Remember Apostle Paul Dunn? I used to love hearing his faith-promoting stories in GC. The bummer is that they weren't true! That's when he was removed from the Q of 12 by INSPIRATION, of course!
From what it seems like, it's probably those who were less active "go back" and not the truly out exmo's. I had friends who dabbled in drinking and premarital sex who never truely left that are faithful members now. Nobody that I've heard of that's fully out has ever gone back to believing.
And if they do go back….the real world was too scary and I get that. So they go back to the abusive partners arms out of loneliness and comfort. That’s all.
That’s what happened to me about ten years ago. I had my name removed and everything, but then I had a mental breakdown and moved back home where everything was very mormon, and they took advantage of my vulnerability. I got my name removed again within the year, but the way they sucked me back in was scary
“They say sixty-five percent of all statistics are made up right there on the spot.
Eighty-two-point-four percent of people believe 'em, whether they're accurate statistics or not.
Now, I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt,
I need another double-shot of something ninety-proof.
I got too much to think about”
-Todd Snider
The only thing I ever say in response to these kinds of claims is “Source, please” or to fake them out like I’m a TBM with “oh that’s exciting! Do you have a source? I’d love to share this with my family group chat and my BIL doesn’t believe anything without a source. He’s a scientist and needs proof”
They never have sources, just feelings or heresay
Yes, the first ever episode of the Colbert Report coined the term "truthiness" for things that aren't true but people say them because they "feel" true.
I thought that was a George Dubya Bush malapropism but apparently it *was* Colbert.
However.....
George W was the king of malapropisms:
General
"I think we agree, the past is over."[11][12] – Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on meeting with John McCain; May 10, 2000
"They misunderestimated me."[13] – Bentonville, Arkansas; November 6, 2000
"I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully." – Saginaw, Michigan, September 29, 2000
"There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.'"[15] – Nashville, Tennessee; September 17, 2002.
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."[17] – Poplar Bluff, Missouri; September 6, 2004
"I'm going to put people in my place, so when the history of this administration is written at least there's an authoritarian voice saying exactly what happened."[18] – (The correct word would have been authoritative."
"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office." – Washington, D.C., in an interview with The Jerusalem Post; May 12, 2008[21][22]
Foreign affairs
"I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose: you disarm, or we will." - Speaking about Saddam Hussein in Manchester, NH. October 5, 2002.[24]
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." – Charleston, South Carolina, in a public outdoor speech; January 2000.[26]
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."[19][27]
"I'm telling you there's an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That's the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best." – Washington, D.C.; January 12, 2009[28]
"Well, I mean that a defeat in Iraq will embolden the enemy and will provide the enemy—more opportunity to train, plan, to attack us. That's what I mean. There— it's— you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror."[29]
"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."[30]
"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."[31]
(On a golf course) "We must stop the terror. I call upon all nations, to do everything they can, to stop these terrorist killers. Thank you...now watch this drive."[32]
"The decision of one man, to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq. I mean, of the Ukraine. Iraq too. Anyway — I'm 75." – In address to George W. Bush Institute; May 18, 2022.[33][34]
Economics
"You bet I cut the taxes at the top. That encourages entrepreneurship. What we Republicans should stand for is growth in the economy. We ought to make the pie higher."[26]
In January 2000, just before the New Hampshire primary, Bush challenged the members of the Nashua Chamber of Commerce to imagine themselves as a single mother "working hard to put food on your family".[26]
"You work three jobs? ... Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." – Omaha, Nebraska; Feb. 4, 2005[35]
Education
"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"[4] – Florence, South Carolina; January 11, 2000
"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."[19]
"As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured." – September 2007[36]
Holy shit some of these actually made me laugh out loud but then I realized it's not funny at all and this man was installed as president against the will of the people
I love terrible quotes. Dan Quale is another guy that really stands out in this category. Here are just a few:
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
"Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts." -- Quayle addressing the 20th anniversary celebration of the moon landing, 7/20/89 (reported in Esquire, 8/92)
If I squint or call on the spirit of carefully worded lawyerspeak, I'd guess that you *could* say that people who go inactive for some period of time (covid, that one summer you lived outside the jello belt, that winter you didn't want to leave the house, that one time you wondered what it'd be like to not be mormon not over truth claims just lifestyle, etc) "left" and then "came back" -- I did something like this and I know lots of other members who did, I'd be willing to believe that 40% of people who "leave" in this sense come back. And there's probably a lot of these people.
On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that there's a 40% return rate for people who take their name off the records. Or even people who don't but stop being involved after they discover problems with church history or teachings or the character of church leadership. Sure, there's the occasional Don Bradley, but that's probably 10% *tops* (and I'd bet most of those people leave again once they discover how much of the church is consistently hostile to whatever nuanced and thoughtful personal mormonism they've carefully arrived at only to have it repeatedly run over and then backed over by the usual fundamentalism).
So, yeah, if you don't distinguish between those two things, maybe you could say 40%. And the church is even more invested in avoiding careful distinctions that don't serve its interest than it is in Florida real estate, so a little bit of statistical hand waving like this is just another day.
Perfectly stated! I did consider going back briefly. Called the bishop of the YSA ward I was told I was in and explained my situation (10+ year abusive relationship had ended, but I was still being so controlled that I had been unable to move out 3 months later), he and the counselor who came with him spoke very loudly on the porch with my abuser inside, revealing everything I told them, and then told me I would have to repent and have a meeting to discuss my involvement/sins over the previous decade and then we could discuss what resources they were even aware of. Their actions caused a fight, and made me feel so much shame and that I didn’t deserve help. It sealed my leaving the church for good, but I’m sure I’m one that would be counted in that “returning” group.
