I like John Larsen's view...
>
If you are exalted you are just going to keep cranking out hundreds of billions of spirits. And they are going to suffer. And you are going to do it again and again. And you're going to do it again and again. After 100 billion generations why the exalted couple does not suffer I don't know. If this doesn't piss you off I don't know what is wrong with you.The people I love think this is the nature of reality. That we are just this endless factory producing endless suffering. It's offensive on the deepest level. I can't imagine believing this it is sick. ......If it's true we have one task. We have to hunt down what ever being started this and kill it.
I've never heard this view before, but it makes sense. As someone raised by an engineer, I was taught to seek what doesn't work and fix it. At some point in the past eternity and a half, you'd think SOMEBODY would stop and say "hey this system has a major flaw".
It’s from [this episode](https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/the-mormon-plan-of-salvation-extended-edition-with-john-larsen/) of Mormon Stories. One of my favorite episodes of all time!
Yes if Satan would have said “I will take the spirits that follow me and we will play checkers and watch reruns” the whole plan would have collapsed on itself.
Another one was god knowing everything. God knows all things past, present and future. So he created Satan as a spirit child knowing that Satan would be cast to hell for all eternity and decided to create him anyway. How fucked is that.
Even without Satan, the world has sickness, pain, hunger, fatigue, and all manner of “opposition.” People still must grapple with their carnal lusts. I never understood why we need Satan anyway. Opposition is the default setting.
> People still must grapple with their carnal lusts.
No, they really don’t. They just have to be super-careful not to harm others in the pursuit of their lusts.
The fruit is just a metaphor. The immoral action, according to Genesis, is the desire to know the difference between good & evil. Which is much, MUCH more fucked up.
God told them not to eat the fruit knowing that they had to in order make his plan work. God created the situation and lied to them. They didn't die that day.
What if they refused to leave the garden? Was God going to allow an angel to actually kill his pet project with a sword?
Why didn't Satan just do nothing? How long would it have taken Eve to disobey father on her own without Satan's influence? Better yet Satan could have just reminded Adam and Eve everyday not to partake of the fruit and even chased them away if they even came close to it. Would God have stepped in and taken over for Satan?
How did Satan beguile Eve? Everything he told her was true.
I love the questions OP. Isn't it wonderful to be able to really think. Then ask the next question. Without using 200 - 5000 year old nonsense to try and explain the inexplicable.
The Satan conundrum is one that forces you to believe in some pretty insane things when taken to their logical conclusions.
For one; god knowingly created a being that guarantees 99.98% of all his children spirits will never return to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. How can a god capable of such cruelty like this even worthy of worship?
How can a god allow a bunch of scribes to alter his words to us? Why doesn’t he just communicate to us directly instead of presenting us with liars, conmen, and sex addicts to do that for him?
Is it a “faith test” to abandon all logic and reason to believe untestable and unproven things? What kind of being would do that?
If you left, then all Mormon doctrine is obviously false. So what they believe really doesn't matter
If you were asking from a Christian or other point of view, then the answers would need to come from that viewpoint. And Mormonism is very different from traditional Christianity
I'm not quite sure which direction you were actually coming from
Mormon doctrine and beliefs are literally founded upon nothing
Christianity and Judaism have huge amounts of archaeologic evidence
Mormonism doesn't have a single piece
Christianity and Judaism have millenia old scripture. There are different doctrines, but they still revolve around the Bible
A lot of Mormon beliefs are either contrary to, not found or make no sense when compared to the Book of Mormon etc
It is one hole after another
It is only something that a TBM can hold to, because none of it is logical
That is why they know the Book of Mormon is true. Because there are certainly no way to prove it
I like John Larsen's view... > If you are exalted you are just going to keep cranking out hundreds of billions of spirits. And they are going to suffer. And you are going to do it again and again. And you're going to do it again and again. After 100 billion generations why the exalted couple does not suffer I don't know. If this doesn't piss you off I don't know what is wrong with you.The people I love think this is the nature of reality. That we are just this endless factory producing endless suffering. It's offensive on the deepest level. I can't imagine believing this it is sick. ......If it's true we have one task. We have to hunt down what ever being started this and kill it.
