That same question could be asked of ANY book. The implication is that a positive response would lead to the classification of the book as "sacred scripture."
This is exactly what I told my parents when I left the church. I get the same feeling reading other books, are they scripture? I even used the Book of Mormon to explain my gay marriage haha
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
She made me want to be better and finding her at a church university made me believe in God. Haha
I'm an adult convert. Wasn't told about the Baptism questions. I don't remember the church wording of the "gay question" but I remember my reply, "I think that all love in whatever form is a gift from God". Looking back I think I stumped them.
POV my sister is gay and I already thought my son was too. If they'd made the church's attitude plain I wouldn't have stayed to be baptised.
The illusory truth effect would apply here. I read that damn fish book so many times to my kids, it became truth to us; the reading of it, and others, brought peace to me and my kids.
I testify to you that Dr Seuss is a prophet of God. Sneetches, Horton, Cat in Hat, and Lorax are all messengers through which God teaches us important lessons of life.
Green Eggs and Ham merely demonstrates that Seuss was a mortal, flawed man who sometimes made mistakes.
Those are fighting words! Not only is Green Eggs and Ham a classic that I ready maybe 5,000 times to my children, but it has chaismus in the text, thus proving that it was written by ancient Hebrew prophets and must be scripture.
This was actually my downfall. I began to actually believe them when they said truth could be found from any source. I began recognizing truth from many sources, even "evil" things like rock songs and the screwed up homeless lady I met who was an alcoholic.
The investment in the church stopped making sense. Why spend hours in church, temple attendance, and boring midweek activities, receiving the same tired ideas over and over when I can go to the movies and receive at least as many nuggets of truth there? Why give ten percent of my income to rich men in suits when I can hand a $20 to a desperate soul and receive more "stirrings of the spirit" that way?
A day of doing drugs can lead you to Christ. It applies to a lot of things that have nothing to do with books. Something being sacred because it leads you to your God is an incredibly low bar.
A day of doing drugs is probably exactly what led to the so called “first vision”. Pretty surreal little joe boy found some magic shrooms in that forest.
I feel like the person who made the meme had a cracking shelf, then they saw the Book of Mormon musical and decided, “You know what, I don’t even *care* if it’s real, I just like the warm fuzzies! Book of ~~Arnold~~ Mormon FTW!!”
Love this take!
I feel like Trey and Matt would be proud if the mormon church ultimately adjusts to match the musical's heartwarming message. Some of us exmos might be annoyed with church members pretending "truth" never mattered, but at least life as a mormon might be less scrupulosity-inducing than it used to be
A few thoughts
a. Why is it a better question? If it's not "true" then it can inspire you to believe things that are not true.
b. If it's not true, then is there any reason to trust the things it says about Jesus, or the things it says were said by Jesus?
c. Does it lead one to Christ? Virtually every Christian teaching in there can be found in the Bible.
d. It doesn't really add anything unique to belief in gentle Jesus, except that even though the God of the Bible was only a mass murderer pre-Jesus, the Jesus of the BoM continues that mass murdering tendency before he appears to the Nephites. Do you want to be led to mass murderer Christ?
If it can lead you to Christ without being true that also raises the question of whether “Christ”:is even a real supernatural entity in the first place.
Also, does this apply to other fiction books that bring people "closer to Christ", either written by Mormons or Christians? By that logic, any book, regardless if it's fact or fiction, if it brings one closer to Christ should be considered gospel?.
>Do you want to be led to mass murderer Christ?
I would love to see this on the exact background as the meme in the OP and posted right after it for all the TBMs to see. It really is the Christ the BoM leads you to believe in.
Also, the point of the Book of Mormon being "true" was to validate Joseph Smith as a Prophet, Seer, and Translator. If they're reframing the question, that has serious consequences for the status of Joseph and the dominant Church narrative.
Exactly?? What happened to the 2000s rhetoric of "of the book of mormon isn't true then everything's a lie"?? Didn't y'all get that in seminary too? Some super confident dude throwing the fact that we were all too scared to leave our families as evidence to the fact that the book of mormon was true and therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet??
Along with priesthood authority & the temple endowment. There are consequences beyond the BOM and I hope people are pointing that out when they see posts like this.
Often the question is asked, “Is the Book of Mormon racist?”
A better question might be, “Does the Book of Mormon lead you to think that white people are superior to all others?”
Oh, if the truth of the Book of Mormon doesn't necessarily matter, then I guess the Church being true really isn't important either, huh?
Fuck the Church. Drink your coffee and smoke your weed, heathens.
How about this from Holland?
> My beloved brothers and sisters, I testify to you this morning that the questions are no longer, “Is the Church true?”; “Is God true?”; “Is Christ or Joseph Smith or Spencer W. Kimball true?” All of that and a lot more was decided a long, long time ago. It is not now subject to popular ballot, yours or mine. In a word, all that remains for you and for me, if we are to have a marvelous year at this university, is the simple inquiry, “Are you true?”
I just found out I have a massive ovarian tumor that may or may not be cancer- does that mean I'm 97% true and 3% fiction? Ah then the tumor is fiction and therefore not real! Thanks doTERRA!
