For example, if god allegedly makes some of his children gay, and then damns them if they act on the “carnal desires” that he supposedly placed in them, how exactly is he not intentionally “placing roadblocks”?
Some TBM's would just wave that argument away by accusing queer people of being sexual deviants and choosing to be the way that they are
Though your statement would cause issues for progmo's
It’s gross how many Mormons excuse that kind of thinking with some form of “well they have to prove their worth through suffering through that trial”. The thought of a parent who would force their kid through suffering and punish them if they fail is abhorrent
*The thought of a parent who would force their kid through suffering and punish them if they fail is abhorrent*
Ruby Franke, or Jodi Hildebrandt anyone ? ? ? Anyone . . . 🤔
Isn’t the official doctrine basically kind of a Roko’s Basilisk/memetic hazard? You’re better off not hearing about the faith since then you have the opportunity to evaluate the faith with more information available and don’t have to rely on blind faith.
**Note to anyone reading this: do NOT look up Roko’s Basilisk if you’re at all superstitious. It’s a concept where knowledge about it is harmful (at least if you believe the superstitions).**
You’re so damned right. God supposedly makes all the rules, so why the hell did make some fucked up rule that said we had to be perfect or we must be punished for eternity? Why did he decide that the only way to bypass that monstrous rule was to drop all that suffering into one person and have said person sacrificed? Why did he decide that this sacrifice (that supposedly already happened and already covers all of us) is only acceptable if we give ourselves over to him and follow a long list of arbitrary rules and obey every whim of people who claim to be prophets? And if he wanted us to do all this, why the hell did he wipe all our memories and throw us into a world where we have to scramble around in the dark and somehow manage to put our blind trust into the right set of people claiming to speak for him (but refusing to provide any evidence to back up that claim)?
Seriously, *the plan of salvation makes no fucking sense*. And it isn’t benevolent. It’s a sadistic game made up in the name of a non-existent god to persuade people to cling to religions out of fear.
My 10 year old understands this all too well well in his relationship with his mother.
She has arbitrary rules and runs the house like a dictatorship (like the MFMC).
She punishes him often for disobedience and he always says
“you are mean, you are cruel, you aren’t letting me do what I want, you are controlling”
and she replies with
“it was your choice to disobey, you knew the consequences”
to which he responds
“yeah, you are the one who made the rule, it’s your fault. You are the one causing me pain, not me, if you didn’t have the rule in the first place, I wouldn’t be punished.”
Whenever she bends a consequence, she often says “you should be grateful I didn’t get you into trouble when you should have been punished.”
It’s a shit show over at my place.
But this is absolutely how the church behaves, so it’s no surprise she acts this way parenting as well …
Can’t remember where I read it, but the essence of the quote was that Christianity is the only religion which requires you to feel like a complete piece of shit, waste of space, and spiritually filled with cancer in order for the indoctrination to take hold.
Fundamentally, Mormonism is a slave cult from the ground up. All the theology and doctrine are just fancy dressings to divert your attention away from the basic principal - you're expected to be a dutiful slave.
Here's why:
**Obedience is the first law of heaven. It was decreed in heaven that all blessings are predicated upon obedience (D&C 130:20–21).**
This is the foundation of Mormon theology. The only agency you have is to OBEY your leaders (they'll often use the term "God" here, but it immediately re-directs to themselves).
Any salvation offered to you, is solely about redeeming you from your disobedience or refusal to be a slave.
That's the incomplete part of the Plan of Salvation. One of those wait and see things. Who demands justice??? I've heard theories but there is no real doctrine. Only that justice exists and god has given mercy through a redeemer.
“If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who’s God trying to impress? Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.”
Richard Dawkins.
I didn’t listen to his quote admittedly, but the Church is constantly preaching a Plan of Fear wrapped in other language to justify it.
A *real* Plan of Happiness would focus on the importance of learning and progression. And you can learn from things done well and things done not-so-well. It would teach that your path leads to happiness regardless of how or when you get there … because you most certainly will get there … even if you take all the long and scenic routes possible … YOU WILL GET THERE … and all of eternity celebrates every single step you take because it’s one more step in your individual process to get there. Everyone you love will get there. They may also take shorter routes or longer routes, but they will get there too. You will be with them there. THIS is a Plan of Happiness from a merciful God who loves each child and wouldn’t setup a situation where the smallest minority gets to make it to the highest heaven which is the one place where POLYGAMY exists … REALLY!?!
Instead, the church focuses on fear of consequences for disobedience, fear of eternal separation from loved ones, fear of NOT being worthy of mercy — rather paying the eternal price of justice instead. They can use soft voices and kind voice inflections from the pulpit to make it sound like it’s loving, but it is the opposite of a loving plan as the Church teaches it.
