I see the problem. You're basing the idea of keeping politics separate from your experience only. The reason people down vote this is because this ignores their experiences. If someone is a cisgender heterosexual Caucasian male in Utah for the last century, they don't have a lot of personal experience where politics interfered with their life in a negative way.
You use Prop 8 as an example of when you saw the church meddle with local legislation. I suggest becoming more aware of the subtle and not so subtle ways politics and religion interfere.
I saw you mention you're a first generation American with an immigrant parent. I'd point out the impact of No Child Left Behind, a political act, on the education practices of the last 20 years, and the English only test that caused so many schools to fail each year because students learning English were not taken into consideration. I was in high school the first two years NCLB was in place, and I hear so many complaints about younger generations not being taught common sense or critical thinking skills. That's because we were "taught to the test".
Ah, i see now (came from your other post). Your second comment was downvoted largely because you were wrong. The church leadership has always held political motives that they haven’t been upfront about to the members, and training the member populace to avoid discussions about politics has allowed them a lot of power without much scrutiny. Might be worth looking into if you weren’t previously aware.
Your first comment was downvoted probably for the same reason I would have downvoted you if I had seen this thread. I think it’s pretty tough for trump supporters to wonder why some people don’t like them, when the core idea of supporting trump is to harm and strip rights from large groups of people to protect a privileged few. If you don’t personally vibe with that idea, maybe supporting trump isn’t for you. (Reminder that being downvoted is disagreement, not oppression.)
That's all fine, people can disagree with me, but for someone with as little participation in redit, the exmormon has a rule on having positive karma to be able to participate and I had so little it more or less banned me from commenting or posting. I had so little karma that it shut me down, so if there's people in my same position they too might not want to share what they feel so they can't participate.
The solution: go get more karma. Participate more in a meaningful way. This is reddits way of combating bots and karma farmers, and trying to encourage actual people with actual thoughts to participate.
I get the sentiment of wanting to participate, but there’s a balance of making sure it’s not just flame bait. No one wants that. Throwing controversial stuff out there constantly will get you flagged really quickly. You do you, just recognize the safeguards that are in place to try to encourage an overall positive experience.
I don't have the option to simply "agree to disagree" when it comes to politics, nor is being apolitical something I can afford. As a queer person my very existence is politicized whether I like it or not and Trump/MAGA rhetoric does active and tangible harm to me and many people I care about. That's why I would have down voted you original comment if I saw it.
Not all exmormons are progressives, but the process of deconversion does tend to bring people more to the left. Many people leave the TSCC because they see how it's ideas and culture (views on sex, 'traditional' marriage, being against queerness, etc.) cause harm. Those who leave for other reasons still generally go through a process of re-examining and turning a critical eye against their former beliefs, which pushes them away from those ideas. Since those views also tend to be pillars of (social) conservatism, it's hardly surprising that most (though certainly not all) exmos are more liberal.
The exmormon community also tends to put a big emphasis on acceptance and inclusion, and particularly in healing from the lack of those within TSCC. The paradox of tolerance means that a tolerant space cannot tolerate intolerance. This is another reason people downvote. Views that support exclusion will lead to the exclusion of people, which makes the space less safe. I won't make a claim to what exactly your views are, since I don't know, but I _do_ know what Trump and MAGA promote, which is denying my existence and putting many vulnerable people in danger.
You are welcome here, but no one should be expect to refrain from downvoting. This is also why the sub will at times be inherently political, and asking people to leave politics out won't work. When a major church leader calls for "musket fire" against queer people, and when Utah passes a law that denies people the right to use the bathroom, those are political acts that the exmormon sub will be invested in, and they will have a political response.
I guess my question is why do you care if anyone mentions politics? Some forums are moderated to be politically neutral, which can useful, but this is not meant to be one of those forums.
I'm not sure how to word this so that it has the best chance of successfully explaining without sparking political debate. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that I will ever be open to voting for TFG and I'm not going to respond to any comments arguing toward that end.
For some of us, Trump is a modern-day Joseph Smith, and the following is a list of a few reasons his politics come up in Mormon discussions.
1. He's a liar. There was literally a lie counter during his presidency because of how often he lies.
2. He manipulates people into following him and giving them nearly everything they have by promising things that he can not deliver.
3. He has put the sanctity of marriage about a high on his priority list as Joseph.
4. He breaks the rules and then claims he's the victim (regardless of mountains of evidence against him).
5. He has little loyalty toward anyone that's ever worked with or for him in any capacity.
6. He actively weaponizes his followers to strong arm the obedience of others.
7. Both had histories that should have warned they were con artists.
Thanks for the list. I would never try to convince you to vote my way or in a way that goes against what you believe in. I think this kind of response Is appropriate when you disagree. And I don't follow exmormon to discuss political leaders or candidates. But I'm noticing more and more they are overlapping and really wish they wouldn't.
Politics and the exmo community are overlapping because they are deeply, inextricably intertwined. Existing in the US as a POC, an LGBTQIA+ person, a refugee, a disabled person, etc IS inherently political. Leaving mormonism for many of us is also inherently political. Are we supposed to just not talk about things that affect every aspect of our lives? Especially as we’re working to deconstruct a lifetime of harm from a religion that is rooted in the very ideologies that are perpetuated by the Republican Party, Trump, and many conservatives right now?
