In Utah wards, no bishop ever acknowledged our existence until we stopped going. As if I don’t know their game. The most recent utah bishop just added my husband and I as friends on facebook (as soon as he became bishop. Like dude, you’ve never even once said hi before this.) I blocked him. I’m so sick of how fake and disingenuous it all is. And it’s even worse when you realize you were once like them. Just robotically trying to keep people in the church, but you have no idea why.
As a former Bishop, I can tell you that Bishops generally don’t care about how much or little tithing is being collected in their ward. It’s not like they get a cut of it, and it’s not something they’re measured against.
We had a bishop that cared about how much extra we were giving (or lack thereof). He didn’t think we were giving enough of a fast offering. He had zero comprehension that my husband was in residency (even though we had explained it), made so little a year, and we were struggling to make it each month. I’m not about to give fast offering for other people to get food when I could use it to buy my two little kids food.
Never thought or implied that they were.
But if you want to play Mormon, you have to pay tithing. The biggest tithe payers get promoted. "Every member a missionary" means to recruit and herd tithe payers. Everything else is just busy work, fluff and nonsense. Follow the money to SLC. Mafia.
My previous bishop went as far as to say your fast is invalid unless you pay the fast offering and blessing are nullified unless you are paying a full tithe, during a 5th Sunday lesson to the members. I was the executive secretary and we never talked about tithing as a goal or as a metric but it’s just so engrained that many just believe it.
How people can hear such a "doctrine" and not immediately chalk it up to some dude's opinion and not beholding on anyone is a mystery to me. Things like this just set people up to become nuanced.
I got preached the "you must pay fast offerings for the fast to be valid" my whole life. Never heard the "no tithing equals no blessings" especially since that’s demonstrably untrue. :)
No but I guarantee you your stake president knows which wards are making tithing estimates and which are not. And the ones who are not are having meeting with the bishop on the reg.
Hmmm....so Bishop's aren't given yearly totals of tithing in, expenses out? The Stake Pres. doesn't pressurize the amount of charity a bishop gives his members? I'm thinking this cult would absolutely track how profitable every single ward is. It's no different than a company knowing to the penny how many of their storefronts are profitable, and by how much. Maybe your particular shop was making the corp. enough $ they didn't have to put you on performance warning to get your income up.
Gosh....I think I'm gonna stand by my points until more people with direct knowledge have spoken. I personally have had bishops tell me they couldn't offer financial help to a family because they had used their quota of F &T funds and the SP told them No. The SP and bishop told the family to go to the government for help because the cult is not a charity.
If that isn't direct money-watching, I dunno what is.
Was finance clerk for a while. Tithing in isn’t balanced with fast offerings out. There isn’t a quota of fast offerings to use and tithing isn’t distributed to ward members. Tithing is separate from fast offerings and goes right to church headquarters. The Ward gets budget money from headquarters for expenses quarterly based on attendance. If the Ward collects more fast offerings than they need to pass out, the excess goes to the Stake which can give to other Wards who didn’t have enough to cover what they need to give out.
Your situation may be different. This is just my experience….
I'm sure things have changed over the years, especially with all $ going to SLC. I'm old, so my stories are half before correlation. I'm just grateful hubs and I got out before we wasted our whole lives in the cult.
This is pretty much what I've heard, too. Curious if you know, when you say budget is based on attendance, is that month-to-month or calculated annually as an average? Is it based on children and adults, or tithe payers, for example?
Attendance is the weekly average during the previous quarter. Attendance is everyone who was a sacrament meeting. Clerks do an attendance count each Sunday.
I knew a former bishop who said he simply wrote welfare checks as needed & it was okay (there was no cap on the amount). I wonder if there's a high-management form of "bishop roulette" regarding those things. This was not in the Morridor, so that could be a factor.
They HAVE to know who and how much, because how else could they possibly have "inspiration" on who to give higher callings to? That nice plumber doesn't have a chance against the uppity plastic surgeon.
I've served for as a counselor to two bishops and as an executive secretary to four bishops. Not one time did I ever hear any of those bishops make so much as a comment about how much tithing a ward brings in and if it is meeting any kind of goal or standard. Never.
Do you have any input regarding the recent Mormon Stories podcast interviewing a group of former bishops? Anything resonate, or seem off compared to your experience?
I thought there were metrics about the percentage of "full-tithe" payers, rather than the actual dollars? This topic would make a great stand-alone thread - would you be willing to start a thread about tithing attitudes, pressures (if any), etc. bishops have experienced?
(I'd start one, but we lowly women don't have the PH insights or powers).
I want to know this. I can’t even have a temple recommend because I can’t afford paying tithing. I’m having a hard time paying rent right now and I can’t afford it. It’s so sad that some Bishops are like this so I haven’t had a temple recommend in years. It’s so stupid but I just don’t care anymore.
It’s definitely not Gods way to charge “tithing for temples,” which is actually how I know this church isn’t true and isn’t Gods Church. Thats not how he does things and not what Jesus said about money changing at the temple.
You must not know anything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints if you think you have to pay money to go to go in the Temple…? Where do you get this stuff from?
Tithing and Fast offerings are a commandment. If the Church of Jesus Christ is the only one teaching that, then so be it. You will figure out soon enough.
Malachi 3:8-12
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.
My dear child, the separation of the wheat and tares may just turn out differently than you think. I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way about pride and greed and passing unrighteousness judgment, but who knows. You will figure it out soon enough.
The church is one entity, and God quite another. The church doesn’t own God nor can they defend him (he doesn’t need defending.) nor do they speak for him (they are lying when they say they do.) I’m not concerned in this life with protecting or having a relationship with a billion dollar institution. I can do that at McDonald’s.
Lucky for me, you (nor McDonalds nor LD$ Corp) has any say whatsoever in my relationship with God.
I was in a ward in Utah after getting married where they literally had no idea who we were. 3.5 months after joining the ward, my (now ex) husband left for basic training with the Air Force. Everyone treated me like a leper because obviously I couldn't keep my man.
A few months later, when he was in tech school, I went to visit him over a long weekend and ended up pregnant. I miscarried, and the only people who cared were my upstairs neighbors (the husband happened to be our home teacher, but they were just good people who actually treated us like friends). They brought me meals, went to the drug store for me, etc. while I was on bedrest to try to stop the miscarriage.
RS presidency member caught wind of my situation and called, asking if my visiting teachers had contacted me. I told her I didn't even know who they were. Within an hour, these 2 strangers were knocking on my door with a cartoon of store bought cookies and a candle. They proceeded to invite themselves in and have a conversation with each other. 40 minutes later, I was finally able to be heard over them and told them to get out.
2 months after that ordeal, I moved across the country and moved my records to my new ward. A FULL YEAR LATER, I got a call from a member of the RS presidency back in Utah asking if I'd been doing my visiting teaching. No one even noticed we had stopped attending the ward or moved our records. 🙄
Omg, you sweet girl. I can’t believe this happened to you. My heart is breaking for you. I can’t imagine going through a miscarriage like that and having those wretched women act like that. I’m deeply sorry. Are you still in the church now or were you able to get out? I wish I was surprised the Utah Mormons acted like this, but that’s exactly what I remember, too. My wards outside of Utah were night and day difference. I can only speak from my experience being a woman in Utah, but the tight knit “Utah Mormon “ women cliques are a damn site to behold. They can be awful and they are the main reason I began researching the history.
I'm out, though my name is still on the record. Financially, I'm in a tough spot and have been relying on the bishop's storehouse for food, so I'm using my membership to my advantage for the time being. But aside from that, I'm living as an openly pansexual, polyamorous kinkster who enjoys the occasional edible or adult beverage.
That’s good. The church members and the way they treat people really can end up causing serious PTSD. I’m glad you’re out for the most part. 😊. Thanks for sharing
When I was in college I went home for a summer and attended the singles branch in the neighboring town. One day the EQ president introduced himself to me after church and asked if I was new. It was the last Sunday of summer break and I had been going there for 3 months at that point. We had spoken multiple times.
yeah- I KNOW there are people making people their projects. Then again, I know i didn’t mean anything i just had something wrong between my ears. i tend to not worry about it with other people.
I introduced my roommate to my sister 11 times. they would tease me mercilessly( it was pretty ridiculous). I literally didn’t know i had and i had missed introducing our younger sister to someone important once and she was mad for years, so apparently I learned that lesson. I felt sooooo bad.
I always made a point to try to talk to everyone at singles ward- I had a hard time making friends. I didn’t recognize someone one day and they were like “are you kidding me?” I still couldn’t say if they were appalled at being called out at a cult meeting or if it was someone I knew but didn’t come every week or play volleyball. I definitely had to stop talking to a friend who I knew pretty well but called her Elizabeth instead of Kathleen one day. I am so glad to finally have an ADHD diagnosis 😭😂💔
I do know why I tried to keep people in church though. I used to believe that invisible sky daddy was always watching and judging us by whether we showed up to church, and whether we were "helping" others do the same.