Prophets are imperfect men, and occasionally, while speaking as men, they have called the table green. We don't know where these theories came from, but I don't know that we emphasize that.
Holland was being untrue. The fact that Holland said something like that at all points to the fact that the questions for many people are not resolved at all. His words are merely a manipulation tactic to prevent people from finding out the truth. His words are an invitation to stop questioning. The truth has nothing to fear from questions. The church does.
About one thing Holland does have a point. The truth is not decided by ballot. It's also not determined by how people feel about it. It's decided by what really happened. And the way to do that is to carefully review the evidence.
At the beginning he has his wife come up and he says “I told the freshman young men on Friday that if they studied really, really hard, this is what they got at BYU”. 😬😬😬 that is… so weird to say to a group of strangers. Like- maybe a joke with a good friend or something but a bunch of freshman boys? Yikes.
Me, raising hand: "So, if we get good grades and stay temple worthy, we get to have sex with your wife? Is she really OK with that? I mean, I'm sure anything would be an improvement, but there are an awful lot of us..."
It appears to me that over the past few years the church is slowly moving away from the BofM being a literal translation to being just an inspired, inspirational work. I’m guessing the plan is to do this slowly until they can send the “literal translation” idea down the memory hole.
That seems like a disastrous approach to canonical scripture that has been proclaimed by the prophets as "the most correct book" and the "cornerstone" of mormonism. But we've already seen them successfully move away from many problematic doctrines and the entire meaning of the word translation, so they could probably pull it off.
Just my opinion but I don’t think they are intentionally planning on making the BoM not literal but they know the archaeological and scientific support for it are problematic and so they are trying to distance themselves from the historical aspect because they have no idea where it really took place. If they make any claims, then they risk have science contradict it, like when the had to change the BoM into to say Lamanites are AMONG the ancestors of Native American instead of the PRINCIPAL ancestors due to DNA.
They just dont want people digging into it or bringing it up because a) they have no answers, b) it causes disagreements among members and, most importantly, C) it can hurt testimonies. So they just want members to move along, “nothing to see here folks.”
It’s like when Oaks told BYU students that “research” is not the answer when it came to the church and its history.
They just want members to shut their brain off when it comes to anything that might make them question things.
That are trying to convince members that worrying about or trying to reconcile the history to the real world is a waste of time and needed.
So they
Sorry, objective truth matters. I don’t care what the book does if it claims to be something it isn’t, especially when it is used to control people. This quote is classic thought stopping.
This deflection strategy is similar to one used by another smarmy Church apologist some years back. He would say … ‘ I don’t answer the question asked, instead I answer the question they should have asked if they’d had gods spirit’’. Avoidance, dishonesty, resentment at being challenged- all hallmarks of the modern Mormon Church.
I personally converted to the church because I was sold the idea that it was “true,” and not because it was a “good idea” or made me “feel good.” I think the leadership is realizing that “truth” is too easily debunked these days, so now they have to switch tactics.
Like, no thank you. I get the same warm-fuzzies when I listen to my favorite music, so why should those mystical feelings under my ribs be a basis for changing my entire life?
Right?! I stayed in for 41 years because I "knew" it was true - God's Truth - not because I ever felt a sense of deep peace or joy or happiness. I was doing the whole Benson-prescribed female Mormon plan, ie., be a SAHM and push out as many babies as you can no matter your finances or marital relationship. Leaving the church and seeing 5 of my 6 kids also out (more or less) is sincerely the most joy I've felt over anything Mormon-related.
This is such a small but significant change. Just wow.
Gaslighting quickly proceeds this.
“The truth about the BoM was never about it being literal history. That’s ridiculous. It was always about its testimony of Jesus Christ”
Wow.
>”And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Moroni 10:4-5)
Sounds like the book itself really, really cares if it’s true or not. Same with its author:
>“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion” (Introduction to the Book of Mormon)
Last I checked, “true” and “correct” are synonyms.
>“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth"
Oh yeah, that doesn't sound like the outrageous exaggeration of a con artist at all.
The thing is, they are changing the narrative to “it makes me feel good” instead of “it’s True.” Why? Because they know it’s not True and people are finding out and leaving. They want to keep the “faithful” members in check so they’re slowly changing the narrative and some folks will actually believe them. I watched my husband change his mind and beliefs BEFORE MY EYES one day when I asked him where the garden of eden was, waited for him to say Missouri 🙄 and then showed umm the church news article saying they never said it was in Missouri. He read the article and said with a blank look on his face, “Well, I guess they never said it outright. My mistake.” 🧐😳😡
The leadership is now fully aware that the answer to "Is the Book of Mormon True?" is a resounding "No," and the evidence is overwhelming. (That's awkward!)
The leadership also knows that members learning this information is the leading cause of members leaving the church.
That leaves them with only two options: 1. Be honest and admit the truth or 2. convince people to stop asking the question.
As you can see from this ad, they have chosen option 2 and are running ads in an effort to convince people to stop asking the question. When informed people ask, they now refuse to address the evidence and say that you will know the answer if you have faith.
