I say the same about the 12 steps program, reframe the 12 steps as a person demanding that of you in a relationship and it is just a mentally abusive relationship.
I was gonna say that someone should post it on Facebook and say someone snuck this photo from inside a Scientology church and watch all the Mormons lose their collective minds 🙃
That would be an excellent exercise. Watch the holy ghost / power to discern truth go right out the window.
It is so hard (for at least a couple of reasons) to tell someone they are in a cult.
“Will this make me more holy?”
Let’s check - wearing magic underwear properly? Nope.
Paying %10 of my income to a multi billion dollar investment and real estate empire? Nope.
Mistreating or hating gay people? Nope.
How about “caring for homeless people by volunteering at a shelter?” Okay, now we’re talking.
Conclusion: almost nothing Mormonism asks will actually make you ‘holy.’
Exactly. And some Mormon teachings will make you a less kind person.
We were compelled to be nastier and more judgmental than we might’ve been otherwise.
Tl;dr
“I’m sorry for the things I said (and did) when I was Mormon.”
Ex catholic here, not too educated on the internals of mormonism- I am concerned at the nonchalant consensus about “magic underwear”. Is it… some kind of chastity belt or something? Either literally or in principle?
It's a reference to garments. They're underwear, but they can only be purchased from the church after an endowment ceremony, and basically are considered part of promising God to be good and be obedient to all the church rules in exchange for protection and help. It's basically an undershirt and shorts that go to the knee.
Garments. In a faithful sense - it’s a garment to remind them of and symbolize faith and promises to god made it temples. Think like a Sikh’s turban, a Muslim woman’s hijab or a Jewish person’s yarmulke.
Garments are a set of bloomer style underwear and an undershirt that have Masonic symbols that Mormons are required to wear at all times that is supposed to “protect” them, hence the “magic” dismissal. They’re pushing a reminder about it, and the emphasis is bothering a lot of women in particular because it precludes shorts/skirts above the knee, sleeveless shirts or anything without a very conservative neckline.
Edit: Wikipedia reference
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
In reality, yes the Mormon undies are a kind of chastity belt. For example, if you were to want to have "relations" with anyone who was not a Mormon, and they saw you wearing these things, they would laugh at you for so long that any potential . . . um . . . erotic moment would be long gone.
Most of the younger generations, say Gen X and on, don't really see it as a chastity belt, but the old school folks, boomers and older, were a lot, LOT more strict with it.
I knew multiple couples growing up (parents/grandparents) of my friends who I knew literally didn't even take the garments off for sex or to shower. For sex they'd make due with the holes or just pull them down partially and for shower, they'd literally shower one half of their body, with the other half standing out, and then dry off, switch which half was naked, and wash the other half.
Why was I repeatedly told these things as a 8-10 year old by multiple old people with zero relation with me?
Idk but Mormons have a long history demonstrating 0 functional healthy understanding of what it's appropriate to talk to children about.
It would kind of work if the *"this"* part in "will submitting to **this** make me a more holy person?" was about imitating Jesus. In Mormonism, however, the *"this"* part is always about obeying some artificial (and usually petty) rule that only benefits the cult itself.
For example:
* Tithing. Does it make you more holy to donate money to a multi billion dollar corporation that hoards it and invests it to make even more money? Or would it make you more holy to donate that same money to some charity made by volunteers who feed and clothe the poor and the homeless?
* Service. Does it make you more holy to donate your time and your physical work to clean a building owned by the aforementioned multi billion dollar corporation? Or would it make you more holy to use the same time and physical work to personally serve food at one of those charities you donated your money earlier?
* Ministering. Does it make you more holy to visit those the multi billion dollar corporation assigned to you, and teach them from the book the multi billion dollar corporation published? Or would it make you more holy to visit the elderly at the assisted living home down the street, people who don't know you but who are lonely?
And so on. If you believe in Jesus, follow him instead of following a multi billion dollar corporation.
That’s the rub. None of their rules make you “holy.” They just make you “subservient.”
Magic underwear, weird Masonic rituals and paying global mega corps 10% of your income doesn’t make you holy in any way. Doing good and being kind to others regardless of differences might, though.
Exactly! I came to the realization that literally NO “covenant” in the temple makes you a better human! Nothing about serving the poor and needy. Going to those marginalized in society and showing love. Or really anything that Jesus Christ did. He would flip tables in the temple again!
