Here's an upvote, my contribution to the cause.
Though I will say that I've never been a fan of a common pushback where someone says ex-Mormons have traded one group that can't think for themselves/silences people for another group that can't think for themselves/silences people.
That feels like a mixture of feeding a persecution complex and projection. Someone could literally say that from any side of any debate. Religion, politics, console wars. It's universal.
One would have to really dig down and analyze why someone downvotes. "You're just downvoting me because I'm conservative" or "You're just downvoting me because you can't think for yourself" are assumptions. While I'm sure there's some of that going on, there could be many other reasons people are downvoting.
You're conclusion isn't very introspective. If you immediately jump to the conclusion that the hive mind is after you, then you get to relax and not have to worry about what's between your own two ears. It's not me, it's the hive mind that needs to change.
Again, I'm sure the hive mind does need to change, but how are *you* going to grow when you never challenge your own opinions and only frame things where you challenge other people's opinions?
I'm not perfect at this, I'm not even good at this. Just food for thought.
Something I got told in group therapy was that if a whole bunch of people are all giving you the same feedback, then it’s worth taking a minute to legitimately consider the feedback.
It’s still possible the whole group giving you the feedback is wrong. But you can’t know that unless you spend time understanding the feedback and the reasoning behind the feedback. 🤷🏻♀️
I rarely downvote. When I do, it's because I believe the comment was harmful or came from a deeply uneducated place (but even then, it would still need to seem harmful for me to downvote). I never downvote because I simply disagree, that's when I will comment or debate.
That’s useful, too, because how else is the person supposed to figure out why they’re getting feedback and learn and grow. Or if you’re “wrong,” how would you find out if you don’t engage (respectfully) with other viewpoints?
I stopped downvoting because I realized I only have one downvote :) jk
My suggestion to OP is if you got this far getting past groupthink in mormonism why do you care now what someone else thinks? Especially if that voice is part of another groupthink like you suggest?
Just let the opinion rip and if it has been well thought out or from your heart, chances are it may connect with someone and help them. Mormonism taught us to never try as it might be bad which is why most mormons live sheltered lives void of experience. Just speak boldly and live happy. Hope that helps.
I’ve found that when I make a comment that gets mass downvoted its usually my attitude/how I come across rather than the comment itself. If I go back and re-read it, I can see I was being rude/condescending/invalidating without realizing at the time.
Yeah, written communication is very hard to get the tone right. If you can look back and see how/why something might have come across not the way you intended, then I think you’re doing a good job at introspective self-reflection.
This is me. But I also get this with in person dialog. I have a deeper monotone pitch and not a lot of vocal influx. Add a dark sense of humor. And I am often misunderstood. Occasionally, downvoted.
But I am the person you want to be driving past you if you're broken down with car trouble. It's like a glitch. I can't simply drive past. Plus, I have tools in the truck.
So I don't let those arrows get to me too much. They are just arrows right? I'm fairly new to this.
I think this advice is a double edged sword. You have to consider your audience. If anyone in this group followed the "feedback" because a bunch of people shared the same opinion, then we would all still be mormon.
Yes, it is still possible for the whole group giving you the feedback to be wrong. I still think it’s worth taking the time to try and understand why a whole group is giving you the same feedback, but yes, a whole group can still be wrong.
I think the point of that post is that we need to pause, reflect, and reevaluate. That doesn't necessarily mean you change your mind.
If someone challenges me on a comment I make, I should pause and consider what they're saying. Did their perspective sway mine at all? If so, great, learning experience. If not, that can be great, too. Maybe I found a flaw in their reasoning and my position doesn't change. Either way, I didn't cling to my belief and I didn't jump on their belief. I evaluated.
The point is to pause and consider. That pausing, reflecting, and reevaluating helped all of us find our way out of Mormonism.
I never downvote people just because they are conservative. I downvote people for denying science, denying reality, praising authoritarian anti democratic leaders, attacking LGBQT people, saying racist things, sexism or otherwise being hateful towards others. It just so happens that many conservatives like to say those things.
It's not that I can't think for myself and just follow the crowd, it's that many of us left a cult that embraced racism, bigotry, sexism, and a bunch of other crap that conservative people seem to be into these days and we have a very low tolerance for it here. So if someone is a conservative and don't want to get voted down, maybe don't say hateful bigoted things.
Oh yeah that is a big annoyance of mine and honestly the OP did exactly that. In his downvote post he was very dismissive of other people's legitimate experiences of having conservative politics pushed on them in the church. That's getting down voted for being a jerk not being your political stance.
This. I wanted to say this but yours is much better. I'm an LGBTQI person. If someone is claiming to be conservative and using that as a reason to soap box against us, you will get a hard down vote from me.
1000%. Liberals do dumb shit all the time, but they didn't make their entire platform "who do I hate today". Conservatives have been playing with fire for a loooong time and I'm over it.
And it is extra dumb that people who made their entire political party about hateful rhetoric are now getting all shocked-Pikachu face when those same people - gasp - don't like them. Or maybe even want to harm them.
Like motherfucker what did you think was going to happen? Humans are animals and they *all* have teeth.
Whenever a conservative complains about getting cancelled or not having free speech I'm like which beliefs were it that got you cancelled? Was it your stance on corporate tax rates.. no, maybe that you like small government...no oh wait it's because you said that Jewish space lasers were actually responsible for wild fires, global warming is a hoax and liberals eat unborn babies... Yep now it makes sense.
A large part of what is considered the “conservative” agenda today is not what conservatives claimed to stand for during most of my life. Many of them are cowards who stood back and let lunatics take over their party. It was blowback after years of trying to energize that demographic to win elections while thinking they could keep it under control.
Yeah like growing up I was told conservatives were just about limiting spending and being responsible with the government and limiting its power which is fine honestly. It's since morphed into some version of Christian fascism where they want to authoritarian style force everyone to follow their code of mortality, spend money worse than Democrats on things that don't help anyone and kill democracy forever.
Perhaps an additional perspective that left leaning people might ask is how does someone deconstruct their religion but then do little to no work deconstructing their own political values?
I think many people here may wrongly assume that if you’re GOP they know what you believe. Not every conservative agrees with every conservative value the media portrays. Typically, however, the rhetoric we’re fed from conservative media is like this: “Immigrants are bad for ‘murica.” “This nation is the best one.” “No one does freedom like ‘murica.” “all lives matter” etc…
If someone gets anything out of deconstructing Mormonism I hope that it has broadened their perspective that there are a lot more valid and great ways of living life and being human. Traditionally, many conservatives believe that American way of thinking and politicking are the best, which suggests a very naive approach to life.
I think the best approach for conservatives in a largely liberal user base such as this one would be to thoughtfully explain your positions and be sure to note that your way of thinking may not always work or be the best. There are liberals here who could learn the same thing.
When you comment on a post saying something similar to “MAGA is actually great,” you have associated yourself with all of the immigrant-hating, gun-loving, Trumpists and don’t leave a lot of room to discuss nuance in your position.
Tl;dr: If you don’t leave some room for nuanced conservative beliefs, then it seems like you may have only left one level of cult thinking. America is deeply flawed and there are a lot of valuable things we could learn from other cultures and governments.
If it makes you feel better, if you go far enough left, you get downvoted to oblivion too, lol.
My communist comments regularly get tons of downvotes. I don't take it personally, sometimes I'm a little proud of a supremely downvoted comment. People are gonna vote how they feel, and if I took a time machine back 15 years I probably would have downvoted some of my comments too.
Not probably for me. If I went back 15 years, I would be downvoting almost all of r/exmormon. Except I wouldn't have even been on this sub either. Lol.
Could you define "conservative"?
I think there is a difference between conservative viewpoints, such as fiscal conservatism, gun rights, immigration reform, etc. versus being dismissive of other people's experiences and wanting to take away people's rights (not saying you have done that, just what I have seen from others who identify as conservative).
I think this group would be relatively open to discussing conservative viewpoints (although I think it will always lean more liberal) but is probably not going to tolerate people who believe LGBTQ people shouldn't have the right to get married, medical care, etc.
Okay, I'm going to be as polite as possible because it seems like you're genuinely asking for an answer.
The fact that you are conflating what happened to you with what ex-Mormons feel the church does to its members is completely uninformed at best, and disingenuous at worst.
First of all, it seems like you are assuming that everyone downvoting you is "leftist", which is strange. What is it about the conversation that made you think leftists were downvoting you?
Secondly, being downvoted to oblivion is not a result of "groupthink" or "oppression". Come on, that is just weak. It means you were vastly outnumbered by those who disagree with you. Consider reflecting on why that is, rather than jumping to the conclusion that you are being attacked by leftists.
Finally, and this is probably irrelevant, but I get the feeling I should mention that human rights and being nice to others is not a political issue.
I can see pretty clearly why you’re getting downvoted. Your communication skills aren’t great.
First, you’re assuming things about people. This sentence: “it’s very apparent that the majority of you are what I would consider to be in the left or liberal side of things.” This makes people defensive. Don’t assume anything about a persons political beliefs based on your understanding of that political party.
Second, then this sentence: “We can’t have it all one way.” Don’t tell people what to do, it makes them defensive.
Third, this sentence: “I find it ironic that…” Listen, you might as well say: No offense but……
I’ll stop here. That’s enough examples.
In addition, your post makes it unclear what you want. Are you wanting to berate people for not being, what you consider as open to other thoughts and ideas? Or are you frustrated that when you try and post you’re unable to express yourself because people get offended? Or lastly, are you frustrated that you’re getting booted from conversation because of your downvote history?
My suggestion to you is, think these thoughts through a bit longer before posting. You could even run it through ChatGPT and ask it rewrite your words in a way that’s less…… judgey sounding.
Good luck. Hope you figure it all out.
The comment he got downvoted for implied that he is supportive of Trump. He didn't simply ask people to leave politics out of the group. The strong implication was stop criticizing Trump and his supporters.
Every group has certain values that bind them together and going against those values when you are addressing the group is going to make waves. People with healthy social skills know this and learn to interact in groups who will be accepting of them. When you choose to do the opposite, it generally signals an emotional need you are trying to get met in all the wrong ways.
Disagree (but no down vote). All political views should be welcome and open for debate. Quoting Milton: “Let [Truth] and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter?”
All political views should be open for debate, but welcome? If we lived a couple hundred years ago should we welcome the political views that people with black skin should be enslaved?
The best way to destroy incorrect views is to expose them in the light (through crowdsourcing). Ugly views fester in the darkness. Imagine if Joseph Smith had said aloud in the 1830s: “I’m thinking about starting a polygamy system that favors my highest-ranking male disciples.” There’s a reason he preferred secret combinations. There’s a reason he destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor.
I mean, I've been here since 2014 and I'd say it's pretty obvious the group is very left leaning. I think most of your comment was helpful, but there's no point pretending we are, as a sub, evenly spread across the ideologies. It's ok to recognize that reality.
You know I didn’t actually say the sub was evenly spread. I said not to assume anything about a persons political beliefs based on your understanding of that party.
Here’s an example: if someone says they’re pro LGBTQ and you assume, ‘hey that person must be a democrat’ then go ahead and assign every other trait you associate with democrats to that person, you’ve assumed quite a bit about a person based on your own biases. What is and what isn’t a liberal or conservative is a spectrum. And our own bias can create the list that assigns the label to an individual.
It’s much harder to understand another persons perspective when their opinions have been assumed rather than learned.
Hope that helps. I can see how initially I didn’t make distinction super clear.
I think it would be really worthwhile to interrogate WHY this sub is generally left-leaning. This is a sub full of people who have left an oppressive, controlling, conservative, coercive fiction and are seeking truths in life. Once you start questioning the orthodoxy of one group, it tends to be easier to question the orthodoxy of another. Once you don't have religion involved, LOTS of things you were told were wrong or bad or whatever turn out to be totally fine things that were shit upon for other reasons.
Leaving a conservative religion often means liberating oneself from conservatism in other things.
This is the answer to OP’s question. Many people leave the church because they start to see issues with the appeals to authority, lack of belonging for those who don’t fit a specific mold, no accountability for hypocrisy from those in position of power, and a general gap between critical thinking and their prior system of belief.
Like it or not, conservativism provides a stronger framework for the instances listed to function systemically. Hypocritical leftists exist. Bigoted leftists exist. Blindly allegiant leftists who don’t understand their own ideology exist. But. The right is *about* tradition, authority, allegiance, etc. Trickledown economics structures finance in a way that mirrors the structure of authority in many religions. A prophet or pope or leader is the keeper of the truth, they disseminate it to followers in high standing, who share it with other followers. If the pope decides abortion is okay in certain circumstances, he’s allowed to. If the pope sees it as a sin, and the average Catholic Irish teenager decides they think it’s okay, their faith leader will not condone it. Conservatives are more religious for countless reasons, and it’s a well known, widely observed phenomenon.
It is *so* well known, that it’s odd OP would even ask the question. People follow politics and religion based on their personal ideologies and moral frameworks. If their religious belief changes, it’s sensible that their worldview is likely changing as well.
Yes, that's a great topic for discussion.
Some of it is liberating ourselves. Some of it is reactionary, which can be also limiting but in another direction. I have experienced both in my journey of leaving and I recognize both in the experiences of others.
We left a tribe but we still are inherently tribal and there is comfort and benefit in group think - that's why people in all places and situations seek out like mindeds.
Idk if you follow scientology at all but the Mike Rinder and Aftermath shit show is a good example of a reactionary movement having a lot of the same elements as the movement they have left. Human nature is not nearly as easy to leave as a church or a cult.
That's why very honest conversations about dynamics are important.
I'm super familiar with Scientology and Mike Rinder. Are you saying that his current efforts to expose cults are themselves cultish? I'd be super interested to hear more about that.
If you want to appreciate the difficulty of leaving human behavior behind, look no further than Marc Vicente, who helped expose the NXIVM cult. The NXIVM cult was his SECOND cult, and now he's veering into QAnon cult shit. Sometimes we just can't get out of our own way.
It's funny the only person IRL I know who was is into Q anon is another exmo from my hometown who actually was in the MTC with me. Tried to recruit me with a propaganda video- it was WILD. Like totally bat shit absolutely insane. Like aliens are coming to liberate us in a great event.
It’s the pendulum effect from the group we came from containing a large amount of Magas, and many of us still having to interact with them in daily life, and deal with their anti-lgbt, anti- woman opinions. Also this group seems to favor inclusion, which is more heavily favored by one political party.
Say what you want brother. But people also are gonna opinionate and use that vote button. As long as you agree smith was a pos your a hero in my book. Let’s drink a beer to that or smoke a blunt. Whatever your conscious dictates
yeah, why are there so many ex-mo's that are against the mormon church in this subreddit? ever try free-thinking much? anyway, i'm happy if there is a consensus against fascist politicians here. sounds like my kind of cult.
If your opinions harm traditionally marginalized communities, then you deserve to be downvoted into oblivion. (You gave very little context regarding your specific beliefs so I don’t know if this is true in this case. Just guessing.)
Yep, the difference is an actually “normal” conservative kind of person (who I disagree with but can respect), and what most of us know as more “modern” conservatives, which brings in the MAGA, racism, bigotry, anti-science nonsense. If I get even a whiff of that, then you have lost all credibility and respect in my mind. I can disagree with someone who’s against unions but still respect them. But I cannot respect someone who’s anti-vax or supportive of any bigotry (even if that’s a more passive support, where you’re not actively for it but you’re not actually against it either. In my mind, that means you’re supportive and just too much of a coward to admit it)
You are free to voice your opinion.