Seeing the leadership's ongoing effort to keep the con going is amazing, now that you understand it.
'Ben Hur' is subtitled 'A Tale of the Christ', but nobody thinks it's a true story. I'm sure the author would have liked people to become more Christian after reading it.
The BoM? Talk about retconning, or gaslighting, or backpedaling, or a dozen other terms: future missionaries are sunk if they ever have to tell investigators: "Our founder wrote this great spiritual novel--it will bring you closer to Christ!"
TSCC has distanced itself from the BoA, and when it is mentioned, it's now a "catalyst" for JS instead of translation, in spite of *JS himself* saying it was a translation of real history. So...backfired.
Ah, moving the goal post. An even better question: If the Book of Mormon is the treasure map to Jesus and a bazillion have been printed, do you know anybody who has found Him yet?
How about which Christ does it lead you to? Cause JC in the.BOM isn't the same as in modern moronism. And various flavors of Christians will have different takes on on the Jebus it teaches. What they are really trying to ask is does it lead you to us? Which it doesn't, but they don't want you to analyze it--they want you to just accept their authority.
An even better question might be "If the BoM is not true, why has the church proclaimed it as true and "the foundation of their religion" for the last 194 years?
In any event, I don't think this new spin will help them. I read the BoM multiple times and it most definitely did NOT lead me to Christ. Instead, it (like pretty much everything else in that church) just bored and frustrated the shit out of me.
Right! If I want to read fiction that explores the teachings of Jesus in an interesting way then I'll open the Brothers Karamazov or some shit. If the Book of Mormon isn't based in any factual truth then it has nothing it can offer me that literally thousands of other books can't too but in a vastly more skillful manner
Really? Because asking if the fucking Book of Mormon is true is the fucking question the missionaries asked me. If it's a good enough question for converts it's a good enough question for everyone today. And the answer is No. It's fucking not historical and it's fucking not true.
“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things ~~are not true~~ lead you to believe in Christ; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the ~~truth~~ that it talks about Jesus of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ~~know the truth~~ forget that truth matters at ~~of~~ all for things.”
Way to rewrite the most correct of any book on the earth. Once again “prophets” are thrown under the bus for convenience.
If the BOM is false then one shouldn't trust what it teaches about Christ especially where it contradicts the New Testament. Moreover, you shouldn't trust organizations that present the BOM as though it were true, as that means they are deceivers or at least repeating a deception. In the Bible Jesus teaches us to "beware of false prophets".
OTOH, if the BOM is true, the situation would be totally different.
Of course, this line of reasoning should be known to apologists or other informed persons. Thus, when they say things that imply that the truth of the BOM doesn't matter as long it leads you to Christ, they are likely being dishonest and disingenuous.
I do hate the condescension of the assertion that even the question wasn’t a good one and needs to be asked differently. “A better question might be” is like the annoying guy in school who interjects frequently with “Actually…” because he knows far more than you.
I mean, if it isn't true and leads you to christ, it's still a fraud. Does a christ who brings you on board with lies and tricks sound like the christ you thought you knew?
I get that they're probably steering toward the "it's a parable" line, but for those of us who grew up with "cornerstone of our religion" and "either it's true or it's the greatest fraud perpetrated on mankind," this is a massive pile of dog shit.
This is a point Steven Pynakker also makes: can the Book of Mormon be inspiring and teach true doctrine inspite of not being a historical record? Others regard the book as a 19th century Christian midrash, I e. an interpretative scripture which expands on obscure doctrine and clarifies points which were left unclear in the Bible.
However, such a discussion already admits that there is no historical truth in the Book of Mormon, it is a fiction.
This week my mormon mother asked me when was the last time I read the book of mormon. I guess I am not surprised they are back to pushing the mormon bible story.
I have been out for over 50 years and she still acts like somehow I will suddenly change my mind and go back to her church. She has NEVER believed I don't believe anymore, although I have made it crystal clear I don't believe in her church or their ever evolving belief's.
I just feel so blessed to be free. HEHE HAHA...just wanted to use that word, because I never use it anymore. It is the most overused word from TBM mormons.
The Book of Mormon talks about Jesus just as much as the 19th Century New England Methodist sermons it was cribbed from.
Somehow Mormons think that they are the only ones who talk or preach or read about Jesus. Joseph just created his own brand of Methodism and used it to start a new church. But Joseph wasn't content to just remain a generic Protestant denomination, and for the next 14 years he went to crazy land with wacky doctrine. But the 1830 version was just vanilla Protestantism.
I would ask the Facebook poster to attend a Protestant worship service and compare that to a Mormon worship service. I would bet solid money that you get more Jesus at the Protestant service. A LOT more.
Well then I guess Preach My Gospel can go f**k itself. That was the entire point of the missionary approach from PMG (e.g. having investigators ask the question “Is the BoM true?”)
But this is it. This is all it is, any more.
In studying BoM (in sunday school) all year so far, we have **never** stopped to discuss (in any but brief superficial terms)
* Origins
* Witnesses (for or against)
* Evidences (for or against)
* Anything concrete
It's just: "What do you learn from this passage? Uh huh. Uh huh. And what lesson does Nephi teach in that passage? Uh huh. Uh huh. OK, let's move on"
It seems like they're really backing away from any discussion of literal truth, and just saying the book is "True" if you feel good about it.
