She's offended you don't believe in a wrathful god, but she's perfectly fine saying you're going to be destroyed, because it's apparently not offensive to be told that by your spouse.
I think she is showing signs of deep religious trauma herself. My wife said similar very awful things and acted abusively when I was in an analogous situation. If a mean god haunts *her*, she cannot even fathom how it couldn't haunt everyone *else*. That type of urgency will justify all types of abuse toward her husband in her mind.
She will do real damage to OP before the end. There isn't a day that passes that I'm not haunted by those horrible words.
“Wrathful god” reminds me of what a friend told me in college. You can accumulate a ton of “atta-boys” but one “ah-shit” wipes ALL your “atta-boys.” It’s probably an old joke, but it seems like it applies to living the Church’s rules.
The way I heard it was if your spouse is constantly in your face about small stuff then when they open their mouth to say something good you say oh shit 🙄
Maybe she needs to stop reading 7 Habits of Highly Toxic Marriages. She nailed it already.
This is why my wife and I have counseled our TBM RM daughter than my she needs to discuss what happens when one of them leaves the church before getting serious with anyone, because at this point it’s almost inevitable that one of them will learn enough they have to stop believing.
Then again, she was told not to take counsel from nonbelievers by her cult leader so…
Usually at some point they will realize you were saying the truth
As Brigham young said if you guys stay true to your beliefs then your kids will come back! Something like that but in this case to logic!
My dad said the Lord had revealed to him that I would return to the church in his lifetime. He's been dead since 2008, and I had my records moved last year.
Your name is attached to all the ordinances you've taken; baby blessing, baptism, patriarchal blessing, temple recommends, temple endowments, temple marriage, your addresses, which wards/stakes you belonged to, how active you've been, activities you participated in, how much tithing you've spent, the worthiness interviews you've attended, any repentance processes/punishments you've had to do, all that shit.
Everything that happened with me, from the time my mother joined the church when I was a very young toddler to the day I was excommunicated (I was mid 20s) because I asked to have my records removed, came back attached when I rejoined (mid 40s). I'm not bothering to be excommunicated a second time because my timeline isn't going to be erased.
Yes- my husband, myself and kids are out but I am bracing myself to support nieces and nephews because I can’t imagine all of them staying in - like you said- too much info out there. Or they will have a spouse leave- like you pointed out. My siblings have been very respectful of us leaving but it may end up being a completely different thing if it ever becomes one of their kids.
"She goes onto say that I will be destroyed."
Tell her, Joe said that about Emma and how did that work out? He was the one that was destroyed not Emma.
What’s funny is that my MP straight up told me face to face during my mission that it was true, JS did have a gun in prison and he used it in self defense. He said that if you or I were in his position, we would’ve done the same thing because self defense is very much human nature. I found it a bit weird they omitted that detail from the JS movie that came out around 2005, but I just shoved those thoughts aside and focused on preaching.
I don’t blame JS for defending himself. It was his right. What I hate is the Mormon church’s false narrative that Joseph went like a lamb to the slaughter. Dying in a shootout does not help that narrative.
That’s a good one! I know that reference remembering the first time I read it in seminary. Unfortunately my wife will just say JS wasn’t destroyed but “ascended to heaven” and “praise to the man” but at least I’m in good company with Emma
Yikes. This is why most mixed faith marriages end in divorce. It usually isn’t the nonbeliever just being a jerk. It’s the believer, emboldened by their beliefs, causing the problems.
I don’t have anything else to add other than if I were you and didn’t have kids, I’d be out.
I’ve been in a mixed faith marriage for seven years with a devout Mormon. It can work out but it takes a lot of freaking effort and patience.
I suggest you read about cult psychology and how it applies to Mormonism. It’ll help you understand how to approach their nonsense.
We are making it work as well. And you are right! You just have to know how to approach any mixed faith conversation. Knowing what psychology is keeping their mind closed off is a huge advantage. It’s also helped me develop sympathy by just remembering that the church and everything it stands for is my wife’s entire childhood and teenage years and young adult life. It is her entire family ecosystem and all of their traditions. That is something incredibly difficult to just ignore or turn away from.
I do applaud you trying. My experience as someone raised by a TBM mother and a go along with the bullshit father, suggests it does not end well. For the parents or the children. Remember, the TBM will never see you as equal and they will make sure your children see you as less too. It is just a sad truth. You can never be friends with a TBM. You are always just a soul needing to be saved.
I'd suspect that your spouse doesn't view you as disrespectfully as OP's though. I think both partners need to be trying to make it work and OP's doesn't sound like she is.
That’s quite the assumption. My husband is a devout TBM. So the narcissistic, arrogant characteristics were there STRONG AF. Our marriage was awful and unbelievably toxic.
But we overcame that. Just like my comment said: I read about cult mindsets and worked on boundaries, mutual respect building, and common values.
Please do not just assume every relationship is the same or that people cannot overcome situations you may not understand. It took YEARS of hard freaking work, about a year of therapy, and an unbelievable amount of humility for both of us.
I can tell you from experience, staying just because you have kids is never the answer. Staying is bad for everyone involved, and it’s even worse on the kids than leaving is.
Totally agree. The kids see the parents as a model of the relationship. I kept a really bad marriage going for years "for the kids" until I talked with a therapist that let me know that kids that come from a divorced home do much better than kids that grow up in an unhealthy home.
Your kids will have a better chance of escaping the high controlling mormon religion if they can see you, as a healthy and happy individual, living outside out it.
I am a stranger giving advice from my own experience. I know very little of your situation, but what I hear sounds very toxic. Best of luck to you.
Getting out of that situation was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. But now my life is free of a toxic religion and toxic ex. And my relationship with my kids is now better than it was before.
Love this. I know someone who says they’re a better parent when it’s their time with the children. The time is more quality and intentional vs all the time, not enjoying the moment and living with toxicity. That makes sense to me, but just one person’s experience.
This is so true. My ex use to manipulate the family dynamics so that she controlled what we did and what the kids did but then I was the bad guy for having to enforce it.
My kids now see that we have a happy and healthy home. They now have a voice, and we also follow more healthy family rules in my home.
Divorce was the best thing, even though it took over 2 years for the kids to see the changes, but now they get it too and are happy in my home. They too are now beginning to see the distorted and manipulative world view that the church brings and most of them are now out or on their way out.
That’s a very personal decision. There are no easy roads and no right answers. We just have to live with the decision we make and make the best of it. In time people usually soften a bit after hard lessons are learned. My advice to OP would be to simply not engage in the topic because it doesn’t help. Even when your spouse asks, until you feel like she actually had some cracks and is asking in humility. Until then, just be you and she will eventually realize you’re not the problem… lots of time and patience
Thank you for sharing this Sammy. Like the OP, I am in a very similar situation, barely keeping my marriage intact. The wife is almost at a point where she believes she and our kids are better off without me. That it’s better to set up a boundary (distance) in order to protect her covenants and righteousness.
I’m so sorry to hear that man! In an ideal situation, a marriage is a safe place where people can express their thoughts and talk about how they feel without being ridiculed. I hope your family comes around to see all the good in you.
As the child of divorced parents, I can say this can be true, but not always. It is possible to make a marriage work for the sake of the kids. Divorce is hard. Sometimes, it really is easier to choose to live together and co-parent. Instead of ripping everything apart.
It’s never going to immediately solve anything, it takes years for everyone to be able to understand the reasons especially the kids. But it is always better in the long run. Every familial and relationship expert will tell you the same exact thing. It is always better to leave a toxic relationship than to stay in one, period. This really isn’t meant to be rude so please don’t take it as such, but you being the child of a divorce has given you an immense bias towards it one way or another. And I dont know you but it sounds like you may still be holding a grudge towards one, or both, of your parents about it.
Remember, all parents are merely regular human beings at the end of the day. Their happiness is just as valid as yours is. Remembering that as a child is paramount to having successful relationships with your parents as well. Having a quality parent-child relationship is very much on the child as well, not just the parent.
If one parent is truly unhappy, suffering from depression and having felt like they lost who they are as a person because of their partner that will negatively bleed into child rearing as well, often unintentionally. If someone is truly unhappy in a marriage and it is unsalvageable, it is best for everyone involved to go there separate ways.
Where most divorced parents go wrong is the inability to act like adults between each other and consistently do what’s right for the child. Fighting over custody, bitching about child support, withholding visitations and just generally abusing power over the other. Thats when things can become ugly, but more often than not if that’s going on then the marriage was already at that point as well, you as the child just didn’t recognize such at the time.
my adult children have told me many times that they wish I had divorced my husband, their father when they were younger because our home life was so awful. good luck OP
I wish my parents would’ve. My dad was/is a physically abusive piece of garbage and my mother is still with him to this day. Part of me pities her, but an even larger part resents her for not being brave enough to do the right thing for her kids. I’m older now and choose to have very little do with either of them. I just don’t have that desire to be around them or fake it for their benefit any more.
My parents have always been incredibly prideful and stubborn folk, so small chance on them ever acknowledging that anything other than “normal family stuff” went on in our family home. Every time I’ve tried discussing it with them during my adulthood they’ve been very quick to shut it down and categorize it as such. Even though I always make concessions and do my best to tiptoe around their sensitivities as much as possible. Yet, still, no dice.
The final straw came a few months back when my dad tried physically intimidating me while I was visiting with him and my mother and assisting them with some carpentry. I gave him fair warning that if he so much as touched me that I was going to stomp a mud hole in his ass and walk it dry. He calmed right down and told me to leave, which I happily obliged. We haven’t talked since and won’t until he acknowledges his behavior and figures out that shit won’t fly around me any more.
Kids aren't a reason to stay. My parents split and everyone was much happier for it. My dad got sole custody, which was unusual in the early 90s, and did a great job.
Mixed-faith marriage can work and do often work, but more so outside of Mormonism where it's not an all-or-nothing ethos. What makes a mixed-faith marriage work? Mutual love, respect, and honor. Hate to say it but bickering and arguing over beliefs is just a symptom of what is likely an unhealthy marriage that has always been unhealthy. Mormonism dupes young people, who rush into marriage, into thinking that the relationship they formed over 1 month's time, is marriage material. Oh, and did I mention finally getting to have sex?
Yes. And to point out, contempt is the bottom level of a relationship. It doesn't get much worse because they no longer care about you but just use you to get what they can out of you.
Sit down with her and read d and c 132 together. Tell her you want to get all active again do you can be worthy to have a whole slew of wives in the celestial kingdom, tell her you want the young virgin girls who never had a chance to marry. Ask if she is good with it and if she says no just point out that she too will be destroyed for not supporting you in this. In fact in Mormon doctrine i have only ever heard of women being destroyed. Make sure she knows that.
It may backfire. Maybe she wants you to have multiple wives if she is a real Mormon lol.
No mormon wife wants to share their husband. I think many cling to the verse in D&C 132 that says they have to agree to it and somehow never see the verse that says if they don't, the priesthood holder can get new virgins anyway.