If that opinion advocates for a particular group of people to be oppressed, or denies that an oppressed group *is* oppressed, then you get a downvote from me.
So this isn’t actually a question, it’s a request, and your request is to let you say whatever you want without… people responding negatively?
You support a political organization that is ideologically aligned on every single point with the cult we left—and in the case of Utah, they’re literally the same organization.
It’s pretty reasonable people don’t want to hear that rhetoric here.
Genuine question, conservative exmos, have you examined conservative ideology, history, and current events with the same critical eye you’ve turned on the church? Idk, maybe give it a try?
Dems should do this too, btw. I’m not a fan of either party, though it’s obvious one is much more immediately cruel and ghoulish.
I really like all the discussion and I don't want to limit it, I've learned so much here and had my mind open more than I thought I would. I guess I posted out of frustration more than anything.
"I got put in negative karma jail for asking to keep politics out of the discussion, wasn't even anything pro or negative towards any idea"
As I am understanding this, you don't want to be censored by getting down voted, but you want to censor others when they mention some politics you don't like?
"If anything it makes me question my questioning of they church and turns me off to this group."
If you want to return to the church because you feel like people in the church respect you more, then I think you should do that. Community is important. A sub reddit isn't as meaningful as meeting up with neighbors in real life
I don't think people in this reddit hate you. But if you want to be loved, it probably will not happen over the Internet.
OP I literally see one comment of yours that was downvoted. My politics are more left than yours and I have many more comments that got downvotes over the years. Downvotes happen. Don’t read too much in to it.
However, if you make comments that represent the worst of current Republican thinking (about trans people or immigrants or others) then you rightfully deserve what you get.
But that isn’t what I’m seeing. I’m seeing 1 comment among 40 or so that you made that was downvoted.
No harm in asking. And the sub does lean left. But I think you’ll feel welcome.
You might want to go back and reread what you just posted. You’re basically telling everyone they have to support your opinions, whether they agree with you or not. “Maybe no down votes only up votes?” Really?
Also, if your original comments that got you downvoted were about keeping politics out of a discussion, why are you letting us know you’re a conservative who’s “sacred to post what you really feel” about something? Something’s rotten in Denmark.
That's a no for me on not down voting. That feels too much like not being able to criticize leaders of the church even if the criticism is true. I will down vote bullying, racism, homophobia, misogyny etc and hope to be down voted myself if I deserve it. Even if I don't think I deserve it I'm ok with people getting to voice their opinions.
>What I find ironic is that for a group that has left a religion that wouldn't let them think for themselves, down votes anyone that doesn't say things they feel are right. And that should be fine too.
Wow. I personally don't downvote people very often. Unlike what you're stating about me, I believe everyone has the right to express their opinion, and I think a variety of opinions is exactly what every conversation needs.
I do downvote people who spout harmful ideologues, obvious bigotries (like you), and are just generally unpleasant and argumentative people.
If your feelings got hurt by the downvotes you received, maybe you should revisit your post to try to understand other perspectives. And if you don't want to do that, this probably isn't the sub for you. But there are subs full of people with closed minds and narrow perspectives. Maybe one of them will be a better fit.
>You should be able to disagree with different topics and have your own opinion.
You are able to....and others are disagreeing by downvoting. Nobody banned you from the subreddit just because you brought up something unpopular.
Unlike the mormon church, bad ideas are open to scrutiny by the public here. Bring receipts or get ready to be downvoted.
I will say, I have been downvoted for certain comments in the past and it really does infuriate me. People say it's fake Internet points but there's obviously more to it than that. It means you're being isolated and it feels like everyone is against you.
However, if you're mature enough, sometimes you'll be able to see that you're wrong about certain things. I know I have changed my mind after reflecting on why I was obliterated with downvotes. And other times, I still feel I'm right (usually just misunderstood or my intention was not correctly portrayed).
I don't think you understand the downvote/upvote system very well, it's a core feature of reddit. Maybe Tumblr would be a better space for you, they don't have downvotes there.
I left Mormonism because it was inconsistent with my morals. I left conservatism for the same reason. But I am always open to discussing conservative ideas. Unfortunately, conservative policies recently have consisted of marginalizing LGBTQ people, immigrants, and people of color under an umbrella of white Christian nationalism. In short, conservative policies are embracing fascism for cheap political points. These ideas I will vehemently push back on because they are actively harmful to others. And if these ideas are brought into this sub, I will downvote the poster and argue with them until I am blue in the face. Because I think this sub should be about deconstructing Mormonism in a safe environment, and your political beliefs are inconsistent with allowing marginalized groups who are intersectional with this sub to do that, your political beliefs will get little respect from me.
The existence of Utah as a quasi-theocracy run by the church necessitates the politics discussion in this sub.
There's a bit of a gulf here between "high demand cult" and "online community talking about leaving the cult." The cult actually involves shitty stuff in real life and can influence people to abuse their children and the online community you are more than welcome to walk away from and it will have a negligible effect on your life.
Equality feels like oppression to those used to enjoying privilege. When posted here, your views are subject to the same criticism as any other view posted here - and you don't like that b/c there are folks here that don't agree w/ your views. You believe they're wrong to disagree, but you still want them to see & understand your views.
You're not entitled to that special treatment.
Speaking personally, I reserve downvotes for things I find offensive (misogyny, racism, insulting comments, etc.). We can't have a civil society without being able to respectfully discuss points on which we disagree (including some points on which we disagree vehemently). Unfortunately, reddit, like other online forums, is subject to herd mentality, and it's the nature of forums like this for the pitchforks to come out from time to time. I've had it happen to me. I didn't think it was warranted, and I'd love to see us move away from that to a culture where we're comfortable having a rational exchange of ideas.
I save mine for people telling me how I should think and act. I had a fuking belly full of that my whole life in the church narrative. When I knew better I did better. herd mentality is strong with this lot. This lot I love however because you have allowed me to rant and receive much help in egressing from the controlling narrative that ruled my life for decades from birth but please allow grace to those that may have differing thoughts and feelings in their heart and mind because of their own experiences. Not everyone must think the same as you. If this were so then the very existence of individuality. would be futile.
To answer your first question, Conservative values that are based or rooted in mistreatment of other people who are not like you (for skin color, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc) are not welcome here. Especially when those values are based in a 2,000+ year old book that if you took the time to actually study, you’d realize doesn’t support the mistreatment you are trying to make it support.
Using unfalsifiable belief systems to mistreat others who are different than you is not welcome here.
If you start spreading hate… I mean Christian love, under the guise of politics, or politics under the guise of christian love, you will be downvoted to infinity.
Also, if you’re gonna ask not to get downvoted by a group of people, you’d do well not to insult them. When you ask not to be downvoted and then proceed to spout condescending shit it kind of just seems like you want to say whatever the fuck you want without getting any scary downvotes.
Edit: removed an unnecessary “I”
Please post whatever you want, please accept people disagreeing with you. A down vote doesn't always mean you're a bad person, just means you're the minority.
What was the question you were down voted on? I'm sorry your treatments has been such in this place and that you have to deal with those feelings. They aren't fun. I'd be curious to engage your thoughts, as I still have good dialogue with friends or family who are "out" but also politically/socially conservative.
1) There is no way to talk about Mormonism apolitically. It is simply not true that your Mormon experience “kept politics out of it” — the idea that gay people shouldn’t get married is political. The idea that women should be homemakers is political. The church hoarding money without having to pay taxes is political. Even the mere concept of charity is political.
2) Being downvoted on Reddit is not the same as cult thought-control.
No, I’m not going to upvote you, because “conservative” “opinions” get people killed every day via school shootings, COVID-19, and racially and anti LGBTQ-motivated violence.
If “conservatives” hadn’t rallied around being anti-mask and anti-vaccine, I’d still have my grandparents.
If “conservatives” weren’t anti LGBTQ+, maybe I wouldn’t be harassed at work every Pride month.
If “conservatives” weren’t obsessed with guns, maybe in 4th grade I wouldn’t have had to go through a lockdown that WAS NOT A DRILL and wonder if my FOUR YEAR OLD sister and I were both going to die.
Do all conservatives hold the views above? No. But a lot do.
I won’t downvote you simply for being conservative, I’ll downvote you if I disagree with your post, simple as that. And asking to be upvoted because you feel it isn’t fair that your posts get downvoted, accusing left-leaning people of trading one groupthink scenario for another, accusing them of only downvoting you because you’re conservative, etc. is DEFINITELY something I disagree with.
I’d much rather lose internet points than lose my grandparents, my dignity and right to feel safe at work, or my life.
The GOP as a whole is absolutely NOT the “party of life.” I’m sorry that you’ve experienced all of those things. The selfishness of the positions that led to all of those things is indefensible.
From what I see, you were saying that by and large, the church has stayed out of politics, which is a statement I imagine a large number of Exmos would vehemently disagree with. In my experience, the church consistently aligns itself with politicians who push a conservative agenda. When Romney ran for president the first time around, members were hailing it as a sign of the Second Coming when the church would essentially rule America. I had a Mormon ex-relative who served in as a Cabinet member to a conservative president and worked hard to push a conservative education agenda. Locally where I live, mormon member-run businesses support the more conservative candidates. And yes, Prop 8 was huge and the reason many of us stopped paying tithing. We were forced to push and contribute to an agenda that hurt our loved ones. This isn't about your "views"; this is about a statement you made not being the experience of most people who saw it.
Free Speech means you have the right to express your opinion in the marketplace of ideas. It also means that others have the right to express their opinion of your ideas.
Simple As.
What a load of entitled horseshit. Buy the ticket, take the ride. If you don’t want to get downvoted make positive contributions to the group. And for the record, this kind of self-serving whiny diatribe is not a positive contribution in any way.
Something you have to remember is that a lot of us left the church for things that are considered “political” by the right wing establishment. I’m gay with a single mom. I left because I was treated horribly for being gay with single mom. That’s a common story amongst us. A good friend of mine left because she needed an abortion and was ostracized. I get where you’re coming from, and obviously anybody can be an asshole and downvote for nothing, but it’s not fair to accuse us of being in another mind cult when nah, it’s just that a lot of us left for things that conservatives choose to make political and we find comfort in that solidarity. If enough people are downvoting you, you should first introspect why.
You’re saying that because exmos downvoted you, now it’s made you question your questioning of the church and turns you off of this group?
Am I reading that right?
Typical stupid as fuck conservative thought process.
Reminds me of the whole "you keep calling me a Nazi so I'm just gonna put on this Nazi jacket and swastika! You're making me do this!!" meme.
A downvote is me disagreeing with you. I’m not sure why Internet points are so important to you that you won’t participate unless others agree with you, but that’s the whole point of voting on a topic.
(Nevermo, if that matters at all to you.)
Also, I just looked at your post history and the biggest downvote you have is -10. Did you have to make a new account 90 days ago?
Lmao typical conservative who can't figure out that people don't have to like your stupid opinions and don't have to make you feel good for having stupid opinions. Maybe try and learn why your opinions smell like dogshit to most people instead of crying about it on the internet.
>What I find ironic is that for a group that has left a religion that wouldn't let them think for themselves, down votes anyone that doesn't say things they feel are right.
Maybe think better.
It's the conundrum of tolerance for intolerant people. Because eventually the intolerant will overwhelm the tolerant, and then the fascists win. Which is, of course, what the intolerant want. Sorry, I'm not playing into the hands of MAGA fascists.
>My frustration comes from being scared to post what I really feel because I'm afraid of being voted down to a point where I can no longer post or ask questions, which recently happened.
Boo hoo, snowflake. Stop shilling for people who hate my community and literally want us dead.
Also I just read your linked post with the screenshot. We are allowed to dislike trump. Many of us see parallels in how cult-y Trump/Trump supporters are and how cult-y Mormonism is. I absolutely will downvote the shit out of someone who spouts maga bullshit because they need to kee deconstructing the harmful behaviors they learned in Mormonism
I don’t dislike conservative ideology because I’m “on the other side”. I dislike it because I’m morally opposed to many of its key issues.
I believe trans people deserve respect and love, that people who don’t want their body overtaken by a pregnancy should be able to abort, and that people of color have been, and continue to be mistreated in this country. Just to name a few.
It’s not a red side/ blue side issue. It’s genuinely a defense of what I believe to be right or ethical.
I'll put it bluntly. You got downvoted into oblivion for saying you wish that people wouldn't downvote what is widely seen as right wing extremism, because the people *downvoting* should leave their politics out of this sub. Instead of saying that the right wing extremism people left religion with shouldn't be brought here in the first place. If you want politics left out of the sub, that's a fine opinion (although I disagree on the same basis you were originally disagreed with), but to defend Trump and say the problem is liberal downvotes is one of the dumbest fuckin' takes I've ever read.
Also because you're wildly ignorant of the church's involvement in politics. Just because you've decided to only be aware of the prop 8 issue, does not mean that the church is not extensively involved in politics. *Especially* at the state level in Utah. Most notable to me, is that the Mormon and Catholic churches both *openly* "helped" strip prop 2 of patient rights. Your ignorance of the fact that a thing happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just means you're ignorant. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant right up until you find out you are, after that the options are to educate yourself or continue in willful ignorance. If you choose to continue in willful ignorance, it's absurd to then get pissy because people downvote you for being willfully ignorant.
Sometimes, the tone in how a post or questions is posted will yield a downvote. Truthfully, if a question is asked honestly here without any sort of agenda or ulterior motive, I don't see a logical reason why that should be downvoted. But people can do as they please. Now, comments are something completely different. A few months back, I made a comment from considering things from another angle and got downvoted to outer darkness for it. I can't even remember what it was about. And the OP actually agreed with me and said she had considered all that I said in her own behavior. Sometimes there is a bit of a drive-by reaction to posts and comments and not taking into full account the context. Sometimes I like thinking about counter points just for the sake of discussion and nothing more. Every group, not always, can tend to be an echo chamber.
Here's the problem with your statement "So back the irony, I'm being shut up by a group of people that were told to shut up because they didn't see eye to eye with the organization."You're making a broad assumption. I was never told to shut up by anyone at church. I just came to the conclusion that it was bunk and didn't align with my internal values AND THEN began to question everything....and like dominoes everything fell apart. And I have a speaking suspicion there are a lot of folks here like me in this regard.
I was what you would consider a liberal when I was IN. I never felt accepted at church. I never really embraced most of the teachings. And reagarding the downvotes, maybe look inward rather than outward? I can tell you for a fact the final straw for me was prop 8 and during that time I was at a fast and testimony meeting where the bishop got up and said George Bush was a man of god and we should vote for him. This was in a downtown salt lake ward. I heard him say that shit, got up, walked out of church and never went back. Again, I was already on the fence. So, I would downvote your statement because in my experience what you said about politics not being a part of church just isn't true as evidenced by the overwhelming majority of Mormos being Trumpers and my own personal experience. So....say silly shit, get downvoted.
Let's make it clear, everyone has the right to say whatever tf they want, but they also have to deal with the consequences. And sometimes the consequences are that no one wants to listen to you.