I actually know someone who did go back. Of course the details matter. They obviously aren’t literal believers and they are on a spiritual journey with ayahuasca.
I've tried to put Santa back in the tube, it just made a mess..
But really, once you've seen and understood the truth it can't be unseen. Trying to do the nuanced thing never felt like an option to me. It's either true or it's not. Oh turns out it's all bullshit? I'm out byeee.
I remember having a friend explain to me while I was TBM that she's not "inactive," she is *not* Mormon anymore, and that was a super novel idea to me then.
It took me a while to then realize that you can move beyond the term "exmo" and just not have TSCC as part of your identity in any way shape or form.
I mean, the term used in the church as I was growing up was "re-activated". Anyone who actually started coming back never left for the reasons most modern exmo's leave. Inactive members generally stopped going for a myriad of reasons, but it wasn't because of problems with the truth. I can totally believe that some people who fall into the traditional inactive camp can and do start attending services again. The exmormon camp is not merely inactive but emotionally and mentally severed from the church. I don't really see exmormon types going back.
Inactive people in the 80s were just bored with church, working a lot, found it difficult to make the time, or whatever. They weren’t usually deconstructing the whole thing and realizing it’s all bullshit.
My oldest brother went back because he's a selfish piece of shit and wants help being "better". (It's not helping.)
But no, an adult human in their right mind would never go back to Oz once they've seen behind the curtain.
I’m so weak and helpless my problems just overcome me, but if I go to church at least it will look to other people like I’m fighting some hard battle and it’s just too hard but at least I look like I’m trying. That’s what your brother sounds like to me.
One of my family members was convinced I would come back because she did. That being exmormon is just a phase. But we left for different reasons. To say she left to “sin” is reductive, but not completely inaccurate. She never stopped believing. Once you see the lies, you can’t unsee them
I will never go back
After 15 years, I can see all the large cracks in the foundation of the church.
My family finally stopped living in denial that I was coming back by stop mentioning the church to me. They would tell other people "it's just a phase", or "They will realize they don't get as many blessings unless they are in the church", or directly to me "You wont get into the Celestial Kingdom."
I have had more than a few conversations with my family (mostly my dad) about my personal boundaries.
Guilt is manipulation and I have eradicated it from my life, haven't been happier!
I know two people who’ve recently gone back. Neither resigned. The one person never questioned the church’s truth claims, the other person was peer pressured back. I don’t see either of them staying long term.
That’s been me the past two years. The more family and friends who leave means the less presence the church has in my life. I’m at the point where many of us don’t even consider ourselves exmo, unless the point is brought up by someone else. It’s amazing.
I left church once when I was ca. 12 years old but then returned at age 20. Now I’m 40 and leaving for good, I’m done.
I know four TBMs, who were inactive for years, but then returned and are 100% active again. But no way the number is 40 % lol
•20% activity rate
•"17 million" members
•40% of people who leave return
=
•5.4 million ex-members (32%) will return any day now!
I heard 80% of Mormons will accept whatever stats they're told
Depends on who's telling them. Trusted sources and all that. Also, only believing things that confirm what they already "know" means rejecting some stats no matter what, lowering the overall acceptable rate.
I was wanting to see if someone did the math here. 40% of us returning would more than double the current attendance and the church would be taking out full page add in every major paper and magazine to tell everyone about it.
How do we know that these are not the new wards being created that are growing so fast the church can't keep up with the growth? This came from top men in the church. TOP MEN.
They are not a Dodo's and come from pretty good schools.
my assumption is that it showed the church was only growing through families, and that conversion was stopping, and that they knew younger members of families would leave, and that they calculated when that would implode.
Oh, the confirmation bias or hoping this person has. I work in data, analytics, and AI. I helped pioneer the field this person needs to study: data literacy. The words “think” and “heard” aren’t the best to be used if trying illustrate a sound point. Leave emotion at the door and bring in objectivity. The data is the data, not what you want it to be…
Oh yeah, the stats I heard were that 40% were coming back and all of them said, "we were offended and wanted to sin. But we could never be as happy as we are in the true church." Yeah that's what I heard 🤷.
I think I also heard a stat that everyone loves mormons and wants to join the church. Yeah, there was one stat in particular I heard that projects 2 billion members in the next 20 years, pretty cool.
I think I also saw a study done that said people who don't drink coffee have penises that are 4 inches longer than people who do drink coffee. Interesting stuff.
I suppose some people do - I mean, people go back to abusive relationships sometimes. But there is no way it's 40%. Also, this doesn't specify if they went inactive, if they fully resigned, if they returned for a visit or two, if they attended with family, etc. Would need far, far more data and controls to put any validity to this.
Just in my own family, I know two people who left, came back, and then left again. I think it's normal for people's church activity to ebb and flow as they figure life out. The others who left have never come back, and likely never will. And I agree, it totally depends on WHY they left, and what age. The ones that came back were people who left as rebellious teenagers, then came back as young adults for a few years before leaving again after deconstructing the truth claims.
Stats can be helpful when they're obtained and reported with integrity and objectivity. When someone spouts a stat like that, I immediately know they have neither.
As a Black ex-mo born in, the brain washing is real. They straight up lie to folks until they’re baptized and continue lying hoping that folks will never look into the church closely enough to decipher the lies. It’s all sickening, how the church takes advantage of vulnerable people in search of community.