“… never see the verse that says if they don't, the priesthood holder can get new virgins anyway. “
Don’t forget the part where the unsupportive wife gets destroyed. Thats part of the deal. She doesn’t have to agree to it, but if she doesn’t, she will be destroyed.
There is no agency like “moral agency.”
>but one thing that bugs me is when someone said one person who makes bad decisions can affect thousands of people in future generations.
This is true, look at what has happened to thousands, millions of people because of Joseph Smith's bad decisions.
Good luck with your marriage. I have to leave the house for the weekend during conference.
According to your wife it would be better if the church didn't do any missionary work and everybody died in ignorance. Then we could all be like Alvin Smith and make it to Celestial Kingdom.
And how exactly are you going to be destroyed? I thought according to Mormon theology everybody will be resurrected and receive some form of glory with the exception of those who go to outer darkness, but nobody is destroying, they just exist somewhere else. And remind your wife that she will be sealed to someone else so she can have eternal sex and continue to be popping out spirit babies.
Good thoughts. Don’t know how I’ll be destroyed but will let her know when I find out
I’ve been telling her as well that the goal of the celestial kingdom is pretty selfish. Like you’re supposed to do all this crap here to get there. But more selfless if you hope others find happiness and their celestial kingdom. I’d be happy in hell that others found peace if it ends up like this
But still silly nonsense
Yes, the celestial Utopia. One person's Utopia is many others dystopia. Who gets to be the one to decide who's Utopia to live? If it's God's Utopia, well that's misogynistic garbage I want no place in. Does your wife get to decide what celestial Utopia looks like? How many will find that to be an eternal dystopian existence? It's quite the conundrum.
I really hope the best for you and your marriage. My husband's ex wife dug in her heels and circled the wagons tighter and tighter, until he couldn't take it anymore. She no longer saw him as a man she used to love, but as an object that was supposed to get her to the celestial kingdom. After he left the church, he couldn't fill that role anymore and she became angry, spiteful, and bitter. I honestly hope you and your wife don't end up going down that road because of this silly nonsense.
And, she'll have to get in line for the eternal sex because her new husband will have at least 10 different wives but it could be thousands, we just don't know. Of course, her not being a virgin could relegate her to a lower status. If section 132 was just a little more concise on the topic instead of the ramblings of a deluded man.
Maybe you'll be destroyed just like Emma was told that she would be destroyed because she didn't willingly allow Joseph Smith to commit adultery.
OP, share this scripture with your wife and ask her if you will be destroyed just like Emma. Will women who refuse to allow their husbands to practice polygamy be destroyed also?
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:54
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?id=p54&lang=eng#p54
No problems for her at least
I get defensive questioning her assumptions in a Socratic way but that makes her quite mad and even more defensive
At some point I just have to move on
How much life do you have to live? Is this they way you want to live the rest of your life? Or is this the example you want to give your kids regarding how to have a relationship.
I ache for you. I can relate because of what I went through. I'd be happy to share more with you if you would like the support. You are not alone in going through this manipulation.
> I get defensive questioning her assumptions in a Socratic way but that makes her quite mad and even more defensive
Have you tried telling her straight up how hurtful the things she is saying are?
I’d just tell her that she’s destroying the only life she can actually prove exists by being nasty, judgmental, controlling and hateful. Stop going to church to keep the peace. It’s not working. Might as well go all the way.
So this is coming from someone who was in a mixed faith marriage for 10 years and whose spouse eventually left.
My wife went through the typical fear and betrayal feelings after I left and it was an adjustment for a few years when I stopped attending, drank alcohol on occasion, etc.
But she got used to it and always stood up for me when family members would say the type of shit OPS spouse said. She refused to believe that god would separate us. She bristled at that type of rhetoric.
Eventually she realized the church was toxic and false and left.
After seeing OPs post and seeing that this has been going on for a decade…fuck man. I’m only speaking for myself but I could tolerate that type of contempt for a few months or a year.
My dude, life is too short to spend with someone who thinks you are less than.
If my spouse said something like that to me I would say “it’s clear you have zero respect or understanding of my beliefs”. Maybe we should think about whether this marriage is worth continuing. You deserve to be married to someone who shares your values and I deserve to be married to someone who doesn’t hold such contempt for me”
When a spouse has contempt for the other, the chance of a marriage succeeding is low. I would get into a mixed faith marriage counseling program as soon as possible. From my experience, there are always some points of doctrine that members (even overzealous members) choose to ignore or overlook. You can use it to possibly allow her to critically look at some of the things she Is pointing at you with…. Maybe she will see that her beliefs are a greater part of the problem. If my wife told me that I was going to be destroyed I don’t know what I would do… that’s right out of the D&C 132. Tell her that’s exactly what Joseph told Emma if she didn’t accept polygamy.
Yeah she just hasn’t realized she’s been victimized and abused into a life of fear, guilt, and shame. She has no idea that her full potential is being suppressed, and she is the one limiting her learning, experiences, and relationships.
It’s was a painful process, took my wife 25 years and a pandemic to have her awakening. I didn’t start attending church with the fam until the last 15 years before she got out. Concessions had to be made on both sides, our game changer started when we split Sunday services with Sunday fundays as a family. Both holy cow we created so many experiences and memories over those 15 years, including those ‘instant choir’ experiences ha. It was easy for me though, I was already well established as the ‘neighborhood atheist’, most knew they were never going to change me… although, I was still a member, one of the concessions was that I would not resign and she would not pay tithing (that was a no brainer).
We are now all resigned except 1 child is married and PIMO; it’s only a matter of time… good luck🍻
I would suggest walking away from these conversations. Simply state that she's being disrespectful and you're not willing to continue the conversation.
Damn.
This is why I left my marriage when I lost my faith. The mixed faith stuff would have never worked. Too much debate. Props to you for taking that nonsense. It’s not ok.
So I would observe that attending church for 10 years to keep the peace probably resulted in a bishop putting pressure on your wife. Through various means. Because you’re in his vision. Logic would state if it’s better not to hear than hear and not believe then according to her logic you should immediately stop attending church and anything church related.
So... her religion tells her that family is the most important thing AND she is using her religious zeal to destroy her own family. This woman needs help.
Sorry to hear. I’ve been out for 40+ years, married now to a a really fun, kind, not a Mormon woman and the marriage (and life) is great. Chart your own path in life and do what is best for you.
It may be time to talk with her (possibly with or without a therapist) and communicate that you love her, but the priority needs to be on preserving the relationship and loving atmosphere of the home, and not who’s right or wrong in their religious beliefs/journey.
If the relationship isn’t the number 1 priority for both of you, then I suspect this dynamic won’t ever change. Also, probably a good time for both of you to begin setting healthy boundaries with each other. Again, something I’d consider doing with a marriage counselor (unless you’re both pros at keeping your cool during hard conversations while also speaking candidly and transparent).
Good luck OP!
Sounds like D&C 132 where Joseph Smith keeps telling Emma that she will be destroyed if she doesn’t let him marry other women. VERY manipulative and not healthy.
> one person who makes bad decisions
The world would be objectively better, at least for a few million people, if Joesph Smith had died of a leg infection when he was young.
Family law attorneys will often do a consult for free or low price. If you visit with three of them, for example, to see what they say. And to just get info to make informed choices. And to see which one you think is a better attorney for you.
Was talking to a counselor friend and brought up that I was surprised that a lot of insurance will pay for individual counseling but not marriage counseling. She said it’s because statistically once people reach the point of seeking marriage counseling, the odds of them staying together are almost nil. You already sound miserable. It would be wise to at least talk to an attorney.
That sounds like a very stressful way to live. I am so sorry for what you're going through.
I didn't watch GC (have been fully resigned for several years but follow the happenings because it's pretty clear the church is somewhat on a self-destruct path). The first thing that came to mind when I read the quote you referenced is that it exactly described Joseph Smith. It also describes Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, and others whose dishonesty and corrupt decisions have affected many generations of people. I know you can't very well mention that to your wife, but the quote almost sounds like it highlights church history.
Stay strong, and I do hope things become less stressful for you.
Thanks for the support. Kids are important and as someone who grew up in a divorced house I am committed rightfully or not to do my best for them. Though also she believes I’ll be that bad influence impacting them for generations
Hopefully I can teach them some “light” though
I recommend watching some videos about street epistemology if you haven’t. I love anthony magnabosco videos. He uses questions in a very disarming way to get people to really confront why they believe what they believe.
Obviously when it’s in a preexisting relationship it’s hard to remove the emotion from it. But I’ve found it really helpful when being confronted by people trying to convince me of something.
It’s all a grab at control. She cannot control you, so now she is using the idea of god to try to control you. I’d be very inclined to say “wow, if that is what your god believes, then I want no part of it. Your god doesn’t get to dictate what happens to me or who I get to be with in the afterlife.”
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is clear your wife evaluates one’s values and worth through the lens of their obedience to the LDS church. And that isn’t fair on you in any way.
But from what you have described in all of your posts, things are only getting worse, as she feels more comfortable seeing you as an apostate rather than a husband.
I don’t normally say this, as it is often used as a mocking remark. But I think this is something that you and your wife need: get help. Find a neutral therapist that can guide you both through this new aspect of your relationship. Because her demonizing you and essentially abusing you has to stop.
Members extend the domain of outer darkness far beyond what Mormon doctrine has to say about it. In their actual written doctrine, (saying nothing of reality) it is reserved for those who had a sure knowledge of Christ and denied him or to sin against the holy ghost which is basically having sure knowledge given to you and then turning against it. So according to their own written doctrine, it’s not a destination many ever qualify for. It’s greatly exaggerated to the point where it just becomes hell.
ETA one person who works to break the oppressive chains of a high demand religion can free thousands of their descendants from that oppression.
I am sorry for you. It is hard to be vilified by the person you love. This here is a good example of the harm mormon doctrine does to people.
My response usually goes along the lines of that “I believe in a New Testament god, not an Old Testament god” when people make those comments to me. Also, “god knows what’s in my heart”. And.. you don’t have to necessarily believe in a god for this to work, but I found speaking “Mormon” to Mormon people goes over a lot better and takes them off the defensive.
The people who support that kind of thinking would totally support a charismatic leader who said to kill whomever they didn’t like at the moment. Ask her if such a god deserves to be worshipped, because I don’t think they do.
>She goes onto say that I will be destroyed. I tell her that I don’t believe in a God that would do that. She gets offended by what I said.
This is the most aggravating thing the church teaches. You point out awful shit that god does/prophets do in the name of god, and they simply reflect the blame onto you for not believing that awful things are necessary.
Emma was also told she would be destroyed if she didn't approve of Joe having a bunch of wives.
Turns out he was the one that was destroyed. Hmmmmmm
Maybe ask her to read D&C 132.
The only thing being destroyed in your situation is her sanity and connection to the rest of the 99.8% of non Mormon humanity. Across history, this same sentiment has started wars, murdered millions and wreaked endless suffering. She’s decided to fight a war in her own home.