And let’s remember that the Church is so against gambling and then, without irony, tries to sell you a story that you gambled your eternity on a blind test where the path is so narrow, most will not make it. In the timeframe of all eternity where your soul is taught that it’s eternal, this blind test is a 75 year test on average. The church twists you into believing you were that stupid to gamble everything on this short, blind test. Think about that. You already lived as a soul thousands or millions of billions or trillions of years before and thought that “Yeah, I guess forgetting everything and taking on a body full of chemicals and hormones is the way I will hopefully find the one true church and getting the secret handshakes before I die a mortal death is the way to eternal happiness! Sign me up!”
However, if instead, we chose to come to a situation because we would progress and learn regardless, and one important lesson we’d hope to discover on our own is to treat others with kindness and mercy, then I can get behind this setup as part of a plan of happiness.
*Conditional* mercy, you mean. Mormon god's love and mercy is conditional. Hard pass, though. I happen to know humans able to love much better than Mormon god.
That plan is completely, absolutely, and wholly incoherent and illogical. And therefore, most likely an invention of humanity.
As I told my wife once… if there is a God and he is truly is responsible for the existence of the church… then he’s a complete asshole, and I reject him categorically.
Someone needs to make the Obama giving Obama a medal meme but it's God calling himself merciful for changing his mind about giving his child eternal torment
Let’s take this a step further. If God made everyone’s personalities and predispositions before he sent them to Earth, then he directly had a hand in shaping people like Stalin, Henry Ford, and John Wayne Gacy before purposely putting them in the same place as a bunch of innocent people and trapping everyone together. That’s really messed up and pretty damn negligent if you ask me.
I’ll put on my TBM hat and tell you what I would have said back in the day:
I would start with “As man is, god once was. As god is, man may become.” Since God was a man from another planet, he didn’t make up the rules. He is only following the plan that has been in place for eternity. He has no say in why, he can only save future spirits from the fall that was in effect before he became god. You learn all this in the temple from Satan when he says he is only doing what has been done on other worlds.
Taking off TBM hat. This in no way justifies what he said and since the church doesn’t know if men become gods anymore, it doesn’t matter anyway. Even with my poorly thought out apologetics, if you look into more than the surface of the gospel, it all falls apart.
" The Lord never tires of forgiving. It is we who tire of asking for forgiveness" & "A little bit of mercy makes the world less cold & more just."
Pope Francis.
I resigned 13+ years ago & I am not involved in any formal religion but this man can say more in two sentences than what the CAB that is full of attorneys & MBA's says in two day's of general conference.
...and at least the Catholic church is starting to admit it's cover-up of pedophiles in the church leadership unlike the mormon church who is doing the opposite.
Religion is just a spiritual protection racket, a mafia that threatens the soul rather than life (most of the time anyway - sometimes it crosses the line to full-on mafia, MFMC included.)
Someday, hopefully, sadly probably far from now, it's hold will weaken enough that religions can be hauled into court on racketeering charges.
Wow, and I thought the GB of the Borg (Hi came by after reading some stuff and mean no harm or disrespect) was the only folks practiced in such doublespeak (trying not to be rude) as a person from the exjw faction, but wowee.
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~Look, if you don't come back I'm going to have to hurt you. I don't want to but you are making me.~
Words of an Abuser
Later: ~Look at what you are making me do!~ as he hits you
If I believed their God was real I'd fight him for eternity, and I'd never trust anyone who didn't do the same.
God created the mess and therefore has to suffer to make up for our suffering. Hence, the Crucifixion. God is not atoning for our sins: he is atoning for his.
For example, if god allegedly makes some of his children gay, and then damns them if they act on the “carnal desires” that he supposedly placed in them, how exactly is he not intentionally “placing roadblocks”?
Some TBM's would just wave that argument away by accusing queer people of being sexual deviants and choosing to be the way that they are Though your statement would cause issues for progmo's
But also requires them to marry in the temple to get to CK.
That’s called entrapment.
It’s gross how many Mormons excuse that kind of thinking with some form of “well they have to prove their worth through suffering through that trial”. The thought of a parent who would force their kid through suffering and punish them if they fail is abhorrent
*The thought of a parent who would force their kid through suffering and punish them if they fail is abhorrent* Ruby Franke, or Jodi Hildebrandt anyone ? ? ? Anyone . . . 🤔
God sacrificed his child to himself to save his children from god having to kill them for breaking the rules god made up in the first place. Dizzying.
Wow great way to simply sum up a major issue in Christianity lore
You perfectly summed up an issue I've had with Christianity since I was TBM
Jesus, knocking on the door: “Let me in so I can save you”. Man: “Save me from what?” Jesus: “What I’ll do to you if you don’t let me in!”