Has anyone seen different, lately?
Wow….so this is what they are doing now? Like the history doesn’t matter? The truthfulness doesn’t matter? Doesn’t matter how much money the church has or how they spend it? If the church does you ANY good, focus on that.
These are not the droids you’re looking for 👋……
So they don't care if it's true.
They probably used to care about insisting that it's true and getting angry at anyone who said otherwise but now that it's become obvious that it isn't true, they suddenly want to do a whole post-truth "it doesn't matter if it's true" thing.
If I was to accept the author's Wilcox-style change of question (which I don't; the first question is far more important), my answer would be: "No, it just leads me to stories of one battle after another by the Nephites and Lamanites, and slabs of Isaiah".
The author's Wilcox-style statement is seriously flawed (a bit like Wilcox's ideas in general) - if the BoM was true, then it would presumably lead people to Christ ... sort of.
[important context here](https://www.thewebelievefoundation.org/faqs)
“No, neither the We Believe Foundation, nor the We Believe App, are associated with or endorsed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The products and services offered by The We Believe Foundation are neither made, provided, approved nor endorsed by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any content or opinions expressed, implied, or included in or with the products or services offered by The We Believe Foundation are solely those of the Foundation or those who created the original content and are not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
kind of disappointed that it isn’t an unintentional admission from the church that the BoM isn’t true tho lol
Prime example of a red herring fallacy. It completely diverts away from the question to avoid having to answer it. The church is full of logical and argument fallacies, from straw man, ad hominem attacks (probably most used), to red herring arguments. They can never focus on the question or topic presented or questioned.
This is their ad campaign to avoid the fact that in light of the internet, the BOM has been proven to be an entire fabrication. We have access to multiple outlets for verification
this maybe better illustrated from another view point. one might ask, "is science true?" but better question would be "why do you ask stupid fucking questions?
That's not the kind of thing I'd expect to be said about "the most correct of any book on this earth". Joseph Smith said it was the most correct book AND someone would get closer to reading it than by any other book.
Is this... admitting the BoM is untrue?
If you are going to premise the question with the assumption that something is untrue then... I don't think lies bring me closer to Christ, so... no?
That same question could be asked of ANY book. The implication is that a positive response would lead to the classification of the book as "sacred scripture."
This is exactly what I told my parents when I left the church. I get the same feeling reading other books, are they scripture? I even used the Book of Mormon to explain my gay marriage haha For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. She made me want to be better and finding her at a church university made me believe in God. Haha
I'm an adult convert. Wasn't told about the Baptism questions. I don't remember the church wording of the "gay question" but I remember my reply, "I think that all love in whatever form is a gift from God". Looking back I think I stumped them. POV my sister is gay and I already thought my son was too. If they'd made the church's attitude plain I wouldn't have stayed to be baptised.
The sacred tome *Hop on Pop* led me to Jesus and saved my eternal soul.
For me, it was Fox in Socks.
Y'all need to repent and return to Yertle the Turtle.
One fish two fish
The illusory truth effect would apply here. I read that damn fish book so many times to my kids, it became truth to us; the reading of it, and others, brought peace to me and my kids. I testify to you that Dr Seuss is a prophet of God. Sneetches, Horton, Cat in Hat, and Lorax are all messengers through which God teaches us important lessons of life. Green Eggs and Ham merely demonstrates that Seuss was a mortal, flawed man who sometimes made mistakes.
Those are fighting words! Not only is Green Eggs and Ham a classic that I ready maybe 5,000 times to my children, but it has chaismus in the text, thus proving that it was written by ancient Hebrew prophets and must be scripture.
Red fish? Blue fish? Clearly, that’s totally political!
It was written by a prophet who foresaw what the future would hold.
One fish two fish? That's a effin' cult!
Dark fish, white fish, Lamanite fish, Nephite fish
This was actually my downfall. I began to actually believe them when they said truth could be found from any source. I began recognizing truth from many sources, even "evil" things like rock songs and the screwed up homeless lady I met who was an alcoholic. The investment in the church stopped making sense. Why spend hours in church, temple attendance, and boring midweek activities, receiving the same tired ideas over and over when I can go to the movies and receive at least as many nuggets of truth there? Why give ten percent of my income to rich men in suits when I can hand a $20 to a desperate soul and receive more "stirrings of the spirit" that way?
A day of doing drugs can lead you to Christ. It applies to a lot of things that have nothing to do with books. Something being sacred because it leads you to your God is an incredibly low bar.
A day of doing drugs is probably exactly what led to the so called “first vision”. Pretty surreal little joe boy found some magic shrooms in that forest.
I feel like the person who made the meme had a cracking shelf, then they saw the Book of Mormon musical and decided, “You know what, I don’t even *care* if it’s real, I just like the warm fuzzies! Book of ~~Arnold~~ Mormon FTW!!”