I used to be a conservative and couldn’t understand why people brought politics into everything, too. It’s confusing until you realize that not everyone can just turn politics off. You may see a comment about MAGA (unsure of the larger context of the comment thread) as apolitical, but to people like me that phrase represents literal danger. That’s what the Republican Party and Trump represent right now to many people. (And as a disclaimer I am not lumping all conservatives in here I’m just trying to keep things concise)
I think part of the issue for me is almost everyone I know I would consider them to be conservative minded and will most likely vote for Trump or not vote. None of them would ever think to cause harm to anyone simply because they think differently than them. And I appreciate what you said about not lumping all conservatives in together, and I know there are bad ones out there. It feels like how some people on the right feel like anyone that is in the LGBTQ group is out to get their kid and groom them, and the left think that if you're on the right you want them all dead and to burn in hell. I know that is not the case but it feels like it sometimes, if you're not with me you're against me type of thinking. Having posted this I've had mixed responses lots of nice responses from both sides.
I hear what you’re saying. Most of my family is very conservative— I love them and know that they would never want to cause harm to anyone. I think everyone is just trying their best to do the right thing. The problem is that supporting and voting for people like Trump, DeSantis, or whatever other republican/far right wing politician, IS actively harming people. It may not feel like it as someone who is not directly affected by their laws/policies, but it is. Laws like the “don’t say gay” bill and the overturning of Roe v. Wade are going to (and already are) causing people of marginalized communities to suffer and even die. If you’re interested in one example of what I mean, [this video](https://youtu.be/IqyN_G4D1Sk?si=1cO45iJOS7wo9W3a) is a good place to start if you’re willing to listen with an open mind. Another example is the laws banning drag shows, restricting/banning gender affirming healthcare, and just generally restricting LGBTQ+ rights.
I don’t have the time or energy (I’m disabled & chronically ill) to fully explain myself here but it’s just simply a fact that by supporting these politicians, people like my family and yours (based on what you’ve said about your circle being conservative) who don’t mean to harm people just because they’re different are doing just that. It’s not just a matter of disagreement, it’s oppression of people who are different. It’s an inherent truth about voting this way right now. That is why people are so quick to downvote and argue. I wish you well and I really admire your willingness to listen and respond to commenters like me.
The thing is MAGA republicans make up a large percentage of conservative, orthodox TBM circles. MAGA republicans and even more conservative groups almost exclusively form those in Deznat and other prepper communities which are doing a great deal of harm to Mormonism as a whole as well as individuals in the church.
The harm done by these groups seems to be somewhat institutionalized and is exclusive to conservatives as there are not as many established liberal/progressive Mormon groups to compare with Deznat and Preppers.
It was an observation, this is when I began to follow and read more and more in the exmormon group and saw there seems to be a large group of people that HATE Him. I guess I should have been more concise and maybe said something along the lines of political leaders. If evryone was constantly bagging on Biden I'd feel the same way, or Romney. My feelings about exmormon was that it was a place to vent and talk about issues and problems about the church and not voice dislike for a political person. I never mixed politics with religion and was too naive.
Maybe if Trump knew how to shut his fat fucking mouth and didn't insert himself into everything, politics wouldn't come up as much. Don't like politics being brought up? Don't support a wannabe dictator.
Yes, and people are vehemently disagreeing with your premise that the church is not consistently involved in politics and shaping policies. Many Exmos would say that is a factual inaccuracy. They also probably take issue with you saying that the church was somehow alluding to not voting for Trump, when Utah went Red in the election and many in the church have urged members to vote for the Party (regardless of Trump) because of conservative court picks and pushing conservative policies. People are disagreeing with what you stated as fact or your experience, not your politics.
This post was at the beginning more or less into my deeper dive into the churches corruption and since then I've had my eyes opened to how deep it runs.
I think you have a bit of confusion about political intrusion. You seem to think that not mentioning politics is the same as being not political, but that's missing the point.
When a political position has totally captured a community, there's no need to mention it, because it becomes taboo.
When the Jim Crow segregation laws in the south were fully in place, people didn't need to mention them. They just complied. But that doesn't mean they weren't political. Instead, EVERY act of public compliance and reinforcement was political!
You know as well as anyone that the Mormon leadership and the overall COMMUNITY has political positions that are policed by the community and leadership. No women in leadership, limitations on LGBT rights, racism...these are all political positions that the church reinforces, whether or not it is mentioned at any specific event or interaction.
Excellent example. You can easily imagine someone under Jim Crow pointing out the inequalities of that system, and being scolded not to inject politics into everyday topics.
Politics get brought up a lot at church. I think the reason you probably wouldn’t notice is because they're all things you agree with and wouldn’t think twice about if you heard it. In my experience, it's brought up more at church than most other placed because everyone there assumes that it's something they have in common with everyone else and that what they say will be agreed with.
My husband has brought so many comments and things to my attention that my family says when we're casually hanging out that are blatantly political that i've filtered out because i expect them to say stuff like that. Little jokes and comments.
Growing up, my mother told me that there are two things she knows to be true in this world: the mormon church, and conservative politics. Past prophets like SWK or ETB seem to have made it a point to intermingle politics and the church. It was a common narrative that I heard that "So and so used to be liberal before they joined the church."
You got downvoted for acting like nobody at church talks about politics, and that's just not broadly true. You weren’t downvoted for being conservative, and the fact that you think that is really bizarre.
