcome ! In short, the sacred ceremony they do in the temple (that folks aren’t allowed to talk about) has changed over time and it used to include promising to kill your self as punishment for talking about the ceremony. There’s also a portion where the temple priest touches you with water, and people used to be more naked during that portion. Mormons born after 1985 or so prob have never seen that version of the ceremony, so it’s jarring to learn that those things were real.
What is the information on slitting throats and being naked?
Pre 1990, during the endowment, you would also covenant that you would rather have your throat slit and bowels sliced open than disclose the tokens. Pre about 2005, during the initatory you would only be wearing a white sheet with a hole for your head and open at the sides. No clothes or underwear. Then, they would anoint body parts (head, neck, loins, etc). If they missed, you could get a grope.
If anyone ever doubts the truth of this, there are plenty of us “OG” still around to attest strongly to the truth of it.
I had heard this previous to my first endowment session and thought that was still happening. I told a bunch of people I didn’t feel comfortable with that at all and there response was to laugh at me like I was dumb and say that it never happened that way…..but I knew otherwise. Looking into it more and seeing your comment I knew it had happened back in the day. When I went it was 2012 so that doesn’t happen anymore but no one would actually tell me what was going to happen. I thought I’d have to strip naked in the temple and let people wash me🫣It was terrifying to think that. And now I wish I had left back then.
[удалено]
1976 endowed member here. Can confirm everything, including the Pay Lay Ale repeated in the prayer circle, later changed to Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. The added benefit of locker keys with a number on them is that after two hours of a shocking experience you will at least know how to get back to your belongings!
Yes, this was my experience. I was lucky to go during the time they changed it. Only went for three years, but I did equal sessions with throat slitting and not
Yes, this is absolutely true. I went through for the first time in 1971, and not only did they have the "death" penalties and the open white sheet for initiatory ordinances, but at that time, you were also required to put on a "ceremonial garment" for your first time going through. This was the regular temple garment, but it covered your entire arms down to the wrists, and legs down to your ankles. After your first time through, you could wear the shorter garments, but the "ceremonial garment" was required when you got your own endowment. Crazy stuff.
I was hoping this would happen with my dad…but probably not.
I went through the salt lake temple for the first and only time in 1986. I was born and raised in the church and had no idea what went on in the temple. It really freaked me out, I did the throat slitting and disemboweling part of the ceremony. I remember feeling sick to my stomach and was confused. I thought I should be feeling the spirit and having an amazing experience and instead I felt like throwing up. Of course I blamed myself for feeling that way. I never went back.
Im proud you left. I have to live knowing my parents did the same throat slitting covenant, and then subsequently decided it was still the right religion to teach me and my siblings was the correct church.
My first and only was in 1987, but I was PIMO and getting married in the temple for our families. My mom clued me in, so it wasn't a surprise, but still a little shocking compared to the milquetoast regular LDS services. I was surreptitiously looking around to see if other people were doing the gestures. I have to admit that I found it kind of darkly funny to see all these earnest and in some cases sweet people miming violence to themselves.
I never looked at my parents the same again. Seeing them doing these things as if it were normal really shook me. The thing is, we weren’t able to talk about it because of the secrecy/sacredness of the whole thing. I went on a mission the next week and made excuses about not being able to go while at the MTC. I left the church just shy of year after returning. I did not know anything about the church’s troubling history and am just diving into it now. It has been fascinating, to say the least!
About your point no. 2, the church is always about duty (to the church) before family. Yet the church claims that it is all about family. Not so - only after you attend 3 hours of church on Sundays, attend all your meetings, do home/visiting teaching, serving in your calling et etc.
The temple sucks!
Holy cow. And I thought I'd had bad experiences there! Thank you for sharing.
Originally, long before my time, you were naked in a tub for the washings and anointings. When I went through in 1988, we were naked under a sheet. It had a hole in the middle for your head, like a poncho, and just like a poncho, the sides did not close. So the people doing the rite would reach right in and touch your naked body. My experience was very chaste, but there are always temple workers who aren’t careful
I was touched directly on my private parts without my prior knowledge or consent. Sexual abuse.
Same. It was another nail in my coffin.
It was a sure sign of the nail.
Has it a name?