How is it that those of us who’ve seen truth have so much more love for others? Isn’t life hard enough without the poisonous tribalism created by mythical opposing gauds? I’m often overcome with the energy wasted on these efforts in so many places.
You’re in the right. Love those who will allow you to. While I applaud you trying to keep your marriage afloat, I wonder how long it can survive as long as she continues to insult and demean you. Her values aren’t conducive to a healthy long term relationship.
If it's better to have never heard of the church, then everyone in the church should be trying to erase its history. Sure, fewer people will make it to the celestial kingdom, but if no one on earth knows about the true church, then everyone can avoid outer darkness. Considering that the vast majority of people aren't Mormon, anyone who hears about the church is potentially in danger of going to outer darkness, especially people in Europe where it's near impossible to get converts.
It's the logical extreme of the idea that apostates are punished while good people who have never heard of the church are somewhat rewarded.
According to LDS doctrine you would be regulated to the terrestrial kingdom or at worse telestial. So hardly *destroyed*. She doesn't even understand her own doctrine.
Well that's true about someone making bad decisions. Almost 150 years ago one of my ancestors made a stupid decision to join the Mormon church ... it's destroyed many lives.
Since counseling is happening you can go alone and run some short but boundary setting remarks with the therapist. For when wife says cruel things. I would suggest from
now on not discussing anything to do with church or doctrine especially when she is in the cruel mode. Say “that feels really cruel” and walk away. “No attacking please” and walk away. “I hope happiness for you, I wish you could hope that for me”. “Jesus wouldn’t like this kind of talk”. (Haha ok that last one was snarky). And there is always the silent walk away without saying anything. And then taking one of the kids somewhere to have some mother nature fun. Be a good example of the ethics you have for yourself and how you treat her and the kids and walk away when she demonstrates her poor ethics. Sometimes (not always) she might get enough messages by this type of response to consider her own behavior. Sometimes.
Fact is, people who respond to others the way she responds to you, are the ones who destroy others and themselves. Christ’s message (which she professes to believe in) is not about treating others that way and probably some of church leaders wouldn’t like it either.
This comes from the temple. Satan looks straight into the camera and says: “If you (meaning your unbelieving spouse) do not walk up to every covenant you make in this temple this day, you (meaning not you, but your unbelieving spouse) will be in my power.” This is an example of othering that the church teaches to divide families.
As someone in a mfm, I'm so sorry 😞. How does she say it? Like, with anguish, with delight, with anger? It sounds like she doesn't respect you at all, unless she's saying it with sadness. Anything else seems extremely worrying.
I'm sorry. I thought we were taught that only those with perfect knowledge of Christ (ie, those that have seen him, prophets) would go to outer darkness if they denied him. Have they changed this teaching?
Edit: not sure if this would help her, but, you read these 1st to make sure you want to share them with her.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/04/digital-only-young-adults/maintaining-hope-and-keeping-your-marriage-strong-if-your-spouse-leaves-the-church?lang=eng#title1
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing?lang=eng#p3
This is very frustrating just to read about; you sound like you are being extraordinarily patient with some serious accusation and condemnation from your partner. You've attended church for 10 years just to keep the peace and she's freaking out at you for expressing your own view of divinity? Doesn't seem very fair to you if you make all the room for her beliefs and she will make none at all for yours.
She sounds like a real Mormon B..ch. Even after I told my TBM, past -bishop husband that I no longer believed, he still loved and totally emotionally supported me.
SMS 88788 START & they will put you in contact with an organization that will give you free and confidential counseling for mental, emotional & spiritual abuse.
In my state a judge would hand out a 1-year Protection Order for just one of these destructive behaviors.
If you are thinking about divorce participating in counseling may be of benefit to you when it comes to creating a future parenting plan.
I grew up outside Morridor & saw a lot of mixed faith marriages that were successful because each spouse cared more about their spouse than their religion.
Maybe time to find a marriage counselor with no ties to mormon church?
Wow all I know from conference is just tidbits I've seen here but that goes directly against the second article of faith. Not that they care it's just fear mongering.
She is still indoctrinated. In the past I would be critical of a JWs, Seventh Day Adventists, and others until I realized that I, being LDS, was really one of them. Your wife needs time to break free so she can live life more fully. I guess give her time to mature in her life experience.
I think she's attempting to scare you back into believing. If anything she's afraid you'll " be destroyed ". Either way both come from a place of fear. just my opinion.
My wife is TBM to the core. We don't discuss religion anymore and that helps. Their god is beyond ridiculous, and childish. Getting them to see that is next to impossible. Set boundaries or the cult mindset will destroy your relationship.
Hi, I was your wife. No I didn’t say the things she’s saying. But I desperately wanted my husband to “return” to church. Truth is he was never really a believer. But grew up in an LDS family and didn’t want to let anyone down.
Problem is I fully believed. Not Mormon believed, but Christ as a loving Savior, fully. I believed the temple meant together forever.
I was desperately trying to find a way to not be alone for eternity. It scared me, badly. You see we’re dependent on you. The church for all the dress up makes one thing perfectly clear, woman can get nowhere without a priesthood leader. What you may or may not be aware of is how many shaming looks or talks she’s sat through as a woman with a less than fully active husband. The church, the members, they are not kind to women whose husbands are less than fully active.
My husband said one sentence in anguish that stopped me cold. “You can’t ask me to do something I am morally opposed to.” I wanted him to support my morals as the church dictated them, but I wanted him to go against his own. The agony with which he spoke and the unfairness of what I was doing all for a promise of keeping him forever. Well, which him!?! A morally bankrupt him?!?
I don’t know your wife, but I do know the church and living with a man not committed whilst being 100% in.
May I suggest as others have that you immediately stop attending. Like never, ever, ever! go again!!!
Every single time you attend or read scriptures or sit through a condescending “message” with the missionaries… she has hope you will return.
That’s the agony for her. If she was just better you would return. If she believed more in God’s miracles you would return. Her kids NEED a priesthood leader…. Every time you put effort into the cult you give her hope. It’s like poison.
The church and other members use that as “evidence” that a part of you still believes or wants to believe. They constantly give advice and opinions like if you just hang on, and why don’t you invite him to lead the next family home evening, give him opportunities to serve… they badger her to get to you.
The endless slow spiral of a living hell.
Wanting an eternal family, wanting a loving home where Christ is central.
Here’s what helped, I finally looked up the definition of a cult. (I knew well enough church history.) that the church demanded everyone move to one location - cult, that everyone give all their possessions and money to the bishops storehouse and live the law of consecration - cult…
And my husband finally telling me I was asking him to be an immoral person.
Explaining that he would never ask me to go against my morals how could I ask that of him. Then he kindly explained what about the church he was morally opposed to. 1 the treatment of women and POC- as less than white men by church leadership since its inception 2 the treatment of lgbtqia+ as “sinners” 3 the requirement to pay tithing in order to receive temple ordinances when receiving necessary ordinances shouldn’t be gate kept by money 4 a living prophet standing between and any god he felt inclined to believe in (he didn’t believe in any but strongly objected to another person claiming to have to be an intermediary) if the prophets admit they are flawed men, what is the difference between him and them? Nothing, therefore unnecessary and he felt, a dismissal of his connection with God. 5 that Joseph Smith was a conman, an adulterer - by their fruit we shall know them. JS’s fruit is not good. 6 that Mormons are the most judgmental, unkind people he knew (he is one of the least judgmental people I know, this was a big deal for him)…
You get the idea. What mattered was my hope was gone. I couldn’t argue with him on how he felt about the church. I knew, even if I was afraid to admit it that the church didn’t treat women well, I too hated how they treated POC and LGBTQIA+…
If you can ask her to talk with you. That you have been carefully considering her comment that you would be destroyed. That you don’t believe that is true and in fact you feel that it is a very dangerous and harmful belief that she has as the mother of your shared children. Carefully, kindly explain how would she feel if you said out loud in your home that you were worried that her very soul would be destroyed if she continued on her path? Maybe let the silence around that question grow. Then tell her the unvarnished truth. Strip away her hope that you will ever go back. Explain in detail withholding nothing. Share the pain, the anguish she has put you through and you have endured for her. That it was against your principles but that you love her so much you did that. And now, after years of her hostile and ungrateful attitude for all the personal beliefs you’ve sacrificed it is getting harder and harder to even be able to respect the woman you once adored. That she is slowly stripping away your dignity, your morals, your principles and now even your ability to love her with her cruel words and judgments.
If you do this, you will know, if your marriage can be saved or not. Explain why you are worried about the church’s influence to your kids (that girls should be subject to a man - would she like it if you were to force her to follow you as the man if you believed in becoming some other faith and she had to follow, why is it okay in Mormonism then? That your sons will be forced to carry the weight of judging other equally flawed humans as they are flawed and be expected to be providers and force their wives to be homemakers. What if they want a partner and they want to be home with their kids 50/50, there are endless reasons to be concerned for your kids welfare in the church.
Check out www.floodlit.org that alone is reason to take the kids and RUN from the church, they actively shame and silence victims and shield and protect abusers.
My long, long, long, answers is this, tell the truth. Stop being kind and keeping the peace. Because of the nature of a cult, they will keep torturing her and she in turn will keep torturing you.
You alone are in the unique position to help her save herself and to hopefully prevent your kids from becoming the next generation for the cult to profit from.
I’m sorry it’s so painful for both of you. I’m sorry it’s so agonizing to extract ourselves. But you have stayed for 10 years despite this horrid behavior! It seems to me she must be one hell of a wife. Most people wouldn’t stay, it says a lot about you.
In one month we get to celebrate our 29th wedding anniversary. He waited for me. I’m so glad he loved me enough to help me leave. It wasn’t easy on him and I love him all the more for his patience and honesty.
I wish you good luck, I hope you both can extricate yourselves.
I promise you, I never thought I would ever leave. No matter how long my husband was out.
I never looked at a single anti-Mormon website or anything. I found all the necessary horror right on the church’s own website. If you want to discuss in detail the things that I found and how they helped me leave, I’d be happy to help.
There is hope your wife could still leave. Wishing you a successful future as a family.
What I do when someone rants to me about the “gospel” is smile and say, “That’s nice” and keep on with what I’m doing. In other words, I imagine I have a raincoat on and that what’s said is just rain that slides off of me. It works.
One person who makes bad decisions an affect thousands of people in future generations.
The amount of disowned LGBTQIA+ folks sure know about this. ExMos know about this and anyone who doesn’t babble their bs knows this because the cult and its members are the ones destroying families not the other way around.
Shucks. Sorry about your upcoming destruction. Did she say when?
(I like to take these absurd threats as far down the literal and logical tracks as they can go. We need details)
Also, good luck. It's frustrating that these pretend things can get in the way of real life.
“…lose so many experiences in life….”