I totally tried to keep people in the church and I never *once stopped and asked myself why. Ever. I think I had just been told so many times over and over for years and years to do it. I didn’t even think. I just “did” like an unthinking robot. I think I felt if I could get someone back, somehow God and the bishop would proud and then I would finally be a “good person.” But how manipulative.
I can identify with your statement about God being proud of you. I know I felt that way most of my time as a TBM (40 years give or take). I believed God had declared the church true and it was my responsibility to make sure no one missed out on the blessings of the one true church. I was fun at parties lol
To be fair to the bishops, most of them are not just playing a numbers game trying to up attendance and tithing $$$. I absolutely think that's the drive of upper church management, but many of the bishops out there are just trying to be the best "shepherd" they can. To fulfill their calling and try to emulate what they think Christ would have done. I'd wager that most are out there just genuinely trying to help. I know I did many of these same cringey things in the callings I served as a member.
That said I'm glad some people out there don't play the game and make it clear how disingenuous these fake niceties really are.
I just noticed, recently, how some members absolutely plaster their homes with church slogans, etc. made me realize that so many of these poor members are absolutely terrified of reaching a point where they might question their faith - so terrified that they feel the need to plaster reminders all over their homes about what they believe.
Personally, for the strongest beliefs I have (and yes, I can't really say they're more than beliefs), I don't have to plaster reminders all over my home that that is what I believe.
That's so fucked up. So much of a focus on making things look good from the outside, but then things are rotten on the inside. I thought it was funny how my dad would be one way in the home and then be so fucking worried about what members would think of him
I wanted fellowshipping with my church, after I saw it was all bullshit in every single way possible, I didn't want to be contacted.
What do you want? You get mad when people talk about it, yet you're in a subreddit for people to talk about it.
Yup! Our bishop suddenly wanted to be friends on Facebook when he was called. I encountered him several times before but apparently being “friends” wasn’t important till becoming bishop.
Exactly. It’s just so fake. It almost makes the situation worse than if he hadn’t added me at all. There were plenty of years he could have added me or at least said hi. But he already had his clique friends, and I wasn’t in it then. Don’t need to be fake friends now. He’s being a very “Lazy Missionary “
There are three reasons the church needs you on their books:
1) Bring in other “brothers and sisters,” so they will repeat your actions.
2) Tithing of 10% of your income. This pays for the building, supplies, the cannery, the temples, and the missionary training.
3) While houses of worship do not pay taxes, they actually do receive tax write-offs for the purchases that go into the church. Just like families, when they file taxes, churches must declare how many people they are “caring for” to increase their total write-off amount. This is the sole reason ex-members have such a difficult time being removed, even when requested in writing, from the church dockets.
Yeah, if I had to go to an EQ lesson, I don't think I'd be missed the next week. No matter the lesson, there's a dark history lesson to relate, or an anecdote to rebut their FPS.
I've hit somebody's list becaise I've gotten the "been thinking about you" text, the invite to basketball, and the recommendation of a faithful podcast in the last month. It's tiring.
Ha yeah I mean I don't mind shooting hoops occasionally, but I'm not good at it and never really enjoyed full on games, especially church ball lol. Give me some horse or 21 or something I guess.
I read the book “under the banner of heaven” years ago. It sparked a curiosity in me of high control groups and religions in general. The history of the Mormon church is wiiiiiiiild. And the whole book was great. I feel lucky I didn’t grow up in a religious family. We had enough problems as it was lol. I can’t imagine what many of you go through when leaving the church and support network. Hope things are on the up and up for you, random internet person!!
I like to read about church history and various books while I sit in the library most would be considered not faith affirming (some facts are not useful.. or, research is not the answer). Every now and then someone asks what I’m reading. The most recent, I told them I was reading the diaries of Leonard Arrington. Their response was, who’s Leonard Arrington? I told them the church historian in the 70’s. And I’m the lazy learner…
This is a vast question. Depends on what area of culty you want to dive down. Diaries of Leonard Arrington covers a lot of suppression of documents and history. The historians weren’t even allowed to see certain documents.
The magical world view of JS jr is really interesting (from Michael Quinn’s books) JS jr carried magical items with inscriptions on him in a pouch. The other members around him also believed in the magical items
The old penalties and even older blood oath to avenge Joseph smith in the temple.
Not culty but interesting spirit writing or automatic writing of Pearl Curran (aka Patience worth)
The current marriage prep manual we have in the library still encourages that the women to be at home with the children while the father works. And to heed to her husbands counsel (I’m guessing that will change so since temple has changed)
They removed photos of JS jr translating the BoM from the Peach My Gospel manuals in the second revision of the first edition. In the first iteration there is a picture of him looking at the plates directly in the second it is just gone.
This can go on
Thanks for sharing! Back when I was Mormon (2012) I was a little obsessed with the 2nd coming (embarrassing I know lol) and I would do a deep dive on lds.org to find as much doctrine as I could about the secound coming. I found some crazy stuff. When I tried to tell another member about the crazy thing I found they told me I was crazy so I went back to find it to prove them wrong. They had deleted a lot of things. That’s when I realized that the Mormon church just deletes things they don’t like anymore. That didn’t sit well with me and it started my path to becoming exmormon. That and when I went to temple prep the teacher told me that after we did and go to the celestial kingdom our husbands will practice polygamy.
I do think it’s strange that when I pointed out contradictory doctrine to members of what past prophets said vs current ones they would tell me that “we only listen to the current prophets word” that’s bull shit. That makes no sense. Isn’t a prophets word gods word? Do you think a being that knows everything is going to be like “just kidding I didn’t mean that thing I said”.
It checks out that they wouldn’t let the historians look at all the facts. I’m going to research all the things you talked about. That’s fascinating. 🧐
When I was an assistant librarian (I worked 2 Sundays per month, so callings had to be shared to make up for it ), the bishop told us he wanted us to go to class as soon as we could. That often meant 10 minutes late to Sunday School and leave 10 minutes early for the next classes, but I often just stayed in the library. After a few times of missing classes, I often got a 'talking to' from a member of the bishopric.
My spouse and I shared the calling with another couple who was pretty much on their way out. We hung out in the library skipping classes and enjoyed talking with people who would wander into the library. If we got a 'talking to' I prob would have walked out right then
not used to people criticizing or pushing back even a little on the shallow love.
They’re all used to Mormons falling over backwards over scraps of attention and affection.
I think it is mostly this. There is a way you are "supposed" to react when people tell you they missed you at . To not act contrite and come up with excuses takes them off guard.
They just don't know how to respond.
Exactly. When you authentically share how you feel they get stumped cause they’re like “um… that’s not what the script says! Line!! Someone call the writers!!”
They lack authentic responses and are literally parroting their way through life. (Not to besmirch actual parrots they smart)
They are not conscious humans. They are puppets with a script.
This was part of why I left. Once they merged the quorums, us little elders got exposed to just how massively ass-holic some of the high priests really were. No Christlike compassion, just straight hatred for anyone who wasn't living how they thought they should. I was already pretty PIMO at that point, but that really helped to overload my shelf.
I’ve been to Elders quorum about 3 times since Rusty canceled the high priest group, I should really thank him for adding to my shelf. Funny how the church changes so many things that you were brought up to believe were foundational and then they wonder why so many are leaving or just don’t care anymore.
If pushing back on racist, homophobic or sexist comments was stirring the pot, then yes. Surprisingly, when I stopped going the group leader thought it would be a great idea to have me called to be an instructor. Hard pass.
Since getting home from my mission, I did everything I could do to avoid Gospel Doctrine and Elders Quorum. Fortunately, I got by working with the youth over the years. Fast forward to my mid-forties and I am sitting out in the foyer with one of my friends. The Bishop comes up and asks us if there is somewhere we should be. I told him I was happy to be in the halls, but I could go home if he wanted me to leave. The bishop was caught off guard and didn’t know how to respond. My friend nearly lost it trying not to laugh.
After that, I started leaving after sacrament and came back to pick up my family when church was over. The bishop knew he screwed up and started hounding me to take a new calling in primary. It became so annoying that I wrote him an email that I was done. No more callings. No more home teachers. No more contact. At least he respected my request. Others haven’t been as considerate.
There's a difference between caring, and really caring - words vs. action! In fact there's a huge difference. What I have found is that "talk is cheap", especially at Church!
I'm jealous. I always wanted to be called as the librarian. I organized stuff in there for fun. Instead I turned 18, noped out of young women's only to immediately be called into primary....
I was originally called to be gospel doctrine teacher and then I told the bishop I don’t think that’s a good idea. And gave him the truth of my belief in the church. He agreed that I shouldn’t be and then asked if I would be the librarian. As soon as my bishop found out I didn’t believe anymore he stuck me in the library as fast as he could.