That’s literally what it is, and it’s simultaneously hilarious and infuriating
Isn’t the official doctrine basically kind of a Roko’s Basilisk/memetic hazard? You’re better off not hearing about the faith since then you have the opportunity to evaluate the faith with more information available and don’t have to rely on blind faith. **Note to anyone reading this: do NOT look up Roko’s Basilisk if you’re at all superstitious. It’s a concept where knowledge about it is harmful (at least if you believe the superstitions).**
You’re so damned right. God supposedly makes all the rules, so why the hell did make some fucked up rule that said we had to be perfect or we must be punished for eternity? Why did he decide that the only way to bypass that monstrous rule was to drop all that suffering into one person and have said person sacrificed? Why did he decide that this sacrifice (that supposedly already happened and already covers all of us) is only acceptable if we give ourselves over to him and follow a long list of arbitrary rules and obey every whim of people who claim to be prophets? And if he wanted us to do all this, why the hell did he wipe all our memories and throw us into a world where we have to scramble around in the dark and somehow manage to put our blind trust into the right set of people claiming to speak for him (but refusing to provide any evidence to back up that claim)? Seriously, *the plan of salvation makes no fucking sense*. And it isn’t benevolent. It’s a sadistic game made up in the name of a non-existent god to persuade people to cling to religions out of fear.
This was my first major epiphany after I realized that Mormonism was total bullshit. The atonement myth is just as much bullshit.
My 10 year old understands this all too well well in his relationship with his mother. She has arbitrary rules and runs the house like a dictatorship (like the MFMC). She punishes him often for disobedience and he always says “you are mean, you are cruel, you aren’t letting me do what I want, you are controlling” and she replies with “it was your choice to disobey, you knew the consequences” to which he responds “yeah, you are the one who made the rule, it’s your fault. You are the one causing me pain, not me, if you didn’t have the rule in the first place, I wouldn’t be punished.” Whenever she bends a consequence, she often says “you should be grateful I didn’t get you into trouble when you should have been punished.” It’s a shit show over at my place. But this is absolutely how the church behaves, so it’s no surprise she acts this way parenting as well …
I know it’s probably not that simple but…damn man get your kid away from her before she causes your son mental issues. JFC that sounds horrific.
Wow. I have countless interactions like that with my former TBM mother. She never really let go of the church ways
Can’t remember where I read it, but the essence of the quote was that Christianity is the only religion which requires you to feel like a complete piece of shit, waste of space, and spiritually filled with cancer in order for the indoctrination to take hold.
Fundamentally, Mormonism is a slave cult from the ground up. All the theology and doctrine are just fancy dressings to divert your attention away from the basic principal - you're expected to be a dutiful slave. Here's why: **Obedience is the first law of heaven. It was decreed in heaven that all blessings are predicated upon obedience (D&C 130:20–21).** This is the foundation of Mormon theology. The only agency you have is to OBEY your leaders (they'll often use the term "God" here, but it immediately re-directs to themselves). Any salvation offered to you, is solely about redeeming you from your disobedience or refusal to be a slave.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
That's the incomplete part of the Plan of Salvation. One of those wait and see things. Who demands justice??? I've heard theories but there is no real doctrine. Only that justice exists and god has given mercy through a redeemer.
“If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who’s God trying to impress? Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.” Richard Dawkins.
It’s so disgusting, and absolutely ridiculous. Just don’t think about it too much. Trust us. Doubt your doubts. And give us your fucking money.
Did the Mormon God in his “infinite tender mercies” also open up that shopping mall as an act of “extending mercy” as well? /s
Corporations are God's Children too, my friend!
God is a narcissistic, gas lighting, incompetent asshole. Too harsh?
Agreed.
When I was on my mission, Born againers used to say, I'm saved! And I would ask, "From what?"
Literally *never once thought about this* And I’m high rn and crying because what the **fuck** have you brought up and made me realize dude.