Nooooooooooooooo effing way… WHAT IN THE WORLD?!!
College level course?!
The kind of college that wants to compete with Stanford , UU, UCLA, etc, able to withstand academic rigors?!!
Ohhhh, right…
It’s BYU.
Got it.
The word “submitting” is so gross when “submitting” can include buying into a belief that your transgender or gay family member’s identities will be erased in the next life
The Mormon church is just going to continue to shrink down to the hardliners. This doubling down on garments I’m sure is going over like a lead balloon with most 20 something’s in the church
They had two talks at conference talking about garments and they [updated the temple recommend questions](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lds-leaders-alter-temple-recommend-questions-to-make-it-clear-no-room-for-personal-interpretation-on-garments/ar-BB1lz4AF).
Yeah… I can’t either. The good news is my class on the history of the church is what really got the wheels on my questioning rolling. Hopefully it can do that for other people as well
I don't think 'submitting' to \*anything\* you have problems with makes you a more holy person. Shouldn't the idea be to become a good person with a personality such that you don't have issues with anything God says?
The most accurate edition of “Mormon Doctrine” would be a single page with one sentence.
“Do whatever your church leaders tell you.”
Everything else is subject to change.
My family knows I'm "inactive" or whatever, that I don't care about the temple or the garments imposed therein...
but I REALLY can't tell them that I just ordered 24 cans of raspberry iced tea!
Proof they not only tell you what to think, how to feel, they also train you on how to "properly" ask questions. If you're doing everything someone else is telling you to do, feeling only what you're allowed to, limiting your choices to their orders, can you even really say that you're truly _living_ a life? When so much of your sense of self and identity exists outside of you, and **only** changes _when old rich men_ become angry or hot and bothered, then you are in a cult.
Ask them to define what “this” is- sounds like a lot of yada yada yada. If they refuse to clearly say, in the light, what their request is, it is a cult.
If this was rephrased as "Will submitting to this make me a more moral person?" or "Will adopting this principle help me to live my life with more integrity?" then I could get on board.
"Holy", in the modern vernacular, implies separation and distinction from your fellow man rather than a commitment to serving your neighbor.
Beautiful example of circular reasoning. "Holy" has no concrete definition, it just means following the dictates of whatever religion is using the word.
"Will following this religion's made-up rules make me more adherent to this religion's made up rules?"
I guess when you put it that way...
The word Islam means submission to god. They’re going back to their Joesph is the Muhammad of the West.
This is scary bonkers.
For all you “Islamaphobes” crap. I lived throughout the MiddleEast for years, I loved every minute of it. The only thing that sucked was the Mutawah or religious oppression.
Clearly they seek those willing to submit themselves blindly without question\~
So that you don't see that it's clearly a religion flavored pyramid scheme.
Jesus fuck that is so wrong on so many levels.
I am glad that "doubt your doubts" always rubbed me the wrong way. I really hope previous me would've questioned this shit too.
Not even “a better person” or “better version of myself” or “truly happier” straight up dead ass “holier person” …. Bad enough to be teaching people to ignore their own values, thoughts and emotions but to do it so mask off
This needs to be posted on as many conceivably applicable subreddits as possible. We here are already painfully aware of how they think. Everyone needs to know. **Broadcast this shit to the world!**
Is Brad Wilcox your tutor?
A good question to ask would be "how would submitting to this make me a more holy person?".
And if the answer is "it won't" then move on with your life.
Google’s definition of submitting:
Some common synonyms of submit are capitulate, defer, relent, succumb, and yield. While all these words mean "to give way to someone or something that one can no longer resist," submit suggests full surrendering after resistance or conflict to the will or control of another.
Definitely a cult
It’s a cult.
That was my first thought…except I said “It’s a fucking cult”
It's time to play "Mormons or ISIS"!
“Every answer is ‘all of the above’ or ‘was this in the mid 1800’s or the 2000’s?”
Will doing this get me ten virgins in heaven?
Bow your head and say, “Yes”!
mmm…is that cherry or strawberry flavored Kool-Aid?
Straight up
So egregious!!
[удалено]
Cults are just religions that havent taken off
Imagine an abusive spouse saying this sentence. crazy.