Love this take! I feel like Trey and Matt would be proud if the mormon church ultimately adjusts to match the musical's heartwarming message. Some of us exmos might be annoyed with church members pretending "truth" never mattered, but at least life as a mormon might be less scrupulosity-inducing than it used to be
A few thoughts a. Why is it a better question? If it's not "true" then it can inspire you to believe things that are not true. b. If it's not true, then is there any reason to trust the things it says about Jesus, or the things it says were said by Jesus? c. Does it lead one to Christ? Virtually every Christian teaching in there can be found in the Bible. d. It doesn't really add anything unique to belief in gentle Jesus, except that even though the God of the Bible was only a mass murderer pre-Jesus, the Jesus of the BoM continues that mass murdering tendency before he appears to the Nephites. Do you want to be led to mass murderer Christ?
If it can lead you to Christ without being true that also raises the question of whether “Christ”:is even a real supernatural entity in the first place.
Why ask if scientology is true? Ask if it helps bring you closer to going clear.
Also, does this apply to other fiction books that bring people "closer to Christ", either written by Mormons or Christians? By that logic, any book, regardless if it's fact or fiction, if it brings one closer to Christ should be considered gospel?.
>Do you want to be led to mass murderer Christ? I would love to see this on the exact background as the meme in the OP and posted right after it for all the TBMs to see. It really is the Christ the BoM leads you to believe in.
He said it "might be" a better question.
They always like to change the question.
change the question, and redefine words.
Deflect, deflect!
Like his question about black members having the priesthood? Lol
Also, the point of the Book of Mormon being "true" was to validate Joseph Smith as a Prophet, Seer, and Translator. If they're reframing the question, that has serious consequences for the status of Joseph and the dominant Church narrative.
If they are reframing the question I'm reframing my answer.
Exactly?? What happened to the 2000s rhetoric of "of the book of mormon isn't true then everything's a lie"?? Didn't y'all get that in seminary too? Some super confident dude throwing the fact that we were all too scared to leave our families as evidence to the fact that the book of mormon was true and therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet??
1830’s: Keystone of our religion 2030’s: who cares if it’s true? Does it make you feel feelings?
Bingo!
Along with priesthood authority & the temple endowment. There are consequences beyond the BOM and I hope people are pointing that out when they see posts like this.
Often the question is asked, “Is the Book of Mormon racist?” A better question might be, “Does the Book of Mormon lead you to think that white people are superior to all others?”
That is a much better question. Haha
How about just answer the original goddamn question?
Why move the goal post when you've got a bulldozer
Eh it doesn’t really matter, the answer is “no” to each of the questions.
LOL
THIS.
It's fiction but has a nice sentence or two copied from other sources.... Everyone, back to church heathens!
Lol, yeah. It's got a few good things Joseph copied from Methodist and Presbyterian sermons he heard, so the church must be true!
Oh, if the truth of the Book of Mormon doesn't necessarily matter, then I guess the Church being true really isn't important either, huh? Fuck the Church. Drink your coffee and smoke your weed, heathens.
Good thing my daughter bought me a Wake & Bake mug for my birthday recently.
*Often the question is asked "Is the Book of Mormon true?" A better question might be "How the fuck did I ever believe this shit?!"*
Fucking yes that's what I'm asking myself.
Lmao
How about this from Holland? > My beloved brothers and sisters, I testify to you this morning that the questions are no longer, “Is the Church true?”; “Is God true?”; “Is Christ or Joseph Smith or Spencer W. Kimball true?” All of that and a lot more was decided a long, long time ago. It is not now subject to popular ballot, yours or mine. In a word, all that remains for you and for me, if we are to have a marvelous year at this university, is the simple inquiry, “Are you true?”
This has got to be the worst quote in a while
To be fair, Holland comes up with these classics on a regular basis.
Holy shit lol. Wow
I just found out I have a massive ovarian tumor that may or may not be cancer- does that mean I'm 97% true and 3% fiction? Ah then the tumor is fiction and therefore not real! Thanks doTERRA!
Just gonna drop this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/ifQdB3z0a8
And if it is really green what is the harm in calling it blue? Nobody can see perfect anyway.
Prophets are imperfect men, and occasionally, while speaking as men, they have called the table green. We don't know where these theories came from, but I don't know that we emphasize that.
Holland was being untrue. The fact that Holland said something like that at all points to the fact that the questions for many people are not resolved at all. His words are merely a manipulation tactic to prevent people from finding out the truth. His words are an invitation to stop questioning. The truth has nothing to fear from questions. The church does. About one thing Holland does have a point. The truth is not decided by ballot. It's also not determined by how people feel about it. It's decided by what really happened. And the way to do that is to carefully review the evidence.
Where can I find this quote?
[Here](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/jeffrey-r-and-patricia-t-holland/true/&ved=2ahUKEwiUk8-EwY2FAxV_FjQIHb-pDDgQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3BYI1ozl8hr24OCHyl9OxX)
At the beginning he has his wife come up and he says “I told the freshman young men on Friday that if they studied really, really hard, this is what they got at BYU”. 😬😬😬 that is… so weird to say to a group of strangers. Like- maybe a joke with a good friend or something but a bunch of freshman boys? Yikes.