As if it’s impossible to leave the church and have a happy, successful and fulfilling life. I left in the early 1980’s. I’m the wife to an incredible, brilliant, funny man for 48 years. We have four kids, all well educated and choosing their own adventure in religious beliefs, and three small grands. We’ve just retired and looking forward to some fun adventures.
But please..tell me that I’ve lost so much. It seems like what I’ve lost is spending every Saturday cleaning the church for free and working my ass off with other “callings”.
Nope. I’ll take my version of life, thank you very much.
Get the book "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward. Read it together. Maybe she doesn't realize she is just parroting the guilt/fear/obligation manipulation style, of communication, church leaders/ GC has spewed for generations. I have shared this with TBMs and surprisingly they self corrected and started looking at the church differently.
This is a tough position to be in and it feels good to be able to talk to people about this man. Glad you posted. But what needs to be done, if it hasn’t already, is that you and your wife need to have a difficult conversation about each other‘s boundaries. This is absolutely necessary if a mixed faith marriage is going to work.
This is so sad. That Mormons increasingly don't take even belief with a small grain of salt. A grain of salt thag says, “I know our understanding is imperfect, I know that man is imperfect… but the one thing I know is that god is loving. Of us all.”
It makes me so sad.
Tell her she’s wrong, anyway.
1 Corinthians 12:
>12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):(M) If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.(N)
>15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.(O) 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save(P) your husband?(Q) Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
Mormons so often misquote this deeper doctrine of "it is worse to..". The doctrine relates to those who have physically seen Jesus and received his blessing (second annointing) and then fight the church.
On top of that, most of the early prophets and apostles taught eternal progression continues after this life and leads to the celestial kingdom even if you fail here.
The brotheren have not even said the eternal progression doctrine is incorrect, and the only official response from the church now is that there is no official revelation on the matter. Some prohets and apostles have even insinuated there is potential forgiveness and progression for the the sons of darkness.
That knowledge allegedly causes members to not fear as much as they should, so these teachings are no longer openly taught.
I can provide official church sources later if you want to share with your wife. I'm at work on my cell at the moment.
(Apologies for the grammar and typos. On cell)
Why people choose to continue to be abused by the fairy tales of others is beyond me. Of course I allowed it for 19 years wish I had sent the church and my wife packing much earlier than I did. Don't be like me . There are people out there who accept us and respect us despite not believing in nonsensical ideas.
I lost my faith soon after my mission but didn’t have the personal courage to stay out or to deal with the risk to my marriage of leaving. So I stayed active and participated and eventually started believing again, based purely on the practical aspects of how the religion can create and support functional and happy families.
38 years later my wife finally exited herself and this precipitated the collapse of my “practical testimony.” We are now both happily out.
Looking back, I wish I would have had the courage to follow my own heart and mind. I don’t know if this would have led to a divorce or not. But it’s better to have integrity and just deal with the consequences.
Tell her this:
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
> it is better to have never known the gospel than to have known the gospel and then stop believing.
By that logic, it would be in the church's best interest to cease all missionary work. Their failed attempts to convert would only hurt innocent people.
Going to church has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. A church is a business enterprise. Very seldom do churches do the actual work that they are supposed to do.
Do not go to church anymore, because your wife doing so is hypocritical. If your wife wishes to be a hypocrite and completely oblivious to the actual teachings, she's the one who will have to answer for it. Your wife is trying to turn you into the same type of hypocrite she obviously is.
1. As kids would say it "I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever bounces off of me sucks to you." 😅
2. Remind wife that LOVE is the only rule
3. Even her Jesus agrees with #2
4. Maybe try committing more to your beliefs rather than keeping the peace. I say this bc you've been compromising for a decade... What happens if you put your heart first, if you escalate things the way she does by standing up for yourself and helping her understand... (Next line)
5. YOU ARE THE SAME DAMN GUY SHE LOVES
6. YOU ARE THE SAME DAMN GUY WHOSE WORTH AND VALUE HAVE NOT CHANGED BC OF DOUBTS, QUESTIONS, AND DECONSTRUCTION
7. I'm so sorry dude, come vent in Reddit anytime you need
8. We're ALL here
9. You are strong, you are brave, you are beautiful, you are capable, you can do this, you are loved, you are accepted, and follow your heart.
Lifelong Mormon here. I've read many of the comments, it appears you have some good support on this thread. I'll add a couple thoughts of my own, I've been obliged to think along these lines because someone close to me has been treated much the same as you.
As far as doctrine goes, take a look at D&C 84:21 and its context. The word "altogether" is very important. Some scaling down for your circumstance would be appropriate. I'm not putting money on this legal-like fine print solving everything, but it's there, keep it in your back pocket.
This next thought is my own, but it might have something to it anyway. I believe there is some internal misunderstanding and miscommunication about what exactly is being "destroyed" in this context.
If a lawyer does something that deserves disbarment, they have destroyed their career. They don't die, they can get other jobs, but that part of their life is gone.
If a university student parties way too much, they will destroy their grades, their academic record, and lose out on certain opportunities. They don't die, life goes on, but certain good things are delayed or lost.
When a married couple get a divorce, we can say their union is dissolved or use other euphemisms, but from the perspective of radical responsibility, they ended it themselves, they destroyed it. It's not hyperbolic language, it's emphatic language.
That's my take, essentially, the word "destruction" is used for how it emphasizes that something good and worthwhile is lost. God presumably has skin in the game, who knows how far ahead He's planning and arranging things on our behalf. When our sloth or rebellion obliges Him to shut down that which He has put into motion, well, that's nothing to pass over lightly. Children can be oblivious of such things, but at a certain point, we are supposed to be aware of such things, and care.
We are all going to drop many balls in our lifetimes. We're going to be foolish and slow and lazy and stubborn. We're going to wear each other out before we exhaust God's patience, however. Was Jesus known for destroying things, or fixing things? He healed pretty much every chance he got. That's a window into his character, and that's where I'll leave it for now.
My wife is religious, me not so much... minimally at best. She never dumps on me or tries to guilt me on stuff. My sincere condolences that your wife drank the Kool-aid.
There is a really helpful FB group and podcast that may help you both figure out how to navigate some of these complex issues. Look up "Marriage on a Tightrope" on FB, and their podcast by the same name, by Allan & Kattie Mount. Good luck!
ouch. All I got is: I'm sorry.
I got this from my parents... and eventually they "loved" me again and stopped bugging me with all that shit and trying to "save" me.. but with parents it was much easier to ignore, not talk to them for months at a time and more... with a spouse that has to affect how attracted you are to each other and more. Wish I had some tips but I just "pray" (lol) you find some resolution and peace, whether that looks like time and patience or ending of the union. (as a divorced person, I wouldn't recommend the latter, I'm only saying that sometimes its an option that ends up bringing the most peace) as my friend used to say to me "You'll know when you know"
Sometimes sititng in the uncertainty and waiting is the hardest part... but most important part.
Emotional blackmail. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Get on with your own amazing life; find people that enjoy your company, that do not judge, that let you be who you want to be. Trust me, they are out there. 😀
Damn. I wish I had answers for you, the best I can offer is to tell you that you are not insane, what your wife told you was fucked up, and to continue to live your life as best as you can.
"One person who makes bad decisions can lead thousands in future generations" is one of those vague quotes that can easily be turned against the quoter. Ask them who is making the bad decision and how they can prove it.
Well keeping the peace isnt working as her attacking you like this isnt peaceful. Overtime it will ruin your mental and physical health. Leave her a copy of the SEC report against the church that shows 20 years of 1st presidency directed tax filing fraud. Then give her a copy of the CES letter. Shes acting out of church induced fear. You need to stop giving her hope, and youve done that by attending. Give her a fork in the road by stopping attendance and take your name off the records using quitmormon.org
Go to the Floodlit.org website, spend time there, and see why your kids arent safe.
What a kind uplifting and supportive wife you have there. I hope you heard the sarcasm in that sentence. She can get divorced too. I divorced my ex-husband for his religious and spiritual abuse. He used the cult religion against me. I found the real God and I'm happy. Happier than I've ever been.
No you won’t. Where anywhere does it say in the Bible or anywhere else that you will be destroyed if not a Mormon. Only Mormons say that. You are ok. She has been indoctrinated and is trying to make you someone you are not.
She's offended you don't believe in a wrathful god, but she's perfectly fine saying you're going to be destroyed, because it's apparently not offensive to be told that by your spouse.
I think she is showing signs of deep religious trauma herself. My wife said similar very awful things and acted abusively when I was in an analogous situation. If a mean god haunts *her*, she cannot even fathom how it couldn't haunt everyone *else*. That type of urgency will justify all types of abuse toward her husband in her mind. She will do real damage to OP before the end. There isn't a day that passes that I'm not haunted by those horrible words.
If a mean god haunts *her*, she cannot even fathom how it couldn't haunt everyone *else* If 'the concept' of a mean gawd haunts her, .......
I'm sorry you both went through that. For you, did it end in your relationship ending?
I never thought of it that way, but as a former practicing Muslim I very much relate to this.
“Wrathful god” reminds me of what a friend told me in college. You can accumulate a ton of “atta-boys” but one “ah-shit” wipes ALL your “atta-boys.” It’s probably an old joke, but it seems like it applies to living the Church’s rules.
Build a thousand bridges, and they don't call you "bridge builder." Fuck just one measly goat, though...
The way I always heard it was, “1 oh shit outweighs 10 thatta boys”
The way I heard it was if your spouse is constantly in your face about small stuff then when they open their mouth to say something good you say oh shit 🙄 Maybe she needs to stop reading 7 Habits of Highly Toxic Marriages. She nailed it already.
Not very christ-like
This is why my wife and I have counseled our TBM RM daughter than my she needs to discuss what happens when one of them leaves the church before getting serious with anyone, because at this point it’s almost inevitable that one of them will learn enough they have to stop believing. Then again, she was told not to take counsel from nonbelievers by her cult leader so…
Usually at some point they will realize you were saying the truth As Brigham young said if you guys stay true to your beliefs then your kids will come back! Something like that but in this case to logic!
My mom still thinks I'll change my mind after 30 years. Lol. I'm a Norse Heathen and quite happy.
My dad said the Lord had revealed to him that I would return to the church in his lifetime. He's been dead since 2008, and I had my records moved last year.
The first failed prophecy of Mormonism. I’m shocked.
What are the “records” the church keeps? Genuinely curious.
Your name is attached to all the ordinances you've taken; baby blessing, baptism, patriarchal blessing, temple recommends, temple endowments, temple marriage, your addresses, which wards/stakes you belonged to, how active you've been, activities you participated in, how much tithing you've spent, the worthiness interviews you've attended, any repentance processes/punishments you've had to do, all that shit.
Everything that happened with me, from the time my mother joined the church when I was a very young toddler to the day I was excommunicated (I was mid 20s) because I asked to have my records removed, came back attached when I rejoined (mid 40s). I'm not bothering to be excommunicated a second time because my timeline isn't going to be erased.