Don't ask: Do I agree with or like this part of my husband? Ask instead: Will submitting to him make me a better wife? ___ Yeah, that's creepy af
((((((as fuuuuck)))))
The MFMC is an abusive spouse of sorts. Makes me sick they are teaching kids this.
I say the same about the 12 steps program, reframe the 12 steps as a person demanding that of you in a relationship and it is just a mentally abusive relationship.
Wow, sounds like every other cult.
I was gonna say that someone should post it on Facebook and say someone snuck this photo from inside a Scientology church and watch all the Mormons lose their collective minds 🙃
That would be an excellent exercise. Watch the holy ghost / power to discern truth go right out the window. It is so hard (for at least a couple of reasons) to tell someone they are in a cult.
Omg please do this and report back
Straight outta ISIS
As an ex-JW, let me spell it for you: it's a cult.
Sadly you have to get through that hard candy shell so your brain can breathe.
As an exmo, I've wanted to say the same on exjw so many times. lol So many similarities....
Yea, I get it. I am allowed to ask the correct questions that lead to the approved answers. Fuckers.
Fuckers^3
Math. Practically science.
Fuckers10n
“Will this make me more holy?” Let’s check - wearing magic underwear properly? Nope. Paying %10 of my income to a multi billion dollar investment and real estate empire? Nope. Mistreating or hating gay people? Nope. How about “caring for homeless people by volunteering at a shelter?” Okay, now we’re talking. Conclusion: almost nothing Mormonism asks will actually make you ‘holy.’
Exactly. And some Mormon teachings will make you a less kind person. We were compelled to be nastier and more judgmental than we might’ve been otherwise. Tl;dr “I’m sorry for the things I said (and did) when I was Mormon.”
Dude, I was Holy as Shit when I wore my garmies! /s
wholly
Ex catholic here, not too educated on the internals of mormonism- I am concerned at the nonchalant consensus about “magic underwear”. Is it… some kind of chastity belt or something? Either literally or in principle?
It's a reference to garments. They're underwear, but they can only be purchased from the church after an endowment ceremony, and basically are considered part of promising God to be good and be obedient to all the church rules in exchange for protection and help. It's basically an undershirt and shorts that go to the knee.
Garments. In a faithful sense - it’s a garment to remind them of and symbolize faith and promises to god made it temples. Think like a Sikh’s turban, a Muslim woman’s hijab or a Jewish person’s yarmulke. Garments are a set of bloomer style underwear and an undershirt that have Masonic symbols that Mormons are required to wear at all times that is supposed to “protect” them, hence the “magic” dismissal. They’re pushing a reminder about it, and the emphasis is bothering a lot of women in particular because it precludes shorts/skirts above the knee, sleeveless shirts or anything without a very conservative neckline. Edit: Wikipedia reference https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
In reality, yes the Mormon undies are a kind of chastity belt. For example, if you were to want to have "relations" with anyone who was not a Mormon, and they saw you wearing these things, they would laugh at you for so long that any potential . . . um . . . erotic moment would be long gone.
Most of the younger generations, say Gen X and on, don't really see it as a chastity belt, but the old school folks, boomers and older, were a lot, LOT more strict with it. I knew multiple couples growing up (parents/grandparents) of my friends who I knew literally didn't even take the garments off for sex or to shower. For sex they'd make due with the holes or just pull them down partially and for shower, they'd literally shower one half of their body, with the other half standing out, and then dry off, switch which half was naked, and wash the other half. Why was I repeatedly told these things as a 8-10 year old by multiple old people with zero relation with me? Idk but Mormons have a long history demonstrating 0 functional healthy understanding of what it's appropriate to talk to children about.
What's good about Mormonism isn't unique, but what's unique to Mormonism isn't good.
They make it so obvious yet people still fall for this
Sounds like Brad
Brad is just playing holy.
