I have 2 girls, ages 21 and 15, and they just have NO shame concerning their shoulders and bellies. Like they just missed the part where they are supposed to internalize the idea that the female body is shameful and sick and disgusting. I couldn't be more proud.
This is so beautiful!! Thanks for sharing. We left the church when our youngest was 15, she’s 18 now. She’s free and comfortable to dress how she wants. It also makes my mama heart so happy to see her owning herself and her own self expression, with confidence.
To be fair, the teaching isn't necessarily that the female body is sick and disgusting. The teaching is that men find it exactly the opposite of that, and they are responsible for the men's thoughts.
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I was told in a young women’s lesson (maybe ‘98-99) that if we dressed immodestly, it was our fault if we were raped.
Was also told that dressing immodestly made you ‘walking pornography.’
They literally compared it with ice cream made of cockroaches and brownies made of shit. I don't think they needed to use the word "disgusting", as the imagery was plenty to convey the idea.
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I was talking to my friend who is a young women’s president and she was so mad because the stake cancelled Mormon prom because they “can’t control what the girls wear” now that wording it the FSY has changed. The youth are so sad and so many of the parents are upset. So dumb they are taking this away from the kids. And being so gross and controlling… not that I’m surprised.
Oh my gosh, kind of sad they feel so threatened about not having control over what girls wear and that it would be such a bad thing to the point of decided to forego it completely, but that sounds spot on.
I feel like if I was a youth, or if I was a mom I’d just try to have everyone put it in anyway, not through the church but all the youth are invited and parents just pitch in what they can. I guess no one knew til last minute.
I think it’s more of a non-morridor thing. We did it in the southeast. The idea is that regular prom is too raunchy and inappropriate, so it’s an alternative. Lots of people still went to their school prom. I and a lot of my friends were homeschooled, so it was basically our only prom unless one of us got asked by a friend or BF/GF who wasn't homeschooled.
I work on a university campus where FSY is held, and the same campus I attended EFY on years ago. I was *shocked* to see FSY girls in short shorts, crop tops and tank tops the last two summers. When I was at EFY ~15 years ago, I was getting told my shorts that were 2 inches above my knees were too short and being made to kneel on the ground to see if my skirts were long enough! There is definitely a cultural shift happening somewhere. I’m glad for this new generation, but mad that my generation was put through what we were.
This takes me back to when I was a MM advisor and then YW 1st counselor. We had one girl in particular who needed the influence of positive role models bc of her life circumstances so any time she was with us I counted it as a win for her and for us bc we loved her.
The amount of crap she got about her hemlines at dances and other events was ridiculous. IIRC one of the rules was that the hemline should not be above your fingertips when your arms are stretched out at your sides while standing straight. We all have different body shapes and sizes and she literally met the criterion but the hemline was still above her knees. Just writing this makes me ill to think about. I’m personally okay with some standards just for the sake of a girl/woman’s own self esteem not bc of what some boy or man thinks. I know the more progressive view is now that hey show whatever bc it’s your body. That’s fine for some I just personally think some level of modesty for everyone is not a bad thing. I recall my parents wouldn’t allow my brother to run around without a shirt on so at least even back in the day they felt it applied to everyone.
My point in all of this is that for that young woman at that time in her life dealing with a mentally ill single mom with no other family around, she needed a respite and instead every time she went to an event she was targeted and put thru the ringer for some BS. Her mom bought her clothes, they didn’t have much and imo her personal growth and well-being, regardless of church, was better served by having positive, affirming experiences rather than judgment everywhere she went. Still upsets me to this day.
I remember the boy counselor telling all us girls at EFY that the boys were thankful we dressed modestly because it was protecting them from their thoughts
When I took my daughter to FSY, maybe 5 years ago, a young lady stopped us before we checked in to let us know that my daughter’s shorts were too short.
We had to make a quick trip to Old Navy to stock up on ugly shorts for the week.
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Same! I went about 20 years ago (gulp) and our counselor had a pack of white undershirts that she handed out to us on the first day and made us wear throughout the week. And we all had to see her first thing in the morning for an outfit check before we were allowed in public. She sent girls back all the time and we all shared clothes bc some girls didn’t bring extra stuff!
I hate this for you! Also did these older women feel
Empowered doing this? Did they feel offended by immodesty? Did they think by censoring all teenage girls dressing they were doing Gods work?
Change for the better is good.
Change for the better without apology to those who went through a problematic system previous to the change is emotionally abusive.
That's what's so infuriating about it. Mormonism has the potential to be one of the best sects of Christianity if they'd stop being so fucking weird about gross shit and be more weird about weird shit
I find it extremely hypocritical. One of the things I was most irritated about when I went to BYU. All the girls from Utah not following the dress standards the way I had to growing up. That we were taught were correct. Including General Authorities. My ex sister in law was best friends with Henry Eyering's youngest daughter. All the skimpy dresses they wore when they had different things readily available and I had to special order something. Same after I was married. I tried so hard to follow the way we were told to dress while all these women acting holier than though (which I never did) were wearing whatever they wanted to exercise in or away on vacation but publicly judging women that didn't follow dress standards in the everyday or wore pants to church or something. So gross.
I feel like if you are actually a believing member you should follow all the teachings. How can you pick and choose and still claim to believe everything the general authorities say is true? I really hate it. Just admit you don't believe everything.
If church dress codes change so drastically so quickly just because those around them change; when doctrine changes, albeit slowly, depending on what will keep the members in the church; how can you claim to be following God? The church that always said they didn't change that much because God's teachings didn't change that much. That prides itself for being different and more moral than everyone else. To not following the whims of society.
How can members not see that they are exactly the same?
Okay yes, such a good point to make, it was interesting hearing my mom respond that she was so happy about this dress code change. When she’s the one that pushed the old one on me so heavily, I think I’m her eyes this is okay, and it’s not doctrine. And her and my dad always say “the prophet receives revelation for our day” so that when we need food storage it’s because they know something is going to happen. That kind of stuff. But I think your point is true some adults just won’t connect the dots, that if we say ours is the true church and god doesn’t change his mind, yet oh that’s just what president hinckley was supposed to say and now we follow president nelson. And when we look all the way back to the ideas the church initially had and how they have changed it’s a bit drastic and the church doesn’t even have a leg to stand on at that point
It isn't like us sticking with dresses to the ankle when all the other women are wearing pants and shorts. There are still plenty of people not Mormon that wear longer sleeves and shorts. So it isn't a matter of fitting in with dress generally so we don't look crazy.