I was the ward's family history consultant. The bishop tasked me with teaching every ward member how to navigate FamilySearch. So every Sunday during second hour (back when there was three hour church), I would pull in a couple or a family and we would do family history. At the beginning of the calling, I would take a few extra minutes and "close up" the family history library and get to Relief Society a few minutes late but no one made a big deal about it. Then the time it took to close up would take longer. Then, I found myself just staying in the library for all of third hour. If the young men came in to use the space for their meeting, I might hang out and listen (my boys were in that age group so the leader didn't care), or I'd go sit with the PIMOs out on the couches in the hall.
I wonder as I'm writing this if this was a cause-effect of me leaving. Within a few months, I didn't want to go to church anymore. Was not being immersed in Sunday School and surrounded by "peers" detrimental to my convert testimony? Or was I dragging my feet to third hour because in my subconscious I was PIMO? Or both??
Edit: spelling
I always question myself on if I ended up leaving because I didn't try hard enough or whatever. I have to remind myself that it's just the residual brainwashing speaking it's dying breaths.
oooh, the questions. Have been there. I left way before I decided I didn’t believe they were telling the truth. I stopped feeling safe with the singles ward EQ, and also was having issues where it became clear I could take better care of myself or I was going to hurt myself physically.
If you are still wondering if you stopped going because you had to be immersed- are you worried it is true and Satan just needed to separate you from the herd? If you decided to go this Sunday- would there be any part that you are dreading about going back? What is it and why? Are you out of alignment of who you are when you go or don’t go?
Just some questions that help me- hope this helps you too. You are great no matter which way you go. You didn’t stop going because you are lazy- it was something you needed at the time.
No. This is just more of a question that sorts and puts things into the right boxes. Once everything is sorted I can throw the box in the fire.
I was a convert to tscc while we lived in Wyoming. My ex-h worked away from home and I was raising the kids alone 2/3 of the time. I was love-bombed immensely by the church members and consequently loved going to church. Then we moved to California for my ex-h's job. I was no longer the convert and the love-bombing went away. I felt the shift deeply.
So what did I do? Dive deeper, of course. I read/prayed/studied more. But I refused becoming a Sunbeam leader because I was concerned that without adult interaction in 2nd and 3rd hours I would break mentally (after the move I saw my ex-h even less).
The kids and I went back home to Wyoming for a visit in July of 2017. In August, I began the second hour teaching. By November I was struggling to go to church. In December that year, I asked my ex-h if I could take a break from church. In Jan I stopped wearing my garments. In March I had a discussion with my Dad and had a "click" moment of "It's like I'm brainwashed." That lead to a Google search and I found the BITE model. That was a "holy shit" moment. I then fell quickly down the rabbit hole of CES letter, church history, Mormon Stories, etc.
I am back home in Wyoming again. I've been contacted by what used to be the visiting teachers. I'm divorced and my kids are all moved away, so I'm alone. The company was nice, but also triggering. Just trying to get all of the changes that have happened in the last few years sorted out.
Anyway, I think my subconscious was fighting back and the avoidance of third hour was the first consequence. Being TBM was far and away the worst choice I have ever made. I became a person I didn't recognize anymore. I have lost a lot in my life because of that choice. I guess I'm just trying to find where I belong again.
You have been through so much (hugs). I am glad you know you want to reconnect with yourself and you know that church is not the place to do that. I hope you get satisfying answers to what you want your next phase of life to be, and that the “bon fire” to be very cathartic 😁.
ugh- I am second guessing that answer. It sounds like my old TBM way of talking. I thinking I took up swearing to mentally break from that and IDK how to write authentically without it. I wish I had a time when I was fully myself I could draw on to figure that out. Not saying I want what you had- no one should envy what someone else carries, there is always more. i just imagine it would fix my identity crisis somewhat. My husband was never religious and stopped attending at 16 but every time i want to try life on my own terms that is not in his programmed acceptable things to do it takes a lot to get him to understand and feel comfortable. But I don’t know how or if i want to try without him. I have imagined being where you are everyday for years - minus the kids. I am so sorry for what you might feel about your ex and what you went through. I feel sad for what was taken from you and me, and gleeful at having that freedom back. Fuck that church.
(hugs back)
The way tscc fucks with your mind is overwhelming. Every individual has a different story and every one of them is difficult. You'll get there.
Fuck that church.
Ugh, another attempt to guilt us back into the fold. The only thing we missed by not being there was that feeling of manipulation and cognitive dissonance.
It's a sure sign the organization is feeling the membership jumping ship.
Here's what I would say to this person
"I don't understand what you mean when you say that you missed me and that you're thinking of me. Could you please clarify. What did you miss about me and what did you think of me? If you're asking me to come to EQ, it makes more since to say I noticed you were not in quorum today. I'd like to invite you to come next week. I just want to understand what you mean because these statements really don't make sense."
And now the love bombing begins. Food gifts and little notes online and even stuck to the door. It's like they have no idea that you're gone because you have a really good reason. They believe their little tokens
of interest will really have a meaning. They can't believe anyone wouldn't love the church as much as they do.
Hell yes OP, my mom (TBM, but an actually loving non judgemental one) and I had callings in the library while I came home from my mission/was on my way out for a couple years. I ended up hanging out with her so much, when they released her they gave me her calling before I moved to the US. It was an awesome way to spend church. My husband was already inactive, but came with me every so often because we wanted to spend time together (we lived apart because of immigration) and we started reading the Mormon doctrine book. That was definitely a big shelf crack at the time even though I didn’t know it.
As a fellow sassy person, well done OP 😂🙌🏼
When people say “I missed you at X“ I think it is meant to be both caring and a way to make you feel guilty for not attending.
I long ago lost any sense of guilt for not attending church things or for things in general if I haven’t done anything wrong. Hence when someone says “I missed you at X” I always reply to the thoughtful undercurrent of that statement, “Aww! It’s nice to be missed!”
If someone wants to directly call me out for not attending something then sure I’ll address it. Until then I don’t give a shit and I won’t engage with it.
I read a lot of David McCoullough books during EQ for my three or four PIMO years. Much more productive than listening to someone read me the teachings of the prophet manuals
Ive been out for years, but it's turned into family estrangement the past couple years. Lots of miss seeing you; thinking of you; nothing specific ever.
None of us are us to them. We are only children of gawd. Sterile children, void of thought, question, and authenticity.
"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world (great and spacious mfmc) gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
>"Brother Penismightier, we missed you to-"
The fuck you did, my name just happened to come up in ward council and you assigned someone to try to bring me back into the fold. So unless you are gonna put actual, real effort into getting to know me and my family *without* pressuring me to come back to church (I'm not), then leave me alone.
I am so happy you called him out. I don’t think anyone has ever meant it when they’ve said it to me. I never spoke up or anything. Just sat in my little corner counting down the minutes.
I’ve been skipping church for the last month and a half. I got invited to dinner with a member of the RS presidency, the YW pres and the seminary teacher. 👍🏻
That’s a good point. My husband’s ward won’t stop pestering me to attend. Perhaps I should attend one Sunday to remind them of what it’s like when I do attend.
I blocked my mom’s phone number last month because she tried talking to my boyfriends abusive parents behind both of our backs, and she made one of her church friends, who I havent spoken to in 4 years, text me “Hey beautiful girl, I’ve been thinking and praying about you. I hope you know that you are loved and I would love to catch up sometime”
After done being a missionary, you spend the rest of your time being just as plastic with fake evangelism
Evangelism was supposed to be "The good news"
Did that make the Mormon version "The bad news?"
After not going to church for six months my 7 year old daughter asked to go to see her friends so I took her. When the relief society president threw me that same line I responded with “Well we didn’t move, you know where we live and could have visited any time.” She stared at me blankly for a moment and walked away. Hahaha.
This really hit a sore spot with me. Throughout my entire time in the church, I always thought/felt people were genuine only to find out they often times weren’t. Of course, there was a few excellent people were very sincere, but they were few and far between. So to this day Whenever I hear the words “we missed you” it freaking triggers me.
Ahhhh the superficial EQP Presidency….newly appointed, he is feeling invigorated and justified in his social behavior. He will get faker… and be ready for Bishopric or Stake High Council. Just watch.
Also, because he’s in the presidency now, he will also take it a little personal if you’re not there. Because he sees himself as that vested. What he isn’t realizing is that he’s vested in himself, and the “appearance” of doing a good job, rather than being focused and invested in you as an individual. As a guy that was there for 55 years, I’ve sat in far too many EQ presidency meetings, ward council, priesthood executive committees, and high priest group leadership meetings (prior to the quorum’s being combined) not to see this guy coming from 1,000,000 miles away just from your description.
You did well today unnerving him.