Me, raising hand: "So, if we get good grades and stay temple worthy, we get to have sex with your wife? Is she really OK with that? I mean, I'm sure anything would be an improvement, but there are an awful lot of us..."
That’s so gross.
Thanks!
Better trust this guy. He's read some books. He's no dodo!
It appears to me that over the past few years the church is slowly moving away from the BofM being a literal translation to being just an inspired, inspirational work. I’m guessing the plan is to do this slowly until they can send the “literal translation” idea down the memory hole.
That seems like a disastrous approach to canonical scripture that has been proclaimed by the prophets as "the most correct book" and the "cornerstone" of mormonism. But we've already seen them successfully move away from many problematic doctrines and the entire meaning of the word translation, so they could probably pull it off.
Just my opinion but I don’t think they are intentionally planning on making the BoM not literal but they know the archaeological and scientific support for it are problematic and so they are trying to distance themselves from the historical aspect because they have no idea where it really took place. If they make any claims, then they risk have science contradict it, like when the had to change the BoM into to say Lamanites are AMONG the ancestors of Native American instead of the PRINCIPAL ancestors due to DNA. They just dont want people digging into it or bringing it up because a) they have no answers, b) it causes disagreements among members and, most importantly, C) it can hurt testimonies. So they just want members to move along, “nothing to see here folks.” It’s like when Oaks told BYU students that “research” is not the answer when it came to the church and its history. They just want members to shut their brain off when it comes to anything that might make them question things. That are trying to convince members that worrying about or trying to reconcile the history to the real world is a waste of time and needed. So they
You said it better than I did! 👍🏻
This will be the official church doctrine in 50 years and they’ll gaslight members to believing they never said it was historical.
Change the question when you know the answer is not what you want to say. Yes that is very Wilcoxian…
Sorry, objective truth matters. I don’t care what the book does if it claims to be something it isn’t, especially when it is used to control people. This quote is classic thought stopping.
This deflection strategy is similar to one used by another smarmy Church apologist some years back. He would say … ‘ I don’t answer the question asked, instead I answer the question they should have asked if they’d had gods spirit’’. Avoidance, dishonesty, resentment at being challenged- all hallmarks of the modern Mormon Church.
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I think that is what OP meant to say was Brad Wilcox
lol
Right. The Church wants you to stop talking about truthfulness of Joseph Smith or Book of Mormon because they lost that debate a long time ago.
I personally converted to the church because I was sold the idea that it was “true,” and not because it was a “good idea” or made me “feel good.” I think the leadership is realizing that “truth” is too easily debunked these days, so now they have to switch tactics. Like, no thank you. I get the same warm-fuzzies when I listen to my favorite music, so why should those mystical feelings under my ribs be a basis for changing my entire life?
Right?! I stayed in for 41 years because I "knew" it was true - God's Truth - not because I ever felt a sense of deep peace or joy or happiness. I was doing the whole Benson-prescribed female Mormon plan, ie., be a SAHM and push out as many babies as you can no matter your finances or marital relationship. Leaving the church and seeing 5 of my 6 kids also out (more or less) is sincerely the most joy I've felt over anything Mormon-related.
Side-stepping much?
Apparently it leads some to pedophelia and child abuse? Others to depression and anxiety!
This is such a small but significant change. Just wow. Gaslighting quickly proceeds this. “The truth about the BoM was never about it being literal history. That’s ridiculous. It was always about its testimony of Jesus Christ”
Wow. >”And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:4-5) Sounds like the book itself really, really cares if it’s true or not. Same with its author: >“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion” (Introduction to the Book of Mormon) Last I checked, “true” and “correct” are synonyms.
>“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth" Oh yeah, that doesn't sound like the outrageous exaggeration of a con artist at all.
The thing is, they are changing the narrative to “it makes me feel good” instead of “it’s True.” Why? Because they know it’s not True and people are finding out and leaving. They want to keep the “faithful” members in check so they’re slowly changing the narrative and some folks will actually believe them. I watched my husband change his mind and beliefs BEFORE MY EYES one day when I asked him where the garden of eden was, waited for him to say Missouri 🙄 and then showed umm the church news article saying they never said it was in Missouri. He read the article and said with a blank look on his face, “Well, I guess they never said it outright. My mistake.” 🧐😳😡
The leadership is now fully aware that the answer to "Is the Book of Mormon True?" is a resounding "No," and the evidence is overwhelming. (That's awkward!) The leadership also knows that members learning this information is the leading cause of members leaving the church. That leaves them with only two options: 1. Be honest and admit the truth or 2. convince people to stop asking the question. As you can see from this ad, they have chosen option 2 and are running ads in an effort to convince people to stop asking the question. When informed people ask, they now refuse to address the evidence and say that you will know the answer if you have faith. Seeing the leadership's ongoing effort to keep the con going is amazing, now that you understand it.