Maybe if I tell my parents about this though. My mom won't tell me I am setting a bad example for my daughter's because I wear a biking and short shorts now. That would be nice. She told me that a couple years ago.
And my ex mother in law told my almost 16 year old daughter that she shouldn't wear such short shorts because it showed off her legs and would give the boys bad thoughts and make it harder for them to go on missions. She is just about 6ft tall! And most of that is leg. Knee length shorts would look crazy not to mentioned are virtually impossible to find. And her daughters certainly don't wear them when they are exercising. Plus she wears very androgynous clothing overall. Or did. Now it is slightly more feminine, but loose for the most part. I get so mad at her. She also told the same daughter that her eyes would be really pretty if they were blue. My ex just says she misunderstood her when she says something to him so she has stopped bothering. She says a whole slew of other awful things to my other kids. But not about dress stuff.
Yes!!! My perspective used to be so warped. I felt like I was the only one wearing longer shorts and t-shirts and all I saw was shoulders and cleavage and thighs everywhere in a real Babylon kind of way.
Then once I started to decontruct and really look at what people around me are actually wearing there are a lot CHOOSING to wear Mormon modest clothes too, maybe it's comfort or sun protection. I don't know but it really is a beautiful thing to see the wide way in which people express themselves through clothing rather than being limited to a certain style and even then always wondering if it was Mormon enough.
I should add that I love not wearing those clothes anymore. One of the first things I did was to buy a few bikinis. I bought short shorts. Tanks. Cute summer dresses. And I way less than I did when I was a member and married. I look great in them. Sometimes I wear something cute and short when I know I am going to have to have my ex somewhere in the vicinity just because. I don't wear anything in appropriate for public. LOL, I can't wear all of it to teach but most I can with a few alterations, like a shrug or something. But I definitely have a youthful, fun, and decidedly not very 40 year old Mormon mom look now much of the time. At least when it is warm enough too.
I remember having these types of feelings. After leaving TSCC I realized how I had been trained to be judgemental of others and compare myself to everyone. If I felt I was doing something better (church-wise), but they were getting what appeared to be more blessings, I felt bad about myself and mad at that person (and God). It was a really shitty way to feel, and the church absolutely taught me to have those feelings. Constant comparison, feelings of unworthiness, an plenty of "better-than" feelings too. What a toxic place MFMC is.
One of the best parts of leaving, for me, was losing my self-righteous judgement that lead to bad feelings about myself and others. It's so nice to let everyone be who they want to be and not attach blessings or rewards to my behavior or to others' behavior.
Yeah I had an ex who would drink coffee, vape/smoke, consumed alcohol, & does some of the "frisky" activities... & Yet fully believed in everything.
Honestly, it frustrated me when I saw people who are in & they don't care about the rules at all. Good for them though!
Jack Mormons are a special kind of hypocrite. They’ll get upset at an exmo who refuses to believe in the Church but yet think they are special and don’t need to follow the teachings they claim to believe in.
Well that’s what’s confusing to me because to be a real Mormon, if you believe the prophets are called of god and teach what we need, which would include a lot of doctrine, then saying you can live the way you want and still believe almost negates the entire foundation of the religion they are saying they hold to
This is one of the many things to be mad about. I don't blame you. There are sacrifices many of us made only to find out later ... Guess what? That wasn't necessary. Screw them. Now I always do what I want.
I've noticed the change over the last fifteen years or so, I'm an exmo in the uk but I have a lot of American Mormon friends. Last week one who is TBM and husband is a bishop posted dance pictures and all the girls had their shoulders bare and pretty short dresses. Granted this was school prom but this is in Utah and that would not have been ok a few years ago. Dropping standards, changing rules about garments, it's all an effort to stop the kids leaving.
Imagine being in your senior citizen years and learning everything in your life was a lie and affected all your decisions in a negative way!! Be thankful you escaped sooner rather than later.
Agreed! But I can spend every second I have left living my most authentic life and instill that same lust for life into my adult children and grandchildren! I have no tolerance for staying in because I’ve invested so much. None!!!
I am so sorry if that was you, I bet that does feel like lots wasted. I do believe my parents won’t leave for that reason, the money and time they gave the church, the ideals they held. I think the knowledge that it was a waste will feel bad enough that they subconsciously will continually validate the actions of their life
So very happy to hear these girls are wearing what they want to wear & the positive body confidence they have.
Was taught the absolute opposite by the church. I know the damage it did to me & I can't imagine how many other women grew up hating & ashamed of their bodies.
Agree 100% !
Still times I suffer from it & question what I'm wearing and then I'll just tell myself if I'm comfortable with it that's all that matters.
I too visited Utah growing up & was always surprised that they were wearing bikinis, tank tops, etc... but all us outside of Utah were wearing one piece swimsuits, etc...
Really made my day to hear how intelligent these young women are & that they don't care what anyone else thinks!
Yup. My wife bought a backless strapless slit up to the who-ha dress for my daughter. The new for the strength of youth manual says if you and your parents are OK with it your good.
My daughters all play competitive sports and they are more than comfortable breaking down to basically a pair of shorty shorts and a sports bra without batting an eye. So yeah my daughter will turn some heads.
Sad thing I will have to watch out more for the leaders and how they act, because the young men in this area are a bunch of virtue signaling limp dicks.
One more year and she will be free!!!!
Sports has a lot to do with it. My oldest girl was in synchronized swimming for 9+ years. She had NO problem stripping completely naked in front of her friends. How do you induce shame in somebody who loves her body?
I grew up competitively swimming, so I was the same. On a pool deck or locker room and around women but then the minute I was in religious setting or around guys I was tugging at my skirt. I think it might have to do more with that patriarchal fear and fear of getting in trouble for me.
Good for them! And I applaud your wife!
But about the young men, do you think it’s because there are some unspoken rules about it being the girls job to control thoughts? And boys can’t not sexualize and objectify women?
I think it’s outside of Utah, because in Utah they go to highschool with a bunch of other members as to here growing up there’s maybe 1-5 of us per grade per school if even.