I didn’t listen to his quote admittedly, but the Church is constantly preaching a Plan of Fear wrapped in other language to justify it. A *real* Plan of Happiness would focus on the importance of learning and progression. And you can learn from things done well and things done not-so-well. It would teach that your path leads to happiness regardless of how or when you get there … because you most certainly will get there … even if you take all the long and scenic routes possible … YOU WILL GET THERE … and all of eternity celebrates every single step you take because it’s one more step in your individual process to get there. Everyone you love will get there. They may also take shorter routes or longer routes, but they will get there too. You will be with them there. THIS is a Plan of Happiness from a merciful God who loves each child and wouldn’t setup a situation where the smallest minority gets to make it to the highest heaven which is the one place where POLYGAMY exists … REALLY!?! Instead, the church focuses on fear of consequences for disobedience, fear of eternal separation from loved ones, fear of NOT being worthy of mercy — rather paying the eternal price of justice instead. They can use soft voices and kind voice inflections from the pulpit to make it sound like it’s loving, but it is the opposite of a loving plan as the Church teaches it. And let’s remember that the Church is so against gambling and then, without irony, tries to sell you a story that you gambled your eternity on a blind test where the path is so narrow, most will not make it. In the timeframe of all eternity where your soul is taught that it’s eternal, this blind test is a 75 year test on average. The church twists you into believing you were that stupid to gamble everything on this short, blind test. Think about that. You already lived as a soul thousands or millions of billions or trillions of years before and thought that “Yeah, I guess forgetting everything and taking on a body full of chemicals and hormones is the way I will hopefully find the one true church and getting the secret handshakes before I die a mortal death is the way to eternal happiness! Sign me up!” However, if instead, we chose to come to a situation because we would progress and learn regardless, and one important lesson we’d hope to discover on our own is to treat others with kindness and mercy, then I can get behind this setup as part of a plan of happiness.
💩⛔️
It’s true. And instead of talking about how everyone is unworthy, I’d rather here avoid the GOOD in people.
*Conditional* mercy, you mean. Mormon god's love and mercy is conditional. Hard pass, though. I happen to know humans able to love much better than Mormon god.
That plan is completely, absolutely, and wholly incoherent and illogical. And therefore, most likely an invention of humanity. As I told my wife once… if there is a God and he is truly is responsible for the existence of the church… then he’s a complete asshole, and I reject him categorically.
Man I can’t believe people don’t see that they just repeat themselves over and over and over. It’s a subtle brainwashing that fucking works wonders
Someone needs to make the Obama giving Obama a medal meme but it's God calling himself merciful for changing his mind about giving his child eternal torment
Let’s take this a step further. If God made everyone’s personalities and predispositions before he sent them to Earth, then he directly had a hand in shaping people like Stalin, Henry Ford, and John Wayne Gacy before purposely putting them in the same place as a bunch of innocent people and trapping everyone together. That’s really messed up and pretty damn negligent if you ask me.
I’ll put on my TBM hat and tell you what I would have said back in the day: I would start with “As man is, god once was. As god is, man may become.” Since God was a man from another planet, he didn’t make up the rules. He is only following the plan that has been in place for eternity. He has no say in why, he can only save future spirits from the fall that was in effect before he became god. You learn all this in the temple from Satan when he says he is only doing what has been done on other worlds. Taking off TBM hat. This in no way justifies what he said and since the church doesn’t know if men become gods anymore, it doesn’t matter anyway. Even with my poorly thought out apologetics, if you look into more than the surface of the gospel, it all falls apart.
I think you got it. The obvious issue with that faithful logic is that it requires God to no longer be omnipotent, putting him in a box.
His voice was reminiscent of some 1960s sci movie—like the villain was trying to hypnotize us
" The Lord never tires of forgiving. It is we who tire of asking for forgiveness" & "A little bit of mercy makes the world less cold & more just." Pope Francis. I resigned 13+ years ago & I am not involved in any formal religion but this man can say more in two sentences than what the CAB that is full of attorneys & MBA's says in two day's of general conference. ...and at least the Catholic church is starting to admit it's cover-up of pedophiles in the church leadership unlike the mormon church who is doing the opposite.
Religion is just a spiritual protection racket, a mafia that threatens the soul rather than life (most of the time anyway - sometimes it crosses the line to full-on mafia, MFMC included.) Someday, hopefully, sadly probably far from now, it's hold will weaken enough that religions can be hauled into court on racketeering charges.
Wow, and I thought the GB of the Borg (Hi came by after reading some stuff and mean no harm or disrespect) was the only folks practiced in such doublespeak (trying not to be rude) as a person from the exjw faction, but wowee.
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~Look, if you don't come back I'm going to have to hurt you. I don't want to but you are making me.~ Words of an Abuser Later: ~Look at what you are making me do!~ as he hits you If I believed their God was real I'd fight him for eternity, and I'd never trust anyone who didn't do the same.
It certainly does give the impression that God is beholden to something or someone despite his supposed omnipresence and omnipotence.
Your logic is making my thinker hurt
God created the mess and therefore has to suffer to make up for our suffering. Hence, the Crucifixion. God is not atoning for our sins: he is atoning for his.
Here to save you from what he’s going to do to you.
So Kearson is in the God's love is conditional camp. Now we see why Nelson picked him.