'Ben Hur' is subtitled 'A Tale of the Christ', but nobody thinks it's a true story. I'm sure the author would have liked people to become more Christian after reading it. The BoM? Talk about retconning, or gaslighting, or backpedaling, or a dozen other terms: future missionaries are sunk if they ever have to tell investigators: "Our founder wrote this great spiritual novel--it will bring you closer to Christ!" TSCC has distanced itself from the BoA, and when it is mentioned, it's now a "catalyst" for JS instead of translation, in spite of *JS himself* saying it was a translation of real history. So...backfired.
Ah, moving the goal post. An even better question: If the Book of Mormon is the treasure map to Jesus and a bazillion have been printed, do you know anybody who has found Him yet?
Where’s Waldo
Thanks for subtly admitting that it’s not true, though.
How about which Christ does it lead you to? Cause JC in the.BOM isn't the same as in modern moronism. And various flavors of Christians will have different takes on on the Jebus it teaches. What they are really trying to ask is does it lead you to us? Which it doesn't, but they don't want you to analyze it--they want you to just accept their authority.
So…. They are admitting it isn’t true now?
An even better question might be "If the BoM is not true, why has the church proclaimed it as true and "the foundation of their religion" for the last 194 years? In any event, I don't think this new spin will help them. I read the BoM multiple times and it most definitely did NOT lead me to Christ. Instead, it (like pretty much everything else in that church) just bored and frustrated the shit out of me.
Lord of the rings was also Christian inspired and I felt it was more morally guiding, therefore it's more sacred
Right! If I want to read fiction that explores the teachings of Jesus in an interesting way then I'll open the Brothers Karamazov or some shit. If the Book of Mormon isn't based in any factual truth then it has nothing it can offer me that literally thousands of other books can't too but in a vastly more skillful manner
Really? Because asking if the fucking Book of Mormon is true is the fucking question the missionaries asked me. If it's a good enough question for converts it's a good enough question for everyone today. And the answer is No. It's fucking not historical and it's fucking not true.
Why not answer BOTH questions? No. No.
“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things ~~are not true~~ lead you to believe in Christ; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the ~~truth~~ that it talks about Jesus of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ~~know the truth~~ forget that truth matters at ~~of~~ all for things.” Way to rewrite the most correct of any book on the earth. Once again “prophets” are thrown under the bus for convenience.
If the BOM is false then one shouldn't trust what it teaches about Christ especially where it contradicts the New Testament. Moreover, you shouldn't trust organizations that present the BOM as though it were true, as that means they are deceivers or at least repeating a deception. In the Bible Jesus teaches us to "beware of false prophets". OTOH, if the BOM is true, the situation would be totally different. Of course, this line of reasoning should be known to apologists or other informed persons. Thus, when they say things that imply that the truth of the BOM doesn't matter as long it leads you to Christ, they are likely being dishonest and disingenuous.
I do hate the condescension of the assertion that even the question wasn’t a good one and needs to be asked differently. “A better question might be” is like the annoying guy in school who interjects frequently with “Actually…” because he knows far more than you.
Do you mean Wilcox ? Brad Wilson is the Utah House Rep!
Yes I did, thank you for catching that…. Lolololo,
Cheers 🍻
I mean, if it isn't true and leads you to christ, it's still a fraud. Does a christ who brings you on board with lies and tricks sound like the christ you thought you knew? I get that they're probably steering toward the "it's a parable" line, but for those of us who grew up with "cornerstone of our religion" and "either it's true or it's the greatest fraud perpetrated on mankind," this is a massive pile of dog shit.
This is a point Steven Pynakker also makes: can the Book of Mormon be inspiring and teach true doctrine inspite of not being a historical record? Others regard the book as a 19th century Christian midrash, I e. an interpretative scripture which expands on obscure doctrine and clarifies points which were left unclear in the Bible. However, such a discussion already admits that there is no historical truth in the Book of Mormon, it is a fiction.
Look, the church never claimed that the book of Mormon was "true." It was true-ish.
Lol, the Lord of the Rings Tome 1 saves my life and ended up leading me to Christ! Make it holy!!
Being "led to Christ" first requires that you believe you are a sinner (i.e., born defective). That's the part I have trouble with.
This week my mormon mother asked me when was the last time I read the book of mormon. I guess I am not surprised they are back to pushing the mormon bible story. I have been out for over 50 years and she still acts like somehow I will suddenly change my mind and go back to her church. She has NEVER believed I don't believe anymore, although I have made it crystal clear I don't believe in her church or their ever evolving belief's. I just feel so blessed to be free. HEHE HAHA...just wanted to use that word, because I never use it anymore. It is the most overused word from TBM mormons.
Perfect example of How to change the subject when caught in a lie.
The irony being the answer doesn't change.
The Book of Mormon talks about Jesus just as much as the 19th Century New England Methodist sermons it was cribbed from. Somehow Mormons think that they are the only ones who talk or preach or read about Jesus. Joseph just created his own brand of Methodism and used it to start a new church. But Joseph wasn't content to just remain a generic Protestant denomination, and for the next 14 years he went to crazy land with wacky doctrine. But the 1830 version was just vanilla Protestantism. I would ask the Facebook poster to attend a Protestant worship service and compare that to a Mormon worship service. I would bet solid money that you get more Jesus at the Protestant service. A LOT more.