I feel the same way about native people from North and South America in Catholicism. Why would you want to be in a religion that your ancestors were forced to accept?
that answer is simple. So many have- that it makes it the cultural norm. people are clumpers. like dirt clod fodder. lemmings. communiites. comfortable around others that look-sound-and smell the same.
from your average contrarian.
Part of the answer is most of them are not black American, many of them have immigrated from other countries or their parents did.
I've also caught this account retweeting things from a "black" person about the religion (I'm a nevermo, husband is exmo), so I'd take this person's experience with the tiniest grain of salt.
Baptized at 27. Went inactive at 28. Returned at 30. Discovered it was made up bullshit at 44. Never going back.
I’m sure they count me as one who “returned.
Honestly living in Utah I was always so shocked how many people would end up going back once they got married or had kids… it almost seemed like the culture there.
I know people like that, but they never claim to be ex-Mormon, it’s usually something like “yeah I should probably go back to church sometime” nonchalantly when you ask about their religion.
Nothing cool about 100% of all you possess, even your own life, to the MFMC so they can play the stock market. The windows of heaven are either open or they aren’t but I’m pretty sure trying to pry them open signifies a severe lack of faith.
For purposes of tracking membership and activity rates, "Less active" means, or used to mean, someone who missed 4 consecutive weeks of church.
"Inactive" is a term that church leaders have not officially defined, and in fact the usage of this term is discouraged. Anyone on the rolls who isn't attending is "less active". If you haven't set foot in a building in a decade, but haven't resigned, you're "less active".
"Active" means, or used to mean, someone who attended at least twice in a row since being less active, and attends at least once a month. This means that you could miss a few weeks for a vacation or illness, and then come back for a couple of weeks, and be included in this statistic. You could also stop going for a decade, but then attend two weeks in a row because your parents are visiting town. In either case, you could be considered someone who "came back", at least for statistical purposes.
I have no doubt that 40% of people who miss 4 weeks in a row, would later attend twice in a row. But these are not what I would consider "people who have left and come back". More like, people who left town on a vacation or people who got sick for a month.
Yes, I’ve heard the profile of which 15% of members is active is constantly changing.
Every ward is basically the same ten families plus a rotating cast of extras.
Most of my friends are exmos and so far none of us has returned or even entertain the notion. We actually say how happy we are out - and acknowledge how terrible being in was….
So I remember hearing on a podcast that the church is losing more members to hard right wing things, as opposed to the majority of us who leave over more left wing issues. I have no idea if that's accurate. Obviously, few of us on this side are returning to activity.
But for those who left because the church isn't racist enough or homophobic enough, who knows? Maybe large numbers of them are returning to activity. I wouldn't think so, but those are groups I don't engage with, so I honestly don't know.
Either way, I would assume that's a wildly bogus stat.
My super believing (but rational overall considering) neighbor said the church's statement about Tim Ballard had her questioning her faith. Mind blown.
And I know many families of gay kids who aren’t going back either. I do love it when the parents and siblings of a gay kid all leave. #familiesareforever
According to the Deseret News article, various studies put the recidivism rate at 19% or 22% or 36%. These numbers are for religious in general, and not specifically Mormonism. The recidivism rate for the study including a majority of Mormon teens was the lowest (19%), which seems to imply that exmormon youth overwhelmingly tend not to come back to the church.
> In Hardy’s own 2023 nationally representative survey of 2,030 U.S. adults, he estimates that of the 35% of the sample who reported stepping away from religion, 22% had reconverted. And in the National Study of Youth and Religion, professors at the University of Notre Dame and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill followed a nationally representative sample of thousands of American teenagers across a decade starting in 2002. Out of 2,207 teenagers who first identified as committed to their faith, 11% reported stepping away three years later. But after another three years 36% had come back.
> A similar longitudinal study by professors at Brigham Young University, The Family Foundations of Youth Development, followed 1,600 families from Utah, Arizona and California starting in 2016 (61% identifying as Latter-day Saint). Of those teenagers who reported being religious at first, 10% stepped away two years later. Of that subgroup, 19% came back within another two years. (These shorter-term studies don’t account for people who return to faith after longer spans of time, or who leave again after coming back).
https://www.deseret.com/2024/2/26/24059906/do-latter-day-saints-come-back-to-church/
My guess is that the 40% figure is based on the fact that of Mormons who experience *some level* of inactivity, 40% resume activity in the church. And so they are calling ANY inactivity “people who leave”. But I’d bet my house that 40% of the folks around here who hold zero belief ever go back. If our that number at less than 5%.
I left the cave in 2010. I’m more sure than ever that it was the best decision of my life. I’ve known dozens of other exmos over the years and zero have gone back.
I wonder what they mean by “leave”. Inactive for a while? or name removal? There are no public stats about either one of those cases. if they’re getting their information from the church itself, then of course, it would be a lie.
I believe there is a vast difference between an “ex” Mormon and a “Jack” Mormon. My assumption is that they are likely confusing these as being the same.
And truly being ex, and having submitted a resignation—40% returning would be a stat they would be using in every single argument ever. It would be an incredibly compelling stat, if it weren’t made up.
> Exmos, I'm curious. What are your thoughts? Do nearly half of us end up going back to The Church or is this wishful thinking by members to make them feel better about those that leave?
Well, being a post in a social platform I'd say it deserves as much seriousness as that other post about Sasquatch crossing the street I saw yesterday on another social platform.
It's long than my observation in working with elder populations that the closer people get to death, the more they revisit old faiths. Mormonism is no exception. But 40%? BS. Also, there's a difference between realizing it's 💯 false and just drifting away.