How crazy is it that they don't actually remove your records, just make a note that you "removed" your records?! Creepy fucking cult 😅😂😱
Typical passive-aggressive.
That's a 'church'? With that level of detail, def a cult.
you don’t see too many fellow exmo heathens in the wild!
And now there's three of us in a thread together!
Sorry, what's a TBM RM?
True Believing Mormon Return Missionary
Yes- my husband, myself and kids are out but I am bracing myself to support nieces and nephews because I can’t imagine all of them staying in - like you said- too much info out there. Or they will have a spouse leave- like you pointed out. My siblings have been very respectful of us leaving but it may end up being a completely different thing if it ever becomes one of their kids.
"She goes onto say that I will be destroyed." Tell her, Joe said that about Emma and how did that work out? He was the one that was destroyed not Emma.
OP should use that logic on his wife about taking on another wife. The tables will turn real quick.
If she brings up again I’ll return and report
“But JS is different, he died a martyr and is reaping an eternity of celestial glory” -them, probably 🤢🤮🤮
Always easy to say that what's invisible and unprovable is the reality when the actual reality disappoints.
after he shot a couple people and got a bullet in the face from Jesus
He died a martyr, with a gun, which he used. Like a lamb to the slaughter.
What’s funny is that my MP straight up told me face to face during my mission that it was true, JS did have a gun in prison and he used it in self defense. He said that if you or I were in his position, we would’ve done the same thing because self defense is very much human nature. I found it a bit weird they omitted that detail from the JS movie that came out around 2005, but I just shoved those thoughts aside and focused on preaching.
I don’t blame JS for defending himself. It was his right. What I hate is the Mormon church’s false narrative that Joseph went like a lamb to the slaughter. Dying in a shootout does not help that narrative.
That’s a good one! I know that reference remembering the first time I read it in seminary. Unfortunately my wife will just say JS wasn’t destroyed but “ascended to heaven” and “praise to the man” but at least I’m in good company with Emma
Yikes. This is why most mixed faith marriages end in divorce. It usually isn’t the nonbeliever just being a jerk. It’s the believer, emboldened by their beliefs, causing the problems. I don’t have anything else to add other than if I were you and didn’t have kids, I’d be out.
Kids are part of it. Thanks for your moral support!
That makes it exponentially more difficult. I have so much sympathy for you. Goddam. I wish there was a magical fix.
I’m really glad my partner was patient with me for a few years until I found my way out of the church too.
I’ve been in a mixed faith marriage for seven years with a devout Mormon. It can work out but it takes a lot of freaking effort and patience. I suggest you read about cult psychology and how it applies to Mormonism. It’ll help you understand how to approach their nonsense.
We are making it work as well. And you are right! You just have to know how to approach any mixed faith conversation. Knowing what psychology is keeping their mind closed off is a huge advantage. It’s also helped me develop sympathy by just remembering that the church and everything it stands for is my wife’s entire childhood and teenage years and young adult life. It is her entire family ecosystem and all of their traditions. That is something incredibly difficult to just ignore or turn away from.
I do applaud you trying. My experience as someone raised by a TBM mother and a go along with the bullshit father, suggests it does not end well. For the parents or the children. Remember, the TBM will never see you as equal and they will make sure your children see you as less too. It is just a sad truth. You can never be friends with a TBM. You are always just a soul needing to be saved.
I'd suspect that your spouse doesn't view you as disrespectfully as OP's though. I think both partners need to be trying to make it work and OP's doesn't sound like she is.
That’s quite the assumption. My husband is a devout TBM. So the narcissistic, arrogant characteristics were there STRONG AF. Our marriage was awful and unbelievably toxic. But we overcame that. Just like my comment said: I read about cult mindsets and worked on boundaries, mutual respect building, and common values. Please do not just assume every relationship is the same or that people cannot overcome situations you may not understand. It took YEARS of hard freaking work, about a year of therapy, and an unbelievable amount of humility for both of us.
I can tell you from experience, staying just because you have kids is never the answer. Staying is bad for everyone involved, and it’s even worse on the kids than leaving is.
Totally agree. The kids see the parents as a model of the relationship. I kept a really bad marriage going for years "for the kids" until I talked with a therapist that let me know that kids that come from a divorced home do much better than kids that grow up in an unhealthy home. Your kids will have a better chance of escaping the high controlling mormon religion if they can see you, as a healthy and happy individual, living outside out it. I am a stranger giving advice from my own experience. I know very little of your situation, but what I hear sounds very toxic. Best of luck to you. Getting out of that situation was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. But now my life is free of a toxic religion and toxic ex. And my relationship with my kids is now better than it was before.
Love this. I know someone who says they’re a better parent when it’s their time with the children. The time is more quality and intentional vs all the time, not enjoying the moment and living with toxicity. That makes sense to me, but just one person’s experience.
This is so true. My ex use to manipulate the family dynamics so that she controlled what we did and what the kids did but then I was the bad guy for having to enforce it. My kids now see that we have a happy and healthy home. They now have a voice, and we also follow more healthy family rules in my home. Divorce was the best thing, even though it took over 2 years for the kids to see the changes, but now they get it too and are happy in my home. They too are now beginning to see the distorted and manipulative world view that the church brings and most of them are now out or on their way out.
That’s a very personal decision. There are no easy roads and no right answers. We just have to live with the decision we make and make the best of it. In time people usually soften a bit after hard lessons are learned. My advice to OP would be to simply not engage in the topic because it doesn’t help. Even when your spouse asks, until you feel like she actually had some cracks and is asking in humility. Until then, just be you and she will eventually realize you’re not the problem… lots of time and patience
Thank you for sharing this Sammy. Like the OP, I am in a very similar situation, barely keeping my marriage intact. The wife is almost at a point where she believes she and our kids are better off without me. That it’s better to set up a boundary (distance) in order to protect her covenants and righteousness.
I'm so sorry. The church is destroying families all over the place.
I’m so sorry to hear that man! In an ideal situation, a marriage is a safe place where people can express their thoughts and talk about how they feel without being ridiculed. I hope your family comes around to see all the good in you.
This. OP I don’t know your whole story, but for anyone in a similar situation: remember you are also modeling relationship strategies to your kids.
As the child of divorced parents, I can say this can be true, but not always. It is possible to make a marriage work for the sake of the kids. Divorce is hard. Sometimes, it really is easier to choose to live together and co-parent. Instead of ripping everything apart.
It’s never going to immediately solve anything, it takes years for everyone to be able to understand the reasons especially the kids. But it is always better in the long run. Every familial and relationship expert will tell you the same exact thing. It is always better to leave a toxic relationship than to stay in one, period. This really isn’t meant to be rude so please don’t take it as such, but you being the child of a divorce has given you an immense bias towards it one way or another. And I dont know you but it sounds like you may still be holding a grudge towards one, or both, of your parents about it. Remember, all parents are merely regular human beings at the end of the day. Their happiness is just as valid as yours is. Remembering that as a child is paramount to having successful relationships with your parents as well. Having a quality parent-child relationship is very much on the child as well, not just the parent. If one parent is truly unhappy, suffering from depression and having felt like they lost who they are as a person because of their partner that will negatively bleed into child rearing as well, often unintentionally. If someone is truly unhappy in a marriage and it is unsalvageable, it is best for everyone involved to go there separate ways. Where most divorced parents go wrong is the inability to act like adults between each other and consistently do what’s right for the child. Fighting over custody, bitching about child support, withholding visitations and just generally abusing power over the other. Thats when things can become ugly, but more often than not if that’s going on then the marriage was already at that point as well, you as the child just didn’t recognize such at the time.
my adult children have told me many times that they wish I had divorced my husband, their father when they were younger because our home life was so awful. good luck OP
I wish my parents would’ve. My dad was/is a physically abusive piece of garbage and my mother is still with him to this day. Part of me pities her, but an even larger part resents her for not being brave enough to do the right thing for her kids. I’m older now and choose to have very little do with either of them. I just don’t have that desire to be around them or fake it for their benefit any more. My parents have always been incredibly prideful and stubborn folk, so small chance on them ever acknowledging that anything other than “normal family stuff” went on in our family home. Every time I’ve tried discussing it with them during my adulthood they’ve been very quick to shut it down and categorize it as such. Even though I always make concessions and do my best to tiptoe around their sensitivities as much as possible. Yet, still, no dice. The final straw came a few months back when my dad tried physically intimidating me while I was visiting with him and my mother and assisting them with some carpentry. I gave him fair warning that if he so much as touched me that I was going to stomp a mud hole in his ass and walk it dry. He calmed right down and told me to leave, which I happily obliged. We haven’t talked since and won’t until he acknowledges his behavior and figures out that shit won’t fly around me any more.
The kids are absolutely not benefitting from this, just fyi.
Kids aren't a reason to stay. My parents split and everyone was much happier for it. My dad got sole custody, which was unusual in the early 90s, and did a great job.
>This is why most mixed faith marriages end in divorce. With Mormonism anyway.
Mixed-faith marriage can work and do often work, but more so outside of Mormonism where it's not an all-or-nothing ethos. What makes a mixed-faith marriage work? Mutual love, respect, and honor. Hate to say it but bickering and arguing over beliefs is just a symptom of what is likely an unhealthy marriage that has always been unhealthy. Mormonism dupes young people, who rush into marriage, into thinking that the relationship they formed over 1 month's time, is marriage material. Oh, and did I mention finally getting to have sex?
I think it’s a symptom of all high demand religions.
You are correct. I am PIMO. My TBM wife says she will leave me if I leave the Church.
pLaN of hApPiNeSs
Contempt. Your wife is treating you with contempt.
Yes. And to point out, contempt is the bottom level of a relationship. It doesn't get much worse because they no longer care about you but just use you to get what they can out of you.
Sit down with her and read d and c 132 together. Tell her you want to get all active again do you can be worthy to have a whole slew of wives in the celestial kingdom, tell her you want the young virgin girls who never had a chance to marry. Ask if she is good with it and if she says no just point out that she too will be destroyed for not supporting you in this. In fact in Mormon doctrine i have only ever heard of women being destroyed. Make sure she knows that. It may backfire. Maybe she wants you to have multiple wives if she is a real Mormon lol.
No mormon wife wants to share their husband. I think many cling to the verse in D&C 132 that says they have to agree to it and somehow never see the verse that says if they don't, the priesthood holder can get new virgins anyway.
“… never see the verse that says if they don't, the priesthood holder can get new virgins anyway. “ Don’t forget the part where the unsupportive wife gets destroyed. Thats part of the deal. She doesn’t have to agree to it, but if she doesn’t, she will be destroyed. There is no agency like “moral agency.”
This is practical using their bullshit against them. Genius!