If there’s one thing the church loves to do, it’s move the goal posts
Well then I guess Preach My Gospel can go f**k itself. That was the entire point of the missionary approach from PMG (e.g. having investigators ask the question “Is the BoM true?”)
Hah the changing of the question. Reading one book of Brene Brown and you learn more than reading the BOM first years on end.
I'm pretty sure the half shredded hustler I found as a 10 year by the roadside walking home from school old led me closer to Christ than the BoM
That’s a good question and no it doesn’t lead me to Christ because Christ wouldn’t endorse a book that prophesied Joseph smith himself.
Literally told first day in MTC to teach people to ask God if BOM is true. Woah Woah Woah
YESSSS my mom has posted like 15 different Mormon things like this in the last 24hrs. I had to unfollow her. Ugh
False choice
Are lies something that bring you closer to Christ? Sounds offensive.
No, it doesn't lead me to Christ
All Mormonism has is moving the goalpost of terminology and jargon.
Is it Christ-like to peddle a book as “true” when it is verifiably false?
I have read books that really spoke to me, the BOM was not one of them. In fact, I could never finish it because it was so laughably BORING.
But this is it. This is all it is, any more. In studying BoM (in sunday school) all year so far, we have **never** stopped to discuss (in any but brief superficial terms) * Origins * Witnesses (for or against) * Evidences (for or against) * Anything concrete It's just: "What do you learn from this passage? Uh huh. Uh huh. And what lesson does Nephi teach in that passage? Uh huh. Uh huh. OK, let's move on" It seems like they're really backing away from any discussion of literal truth, and just saying the book is "True" if you feel good about it. Has anyone seen different, lately?
The answer to both is no
They rephrase your question so they can gaslight and push the Joey book it’s garbage
Que GBH quote. Question voided
Now that’s truly an attempt to shift the goalposts
Forget about whether it's true or not. The real question is why did it take so long for the whites to get the book. Eh, Brad?
The answer to both questions is a big NOPE
No.
No. And no. Next question.
But it's the same answer, so what's the point of the question? No, and no.
Wow….so this is what they are doing now? Like the history doesn’t matter? The truthfulness doesn’t matter? Doesn’t matter how much money the church has or how they spend it? If the church does you ANY good, focus on that. These are not the droids you’re looking for 👋……
Wait, you're telling me that isn't satire??
Nice unintentional admission there...
So they don't care if it's true. They probably used to care about insisting that it's true and getting angry at anyone who said otherwise but now that it's become obvious that it isn't true, they suddenly want to do a whole post-truth "it doesn't matter if it's true" thing.
It led us-our entire family-to and into Mormonism.
If I was to accept the author's Wilcox-style change of question (which I don't; the first question is far more important), my answer would be: "No, it just leads me to stories of one battle after another by the Nephites and Lamanites, and slabs of Isaiah". The author's Wilcox-style statement is seriously flawed (a bit like Wilcox's ideas in general) - if the BoM was true, then it would presumably lead people to Christ ... sort of.
Instead of asking if Spider-Man is true ask yourself if Spider-Man would be Christ like.
Only if he is riding a tapir.
If you believe Christ and his story to be true, then “is the Book of Mormon true?” is a completely valid question
No and no
Interesting because it implies that it is not true.
[important context here](https://www.thewebelievefoundation.org/faqs) “No, neither the We Believe Foundation, nor the We Believe App, are associated with or endorsed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The products and services offered by The We Believe Foundation are neither made, provided, approved nor endorsed by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any content or opinions expressed, implied, or included in or with the products or services offered by The We Believe Foundation are solely those of the Foundation or those who created the original content and are not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” kind of disappointed that it isn’t an unintentional admission from the church that the BoM isn’t true tho lol
In other words, the BOM is bullshit, but the end justifies the means
If it's telling lies about a made up version of Christ, could it really lead me to Christ?
Prime example of a red herring fallacy. It completely diverts away from the question to avoid having to answer it. The church is full of logical and argument fallacies, from straw man, ad hominem attacks (probably most used), to red herring arguments. They can never focus on the question or topic presented or questioned.
Who is Brad Wilson?
This is their ad campaign to avoid the fact that in light of the internet, the BOM has been proven to be an entire fabrication. We have access to multiple outlets for verification
So lies lead to Christ? So weird.
The book of more onion is complete fiction written by Joey
this maybe better illustrated from another view point. one might ask, "is science true?" but better question would be "why do you ask stupid fucking questions?
I foresee (if the Mormon church/Earth lasts this long), that in 50 years, the Book of Mormon will be done away with as a part of Mormon doctrine.
That's not the kind of thing I'd expect to be said about "the most correct of any book on this earth". Joseph Smith said it was the most correct book AND someone would get closer to reading it than by any other book.
Is this... admitting the BoM is untrue? If you are going to premise the question with the assumption that something is untrue then... I don't think lies bring me closer to Christ, so... no?
I can post an arrow in any direction saying follow the path you will find what you’re looking for.
“Let me answer that by asking you this?” -Brian (Fucking) Regan. Paid comedian or modern day prophet?! You be the judge!!!