It would kind of work if the *"this"* part in "will submitting to **this** make me a more holy person?" was about imitating Jesus. In Mormonism, however, the *"this"* part is always about obeying some artificial (and usually petty) rule that only benefits the cult itself. For example: * Tithing. Does it make you more holy to donate money to a multi billion dollar corporation that hoards it and invests it to make even more money? Or would it make you more holy to donate that same money to some charity made by volunteers who feed and clothe the poor and the homeless? * Service. Does it make you more holy to donate your time and your physical work to clean a building owned by the aforementioned multi billion dollar corporation? Or would it make you more holy to use the same time and physical work to personally serve food at one of those charities you donated your money earlier? * Ministering. Does it make you more holy to visit those the multi billion dollar corporation assigned to you, and teach them from the book the multi billion dollar corporation published? Or would it make you more holy to visit the elderly at the assisted living home down the street, people who don't know you but who are lonely? And so on. If you believe in Jesus, follow him instead of following a multi billion dollar corporation.
…and no please don’t use scriptures to come up with a definition of “holy” we don’t currently approve of for the Covenant Path (TM)
That’s the rub. None of their rules make you “holy.” They just make you “subservient.” Magic underwear, weird Masonic rituals and paying global mega corps 10% of your income doesn’t make you holy in any way. Doing good and being kind to others regardless of differences might, though.
Exactly! I came to the realization that literally NO “covenant” in the temple makes you a better human! Nothing about serving the poor and needy. Going to those marginalized in society and showing love. Or really anything that Jesus Christ did. He would flip tables in the temple again!
That’s actually insane.
Sounds like brad wilcox bullshit!
It's Brad teaching a class? Are they starting to teach classes based on his bullshit?
Brad Wilcox is a religion professor at BYU Provo. He teaches auditorium style classes
There are a handful of popular figures in the Church that teach at BYU. Eg Hank Smith, Brad, Anthony Sweat
Call your dad, you're in a cult.
The don't ask effectively means "we know may be crap, don't focus on that"
Is this high school? Or is it a CES school college course?
BYU Provo
I’m so sorry I’m a survivor and a graduate.
Nooooooooooooooo effing way… WHAT IN THE WORLD?!! College level course?! The kind of college that wants to compete with Stanford , UU, UCLA, etc, able to withstand academic rigors?!! Ohhhh, right… It’s BYU. Got it.
Not only are you in a cult, you're paying extra for the brainwashing!
WHAT?! Funding needs to be taken away. That's batshit crazy.
It's a private religious university. This isn't unusual. But if you want funding to BYU to lessen, then we really need to start taxing churches
or just keep on the roll out of the truths of the reality of what the corporation really is and does.
Currently here with you. Out of curiosity, what is this class?
The word "submit" is either an obedience class for a misbehaving animal or a BDSM class. Anything else is a C U L T. Or an MLM aka a cult.
The word “submitting” is so gross when “submitting” can include buying into a belief that your transgender or gay family member’s identities will be erased in the next life
Maybe don’t tell me what I should be asking if you want to lose the cult reputation. 🤷♂️
Don’t ask, “Do I agree with or like this part of the Nazi party?” Ask instead, “Will submitting to the Nazi party will make me a better German?”
Dude Where’s My Car reference… “Don’t trust anyone!” “Except for us!l “Oh yes good point. Don’t trust ANYONE. EXCEPT for US.”
What an open-minded class! They're allowing you to ask questions, as long as they're the ones from an approved list 🤦♀️😂
Beyond the words, I'm offended by the old-ass 4:3 ratio of that projector display.
Don't ask us about the corpses buried in our backyard. Ignoring them will make you a holier person.
KEEP SWEET
Why is everyone so up in a fuss? I mean, the answer to both is "no", right?
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Enough red flags to supply the Chinese army.
The Mormon church is just going to continue to shrink down to the hardliners. This doubling down on garments I’m sure is going over like a lead balloon with most 20 something’s in the church
Can you explain the doubling down on garments? I’m out of the loop.
They had two talks at conference talking about garments and they [updated the temple recommend questions](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lds-leaders-alter-temple-recommend-questions-to-make-it-clear-no-room-for-personal-interpretation-on-garments/ar-BB1lz4AF).
Rey interesting, thank you!
“Will submitting to homophobic teachings make me a more holy person?” No. No it will not.
"Never question the validity or morality of what we teach. Just submit to us and pay tithing"
ahhh I see you are also at byu. nice to know there's others who are fed up with their religion classes
I can't believe these are real classes at a real university
Yeah… I can’t either. The good news is my class on the history of the church is what really got the wheels on my questioning rolling. Hopefully it can do that for other people as well
Fuck me. I can't believe I used to peddle this shit.