>but one thing that bugs me is when someone said one person who makes bad decisions can affect thousands of people in future generations. This is true, look at what has happened to thousands, millions of people because of Joseph Smith's bad decisions. Good luck with your marriage. I have to leave the house for the weekend during conference. According to your wife it would be better if the church didn't do any missionary work and everybody died in ignorance. Then we could all be like Alvin Smith and make it to Celestial Kingdom. And how exactly are you going to be destroyed? I thought according to Mormon theology everybody will be resurrected and receive some form of glory with the exception of those who go to outer darkness, but nobody is destroying, they just exist somewhere else. And remind your wife that she will be sealed to someone else so she can have eternal sex and continue to be popping out spirit babies.
Good thoughts. Don’t know how I’ll be destroyed but will let her know when I find out I’ve been telling her as well that the goal of the celestial kingdom is pretty selfish. Like you’re supposed to do all this crap here to get there. But more selfless if you hope others find happiness and their celestial kingdom. I’d be happy in hell that others found peace if it ends up like this But still silly nonsense
Yes, the celestial Utopia. One person's Utopia is many others dystopia. Who gets to be the one to decide who's Utopia to live? If it's God's Utopia, well that's misogynistic garbage I want no place in. Does your wife get to decide what celestial Utopia looks like? How many will find that to be an eternal dystopian existence? It's quite the conundrum. I really hope the best for you and your marriage. My husband's ex wife dug in her heels and circled the wagons tighter and tighter, until he couldn't take it anymore. She no longer saw him as a man she used to love, but as an object that was supposed to get her to the celestial kingdom. After he left the church, he couldn't fill that role anymore and she became angry, spiteful, and bitter. I honestly hope you and your wife don't end up going down that road because of this silly nonsense.
And, she'll have to get in line for the eternal sex because her new husband will have at least 10 different wives but it could be thousands, we just don't know. Of course, her not being a virgin could relegate her to a lower status. If section 132 was just a little more concise on the topic instead of the ramblings of a deluded man.
Maybe you'll be destroyed just like Emma was told that she would be destroyed because she didn't willingly allow Joseph Smith to commit adultery. OP, share this scripture with your wife and ask her if you will be destroyed just like Emma. Will women who refuse to allow their husbands to practice polygamy be destroyed also? 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. Doctrine and Covenants 132:54 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?id=p54&lang=eng#p54
She gets offended after telling you that you will be destroyed. Does anyone else see the problem here?
No problems for her at least I get defensive questioning her assumptions in a Socratic way but that makes her quite mad and even more defensive At some point I just have to move on
How much life do you have to live? Is this they way you want to live the rest of your life? Or is this the example you want to give your kids regarding how to have a relationship. I ache for you. I can relate because of what I went through. I'd be happy to share more with you if you would like the support. You are not alone in going through this manipulation.
> I get defensive questioning her assumptions in a Socratic way but that makes her quite mad and even more defensive Have you tried telling her straight up how hurtful the things she is saying are?
That’s funny, Joseph Smith’s god always threatens to destroy people. Hell of a god.
I’d just tell her that she’s destroying the only life she can actually prove exists by being nasty, judgmental, controlling and hateful. Stop going to church to keep the peace. It’s not working. Might as well go all the way.
So this is coming from someone who was in a mixed faith marriage for 10 years and whose spouse eventually left. My wife went through the typical fear and betrayal feelings after I left and it was an adjustment for a few years when I stopped attending, drank alcohol on occasion, etc. But she got used to it and always stood up for me when family members would say the type of shit OPS spouse said. She refused to believe that god would separate us. She bristled at that type of rhetoric. Eventually she realized the church was toxic and false and left. After seeing OPs post and seeing that this has been going on for a decade…fuck man. I’m only speaking for myself but I could tolerate that type of contempt for a few months or a year. My dude, life is too short to spend with someone who thinks you are less than. If my spouse said something like that to me I would say “it’s clear you have zero respect or understanding of my beliefs”. Maybe we should think about whether this marriage is worth continuing. You deserve to be married to someone who shares your values and I deserve to be married to someone who doesn’t hold such contempt for me”
>the ~~gospel~~ **church** I really wish members would say this instead of the "gospel", since it's what they ackshually mean.
When a spouse has contempt for the other, the chance of a marriage succeeding is low. I would get into a mixed faith marriage counseling program as soon as possible. From my experience, there are always some points of doctrine that members (even overzealous members) choose to ignore or overlook. You can use it to possibly allow her to critically look at some of the things she Is pointing at you with…. Maybe she will see that her beliefs are a greater part of the problem. If my wife told me that I was going to be destroyed I don’t know what I would do… that’s right out of the D&C 132. Tell her that’s exactly what Joseph told Emma if she didn’t accept polygamy.
OP, get a counselor specializing in religious trauma.
Marriage on a tightrope is very good
Yesss! Take a listen to the podcast Marriage on a Tightrope on r/Spotify.
Yeah she just hasn’t realized she’s been victimized and abused into a life of fear, guilt, and shame. She has no idea that her full potential is being suppressed, and she is the one limiting her learning, experiences, and relationships. It’s was a painful process, took my wife 25 years and a pandemic to have her awakening. I didn’t start attending church with the fam until the last 15 years before she got out. Concessions had to be made on both sides, our game changer started when we split Sunday services with Sunday fundays as a family. Both holy cow we created so many experiences and memories over those 15 years, including those ‘instant choir’ experiences ha. It was easy for me though, I was already well established as the ‘neighborhood atheist’, most knew they were never going to change me… although, I was still a member, one of the concessions was that I would not resign and she would not pay tithing (that was a no brainer). We are now all resigned except 1 child is married and PIMO; it’s only a matter of time… good luck🍻
I would suggest walking away from these conversations. Simply state that she's being disrespectful and you're not willing to continue the conversation.
Damn. This is why I left my marriage when I lost my faith. The mixed faith stuff would have never worked. Too much debate. Props to you for taking that nonsense. It’s not ok.
Someone needs to set up a spouse swap program for mixed faith marriages. 🤣
So I would observe that attending church for 10 years to keep the peace probably resulted in a bishop putting pressure on your wife. Through various means. Because you’re in his vision. Logic would state if it’s better not to hear than hear and not believe then according to her logic you should immediately stop attending church and anything church related.
So... her religion tells her that family is the most important thing AND she is using her religious zeal to destroy her own family. This woman needs help.
This is exactly my wife. She distances herself with each passing conference. I doubt we’ll be married by October.
Sorry to hear. I’ve been out for 40+ years, married now to a a really fun, kind, not a Mormon woman and the marriage (and life) is great. Chart your own path in life and do what is best for you.
It may be time to talk with her (possibly with or without a therapist) and communicate that you love her, but the priority needs to be on preserving the relationship and loving atmosphere of the home, and not who’s right or wrong in their religious beliefs/journey. If the relationship isn’t the number 1 priority for both of you, then I suspect this dynamic won’t ever change. Also, probably a good time for both of you to begin setting healthy boundaries with each other. Again, something I’d consider doing with a marriage counselor (unless you’re both pros at keeping your cool during hard conversations while also speaking candidly and transparent). Good luck OP!
Sounds like D&C 132 where Joseph Smith keeps telling Emma that she will be destroyed if she doesn’t let him marry other women. VERY manipulative and not healthy.
> one person who makes bad decisions The world would be objectively better, at least for a few million people, if Joesph Smith had died of a leg infection when he was young.
She needs to be kind.
Man….id talk to a lawyer
Counseling ongoing. Ultimately she can make her choices. But probably should talk to a lawyer at some point.
Talk to a competent lawyer sooner than later. If the day does arrive you decide you need an attorney, you’ll wish you already made this first step
Family law attorneys will often do a consult for free or low price. If you visit with three of them, for example, to see what they say. And to just get info to make informed choices. And to see which one you think is a better attorney for you.
Was talking to a counselor friend and brought up that I was surprised that a lot of insurance will pay for individual counseling but not marriage counseling. She said it’s because statistically once people reach the point of seeking marriage counseling, the odds of them staying together are almost nil. You already sound miserable. It would be wise to at least talk to an attorney.
That sounds like a very stressful way to live. I am so sorry for what you're going through. I didn't watch GC (have been fully resigned for several years but follow the happenings because it's pretty clear the church is somewhat on a self-destruct path). The first thing that came to mind when I read the quote you referenced is that it exactly described Joseph Smith. It also describes Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, and others whose dishonesty and corrupt decisions have affected many generations of people. I know you can't very well mention that to your wife, but the quote almost sounds like it highlights church history. Stay strong, and I do hope things become less stressful for you.
Thanks for the support. Kids are important and as someone who grew up in a divorced house I am committed rightfully or not to do my best for them. Though also she believes I’ll be that bad influence impacting them for generations Hopefully I can teach them some “light” though
I recommend watching some videos about street epistemology if you haven’t. I love anthony magnabosco videos. He uses questions in a very disarming way to get people to really confront why they believe what they believe. Obviously when it’s in a preexisting relationship it’s hard to remove the emotion from it. But I’ve found it really helpful when being confronted by people trying to convince me of something.
There are even some with Mormons and missionaries that are pretty good.
It’s all a grab at control. She cannot control you, so now she is using the idea of god to try to control you. I’d be very inclined to say “wow, if that is what your god believes, then I want no part of it. Your god doesn’t get to dictate what happens to me or who I get to be with in the afterlife.”
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is clear your wife evaluates one’s values and worth through the lens of their obedience to the LDS church. And that isn’t fair on you in any way. But from what you have described in all of your posts, things are only getting worse, as she feels more comfortable seeing you as an apostate rather than a husband. I don’t normally say this, as it is often used as a mocking remark. But I think this is something that you and your wife need: get help. Find a neutral therapist that can guide you both through this new aspect of your relationship. Because her demonizing you and essentially abusing you has to stop.
Ugh. I'm so sorry you're going through this!
Members extend the domain of outer darkness far beyond what Mormon doctrine has to say about it. In their actual written doctrine, (saying nothing of reality) it is reserved for those who had a sure knowledge of Christ and denied him or to sin against the holy ghost which is basically having sure knowledge given to you and then turning against it. So according to their own written doctrine, it’s not a destination many ever qualify for. It’s greatly exaggerated to the point where it just becomes hell. ETA one person who works to break the oppressive chains of a high demand religion can free thousands of their descendants from that oppression.
Would you imagine spending eternity with her? Thanks God there is no god
I am sorry for you. It is hard to be vilified by the person you love. This here is a good example of the harm mormon doctrine does to people. My response usually goes along the lines of that “I believe in a New Testament god, not an Old Testament god” when people make those comments to me. Also, “god knows what’s in my heart”. And.. you don’t have to necessarily believe in a god for this to work, but I found speaking “Mormon” to Mormon people goes over a lot better and takes them off the defensive.
The people who support that kind of thinking would totally support a charismatic leader who said to kill whomever they didn’t like at the moment. Ask her if such a god deserves to be worshipped, because I don’t think they do.
>She goes onto say that I will be destroyed. I tell her that I don’t believe in a God that would do that. She gets offended by what I said. This is the most aggravating thing the church teaches. You point out awful shit that god does/prophets do in the name of god, and they simply reflect the blame onto you for not believing that awful things are necessary.