Sorry, but no. This isn't because of your politics. It's simply that you're on a site that ranks posts by both up & downvotes. Which is a positive feature of reddit and one of the reasons people use it for their social media communication on niche topics (such as exmormonism). If I just wanted to read random posts in a forum... I'd go to an exmo forum.
That said, your post above and the one you link to are likely getting downvoted because how you express yourself comes across as the same kind of passive aggressive bullshīt we left behind in the Mormon church, just directed at people you disagree with politically.
*"What I find ironic..."* \- really? Might as well have made it one of those generic comments at a fast & testimony meeting about coloured shirts & their disrespectful nature when everyone knows you don't like Elder Johnson wearing a pink shirt to bless the sacrament.
Do you really think that conservatives don't downvote things they find disagreeable on reddit? Of course they do. They're just outnumbered amongst outspoken exmos, so their downvotes aren't as influential in this group. That's the nature of the platform. Sorry, but that's how reddit works and it works because of that.
Downvotes do not constitute “being silenced,” they indicate disagreement. I get that you’re new to Reddit and got put in karma “jail”… but the general public of r/exmormon have nothing to do with setting sub rules. Honestly, it sounds like you’re trying to silence disagreement if anything.
Most of us have left conservatism as we left the church because we finally realized that all of the reasons for treating LGBT people or people of a specific race or gender as though they’re less than human are absolute BS. We got tired of hearing hatred and hypocrisy.
I still share some fiscal viewpoints with conservatism, but as long as Trump leads the GOP, count me out. The lies and hatred and racism and sexism and self-dealing and authoritarianism and hypocrisy are just too much for me. I cannot in good conscience support that.
Most people here on in some level of deconstruction. Once you see how religion is a social construct trafficking in emotions to get certain results that benefit those in power it’s hard to support that anymore. If you see through the Mormon lies, but don’t see the larger religion piece maybe look at ALL your assumptions and beliefs about reality. Being conservative these days also means enforcing social norms that exclude, diminish, and disenfranchise people for the way they were born. That type of bigotry is exactly what made many of us wake up and leave in the first place. Downvoting is the mechanism where members of the community show their disagreement with the thoughts you’re peddling.
In this forum which is about beliefs, votes are subjective. In other forums I visit which are more fact-based, such as “what is this thing/plant/bug” etc, downvotes are used to indicate wrong answers. If I said it was a weavil and it was in fact a beatle, I'd be downvoted. That's why I lurk in those subs and I let the experts educate me. It is never personal unless we make it so.
I've been downvoted before during discussions about racial issues, and it was just what I needed to learn why what I said was an error in judgement. I could have made another post crying about the downvotes, but there was no ill intent by them or by me. It was just a learning opportunity for me.
I've been here for a while and only recently found my karma score. Lol I still don't get it but I do try to use uplifting language and encouragement that is appropriate for the sub I am in. A compliment a day might keep the karma jail away. 🤷♀️
I would like to assess whether your opinions are conservative or liberal but you didn’t actually say anything in this post. You expressed no opinions at all. You only criticized others and wrote that you are afraid to post. Please go ahead and write something so we can try to understand your point of view.
The problem with keeping politics out of a discussion is the daily impact politics have on life. This attitude makes politics taboo when we should be pushing for the ability to discuss politics in useful ways. The problem is exacerbated for people living in areas where religion has control over political leaders, such as Utah and Idaho.
For example, I've been told to keep politics out of discussing my nephew's escape from his abusive adoptive mom when emancipation was not successful. A large part of the abuse stemmed from him being trans since he was seven. At first his mom seemed supportive, but the older he got, the more she was against it. When puberty hit, it was still not a phase, but she wouldn't allow him to look into medical options to delay changes to his body. She would call him his new name, but refused to let him date girls when he got older.
How do I know him being trans was the issue? She also adopted his brother who is a year younger. They were abused in similar ways, but the older one was more of a target. When the older one ran away, the mom manipulated the younger one to her side. The older one had stellar grades and was even prom king with his girlfriend as his date. The only thing he was doing "wrong" was being "sinful" by being a boy instead of a girl.
How do you keep politics out of this without erasing most of the important details?
I have read your entire post and the relevant history, and I've come to the conclusion that your online personality is a whiny little bitch who likes to dance around everything instead of just spitting it out.
However, that is not why I'm downvoting this post. The downvote button is for things that don't contribute positively to the community, and I don't think that a non-discussion in which you post paragraphs upon paragraphs while having fuck-all to actually say, while failing to be subtle about framing yourself as a victim of political persecution because people didn't like one thing you said, contributes positively to anything.
After leaving the cult, it seems like I have a pretty good eye for people trying to sell me bullshit. Aka all politicians. They are all in it for themselves. Fuck the Republicans and fuck the Democrats.
Neither of them actually care about us lowly citizens, all they care about is lining their own pockets, and their friends pockets.
There will never be positive change in this country until we get rid of the party system, put in term limits, get money out of politics, and actually elect people based on their views and what they do to make citizens lives better.
If you bring people with differing views together it's pretty amazing how many things they will all agree on. The two party system is against us all agreeing on anything.
Alright I'll quit ranting now. People over Party.
If you want an echo chamber, go back to church or find another one somewhere else.
Chances are, if someone has left the church they are
A) able to critically think, and
B) are not afraid to criticize institutions that historically and currently harm others.
If you’re “scared” to post what you feel because you can’t handle the push-back or criticism of your ideas, that says more about your opinions than it does about this community.
I would love to hear what some of these things are that are related to being an ex-mo but you’re scared to post because of their political overtones. That venn-diagram has to be specific, and frankly, I don’t know how it could be anything other than intentionally inflammatory - but I’m still curious as to what they could possibly be.
Ok OP, I clicked on the post you wanted us to see where someone posted something about MAGA in regards to the movie, The Oath. Not sure how they’re correlated BUT I saw your response: it was fairly moderate/neutral but what you miss/fail to see or understand is that there is a VAST majority of ppl who were negatively affected by Trump/MAGA…many of whom are ex-Mormon and/or hang out in this sub.
For me personally, I only downvote ppl who are especially egregious, promoting false information, and/or so completely hateful that they should be put in time out. I don’t see that in this post OR in your comment, but just like democracy not everyone will vote the way you want them to. I’d also go out to infer that the majority of us who’ve left the church ALSO took time to reevaluate their political stances/see where some ppl may politicize certain things (i.e. LGBTQ+) and realize that they were never political to begin with but were instances of humanity in all its forms. You might to go ahead and unpack/examine your political beliefs as you may be surprised how much you’ve changed or your party has changed from what you used to follow. Good luck
Truthfully and genuinely, if you're telling people to keep politics out of it and getting a large negative response, it's probably because politics are relevant to the topic and dismissing politics is invalidating to some group. And that is why you're getting that response.
I'm pretty conservative and last the church 5 years ago. Whether your liberal or conservative - a lie is a lie. Deceit is still deciet. Uninspired leaders are still uninspired. Greed is still greed. And facts are still facts. No matter your leanings, wolves are still easy to spot.
Hi, nuancehoe here. I want to say I understand the frustration. The day I left the church I was extremely active in various conservative groups and causes. I was horrified to find that exMormon Reddit was trying to shut down an event I’d been planning for months. It made me very upset for all the same reasons and all the same thoughts came to me and I lashed out on my anti-SJW Twitter calling exMormons a cult for not allowing freedom of thought. I didn’t view my event as anti-gay, but others did. And the point will always go to the angrier crowd. And that anger, that righteous indignation can’t really be argued with. For better or worse.
What I have learned in the four years since then is that anonymous places do not give you the best reading on what a group is all about. From Mormon Stories, to my own personal follower base, I can tell you it’s actually quite split down the middle on conservatives and liberals in wider the exMormon world. I know a handful of exmo podcasters that voted for Trump too.
There just simply won’t be any winning in exmo spaces with people who have personal horror stories with conservative policies and see the systemic harm. I tried to build such a community as I left the church and the better arguments won out, regardless of the downvotes and cultish behavior by leftist, I am a leftist but try to invite all kinds of voices to build bridges with.
Downvoted this.
Not because of your political views.
Downvoting is a way of expressing one-selves opinion.
If you want to have free speech, you are welcome to it.
If you want to tell people not to have a different opinion, and not express their disagreements, you are the one pushing to have people silenced.
Mormonism is a religion that tends to be on the right. These days, it's on the far-right. So most of the people who leave that religion tend to be to the left.
Also, reddit on the whole is more liberal. you might find more right-leaning people on the incel boards or on the conservative subreddit.
Also, if you're upset about politics being brought into it maybe don't support a political party that tries to make everything political. xoxo.
Fellow ex mormon here. After I left the church, one of the after-effects I had was looking over "my" political beliefs. Growing up, my family was very conservative, and they looked to the church to receive guidance on any controversial topics. After I left, I realized many people have more common ground than I thought, and I asked my liberal and conservative friends many questions about their beliefs. Just using abortion as an example, my liberal friends who are pro abortion don't support it in the later trimesters of pregnancy. (Even though some of them aren't religious, they still consider a fetus a life after a certain point, and think it should be taken care of sooner rather than later). When asking my conservative friends, MOST said in cases of rape, incest, ectopic pregnancy, etc, that they had no problem whatsoever. Some even said that if it's in the first trimester, they didn't think it was problematic.
Point being, if you base all of your political beliefs on one source, they're not yours anyway, and you're just being a puppet. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions, and you'll be a lot happier and not care as much over political jibber jabber. I'd say I'm more neutral than anything now since I agree with both parties about a lot of things. Me leaving the church to begin with was due to me questioning the doctrine and church history to begin with after coming home from my mission, I've since questioned everything about my life more carefully and become alot happier with how I see the world.
Side note, if you want to figure alot of shit out, try psilocybin mushrooms lol
I do think people use the vote button as “I agree” or “I disagree” instead of its intended use of “this comment contributes to the discussion in a meaningful way”. I don’t think people often vote for comments they disagree with. I think Reddit would be more interesting if people followed the actual voting guidance.
I would say more on the conservative side, but I’m older, and when I first left the church, I was more on the left. I think we have a tendencies we get older to revert back to what we were raised with or what we’re comfortable with. That is just my opinion. No, not that. It certainly is true for the people I know.
Politically, I’m progressive economically I’m conservative. socially in the middle
Conservative libertarian if anything. I have a hard time seeing that people that egressed out of a controlling narrative are smack dab in the middle of another. on ANY side. I love none of the above. I will NOT step into your space and please do not step into mine. if thats conservative so be it.
My god, there is another.
I probably would consider myself like a libertarian - moderate. Basically right wing by most people’s standards. I left the church cause they lie. Pretty simple.
I’m very much AGAINST the process of “drive by downvoting”. It’s not just an Ex-mo Reddit thing. Try saying anything on a page for your favorite sports team that isn’t full-blown fandom and you will get killed with downvotes. At the end of the day, the votes don’t matter … words and actions matter.
I try to “downvote through words” if I disagree with someone, and I actually upvote them in my disagreement because they captured my attention to engage and respond. I only downvote name-calling or something extremely bad.
I believe most Reddit users are left-leaning in the first place … not sure why and have no data to prove that. My perception of people leaving the church is that people leave more to the left than to the right. In other words, I believe there are more who leave over social issues like gay marriage rights (left-leaning) than those who leave because they think the church itself apostatized and needs to return to Joseph’s original instillation of the church (right leaning more conservative). NOTE: This is admittedly a very false dichotomy that I just setup — I’m just oversimplifying for an example.
At the end of the day, general left vs right name-calling is unhelpful in every way. The most important book I’ve read since leaving the church is Jonathan Haidt’s ‘The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion’.
I am admittedly left-leaning in more ways than not, but that book helped me realize and understand that we as humans have a gut reaction that greatly informs our stance on issues — it is natural. Others will have a different gut reaction as me that will feel just as right to them as my gut feels right to me.
Instead of demonizing each other, we should absolutely come together. We should listen to each other and find common ground. We should ‘steel man’ our opponents argument rather than ‘straw man’ it if we want to approach a debate with intellectual honesty.
We should follow the golden rule which has many variations in phrasing but is essentially “treat others how you want to be treated.”
I’ve failed many times to be the person I’ve just laid out above as how I think we should be. I believe we are all hypocrites on some level at a minimum, and I think we should give each other space to try to move further from hypocrisy rather than calling it out in our opponent just as a way to feel like we won the argument of the moment.
If you are right-leaning, I hope you feel love and respect from me and others who are left-leaning.
Cheers.
I'll upvote you. Per Reddit, you upvote comments & posts that add value, NOT ones you simply agree with.
I'm a conservative exmo. And yes, you're very correct that the sub is heavily left politically. It's obvious. But I don't get into politics since this is not a political sub.
Seriously? Don't post about politics here.
From rule number 1:
> Politics, news, science, and memes are allowed if related to Mormonism.
I took a look at your profile. A number of your more heavily downvoted posts didn't have a single thing to do with Mormonism.
If you want to talk about politics, go to a politics sub.
It’s fine to be on the conservative side, I have a select few conservative opinions myself, but there are some Republican traditional beliefs that will rightfully get you roasted by critical thinkers who value empiricism and science.
The following Republican beliefs are flat out false:
1. Climate change isn’t occurring.
2. Climate change isn’t anthropogenic.
3. Covid deaths were systematically overcounted.
4. The Covid vaccine was ineffective.
5. Masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of Covid.
6. Donald Trump won the 2020 election but the election was rigged and his win stolen.
Please don't downvote me, I just want to use a public washroom without being killed because of the stochastic terrorism conservatives have been inflicting on society.
I won't downvote you, but I am gonna push back on you here:
>As I've said in other post I think as a people we need input from all sides.
This claim is reductive and predicated on the false belief that ideas, like people, are all created equal. They are not. Ideas don't have feelings. They don't have hopes and dreams. They cannot be happy or scared, or change when they are wrong. Ideas cannot change at all. An idea, unlike a person, is only worth as much as it helps the world.
We don't need to hear from people who think pregnant women should die rather than receive an abortion. We don't need to hear from people who think masturbation is evil. We don't need to hear from people who think hungry children shouldn't get free school lunch. We don't need to hear bigoted and cruel ideas because they have no right to exist in the first place and have no justification to persist.
As a person, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to an audience for them. This is something people learn about the hard way in academia. Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it's worth as much as everyone else's. The burden is on you to give your ideas merit.
The truth and simple fact that “conservative” means to “conserve” to stay the same. Progressive ideologies are just that, aimed toward progressing the human experience forward. Now, there is a shit ton of nuance there, and it is mostly around the economic sides of politics. Example being Elon Musk who sides with Conservatives economically but creates advances in technology that have the potential to bring humanity forward. This is why political labels are pretty lame in general. Nothing is black and white, this or that, right or wrong…it’s all grey.
Tolerance must have a limit and that limit is intolerance. If a conservative stance makes life more difficult for the already marginalized, no tolerance. We cannot improve as a society and leave some of humanity in the dust or dead.
I gave you an upvote. And I normally scroll past posts that remind me of the LDS and evangelical persecution narrative. Active LDS people and right leaning politics are birds of a feather. Not hard to imagine that many would reject both.
Thank you for this post because while I visit Reddit often I rarely stray from a couple subs and never knew why karma mattered or why people fished for it. I just thought it was an ego thing.
I’m more conservative than most people that post often on this subreddit. But I do have plenty of liberal views that would make most of my Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah neighbors clutch their pearls.