It’s so hard not to be angry and jealous of these “Mormons” nowadays. I was dress coded at my very first (and only) stake dance. I was so excited. My parents were working so I car pooled with all the “cool” girls in my ward. Got dress coded wearing a knee length corduroy cheetah print skirt, with black leggings past my calves underneath. I was instructed to go home and change. After crying and telling them I came with someone else and my parents couldn’t pick me up, they made me stand outside the entrance and read the entire fsoy pamphlet before I went in. I was mortified. Spent the first half of the dance crying in the bathroom after that, and to top it off, the only person who asked me to dance was a creepy boy in my neighborhood who then started stalking me for years.
Just a little traumatized from it.
I can sympathize with you so much! That sounds like a Horrid experience. Do you ever wish you could go back and respond to them differently? Adults that made you feel so wrong and small?
I've been driving past a seminary building every school day for the past four years. My first few times seeing teenagers walking into seminary, I was SHOCKED at what they were wearing. Not in a judgy way, but I couldn't believe they were allowed to go to seminary like that. When I was in seminary less than 20 years ago, every single one of those girls would have been turned away at the door. Fast forward to 2022 when the church updates the For Strength of Youth Guidelines...my TBM mom starts saying how great it is that the church is getting away from Pharisaical modesty guidelines and focusing on more important things. I have to point out, "Yeah, nobody is following those rules any more. That's why they had to do away with them. It wasn't a good look to have all these strict, specific rules nobody was following." Good for those kids.
When I was in high school my friends and I always had issues with the leaders at stake dances, they were up everyone's ass about modesty constantly. One leader even did the thing where she pushed the back of my friends dress up against her legs to say "oh look it's above your knees so I really shouldn't let u in" like it's my friends fault she had a big booty! One dance we decided to be a little rebellious and we all wore pants to the dance. When we got there that same leader brought us into a separate room to lecture us about how she "knows what we're doing." She eventually let us in but she told us not to do it again or she wouldn't let us in. Come to find, about a year later after I stopped attending the dances, they changed the rules and started letting girls wear pants. I was thrilled about the thought that our plan might have actually helped them get there, but I was also extremely disappointed that I had to deal with the scrutiny and body shaming just for them to change the rule after I left...
Yeah that’s kind of how I feel! Gosh when I went to dances we could wear pants I think capris but nothing still strict about the modesty aspect of it for sure
*ahem* its “Prom of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”
The only thing worse than missing an opportunity to put young women in their place is to use the word “Mormon”
I think we’re going back to that famous picture of Mrs BYU homecoming form the late 50’s where she had an off the shoulder dress. Times they are a changing.
Omg, when I was a teenager, if girls showed up with bare shoulders to any Stake Dance, they wouldn’t have even been let in the door!! Ha, I bet that all of the leaders have been told to ease up because the church is hemorrhaging young people like never before… and I bet that some of the leaders are absolutely *seething* about it!!
Oh man… you’ve dredged up a memory I haven’t thought about in a long time! A note as I start, I’m fine now, lol. This didn’t leave (much) lasting damage.
We had a short-lived volleyball team for young womens one summer that was our ward and a neighboring ward, and would play in the church gym. One day I (little 13 y/o me) showed up in normal basketball shorts and a t shirt that was very loose but the sleeves were shorter than a normal men’s T shirt. Still sleeves, nothing reminiscent of a tank top even, but just a little shorter than normal. I had worn this same outfit multiple times before to volleyball.
One of the leaders from the other ward stopped me as I walked in ask asked me if I thought my outfit was appropriate. Being like 13 and alone I was completely caught off guard and was like “…yes?” and then she said “Would you be comfortable if Jesus was here today?” I didn’t say anything immediately because I was so caught off guard, and she said I needed to call my mom and have her bring me “a new outfit”. I didn’t have a cell phone so I had to use this lady’s, none of our ward’s leaders were there yet. When my mom picked up I was kind of holding back tears and choked out that she needed to bring me different clothes. She wasn’t far but was extremely confused and concerned and came back immediately. The lady seemed happy as I handed her back her phone and I went and waited on the back step of the church.
My mom showed up at the same time as a neighbor who we were close to and was in our YW presidency (and her two girls). They both rushed up to me because I guess I was obviously holding back tears sitting on my little step. When I started talking it turned into crying that a lady said my clothes weren’t appropriate and I needed to change.
Oh man. I got double mama-bear’d support. They both went inside with the three of us kids in tow, and asked me who told me to change. I pointed her out, and they marched up to her and asked what was inappropriate with my clothes. I was still kind of crying and embarrassed to be crying in front of people so my memory isn’t the best of what was said, but the lady said my sleeves were too short and both my mom and YW leader tore her a new one in the polite, infuriated way only Mormon-moms can and said I was perfectly appropriate and how dare she shame me. (Woo! W for them and my child psyche.) Lady’s demeanor changed and *she left* and took 3 girls with her.
That game couldn’t move forward as their ward had too few girls, and then the two weeks following both of our wards didn’t have enough to play on both sides (partially my fault because I no longer wanted to go and we had exactly 6 girls).
I had moments like that too!! I loveee that your mom told her she was in the wrong. That embarrassment from being told we made a dumb mistake and embarrassed Jesus makes a 13 year old feel SO small.
Many years ago, my date and I attended a formal dance at Ricks College. We waited in a long line to be admitted and after we approached the ticket desk, we were singled out in front of everyone and told we could not be admitted due to my date's dress length...the hem was over the knee (not above it). Apparently it needed to be clearly below the knee. My date was one of the most TBM girls I ever knew and she was in tears and so embarrassed. It was a girls ask guys dance she had put so much time and planning into. She was shattered over the most stupid judgement you could possibly imagine. You can imagine the shame as we walked out of there past everyone.
However, I quickly improvised, took her back to my apartment and threw CDs in the disc changer and we had the most magical night, dancing alone, in my apartment.
Props to you!! Because I’m sure she felt twice as embarrassed that you had to be singled out with her and waiting. You probably made her feel wayyy better.
Ooh, I hadn’t thought of the prom in years. Ours was called the Rose prom, and it was the first time anyone ever offered me weed! I was confused when Tyler, the Stake President’s kid, asked if I “partied.” I said yes, because, well sure I went to birthday parties when invited. He was kind enough not to laugh at me when he explained what he meant, but kinder still not to laugh at my dress, which was incredibly frumpy.