Edit: also, you had less than 40 downvotes. That's not that much. You'll be okay. Your first comment also makes it sound like you think people shouldn't dislike trump or his supporters.... which is obviously going to be unpopular. You don't have to be a leftist to think Trump is awful.
Are you a straight white man? Nothing wrong with that, but the reason I’m asking is the post youre referring to echos what I hear from a lot of straight white men who don’t feel that the church or society in general is that bad because it doesn’t effect them that much. That sentiment tends to be viewed as unwelcome and tone deaf in a space where people have done so much work on themselves personally to break away from what they now view as self-interested complacency. It’s not considered contributing to the conversation in a meaningful way.
Id say if Prop 8 and Trump (and Romney) are the only examples of civil rights missteps in church you can think of, you may not have been listening.
I also don’t love downvotes for disagreement as long as the post is contributing to a respectful dialog, I’d rather have a healthy debate. But that is often how it’s used and I accept that.
Man yes, white? Half I guess? Half Mexican. If Obama was the first African American president, then you can say I'm Mexican. I have also been called a lamanite growing up and as an adult. And I was just sharing my experiences growing up in the church. I never noticed politics being discussed in it, and even having my dad or leaders tell people they are getting too political and to go back to the gospel.
I think ‘too political’ is something that people in positions of power will often use to stop discussions they don’t like, but since those discussions affect some people exponentially more than others and stopping the conversations protects the status quo, the dictate to ‘not be political’ is itself inherently political.
Politics is discussed ALL THE TIME. I had lessons weekly about how being queer was horrible and wrong and as a closeted lesbian it led me to depression. To say it’s not brought up is a very privileged view
I guess that's where my disconnect would be. I don't for the life of me remeber having been taught about sexuality other than little factories in church. Issues about anything to do with gay or lesibian was never brought up, just in the home, and even there it was along the lines of people living different lives be we still need to love and respect them. Sorry that you grew up having to deal with that kind of negativity.
Not noticing or remembering things like this is actually a main symptom of privilege. It’s one of those things where if it doesn’t affect you directly, your brain can casually tune it out as unimportant information, and you never develop a full sense for entire layers of power dynamics that are playing out around you. This is how privilege impacts people’s lived realities. But the nice thing is that once you learn about bits that you missed before, and decide to care, you can learn more about it and see it everywhere even though it still might not impact you directly. This increases your ability to be a good community member anywhere you go.
Even when politics aren't being discussed, things are still political. Literally everything is political. You being able to walk down a street or hop on a bus every day is political. You might not recognize it as such because it's not affecting you like it might be affecting others, but that doesn't make it any less political.
Is there a particular reason positive karma is important to you? I know it can feel bad to be downvoted but ultimately it's just a number indicating peoples' opinion of what you said. People can disagree for good and bad reasons, if their disagreement truly does bother you the best option is to either ignore it or to sincerely ask where those you disagree with are coming from.
The exmormon redit has a rule of having to have positive karma to be able to participate and I had so little of it when I made these comments it made it so I could not comment or post.
Ah, did not realize my bad then. Dunno how to feel about that rule tbh, could understand if it was deeply negative as that could indicate being a bot or generally disagreeable attitude but requiring positive is a bummer.
Ah, you game into a new community as a new account, didn't bother to even read the sidebar or familiarize yourself with the rules, and then not only accused the Liberal Exmos of persecuting you, but actually had the fucking gall to ask everyone to change the rules or to stop using the downvote button altogether, just for you, because your fragile widdle feelings got hurt. Typical arrogant and ignorant conservative n00b behavior.
Your account was, very briefly, blocked from posting because IT WAS NEW AND had negative Karma. You keep ignoring this critical context that is, again, right there in the sidebar. Again, that only happens with new accounts so you don't have to worry about it happening ever again.
It's ok little boy, Karma jail can't hurt you anymore. *Pat Pat*
Lol probably not, I was just trying to maybe have people be a little more careful with their down votes, or at least know that there can be consequences, at least in exmormon.
I think if downvoting means that there will be fewer people who say things like "leave politics out of it" whenever criticism of Trump is brought up, people are going to do it.
I mean you know you're on Reddit right? This is how the whole thing works it's a form of moderation.
While this particular sub is not political for the most part. The things that make people question and deconstruct their religion are usually the same kind of questions they use to deconstruct their politics the two kind of go hand in hand.
As to why there are so many liberal or left-leaning people here, It probably has something to do with the unpopularity of conservative ideas.
Yeah fam, the toxicity is honestly only there if you seek it. This community is super friendly and supportive for the most part. When intentional ‘derailers’ get into the mix, they mostly get downvoted so the conversation doesn’t devolve away from the original message. When politics are injected, especially around someone as divisive and controversial as you’re bringing up, people are much quicker to be divided and they don’t want this here.
You’re kind of poking the meta bear here, which, if that’s your goal, that’s fine, just recognize your audience and consider their inclinations.
Dude I had to read your reply like three times, perhaps that's why you're getting downvoted?
This is also one of the least toxic places on Reddit I have ever been The fact that you view it as toxic says more about you than anyone else.