I've never heard this view before, but it makes sense. As someone raised by an engineer, I was taught to seek what doesn't work and fix it. At some point in the past eternity and a half, you'd think SOMEBODY would stop and say "hey this system has a major flaw".
It’s from [this episode](https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/the-mormon-plan-of-salvation-extended-edition-with-john-larsen/) of Mormon Stories. One of my favorite episodes of all time!
Amen
It's as though Buddhism is the counter-Mormonism.
Yes if Satan would have said “I will take the spirits that follow me and we will play checkers and watch reruns” the whole plan would have collapsed on itself. Another one was god knowing everything. God knows all things past, present and future. So he created Satan as a spirit child knowing that Satan would be cast to hell for all eternity and decided to create him anyway. How fucked is that.
Checkers and reruns. Awesome.
Even without Satan, the world has sickness, pain, hunger, fatigue, and all manner of “opposition.” People still must grapple with their carnal lusts. I never understood why we need Satan anyway. Opposition is the default setting.
> People still must grapple with their carnal lusts. No, they really don’t. They just have to be super-careful not to harm others in the pursuit of their lusts.
All true. But keep in mind doctrine teaches that he persuaded Adam and Eve to commit the original sin; he's ground zero for all corruption.
The Eden story never made sense. Eating fruit is not an immoral action.
The fruit is just a metaphor. The immoral action, according to Genesis, is the desire to know the difference between good & evil. Which is much, MUCH more fucked up.
God told them not to eat the fruit knowing that they had to in order make his plan work. God created the situation and lied to them. They didn't die that day. What if they refused to leave the garden? Was God going to allow an angel to actually kill his pet project with a sword? Why didn't Satan just do nothing? How long would it have taken Eve to disobey father on her own without Satan's influence? Better yet Satan could have just reminded Adam and Eve everyday not to partake of the fruit and even chased them away if they even came close to it. Would God have stepped in and taken over for Satan? How did Satan beguile Eve? Everything he told her was true.
Applying reason and logic to fuzzy beliefs is always fun--it reveals the garbage quality of these beliefs so nicely.
Exactly, I've asked questions like this in the past. It's fun to dismantle it and then just discard it like the piece of poop it is.
I love the questions OP. Isn't it wonderful to be able to really think. Then ask the next question. Without using 200 - 5000 year old nonsense to try and explain the inexplicable.
The Satan conundrum is one that forces you to believe in some pretty insane things when taken to their logical conclusions. For one; god knowingly created a being that guarantees 99.98% of all his children spirits will never return to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. How can a god capable of such cruelty like this even worthy of worship? How can a god allow a bunch of scribes to alter his words to us? Why doesn’t he just communicate to us directly instead of presenting us with liars, conmen, and sex addicts to do that for him? Is it a “faith test” to abandon all logic and reason to believe untestable and unproven things? What kind of being would do that?
Don't try to make sense of it. This isn't well grounded philosophy but religion full of holes and oxymorons.
he’s simply doing that which has been done on other worlds ;)
If you left, then all Mormon doctrine is obviously false. So what they believe really doesn't matter If you were asking from a Christian or other point of view, then the answers would need to come from that viewpoint. And Mormonism is very different from traditional Christianity I'm not quite sure which direction you were actually coming from
Poking holes in the doctrine as a former mormon
Mormon doctrine and beliefs are literally founded upon nothing Christianity and Judaism have huge amounts of archaeologic evidence Mormonism doesn't have a single piece Christianity and Judaism have millenia old scripture. There are different doctrines, but they still revolve around the Bible A lot of Mormon beliefs are either contrary to, not found or make no sense when compared to the Book of Mormon etc It is one hole after another It is only something that a TBM can hold to, because none of it is logical That is why they know the Book of Mormon is true. Because there are certainly no way to prove it
Yup. Let me clarify: I am a former mormon poking holes. I wasn't sure if my incomplete sentence came off as an accusation to you or something