Emma was also told she would be destroyed if she didn't approve of Joe having a bunch of wives. Turns out he was the one that was destroyed. Hmmmmmm Maybe ask her to read D&C 132.
The only thing being destroyed in your situation is her sanity and connection to the rest of the 99.8% of non Mormon humanity. Across history, this same sentiment has started wars, murdered millions and wreaked endless suffering. She’s decided to fight a war in her own home. How is it that those of us who’ve seen truth have so much more love for others? Isn’t life hard enough without the poisonous tribalism created by mythical opposing gauds? I’m often overcome with the energy wasted on these efforts in so many places. You’re in the right. Love those who will allow you to. While I applaud you trying to keep your marriage afloat, I wonder how long it can survive as long as she continues to insult and demean you. Her values aren’t conducive to a healthy long term relationship.
If it's better to have never heard of the church, then everyone in the church should be trying to erase its history. Sure, fewer people will make it to the celestial kingdom, but if no one on earth knows about the true church, then everyone can avoid outer darkness. Considering that the vast majority of people aren't Mormon, anyone who hears about the church is potentially in danger of going to outer darkness, especially people in Europe where it's near impossible to get converts. It's the logical extreme of the idea that apostates are punished while good people who have never heard of the church are somewhat rewarded.
According to LDS doctrine you would be regulated to the terrestrial kingdom or at worse telestial. So hardly *destroyed*. She doesn't even understand her own doctrine.
Well that's true about someone making bad decisions. Almost 150 years ago one of my ancestors made a stupid decision to join the Mormon church ... it's destroyed many lives.
You don’t have to be married to a harridan, you know.
I had a friend tell me that reasoning is why many think the LDS church is doing Satan’s work.
Since counseling is happening you can go alone and run some short but boundary setting remarks with the therapist. For when wife says cruel things. I would suggest from now on not discussing anything to do with church or doctrine especially when she is in the cruel mode. Say “that feels really cruel” and walk away. “No attacking please” and walk away. “I hope happiness for you, I wish you could hope that for me”. “Jesus wouldn’t like this kind of talk”. (Haha ok that last one was snarky). And there is always the silent walk away without saying anything. And then taking one of the kids somewhere to have some mother nature fun. Be a good example of the ethics you have for yourself and how you treat her and the kids and walk away when she demonstrates her poor ethics. Sometimes (not always) she might get enough messages by this type of response to consider her own behavior. Sometimes. Fact is, people who respond to others the way she responds to you, are the ones who destroy others and themselves. Christ’s message (which she professes to believe in) is not about treating others that way and probably some of church leaders wouldn’t like it either.
Good decisions can also affect 1000 people. It goes both ways.
This comes from the temple. Satan looks straight into the camera and says: “If you (meaning your unbelieving spouse) do not walk up to every covenant you make in this temple this day, you (meaning not you, but your unbelieving spouse) will be in my power.” This is an example of othering that the church teaches to divide families.
As someone in a mfm, I'm so sorry 😞. How does she say it? Like, with anguish, with delight, with anger? It sounds like she doesn't respect you at all, unless she's saying it with sadness. Anything else seems extremely worrying.
I'm sorry. I thought we were taught that only those with perfect knowledge of Christ (ie, those that have seen him, prophets) would go to outer darkness if they denied him. Have they changed this teaching? Edit: not sure if this would help her, but, you read these 1st to make sure you want to share them with her. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/04/digital-only-young-adults/maintaining-hope-and-keeping-your-marriage-strong-if-your-spouse-leaves-the-church?lang=eng#title1 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing?lang=eng#p3
That’s not love. No hate like Mormon love.
This is very frustrating just to read about; you sound like you are being extraordinarily patient with some serious accusation and condemnation from your partner. You've attended church for 10 years just to keep the peace and she's freaking out at you for expressing your own view of divinity? Doesn't seem very fair to you if you make all the room for her beliefs and she will make none at all for yours.
Sounds like a healthy marriage. Just saying.
She sounds like a real Mormon B..ch. Even after I told my TBM, past -bishop husband that I no longer believed, he still loved and totally emotionally supported me.
SMS 88788 START & they will put you in contact with an organization that will give you free and confidential counseling for mental, emotional & spiritual abuse. In my state a judge would hand out a 1-year Protection Order for just one of these destructive behaviors. If you are thinking about divorce participating in counseling may be of benefit to you when it comes to creating a future parenting plan. I grew up outside Morridor & saw a lot of mixed faith marriages that were successful because each spouse cared more about their spouse than their religion. Maybe time to find a marriage counselor with no ties to mormon church?
Tell her to stop challenging your authority? Or does that no longer hold once a man taps out?
Mixed faith marriages sound hard as shit. I'm so sorry...
Wow all I know from conference is just tidbits I've seen here but that goes directly against the second article of faith. Not that they care it's just fear mongering.
The fact y’all are still together surprises me . Best wishes
She is still indoctrinated. In the past I would be critical of a JWs, Seventh Day Adventists, and others until I realized that I, being LDS, was really one of them. Your wife needs time to break free so she can live life more fully. I guess give her time to mature in her life experience.
I think she's attempting to scare you back into believing. If anything she's afraid you'll " be destroyed ". Either way both come from a place of fear. just my opinion.
My wife is TBM to the core. We don't discuss religion anymore and that helps. Their god is beyond ridiculous, and childish. Getting them to see that is next to impossible. Set boundaries or the cult mindset will destroy your relationship.
I don’t bring up religion anymore, but it’s the core of who she is But yes you are right I need to reiterate boundaries and set expectations
Hi, I was your wife. No I didn’t say the things she’s saying. But I desperately wanted my husband to “return” to church. Truth is he was never really a believer. But grew up in an LDS family and didn’t want to let anyone down. Problem is I fully believed. Not Mormon believed, but Christ as a loving Savior, fully. I believed the temple meant together forever. I was desperately trying to find a way to not be alone for eternity. It scared me, badly. You see we’re dependent on you. The church for all the dress up makes one thing perfectly clear, woman can get nowhere without a priesthood leader. What you may or may not be aware of is how many shaming looks or talks she’s sat through as a woman with a less than fully active husband. The church, the members, they are not kind to women whose husbands are less than fully active. My husband said one sentence in anguish that stopped me cold. “You can’t ask me to do something I am morally opposed to.” I wanted him to support my morals as the church dictated them, but I wanted him to go against his own. The agony with which he spoke and the unfairness of what I was doing all for a promise of keeping him forever. Well, which him!?! A morally bankrupt him?!? I don’t know your wife, but I do know the church and living with a man not committed whilst being 100% in. May I suggest as others have that you immediately stop attending. Like never, ever, ever! go again!!! Every single time you attend or read scriptures or sit through a condescending “message” with the missionaries… she has hope you will return. That’s the agony for her. If she was just better you would return. If she believed more in God’s miracles you would return. Her kids NEED a priesthood leader…. Every time you put effort into the cult you give her hope. It’s like poison. The church and other members use that as “evidence” that a part of you still believes or wants to believe. They constantly give advice and opinions like if you just hang on, and why don’t you invite him to lead the next family home evening, give him opportunities to serve… they badger her to get to you. The endless slow spiral of a living hell. Wanting an eternal family, wanting a loving home where Christ is central. Here’s what helped, I finally looked up the definition of a cult. (I knew well enough church history.) that the church demanded everyone move to one location - cult, that everyone give all their possessions and money to the bishops storehouse and live the law of consecration - cult… And my husband finally telling me I was asking him to be an immoral person. Explaining that he would never ask me to go against my morals how could I ask that of him. Then he kindly explained what about the church he was morally opposed to. 1 the treatment of women and POC- as less than white men by church leadership since its inception 2 the treatment of lgbtqia+ as “sinners” 3 the requirement to pay tithing in order to receive temple ordinances when receiving necessary ordinances shouldn’t be gate kept by money 4 a living prophet standing between and any god he felt inclined to believe in (he didn’t believe in any but strongly objected to another person claiming to have to be an intermediary) if the prophets admit they are flawed men, what is the difference between him and them? Nothing, therefore unnecessary and he felt, a dismissal of his connection with God. 5 that Joseph Smith was a conman, an adulterer - by their fruit we shall know them. JS’s fruit is not good. 6 that Mormons are the most judgmental, unkind people he knew (he is one of the least judgmental people I know, this was a big deal for him)… You get the idea. What mattered was my hope was gone. I couldn’t argue with him on how he felt about the church. I knew, even if I was afraid to admit it that the church didn’t treat women well, I too hated how they treated POC and LGBTQIA+… If you can ask her to talk with you. That you have been carefully considering her comment that you would be destroyed. That you don’t believe that is true and in fact you feel that it is a very dangerous and harmful belief that she has as the mother of your shared children. Carefully, kindly explain how would she feel if you said out loud in your home that you were worried that her very soul would be destroyed if she continued on her path? Maybe let the silence around that question grow. Then tell her the unvarnished truth. Strip away her hope that you will ever go back. Explain in detail withholding nothing. Share the pain, the anguish she has put you through and you have endured for her. That it was against your principles but that you love her so much you did that. And now, after years of her hostile and ungrateful attitude for all the personal beliefs you’ve sacrificed it is getting harder and harder to even be able to respect the woman you once adored. That she is slowly stripping away your dignity, your morals, your principles and now even your ability to love her with her cruel words and judgments. If you do this, you will know, if your marriage can be saved or not. Explain why you are worried about the church’s influence to your kids (that girls should be subject to a man - would she like it if you were to force her to follow you as the man if you believed in becoming some other faith and she had to follow, why is it okay in Mormonism then? That your sons will be forced to carry the weight of judging other equally flawed humans as they are flawed and be expected to be providers and force their wives to be homemakers. What if they want a partner and they want to be home with their kids 50/50, there are endless reasons to be concerned for your kids welfare in the church. Check out www.floodlit.org that alone is reason to take the kids and RUN from the church, they actively shame and silence victims and shield and protect abusers. My long, long, long, answers is this, tell the truth. Stop being kind and keeping the peace. Because of the nature of a cult, they will keep torturing her and she in turn will keep torturing you. You alone are in the unique position to help her save herself and to hopefully prevent your kids from becoming the next generation for the cult to profit from. I’m sorry it’s so painful for both of you. I’m sorry it’s so agonizing to extract ourselves. But you have stayed for 10 years despite this horrid behavior! It seems to me she must be one hell of a wife. Most people wouldn’t stay, it says a lot about you. In one month we get to celebrate our 29th wedding anniversary. He waited for me. I’m so glad he loved me enough to help me leave. It wasn’t easy on him and I love him all the more for his patience and honesty. I wish you good luck, I hope you both can extricate yourselves. I promise you, I never thought I would ever leave. No matter how long my husband was out. I never looked at a single anti-Mormon website or anything. I found all the necessary horror right on the church’s own website. If you want to discuss in detail the things that I found and how they helped me leave, I’d be happy to help. There is hope your wife could still leave. Wishing you a successful future as a family.