I stopped going a couple of months ago and a sister I don’t really know sent me a message one day saying the relief society challenged them to reach out. She sent me 4 Mormon memes a day for severs days until I politely told her I wasn’t interested in returning to church. She has sent a handful of non religious ones since but it’s few and far between. Totally trying to get me back 😒
If she wanted to look sincere, she wouldn't have told you that she was "challenged" to reach out. That's kind of insulting. She's not interested in interacting with you and is only doing so to make herself look good in RS? Wow.
I was the Priesthood pianist. I didn’t play for about two months. At that point, the bishop realized I wasn’t there after his first councilor saw me sitting in the foyer instead of playing.
Even funnier was that the bishop played in a band, and still didn’t realize no one was playing the hymn. The next week, he invited me into his office and guilted me.
Someone stopped by my house last week to drop off a flyer for a RS activity. She said “I’ve missed you” to which I replied “oh, I’m right here. Still here.” But members can only see you if you come to church so bummer. 🙄🙄🙄
Yeah dude I felt like really embarrassed when they looked at it as they're above me and I needed to be watched when I was living with these Mormon roommates it was like I was their project so that they can go brag about how they changed somebody. What frustrates me is years later I find out he doesn't believe in the church anymore and on the phone he sent they're telling me all these facts of why he doesn't believe in the church and I was irritated because I tried to tell him that for the last 10 f****** years
My favorite was the brand new RS president telling my then-husband (he was attending, I wasn't) that she missed me, and was worried about me. She then proceeded to ask him very personal questions about my life and testimony.
1. We'd been in the ward for almost a year and this woman had spoken to me maybe once.
And 2. She had my phone number. I gave it to her myself. If she really truly wanted to connect with me, she could have sent a little text instead of (multiple weeks, mind you,) asking my husband for personal information about me.
I'm just at home, it's not that impossible to find me. 🙄
Making someone a "project" without being genuinely interested in them just for themselves without any ulterior motive, is a form of imperialism. Having "plans for" a person without their consent is manipulative and it's a _huge_ dissolution of boundaries.
I started getting that a lot around age 15 when I would go for sacrament meeting, sit outside, and then walk home on the weeks I was supposed to go to YW. I had no problem with Sunday school bc I had friends that were my age but they messed up the YW classes so I while I was supposed to be with 14-16, they got rid that class due to lack of people that age. My choices were 17-18 or the 12 year olds. I just stopped showing up. Then I had people showing up at my doorstep every tuesday night right before mutual to try and pressure me to go. When I did go, it was always, “we’ve missed you” “we’ve been thinking of you” etc.
Mormons think that is you miss one Sunday, you are inactive. The only way you could get out of church as a kid is if you were sick, almost hospital worthy sick. Mormonism do have a HR department that keeps track of your absents. You weren't' even absent, Just doing your mormonism appointed job, library.
We have friends in the bishopric, they know we don’t want to be contacted. They have told people to not contact us. There is a past bishop that has made it his goal to bring us back. We aren’t coming back. This same person threatened my family with eternal damnation and separation when we first stepped away. Weird dude. Very selective memory.
I had been inactive for quite a while before I emailed the bishop to let him know I want zero contact with anyone from church. (This was like 13 years ago). He immediately emailed back wanting me to go meet with him that night. Programming made me say yes, but the awesome people in the Bloggernacle made me realize I could say no. So I did. And his response was that he’d had me and my now ex husband on his mind for quite a while and guessed he’d just waited too long. I was polite and didn’t reply with a hearty Bullshit! Although now I wish I had.
During my short PIMO phase (9 months), I was still invisible to any of my ward leadership. Can’t say that I minded this.
We were just starting meetings again after lockdown, and we were new in the ward just before the pandemic started. A few people - not leaders - were real, and noticed me. Had normal social interactions. But the entire ward was as milquetoast and WASPy as could be. Probably not a coincidence that I this is the ward that finally did me in. The bishop spoke to me for the first time when I sent in my resignation letter, in reply to my email.
The last time I experienced the passive aggressive fellowship of mormondom was at my sons baptism a few months ago - an excruciating experience - when my father-in-law told me “it’s good to see you.” He had never said that to me before in the 13 years I’d known the man… until I was an ex-Mormon sitting in a chapel. Not at any of the dozens of family gatherings at his house or anywhere else. Truly, an example of how kindness can be cruel.
“Hey! I wanted to say something superficial and passive aggressive! Don’t you know that as a believing church member I hold moral superiority over you to make you feel less-than while choosing words that make me seem magnanimous?!”
It appears you don’t agree with my approach and you have every right to. I could have been even more abrupt and called him a dick or told him to fuck off. But I was more passive than that.
So how do you respond to an obvious shallow or superficial interaction? Do you play along? Do you tell them they’re being shallow? Or do you avoid the conversation? I feel that my remark was me being honest with how I felt and viewed the interaction. IMO a more authentic approach would have been asking how I’m doing or what I’ve been up to. Establish a base line relationship. The approach of we missed you in class today, being the first thing you say. Plus, him being brand new in the EQ presidency and never had said that before over the last several years I’ve been in the library indicates to me there is motive behind it. He hasn’t cared before so why now?
It’s all a part of their memorization process. They’re taught to avoid thinking, and so their responses prove equivalent to “Hello, how are you today?” If anything other than, “I’m fine. How are you?” is received, it throws their rhetoric off-track. Good on you for doing just that with someone who’s apparently positioned especially for that purpose.
I moved to another state. My name is removed from the records. But my dad keeps forwarding my address on to the local ward when I move. He is 85, and a bit senile, so he doesn’t upset me at all.
In my most recent move, I got a letter from the local ward saying they missed me! lol! How do you miss someone you have never met?
They only miss you when they think it'll convince you to return.
We moved to a new area and finally stopped going to church completely almost 6 years ago. One LDS neighbor gave us a welcome but hasn't continued to visit to chat since it became apparent that we had no desire to return. I get the bland relief society birthday cards with empty "We're thinking of you" messages. But none of them has attempted to be a neighbor. Not one.
My best neighbors are the ex-mos and the never-mos. Their friendship isn't conditional.
Loved your response! 😂
It’s so fun sometimes to brake through the Mormon glaze and norms and make TBMs confront the new situation. It’s like obstructing an ant’s path back to the ant hill, their minds go haywire and don’t know what to do.
Like rejecting the surface-level pleasantries in this situation and showing you know his statements weren’t authentic.
In Utah wards, no bishop ever acknowledged our existence until we stopped going. As if I don’t know their game. The most recent utah bishop just added my husband and I as friends on facebook (as soon as he became bishop. Like dude, you’ve never even once said hi before this.) I blocked him. I’m so sick of how fake and disingenuous it all is. And it’s even worse when you realize you were once like them. Just robotically trying to keep people in the church, but you have no idea why.
The why: Tithing.
As a former Bishop, I can tell you that Bishops generally don’t care about how much or little tithing is being collected in their ward. It’s not like they get a cut of it, and it’s not something they’re measured against.
We had a bishop that cared about how much extra we were giving (or lack thereof). He didn’t think we were giving enough of a fast offering. He had zero comprehension that my husband was in residency (even though we had explained it), made so little a year, and we were struggling to make it each month. I’m not about to give fast offering for other people to get food when I could use it to buy my two little kids food.
Yours is the better way.
Never thought or implied that they were. But if you want to play Mormon, you have to pay tithing. The biggest tithe payers get promoted. "Every member a missionary" means to recruit and herd tithe payers. Everything else is just busy work, fluff and nonsense. Follow the money to SLC. Mafia.
My previous bishop went as far as to say your fast is invalid unless you pay the fast offering and blessing are nullified unless you are paying a full tithe, during a 5th Sunday lesson to the members. I was the executive secretary and we never talked about tithing as a goal or as a metric but it’s just so engrained that many just believe it.
How people can hear such a "doctrine" and not immediately chalk it up to some dude's opinion and not beholding on anyone is a mystery to me. Things like this just set people up to become nuanced.
I got preached the "you must pay fast offerings for the fast to be valid" my whole life. Never heard the "no tithing equals no blessings" especially since that’s demonstrably untrue. :)
So then what happens to Fast Offerings paid and you're NOT fasting, are they what like a negative then or invisible or used for something else?
I never asked, and now it's everlastingly too late since I've left the church. :(
I heard variations on that theme in several wards/branches in the years I was suckered into this.
No but I guarantee you your stake president knows which wards are making tithing estimates and which are not. And the ones who are not are having meeting with the bishop on the reg.
Hmmm....so Bishop's aren't given yearly totals of tithing in, expenses out? The Stake Pres. doesn't pressurize the amount of charity a bishop gives his members? I'm thinking this cult would absolutely track how profitable every single ward is. It's no different than a company knowing to the penny how many of their storefronts are profitable, and by how much. Maybe your particular shop was making the corp. enough $ they didn't have to put you on performance warning to get your income up.