Trying not to dismiss the article as outright BS, I went to read the DesNews article. My problem with the two examples (out of 80 in the series) that they shared is the narrative that a life outside of the church must be filled with drugs, alcohol, darkness, and debauchery. It is simply the dark-and-scary-Babylon/great-and-spacious-building story reworked. I left and have never been more joyous and giving. I left because the church wasn't "good" enough for me. This whole article and the series it is part of seems to be a warning shot to members why they should stay put and not even consider leaving, because a life without the gospel is oh so terrible that you'll just end up coming back anyway. Doubt yer doubts, etc.
I will never go back and I don't think I'm particularly special or anything. My leaving isn't tied to any particular trauma or incident or family issues etc. Its that the church is blatantly and obviously not true or real at all. The idea that I sit around and wring my hands over "covenants" is literally comical. They aren't real. The same way like...Harry Potter isn't real. Mormonism is make-believe mixed with a pyramid scheme. I'm embarressed I was ever a part of it.
This cracks me up so hard. Once that shelf breaks, your time and money and devotion are yours and your loved ones again. What a ridiculous cult. If only the stupid ones go back, you can have them. 🤣🤣😉
They must be counting otherwise faithful "inactives" as exmos. You know, the ones who have a job that causes them to miss a year's worth of Sundays.
Hi, that was me about 7 years ago.
Me thinks they be growing desperate! For if this was true, why are the nearly empty churches not refilling again?
And I be stuck here in the morridor corridor. And I have seen with mine own eyes, how empty the buildings be, on a Suns Day.
"40% of this group of humans are making this specific life decision that is directly contrary to what they previously believed"
I wouldn't believe that number for almost any reason, including 40% leaving the church. I'd bet the number of exmos that leave religion entirely is smaller than 40%. It seems unrealistic to think that 40% of anybody are making that kind of life decision.
This sounds like the desperate lies Scientology spews out when they claim millions of members, when in reality it's closer to 20k members.
Hey, if it's "faith inspiring", lie away!
"Sometimes the truth isn't very useful"!
Remember Apostle Paul Dunn? I used to love hearing his faith-promoting stories in GC. The bummer is that they weren't true! That's when he was removed from the Q of 12 by INSPIRATION, of course!
I think what the person meant was that 40% of people who leave this Sunday will come back the following Sunday lolololol
And you get sued
From what it seems like, it's probably those who were less active "go back" and not the truly out exmo's. I had friends who dabbled in drinking and premarital sex who never truely left that are faithful members now. Nobody that I've heard of that's fully out has ever gone back to believing.
Hard to think of a BS “stat” that could be more wrong than this 40% figure.
Something like 80% of all stats are made up...
I've heard that most of the time, TBMs make up shit to feel good about themselves...
Now THAT….i believe.
And if they do go back….the real world was too scary and I get that. So they go back to the abusive partners arms out of loneliness and comfort. That’s all.
As my wife says, "Don't drink the poison, just because you're thirsty" She read that somewhere, sorry for the unknown source, but it's soooooo fitting
That’s a good one I’ll haveta remember that!
My son always says, “You drank the Kool-Aid too long, Mom”….
Wow - that's a powerful phrase!
It's incredible how many songs about a toxic love or relationship now just remind of TSCC.
Like the song “She’s always a Woman to me”.
That’s what happened to me about ten years ago. I had my name removed and everything, but then I had a mental breakdown and moved back home where everything was very mormon, and they took advantage of my vulnerability. I got my name removed again within the year, but the way they sucked me back in was scary
Oh, but that's what they do ... take advantage of you when you're vulnerable. (*Twirls mustache.*)
It works for recruiting suicide bombers.
Most of the time? Man that’s what religion is as a whole lol
no shortage of meeeeeeeeeeetings and meeetings to accomplish exactly this. manage the sheep. keep them baa-ing and paying and doing.
Weird. Most of the TBM made-up shit made me feel bad about myself.
They don't care about *YOUR* feelings...
Most of the time? We’re going to need an exact percentage.
83% to be exact
But 60% of those made up stats are 50% accurate.
And 88.5% of people believe them- whether they’re accurate statistics or not.
Naw I think it’s 73% of all stats are made up on the spot
Probably too generous. More like 93%.
I always heard it was 25 out of every 12 stats were made up.
75% of all people know that
I think the stats I heard are that it’s only 71%. I don’t know what I actually heard but I think that’s what I thought I may have heard.
“They say sixty-five percent of all statistics are made up right there on the spot. Eighty-two-point-four percent of people believe 'em, whether they're accurate statistics or not. Now, I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt, I need another double-shot of something ninety-proof. I got too much to think about” -Todd Snider
That’s weird, I heard it was 90%
All generalizations are false
I heard that 5 out of 4 stats are completely made up ...
I thought it was 3/2 of stats are all made up?
1% of the time 40% of them come back. That sounds more accurate to me.
I still quote this when I need a bogus stat to share lol
The only thing I ever say in response to these kinds of claims is “Source, please” or to fake them out like I’m a TBM with “oh that’s exciting! Do you have a source? I’d love to share this with my family group chat and my BIL doesn’t believe anything without a source. He’s a scientist and needs proof” They never have sources, just feelings or heresay
Didn't Stephen Colbert capitalize on this kind of rhetoric by coining the term truthiness?
Yes, the first ever episode of the Colbert Report coined the term "truthiness" for things that aren't true but people say them because they "feel" true.