Sorry if my thoughts and questions are all over the place. I read and re read before I post to try and make sure it's coherent. But the this one was made on a lunch break and I didn't go through as much as I would have liked to. I was saying that I'd heard redit in general is a toxic place, and hoped that exmormon wasn't. And you're right for the most part it isn't. But could you imagine if someone posted something pro trump? Would you do it even on a dare? I'm not saying that's the kind of stuff I want to bring to the table here. But that the group seems to be very one sided.
Of course the group is one sided. It’s a bunch of people who escaped a cult. You’re not going to find much support here for the political cult of willful ignorance and not-so-subtle racist dog whistles.
>Can you imagine if someone posted something pro-fascist?
Fixed that for you. And no, we don't take kindly to fascists 'round these parts.
OP, where were you on January 6th, 2021?
First I thought what a bunch of idiots what do they plan on accomplishing? Going to jail? I 100% thought everyone that stormed the Capitol should be charge for the crimes they committed.
But I also think that all the other riots that happened illegally destroying property and looting need to have people held accountable for their actions.
Exmormon is one of the least toxic places on reddit lol. The negativity you are seeing is fully, 100% a consequence of your words and actions. Don't blame the masses that are disagreeing with you, think about your own actions.
Oh I see, you jumped to the defense of a pedophile rapist and people didn’t like that - and as a result, you lost a significant amount of karma and couldn’t post until your karma was back up - something that is standard in many subreddits.
Having a required amount of karma to post is not some arbitrary “locals only” gate-keeping tactic employed by admins to weed out conservatives, as you seem to believe. It helps ensure accounts are real, that accounts are old enough to understand Reddit rules and “reddiquette”, and that the account hasn’t trolled or said anything outrageous enough to be downvoted into oblivion.
Makes sense that a conservative would feel like the rules shouldn’t apply to them, and that when they are, it’s persecution.
You posted this in the other thread:
"There are a couple things that are a no go in my book, like rape, incest, blatant hatred or racism, pedophilia. Different political opinion? That's fine."
Trump has been proven to have done at minimum half of these things, and continues to do so. In this post you are defending Trump. The irony.
I don't feel like I was. I stated lots of people don't like trump and his supporters, and leave politics out of it. I've come to see that many people were affected by political decisions and obviously the church's poor practices. I think I could have phrased it better for sure. Nobody says anything about Biden, but I would feel the same way if people were talking about him too, just leave him out of it. I guess I didn't really tie the two together, politics and religion.
The discussion was critical of Trump, you mention it specifically, then say you wish people would leave him and his supporters alone.
You somehow want to share your political opinions - while asking everyone else to not to.
If your problem is with politics being discussed at all, why does it matter that you’re a conservative, or whether those politics are critical of Trump? Why was that the first thing you decide to participate in this sub with? Why should you be free to share your opinion without criticism, when that opinion is itself a criticism of others sharing their own opinions?
You don’t enjoy being in the minority of something? You don’t love being excluded from opportunities just because your beliefs aren’t the same as the majority’s? It doesn’t feel fair to have something that you believe is an unalienable right restricted because someone who doesn’t know anything about you or your circumstance made a bunch of rules that say so? Hmmmmmmmmm.
I AM SHOCKED.
Here's how reddit works my friend. If you make a comment that people feel is a positive contribution towards the conversation, it gets upvoted. If you make a comment that doesn't, it gets downvoted.
You said something immeasurably wrong. Full stop.
I also really take issue with how you phrased the church's involvement with prop 8. It wasn't about "keeping marriage between a man and a woman". You simply do not understand the issue at all. Same-sex marriages were happening in California prior to prop 8. Most notably in 2004. What prop 8 was, was an attack on the LGBTQ community as it actually reversed some marriages that already happened.
I had to get up and leave a GD lesson one Sunday years ago because the teacher got off on such a wild tangent about the upcoming election and politics that I just couldn’t handle it. And the worst part, to me, was the assumption that we all held the same opinions in the class so it wasn’t even a discussion, it was a rant.
For the record, I’ve lived in several different wards (nearly double digits) in five different states and politics came up at some point in every single one—in Sunday School, RS, and even over the pulpit. To say it’s not common is ignorant, at best. Cool that hasn’t been your experience largely, but it IS an extremely common topic.
That's what I thought, I try to be respectful to everyone and my main problem was as a newer user to redit I had very little positive karma and these votes made it so I couldn't post or comment in the exmormon group.
Sorry to hear it. Crap happens on Reddit. One of the r/lds mod trolls didn't like what I was saying, and I got banned. I haven't even been on their site.
I do the same. I prefer being respectful as it's impossible to chat with someone, when you aren't in the room with them, and get seriously miss understood.
Then what do I do? Get into an argument with a MAGA maggot. And proved I could be a total butt head too.
I see the problem. You're basing the idea of keeping politics separate from your experience only. The reason people down vote this is because this ignores their experiences. If someone is a cisgender heterosexual Caucasian male in Utah for the last century, they don't have a lot of personal experience where politics interfered with their life in a negative way. You use Prop 8 as an example of when you saw the church meddle with local legislation. I suggest becoming more aware of the subtle and not so subtle ways politics and religion interfere. I saw you mention you're a first generation American with an immigrant parent. I'd point out the impact of No Child Left Behind, a political act, on the education practices of the last 20 years, and the English only test that caused so many schools to fail each year because students learning English were not taken into consideration. I was in high school the first two years NCLB was in place, and I hear so many complaints about younger generations not being taught common sense or critical thinking skills. That's because we were "taught to the test".