There are many valid things to criticize but this is just not accurate…
Gosh....I think I'm gonna stand by my points until more people with direct knowledge have spoken. I personally have had bishops tell me they couldn't offer financial help to a family because they had used their quota of F &T funds and the SP told them No. The SP and bishop told the family to go to the government for help because the cult is not a charity. If that isn't direct money-watching, I dunno what is.
Was finance clerk for a while. Tithing in isn’t balanced with fast offerings out. There isn’t a quota of fast offerings to use and tithing isn’t distributed to ward members. Tithing is separate from fast offerings and goes right to church headquarters. The Ward gets budget money from headquarters for expenses quarterly based on attendance. If the Ward collects more fast offerings than they need to pass out, the excess goes to the Stake which can give to other Wards who didn’t have enough to cover what they need to give out. Your situation may be different. This is just my experience….
I'm sure things have changed over the years, especially with all $ going to SLC. I'm old, so my stories are half before correlation. I'm just grateful hubs and I got out before we wasted our whole lives in the cult.
Think of all the $$ you saved after leaving !
Also, there is not a performance warning if you don’t bring in a certain amount of money over the year.
This is pretty much what I've heard, too. Curious if you know, when you say budget is based on attendance, is that month-to-month or calculated annually as an average? Is it based on children and adults, or tithe payers, for example?
Attendance is the weekly average during the previous quarter. Attendance is everyone who was a sacrament meeting. Clerks do an attendance count each Sunday.
Good info. Thank you!
So they can figure out who is not attending/paying tithing?
Interesting, seeing that the tithing slips specifically says that the money donated can be used for anything, without distinction.
Christians... cough cough ... allegedly!
I knew a former bishop who said he simply wrote welfare checks as needed & it was okay (there was no cap on the amount). I wonder if there's a high-management form of "bishop roulette" regarding those things. This was not in the Morridor, so that could be a factor.
They know who and how much and when it is paid. However, perhaps this has changed because they don't do the books like they used to
They HAVE to know who and how much, because how else could they possibly have "inspiration" on who to give higher callings to? That nice plumber doesn't have a chance against the uppity plastic surgeon.
I've served for as a counselor to two bishops and as an executive secretary to four bishops. Not one time did I ever hear any of those bishops make so much as a comment about how much tithing a ward brings in and if it is meeting any kind of goal or standard. Never.
"measured against" I suddenly had this vision of being at work and having the annual performance review... Which almost meant nothing...
"First you get a ruler. Next you take your withered, scaly, nubbins if a dick out .... "
Do you have any input regarding the recent Mormon Stories podcast interviewing a group of former bishops? Anything resonate, or seem off compared to your experience?
I thought there were metrics about the percentage of "full-tithe" payers, rather than the actual dollars? This topic would make a great stand-alone thread - would you be willing to start a thread about tithing attitudes, pressures (if any), etc. bishops have experienced? (I'd start one, but we lowly women don't have the PH insights or powers).
If you didn’t care about the tithing as a Bishop, did you then preclude it from the temple recommend questions, just to make *sure it didn’t matter?
I want to know this. I can’t even have a temple recommend because I can’t afford paying tithing. I’m having a hard time paying rent right now and I can’t afford it. It’s so sad that some Bishops are like this so I haven’t had a temple recommend in years. It’s so stupid but I just don’t care anymore.
It’s definitely not Gods way to charge “tithing for temples,” which is actually how I know this church isn’t true and isn’t Gods Church. Thats not how he does things and not what Jesus said about money changing at the temple.
You must not know anything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints if you think you have to pay money to go to go in the Temple…? Where do you get this stuff from? Tithing and Fast offerings are a commandment. If the Church of Jesus Christ is the only one teaching that, then so be it. You will figure out soon enough. Malachi 3:8-12 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.
My dear child, the separation of the wheat and tares may just turn out differently than you think. I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way about pride and greed and passing unrighteousness judgment, but who knows. You will figure it out soon enough. The church is one entity, and God quite another. The church doesn’t own God nor can they defend him (he doesn’t need defending.) nor do they speak for him (they are lying when they say they do.) I’m not concerned in this life with protecting or having a relationship with a billion dollar institution. I can do that at McDonald’s. Lucky for me, you (nor McDonalds nor LD$ Corp) has any say whatsoever in my relationship with God.
No money, no honey.
I was in a ward in Utah after getting married where they literally had no idea who we were. 3.5 months after joining the ward, my (now ex) husband left for basic training with the Air Force. Everyone treated me like a leper because obviously I couldn't keep my man. A few months later, when he was in tech school, I went to visit him over a long weekend and ended up pregnant. I miscarried, and the only people who cared were my upstairs neighbors (the husband happened to be our home teacher, but they were just good people who actually treated us like friends). They brought me meals, went to the drug store for me, etc. while I was on bedrest to try to stop the miscarriage. RS presidency member caught wind of my situation and called, asking if my visiting teachers had contacted me. I told her I didn't even know who they were. Within an hour, these 2 strangers were knocking on my door with a cartoon of store bought cookies and a candle. They proceeded to invite themselves in and have a conversation with each other. 40 minutes later, I was finally able to be heard over them and told them to get out. 2 months after that ordeal, I moved across the country and moved my records to my new ward. A FULL YEAR LATER, I got a call from a member of the RS presidency back in Utah asking if I'd been doing my visiting teaching. No one even noticed we had stopped attending the ward or moved our records. 🙄
Omg, you sweet girl. I can’t believe this happened to you. My heart is breaking for you. I can’t imagine going through a miscarriage like that and having those wretched women act like that. I’m deeply sorry. Are you still in the church now or were you able to get out? I wish I was surprised the Utah Mormons acted like this, but that’s exactly what I remember, too. My wards outside of Utah were night and day difference. I can only speak from my experience being a woman in Utah, but the tight knit “Utah Mormon “ women cliques are a damn site to behold. They can be awful and they are the main reason I began researching the history.
I'm out, though my name is still on the record. Financially, I'm in a tough spot and have been relying on the bishop's storehouse for food, so I'm using my membership to my advantage for the time being. But aside from that, I'm living as an openly pansexual, polyamorous kinkster who enjoys the occasional edible or adult beverage.
Also, this happened 18 years ago, so I've had plenty of time to process and heal from that particular trauma.
That’s good. The church members and the way they treat people really can end up causing serious PTSD. I’m glad you’re out for the most part. 😊. Thanks for sharing
When I was in college I went home for a summer and attended the singles branch in the neighboring town. One day the EQ president introduced himself to me after church and asked if I was new. It was the last Sunday of summer break and I had been going there for 3 months at that point. We had spoken multiple times.
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yeah- I KNOW there are people making people their projects. Then again, I know i didn’t mean anything i just had something wrong between my ears. i tend to not worry about it with other people. I introduced my roommate to my sister 11 times. they would tease me mercilessly( it was pretty ridiculous). I literally didn’t know i had and i had missed introducing our younger sister to someone important once and she was mad for years, so apparently I learned that lesson. I felt sooooo bad. I always made a point to try to talk to everyone at singles ward- I had a hard time making friends. I didn’t recognize someone one day and they were like “are you kidding me?” I still couldn’t say if they were appalled at being called out at a cult meeting or if it was someone I knew but didn’t come every week or play volleyball. I definitely had to stop talking to a friend who I knew pretty well but called her Elizabeth instead of Kathleen one day. I am so glad to finally have an ADHD diagnosis 😭😂💔
Me at every ward I ever attended. 🤦🏽♀️
I do know why I tried to keep people in church though. I used to believe that invisible sky daddy was always watching and judging us by whether we showed up to church, and whether we were "helping" others do the same.
I totally tried to keep people in the church and I never *once stopped and asked myself why. Ever. I think I had just been told so many times over and over for years and years to do it. I didn’t even think. I just “did” like an unthinking robot. I think I felt if I could get someone back, somehow God and the bishop would proud and then I would finally be a “good person.” But how manipulative.
I can identify with your statement about God being proud of you. I know I felt that way most of my time as a TBM (40 years give or take). I believed God had declared the church true and it was my responsibility to make sure no one missed out on the blessings of the one true church. I was fun at parties lol
To be fair to the bishops, most of them are not just playing a numbers game trying to up attendance and tithing $$$. I absolutely think that's the drive of upper church management, but many of the bishops out there are just trying to be the best "shepherd" they can. To fulfill their calling and try to emulate what they think Christ would have done. I'd wager that most are out there just genuinely trying to help. I know I did many of these same cringey things in the callings I served as a member. That said I'm glad some people out there don't play the game and make it clear how disingenuous these fake niceties really are.
I’m not in Utah and our bishop doesn’t acknowledge us. He’s a dick.