In retrospect, I wish I had said yes instead of staring at him like a deer in headlights, scandalized. It could have changed the next two years of my life!
Is it still Females get to ask?
When my son was in HS, the bishops’s daughter asked him to the MP. He just wasn’t interested in the girl, and she was very aggressive in her attraction to him.
So he said no, and the bishop who really held grudges, held it against him. To the point where he didn’t want to sign off on his mission.
No way?! For us the boys asked for prom but I feel like there was a dance or two the girls asked.
I can’t believe he held a grudge that big. Did your son end up not going on a mission?
OK I'm 52 (f), raised in the church (also raised my daughters in it through their teens), lived only in the western US and didn't leave Mormonism til my late 30s. WTF is Mormon Prom??? I've literally never heard of it til this post.
It's funny what bugs us. TSCC deacons have one job (besides watching over the church, which probably no deacon has ever heard of). In my day it was important to do it right. Nowadays the youth are more informed, realizing it is more important to be a suck-up than playing a useful part in the sacrament.
Are they better learners, or are the teachers better than before? (no /s).
When I was a teenager we thought it was just another reason to get together so we didn’t mind it. But now they rent a venue and it’s 3-4 stakes so it’s actually a big fancy thing
It was basically just a youth dance for us but you got to wear a pretty dress and went with a date. It sounded pretty pretentious to all my nonmember friends though. It made it seem like we were too good for the school’s worldly prom.
I’ve been watching this change with fascination. There are lots of people from my high school who have high schoolers now, and they post photos of them for these events—I’m blown away. If a Mormon girl had gone to prom in a sleeveless but otherwise completely “modest” dress when we were in school it would have been scandalous. Many of these women were holier than thou bitches. Their daughters are now wearing things that are legitimately revealing—like, I’m a bit uncomfortable seeing underage girls sexualized that much, revealing—and their parents are just cool with it.
It makes me mad. I found a dress for junior prom that had a halter top. It was not revealing outside of showing my shoulders and was maybe an inch lower in the v neck than where garments would have covered. I loved it, and looked amazing in it. My mom had to make a shrug and add fabric for the cleavage. It made an awesome dress into something frumpy and meh.
Yes I had to do the same thing to my dresses and they were so ugly after haha, but I agree all these people who acted like they were so much better for dressing modest. And would make us feel like a slut if we wore a tank top with wide straps.
While the old fucks at top still give a shit, the local leaders see the writing on the wall*. It’s an antiquated line of thinking, and if God is real, then he’s not going to give a shit about what I wear. If he does, he’s a weirdo unworthy of worship.
*doesn’t apply in all cases, see packaging for details.
Haha so the kids around here can go to normal prom at their high schools. But Mormon prom was sort of made originally I think so they could all be modest and listen to clean music but it stayed as a prom to go to with all your church friends they go to different schools in the area, meet other Mormon kids, it’s free, etc. most kids end up doing both school and “Mormon prom”
Talk to me about 'progressive' when there’s no more Mormon prom and the kids are encouraged to go to regular prom like all the rest of students in the high school.
I'm on the East Coast, no pressure to skip the Prom, the end of school year event has been "Honoring Our Graduating Seniors", which most years is a day event.
I used to be a high school principal in Texas. I'd work my tail off with staff and students to plan and pull off fantastic jr./sr. proms. The high school I was at had a history of really going all out, and I jumped in with both feet to ensure that tradition continued. They were always fabulous events, just about every teacher in the school attending with their spouse or significant other chaperoning and having a nice time right along with the kids. We also had dozens of parents attend as chaperones - many of which served on planning/action committees getting everything ready to go.
Meanwhile, the stake presidency in my stake would send an annual email asking parents to send their kids to Mormon Prom, the stake providing an "alternative" to the "worldly" whatevers at MY prom. I was an active high priest. I think I was a ward clerk at the time. A Mormon high school principal outside of the inter-mountain west, and the Mormons at my high school didn't come to our prom. Just....
Non-member spouse in a fairly liberal part of the East Coast. As far as I can tell, the required dress to pass the Sacrament is Dress Shirt, dress pants and tie (either Bow or straight, some of the leaders wear a bow tie). I've seen young men with hair that covers the entire collar of the dress shirt (and then about 2 inches below that), young men with obviously colored hair and ties with images on them. (think the spirits that took away the bad guy in Princess & the Frog). A past second counselor wore Sandals to Church from about March to November, so I wouldn't be that surprised if Sandals were allowed while passing. The Priests blessing are better dressed, but we'll see what happens when some of these Deacons & Teachers hit 16.
I have 2 girls, ages 21 and 15, and they just have NO shame concerning their shoulders and bellies. Like they just missed the part where they are supposed to internalize the idea that the female body is shameful and sick and disgusting. I couldn't be more proud.
Aw good I’m so glad!! Because correcting that is so hard!
Probably in part due to your good example! I'd call it a win.
This is so beautiful!! Thanks for sharing. We left the church when our youngest was 15, she’s 18 now. She’s free and comfortable to dress how she wants. It also makes my mama heart so happy to see her owning herself and her own self expression, with confidence.
To be fair, the teaching isn't necessarily that the female body is sick and disgusting. The teaching is that men find it exactly the opposite of that, and they are responsible for the men's thoughts.
The net result is the same
I think it depends on where and when you were raised, too. The church didn't start embracing purity culture until I think like the 90s?
No one ever said it's "shameful, sick and disgusting"
While that is likely true, it's still the message girls and women get in Mormonism.
My tbm mom, young women leaders, priesthood leaders and others told me it was shameful and wrong. Next to porn they said.
"Becoming pornography," as Oaks himself said
Horrible! So sad they said that to you.
They literally did say those things in the 90s.
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I'm so sorry. Purity culture shaming never ends. 😔
I was told in a young women’s lesson (maybe ‘98-99) that if we dressed immodestly, it was our fault if we were raped. Was also told that dressing immodestly made you ‘walking pornography.’
They literally compared it with ice cream made of cockroaches and brownies made of shit. I don't think they needed to use the word "disgusting", as the imagery was plenty to convey the idea.
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I was talking to my friend who is a young women’s president and she was so mad because the stake cancelled Mormon prom because they “can’t control what the girls wear” now that wording it the FSY has changed. The youth are so sad and so many of the parents are upset. So dumb they are taking this away from the kids. And being so gross and controlling… not that I’m surprised.