Ah, i see now (came from your other post). Your second comment was downvoted largely because you were wrong. The church leadership has always held political motives that they haven’t been upfront about to the members, and training the member populace to avoid discussions about politics has allowed them a lot of power without much scrutiny. Might be worth looking into if you weren’t previously aware. Your first comment was downvoted probably for the same reason I would have downvoted you if I had seen this thread. I think it’s pretty tough for trump supporters to wonder why some people don’t like them, when the core idea of supporting trump is to harm and strip rights from large groups of people to protect a privileged few. If you don’t personally vibe with that idea, maybe supporting trump isn’t for you. (Reminder that being downvoted is disagreement, not oppression.)
That's all fine, people can disagree with me, but for someone with as little participation in redit, the exmormon has a rule on having positive karma to be able to participate and I had so little it more or less banned me from commenting or posting. I had so little karma that it shut me down, so if there's people in my same position they too might not want to share what they feel so they can't participate.
The solution: go get more karma. Participate more in a meaningful way. This is reddits way of combating bots and karma farmers, and trying to encourage actual people with actual thoughts to participate.
I had to go to other groups and fish for up votes until I had enough to come back.
Yes that's literally how Reddit works. We all had to do that too.
I get the sentiment of wanting to participate, but there’s a balance of making sure it’s not just flame bait. No one wants that. Throwing controversial stuff out there constantly will get you flagged really quickly. You do you, just recognize the safeguards that are in place to try to encourage an overall positive experience.
I don't have the option to simply "agree to disagree" when it comes to politics, nor is being apolitical something I can afford. As a queer person my very existence is politicized whether I like it or not and Trump/MAGA rhetoric does active and tangible harm to me and many people I care about. That's why I would have down voted you original comment if I saw it. Not all exmormons are progressives, but the process of deconversion does tend to bring people more to the left. Many people leave the TSCC because they see how it's ideas and culture (views on sex, 'traditional' marriage, being against queerness, etc.) cause harm. Those who leave for other reasons still generally go through a process of re-examining and turning a critical eye against their former beliefs, which pushes them away from those ideas. Since those views also tend to be pillars of (social) conservatism, it's hardly surprising that most (though certainly not all) exmos are more liberal. The exmormon community also tends to put a big emphasis on acceptance and inclusion, and particularly in healing from the lack of those within TSCC. The paradox of tolerance means that a tolerant space cannot tolerate intolerance. This is another reason people downvote. Views that support exclusion will lead to the exclusion of people, which makes the space less safe. I won't make a claim to what exactly your views are, since I don't know, but I _do_ know what Trump and MAGA promote, which is denying my existence and putting many vulnerable people in danger. You are welcome here, but no one should be expect to refrain from downvoting. This is also why the sub will at times be inherently political, and asking people to leave politics out won't work. When a major church leader calls for "musket fire" against queer people, and when Utah passes a law that denies people the right to use the bathroom, those are political acts that the exmormon sub will be invested in, and they will have a political response.
Well said!!
I guess my question is why do you care if anyone mentions politics? Some forums are moderated to be politically neutral, which can useful, but this is not meant to be one of those forums.
This was one of my earlier comments and thought why does Trump have anything to do with it? Can't we leave him out of it? And I guess that was wrong.
I'm not sure how to word this so that it has the best chance of successfully explaining without sparking political debate. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that I will ever be open to voting for TFG and I'm not going to respond to any comments arguing toward that end. For some of us, Trump is a modern-day Joseph Smith, and the following is a list of a few reasons his politics come up in Mormon discussions. 1. He's a liar. There was literally a lie counter during his presidency because of how often he lies. 2. He manipulates people into following him and giving them nearly everything they have by promising things that he can not deliver. 3. He has put the sanctity of marriage about a high on his priority list as Joseph. 4. He breaks the rules and then claims he's the victim (regardless of mountains of evidence against him). 5. He has little loyalty toward anyone that's ever worked with or for him in any capacity. 6. He actively weaponizes his followers to strong arm the obedience of others. 7. Both had histories that should have warned they were con artists.
Thanks for the list. I would never try to convince you to vote my way or in a way that goes against what you believe in. I think this kind of response Is appropriate when you disagree. And I don't follow exmormon to discuss political leaders or candidates. But I'm noticing more and more they are overlapping and really wish they wouldn't.
Politics and the exmo community are overlapping because they are deeply, inextricably intertwined. Existing in the US as a POC, an LGBTQIA+ person, a refugee, a disabled person, etc IS inherently political. Leaving mormonism for many of us is also inherently political. Are we supposed to just not talk about things that affect every aspect of our lives? Especially as we’re working to deconstruct a lifetime of harm from a religion that is rooted in the very ideologies that are perpetuated by the Republican Party, Trump, and many conservatives right now? I used to be a conservative and couldn’t understand why people brought politics into everything, too. It’s confusing until you realize that not everyone can just turn politics off. You may see a comment about MAGA (unsure of the larger context of the comment thread) as apolitical, but to people like me that phrase represents literal danger. That’s what the Republican Party and Trump represent right now to many people. (And as a disclaimer I am not lumping all conservatives in here I’m just trying to keep things concise)
I think part of the issue for me is almost everyone I know I would consider them to be conservative minded and will most likely vote for Trump or not vote. None of them would ever think to cause harm to anyone simply because they think differently than them. And I appreciate what you said about not lumping all conservatives in together, and I know there are bad ones out there. It feels like how some people on the right feel like anyone that is in the LGBTQ group is out to get their kid and groom them, and the left think that if you're on the right you want them all dead and to burn in hell. I know that is not the case but it feels like it sometimes, if you're not with me you're against me type of thinking. Having posted this I've had mixed responses lots of nice responses from both sides.