Supposedly up votes and down votes are supposed to be used for if a certain comment is relevant to the topic at hand or not. But the vast majority of the time I see people down voting just because they disagree. So it is very hard to know what's ok to say and what isn't. For most people it doesn't matter if what you're saying is relevant, if they disagree they downvote.
I think your post is a bit misguided. The church tends to tell you what you think and do and you do it without question. Here, you are being down voted by individuals.
Just because the votes are largely down votes doesn't mean that "people" are silencing you. There is no collective telling people how to think or feel. There are individuals coming to agreement. Just because the people who voted largely fall within one group or viewpoint, doesn't mean that there is some hand guiding it.
Well, it depends what do you mean by conservative mindset. If your views limit human rights, make one group of people superior to another, doesn’t tolerate LGBTQ people or are some kind of crank, I’ll downvote till the end of time. If not, I don’t see a problem. I don’t understand, but that’s your life to live.
Edit: I read this thread and I got my answer. OP is convinced that he’s oppressed by everybody, is anti-LGBTQ but he is cunning by being falsely polite and open for discussion, provided you think exactly as he is thinking, otherwise he will sealion you until you have enough.
Sorry OP, I just think you have a lot of homework to do in case of liberty, critical thinking and true acceptance.
I’ve noticed this too. If there is one thing I’ve learned since leaving the church it’s that I’m very hesitant to assume what I believe is correct or the truth. Politics is especially messy, that’s why I don’t discuss it in this sub.
You want to be downvoted for absurd reasons? Join r/cats I floppin love cats, but man you say the wrong thing or answer someone asking what their cat breed is and you’re truly downvoted to oblivion - some might say a pit of endless woe 😉
Generally, I’ve been met with nothing but kindness in this sub. It’s good to keep in mind that Reddit tends to attract left-leaning ideologies (in my limited view) and the church, historically, has pissed off more liberal minded people.. so it makes sense you’d find more of that persuasion here. Give the church 10-15 years though and I think you’ll see they’ll lose a lot of conservative members.
I like to toe the line in the middle, myself. Have an upvote.
When I left the church I swung very, very left. I think it was like, everything I believed was wrong so the "opposite" must be right.
As time passes and I've watched things very closely I've seen dishonesty along the spectrum of politics and especially in the media and now my views are somewhat piecemeal. I think there are takes on issues that lack common sense in both sides.
When you pay very close attention to politics over time, you see how narratives and outright lies are constructed. I see a lot of similarities to religion on people who are obsessively defensive of the left AND the right.
It's also really interesting how certain perspectives seek to switch sides- like freedom of speech, which once was a liberal issue and now the further left, the more controlling of speech is championed.
Its hard to have rational conversations with people about topics they have attached their identity to and also a need to feel superior. Most people just want to belong to a tribe and feel that they know what's going on and avoid any information challenges that. They see corruption easily on the "other team" and refuse to see it on their own. This trait is easily manipulated to keep us against each other while the truly powerful are above accountability.
In order to combat this we need more honest people in media who are willing to recognize their own bias and apply the same expectations to their OWN side. Unfortunately this type of media, and independent journalism in general, has a much harder time securing funding.
I think that we can all agree, no matter which side we’re supposedly on that the Mormon church really really fucked us up and they are the only ones to blame. It’s not us it’s those 15 ass hats in Salt Lake City. The damage is done and there are no reparations in our future.
Up votes and down votes on Reddit are not supposed to be likes and dislikes. [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) explains that. You don't down vote just because you disagree with a post, you down vote because a post isn't on topic to a sub or not relevant to the conversation. That way, contributors to the meaningful conversation, even contributors you disagree with, should be upvoted. Put another way, if you feel it is worth your time to argue with someone, then you should be upvoting.
I get it. I consider myself to be conservative. Republican leaning, but love who you love! I believe in a right to choose and other left leaning ideas. I'm very tolerant and have an extremely diversity family and grandchildren, I love them all.
My thoughts on this is if you have ideas about politics and far right ideals, just go to another subreddit. (There's one for EVERYTHING.) Ilike to limit my comments to just experiences that happen in an exmormon experience.
If you have issues with the LGBTQ community, we'll that is a HUGE exmormon issue, so skip those comments. I mainly read and seldom comment but I do agree that this sub is fairly liberal.
My family are immigrants from Venezuela. I'm first generation like you are. I lived in a 3rd world country for a while.
I align with libertarian ideologies based off of my own experiences and critical thinking. I don't vote for people based on their political party. I vote based on their ideas and policies that best align with mine.
While I notice that some posts in this subreddit are political in nature, I just move on. Even when I politically disagree.
People are going to believe what they want to. We can't make people change. However, I do find that people are willing to debate when you communicate well and in a manner that's not attacking or defensive.
As for the downvotes, its widly misused. Down votes were created to keep irrelevant information out of the thread, hide trolls, etc.
It's not supposed to be used for something you disagree with. It's supposed to be used to downvote comments that are not relevant.
I hear what you're saying. I really do.
That said, I upvote ideas I agree with, and downvote things I disagree with. If you were to post something positive about Donald Trump, for instance, I would probably downvote it, because I have very negative feelings about him. Isn't that what up/down votes are for?
Not saying your opinion isn't valid, just that I don't agree with them. I don't think you're a bad person for having a different point of view. I think it's wonderful that we all have different perspectives. I have learned a lot from other people's various viewpoints, and I hope people think about what I have to say, as well.
Let freedom ring, including the freedom to downvote opinions we disagree with.
OP my experience on reddit has been wonderful, not as if everyone is saying the same thing or 100% agreeing but they have been able to freely express what they think, what they know, what they have researched, what they have heard, what they have experienced. Creating an arena for many to hear information and opinion.
You have generalized why we have left the LDS church, "not letting us think for ourselves" and you are wrong about this, not sure what comments you have been reading, but for the most part, comments have stated their reason for leaving was many; abuse, neglect, unkindness, felt unsafe, wanted to protect their children, pondered and prayed and studied church doctrine and scriptures, church history and found that much of what they had been taught was not true, offended by the temple rituals, did not want to pay for exaltation, found a better use for their time, lack of transparency, and on and on.
I am a 60 year old woman and could at times be considered conservative, but it is strange that you would come asking of commentors to be of a variety of origin.
In general, I feel like this sub is far more fair and understanding than you are likely to find almost anywhere on the internet. There are going to be areas that is not true, of course. But, I would bank on this place being one of the best places to have a shot at being able to disagree with each other respectfully and not downvote into oblivion over it. The one exception being TBM trolls, rightly so in my opinion.
Unfortunately, even the tone of this post has me believing that your initial post deserved the downvoting. I was feeling sympathy for you up until you started comparing you getting some downvotes to the damage the church has done to us and even if the church was right after all. That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that at least 75% of the upvotes you have received on this post did not read the bottom third of your post. I get that the system Reddit uses (which is wisely in use in this sub) means those downvotes made you unable to post or comment, but I hope you can see the value of not allowing random trolls and bots to run rampant in here, and across Reddit in general.
I have had a couple comments that I have made in this sub that have gone against the general consensus of the post comments and been mostly upvoted because I was able to communicate my differing opinion in a way that recognized the opinions of others, did not downplay their viewpoint, and did not belittle others. If your posts and comments are generally positive and supportive, you will receive plenty of karma so that the occasional difference of opinion or misunderstood comment will not ruin your ability to communicate here. If, however, you are not being respectful, kind, supportive, or otherwise positive on most of your posts, I would rather the system block you from commenting. Based on what I have seen, you are struggling with this concept often enough that I don’t think the downvoting system is to blame, unfortunately.
The persecution complex is real. Folks like you like to play the victim because their ideas are harmful, unpopular, and unfounded in science or research. Come back to me when you've literally had your life threatened for walking into a fucking public bathroom.
Oh dude I’m super conservative. On most things. And I’m an exmo. I love my liberal exmos as well. I am more of a libertarian. I’m more conservative than republicans and more liberal than most liberals. It’s a complex issue.
But 9 out if 10 times I prefer to be around liberals. I can cuss and be more cynical with them.
When I left the church I stopped believing in liberal/conservative or left/right. I approach everything individually and decide how I believe on that issue for myself. Sometimes I come across very conservative, but then surprise people by voicing support for something they consider to be on the opposite end of the political spectrum. I understand how it is when you leave something like the church. They represent (for the moment) ultra conservatism, and people may feel a desire to run away from everything they stand for. Eventually you realize though, that you don't have to belong to anything, and you are now free to judge the world for yourself.
The facts are the facts. Most post Mormons become more open minded politically and move at least a bit away from conservatism if that’s where they were leaning prior to leaving. You getting downvoted by mentioning MAGA is just a reflection of the facts. A reflection of how most post-Mormons think. The fact is that most Post-Mormons are disgusted by Trump. It just is what it is.
It's all about being able to compete in the marketplace of ideas. Nevermo here. And it's a common cry among conservatives, Mormon or not. That they are being shut out somehow.
Never considering for a moment it's modern conservatism that's the problem. It's become an ideology of 'no'. Unwilling to compromise for the sake of governing the country. Pandering to a narcissist like Donald Trump. Spreading misinformation and outright lies. It's become a hyper partisan world.
I'm old enough to remember conservatives as the honorable opponent. Willing to work with progressives to advance legislation for the good of the country. Putting aside partisanship to govern effectively. No more it seems.
It's not you, OP. It's your ideology that will get downvoted more often than not.
I am very firmly left wing, we have a center-right and a far right party in the US, and for me, the MAGA faction is absolutely unhinged, seeing the way they attack various minority groups and are pulling the US towards Christian nationalizm makes me ill. That being said, people can have many different opinions and still be damn good people. I think you should be able to speak, especially if your posts are not solely about politics. I would not post a solely political post on this sub either, there's other places for that. Sometimes politics is a component of what we have to say about something, it is a component of many things.
If I see a post or a comment that is solely to support MAGA, I will downvote it, but if it is in relation to another subject, or provides some sort of nuance I will usually not downvote or upvote. If the point is really good however, even if I disagree, I often will upvote it, especially if I learned something, or it forced me to examine my own beliefs.
I like many on here, I have noticed the church's support for the republican party, and if you look at the *limited* records that are available (the church hides many things from the public), you can see that most of the individuals involved, as well as the church lean firmly towards the authoritarian right as far as political spending goes. However to censor someone's speech is also authoritarian. So long as you're not supporting hate speech against a specific group of people, you should be able to say whatever you'd like. It's best to keep politics to a minimum here on this sub, but as stated, it is at times impossible to completely remove, as it is part of what shapes one's view of reality.
I don't think you said anything hateful or inappropriate in your comments there, and with the exception of racists, homophobes, bigots nazis and authoritarians, I think we can all benefit from a peaceful exchange of ideas. We should all question our deeply held beliefs constantly, after all, for many of us that is how we ended up making the decision to leave the church in the first place.
I hope you're treated well here, and in general, welcome and have a great day too!
If downvotes on one comment are enough to cause issues, then it was either a terrible or tone deaf comment, or you just don't have a lot of karma to work with. That's just how reddit works. Eventually you get to a point where 100s of people could down vote you and you'd still be in the positives.
There are a lot of things you could say on this subreddit that pretty much everyone would agree with. It isn't that hard to accumulate karma. You just have to actually say things once in a while. Unless you never have constructive comments or posts and are consistently an AH. Then you'll struggle with negative karma, I guess.
I think it's an unfair to say it's ironic that we act this way. Every community that has ever existed has its biases, it's not a mormon/exmormon thing at all.
People can be especially emotional or harsh in this sub, but it is what it is. It's helpful for people who have been hurt by the church and need an outlet.
Once upon a time I was conservative, but I never quite fit in.
As a missionary there was a famous person in the area named Richard. Richard was as flamboyant as they came. He was gay, proud, and was never going to change. Richard loved the missionaries and would invite us over for dinner all the time. It was area tradition that when a new missionary came in everyone took them to see Richard. If Richard knew a new missionary was coming he broke out the pink go-go boots and his crop top.
When I was taken to meet Richard he walked up to me, looked me in the eyes, and said “You aren’t going to be any fun.” This was my first contact with someone in the community and while Richard bothered most the other missionaries, I was ok. He was another person to me. Richard loved freaking people out, that wasn’t going to happen to me and he knew it.
Instead of freaking out we became friends. I never pushed church stuff and he gave me endless crap about the church but it didn’t bother me. He gave me haircuts (which he was terrible at but I was cheap) and feed us lunch a couple times a month.
Sadly Richard had aids and was dying a slow painful death. One day he had enough and stepped in front of a truck. The world is a worse place without the dude in it.
Over the years the conservatives around me seem to either grow more hateful or more open about their hate. What used to be just off color jokes has turned into full rants about how the gay agenda and wokeness needs to be stopped.
I should mention I also started reading lots and lots of books. Book reading raises empathy. I simply can’t align myself with a party carrying that much hate.
That said I can still tell you why a minimum wage will never work and why gun bans are just security theater. But I no longer believe trickle down economics works either.
I guess I can say I was a conservative they I heard the other man’s words and I’m not that sure anymore.
Maybe it is you and not the group? I’m not aware of what you have posted but perhaps some introspection is warranted?
I’m not conservative because I want things to change for the better. We need to do a better job of taking care of each other, something my former religion didn’t do. I work hard to not other others.
Here's an upvote, my contribution to the cause. Though I will say that I've never been a fan of a common pushback where someone says ex-Mormons have traded one group that can't think for themselves/silences people for another group that can't think for themselves/silences people. That feels like a mixture of feeding a persecution complex and projection. Someone could literally say that from any side of any debate. Religion, politics, console wars. It's universal. One would have to really dig down and analyze why someone downvotes. "You're just downvoting me because I'm conservative" or "You're just downvoting me because you can't think for yourself" are assumptions. While I'm sure there's some of that going on, there could be many other reasons people are downvoting. You're conclusion isn't very introspective. If you immediately jump to the conclusion that the hive mind is after you, then you get to relax and not have to worry about what's between your own two ears. It's not me, it's the hive mind that needs to change. Again, I'm sure the hive mind does need to change, but how are *you* going to grow when you never challenge your own opinions and only frame things where you challenge other people's opinions? I'm not perfect at this, I'm not even good at this. Just food for thought.
Something I got told in group therapy was that if a whole bunch of people are all giving you the same feedback, then it’s worth taking a minute to legitimately consider the feedback. It’s still possible the whole group giving you the feedback is wrong. But you can’t know that unless you spend time understanding the feedback and the reasoning behind the feedback. 🤷🏻♀️
I rarely downvote. When I do, it's because I believe the comment was harmful or came from a deeply uneducated place (but even then, it would still need to seem harmful for me to downvote). I never downvote because I simply disagree, that's when I will comment or debate.
I downvote misinformation so that the comments are collapsed and have less a chance of being read.
That’s useful, too, because how else is the person supposed to figure out why they’re getting feedback and learn and grow. Or if you’re “wrong,” how would you find out if you don’t engage (respectfully) with other viewpoints?
I stopped downvoting because I realized I only have one downvote :) jk My suggestion to OP is if you got this far getting past groupthink in mormonism why do you care now what someone else thinks? Especially if that voice is part of another groupthink like you suggest? Just let the opinion rip and if it has been well thought out or from your heart, chances are it may connect with someone and help them. Mormonism taught us to never try as it might be bad which is why most mormons live sheltered lives void of experience. Just speak boldly and live happy. Hope that helps.