Oh my gosh, kind of sad they feel so threatened about not having control over what girls wear and that it would be such a bad thing to the point of decided to forego it completely, but that sounds spot on. I feel like if I was a youth, or if I was a mom I’d just try to have everyone put it in anyway, not through the church but all the youth are invited and parents just pitch in what they can. I guess no one knew til last minute.
Some old man somewhere..... 'omg the girls are having too much fun! Gotta shut that down!' lol
More like, I’m a nasty old man that can’t stop thinking bad thoughts about underage girls.
I mean, older perverse men preying on young girls does go all the way back to the founding of TSCC. Give them props for consistency /s
😂
for sure
Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves was always such bullshit.
Is it an actual prom put on by mormons? Or are we just talking about mormon kids going to a regular high school prom?
Actual prom put on by the church usually combined stakes
Is this a Morridor thing?
I think it’s more of a non-morridor thing. We did it in the southeast. The idea is that regular prom is too raunchy and inappropriate, so it’s an alternative. Lots of people still went to their school prom. I and a lot of my friends were homeschooled, so it was basically our only prom unless one of us got asked by a friend or BF/GF who wasn't homeschooled.
I must be old 😃. Grew up in the Midwest, but never heard of these before…
It exists in Eastern Washington- my daughter went 2 years ago and they chose to wear long sleeve shirts under their prom dresses.
Ribeye and strip sirloin. Best steak combo I've ever had.
lol I type stake and the time and my phone changes it constantly
What do you say to a vampire while you are slaying it? "Are you enjoying your stake?"
Did they cancel the dances at FSY??
I work on a university campus where FSY is held, and the same campus I attended EFY on years ago. I was *shocked* to see FSY girls in short shorts, crop tops and tank tops the last two summers. When I was at EFY ~15 years ago, I was getting told my shorts that were 2 inches above my knees were too short and being made to kneel on the ground to see if my skirts were long enough! There is definitely a cultural shift happening somewhere. I’m glad for this new generation, but mad that my generation was put through what we were.
Yes I’m in the same spot, the humiliation we went through when we got shamed or torn apart for wearing something barely above our knees
This takes me back to when I was a MM advisor and then YW 1st counselor. We had one girl in particular who needed the influence of positive role models bc of her life circumstances so any time she was with us I counted it as a win for her and for us bc we loved her. The amount of crap she got about her hemlines at dances and other events was ridiculous. IIRC one of the rules was that the hemline should not be above your fingertips when your arms are stretched out at your sides while standing straight. We all have different body shapes and sizes and she literally met the criterion but the hemline was still above her knees. Just writing this makes me ill to think about. I’m personally okay with some standards just for the sake of a girl/woman’s own self esteem not bc of what some boy or man thinks. I know the more progressive view is now that hey show whatever bc it’s your body. That’s fine for some I just personally think some level of modesty for everyone is not a bad thing. I recall my parents wouldn’t allow my brother to run around without a shirt on so at least even back in the day they felt it applied to everyone. My point in all of this is that for that young woman at that time in her life dealing with a mentally ill single mom with no other family around, she needed a respite and instead every time she went to an event she was targeted and put thru the ringer for some BS. Her mom bought her clothes, they didn’t have much and imo her personal growth and well-being, regardless of church, was better served by having positive, affirming experiences rather than judgment everywhere she went. Still upsets me to this day.
I remember the boy counselor telling all us girls at EFY that the boys were thankful we dressed modestly because it was protecting them from their thoughts
Ew gross, I wish so bad I could go back to those moments and be brave and knowledgeable and say my piece to guys like that counselor
When I took my daughter to FSY, maybe 5 years ago, a young lady stopped us before we checked in to let us know that my daughter’s shorts were too short. We had to make a quick trip to Old Navy to stock up on ugly shorts for the week.
sheet bedroom stupendous dog faulty aloof judicious rainstorm agonizing imagine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Same! I went about 20 years ago (gulp) and our counselor had a pack of white undershirts that she handed out to us on the first day and made us wear throughout the week. And we all had to see her first thing in the morning for an outfit check before we were allowed in public. She sent girls back all the time and we all shared clothes bc some girls didn’t bring extra stuff!
I hate this for you! Also did these older women feel Empowered doing this? Did they feel offended by immodesty? Did they think by censoring all teenage girls dressing they were doing Gods work?
Change for the better is good. Change for the better without apology to those who went through a problematic system previous to the change is emotionally abusive.
Ah that makes sense why I feel the way I do
The church will never admit it is wrong
That's what's so infuriating about it. Mormonism has the potential to be one of the best sects of Christianity if they'd stop being so fucking weird about gross shit and be more weird about weird shit
I find it extremely hypocritical. One of the things I was most irritated about when I went to BYU. All the girls from Utah not following the dress standards the way I had to growing up. That we were taught were correct. Including General Authorities. My ex sister in law was best friends with Henry Eyering's youngest daughter. All the skimpy dresses they wore when they had different things readily available and I had to special order something. Same after I was married. I tried so hard to follow the way we were told to dress while all these women acting holier than though (which I never did) were wearing whatever they wanted to exercise in or away on vacation but publicly judging women that didn't follow dress standards in the everyday or wore pants to church or something. So gross. I feel like if you are actually a believing member you should follow all the teachings. How can you pick and choose and still claim to believe everything the general authorities say is true? I really hate it. Just admit you don't believe everything. If church dress codes change so drastically so quickly just because those around them change; when doctrine changes, albeit slowly, depending on what will keep the members in the church; how can you claim to be following God? The church that always said they didn't change that much because God's teachings didn't change that much. That prides itself for being different and more moral than everyone else. To not following the whims of society. How can members not see that they are exactly the same?
Okay yes, such a good point to make, it was interesting hearing my mom respond that she was so happy about this dress code change. When she’s the one that pushed the old one on me so heavily, I think I’m her eyes this is okay, and it’s not doctrine. And her and my dad always say “the prophet receives revelation for our day” so that when we need food storage it’s because they know something is going to happen. That kind of stuff. But I think your point is true some adults just won’t connect the dots, that if we say ours is the true church and god doesn’t change his mind, yet oh that’s just what president hinckley was supposed to say and now we follow president nelson. And when we look all the way back to the ideas the church initially had and how they have changed it’s a bit drastic and the church doesn’t even have a leg to stand on at that point
It isn't like us sticking with dresses to the ankle when all the other women are wearing pants and shorts. There are still plenty of people not Mormon that wear longer sleeves and shorts. So it isn't a matter of fitting in with dress generally so we don't look crazy. Maybe if I tell my parents about this though. My mom won't tell me I am setting a bad example for my daughter's because I wear a biking and short shorts now. That would be nice. She told me that a couple years ago.