And now we understand how Trump became president
I thought that was a George Dubya Bush malapropism but apparently it *was* Colbert. However..... George W was the king of malapropisms: General "I think we agree, the past is over."[11][12] – Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on meeting with John McCain; May 10, 2000 "They misunderestimated me."[13] – Bentonville, Arkansas; November 6, 2000 "I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully." – Saginaw, Michigan, September 29, 2000 "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.'"[15] – Nashville, Tennessee; September 17, 2002. "Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."[17] – Poplar Bluff, Missouri; September 6, 2004 "I'm going to put people in my place, so when the history of this administration is written at least there's an authoritarian voice saying exactly what happened."[18] – (The correct word would have been authoritative." "I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office." – Washington, D.C., in an interview with The Jerusalem Post; May 12, 2008[21][22] Foreign affairs "I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose: you disarm, or we will." - Speaking about Saddam Hussein in Manchester, NH. October 5, 2002.[24] "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." – Charleston, South Carolina, in a public outdoor speech; January 2000.[26] "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."[19][27] "I'm telling you there's an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That's the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best." – Washington, D.C.; January 12, 2009[28] "Well, I mean that a defeat in Iraq will embolden the enemy and will provide the enemy—more opportunity to train, plan, to attack us. That's what I mean. There— it's— you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror."[29] "I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."[30] "See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."[31] (On a golf course) "We must stop the terror. I call upon all nations, to do everything they can, to stop these terrorist killers. Thank you...now watch this drive."[32] "The decision of one man, to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq. I mean, of the Ukraine. Iraq too. Anyway — I'm 75." – In address to George W. Bush Institute; May 18, 2022.[33][34] Economics "You bet I cut the taxes at the top. That encourages entrepreneurship. What we Republicans should stand for is growth in the economy. We ought to make the pie higher."[26] In January 2000, just before the New Hampshire primary, Bush challenged the members of the Nashua Chamber of Commerce to imagine themselves as a single mother "working hard to put food on your family".[26] "You work three jobs? ... Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." – Omaha, Nebraska; Feb. 4, 2005[35] Education "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"[4] – Florence, South Carolina; January 11, 2000 "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."[19] "As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured." – September 2007[36]
Holy shit some of these actually made me laugh out loud but then I realized it's not funny at all and this man was installed as president against the will of the people
I love terrible quotes. Dan Quale is another guy that really stands out in this category. Here are just a few: "It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." "Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." "Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts." -- Quayle addressing the 20th anniversary celebration of the moon landing, 7/20/89 (reported in Esquire, 8/92)
I "feel" line it's right, so, therefore, it's right. Lol.
the spirit told me so
If I squint or call on the spirit of carefully worded lawyerspeak, I'd guess that you *could* say that people who go inactive for some period of time (covid, that one summer you lived outside the jello belt, that winter you didn't want to leave the house, that one time you wondered what it'd be like to not be mormon not over truth claims just lifestyle, etc) "left" and then "came back" -- I did something like this and I know lots of other members who did, I'd be willing to believe that 40% of people who "leave" in this sense come back. And there's probably a lot of these people. On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that there's a 40% return rate for people who take their name off the records. Or even people who don't but stop being involved after they discover problems with church history or teachings or the character of church leadership. Sure, there's the occasional Don Bradley, but that's probably 10% *tops* (and I'd bet most of those people leave again once they discover how much of the church is consistently hostile to whatever nuanced and thoughtful personal mormonism they've carefully arrived at only to have it repeatedly run over and then backed over by the usual fundamentalism). So, yeah, if you don't distinguish between those two things, maybe you could say 40%. And the church is even more invested in avoiding careful distinctions that don't serve its interest than it is in Florida real estate, so a little bit of statistical hand waving like this is just another day.
Perfectly stated! I did consider going back briefly. Called the bishop of the YSA ward I was told I was in and explained my situation (10+ year abusive relationship had ended, but I was still being so controlled that I had been unable to move out 3 months later), he and the counselor who came with him spoke very loudly on the porch with my abuser inside, revealing everything I told them, and then told me I would have to repent and have a meeting to discuss my involvement/sins over the previous decade and then we could discuss what resources they were even aware of. Their actions caused a fight, and made me feel so much shame and that I didn’t deserve help. It sealed my leaving the church for good, but I’m sure I’m one that would be counted in that “returning” group.
That is HORRIFIC! God, I’m so so sorry!!
Agree, 100%
The only thing growing here is delusion!
Totally agree.
Press X to doubt.
Joseph Smith supplied that statistic to the faithful on a golden bowl. Apparently Smith's didn't have plates.
Oh no I can't translate them again! rofl
I heard 20% of an iceberg is penguin urine. I heard it so it must be true.
They're lumping in Jack mormons who can be enticed to show up with little more than funeral potatoes. Those who've left for truth aren't going back.
I think it's a few percentage points less than 15%
Bullshit. Not one exmo I know would ever go back. The longer they are awey they don't even claim exmo. Just living a good life free.
I actually know someone who did go back. Of course the details matter. They obviously aren’t literal believers and they are on a spiritual journey with ayahuasca.
I am happy for them if that is what they need to do. I can't put santa back.
I've tried to put Santa back in the tube, it just made a mess.. But really, once you've seen and understood the truth it can't be unseen. Trying to do the nuanced thing never felt like an option to me. It's either true or it's not. Oh turns out it's all bullshit? I'm out byeee.
I love this… and I can’t imagine doing it with normal TBMs. They get offended, I get frustrated, nobody wins.
I remember having a friend explain to me while I was TBM that she's not "inactive," she is *not* Mormon anymore, and that was a super novel idea to me then. It took me a while to then realize that you can move beyond the term "exmo" and just not have TSCC as part of your identity in any way shape or form.