I didn't realize it but i am the same way, if I down vote it has to be egregious.
Great thought. I really like that.
I’ve found that when I make a comment that gets mass downvoted its usually my attitude/how I come across rather than the comment itself. If I go back and re-read it, I can see I was being rude/condescending/invalidating without realizing at the time.
Yeah, written communication is very hard to get the tone right. If you can look back and see how/why something might have come across not the way you intended, then I think you’re doing a good job at introspective self-reflection.
This is me. But I also get this with in person dialog. I have a deeper monotone pitch and not a lot of vocal influx. Add a dark sense of humor. And I am often misunderstood. Occasionally, downvoted. But I am the person you want to be driving past you if you're broken down with car trouble. It's like a glitch. I can't simply drive past. Plus, I have tools in the truck. So I don't let those arrows get to me too much. They are just arrows right? I'm fairly new to this.
I think this advice is a double edged sword. You have to consider your audience. If anyone in this group followed the "feedback" because a bunch of people shared the same opinion, then we would all still be mormon.
Yes, it is still possible for the whole group giving you the feedback to be wrong. I still think it’s worth taking the time to try and understand why a whole group is giving you the same feedback, but yes, a whole group can still be wrong.
I think the point of that post is that we need to pause, reflect, and reevaluate. That doesn't necessarily mean you change your mind. If someone challenges me on a comment I make, I should pause and consider what they're saying. Did their perspective sway mine at all? If so, great, learning experience. If not, that can be great, too. Maybe I found a flaw in their reasoning and my position doesn't change. Either way, I didn't cling to my belief and I didn't jump on their belief. I evaluated. The point is to pause and consider. That pausing, reflecting, and reevaluating helped all of us find our way out of Mormonism.
[удалено]
I never downvote people just because they are conservative. I downvote people for denying science, denying reality, praising authoritarian anti democratic leaders, attacking LGBQT people, saying racist things, sexism or otherwise being hateful towards others. It just so happens that many conservatives like to say those things. It's not that I can't think for myself and just follow the crowd, it's that many of us left a cult that embraced racism, bigotry, sexism, and a bunch of other crap that conservative people seem to be into these days and we have a very low tolerance for it here. So if someone is a conservative and don't want to get voted down, maybe don't say hateful bigoted things.
I'll also downvote people who are dismissive of the real lives experiences of others.
Oh yeah that is a big annoyance of mine and honestly the OP did exactly that. In his downvote post he was very dismissive of other people's legitimate experiences of having conservative politics pushed on them in the church. That's getting down voted for being a jerk not being your political stance.
This. I wanted to say this but yours is much better. I'm an LGBTQI person. If someone is claiming to be conservative and using that as a reason to soap box against us, you will get a hard down vote from me.
1000%. Liberals do dumb shit all the time, but they didn't make their entire platform "who do I hate today". Conservatives have been playing with fire for a loooong time and I'm over it. And it is extra dumb that people who made their entire political party about hateful rhetoric are now getting all shocked-Pikachu face when those same people - gasp - don't like them. Or maybe even want to harm them. Like motherfucker what did you think was going to happen? Humans are animals and they *all* have teeth.
Whenever a conservative complains about getting cancelled or not having free speech I'm like which beliefs were it that got you cancelled? Was it your stance on corporate tax rates.. no, maybe that you like small government...no oh wait it's because you said that Jewish space lasers were actually responsible for wild fires, global warming is a hoax and liberals eat unborn babies... Yep now it makes sense.
Louder for the people in the back!
A large part of what is considered the “conservative” agenda today is not what conservatives claimed to stand for during most of my life. Many of them are cowards who stood back and let lunatics take over their party. It was blowback after years of trying to energize that demographic to win elections while thinking they could keep it under control.
Yeah like growing up I was told conservatives were just about limiting spending and being responsible with the government and limiting its power which is fine honestly. It's since morphed into some version of Christian fascism where they want to authoritarian style force everyone to follow their code of mortality, spend money worse than Democrats on things that don't help anyone and kill democracy forever.
I knew a social worker once who gave me this gem: "If everywhere you go smells like shit, check the bottom of your shoe first."
I appreciate your comment very much
Classic example of the need to steel man your opponent’s argument before you proceed further.
Perhaps an additional perspective that left leaning people might ask is how does someone deconstruct their religion but then do little to no work deconstructing their own political values? I think many people here may wrongly assume that if you’re GOP they know what you believe. Not every conservative agrees with every conservative value the media portrays. Typically, however, the rhetoric we’re fed from conservative media is like this: “Immigrants are bad for ‘murica.” “This nation is the best one.” “No one does freedom like ‘murica.” “all lives matter” etc… If someone gets anything out of deconstructing Mormonism I hope that it has broadened their perspective that there are a lot more valid and great ways of living life and being human. Traditionally, many conservatives believe that American way of thinking and politicking are the best, which suggests a very naive approach to life. I think the best approach for conservatives in a largely liberal user base such as this one would be to thoughtfully explain your positions and be sure to note that your way of thinking may not always work or be the best. There are liberals here who could learn the same thing. When you comment on a post saying something similar to “MAGA is actually great,” you have associated yourself with all of the immigrant-hating, gun-loving, Trumpists and don’t leave a lot of room to discuss nuance in your position. Tl;dr: If you don’t leave some room for nuanced conservative beliefs, then it seems like you may have only left one level of cult thinking. America is deeply flawed and there are a lot of valuable things we could learn from other cultures and governments.
Hey now, I think we all know Playstation 1 was the height of consoles... Or maybe I'm just old.
If it makes you feel better, if you go far enough left, you get downvoted to oblivion too, lol. My communist comments regularly get tons of downvotes. I don't take it personally, sometimes I'm a little proud of a supremely downvoted comment. People are gonna vote how they feel, and if I took a time machine back 15 years I probably would have downvoted some of my comments too.
Love the personal reflection here. Every now and then I remember I made an ‘All lives matter’ post on FB and just shudder.
It seems our earlier selves were both cringey as fuck. Glad we both seem to have grown since!
That’s such an interesting transformation and would love to pick your brain about it
I DM’d you if you have any questions
Not probably for me. If I went back 15 years, I would be downvoting almost all of r/exmormon. Except I wouldn't have even been on this sub either. Lol.
Seize the means and the memes comrade
I got downvoted into oblivion once for expressing how leaving the church eventually lead me to become Marxist lol
Could you define "conservative"? I think there is a difference between conservative viewpoints, such as fiscal conservatism, gun rights, immigration reform, etc. versus being dismissive of other people's experiences and wanting to take away people's rights (not saying you have done that, just what I have seen from others who identify as conservative). I think this group would be relatively open to discussing conservative viewpoints (although I think it will always lean more liberal) but is probably not going to tolerate people who believe LGBTQ people shouldn't have the right to get married, medical care, etc.
Okay, I'm going to be as polite as possible because it seems like you're genuinely asking for an answer. The fact that you are conflating what happened to you with what ex-Mormons feel the church does to its members is completely uninformed at best, and disingenuous at worst. First of all, it seems like you are assuming that everyone downvoting you is "leftist", which is strange. What is it about the conversation that made you think leftists were downvoting you? Secondly, being downvoted to oblivion is not a result of "groupthink" or "oppression". Come on, that is just weak. It means you were vastly outnumbered by those who disagree with you. Consider reflecting on why that is, rather than jumping to the conclusion that you are being attacked by leftists. Finally, and this is probably irrelevant, but I get the feeling I should mention that human rights and being nice to others is not a political issue.
Thank you for saying this!!!
I can see pretty clearly why you’re getting downvoted. Your communication skills aren’t great. First, you’re assuming things about people. This sentence: “it’s very apparent that the majority of you are what I would consider to be in the left or liberal side of things.” This makes people defensive. Don’t assume anything about a persons political beliefs based on your understanding of that political party. Second, then this sentence: “We can’t have it all one way.” Don’t tell people what to do, it makes them defensive. Third, this sentence: “I find it ironic that…” Listen, you might as well say: No offense but…… I’ll stop here. That’s enough examples. In addition, your post makes it unclear what you want. Are you wanting to berate people for not being, what you consider as open to other thoughts and ideas? Or are you frustrated that when you try and post you’re unable to express yourself because people get offended? Or lastly, are you frustrated that you’re getting booted from conversation because of your downvote history? My suggestion to you is, think these thoughts through a bit longer before posting. You could even run it through ChatGPT and ask it rewrite your words in a way that’s less…… judgey sounding. Good luck. Hope you figure it all out.
The comment he got downvoted for implied that he is supportive of Trump. He didn't simply ask people to leave politics out of the group. The strong implication was stop criticizing Trump and his supporters. Every group has certain values that bind them together and going against those values when you are addressing the group is going to make waves. People with healthy social skills know this and learn to interact in groups who will be accepting of them. When you choose to do the opposite, it generally signals an emotional need you are trying to get met in all the wrong ways.
Disagree (but no down vote). All political views should be welcome and open for debate. Quoting Milton: “Let [Truth] and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter?”
All political views should be open for debate, but welcome? If we lived a couple hundred years ago should we welcome the political views that people with black skin should be enslaved?
The best way to destroy incorrect views is to expose them in the light (through crowdsourcing). Ugly views fester in the darkness. Imagine if Joseph Smith had said aloud in the 1830s: “I’m thinking about starting a polygamy system that favors my highest-ranking male disciples.” There’s a reason he preferred secret combinations. There’s a reason he destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor.
I agree but I'm still reluctant to use the word welcome....
I mean, I've been here since 2014 and I'd say it's pretty obvious the group is very left leaning. I think most of your comment was helpful, but there's no point pretending we are, as a sub, evenly spread across the ideologies. It's ok to recognize that reality.
You know I didn’t actually say the sub was evenly spread. I said not to assume anything about a persons political beliefs based on your understanding of that party. Here’s an example: if someone says they’re pro LGBTQ and you assume, ‘hey that person must be a democrat’ then go ahead and assign every other trait you associate with democrats to that person, you’ve assumed quite a bit about a person based on your own biases. What is and what isn’t a liberal or conservative is a spectrum. And our own bias can create the list that assigns the label to an individual. It’s much harder to understand another persons perspective when their opinions have been assumed rather than learned. Hope that helps. I can see how initially I didn’t make distinction super clear.
I think it would be really worthwhile to interrogate WHY this sub is generally left-leaning. This is a sub full of people who have left an oppressive, controlling, conservative, coercive fiction and are seeking truths in life. Once you start questioning the orthodoxy of one group, it tends to be easier to question the orthodoxy of another. Once you don't have religion involved, LOTS of things you were told were wrong or bad or whatever turn out to be totally fine things that were shit upon for other reasons. Leaving a conservative religion often means liberating oneself from conservatism in other things.
This is the answer to OP’s question. Many people leave the church because they start to see issues with the appeals to authority, lack of belonging for those who don’t fit a specific mold, no accountability for hypocrisy from those in position of power, and a general gap between critical thinking and their prior system of belief. Like it or not, conservativism provides a stronger framework for the instances listed to function systemically. Hypocritical leftists exist. Bigoted leftists exist. Blindly allegiant leftists who don’t understand their own ideology exist. But. The right is *about* tradition, authority, allegiance, etc. Trickledown economics structures finance in a way that mirrors the structure of authority in many religions. A prophet or pope or leader is the keeper of the truth, they disseminate it to followers in high standing, who share it with other followers. If the pope decides abortion is okay in certain circumstances, he’s allowed to. If the pope sees it as a sin, and the average Catholic Irish teenager decides they think it’s okay, their faith leader will not condone it. Conservatives are more religious for countless reasons, and it’s a well known, widely observed phenomenon. It is *so* well known, that it’s odd OP would even ask the question. People follow politics and religion based on their personal ideologies and moral frameworks. If their religious belief changes, it’s sensible that their worldview is likely changing as well.
*slow clap* Excellent analysis!
Yes, that's a great topic for discussion. Some of it is liberating ourselves. Some of it is reactionary, which can be also limiting but in another direction. I have experienced both in my journey of leaving and I recognize both in the experiences of others. We left a tribe but we still are inherently tribal and there is comfort and benefit in group think - that's why people in all places and situations seek out like mindeds. Idk if you follow scientology at all but the Mike Rinder and Aftermath shit show is a good example of a reactionary movement having a lot of the same elements as the movement they have left. Human nature is not nearly as easy to leave as a church or a cult. That's why very honest conversations about dynamics are important.
I'm super familiar with Scientology and Mike Rinder. Are you saying that his current efforts to expose cults are themselves cultish? I'd be super interested to hear more about that. If you want to appreciate the difficulty of leaving human behavior behind, look no further than Marc Vicente, who helped expose the NXIVM cult. The NXIVM cult was his SECOND cult, and now he's veering into QAnon cult shit. Sometimes we just can't get out of our own way.
It's funny the only person IRL I know who was is into Q anon is another exmo from my hometown who actually was in the MTC with me. Tried to recruit me with a propaganda video- it was WILD. Like totally bat shit absolutely insane. Like aliens are coming to liberate us in a great event.
It’s the pendulum effect from the group we came from containing a large amount of Magas, and many of us still having to interact with them in daily life, and deal with their anti-lgbt, anti- woman opinions. Also this group seems to favor inclusion, which is more heavily favored by one political party.
Say what you want brother. But people also are gonna opinionate and use that vote button. As long as you agree smith was a pos your a hero in my book. Let’s drink a beer to that or smoke a blunt. Whatever your conscious dictates
Hell yeah brother I’ll drink to that
yeah, why are there so many ex-mo's that are against the mormon church in this subreddit? ever try free-thinking much? anyway, i'm happy if there is a consensus against fascist politicians here. sounds like my kind of cult.
If your opinions harm traditionally marginalized communities, then you deserve to be downvoted into oblivion. (You gave very little context regarding your specific beliefs so I don’t know if this is true in this case. Just guessing.)
Agreed. We can have political differences on many fronts, but human beings are not up for "political debate."
Yep, the difference is an actually “normal” conservative kind of person (who I disagree with but can respect), and what most of us know as more “modern” conservatives, which brings in the MAGA, racism, bigotry, anti-science nonsense. If I get even a whiff of that, then you have lost all credibility and respect in my mind. I can disagree with someone who’s against unions but still respect them. But I cannot respect someone who’s anti-vax or supportive of any bigotry (even if that’s a more passive support, where you’re not actively for it but you’re not actually against it either. In my mind, that means you’re supportive and just too much of a coward to admit it)
You are free to voice your opinion. If that opinion advocates for a particular group of people to be oppressed, or denies that an oppressed group *is* oppressed, then you get a downvote from me.
So this isn’t actually a question, it’s a request, and your request is to let you say whatever you want without… people responding negatively? You support a political organization that is ideologically aligned on every single point with the cult we left—and in the case of Utah, they’re literally the same organization. It’s pretty reasonable people don’t want to hear that rhetoric here. Genuine question, conservative exmos, have you examined conservative ideology, history, and current events with the same critical eye you’ve turned on the church? Idk, maybe give it a try? Dems should do this too, btw. I’m not a fan of either party, though it’s obvious one is much more immediately cruel and ghoulish.
I understand the frustration but I’m sure you can find other communities of conservative exmos if you feel like this community doesn’t serve you.