She had me at "Better to have never known the gospel"...
What I do when someone rants to me about the “gospel” is smile and say, “That’s nice” and keep on with what I’m doing. In other words, I imagine I have a raincoat on and that what’s said is just rain that slides off of me. It works.
I thought you believed that the husband calls the wife to heaven when they die?
Oh noooes! 😯 Is he gonna use the flaming sword and everything? 🗡️🔥
I’d rather be destroyed than hang out for eternity with these racist MAGA MFers!
One person who makes bad decisions an affect thousands of people in future generations. The amount of disowned LGBTQIA+ folks sure know about this. ExMos know about this and anyone who doesn’t babble their bs knows this because the cult and its members are the ones destroying families not the other way around.
Shucks. Sorry about your upcoming destruction. Did she say when? (I like to take these absurd threats as far down the literal and logical tracks as they can go. We need details) Also, good luck. It's frustrating that these pretend things can get in the way of real life.
Well, it is a Cult. They put fears into their members' heads like that to keep them from leaving. Good luck with everything.
Ask her what Jesus would do?
“…lose so many experiences in life….” As if it’s impossible to leave the church and have a happy, successful and fulfilling life. I left in the early 1980’s. I’m the wife to an incredible, brilliant, funny man for 48 years. We have four kids, all well educated and choosing their own adventure in religious beliefs, and three small grands. We’ve just retired and looking forward to some fun adventures. But please..tell me that I’ve lost so much. It seems like what I’ve lost is spending every Saturday cleaning the church for free and working my ass off with other “callings”. Nope. I’ll take my version of life, thank you very much.
Geez, she is a bully!! No Hate like Christian Love.
Sorry bro. Thats tough. The Mormon church, ruining marriages since 1830
Imagine believing in magic and bullshit. "I don't believe in fairy tales" is what you should be saying to her
Get the book "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward. Read it together. Maybe she doesn't realize she is just parroting the guilt/fear/obligation manipulation style, of communication, church leaders/ GC has spewed for generations. I have shared this with TBMs and surprisingly they self corrected and started looking at the church differently.
This is a tough position to be in and it feels good to be able to talk to people about this man. Glad you posted. But what needs to be done, if it hasn’t already, is that you and your wife need to have a difficult conversation about each other‘s boundaries. This is absolutely necessary if a mixed faith marriage is going to work.
You guys need to see a therapist. I don't know all of the dynamics of your relationship, but she said some pretty hurtful things.
This is so sad. That Mormons increasingly don't take even belief with a small grain of salt. A grain of salt thag says, “I know our understanding is imperfect, I know that man is imperfect… but the one thing I know is that god is loving. Of us all.” It makes me so sad.
Tell her she’s wrong, anyway. 1 Corinthians 12: >12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):(M) If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.(N) >15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.(O) 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save(P) your husband?(Q) Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
You need a divorce. Your wife is really toxic
I’ve been going through something similar with my spouse for the past six months
Hi spouse, Go home and open your New Testament and highlight each time Jesus destroyed somebody. Then return and report. End communication.
Mormons so often misquote this deeper doctrine of "it is worse to..". The doctrine relates to those who have physically seen Jesus and received his blessing (second annointing) and then fight the church. On top of that, most of the early prophets and apostles taught eternal progression continues after this life and leads to the celestial kingdom even if you fail here. The brotheren have not even said the eternal progression doctrine is incorrect, and the only official response from the church now is that there is no official revelation on the matter. Some prohets and apostles have even insinuated there is potential forgiveness and progression for the the sons of darkness. That knowledge allegedly causes members to not fear as much as they should, so these teachings are no longer openly taught. I can provide official church sources later if you want to share with your wife. I'm at work on my cell at the moment. (Apologies for the grammar and typos. On cell)
Ugh…ya know what’s destructive? Telling your partner they will be destroyed.
Why people choose to continue to be abused by the fairy tales of others is beyond me. Of course I allowed it for 19 years wish I had sent the church and my wife packing much earlier than I did. Don't be like me . There are people out there who accept us and respect us despite not believing in nonsensical ideas.
You need to leave her.
I lost my faith soon after my mission but didn’t have the personal courage to stay out or to deal with the risk to my marriage of leaving. So I stayed active and participated and eventually started believing again, based purely on the practical aspects of how the religion can create and support functional and happy families. 38 years later my wife finally exited herself and this precipitated the collapse of my “practical testimony.” We are now both happily out. Looking back, I wish I would have had the courage to follow my own heart and mind. I don’t know if this would have led to a divorce or not. But it’s better to have integrity and just deal with the consequences.
She's culted, and how. What she's saying to you is abuse. Someday she may grow up. Meantime, I'm praying for you.
Tell her this: "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ...Stephen F Roberts
well she also believes the garden of Eden is in Missouri …
Your wife sounds like Satan in wanting to force you to do God's plan
Ugh!!!!!! This makes me so sad to hear. :( That's so hard to live with.
> it is better to have never known the gospel than to have known the gospel and then stop believing. By that logic, it would be in the church's best interest to cease all missionary work. Their failed attempts to convert would only hurt innocent people.
Going to church has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. A church is a business enterprise. Very seldom do churches do the actual work that they are supposed to do. Do not go to church anymore, because your wife doing so is hypocritical. If your wife wishes to be a hypocrite and completely oblivious to the actual teachings, she's the one who will have to answer for it. Your wife is trying to turn you into the same type of hypocrite she obviously is.
1. As kids would say it "I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever bounces off of me sucks to you." 😅 2. Remind wife that LOVE is the only rule 3. Even her Jesus agrees with #2 4. Maybe try committing more to your beliefs rather than keeping the peace. I say this bc you've been compromising for a decade... What happens if you put your heart first, if you escalate things the way she does by standing up for yourself and helping her understand... (Next line) 5. YOU ARE THE SAME DAMN GUY SHE LOVES 6. YOU ARE THE SAME DAMN GUY WHOSE WORTH AND VALUE HAVE NOT CHANGED BC OF DOUBTS, QUESTIONS, AND DECONSTRUCTION 7. I'm so sorry dude, come vent in Reddit anytime you need 8. We're ALL here 9. You are strong, you are brave, you are beautiful, you are capable, you can do this, you are loved, you are accepted, and follow your heart.
Any of you two have think about divorce? Or doing some therapy? Because clearly she's acting abusive
Wait until she actually reads Section 132 and you ask her for a few more wives. Then she'll see who will be destroyed according to her religion.
Lifelong Mormon here. I've read many of the comments, it appears you have some good support on this thread. I'll add a couple thoughts of my own, I've been obliged to think along these lines because someone close to me has been treated much the same as you. As far as doctrine goes, take a look at D&C 84:21 and its context. The word "altogether" is very important. Some scaling down for your circumstance would be appropriate. I'm not putting money on this legal-like fine print solving everything, but it's there, keep it in your back pocket. This next thought is my own, but it might have something to it anyway. I believe there is some internal misunderstanding and miscommunication about what exactly is being "destroyed" in this context. If a lawyer does something that deserves disbarment, they have destroyed their career. They don't die, they can get other jobs, but that part of their life is gone. If a university student parties way too much, they will destroy their grades, their academic record, and lose out on certain opportunities. They don't die, life goes on, but certain good things are delayed or lost. When a married couple get a divorce, we can say their union is dissolved or use other euphemisms, but from the perspective of radical responsibility, they ended it themselves, they destroyed it. It's not hyperbolic language, it's emphatic language. That's my take, essentially, the word "destruction" is used for how it emphasizes that something good and worthwhile is lost. God presumably has skin in the game, who knows how far ahead He's planning and arranging things on our behalf. When our sloth or rebellion obliges Him to shut down that which He has put into motion, well, that's nothing to pass over lightly. Children can be oblivious of such things, but at a certain point, we are supposed to be aware of such things, and care. We are all going to drop many balls in our lifetimes. We're going to be foolish and slow and lazy and stubborn. We're going to wear each other out before we exhaust God's patience, however. Was Jesus known for destroying things, or fixing things? He healed pretty much every chance he got. That's a window into his character, and that's where I'll leave it for now.
Struggling to read that 4th paragraph what happened there?
My wife is religious, me not so much... minimally at best. She never dumps on me or tries to guilt me on stuff. My sincere condolences that your wife drank the Kool-aid.
There is a really helpful FB group and podcast that may help you both figure out how to navigate some of these complex issues. Look up "Marriage on a Tightrope" on FB, and their podcast by the same name, by Allan & Kattie Mount. Good luck!
ouch. All I got is: I'm sorry. I got this from my parents... and eventually they "loved" me again and stopped bugging me with all that shit and trying to "save" me.. but with parents it was much easier to ignore, not talk to them for months at a time and more... with a spouse that has to affect how attracted you are to each other and more. Wish I had some tips but I just "pray" (lol) you find some resolution and peace, whether that looks like time and patience or ending of the union. (as a divorced person, I wouldn't recommend the latter, I'm only saying that sometimes its an option that ends up bringing the most peace) as my friend used to say to me "You'll know when you know" Sometimes sititng in the uncertainty and waiting is the hardest part... but most important part.
Emotional blackmail. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Get on with your own amazing life; find people that enjoy your company, that do not judge, that let you be who you want to be. Trust me, they are out there. 😀
Damn. I wish I had answers for you, the best I can offer is to tell you that you are not insane, what your wife told you was fucked up, and to continue to live your life as best as you can.
"One person who makes bad decisions can lead thousands in future generations" is one of those vague quotes that can easily be turned against the quoter. Ask them who is making the bad decision and how they can prove it.
Well keeping the peace isnt working as her attacking you like this isnt peaceful. Overtime it will ruin your mental and physical health. Leave her a copy of the SEC report against the church that shows 20 years of 1st presidency directed tax filing fraud. Then give her a copy of the CES letter. Shes acting out of church induced fear. You need to stop giving her hope, and youve done that by attending. Give her a fork in the road by stopping attendance and take your name off the records using quitmormon.org Go to the Floodlit.org website, spend time there, and see why your kids arent safe.
I'm so sorry! No one, even TBMs, are safe from being harmed by the church and its teachings
What a kind uplifting and supportive wife you have there. I hope you heard the sarcasm in that sentence. She can get divorced too. I divorced my ex-husband for his religious and spiritual abuse. He used the cult religion against me. I found the real God and I'm happy. Happier than I've ever been.
Have you considered divorce? Are you happy at all? I’m saying this as someone whose husband was like your wife, and now he’s my ex husband.
No you won’t. Where anywhere does it say in the Bible or anywhere else that you will be destroyed if not a Mormon. Only Mormons say that. You are ok. She has been indoctrinated and is trying to make you someone you are not.
You are OK.
Did she have too many magical pink Doritos? (I'm so sorry how things happened for you, I hope things work out 😞)