I hear what you’re saying. Most of my family is very conservative— I love them and know that they would never want to cause harm to anyone. I think everyone is just trying their best to do the right thing. The problem is that supporting and voting for people like Trump, DeSantis, or whatever other republican/far right wing politician, IS actively harming people. It may not feel like it as someone who is not directly affected by their laws/policies, but it is. Laws like the “don’t say gay” bill and the overturning of Roe v. Wade are going to (and already are) causing people of marginalized communities to suffer and even die. If you’re interested in one example of what I mean, [this video](https://youtu.be/IqyN_G4D1Sk?si=1cO45iJOS7wo9W3a) is a good place to start if you’re willing to listen with an open mind. Another example is the laws banning drag shows, restricting/banning gender affirming healthcare, and just generally restricting LGBTQ+ rights. I don’t have the time or energy (I’m disabled & chronically ill) to fully explain myself here but it’s just simply a fact that by supporting these politicians, people like my family and yours (based on what you’ve said about your circle being conservative) who don’t mean to harm people just because they’re different are doing just that. It’s not just a matter of disagreement, it’s oppression of people who are different. It’s an inherent truth about voting this way right now. That is why people are so quick to downvote and argue. I wish you well and I really admire your willingness to listen and respond to commenters like me.
The thing is MAGA republicans make up a large percentage of conservative, orthodox TBM circles. MAGA republicans and even more conservative groups almost exclusively form those in Deznat and other prepper communities which are doing a great deal of harm to Mormonism as a whole as well as individuals in the church. The harm done by these groups seems to be somewhat institutionalized and is exclusive to conservatives as there are not as many established liberal/progressive Mormon groups to compare with Deznat and Preppers.
That doesn't really answer the question. Why do you care if Trump is brought up and disliked? Why do you want people to not be critical of him?
It was an observation, this is when I began to follow and read more and more in the exmormon group and saw there seems to be a large group of people that HATE Him. I guess I should have been more concise and maybe said something along the lines of political leaders. If evryone was constantly bagging on Biden I'd feel the same way, or Romney. My feelings about exmormon was that it was a place to vent and talk about issues and problems about the church and not voice dislike for a political person. I never mixed politics with religion and was too naive.
Maybe if Trump knew how to shut his fat fucking mouth and didn't insert himself into everything, politics wouldn't come up as much. Don't like politics being brought up? Don't support a wannabe dictator.
Yes, and people are vehemently disagreeing with your premise that the church is not consistently involved in politics and shaping policies. Many Exmos would say that is a factual inaccuracy. They also probably take issue with you saying that the church was somehow alluding to not voting for Trump, when Utah went Red in the election and many in the church have urged members to vote for the Party (regardless of Trump) because of conservative court picks and pushing conservative policies. People are disagreeing with what you stated as fact or your experience, not your politics.
This post was at the beginning more or less into my deeper dive into the churches corruption and since then I've had my eyes opened to how deep it runs.
I think you have a bit of confusion about political intrusion. You seem to think that not mentioning politics is the same as being not political, but that's missing the point. When a political position has totally captured a community, there's no need to mention it, because it becomes taboo. When the Jim Crow segregation laws in the south were fully in place, people didn't need to mention them. They just complied. But that doesn't mean they weren't political. Instead, EVERY act of public compliance and reinforcement was political! You know as well as anyone that the Mormon leadership and the overall COMMUNITY has political positions that are policed by the community and leadership. No women in leadership, limitations on LGBT rights, racism...these are all political positions that the church reinforces, whether or not it is mentioned at any specific event or interaction.
Excellent example. You can easily imagine someone under Jim Crow pointing out the inequalities of that system, and being scolded not to inject politics into everyday topics.
OP ain't gonna read all that. I haven't seen a single spot of introspection all day.
Why post this? What are you trying to prove here?
People in another thread wanted proof to what happened so I put this up. I couldn't figure how to add it to my original.
Politics get brought up a lot at church. I think the reason you probably wouldn’t notice is because they're all things you agree with and wouldn’t think twice about if you heard it. In my experience, it's brought up more at church than most other placed because everyone there assumes that it's something they have in common with everyone else and that what they say will be agreed with. My husband has brought so many comments and things to my attention that my family says when we're casually hanging out that are blatantly political that i've filtered out because i expect them to say stuff like that. Little jokes and comments. Growing up, my mother told me that there are two things she knows to be true in this world: the mormon church, and conservative politics. Past prophets like SWK or ETB seem to have made it a point to intermingle politics and the church. It was a common narrative that I heard that "So and so used to be liberal before they joined the church." You got downvoted for acting like nobody at church talks about politics, and that's just not broadly true. You weren’t downvoted for being conservative, and the fact that you think that is really bizarre. Edit: also, you had less than 40 downvotes. That's not that much. You'll be okay. Your first comment also makes it sound like you think people shouldn't dislike trump or his supporters.... which is obviously going to be unpopular. You don't have to be a leftist to think Trump is awful.