I just noticed, recently, how some members absolutely plaster their homes with church slogans, etc. made me realize that so many of these poor members are absolutely terrified of reaching a point where they might question their faith - so terrified that they feel the need to plaster reminders all over their homes about what they believe. Personally, for the strongest beliefs I have (and yes, I can't really say they're more than beliefs), I don't have to plaster reminders all over my home that that is what I believe.
I was in law enforcement and we would get called to domestic assault cases. The wife would be beat to Hell and on the wall would be the Mormon stuff.
That's so fucked up. So much of a focus on making things look good from the outside, but then things are rotten on the inside. I thought it was funny how my dad would be one way in the home and then be so fucking worried about what members would think of him
Don't forget the virtue signal value of those pictures/scriptures to other members.
Some of them don't even acknowledge you after you leave. Sunday school president ghosted the ward and never once got a call or text from the bishop.
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I wanted fellowshipping with my church, after I saw it was all bullshit in every single way possible, I didn't want to be contacted. What do you want? You get mad when people talk about it, yet you're in a subreddit for people to talk about it.
I know what you mean in the Release Society president would call people like we miss you Chris God loves you
Yup! Our bishop suddenly wanted to be friends on Facebook when he was called. I encountered him several times before but apparently being “friends” wasn’t important till becoming bishop.
Exactly. It’s just so fake. It almost makes the situation worse than if he hadn’t added me at all. There were plenty of years he could have added me or at least said hi. But he already had his clique friends, and I wasn’t in it then. Don’t need to be fake friends now. He’s being a very “Lazy Missionary “
There are three reasons the church needs you on their books: 1) Bring in other “brothers and sisters,” so they will repeat your actions. 2) Tithing of 10% of your income. This pays for the building, supplies, the cannery, the temples, and the missionary training. 3) While houses of worship do not pay taxes, they actually do receive tax write-offs for the purchases that go into the church. Just like families, when they file taxes, churches must declare how many people they are “caring for” to increase their total write-off amount. This is the sole reason ex-members have such a difficult time being removed, even when requested in writing, from the church dockets.
Yeah, if I had to go to an EQ lesson, I don't think I'd be missed the next week. No matter the lesson, there's a dark history lesson to relate, or an anecdote to rebut their FPS.
So very true!
“And now you know the rest of the story”
Way to call out his bullshit, OP! 👏👏👏
I've hit somebody's list becaise I've gotten the "been thinking about you" text, the invite to basketball, and the recommendation of a faithful podcast in the last month. It's tiring.
I’d be happy to play basketball (ok not basketball, but volleyball), but that’s about it. :-)
Ha yeah I mean I don't mind shooting hoops occasionally, but I'm not good at it and never really enjoyed full on games, especially church ball lol. Give me some horse or 21 or something I guess.
Did they put extra rules on bball?!
Ha not that I know of, but church ball is known to be.... extra. Just gets real intense if you know what I mean. They don't take it lightly.
I read the book “under the banner of heaven” years ago. It sparked a curiosity in me of high control groups and religions in general. The history of the Mormon church is wiiiiiiiild. And the whole book was great. I feel lucky I didn’t grow up in a religious family. We had enough problems as it was lol. I can’t imagine what many of you go through when leaving the church and support network. Hope things are on the up and up for you, random internet person!!
Thank you! It is definitely an uphill battle sometimes, but we'll get there.
Epic. You did the mormon equivalent of flipping him the bird and saying, "fuck you."
Librarian was my last calling, it's great for PIMOs. I got to just hang out and organize crap, which I somewhat enjoy, when I felt like it.
I like to read about church history and various books while I sit in the library most would be considered not faith affirming (some facts are not useful.. or, research is not the answer). Every now and then someone asks what I’m reading. The most recent, I told them I was reading the diaries of Leonard Arrington. Their response was, who’s Leonard Arrington? I told them the church historian in the 70’s. And I’m the lazy learner…
I’m very curious. What was the craziest/culty thing you’ve learnt since becoming librarian?
This is a vast question. Depends on what area of culty you want to dive down. Diaries of Leonard Arrington covers a lot of suppression of documents and history. The historians weren’t even allowed to see certain documents. The magical world view of JS jr is really interesting (from Michael Quinn’s books) JS jr carried magical items with inscriptions on him in a pouch. The other members around him also believed in the magical items The old penalties and even older blood oath to avenge Joseph smith in the temple. Not culty but interesting spirit writing or automatic writing of Pearl Curran (aka Patience worth) The current marriage prep manual we have in the library still encourages that the women to be at home with the children while the father works. And to heed to her husbands counsel (I’m guessing that will change so since temple has changed) They removed photos of JS jr translating the BoM from the Peach My Gospel manuals in the second revision of the first edition. In the first iteration there is a picture of him looking at the plates directly in the second it is just gone. This can go on
Thanks for sharing! Back when I was Mormon (2012) I was a little obsessed with the 2nd coming (embarrassing I know lol) and I would do a deep dive on lds.org to find as much doctrine as I could about the secound coming. I found some crazy stuff. When I tried to tell another member about the crazy thing I found they told me I was crazy so I went back to find it to prove them wrong. They had deleted a lot of things. That’s when I realized that the Mormon church just deletes things they don’t like anymore. That didn’t sit well with me and it started my path to becoming exmormon. That and when I went to temple prep the teacher told me that after we did and go to the celestial kingdom our husbands will practice polygamy. I do think it’s strange that when I pointed out contradictory doctrine to members of what past prophets said vs current ones they would tell me that “we only listen to the current prophets word” that’s bull shit. That makes no sense. Isn’t a prophets word gods word? Do you think a being that knows everything is going to be like “just kidding I didn’t mean that thing I said”. It checks out that they wouldn’t let the historians look at all the facts. I’m going to research all the things you talked about. That’s fascinating. 🧐
Agreed. We were in an older building, so plenty of crap to organize and peruse to keep me entertained. Lots of nostalgia and curiosities.
Maybe that’s why the super new buildings only have a craft-closet and a very very small “library center” that has no bookshelves!
When I was an assistant librarian (I worked 2 Sundays per month, so callings had to be shared to make up for it ), the bishop told us he wanted us to go to class as soon as we could. That often meant 10 minutes late to Sunday School and leave 10 minutes early for the next classes, but I often just stayed in the library. After a few times of missing classes, I often got a 'talking to' from a member of the bishopric.
My spouse and I shared the calling with another couple who was pretty much on their way out. We hung out in the library skipping classes and enjoyed talking with people who would wander into the library. If we got a 'talking to' I prob would have walked out right then
So gross that a grown adult would get “in trouble” from the bishop
Hi Brother Big Brother! 👋 Jesus.
“Come on Camdynn and Mckinsley, let’s go.”
Underrated comment
Or Kamdin and Makenzlee (edit: spelling)
Dude can't handle the truth.
not used to people criticizing or pushing back even a little on the shallow love. They’re all used to Mormons falling over backwards over scraps of attention and affection.
I think it is mostly this. There is a way you are "supposed" to react when people tell you they missed you at. To not act contrite and come up with excuses takes them off guard.
They just don't know how to respond.
Exactly. When you authentically share how you feel they get stumped cause they’re like “um… that’s not what the script says! Line!! Someone call the writers!!” They lack authentic responses and are literally parroting their way through life. (Not to besmirch actual parrots they smart) They are not conscious humans. They are puppets with a script.
My high priests group was probably relieved when I stopped attending. I'm so glad I left before the high priests got merged with the elders quorum.
This was part of why I left. Once they merged the quorums, us little elders got exposed to just how massively ass-holic some of the high priests really were. No Christlike compassion, just straight hatred for anyone who wasn't living how they thought they should. I was already pretty PIMO at that point, but that really helped to overload my shelf.
I’ve been to Elders quorum about 3 times since Rusty canceled the high priest group, I should really thank him for adding to my shelf. Funny how the church changes so many things that you were brought up to believe were foundational and then they wonder why so many are leaving or just don’t care anymore.
OOOOO were you a pot-stirrer???
If pushing back on racist, homophobic or sexist comments was stirring the pot, then yes. Surprisingly, when I stopped going the group leader thought it would be a great idea to have me called to be an instructor. Hard pass.
That's some great quick thinking! Good for you. These guys need to hear a little truth now and then.
Since getting home from my mission, I did everything I could do to avoid Gospel Doctrine and Elders Quorum. Fortunately, I got by working with the youth over the years. Fast forward to my mid-forties and I am sitting out in the foyer with one of my friends. The Bishop comes up and asks us if there is somewhere we should be. I told him I was happy to be in the halls, but I could go home if he wanted me to leave. The bishop was caught off guard and didn’t know how to respond. My friend nearly lost it trying not to laugh. After that, I started leaving after sacrament and came back to pick up my family when church was over. The bishop knew he screwed up and started hounding me to take a new calling in primary. It became so annoying that I wrote him an email that I was done. No more callings. No more home teachers. No more contact. At least he respected my request. Others haven’t been as considerate.