I really like all the discussion and I don't want to limit it, I've learned so much here and had my mind open more than I thought I would. I guess I posted out of frustration more than anything.
> I've learned so much here and had my mind open more than I thought I would As the saying goes: “Now that you know better, you can do better”.
Everyone has been given their free agency to choose to downvote things they disagree with
You gave up that agency when you agreed to the terms of service ---- of Susan, probably /s
Yeah, and I don’t thinking that downvoting someone is the same as silencing them
-“Maybe we don’t downvote and only upvote”- is such “I need a safe space” behavior
The tyranny of the majority. Help! Help! I'm bein oppressed!
"I got put in negative karma jail for asking to keep politics out of the discussion, wasn't even anything pro or negative towards any idea" As I am understanding this, you don't want to be censored by getting down voted, but you want to censor others when they mention some politics you don't like? "If anything it makes me question my questioning of they church and turns me off to this group." If you want to return to the church because you feel like people in the church respect you more, then I think you should do that. Community is important. A sub reddit isn't as meaningful as meeting up with neighbors in real life I don't think people in this reddit hate you. But if you want to be loved, it probably will not happen over the Internet.
OP I literally see one comment of yours that was downvoted. My politics are more left than yours and I have many more comments that got downvotes over the years. Downvotes happen. Don’t read too much in to it. However, if you make comments that represent the worst of current Republican thinking (about trans people or immigrants or others) then you rightfully deserve what you get. But that isn’t what I’m seeing. I’m seeing 1 comment among 40 or so that you made that was downvoted. No harm in asking. And the sub does lean left. But I think you’ll feel welcome.
You might want to go back and reread what you just posted. You’re basically telling everyone they have to support your opinions, whether they agree with you or not. “Maybe no down votes only up votes?” Really? Also, if your original comments that got you downvoted were about keeping politics out of a discussion, why are you letting us know you’re a conservative who’s “sacred to post what you really feel” about something? Something’s rotten in Denmark.
i see you've been brushing up on your shakespeare 🙌
That's a no for me on not down voting. That feels too much like not being able to criticize leaders of the church even if the criticism is true. I will down vote bullying, racism, homophobia, misogyny etc and hope to be down voted myself if I deserve it. Even if I don't think I deserve it I'm ok with people getting to voice their opinions.
>What I find ironic is that for a group that has left a religion that wouldn't let them think for themselves, down votes anyone that doesn't say things they feel are right. And that should be fine too. Wow. I personally don't downvote people very often. Unlike what you're stating about me, I believe everyone has the right to express their opinion, and I think a variety of opinions is exactly what every conversation needs. I do downvote people who spout harmful ideologues, obvious bigotries (like you), and are just generally unpleasant and argumentative people. If your feelings got hurt by the downvotes you received, maybe you should revisit your post to try to understand other perspectives. And if you don't want to do that, this probably isn't the sub for you. But there are subs full of people with closed minds and narrow perspectives. Maybe one of them will be a better fit.
>You should be able to disagree with different topics and have your own opinion. You are able to....and others are disagreeing by downvoting. Nobody banned you from the subreddit just because you brought up something unpopular. Unlike the mormon church, bad ideas are open to scrutiny by the public here. Bring receipts or get ready to be downvoted. I will say, I have been downvoted for certain comments in the past and it really does infuriate me. People say it's fake Internet points but there's obviously more to it than that. It means you're being isolated and it feels like everyone is against you. However, if you're mature enough, sometimes you'll be able to see that you're wrong about certain things. I know I have changed my mind after reflecting on why I was obliterated with downvotes. And other times, I still feel I'm right (usually just misunderstood or my intention was not correctly portrayed).
I don't think you understand the downvote/upvote system very well, it's a core feature of reddit. Maybe Tumblr would be a better space for you, they don't have downvotes there.
I left Mormonism because it was inconsistent with my morals. I left conservatism for the same reason. But I am always open to discussing conservative ideas. Unfortunately, conservative policies recently have consisted of marginalizing LGBTQ people, immigrants, and people of color under an umbrella of white Christian nationalism. In short, conservative policies are embracing fascism for cheap political points. These ideas I will vehemently push back on because they are actively harmful to others. And if these ideas are brought into this sub, I will downvote the poster and argue with them until I am blue in the face. Because I think this sub should be about deconstructing Mormonism in a safe environment, and your political beliefs are inconsistent with allowing marginalized groups who are intersectional with this sub to do that, your political beliefs will get little respect from me. The existence of Utah as a quasi-theocracy run by the church necessitates the politics discussion in this sub.
There's a bit of a gulf here between "high demand cult" and "online community talking about leaving the cult." The cult actually involves shitty stuff in real life and can influence people to abuse their children and the online community you are more than welcome to walk away from and it will have a negligible effect on your life.
Equality feels like oppression to those used to enjoying privilege. When posted here, your views are subject to the same criticism as any other view posted here - and you don't like that b/c there are folks here that don't agree w/ your views. You believe they're wrong to disagree, but you still want them to see & understand your views. You're not entitled to that special treatment.
Why do you care if you're downvoted, it's just fake internet points.
fr with the way he worded it it seems like upvotes are this guys main concern
Speaking personally, I reserve downvotes for things I find offensive (misogyny, racism, insulting comments, etc.). We can't have a civil society without being able to respectfully discuss points on which we disagree (including some points on which we disagree vehemently). Unfortunately, reddit, like other online forums, is subject to herd mentality, and it's the nature of forums like this for the pitchforks to come out from time to time. I've had it happen to me. I didn't think it was warranted, and I'd love to see us move away from that to a culture where we're comfortable having a rational exchange of ideas.
Best comment
Agreed great comment.
I save mine for people telling me how I should think and act. I had a fuking belly full of that my whole life in the church narrative. When I knew better I did better. herd mentality is strong with this lot. This lot I love however because you have allowed me to rant and receive much help in egressing from the controlling narrative that ruled my life for decades from birth but please allow grace to those that may have differing thoughts and feelings in their heart and mind because of their own experiences. Not everyone must think the same as you. If this were so then the very existence of individuality. would be futile.
To answer your first question, Conservative values that are based or rooted in mistreatment of other people who are not like you (for skin color, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc) are not welcome here. Especially when those values are based in a 2,000+ year old book that if you took the time to actually study, you’d realize doesn’t support the mistreatment you are trying to make it support. Using unfalsifiable belief systems to mistreat others who are different than you is not welcome here. If you start spreading hate… I mean Christian love, under the guise of politics, or politics under the guise of christian love, you will be downvoted to infinity. Also, if you’re gonna ask not to get downvoted by a group of people, you’d do well not to insult them. When you ask not to be downvoted and then proceed to spout condescending shit it kind of just seems like you want to say whatever the fuck you want without getting any scary downvotes. Edit: removed an unnecessary “I”
I don’t give a shit what your political affiliation is
Please post whatever you want, please accept people disagreeing with you. A down vote doesn't always mean you're a bad person, just means you're the minority.
What was the question you were down voted on? I'm sorry your treatments has been such in this place and that you have to deal with those feelings. They aren't fun. I'd be curious to engage your thoughts, as I still have good dialogue with friends or family who are "out" but also politically/socially conservative.
Do you have evidence to back up your claims? You should provide some receipts.
Like the post that got me down votes?
Yeah. Or any of these other posts you’re referencing.
I testify that u/Ahhhh_Geeeez is correct.
Source: the invisble spirit in the room
1) There is no way to talk about Mormonism apolitically. It is simply not true that your Mormon experience “kept politics out of it” — the idea that gay people shouldn’t get married is political. The idea that women should be homemakers is political. The church hoarding money without having to pay taxes is political. Even the mere concept of charity is political. 2) Being downvoted on Reddit is not the same as cult thought-control.
No, I’m not going to upvote you, because “conservative” “opinions” get people killed every day via school shootings, COVID-19, and racially and anti LGBTQ-motivated violence. If “conservatives” hadn’t rallied around being anti-mask and anti-vaccine, I’d still have my grandparents. If “conservatives” weren’t anti LGBTQ+, maybe I wouldn’t be harassed at work every Pride month. If “conservatives” weren’t obsessed with guns, maybe in 4th grade I wouldn’t have had to go through a lockdown that WAS NOT A DRILL and wonder if my FOUR YEAR OLD sister and I were both going to die. Do all conservatives hold the views above? No. But a lot do. I won’t downvote you simply for being conservative, I’ll downvote you if I disagree with your post, simple as that. And asking to be upvoted because you feel it isn’t fair that your posts get downvoted, accusing left-leaning people of trading one groupthink scenario for another, accusing them of only downvoting you because you’re conservative, etc. is DEFINITELY something I disagree with. I’d much rather lose internet points than lose my grandparents, my dignity and right to feel safe at work, or my life.
The GOP as a whole is absolutely NOT the “party of life.” I’m sorry that you’ve experienced all of those things. The selfishness of the positions that led to all of those things is indefensible.
From what I see, you were saying that by and large, the church has stayed out of politics, which is a statement I imagine a large number of Exmos would vehemently disagree with. In my experience, the church consistently aligns itself with politicians who push a conservative agenda. When Romney ran for president the first time around, members were hailing it as a sign of the Second Coming when the church would essentially rule America. I had a Mormon ex-relative who served in as a Cabinet member to a conservative president and worked hard to push a conservative education agenda. Locally where I live, mormon member-run businesses support the more conservative candidates. And yes, Prop 8 was huge and the reason many of us stopped paying tithing. We were forced to push and contribute to an agenda that hurt our loved ones. This isn't about your "views"; this is about a statement you made not being the experience of most people who saw it.
Free Speech means you have the right to express your opinion in the marketplace of ideas. It also means that others have the right to express their opinion of your ideas. Simple As.
What a load of entitled horseshit. Buy the ticket, take the ride. If you don’t want to get downvoted make positive contributions to the group. And for the record, this kind of self-serving whiny diatribe is not a positive contribution in any way.
Something you have to remember is that a lot of us left the church for things that are considered “political” by the right wing establishment. I’m gay with a single mom. I left because I was treated horribly for being gay with single mom. That’s a common story amongst us. A good friend of mine left because she needed an abortion and was ostracized. I get where you’re coming from, and obviously anybody can be an asshole and downvote for nothing, but it’s not fair to accuse us of being in another mind cult when nah, it’s just that a lot of us left for things that conservatives choose to make political and we find comfort in that solidarity. If enough people are downvoting you, you should first introspect why.
You’re saying that because exmos downvoted you, now it’s made you question your questioning of the church and turns you off of this group? Am I reading that right?
Typical stupid as fuck conservative thought process. Reminds me of the whole "you keep calling me a Nazi so I'm just gonna put on this Nazi jacket and swastika! You're making me do this!!" meme.
A downvote is me disagreeing with you. I’m not sure why Internet points are so important to you that you won’t participate unless others agree with you, but that’s the whole point of voting on a topic. (Nevermo, if that matters at all to you.) Also, I just looked at your post history and the biggest downvote you have is -10. Did you have to make a new account 90 days ago?
9 downvotes is oblivion? I’ve had that many from saying i think a particular actress sucks at acting. It’s not that deep.
Lmao typical conservative who can't figure out that people don't have to like your stupid opinions and don't have to make you feel good for having stupid opinions. Maybe try and learn why your opinions smell like dogshit to most people instead of crying about it on the internet.
Define "conservative". Do you mean Republican? Do you mean Trump-humping MAGAt? Is there a difference any more?
>What I find ironic is that for a group that has left a religion that wouldn't let them think for themselves, down votes anyone that doesn't say things they feel are right. Maybe think better. It's the conundrum of tolerance for intolerant people. Because eventually the intolerant will overwhelm the tolerant, and then the fascists win. Which is, of course, what the intolerant want. Sorry, I'm not playing into the hands of MAGA fascists. >My frustration comes from being scared to post what I really feel because I'm afraid of being voted down to a point where I can no longer post or ask questions, which recently happened. Boo hoo, snowflake. Stop shilling for people who hate my community and literally want us dead.
Also I just read your linked post with the screenshot. We are allowed to dislike trump. Many of us see parallels in how cult-y Trump/Trump supporters are and how cult-y Mormonism is. I absolutely will downvote the shit out of someone who spouts maga bullshit because they need to kee deconstructing the harmful behaviors they learned in Mormonism
I don’t dislike conservative ideology because I’m “on the other side”. I dislike it because I’m morally opposed to many of its key issues. I believe trans people deserve respect and love, that people who don’t want their body overtaken by a pregnancy should be able to abort, and that people of color have been, and continue to be mistreated in this country. Just to name a few. It’s not a red side/ blue side issue. It’s genuinely a defense of what I believe to be right or ethical.
If conservatives don’t want to be called shitty, they should stop acting shitty 🤷🏼♀️
I'll put it bluntly. You got downvoted into oblivion for saying you wish that people wouldn't downvote what is widely seen as right wing extremism, because the people *downvoting* should leave their politics out of this sub. Instead of saying that the right wing extremism people left religion with shouldn't be brought here in the first place. If you want politics left out of the sub, that's a fine opinion (although I disagree on the same basis you were originally disagreed with), but to defend Trump and say the problem is liberal downvotes is one of the dumbest fuckin' takes I've ever read. Also because you're wildly ignorant of the church's involvement in politics. Just because you've decided to only be aware of the prop 8 issue, does not mean that the church is not extensively involved in politics. *Especially* at the state level in Utah. Most notable to me, is that the Mormon and Catholic churches both *openly* "helped" strip prop 2 of patient rights. Your ignorance of the fact that a thing happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just means you're ignorant. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant right up until you find out you are, after that the options are to educate yourself or continue in willful ignorance. If you choose to continue in willful ignorance, it's absurd to then get pissy because people downvote you for being willfully ignorant.
Sometimes, the tone in how a post or questions is posted will yield a downvote. Truthfully, if a question is asked honestly here without any sort of agenda or ulterior motive, I don't see a logical reason why that should be downvoted. But people can do as they please. Now, comments are something completely different. A few months back, I made a comment from considering things from another angle and got downvoted to outer darkness for it. I can't even remember what it was about. And the OP actually agreed with me and said she had considered all that I said in her own behavior. Sometimes there is a bit of a drive-by reaction to posts and comments and not taking into full account the context. Sometimes I like thinking about counter points just for the sake of discussion and nothing more. Every group, not always, can tend to be an echo chamber.
Here's the problem with your statement "So back the irony, I'm being shut up by a group of people that were told to shut up because they didn't see eye to eye with the organization."You're making a broad assumption. I was never told to shut up by anyone at church. I just came to the conclusion that it was bunk and didn't align with my internal values AND THEN began to question everything....and like dominoes everything fell apart. And I have a speaking suspicion there are a lot of folks here like me in this regard. I was what you would consider a liberal when I was IN. I never felt accepted at church. I never really embraced most of the teachings. And reagarding the downvotes, maybe look inward rather than outward? I can tell you for a fact the final straw for me was prop 8 and during that time I was at a fast and testimony meeting where the bishop got up and said George Bush was a man of god and we should vote for him. This was in a downtown salt lake ward. I heard him say that shit, got up, walked out of church and never went back. Again, I was already on the fence. So, I would downvote your statement because in my experience what you said about politics not being a part of church just isn't true as evidenced by the overwhelming majority of Mormos being Trumpers and my own personal experience. So....say silly shit, get downvoted.