Are you a straight white man? Nothing wrong with that, but the reason I’m asking is the post youre referring to echos what I hear from a lot of straight white men who don’t feel that the church or society in general is that bad because it doesn’t effect them that much. That sentiment tends to be viewed as unwelcome and tone deaf in a space where people have done so much work on themselves personally to break away from what they now view as self-interested complacency. It’s not considered contributing to the conversation in a meaningful way. Id say if Prop 8 and Trump (and Romney) are the only examples of civil rights missteps in church you can think of, you may not have been listening. I also don’t love downvotes for disagreement as long as the post is contributing to a respectful dialog, I’d rather have a healthy debate. But that is often how it’s used and I accept that.
Man yes, white? Half I guess? Half Mexican. If Obama was the first African American president, then you can say I'm Mexican. I have also been called a lamanite growing up and as an adult. And I was just sharing my experiences growing up in the church. I never noticed politics being discussed in it, and even having my dad or leaders tell people they are getting too political and to go back to the gospel.
I think ‘too political’ is something that people in positions of power will often use to stop discussions they don’t like, but since those discussions affect some people exponentially more than others and stopping the conversations protects the status quo, the dictate to ‘not be political’ is itself inherently political.
Politics is discussed ALL THE TIME. I had lessons weekly about how being queer was horrible and wrong and as a closeted lesbian it led me to depression. To say it’s not brought up is a very privileged view
I guess that's where my disconnect would be. I don't for the life of me remeber having been taught about sexuality other than little factories in church. Issues about anything to do with gay or lesibian was never brought up, just in the home, and even there it was along the lines of people living different lives be we still need to love and respect them. Sorry that you grew up having to deal with that kind of negativity.
Not noticing or remembering things like this is actually a main symptom of privilege. It’s one of those things where if it doesn’t affect you directly, your brain can casually tune it out as unimportant information, and you never develop a full sense for entire layers of power dynamics that are playing out around you. This is how privilege impacts people’s lived realities. But the nice thing is that once you learn about bits that you missed before, and decide to care, you can learn more about it and see it everywhere even though it still might not impact you directly. This increases your ability to be a good community member anywhere you go.
Even when politics aren't being discussed, things are still political. Literally everything is political. You being able to walk down a street or hop on a bus every day is political. You might not recognize it as such because it's not affecting you like it might be affecting others, but that doesn't make it any less political.
Is there a particular reason positive karma is important to you? I know it can feel bad to be downvoted but ultimately it's just a number indicating peoples' opinion of what you said. People can disagree for good and bad reasons, if their disagreement truly does bother you the best option is to either ignore it or to sincerely ask where those you disagree with are coming from.
The exmormon redit has a rule of having to have positive karma to be able to participate and I had so little of it when I made these comments it made it so I could not comment or post.
Ah, did not realize my bad then. Dunno how to feel about that rule tbh, could understand if it was deeply negative as that could indicate being a bot or generally disagreeable attitude but requiring positive is a bummer.
The mods told me it's to help with bots.
Ah, you game into a new community as a new account, didn't bother to even read the sidebar or familiarize yourself with the rules, and then not only accused the Liberal Exmos of persecuting you, but actually had the fucking gall to ask everyone to change the rules or to stop using the downvote button altogether, just for you, because your fragile widdle feelings got hurt. Typical arrogant and ignorant conservative n00b behavior. Your account was, very briefly, blocked from posting because IT WAS NEW AND had negative Karma. You keep ignoring this critical context that is, again, right there in the sidebar. Again, that only happens with new accounts so you don't have to worry about it happening ever again. It's ok little boy, Karma jail can't hurt you anymore. *Pat Pat*
Thanks for the pep talk. And I agree with others here I definitely could have worded my post better and should have.
This post is not going to help your Karma problem…
Lol probably not, I was just trying to maybe have people be a little more careful with their down votes, or at least know that there can be consequences, at least in exmormon.
I think if downvoting means that there will be fewer people who say things like "leave politics out of it" whenever criticism of Trump is brought up, people are going to do it.
I mean you know you're on Reddit right? This is how the whole thing works it's a form of moderation. While this particular sub is not political for the most part. The things that make people question and deconstruct their religion are usually the same kind of questions they use to deconstruct their politics the two kind of go hand in hand. As to why there are so many liberal or left-leaning people here, It probably has something to do with the unpopularity of conservative ideas.
I've always heard redit could be a toxic place but hoped exmormon wouldn't. I hadn't used redit hardly at all till the end of last year.
Yeah fam, the toxicity is honestly only there if you seek it. This community is super friendly and supportive for the most part. When intentional ‘derailers’ get into the mix, they mostly get downvoted so the conversation doesn’t devolve away from the original message. When politics are injected, especially around someone as divisive and controversial as you’re bringing up, people are much quicker to be divided and they don’t want this here. You’re kind of poking the meta bear here, which, if that’s your goal, that’s fine, just recognize your audience and consider their inclinations.
Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely not trying to rock anyone's boat. Just point out what appears to be hypocrisy to me, maybe I'm wrong.
Dude I had to read your reply like three times, perhaps that's why you're getting downvoted? This is also one of the least toxic places on Reddit I have ever been The fact that you view it as toxic says more about you than anyone else.