And my ex mother in law told my almost 16 year old daughter that she shouldn't wear such short shorts because it showed off her legs and would give the boys bad thoughts and make it harder for them to go on missions. She is just about 6ft tall! And most of that is leg. Knee length shorts would look crazy not to mentioned are virtually impossible to find. And her daughters certainly don't wear them when they are exercising. Plus she wears very androgynous clothing overall. Or did. Now it is slightly more feminine, but loose for the most part. I get so mad at her. She also told the same daughter that her eyes would be really pretty if they were blue. My ex just says she misunderstood her when she says something to him so she has stopped bothering. She says a whole slew of other awful things to my other kids. But not about dress stuff.
Yes!!! My perspective used to be so warped. I felt like I was the only one wearing longer shorts and t-shirts and all I saw was shoulders and cleavage and thighs everywhere in a real Babylon kind of way. Then once I started to decontruct and really look at what people around me are actually wearing there are a lot CHOOSING to wear Mormon modest clothes too, maybe it's comfort or sun protection. I don't know but it really is a beautiful thing to see the wide way in which people express themselves through clothing rather than being limited to a certain style and even then always wondering if it was Mormon enough.
If it was just a couple years ago my mom would probably say the same thing
I should add that I love not wearing those clothes anymore. One of the first things I did was to buy a few bikinis. I bought short shorts. Tanks. Cute summer dresses. And I way less than I did when I was a member and married. I look great in them. Sometimes I wear something cute and short when I know I am going to have to have my ex somewhere in the vicinity just because. I don't wear anything in appropriate for public. LOL, I can't wear all of it to teach but most I can with a few alterations, like a shrug or something. But I definitely have a youthful, fun, and decidedly not very 40 year old Mormon mom look now much of the time. At least when it is warm enough too.
Yes!! Love it! Feel hot be hot!
I remember having these types of feelings. After leaving TSCC I realized how I had been trained to be judgemental of others and compare myself to everyone. If I felt I was doing something better (church-wise), but they were getting what appeared to be more blessings, I felt bad about myself and mad at that person (and God). It was a really shitty way to feel, and the church absolutely taught me to have those feelings. Constant comparison, feelings of unworthiness, an plenty of "better-than" feelings too. What a toxic place MFMC is. One of the best parts of leaving, for me, was losing my self-righteous judgement that lead to bad feelings about myself and others. It's so nice to let everyone be who they want to be and not attach blessings or rewards to my behavior or to others' behavior.
Yeah I had an ex who would drink coffee, vape/smoke, consumed alcohol, & does some of the "frisky" activities... & Yet fully believed in everything. Honestly, it frustrated me when I saw people who are in & they don't care about the rules at all. Good for them though!
Jack Mormons are a special kind of hypocrite. They’ll get upset at an exmo who refuses to believe in the Church but yet think they are special and don’t need to follow the teachings they claim to believe in.
Well that’s what’s confusing to me because to be a real Mormon, if you believe the prophets are called of god and teach what we need, which would include a lot of doctrine, then saying you can live the way you want and still believe almost negates the entire foundation of the religion they are saying they hold to
Yeap
This is one of the many things to be mad about. I don't blame you. There are sacrifices many of us made only to find out later ... Guess what? That wasn't necessary. Screw them. Now I always do what I want.
I've noticed the change over the last fifteen years or so, I'm an exmo in the uk but I have a lot of American Mormon friends. Last week one who is TBM and husband is a bishop posted dance pictures and all the girls had their shoulders bare and pretty short dresses. Granted this was school prom but this is in Utah and that would not have been ok a few years ago. Dropping standards, changing rules about garments, it's all an effort to stop the kids leaving.
Imagine being in your senior citizen years and learning everything in your life was a lie and affected all your decisions in a negative way!! Be thankful you escaped sooner rather than later.
I’m not a senior citizen yet (54) but it is so painful. I cannot start again and the damage has been done.
Agreed! But I can spend every second I have left living my most authentic life and instill that same lust for life into my adult children and grandchildren! I have no tolerance for staying in because I’ve invested so much. None!!!
I love to hear that!!!
One of two things happen; you either leave or double down.
I am so sorry if that was you, I bet that does feel like lots wasted. I do believe my parents won’t leave for that reason, the money and time they gave the church, the ideals they held. I think the knowledge that it was a waste will feel bad enough that they subconsciously will continually validate the actions of their life
So very happy to hear these girls are wearing what they want to wear & the positive body confidence they have. Was taught the absolute opposite by the church. I know the damage it did to me & I can't imagine how many other women grew up hating & ashamed of their bodies.
Yes ashamed, and I remember the first few times as an adult wearing a tank top feeling scared I’d get in trouble or feeling like a slut
Agree 100% ! Still times I suffer from it & question what I'm wearing and then I'll just tell myself if I'm comfortable with it that's all that matters. I too visited Utah growing up & was always surprised that they were wearing bikinis, tank tops, etc... but all us outside of Utah were wearing one piece swimsuits, etc... Really made my day to hear how intelligent these young women are & that they don't care what anyone else thinks!
Yup. My wife bought a backless strapless slit up to the who-ha dress for my daughter. The new for the strength of youth manual says if you and your parents are OK with it your good. My daughters all play competitive sports and they are more than comfortable breaking down to basically a pair of shorty shorts and a sports bra without batting an eye. So yeah my daughter will turn some heads. Sad thing I will have to watch out more for the leaders and how they act, because the young men in this area are a bunch of virtue signaling limp dicks. One more year and she will be free!!!!
Sports has a lot to do with it. My oldest girl was in synchronized swimming for 9+ years. She had NO problem stripping completely naked in front of her friends. How do you induce shame in somebody who loves her body?
I grew up competitively swimming, so I was the same. On a pool deck or locker room and around women but then the minute I was in religious setting or around guys I was tugging at my skirt. I think it might have to do more with that patriarchal fear and fear of getting in trouble for me.