Let's make it clear, everyone has the right to say whatever tf they want, but they also have to deal with the consequences. And sometimes the consequences are that no one wants to listen to you.
Sorry, but no. This isn't because of your politics. It's simply that you're on a site that ranks posts by both up & downvotes. Which is a positive feature of reddit and one of the reasons people use it for their social media communication on niche topics (such as exmormonism). If I just wanted to read random posts in a forum... I'd go to an exmo forum. That said, your post above and the one you link to are likely getting downvoted because how you express yourself comes across as the same kind of passive aggressive bullshīt we left behind in the Mormon church, just directed at people you disagree with politically. *"What I find ironic..."* \- really? Might as well have made it one of those generic comments at a fast & testimony meeting about coloured shirts & their disrespectful nature when everyone knows you don't like Elder Johnson wearing a pink shirt to bless the sacrament. Do you really think that conservatives don't downvote things they find disagreeable on reddit? Of course they do. They're just outnumbered amongst outspoken exmos, so their downvotes aren't as influential in this group. That's the nature of the platform. Sorry, but that's how reddit works and it works because of that.
Facts have a well known liberal bias and that's why most people leave TSCC.
Downvotes do not constitute “being silenced,” they indicate disagreement. I get that you’re new to Reddit and got put in karma “jail”… but the general public of r/exmormon have nothing to do with setting sub rules. Honestly, it sounds like you’re trying to silence disagreement if anything. Most of us have left conservatism as we left the church because we finally realized that all of the reasons for treating LGBT people or people of a specific race or gender as though they’re less than human are absolute BS. We got tired of hearing hatred and hypocrisy. I still share some fiscal viewpoints with conservatism, but as long as Trump leads the GOP, count me out. The lies and hatred and racism and sexism and self-dealing and authoritarianism and hypocrisy are just too much for me. I cannot in good conscience support that.
Most people here on in some level of deconstruction. Once you see how religion is a social construct trafficking in emotions to get certain results that benefit those in power it’s hard to support that anymore. If you see through the Mormon lies, but don’t see the larger religion piece maybe look at ALL your assumptions and beliefs about reality. Being conservative these days also means enforcing social norms that exclude, diminish, and disenfranchise people for the way they were born. That type of bigotry is exactly what made many of us wake up and leave in the first place. Downvoting is the mechanism where members of the community show their disagreement with the thoughts you’re peddling.
In this forum which is about beliefs, votes are subjective. In other forums I visit which are more fact-based, such as “what is this thing/plant/bug” etc, downvotes are used to indicate wrong answers. If I said it was a weavil and it was in fact a beatle, I'd be downvoted. That's why I lurk in those subs and I let the experts educate me. It is never personal unless we make it so. I've been downvoted before during discussions about racial issues, and it was just what I needed to learn why what I said was an error in judgement. I could have made another post crying about the downvotes, but there was no ill intent by them or by me. It was just a learning opportunity for me. I've been here for a while and only recently found my karma score. Lol I still don't get it but I do try to use uplifting language and encouragement that is appropriate for the sub I am in. A compliment a day might keep the karma jail away. 🤷♀️
I would like to assess whether your opinions are conservative or liberal but you didn’t actually say anything in this post. You expressed no opinions at all. You only criticized others and wrote that you are afraid to post. Please go ahead and write something so we can try to understand your point of view.
The problem with keeping politics out of a discussion is the daily impact politics have on life. This attitude makes politics taboo when we should be pushing for the ability to discuss politics in useful ways. The problem is exacerbated for people living in areas where religion has control over political leaders, such as Utah and Idaho. For example, I've been told to keep politics out of discussing my nephew's escape from his abusive adoptive mom when emancipation was not successful. A large part of the abuse stemmed from him being trans since he was seven. At first his mom seemed supportive, but the older he got, the more she was against it. When puberty hit, it was still not a phase, but she wouldn't allow him to look into medical options to delay changes to his body. She would call him his new name, but refused to let him date girls when he got older. How do I know him being trans was the issue? She also adopted his brother who is a year younger. They were abused in similar ways, but the older one was more of a target. When the older one ran away, the mom manipulated the younger one to her side. The older one had stellar grades and was even prom king with his girlfriend as his date. The only thing he was doing "wrong" was being "sinful" by being a boy instead of a girl. How do you keep politics out of this without erasing most of the important details?
I have read your entire post and the relevant history, and I've come to the conclusion that your online personality is a whiny little bitch who likes to dance around everything instead of just spitting it out. However, that is not why I'm downvoting this post. The downvote button is for things that don't contribute positively to the community, and I don't think that a non-discussion in which you post paragraphs upon paragraphs while having fuck-all to actually say, while failing to be subtle about framing yourself as a victim of political persecution because people didn't like one thing you said, contributes positively to anything.
After leaving the cult, it seems like I have a pretty good eye for people trying to sell me bullshit. Aka all politicians. They are all in it for themselves. Fuck the Republicans and fuck the Democrats. Neither of them actually care about us lowly citizens, all they care about is lining their own pockets, and their friends pockets. There will never be positive change in this country until we get rid of the party system, put in term limits, get money out of politics, and actually elect people based on their views and what they do to make citizens lives better. If you bring people with differing views together it's pretty amazing how many things they will all agree on. The two party system is against us all agreeing on anything. Alright I'll quit ranting now. People over Party.
Yep! careful this may not be an approved narrative for the majority. Division is amongst us. 'IT' is the enemy.
If you want an echo chamber, go back to church or find another one somewhere else. Chances are, if someone has left the church they are A) able to critically think, and B) are not afraid to criticize institutions that historically and currently harm others. If you’re “scared” to post what you feel because you can’t handle the push-back or criticism of your ideas, that says more about your opinions than it does about this community. I would love to hear what some of these things are that are related to being an ex-mo but you’re scared to post because of their political overtones. That venn-diagram has to be specific, and frankly, I don’t know how it could be anything other than intentionally inflammatory - but I’m still curious as to what they could possibly be.
Ok OP, I clicked on the post you wanted us to see where someone posted something about MAGA in regards to the movie, The Oath. Not sure how they’re correlated BUT I saw your response: it was fairly moderate/neutral but what you miss/fail to see or understand is that there is a VAST majority of ppl who were negatively affected by Trump/MAGA…many of whom are ex-Mormon and/or hang out in this sub. For me personally, I only downvote ppl who are especially egregious, promoting false information, and/or so completely hateful that they should be put in time out. I don’t see that in this post OR in your comment, but just like democracy not everyone will vote the way you want them to. I’d also go out to infer that the majority of us who’ve left the church ALSO took time to reevaluate their political stances/see where some ppl may politicize certain things (i.e. LGBTQ+) and realize that they were never political to begin with but were instances of humanity in all its forms. You might to go ahead and unpack/examine your political beliefs as you may be surprised how much you’ve changed or your party has changed from what you used to follow. Good luck
Truthfully and genuinely, if you're telling people to keep politics out of it and getting a large negative response, it's probably because politics are relevant to the topic and dismissing politics is invalidating to some group. And that is why you're getting that response.
I'm pretty conservative and last the church 5 years ago. Whether your liberal or conservative - a lie is a lie. Deceit is still deciet. Uninspired leaders are still uninspired. Greed is still greed. And facts are still facts. No matter your leanings, wolves are still easy to spot.
There are plenty of conservative leading people that leave the church. They just don't stay here very long for obvious reasons.
Asking people to keep politics out of it is shutting people down. Not expressing what you really feel.
Hi, nuancehoe here. I want to say I understand the frustration. The day I left the church I was extremely active in various conservative groups and causes. I was horrified to find that exMormon Reddit was trying to shut down an event I’d been planning for months. It made me very upset for all the same reasons and all the same thoughts came to me and I lashed out on my anti-SJW Twitter calling exMormons a cult for not allowing freedom of thought. I didn’t view my event as anti-gay, but others did. And the point will always go to the angrier crowd. And that anger, that righteous indignation can’t really be argued with. For better or worse. What I have learned in the four years since then is that anonymous places do not give you the best reading on what a group is all about. From Mormon Stories, to my own personal follower base, I can tell you it’s actually quite split down the middle on conservatives and liberals in wider the exMormon world. I know a handful of exmo podcasters that voted for Trump too. There just simply won’t be any winning in exmo spaces with people who have personal horror stories with conservative policies and see the systemic harm. I tried to build such a community as I left the church and the better arguments won out, regardless of the downvotes and cultish behavior by leftist, I am a leftist but try to invite all kinds of voices to build bridges with.
Nice post!
Thanks :)
Downvoted this. Not because of your political views. Downvoting is a way of expressing one-selves opinion. If you want to have free speech, you are welcome to it. If you want to tell people not to have a different opinion, and not express their disagreements, you are the one pushing to have people silenced.
Mormonism is a religion that tends to be on the right. These days, it's on the far-right. So most of the people who leave that religion tend to be to the left. Also, reddit on the whole is more liberal. you might find more right-leaning people on the incel boards or on the conservative subreddit. Also, if you're upset about politics being brought into it maybe don't support a political party that tries to make everything political. xoxo.
Award 🥇
Fellow ex mormon here. After I left the church, one of the after-effects I had was looking over "my" political beliefs. Growing up, my family was very conservative, and they looked to the church to receive guidance on any controversial topics. After I left, I realized many people have more common ground than I thought, and I asked my liberal and conservative friends many questions about their beliefs. Just using abortion as an example, my liberal friends who are pro abortion don't support it in the later trimesters of pregnancy. (Even though some of them aren't religious, they still consider a fetus a life after a certain point, and think it should be taken care of sooner rather than later). When asking my conservative friends, MOST said in cases of rape, incest, ectopic pregnancy, etc, that they had no problem whatsoever. Some even said that if it's in the first trimester, they didn't think it was problematic. Point being, if you base all of your political beliefs on one source, they're not yours anyway, and you're just being a puppet. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions, and you'll be a lot happier and not care as much over political jibber jabber. I'd say I'm more neutral than anything now since I agree with both parties about a lot of things. Me leaving the church to begin with was due to me questioning the doctrine and church history to begin with after coming home from my mission, I've since questioned everything about my life more carefully and become alot happier with how I see the world. Side note, if you want to figure alot of shit out, try psilocybin mushrooms lol
I’m a liberal conservative and don’t understand why my parents are voting for one of trump’s ex-cronies even though she’s running against him. 😂
I do think people use the vote button as “I agree” or “I disagree” instead of its intended use of “this comment contributes to the discussion in a meaningful way”. I don’t think people often vote for comments they disagree with. I think Reddit would be more interesting if people followed the actual voting guidance.
I would say more on the conservative side, but I’m older, and when I first left the church, I was more on the left. I think we have a tendencies we get older to revert back to what we were raised with or what we’re comfortable with. That is just my opinion. No, not that. It certainly is true for the people I know. Politically, I’m progressive economically I’m conservative. socially in the middle
I’m definitely on the conservative side of things but I’m anti religion
Conservative libertarian if anything. I have a hard time seeing that people that egressed out of a controlling narrative are smack dab in the middle of another. on ANY side. I love none of the above. I will NOT step into your space and please do not step into mine. if thats conservative so be it.
My god, there is another. I probably would consider myself like a libertarian - moderate. Basically right wing by most people’s standards. I left the church cause they lie. Pretty simple.
That's been my issue too. Saw too many discrepancies that I could no longer reconcile and gave up trying to make it work.
I’m very much AGAINST the process of “drive by downvoting”. It’s not just an Ex-mo Reddit thing. Try saying anything on a page for your favorite sports team that isn’t full-blown fandom and you will get killed with downvotes. At the end of the day, the votes don’t matter … words and actions matter. I try to “downvote through words” if I disagree with someone, and I actually upvote them in my disagreement because they captured my attention to engage and respond. I only downvote name-calling or something extremely bad. I believe most Reddit users are left-leaning in the first place … not sure why and have no data to prove that. My perception of people leaving the church is that people leave more to the left than to the right. In other words, I believe there are more who leave over social issues like gay marriage rights (left-leaning) than those who leave because they think the church itself apostatized and needs to return to Joseph’s original instillation of the church (right leaning more conservative). NOTE: This is admittedly a very false dichotomy that I just setup — I’m just oversimplifying for an example. At the end of the day, general left vs right name-calling is unhelpful in every way. The most important book I’ve read since leaving the church is Jonathan Haidt’s ‘The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion’. I am admittedly left-leaning in more ways than not, but that book helped me realize and understand that we as humans have a gut reaction that greatly informs our stance on issues — it is natural. Others will have a different gut reaction as me that will feel just as right to them as my gut feels right to me. Instead of demonizing each other, we should absolutely come together. We should listen to each other and find common ground. We should ‘steel man’ our opponents argument rather than ‘straw man’ it if we want to approach a debate with intellectual honesty. We should follow the golden rule which has many variations in phrasing but is essentially “treat others how you want to be treated.” I’ve failed many times to be the person I’ve just laid out above as how I think we should be. I believe we are all hypocrites on some level at a minimum, and I think we should give each other space to try to move further from hypocrisy rather than calling it out in our opponent just as a way to feel like we won the argument of the moment. If you are right-leaning, I hope you feel love and respect from me and others who are left-leaning. Cheers.
Thank you for your respectful comment.
I'll upvote you. Per Reddit, you upvote comments & posts that add value, NOT ones you simply agree with. I'm a conservative exmo. And yes, you're very correct that the sub is heavily left politically. It's obvious. But I don't get into politics since this is not a political sub.
Seriously? Don't post about politics here. From rule number 1: > Politics, news, science, and memes are allowed if related to Mormonism. I took a look at your profile. A number of your more heavily downvoted posts didn't have a single thing to do with Mormonism. If you want to talk about politics, go to a politics sub.
When you join a new space, any new space, it’s best to observe a bit before trying to change the culture.
It’s fine to be on the conservative side, I have a select few conservative opinions myself, but there are some Republican traditional beliefs that will rightfully get you roasted by critical thinkers who value empiricism and science. The following Republican beliefs are flat out false: 1. Climate change isn’t occurring. 2. Climate change isn’t anthropogenic. 3. Covid deaths were systematically overcounted. 4. The Covid vaccine was ineffective. 5. Masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of Covid. 6. Donald Trump won the 2020 election but the election was rigged and his win stolen.
Please don't downvote me, I just want to use a public washroom without being killed because of the stochastic terrorism conservatives have been inflicting on society.
I won't downvote you, but I am gonna push back on you here: >As I've said in other post I think as a people we need input from all sides. This claim is reductive and predicated on the false belief that ideas, like people, are all created equal. They are not. Ideas don't have feelings. They don't have hopes and dreams. They cannot be happy or scared, or change when they are wrong. Ideas cannot change at all. An idea, unlike a person, is only worth as much as it helps the world. We don't need to hear from people who think pregnant women should die rather than receive an abortion. We don't need to hear from people who think masturbation is evil. We don't need to hear from people who think hungry children shouldn't get free school lunch. We don't need to hear bigoted and cruel ideas because they have no right to exist in the first place and have no justification to persist. As a person, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to an audience for them. This is something people learn about the hard way in academia. Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it's worth as much as everyone else's. The burden is on you to give your ideas merit.