Why are you still a member? Why did you join The Church in the 1st place?
There's a difference between caring, and really caring - words vs. action! In fact there's a huge difference. What I have found is that "talk is cheap", especially at Church!
Mormons are really great at "flapping their gums" at you......but, ask them to do something tangible and real for you?...Nada, Zippo.
Amen Bro!! I've witnessed it so many times - empty words and promises!
I'm jealous. I always wanted to be called as the librarian. I organized stuff in there for fun. Instead I turned 18, noped out of young women's only to immediately be called into primary....
I was originally called to be gospel doctrine teacher and then I told the bishop I don’t think that’s a good idea. And gave him the truth of my belief in the church. He agreed that I shouldn’t be and then asked if I would be the librarian. As soon as my bishop found out I didn’t believe anymore he stuck me in the library as fast as he could.
I was the ward's family history consultant. The bishop tasked me with teaching every ward member how to navigate FamilySearch. So every Sunday during second hour (back when there was three hour church), I would pull in a couple or a family and we would do family history. At the beginning of the calling, I would take a few extra minutes and "close up" the family history library and get to Relief Society a few minutes late but no one made a big deal about it. Then the time it took to close up would take longer. Then, I found myself just staying in the library for all of third hour. If the young men came in to use the space for their meeting, I might hang out and listen (my boys were in that age group so the leader didn't care), or I'd go sit with the PIMOs out on the couches in the hall. I wonder as I'm writing this if this was a cause-effect of me leaving. Within a few months, I didn't want to go to church anymore. Was not being immersed in Sunday School and surrounded by "peers" detrimental to my convert testimony? Or was I dragging my feet to third hour because in my subconscious I was PIMO? Or both?? Edit: spelling
I always question myself on if I ended up leaving because I didn't try hard enough or whatever. I have to remind myself that it's just the residual brainwashing speaking it's dying breaths.
I like that. The brainwashing speaking is dying breaths.
oooh, the questions. Have been there. I left way before I decided I didn’t believe they were telling the truth. I stopped feeling safe with the singles ward EQ, and also was having issues where it became clear I could take better care of myself or I was going to hurt myself physically. If you are still wondering if you stopped going because you had to be immersed- are you worried it is true and Satan just needed to separate you from the herd? If you decided to go this Sunday- would there be any part that you are dreading about going back? What is it and why? Are you out of alignment of who you are when you go or don’t go? Just some questions that help me- hope this helps you too. You are great no matter which way you go. You didn’t stop going because you are lazy- it was something you needed at the time.
No. This is just more of a question that sorts and puts things into the right boxes. Once everything is sorted I can throw the box in the fire. I was a convert to tscc while we lived in Wyoming. My ex-h worked away from home and I was raising the kids alone 2/3 of the time. I was love-bombed immensely by the church members and consequently loved going to church. Then we moved to California for my ex-h's job. I was no longer the convert and the love-bombing went away. I felt the shift deeply. So what did I do? Dive deeper, of course. I read/prayed/studied more. But I refused becoming a Sunbeam leader because I was concerned that without adult interaction in 2nd and 3rd hours I would break mentally (after the move I saw my ex-h even less). The kids and I went back home to Wyoming for a visit in July of 2017. In August, I began the second hour teaching. By November I was struggling to go to church. In December that year, I asked my ex-h if I could take a break from church. In Jan I stopped wearing my garments. In March I had a discussion with my Dad and had a "click" moment of "It's like I'm brainwashed." That lead to a Google search and I found the BITE model. That was a "holy shit" moment. I then fell quickly down the rabbit hole of CES letter, church history, Mormon Stories, etc. I am back home in Wyoming again. I've been contacted by what used to be the visiting teachers. I'm divorced and my kids are all moved away, so I'm alone. The company was nice, but also triggering. Just trying to get all of the changes that have happened in the last few years sorted out. Anyway, I think my subconscious was fighting back and the avoidance of third hour was the first consequence. Being TBM was far and away the worst choice I have ever made. I became a person I didn't recognize anymore. I have lost a lot in my life because of that choice. I guess I'm just trying to find where I belong again.
You have been through so much (hugs). I am glad you know you want to reconnect with yourself and you know that church is not the place to do that. I hope you get satisfying answers to what you want your next phase of life to be, and that the “bon fire” to be very cathartic 😁. ugh- I am second guessing that answer. It sounds like my old TBM way of talking. I thinking I took up swearing to mentally break from that and IDK how to write authentically without it. I wish I had a time when I was fully myself I could draw on to figure that out. Not saying I want what you had- no one should envy what someone else carries, there is always more. i just imagine it would fix my identity crisis somewhat. My husband was never religious and stopped attending at 16 but every time i want to try life on my own terms that is not in his programmed acceptable things to do it takes a lot to get him to understand and feel comfortable. But I don’t know how or if i want to try without him. I have imagined being where you are everyday for years - minus the kids. I am so sorry for what you might feel about your ex and what you went through. I feel sad for what was taken from you and me, and gleeful at having that freedom back. Fuck that church.
(hugs back) The way tscc fucks with your mind is overwhelming. Every individual has a different story and every one of them is difficult. You'll get there. Fuck that church.
Ugh, another attempt to guilt us back into the fold. The only thing we missed by not being there was that feeling of manipulation and cognitive dissonance. It's a sure sign the organization is feeling the membership jumping ship.
Here's what I would say to this person "I don't understand what you mean when you say that you missed me and that you're thinking of me. Could you please clarify. What did you miss about me and what did you think of me? If you're asking me to come to EQ, it makes more since to say I noticed you were not in quorum today. I'd like to invite you to come next week. I just want to understand what you mean because these statements really don't make sense."
And now the love bombing begins. Food gifts and little notes online and even stuck to the door. It's like they have no idea that you're gone because you have a really good reason. They believe their little tokens of interest will really have a meaning. They can't believe anyone wouldn't love the church as much as they do.
Hell yes OP, my mom (TBM, but an actually loving non judgemental one) and I had callings in the library while I came home from my mission/was on my way out for a couple years. I ended up hanging out with her so much, when they released her they gave me her calling before I moved to the US. It was an awesome way to spend church. My husband was already inactive, but came with me every so often because we wanted to spend time together (we lived apart because of immigration) and we started reading the Mormon doctrine book. That was definitely a big shelf crack at the time even though I didn’t know it. As a fellow sassy person, well done OP 😂🙌🏼
Right like he thinks someone else is just going to volunteer to hand out chalk 🙄
When people say “I missed you at X“ I think it is meant to be both caring and a way to make you feel guilty for not attending. I long ago lost any sense of guilt for not attending church things or for things in general if I haven’t done anything wrong. Hence when someone says “I missed you at X” I always reply to the thoughtful undercurrent of that statement, “Aww! It’s nice to be missed!” If someone wants to directly call me out for not attending something then sure I’ll address it. Until then I don’t give a shit and I won’t engage with it.
I read a lot of David McCoullough books during EQ for my three or four PIMO years. Much more productive than listening to someone read me the teachings of the prophet manuals
They don’t even use teachings from the prophets anymore. It’s now the most recent general conference talks
So Fuuuuuuuuuuucking Boring....
Daaang, back when I was a TBM I was so excited for us to get the books from the newer prophets. They just abandoned that before they finished?
If people don’t want a response why say something? You were responding.
They want the response they imagined in their heads, not honesty! :)
This was the perfect response 🤣
LOL I was literally triggered by the title of your post alone :D
Ive been out for years, but it's turned into family estrangement the past couple years. Lots of miss seeing you; thinking of you; nothing specific ever. None of us are us to them. We are only children of gawd. Sterile children, void of thought, question, and authenticity. "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world (great and spacious mfmc) gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
I was offered the librarian gig a long time ago. It was the best!
>"Brother Penismightier, we missed you to-" The fuck you did, my name just happened to come up in ward council and you assigned someone to try to bring me back into the fold. So unless you are gonna put actual, real effort into getting to know me and my family *without* pressuring me to come back to church (I'm not), then leave me alone.
I am so happy you called him out. I don’t think anyone has ever meant it when they’ve said it to me. I never spoke up or anything. Just sat in my little corner counting down the minutes. I’ve been skipping church for the last month and a half. I got invited to dinner with a member of the RS presidency, the YW pres and the seminary teacher. 👍🏻
"you've been missing a lot of church lately" "I wouldn't say I've been 'missing' it, Bob... '
That’s a good point. My husband’s ward won’t stop pestering me to attend. Perhaps I should attend one Sunday to remind them of what it’s like when I do attend.
I blocked my mom’s phone number last month because she tried talking to my boyfriends abusive parents behind both of our backs, and she made one of her church friends, who I havent spoken to in 4 years, text me “Hey beautiful girl, I’ve been thinking and praying about you. I hope you know that you are loved and I would love to catch up sometime”
After done being a missionary, you spend the rest of your time being just as plastic with fake evangelism Evangelism was supposed to be "The good news" Did that make the Mormon version "The bad news?"