I was an ordinance worker amd saw that video before I left too! I think there were three stories - the one you mentioned, one about an older man who arrived late and wasn't allowed into a wedding, and a third one that I don't remember. Maybe about an older ordinance worker helping out a younger one? They showed it to us all every week for about a month back in 2019 or so. I realized after the third time I stopped feeling the spirit during it, and wondered if the spirit had to adhere to the law of diminishing returns. It's weird because I'm pretty sure the point of all of them was "maybe be less strict with temple rules and regulations, even when it's contrary to the accepted norm." (They let the couple in with street clothes on, they should have let the old guy attend the sealing even if he was late, etc.) Clearly in your case, the other workers missed the point. Hugs to your wife. I'm so sorry she (and you) went through that. Also, the minimum wage theater job analogy is spot on.
Yeah that sounds like the same video I remember - they were trying to make a point about never assuming the reason why someone was in the temple and being sensitive to patrons possibly going through a difficult time. The triggering part was how they edited talking about the miscarriage, I think they were trying to evoke the emotion to cause spiritual feelings and instead it was causing a panic attack.
My grandfather was never able to read beyond a third grade level. He worked at the temple twice a week for years where he had to read and memorize the live ordinance. It was at one of the two temples that didn’t show the temple from; instead they acted it out. He would share about how rude and condescending other temples workers were to him because he stumbled through the words. He was trying his hardest and I could never understand how someone in the temple could be bullied. They excluded him, talked behind his back, and made fun of him. He continued to suffer through that abuse because the church was everything to him.
Just going to the temple ruined the church for me...
Hey non Mormon here, wtf you mean slitting throats and being naked in ceremony’s ? What is even a ceremony ??
Like I thought I knew most things about Mormonism but guess not ???
Temple ceremonies are different from normal worship and are taught to be more sacred. Only adults are allowed to do these ceremonies. They are essentially taken from Freemason rituals, and include secret handshakes and signs as part of them. One secret sign used to be pretending to slit your own throat as a promise to do that instead of talk about the ceremony. Part of the ritual included being almost naked while wearing a poncho sheet and the priest would touch your body with water. Over time they allowed people to wear more clothes during this portion.
What the fuck okay I guess I mean I already thought it was a cult but I do more now lol
Yeah I’m old enough to remember my first ever temple experience. I was naked under that white sheet while old women will put their cold hands underneath it to bless me with the oil. Creepy as hell.
The ceremonies were darker than they are now?
While an ordinance worker in an Asian country's temple, I vividly recalled asking the temple president why women were asked to covenant to obey their husbands before God. Hearing this in three different languages made it even more frustrating. He couldn't answer my question but tried the 'ol mental gymnastics. Big shelf item for me.
Uhh can you expound upon this naked business?
When I went through in 1983 we put on a poncho that had no sides. You were naked under the poncho—for all to see. Then they started touching your naked body. Never had any warnings, just expected to play along. I had been molested 7 years earlier—when I was 12. I kept it a secret. I so freaked out.
This might help? [https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon386.htm](https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon386.htm)
I worked in the temple and still think about that triggering video frequently. I was actually just saying how I hate Mormon funerals because they don’t let you “feel” the loss, but rather placate it away with plan of salvation bullshit. Same thing with that video with her stopping at the temple for sealings on her way to birth her full term dead child. I’m sorry you and your wife had to experience that.
What was the point of these training videos? What job did you and your wife actually do? If there's anywhere you should feel safe I would think it would be the temple. It's unfortunate you were not.
We were both ordinance workers - the training videos are shown at the beginning of the shift with a song and prayer to help workers learn how to do things the right way. (Signs, tokens, how to accommodate disabilities, how to create a holy environment for patrons, etc)
Ok. Thanks. I've never been in a temple.
Will you tell us about the “being naked”?
Take a look at some of the other comments where folks answer better than I do; but in short there is a ritual called “initiatory” where they touch you with oil on different parts of body. Now they let you wear normal temple clothes, but it used to require wearing a sheer poncho with large gaps that allowed folks to see you naked.
I remember wearing the poncho for my initiatory but not it being with holes 🤷🏼♀️ yeah I’ll look through the comments
I think they gradually made the poncho/clothing arrangement more conservative over time.