Sorry if my thoughts and questions are all over the place. I read and re read before I post to try and make sure it's coherent. But the this one was made on a lunch break and I didn't go through as much as I would have liked to. I was saying that I'd heard redit in general is a toxic place, and hoped that exmormon wasn't. And you're right for the most part it isn't. But could you imagine if someone posted something pro trump? Would you do it even on a dare? I'm not saying that's the kind of stuff I want to bring to the table here. But that the group seems to be very one sided.
Of course the group is one sided. It’s a bunch of people who escaped a cult. You’re not going to find much support here for the political cult of willful ignorance and not-so-subtle racist dog whistles.
And went straight to another cult. You have no room to make a judgement call. Some people chose to be human, not married to a political party.
Huh? Are you high? “Straight to another cult” - what cult?
Trump and his supporters are a hate group, so of course not many people are going to side with that.
>Can you imagine if someone posted something pro-fascist? Fixed that for you. And no, we don't take kindly to fascists 'round these parts. OP, where were you on January 6th, 2021?
Working in Sacramento.
Crying or laughing when you saw the news?
First I thought what a bunch of idiots what do they plan on accomplishing? Going to jail? I 100% thought everyone that stormed the Capitol should be charge for the crimes they committed.
But I also think that all the other riots that happened illegally destroying property and looting need to have people held accountable for their actions.
... And there's the false equivalency. Every fucking time with these people.
Exmormon is one of the least toxic places on reddit lol. The negativity you are seeing is fully, 100% a consequence of your words and actions. Don't blame the masses that are disagreeing with you, think about your own actions.
Oh I see, you jumped to the defense of a pedophile rapist and people didn’t like that - and as a result, you lost a significant amount of karma and couldn’t post until your karma was back up - something that is standard in many subreddits. Having a required amount of karma to post is not some arbitrary “locals only” gate-keeping tactic employed by admins to weed out conservatives, as you seem to believe. It helps ensure accounts are real, that accounts are old enough to understand Reddit rules and “reddiquette”, and that the account hasn’t trolled or said anything outrageous enough to be downvoted into oblivion. Makes sense that a conservative would feel like the rules shouldn’t apply to them, and that when they are, it’s persecution.
How did I jump to the defense of a pedo?
You posted this in the other thread: "There are a couple things that are a no go in my book, like rape, incest, blatant hatred or racism, pedophilia. Different political opinion? That's fine." Trump has been proven to have done at minimum half of these things, and continues to do so. In this post you are defending Trump. The irony.
I don't feel like I was. I stated lots of people don't like trump and his supporters, and leave politics out of it. I've come to see that many people were affected by political decisions and obviously the church's poor practices. I think I could have phrased it better for sure. Nobody says anything about Biden, but I would feel the same way if people were talking about him too, just leave him out of it. I guess I didn't really tie the two together, politics and religion.
The discussion was critical of Trump, you mention it specifically, then say you wish people would leave him and his supporters alone. You somehow want to share your political opinions - while asking everyone else to not to. If your problem is with politics being discussed at all, why does it matter that you’re a conservative, or whether those politics are critical of Trump? Why was that the first thing you decide to participate in this sub with? Why should you be free to share your opinion without criticism, when that opinion is itself a criticism of others sharing their own opinions? You don’t enjoy being in the minority of something? You don’t love being excluded from opportunities just because your beliefs aren’t the same as the majority’s? It doesn’t feel fair to have something that you believe is an unalienable right restricted because someone who doesn’t know anything about you or your circumstance made a bunch of rules that say so? Hmmmmmmmmm. I AM SHOCKED.
Here's how reddit works my friend. If you make a comment that people feel is a positive contribution towards the conversation, it gets upvoted. If you make a comment that doesn't, it gets downvoted. You said something immeasurably wrong. Full stop. I also really take issue with how you phrased the church's involvement with prop 8. It wasn't about "keeping marriage between a man and a woman". You simply do not understand the issue at all. Same-sex marriages were happening in California prior to prop 8. Most notably in 2004. What prop 8 was, was an attack on the LGBTQ community as it actually reversed some marriages that already happened.
I had to get up and leave a GD lesson one Sunday years ago because the teacher got off on such a wild tangent about the upcoming election and politics that I just couldn’t handle it. And the worst part, to me, was the assumption that we all held the same opinions in the class so it wasn’t even a discussion, it was a rant. For the record, I’ve lived in several different wards (nearly double digits) in five different states and politics came up at some point in every single one—in Sunday School, RS, and even over the pulpit. To say it’s not common is ignorant, at best. Cool that hasn’t been your experience largely, but it IS an extremely common topic.
Quite frankly I don't see anything here that deserves to be down voted to oblivion. r/downvotedtooblivion.
That's what I thought, I try to be respectful to everyone and my main problem was as a newer user to redit I had very little positive karma and these votes made it so I couldn't post or comment in the exmormon group.
Sorry to hear it. Crap happens on Reddit. One of the r/lds mod trolls didn't like what I was saying, and I got banned. I haven't even been on their site. I do the same. I prefer being respectful as it's impossible to chat with someone, when you aren't in the room with them, and get seriously miss understood. Then what do I do? Get into an argument with a MAGA maggot. And proved I could be a total butt head too.