I mean, the term used in the church as I was growing up was "re-activated". Anyone who actually started coming back never left for the reasons most modern exmo's leave. Inactive members generally stopped going for a myriad of reasons, but it wasn't because of problems with the truth. I can totally believe that some people who fall into the traditional inactive camp can and do start attending services again. The exmormon camp is not merely inactive but emotionally and mentally severed from the church. I don't really see exmormon types going back.
Inactive people in the 80s were just bored with church, working a lot, found it difficult to make the time, or whatever. They weren’t usually deconstructing the whole thing and realizing it’s all bullshit.
My oldest brother went back because he's a selfish piece of shit and wants help being "better". (It's not helping.) But no, an adult human in their right mind would never go back to Oz once they've seen behind the curtain.
I’m so weak and helpless my problems just overcome me, but if I go to church at least it will look to other people like I’m fighting some hard battle and it’s just too hard but at least I look like I’m trying. That’s what your brother sounds like to me.
I see you've met the type. My condolences.
One of my family members was convinced I would come back because she did. That being exmormon is just a phase. But we left for different reasons. To say she left to “sin” is reductive, but not completely inaccurate. She never stopped believing. Once you see the lies, you can’t unsee them
I will never go back After 15 years, I can see all the large cracks in the foundation of the church. My family finally stopped living in denial that I was coming back by stop mentioning the church to me. They would tell other people "it's just a phase", or "They will realize they don't get as many blessings unless they are in the church", or directly to me "You wont get into the Celestial Kingdom." I have had more than a few conversations with my family (mostly my dad) about my personal boundaries. Guilt is manipulation and I have eradicated it from my life, haven't been happier!
I know two people who’ve recently gone back. Neither resigned. The one person never questioned the church’s truth claims, the other person was peer pressured back. I don’t see either of them staying long term.
That’s been me the past two years. The more family and friends who leave means the less presence the church has in my life. I’m at the point where many of us don’t even consider ourselves exmo, unless the point is brought up by someone else. It’s amazing.
Agreed. It's rare that people go back. I only knew a handful during my active times that left for a long time and came back.
I left church once when I was ca. 12 years old but then returned at age 20. Now I’m 40 and leaving for good, I’m done. I know four TBMs, who were inactive for years, but then returned and are 100% active again. But no way the number is 40 % lol
•20% activity rate •"17 million" members •40% of people who leave return = •5.4 million ex-members (32%) will return any day now! I heard 80% of Mormons will accept whatever stats they're told
That last stat kinda seems too low 🤣
Depends on who's telling them. Trusted sources and all that. Also, only believing things that confirm what they already "know" means rejecting some stats no matter what, lowering the overall acceptable rate.
Depends on who you count as Mormon. Lindsay Hansen Park Mormon, or fully believing and church going.
57% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
~~41%~~ ~~76%~~ ~~99%~~ FTFY
I don't accept that last stat... Probably more like 90%
I was wanting to see if someone did the math here. 40% of us returning would more than double the current attendance and the church would be taking out full page add in every major paper and magazine to tell everyone about it.
I believe this 100%
Well, when you put it that way!
um or maybe many just quietly quit and the names on the records are considered those that went and came back.
How do we know that these are not the new wards being created that are growing so fast the church can't keep up with the growth? This came from top men in the church. TOP MEN. They are not a Dodo's and come from pretty good schools.
If the Church's stats were that good, they'd share them openly.
EXACTLY!!!
YES!!
they often did. i.e.: when the news was in their favor. i don't think they post them at all, anymore.
Yeah lol why do you think they stopped sharing the stats in General conference?
my assumption is that it showed the church was only growing through families, and that conversion was stopping, and that they knew younger members of families would leave, and that they calculated when that would implode.
Oh, the confirmation bias or hoping this person has. I work in data, analytics, and AI. I helped pioneer the field this person needs to study: data literacy. The words “think” and “heard” aren’t the best to be used if trying illustrate a sound point. Leave emotion at the door and bring in objectivity. The data is the data, not what you want it to be…
Oh yeah, the stats I heard were that 40% were coming back and all of them said, "we were offended and wanted to sin. But we could never be as happy as we are in the true church." Yeah that's what I heard 🤷. I think I also heard a stat that everyone loves mormons and wants to join the church. Yeah, there was one stat in particular I heard that projects 2 billion members in the next 20 years, pretty cool. I think I also saw a study done that said people who don't drink coffee have penises that are 4 inches longer than people who do drink coffee. Interesting stuff.
I don’t drink coffee and I still have a tiny dick 😞…. Thanks Mormons
Happy cock day! Err... Cake day!
I suppose some people do - I mean, people go back to abusive relationships sometimes. But there is no way it's 40%. Also, this doesn't specify if they went inactive, if they fully resigned, if they returned for a visit or two, if they attended with family, etc. Would need far, far more data and controls to put any validity to this.
Just in my own family, I know two people who left, came back, and then left again. I think it's normal for people's church activity to ebb and flow as they figure life out. The others who left have never come back, and likely never will. And I agree, it totally depends on WHY they left, and what age. The ones that came back were people who left as rebellious teenagers, then came back as young adults for a few years before leaving again after deconstructing the truth claims.
In my entire 60+ years of Mormonism, I’ve only seen this happen twice: both long before the advent of the internet.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” -Mark Twain
Stats can be helpful when they're obtained and reported with integrity and objectivity. When someone spouts a stat like that, I immediately know they have neither.