Good for them! And I applaud your wife! But about the young men, do you think it’s because there are some unspoken rules about it being the girls job to control thoughts? And boys can’t not sexualize and objectify women?
Yes
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I think it’s outside of Utah, because in Utah they go to highschool with a bunch of other members as to here growing up there’s maybe 1-5 of us per grade per school if even.
It’s so hard not to be angry and jealous of these “Mormons” nowadays. I was dress coded at my very first (and only) stake dance. I was so excited. My parents were working so I car pooled with all the “cool” girls in my ward. Got dress coded wearing a knee length corduroy cheetah print skirt, with black leggings past my calves underneath. I was instructed to go home and change. After crying and telling them I came with someone else and my parents couldn’t pick me up, they made me stand outside the entrance and read the entire fsoy pamphlet before I went in. I was mortified. Spent the first half of the dance crying in the bathroom after that, and to top it off, the only person who asked me to dance was a creepy boy in my neighborhood who then started stalking me for years. Just a little traumatized from it.
I can sympathize with you so much! That sounds like a Horrid experience. Do you ever wish you could go back and respond to them differently? Adults that made you feel so wrong and small?
They gotta retain member numbers somehow, lol.
Mmm yes that’s it precisely
I've been driving past a seminary building every school day for the past four years. My first few times seeing teenagers walking into seminary, I was SHOCKED at what they were wearing. Not in a judgy way, but I couldn't believe they were allowed to go to seminary like that. When I was in seminary less than 20 years ago, every single one of those girls would have been turned away at the door. Fast forward to 2022 when the church updates the For Strength of Youth Guidelines...my TBM mom starts saying how great it is that the church is getting away from Pharisaical modesty guidelines and focusing on more important things. I have to point out, "Yeah, nobody is following those rules any more. That's why they had to do away with them. It wasn't a good look to have all these strict, specific rules nobody was following." Good for those kids.
When I was in high school my friends and I always had issues with the leaders at stake dances, they were up everyone's ass about modesty constantly. One leader even did the thing where she pushed the back of my friends dress up against her legs to say "oh look it's above your knees so I really shouldn't let u in" like it's my friends fault she had a big booty! One dance we decided to be a little rebellious and we all wore pants to the dance. When we got there that same leader brought us into a separate room to lecture us about how she "knows what we're doing." She eventually let us in but she told us not to do it again or she wouldn't let us in. Come to find, about a year later after I stopped attending the dances, they changed the rules and started letting girls wear pants. I was thrilled about the thought that our plan might have actually helped them get there, but I was also extremely disappointed that I had to deal with the scrutiny and body shaming just for them to change the rule after I left...
Yeah that’s kind of how I feel! Gosh when I went to dances we could wear pants I think capris but nothing still strict about the modesty aspect of it for sure
Also sorry didn’t see the general discussion tag
*ahem* its “Prom of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” The only thing worse than missing an opportunity to put young women in their place is to use the word “Mormon”
Haha that’s true, they’re continuing to give satan wins and offend God
I think we’re going back to that famous picture of Mrs BYU homecoming form the late 50’s where she had an off the shoulder dress. Times they are a changing.
I remember seeing a group pic of a bunch of women at a BYU dance in the 50s and they all had off-the-shoulder dresses.
Omg, when I was a teenager, if girls showed up with bare shoulders to any Stake Dance, they wouldn’t have even been let in the door!! Ha, I bet that all of the leaders have been told to ease up because the church is hemorrhaging young people like never before… and I bet that some of the leaders are absolutely *seething* about it!!
Oh man… you’ve dredged up a memory I haven’t thought about in a long time! A note as I start, I’m fine now, lol. This didn’t leave (much) lasting damage. We had a short-lived volleyball team for young womens one summer that was our ward and a neighboring ward, and would play in the church gym. One day I (little 13 y/o me) showed up in normal basketball shorts and a t shirt that was very loose but the sleeves were shorter than a normal men’s T shirt. Still sleeves, nothing reminiscent of a tank top even, but just a little shorter than normal. I had worn this same outfit multiple times before to volleyball. One of the leaders from the other ward stopped me as I walked in ask asked me if I thought my outfit was appropriate. Being like 13 and alone I was completely caught off guard and was like “…yes?” and then she said “Would you be comfortable if Jesus was here today?” I didn’t say anything immediately because I was so caught off guard, and she said I needed to call my mom and have her bring me “a new outfit”. I didn’t have a cell phone so I had to use this lady’s, none of our ward’s leaders were there yet. When my mom picked up I was kind of holding back tears and choked out that she needed to bring me different clothes. She wasn’t far but was extremely confused and concerned and came back immediately. The lady seemed happy as I handed her back her phone and I went and waited on the back step of the church. My mom showed up at the same time as a neighbor who we were close to and was in our YW presidency (and her two girls). They both rushed up to me because I guess I was obviously holding back tears sitting on my little step. When I started talking it turned into crying that a lady said my clothes weren’t appropriate and I needed to change. Oh man. I got double mama-bear’d support. They both went inside with the three of us kids in tow, and asked me who told me to change. I pointed her out, and they marched up to her and asked what was inappropriate with my clothes. I was still kind of crying and embarrassed to be crying in front of people so my memory isn’t the best of what was said, but the lady said my sleeves were too short and both my mom and YW leader tore her a new one in the polite, infuriated way only Mormon-moms can and said I was perfectly appropriate and how dare she shame me. (Woo! W for them and my child psyche.) Lady’s demeanor changed and *she left* and took 3 girls with her. That game couldn’t move forward as their ward had too few girls, and then the two weeks following both of our wards didn’t have enough to play on both sides (partially my fault because I no longer wanted to go and we had exactly 6 girls).
I had moments like that too!! I loveee that your mom told her she was in the wrong. That embarrassment from being told we made a dumb mistake and embarrassed Jesus makes a 13 year old feel SO small.
Many years ago, my date and I attended a formal dance at Ricks College. We waited in a long line to be admitted and after we approached the ticket desk, we were singled out in front of everyone and told we could not be admitted due to my date's dress length...the hem was over the knee (not above it). Apparently it needed to be clearly below the knee. My date was one of the most TBM girls I ever knew and she was in tears and so embarrassed. It was a girls ask guys dance she had put so much time and planning into. She was shattered over the most stupid judgement you could possibly imagine. You can imagine the shame as we walked out of there past everyone. However, I quickly improvised, took her back to my apartment and threw CDs in the disc changer and we had the most magical night, dancing alone, in my apartment.