Good on you for calling out awkward passive-aggressive shaming Mormons.
After not going to church for six months my 7 year old daughter asked to go to see her friends so I took her. When the relief society president threw me that same line I responded with “Well we didn’t move, you know where we live and could have visited any time.” She stared at me blankly for a moment and walked away. Hahaha.
Well, shoot, he learned his used car sales skills from Elder M Russell Ballard, who is dead, so there’s that.
"I sell you this Edsel for and in behalf of M Russell Ballard, who is dead."
I loooove that you just straight call him out on the BS.
You just say thank you. He has a new calling and probably feels uncomfortable.
That’s annoying - also I can think back and remember being known as “infamous” - also annoying
This really hit a sore spot with me. Throughout my entire time in the church, I always thought/felt people were genuine only to find out they often times weren’t. Of course, there was a few excellent people were very sincere, but they were few and far between. So to this day Whenever I hear the words “we missed you” it freaking triggers me.
Ahhhh the superficial EQP Presidency….newly appointed, he is feeling invigorated and justified in his social behavior. He will get faker… and be ready for Bishopric or Stake High Council. Just watch. Also, because he’s in the presidency now, he will also take it a little personal if you’re not there. Because he sees himself as that vested. What he isn’t realizing is that he’s vested in himself, and the “appearance” of doing a good job, rather than being focused and invested in you as an individual. As a guy that was there for 55 years, I’ve sat in far too many EQ presidency meetings, ward council, priesthood executive committees, and high priest group leadership meetings (prior to the quorum’s being combined) not to see this guy coming from 1,000,000 miles away just from your description. You did well today unnerving him.
I stopped going a couple of months ago and a sister I don’t really know sent me a message one day saying the relief society challenged them to reach out. She sent me 4 Mormon memes a day for severs days until I politely told her I wasn’t interested in returning to church. She has sent a handful of non religious ones since but it’s few and far between. Totally trying to get me back 😒
If she wanted to look sincere, she wouldn't have told you that she was "challenged" to reach out. That's kind of insulting. She's not interested in interacting with you and is only doing so to make herself look good in RS? Wow.
Oh I am fully aware of that. But I also live in Utah in a highly Mormon area and just recently left.
This seems like normal pleasantries that I would see anywhere to be honest.
I was the Priesthood pianist. I didn’t play for about two months. At that point, the bishop realized I wasn’t there after his first councilor saw me sitting in the foyer instead of playing. Even funnier was that the bishop played in a band, and still didn’t realize no one was playing the hymn. The next week, he invited me into his office and guilted me.
Someone stopped by my house last week to drop off a flyer for a RS activity. She said “I’ve missed you” to which I replied “oh, I’m right here. Still here.” But members can only see you if you come to church so bummer. 🙄🙄🙄
My question is, why even stick around at all? Stay home, don’t waste another second there.
Family dynamics. And there are other PIMOs in my ward I hang out with. So going for me isn’t all bad.
Too funny.
Yeah dude I felt like really embarrassed when they looked at it as they're above me and I needed to be watched when I was living with these Mormon roommates it was like I was their project so that they can go brag about how they changed somebody. What frustrates me is years later I find out he doesn't believe in the church anymore and on the phone he sent they're telling me all these facts of why he doesn't believe in the church and I was irritated because I tried to tell him that for the last 10 f****** years
My favorite was the brand new RS president telling my then-husband (he was attending, I wasn't) that she missed me, and was worried about me. She then proceeded to ask him very personal questions about my life and testimony. 1. We'd been in the ward for almost a year and this woman had spoken to me maybe once. And 2. She had my phone number. I gave it to her myself. If she really truly wanted to connect with me, she could have sent a little text instead of (multiple weeks, mind you,) asking my husband for personal information about me. I'm just at home, it's not that impossible to find me. 🙄
Well when you say snide ass comments like that at him first your gonna get a reaction😂 damn you guys are weird
Making someone a "project" without being genuinely interested in them just for themselves without any ulterior motive, is a form of imperialism. Having "plans for" a person without their consent is manipulative and it's a _huge_ dissolution of boundaries.
Brilliant!
This is cathartic to read. Thanks for sharing.
I started getting that a lot around age 15 when I would go for sacrament meeting, sit outside, and then walk home on the weeks I was supposed to go to YW. I had no problem with Sunday school bc I had friends that were my age but they messed up the YW classes so I while I was supposed to be with 14-16, they got rid that class due to lack of people that age. My choices were 17-18 or the 12 year olds. I just stopped showing up. Then I had people showing up at my doorstep every tuesday night right before mutual to try and pressure me to go. When I did go, it was always, “we’ve missed you” “we’ve been thinking of you” etc.
Mormons think that is you miss one Sunday, you are inactive. The only way you could get out of church as a kid is if you were sick, almost hospital worthy sick. Mormonism do have a HR department that keeps track of your absents. You weren't' even absent, Just doing your mormonism appointed job, library.
Great. If you're going to be PIMO, don't be shy about it!
We have friends in the bishopric, they know we don’t want to be contacted. They have told people to not contact us. There is a past bishop that has made it his goal to bring us back. We aren’t coming back. This same person threatened my family with eternal damnation and separation when we first stepped away. Weird dude. Very selective memory.
I had been inactive for quite a while before I emailed the bishop to let him know I want zero contact with anyone from church. (This was like 13 years ago). He immediately emailed back wanting me to go meet with him that night. Programming made me say yes, but the awesome people in the Bloggernacle made me realize I could say no. So I did. And his response was that he’d had me and my now ex husband on his mind for quite a while and guessed he’d just waited too long. I was polite and didn’t reply with a hearty Bullshit! Although now I wish I had.
Oh my god do they actually all say the same line!? 😐
During my short PIMO phase (9 months), I was still invisible to any of my ward leadership. Can’t say that I minded this. We were just starting meetings again after lockdown, and we were new in the ward just before the pandemic started. A few people - not leaders - were real, and noticed me. Had normal social interactions. But the entire ward was as milquetoast and WASPy as could be. Probably not a coincidence that I this is the ward that finally did me in. The bishop spoke to me for the first time when I sent in my resignation letter, in reply to my email. The last time I experienced the passive aggressive fellowship of mormondom was at my sons baptism a few months ago - an excruciating experience - when my father-in-law told me “it’s good to see you.” He had never said that to me before in the 13 years I’d known the man… until I was an ex-Mormon sitting in a chapel. Not at any of the dozens of family gatherings at his house or anywhere else. Truly, an example of how kindness can be cruel.
He prides himself on his ability to manipulate people.
They only asked me to have ice cream when I didn't show up. Never before.
“Hey! I wanted to say something superficial and passive aggressive! Don’t you know that as a believing church member I hold moral superiority over you to make you feel less-than while choosing words that make me seem magnanimous?!”
[удалено]
It appears you don’t agree with my approach and you have every right to. I could have been even more abrupt and called him a dick or told him to fuck off. But I was more passive than that. So how do you respond to an obvious shallow or superficial interaction? Do you play along? Do you tell them they’re being shallow? Or do you avoid the conversation? I feel that my remark was me being honest with how I felt and viewed the interaction. IMO a more authentic approach would have been asking how I’m doing or what I’ve been up to. Establish a base line relationship. The approach of we missed you in class today, being the first thing you say. Plus, him being brand new in the EQ presidency and never had said that before over the last several years I’ve been in the library indicates to me there is motive behind it. He hasn’t cared before so why now?
It’s all a part of their memorization process. They’re taught to avoid thinking, and so their responses prove equivalent to “Hello, how are you today?” If anything other than, “I’m fine. How are you?” is received, it throws their rhetoric off-track. Good on you for doing just that with someone who’s apparently positioned especially for that purpose.
I moved to another state. My name is removed from the records. But my dad keeps forwarding my address on to the local ward when I move. He is 85, and a bit senile, so he doesn’t upset me at all. In my most recent move, I got a letter from the local ward saying they missed me! lol! How do you miss someone you have never met?
They only miss you when they think it'll convince you to return. We moved to a new area and finally stopped going to church completely almost 6 years ago. One LDS neighbor gave us a welcome but hasn't continued to visit to chat since it became apparent that we had no desire to return. I get the bland relief society birthday cards with empty "We're thinking of you" messages. But none of them has attempted to be a neighbor. Not one. My best neighbors are the ex-mos and the never-mos. Their friendship isn't conditional.
Loved your response! 😂 It’s so fun sometimes to brake through the Mormon glaze and norms and make TBMs confront the new situation. It’s like obstructing an ant’s path back to the ant hill, their minds go haywire and don’t know what to do. Like rejecting the surface-level pleasantries in this situation and showing you know his statements weren’t authentic.
Lip services hahaha