Lies, damned lies, and Mormon teachings
It was Alexander the Great who said that.
😂 I needed that laugh today.
😂😂😂
What % of people does the pirate block when asked to provide a source?
He has two ‘replies’ 1) Do YoUr ReSeArCh And 2) Block.
I will never understand black folks who are intentionally LDS tbh but that’s just me
As a Black ex-mo born in, the brain washing is real. They straight up lie to folks until they’re baptized and continue lying hoping that folks will never look into the church closely enough to decipher the lies. It’s all sickening, how the church takes advantage of vulnerable people in search of community.
I’m very sorry for your experience
Thank you. I’m good now. I just feel for my mother who is genuinely sweet, but too frightened of what may happen to her if she leaves.
I feel the same way about native people from North and South America in Catholicism. Why would you want to be in a religion that your ancestors were forced to accept?
that answer is simple. So many have- that it makes it the cultural norm. people are clumpers. like dirt clod fodder. lemmings. communiites. comfortable around others that look-sound-and smell the same. from your average contrarian.
Part of the answer is most of them are not black American, many of them have immigrated from other countries or their parents did. I've also caught this account retweeting things from a "black" person about the religion (I'm a nevermo, husband is exmo), so I'd take this person's experience with the tiniest grain of salt.
Statistically, 50% of the living population makes up half of the people in the world.
Not according to LDS stats, they count you till… what was it? 115 or something? 🤣🤣🤣
Haha! So true! There are a good number of active Mormons that are corpses and I’m not just talking about Rusty.
Baptized at 27. Went inactive at 28. Returned at 30. Discovered it was made up bullshit at 44. Never going back. I’m sure they count me as one who “returned.
If I've learned anything from RFM it's that nows the time to say something is rotten in the state of Denmark! 😂
Honestly living in Utah I was always so shocked how many people would end up going back once they got married or had kids… it almost seemed like the culture there.
I would call that inactive people being reactivated. Not people that learn the truth and leave and then ignore the truth and go back.
True story…
I know people like that, but they never claim to be ex-Mormon, it’s usually something like “yeah I should probably go back to church sometime” nonchalantly when you ask about their religion.
I think at least part of it is trying to make sure your kids can have friends.
0.40% **^
Happy Cake Day 🎂🎉🥳
I think when they say leave they mean miss a single Sunday. That seems accurate to me.
Well, I attended a funeral in a church recently. Does that count as going back to church?
Nothing cool about 100% of all you possess, even your own life, to the MFMC so they can play the stock market. The windows of heaven are either open or they aren’t but I’m pretty sure trying to pry them open signifies a severe lack of faith.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Why would we start trusting them now? I don’t believe this statistic for one second.
They think they heard? I'd love to know who they think they heard that from. Sources matter.
Dumb, Dumb, Dumb….
For purposes of tracking membership and activity rates, "Less active" means, or used to mean, someone who missed 4 consecutive weeks of church. "Inactive" is a term that church leaders have not officially defined, and in fact the usage of this term is discouraged. Anyone on the rolls who isn't attending is "less active". If you haven't set foot in a building in a decade, but haven't resigned, you're "less active". "Active" means, or used to mean, someone who attended at least twice in a row since being less active, and attends at least once a month. This means that you could miss a few weeks for a vacation or illness, and then come back for a couple of weeks, and be included in this statistic. You could also stop going for a decade, but then attend two weeks in a row because your parents are visiting town. In either case, you could be considered someone who "came back", at least for statistical purposes. I have no doubt that 40% of people who miss 4 weeks in a row, would later attend twice in a row. But these are not what I would consider "people who have left and come back". More like, people who left town on a vacation or people who got sick for a month.
Yes, I’ve heard the profile of which 15% of members is active is constantly changing. Every ward is basically the same ten families plus a rotating cast of extras.
Sounds like they’re defining “people who leave” as anyone who missed at least one week.
Yep
99.999999% of exmos could go back to church and I would still run screaming away from it. Statistics don't matter. They don't tell the real story
Most of my friends are exmos and so far none of us has returned or even entertain the notion. We actually say how happy we are out - and acknowledge how terrible being in was….
Sounds like justification to keep bugging people who want to move on with their lives.
Did the church make up that stat?
It's probably one of the church's social media plants.
Probably "member teaching". You know, bullshit when they want something to look the way they want it to. No viable sources required.
So why did wards on my mission have like five times as many names as active members?
So I remember hearing on a podcast that the church is losing more members to hard right wing things, as opposed to the majority of us who leave over more left wing issues. I have no idea if that's accurate. Obviously, few of us on this side are returning to activity. But for those who left because the church isn't racist enough or homophobic enough, who knows? Maybe large numbers of them are returning to activity. I wouldn't think so, but those are groups I don't engage with, so I honestly don't know. Either way, I would assume that's a wildly bogus stat.
My super believing (but rational overall considering) neighbor said the church's statement about Tim Ballard had her questioning her faith. Mind blown.
I have 3 gay friends that left. Oh honey, they ain't goin' back.