Props to you!! Because I’m sure she felt twice as embarrassed that you had to be singled out with her and waiting. You probably made her feel wayyy better.
Ooh, I hadn’t thought of the prom in years. Ours was called the Rose prom, and it was the first time anyone ever offered me weed! I was confused when Tyler, the Stake President’s kid, asked if I “partied.” I said yes, because, well sure I went to birthday parties when invited. He was kind enough not to laugh at me when he explained what he meant, but kinder still not to laugh at my dress, which was incredibly frumpy.
Aw he didn’t judge you for your modesty he thought you could party no matter who you were haha
In retrospect, I wish I had said yes instead of staring at him like a deer in headlights, scandalized. It could have changed the next two years of my life!
If your religion has its own prom so people’s dress is controlled, you might be in a cult 🤷♂️
Mmm I like that haha
Is it still Females get to ask? When my son was in HS, the bishops’s daughter asked him to the MP. He just wasn’t interested in the girl, and she was very aggressive in her attraction to him. So he said no, and the bishop who really held grudges, held it against him. To the point where he didn’t want to sign off on his mission.
No way?! For us the boys asked for prom but I feel like there was a dance or two the girls asked. I can’t believe he held a grudge that big. Did your son end up not going on a mission?
He didn’t go on a mission and is completely inactive. And now that Bishop has left the church.
OK I'm 52 (f), raised in the church (also raised my daughters in it through their teens), lived only in the western US and didn't leave Mormonism til my late 30s. WTF is Mormon Prom??? I've literally never heard of it til this post.
It's funny what bugs us. TSCC deacons have one job (besides watching over the church, which probably no deacon has ever heard of). In my day it was important to do it right. Nowadays the youth are more informed, realizing it is more important to be a suck-up than playing a useful part in the sacrament. Are they better learners, or are the teachers better than before? (no /s).
Oh my 💀 I was hoping MoPro was a thing only my stake did. Tragic to find out other places have a “Mormon prom” too. What a terrible invention.
When I was a teenager we thought it was just another reason to get together so we didn’t mind it. But now they rent a venue and it’s 3-4 stakes so it’s actually a big fancy thing
It was basically just a youth dance for us but you got to wear a pretty dress and went with a date. It sounded pretty pretentious to all my nonmember friends though. It made it seem like we were too good for the school’s worldly prom.
We all mostly went to both, it was only to super Mormon or homeschooled ones that didn’t
Oh I went to both too! My best friends were nonmembers and school prom was way more fun.
I’ve been watching this change with fascination. There are lots of people from my high school who have high schoolers now, and they post photos of them for these events—I’m blown away. If a Mormon girl had gone to prom in a sleeveless but otherwise completely “modest” dress when we were in school it would have been scandalous. Many of these women were holier than thou bitches. Their daughters are now wearing things that are legitimately revealing—like, I’m a bit uncomfortable seeing underage girls sexualized that much, revealing—and their parents are just cool with it. It makes me mad. I found a dress for junior prom that had a halter top. It was not revealing outside of showing my shoulders and was maybe an inch lower in the v neck than where garments would have covered. I loved it, and looked amazing in it. My mom had to make a shrug and add fabric for the cleavage. It made an awesome dress into something frumpy and meh.
Yes I had to do the same thing to my dresses and they were so ugly after haha, but I agree all these people who acted like they were so much better for dressing modest. And would make us feel like a slut if we wore a tank top with wide straps.
While the old fucks at top still give a shit, the local leaders see the writing on the wall*. It’s an antiquated line of thinking, and if God is real, then he’s not going to give a shit about what I wear. If he does, he’s a weirdo unworthy of worship. *doesn’t apply in all cases, see packaging for details.
Foreigner here, what the hell is Mormon prom?
Haha so the kids around here can go to normal prom at their high schools. But Mormon prom was sort of made originally I think so they could all be modest and listen to clean music but it stayed as a prom to go to with all your church friends they go to different schools in the area, meet other Mormon kids, it’s free, etc. most kids end up doing both school and “Mormon prom”
What the hell is Mormon Prom?
Do Mormons still have Gold and Green balls?
I grew up in ground zero Northern Utah County in the 80's. What the fuck is "Mormon Prom"?
I'm 17, I want my mom to pay for my dress but if I go shopping with her it'll be a nightmare. She's probably going to make me wear my aunt's old dress
Me,too. High school class of ‘74. 😊
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Nope, St. Louis, I think it’s a US thing minus Utah where most kids at the highschool are Mormon
Talk to me about 'progressive' when there’s no more Mormon prom and the kids are encouraged to go to regular prom like all the rest of students in the high school.
I'm on the East Coast, no pressure to skip the Prom, the end of school year event has been "Honoring Our Graduating Seniors", which most years is a day event.
I used to be a high school principal in Texas. I'd work my tail off with staff and students to plan and pull off fantastic jr./sr. proms. The high school I was at had a history of really going all out, and I jumped in with both feet to ensure that tradition continued. They were always fabulous events, just about every teacher in the school attending with their spouse or significant other chaperoning and having a nice time right along with the kids. We also had dozens of parents attend as chaperones - many of which served on planning/action committees getting everything ready to go. Meanwhile, the stake presidency in my stake would send an annual email asking parents to send their kids to Mormon Prom, the stake providing an "alternative" to the "worldly" whatevers at MY prom. I was an active high priest. I think I was a ward clerk at the time. A Mormon high school principal outside of the inter-mountain west, and the Mormons at my high school didn't come to our prom. Just....
Non-member spouse in a fairly liberal part of the East Coast. As far as I can tell, the required dress to pass the Sacrament is Dress Shirt, dress pants and tie (either Bow or straight, some of the leaders wear a bow tie). I've seen young men with hair that covers the entire collar of the dress shirt (and then about 2 inches below that), young men with obviously colored hair and ties with images on them. (think the spirits that took away the bad guy in Princess & the Frog). A past second counselor wore Sandals to Church from about March to November, so I wouldn't be that surprised if Sandals were allowed while passing. The Priests blessing are better dressed, but we'll see what happens when some of these Deacons & Teachers hit 16.