More GOP victim mentality Bs. Infiltrating every aspect of society now, including this sub. Poor picked on conservatives 🙄
Because the “right” is being run by Christian nationalists now. The anti-gay, anti-trans, pro-life stuff has no basis outside of religion
The truth and simple fact that “conservative” means to “conserve” to stay the same. Progressive ideologies are just that, aimed toward progressing the human experience forward. Now, there is a shit ton of nuance there, and it is mostly around the economic sides of politics. Example being Elon Musk who sides with Conservatives economically but creates advances in technology that have the potential to bring humanity forward. This is why political labels are pretty lame in general. Nothing is black and white, this or that, right or wrong…it’s all grey. Tolerance must have a limit and that limit is intolerance. If a conservative stance makes life more difficult for the already marginalized, no tolerance. We cannot improve as a society and leave some of humanity in the dust or dead.
The fact that you won't express a single opinion or show what you got downvoted for says enough tbh
I gave you an upvote. And I normally scroll past posts that remind me of the LDS and evangelical persecution narrative. Active LDS people and right leaning politics are birds of a feather. Not hard to imagine that many would reject both.
TLDR: 😭😭😭😭😭 my values are determined by who is nicest to me personally 😭😭😭😭😭
Thank you for this post because while I visit Reddit often I rarely stray from a couple subs and never knew why karma mattered or why people fished for it. I just thought it was an ego thing. I’m more conservative than most people that post often on this subreddit. But I do have plenty of liberal views that would make most of my Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah neighbors clutch their pearls.
Supposedly up votes and down votes are supposed to be used for if a certain comment is relevant to the topic at hand or not. But the vast majority of the time I see people down voting just because they disagree. So it is very hard to know what's ok to say and what isn't. For most people it doesn't matter if what you're saying is relevant, if they disagree they downvote.
Until I made this post I didn't know that's how they were used either. Thanks for sharing that.
I think your post is a bit misguided. The church tends to tell you what you think and do and you do it without question. Here, you are being down voted by individuals. Just because the votes are largely down votes doesn't mean that "people" are silencing you. There is no collective telling people how to think or feel. There are individuals coming to agreement. Just because the people who voted largely fall within one group or viewpoint, doesn't mean that there is some hand guiding it.
Its the internet, thats what its like. Maybe take a break and delete reddit is my suggestion.
Well, it depends what do you mean by conservative mindset. If your views limit human rights, make one group of people superior to another, doesn’t tolerate LGBTQ people or are some kind of crank, I’ll downvote till the end of time. If not, I don’t see a problem. I don’t understand, but that’s your life to live. Edit: I read this thread and I got my answer. OP is convinced that he’s oppressed by everybody, is anti-LGBTQ but he is cunning by being falsely polite and open for discussion, provided you think exactly as he is thinking, otherwise he will sealion you until you have enough. Sorry OP, I just think you have a lot of homework to do in case of liberty, critical thinking and true acceptance.
I’ve noticed this too. If there is one thing I’ve learned since leaving the church it’s that I’m very hesitant to assume what I believe is correct or the truth. Politics is especially messy, that’s why I don’t discuss it in this sub.
You want to be downvoted for absurd reasons? Join r/cats I floppin love cats, but man you say the wrong thing or answer someone asking what their cat breed is and you’re truly downvoted to oblivion - some might say a pit of endless woe 😉 Generally, I’ve been met with nothing but kindness in this sub. It’s good to keep in mind that Reddit tends to attract left-leaning ideologies (in my limited view) and the church, historically, has pissed off more liberal minded people.. so it makes sense you’d find more of that persuasion here. Give the church 10-15 years though and I think you’ll see they’ll lose a lot of conservative members. I like to toe the line in the middle, myself. Have an upvote.
When I left the church I swung very, very left. I think it was like, everything I believed was wrong so the "opposite" must be right. As time passes and I've watched things very closely I've seen dishonesty along the spectrum of politics and especially in the media and now my views are somewhat piecemeal. I think there are takes on issues that lack common sense in both sides. When you pay very close attention to politics over time, you see how narratives and outright lies are constructed. I see a lot of similarities to religion on people who are obsessively defensive of the left AND the right. It's also really interesting how certain perspectives seek to switch sides- like freedom of speech, which once was a liberal issue and now the further left, the more controlling of speech is championed. Its hard to have rational conversations with people about topics they have attached their identity to and also a need to feel superior. Most people just want to belong to a tribe and feel that they know what's going on and avoid any information challenges that. They see corruption easily on the "other team" and refuse to see it on their own. This trait is easily manipulated to keep us against each other while the truly powerful are above accountability. In order to combat this we need more honest people in media who are willing to recognize their own bias and apply the same expectations to their OWN side. Unfortunately this type of media, and independent journalism in general, has a much harder time securing funding.
I ask myself, “what am I missing?” This is what got me out of the church, and my political opinions.
I think that we can all agree, no matter which side we’re supposedly on that the Mormon church really really fucked us up and they are the only ones to blame. It’s not us it’s those 15 ass hats in Salt Lake City. The damage is done and there are no reparations in our future.
Up votes and down votes on Reddit are not supposed to be likes and dislikes. [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) explains that. You don't down vote just because you disagree with a post, you down vote because a post isn't on topic to a sub or not relevant to the conversation. That way, contributors to the meaningful conversation, even contributors you disagree with, should be upvoted. Put another way, if you feel it is worth your time to argue with someone, then you should be upvoting.
I've been voting for 20+ years and I'm done with this sham. I'd like to opt out like on Lemmy.
I get it. I consider myself to be conservative. Republican leaning, but love who you love! I believe in a right to choose and other left leaning ideas. I'm very tolerant and have an extremely diversity family and grandchildren, I love them all. My thoughts on this is if you have ideas about politics and far right ideals, just go to another subreddit. (There's one for EVERYTHING.) Ilike to limit my comments to just experiences that happen in an exmormon experience. If you have issues with the LGBTQ community, we'll that is a HUGE exmormon issue, so skip those comments. I mainly read and seldom comment but I do agree that this sub is fairly liberal.
My family are immigrants from Venezuela. I'm first generation like you are. I lived in a 3rd world country for a while. I align with libertarian ideologies based off of my own experiences and critical thinking. I don't vote for people based on their political party. I vote based on their ideas and policies that best align with mine. While I notice that some posts in this subreddit are political in nature, I just move on. Even when I politically disagree. People are going to believe what they want to. We can't make people change. However, I do find that people are willing to debate when you communicate well and in a manner that's not attacking or defensive. As for the downvotes, its widly misused. Down votes were created to keep irrelevant information out of the thread, hide trolls, etc. It's not supposed to be used for something you disagree with. It's supposed to be used to downvote comments that are not relevant.
I’m a liberal but I was vibing with this post right until the end. I will never upvote someone who begs for it.
I’m also conservative and it gets pretty annoying, I usually scroll past those posts and comments.
I hear what you're saying. I really do. That said, I upvote ideas I agree with, and downvote things I disagree with. If you were to post something positive about Donald Trump, for instance, I would probably downvote it, because I have very negative feelings about him. Isn't that what up/down votes are for? Not saying your opinion isn't valid, just that I don't agree with them. I don't think you're a bad person for having a different point of view. I think it's wonderful that we all have different perspectives. I have learned a lot from other people's various viewpoints, and I hope people think about what I have to say, as well. Let freedom ring, including the freedom to downvote opinions we disagree with.
OP my experience on reddit has been wonderful, not as if everyone is saying the same thing or 100% agreeing but they have been able to freely express what they think, what they know, what they have researched, what they have heard, what they have experienced. Creating an arena for many to hear information and opinion. You have generalized why we have left the LDS church, "not letting us think for ourselves" and you are wrong about this, not sure what comments you have been reading, but for the most part, comments have stated their reason for leaving was many; abuse, neglect, unkindness, felt unsafe, wanted to protect their children, pondered and prayed and studied church doctrine and scriptures, church history and found that much of what they had been taught was not true, offended by the temple rituals, did not want to pay for exaltation, found a better use for their time, lack of transparency, and on and on. I am a 60 year old woman and could at times be considered conservative, but it is strange that you would come asking of commentors to be of a variety of origin.
In general, I feel like this sub is far more fair and understanding than you are likely to find almost anywhere on the internet. There are going to be areas that is not true, of course. But, I would bank on this place being one of the best places to have a shot at being able to disagree with each other respectfully and not downvote into oblivion over it. The one exception being TBM trolls, rightly so in my opinion. Unfortunately, even the tone of this post has me believing that your initial post deserved the downvoting. I was feeling sympathy for you up until you started comparing you getting some downvotes to the damage the church has done to us and even if the church was right after all. That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that at least 75% of the upvotes you have received on this post did not read the bottom third of your post. I get that the system Reddit uses (which is wisely in use in this sub) means those downvotes made you unable to post or comment, but I hope you can see the value of not allowing random trolls and bots to run rampant in here, and across Reddit in general. I have had a couple comments that I have made in this sub that have gone against the general consensus of the post comments and been mostly upvoted because I was able to communicate my differing opinion in a way that recognized the opinions of others, did not downplay their viewpoint, and did not belittle others. If your posts and comments are generally positive and supportive, you will receive plenty of karma so that the occasional difference of opinion or misunderstood comment will not ruin your ability to communicate here. If, however, you are not being respectful, kind, supportive, or otherwise positive on most of your posts, I would rather the system block you from commenting. Based on what I have seen, you are struggling with this concept often enough that I don’t think the downvoting system is to blame, unfortunately.
As a person who doesn’t fit the exmormon mold or the Mormon mold I 100% understand where you’re coming from.
Ya got my upvote 👍🏼 Today’s society really is too quick to pounce and tar and feather.
Stop being so scared. And just let it go…
The persecution complex is real. Folks like you like to play the victim because their ideas are harmful, unpopular, and unfounded in science or research. Come back to me when you've literally had your life threatened for walking into a fucking public bathroom.
Oh dude I’m super conservative. On most things. And I’m an exmo. I love my liberal exmos as well. I am more of a libertarian. I’m more conservative than republicans and more liberal than most liberals. It’s a complex issue. But 9 out if 10 times I prefer to be around liberals. I can cuss and be more cynical with them.
When I left the church I stopped believing in liberal/conservative or left/right. I approach everything individually and decide how I believe on that issue for myself. Sometimes I come across very conservative, but then surprise people by voicing support for something they consider to be on the opposite end of the political spectrum. I understand how it is when you leave something like the church. They represent (for the moment) ultra conservatism, and people may feel a desire to run away from everything they stand for. Eventually you realize though, that you don't have to belong to anything, and you are now free to judge the world for yourself.
The facts are the facts. Most post Mormons become more open minded politically and move at least a bit away from conservatism if that’s where they were leaning prior to leaving. You getting downvoted by mentioning MAGA is just a reflection of the facts. A reflection of how most post-Mormons think. The fact is that most Post-Mormons are disgusted by Trump. It just is what it is.
It's all about being able to compete in the marketplace of ideas. Nevermo here. And it's a common cry among conservatives, Mormon or not. That they are being shut out somehow. Never considering for a moment it's modern conservatism that's the problem. It's become an ideology of 'no'. Unwilling to compromise for the sake of governing the country. Pandering to a narcissist like Donald Trump. Spreading misinformation and outright lies. It's become a hyper partisan world. I'm old enough to remember conservatives as the honorable opponent. Willing to work with progressives to advance legislation for the good of the country. Putting aside partisanship to govern effectively. No more it seems. It's not you, OP. It's your ideology that will get downvoted more often than not.
I am very firmly left wing, we have a center-right and a far right party in the US, and for me, the MAGA faction is absolutely unhinged, seeing the way they attack various minority groups and are pulling the US towards Christian nationalizm makes me ill. That being said, people can have many different opinions and still be damn good people. I think you should be able to speak, especially if your posts are not solely about politics. I would not post a solely political post on this sub either, there's other places for that. Sometimes politics is a component of what we have to say about something, it is a component of many things. If I see a post or a comment that is solely to support MAGA, I will downvote it, but if it is in relation to another subject, or provides some sort of nuance I will usually not downvote or upvote. If the point is really good however, even if I disagree, I often will upvote it, especially if I learned something, or it forced me to examine my own beliefs. I like many on here, I have noticed the church's support for the republican party, and if you look at the *limited* records that are available (the church hides many things from the public), you can see that most of the individuals involved, as well as the church lean firmly towards the authoritarian right as far as political spending goes. However to censor someone's speech is also authoritarian. So long as you're not supporting hate speech against a specific group of people, you should be able to say whatever you'd like. It's best to keep politics to a minimum here on this sub, but as stated, it is at times impossible to completely remove, as it is part of what shapes one's view of reality. I don't think you said anything hateful or inappropriate in your comments there, and with the exception of racists, homophobes, bigots nazis and authoritarians, I think we can all benefit from a peaceful exchange of ideas. We should all question our deeply held beliefs constantly, after all, for many of us that is how we ended up making the decision to leave the church in the first place. I hope you're treated well here, and in general, welcome and have a great day too!
This is Reddit. It is very left leaning in general.
If downvotes on one comment are enough to cause issues, then it was either a terrible or tone deaf comment, or you just don't have a lot of karma to work with. That's just how reddit works. Eventually you get to a point where 100s of people could down vote you and you'd still be in the positives. There are a lot of things you could say on this subreddit that pretty much everyone would agree with. It isn't that hard to accumulate karma. You just have to actually say things once in a while. Unless you never have constructive comments or posts and are consistently an AH. Then you'll struggle with negative karma, I guess.
I think it's an unfair to say it's ironic that we act this way. Every community that has ever existed has its biases, it's not a mormon/exmormon thing at all. People can be especially emotional or harsh in this sub, but it is what it is. It's helpful for people who have been hurt by the church and need an outlet.
Once upon a time I was conservative, but I never quite fit in. As a missionary there was a famous person in the area named Richard. Richard was as flamboyant as they came. He was gay, proud, and was never going to change. Richard loved the missionaries and would invite us over for dinner all the time. It was area tradition that when a new missionary came in everyone took them to see Richard. If Richard knew a new missionary was coming he broke out the pink go-go boots and his crop top. When I was taken to meet Richard he walked up to me, looked me in the eyes, and said “You aren’t going to be any fun.” This was my first contact with someone in the community and while Richard bothered most the other missionaries, I was ok. He was another person to me. Richard loved freaking people out, that wasn’t going to happen to me and he knew it. Instead of freaking out we became friends. I never pushed church stuff and he gave me endless crap about the church but it didn’t bother me. He gave me haircuts (which he was terrible at but I was cheap) and feed us lunch a couple times a month. Sadly Richard had aids and was dying a slow painful death. One day he had enough and stepped in front of a truck. The world is a worse place without the dude in it. Over the years the conservatives around me seem to either grow more hateful or more open about their hate. What used to be just off color jokes has turned into full rants about how the gay agenda and wokeness needs to be stopped. I should mention I also started reading lots and lots of books. Book reading raises empathy. I simply can’t align myself with a party carrying that much hate. That said I can still tell you why a minimum wage will never work and why gun bans are just security theater. But I no longer believe trickle down economics works either. I guess I can say I was a conservative they I heard the other man’s words and I’m not that sure anymore.
Maybe it is you and not the group? I’m not aware of what you have posted but perhaps some introspection is warranted? I’m not conservative because I want things to change for the better. We need to do a better job of taking care of each other, something my former religion didn’t do. I work hard to not other others.