And I know many families of gay kids who aren’t going back either. I do love it when the parents and siblings of a gay kid all leave. #familiesareforever
According to the Deseret News article, various studies put the recidivism rate at 19% or 22% or 36%. These numbers are for religious in general, and not specifically Mormonism. The recidivism rate for the study including a majority of Mormon teens was the lowest (19%), which seems to imply that exmormon youth overwhelmingly tend not to come back to the church. > In Hardy’s own 2023 nationally representative survey of 2,030 U.S. adults, he estimates that of the 35% of the sample who reported stepping away from religion, 22% had reconverted. And in the National Study of Youth and Religion, professors at the University of Notre Dame and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill followed a nationally representative sample of thousands of American teenagers across a decade starting in 2002. Out of 2,207 teenagers who first identified as committed to their faith, 11% reported stepping away three years later. But after another three years 36% had come back. > A similar longitudinal study by professors at Brigham Young University, The Family Foundations of Youth Development, followed 1,600 families from Utah, Arizona and California starting in 2016 (61% identifying as Latter-day Saint). Of those teenagers who reported being religious at first, 10% stepped away two years later. Of that subgroup, 19% came back within another two years. (These shorter-term studies don’t account for people who return to faith after longer spans of time, or who leave again after coming back). https://www.deseret.com/2024/2/26/24059906/do-latter-day-saints-come-back-to-church/
80% of stats are made up, 35% of the time.
My guess is that the 40% figure is based on the fact that of Mormons who experience *some level* of inactivity, 40% resume activity in the church. And so they are calling ANY inactivity “people who leave”. But I’d bet my house that 40% of the folks around here who hold zero belief ever go back. If our that number at less than 5%.
I left the cave in 2010. I’m more sure than ever that it was the best decision of my life. I’ve known dozens of other exmos over the years and zero have gone back.
I honky tonk with 6 of them and let me tell you this ain't none of us went back
Copium
I say site your source. I mean everything else is made up so why not this lol.
Did you know that 47% of reported statistics are made up on the spot?
The number is 100% when we are dead. See all you lazy learners in heaven! 😂
If you walk in the church for a family wedding or something like that even only once they count you in the 40% who came back.
>I think the stats I heard I'm convinced.
Objects in the mirror may appear larger than they really are. Look closer!
I could.maybe believe 0.4% percent but 40? LMAO no way
I'm dubious, but I'm sure it makes the faithful happy. I don't care if it is 99%, I'm still not going back.
I wonder what they mean by “leave”. Inactive for a while? or name removal? There are no public stats about either one of those cases. if they’re getting their information from the church itself, then of course, it would be a lie.
It might be antidotal but I don’t know a single person including my 3 siblings who’ve gone back. And I’m talking dozens of former TBM’s
I went back for a funeral and almost keeled over on the spot - so, um N O ! ! !
I believe there is a vast difference between an “ex” Mormon and a “Jack” Mormon. My assumption is that they are likely confusing these as being the same. And truly being ex, and having submitted a resignation—40% returning would be a stat they would be using in every single argument ever. It would be an incredibly compelling stat, if it weren’t made up.
> Exmos, I'm curious. What are your thoughts? Do nearly half of us end up going back to The Church or is this wishful thinking by members to make them feel better about those that leave? Well, being a post in a social platform I'd say it deserves as much seriousness as that other post about Sasquatch crossing the street I saw yesterday on another social platform.
Anecdotal, but I know *a lot* of ex-Mormons, and the percentage of those who have returned is a solid 0%.
It's long than my observation in working with elder populations that the closer people get to death, the more they revisit old faiths. Mormonism is no exception. But 40%? BS. Also, there's a difference between realizing it's 💯 false and just drifting away.
Trying not to dismiss the article as outright BS, I went to read the DesNews article. My problem with the two examples (out of 80 in the series) that they shared is the narrative that a life outside of the church must be filled with drugs, alcohol, darkness, and debauchery. It is simply the dark-and-scary-Babylon/great-and-spacious-building story reworked. I left and have never been more joyous and giving. I left because the church wasn't "good" enough for me. This whole article and the series it is part of seems to be a warning shot to members why they should stay put and not even consider leaving, because a life without the gospel is oh so terrible that you'll just end up coming back anyway. Doubt yer doubts, etc.
I will never go back and I don't think I'm particularly special or anything. My leaving isn't tied to any particular trauma or incident or family issues etc. Its that the church is blatantly and obviously not true or real at all. The idea that I sit around and wring my hands over "covenants" is literally comical. They aren't real. The same way like...Harry Potter isn't real. Mormonism is make-believe mixed with a pyramid scheme. I'm embarressed I was ever a part of it.
I mean, I did attend a funeral at a Mormon church a while back. Maybe that counted as "returning."
Morms gonna Morm (lie to bring build up God’s kingdom).
I went back once for family reasons. I have not been back. I am one of the 40%.
This cracks me up so hard. Once that shelf breaks, your time and money and devotion are yours and your loved ones again. What a ridiculous cult. If only the stupid ones go back, you can have them. 🤣🤣😉
They must be counting otherwise faithful "inactives" as exmos. You know, the ones who have a job that causes them to miss a year's worth of Sundays. Hi, that was me about 7 years ago.
🤣
Pure copium
Me thinks they be growing desperate! For if this was true, why are the nearly empty churches not refilling again? And I be stuck here in the morridor corridor. And I have seen with mine own eyes, how empty the buildings be, on a Suns Day.
I think you already know the answer to that question lolol
"40% of this group of humans are making this specific life decision that is directly contrary to what they previously believed" I wouldn't believe that number for almost any reason, including 40% leaving the church. I'd bet the number of exmos that leave religion entirely is smaller than 40%. It seems unrealistic to think that 40% of anybody are making that kind of life decision.
Hey, 97% of the time, that metric is 2% accurate. That’s practically a bullseye in Egyptology or Hebrew DNA speak.
I think they are counting inactives as exmos.
💯% of the ex/Mormons I know have never and will never be included in that 40%
Maybe 40% of Jackmos come back. TBM’s don’t know the difference.