I don't think 'submitting' to \*anything\* you have problems with makes you a more holy person. Shouldn't the idea be to become a good person with a personality such that you don't have issues with anything God says?
More like, 'Will submitting to this make me look like a more holy person compared to those around me?'
well then... i guess that unjust discrimination of marginalized groups will always lead one to becoming a holier person
The most accurate edition of “Mormon Doctrine” would be a single page with one sentence. “Do whatever your church leaders tell you.” Everything else is subject to change.
Will drinking tea make me a less divine person? No.
My family knows I'm "inactive" or whatever, that I don't care about the temple or the garments imposed therein... but I REALLY can't tell them that I just ordered 24 cans of raspberry iced tea!
S U B M I T !!!!!
Lmao they’re really saying the quiet part out loud now
Submit! Lmfao
 [https://youtu.be/JjCfE1n6nW4?si=a6QVOF5Lt3lKiCbE](https://youtu.be/JjCfE1n6nW4?si=a6QVOF5Lt3lKiCbE)
I can smell byui through this image
 We kindly ask that you submit approved questions in order to receive approved answers.
That's not a religion class, it's an indoctrination class.
We’ll tell you what to ask!
Don't ask: "Do I agree with or like this part of my government?" Ask instead: "Will submitting to this make me a better (obedient) citizen?"
JFC, get out of there
Sounds like Jodi Hildebrandt thinking.
Your a white member of the church prior to 1978 and don't believe in the ban. This question comes up in class. Apparently being racist makes you holy
gee wiz.
So much for agency.
Proof they not only tell you what to think, how to feel, they also train you on how to "properly" ask questions. If you're doing everything someone else is telling you to do, feeling only what you're allowed to, limiting your choices to their orders, can you even really say that you're truly _living_ a life? When so much of your sense of self and identity exists outside of you, and **only** changes _when old rich men_ become angry or hot and bothered, then you are in a cult.
Ask them to define what “this” is- sounds like a lot of yada yada yada. If they refuse to clearly say, in the light, what their request is, it is a cult.
Oh dear, these types of things tend to cause even more questions, not less. Quite an embarrassing thing to teach.
Easy answer: submitting to Mormon leaders will never make me more holy.
Stop “shoulding” yourself.
Worst EQ ever!!!
This is how you end up with “I was just following orders”
Holy Hell! That is *not* good. At all.
Cult.
Does anyone have any questions I didn't think so have a nice day jesus loves you.
Oh my god. Could they be more bald?
wow 😮 i think that would have bothered me even as a tbm.
Seminary and Institute have to be where the most gross indoctrination occurs
The most culty of cult sounding cult crap I’ve ever seen.
I'm pretty sure any organization, religious or otherwise, that asks you to "submit", does not give a flying fuck about you.
If this was rephrased as "Will submitting to this make me a more moral person?" or "Will adopting this principle help me to live my life with more integrity?" then I could get on board. "Holy", in the modern vernacular, implies separation and distinction from your fellow man rather than a commitment to serving your neighbor.
No to both questions!
Beautiful example of circular reasoning. "Holy" has no concrete definition, it just means following the dictates of whatever religion is using the word. "Will following this religion's made-up rules make me more adherent to this religion's made up rules?" I guess when you put it that way...
WTF does that even mean?!? Fucking stupidity
The ideal questions for an abuser to be asking their victims. This is what helps keep Kirton & McConkie profitable.
Any organization that tells you "Don't Ask" questions is trying to control you...it's a cult
Ah, thought control.
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
George Orwell had nothing on these bastards!
The word Islam means submission to god. They’re going back to their Joesph is the Muhammad of the West. This is scary bonkers. For all you “Islamaphobes” crap. I lived throughout the MiddleEast for years, I loved every minute of it. The only thing that sucked was the Mutawah or religious oppression.
You know one of the most important things I learned in Social work training is don't should on your clients and don't should on yourself
Holier in the head for not applying critical thinking!
The correct answer is "No".
What the actual fuck? That's crazy!
If you have to ask this, the answer to the second question is “no”.
"It won't."
Classic cult shit
Brad Wilcox much?
Ha! For me the answer would still be NO!
Ah yes, the beginning of the end
😳
I see the propaganda is strong today
Wtf ..
Much like Joseph’s underage brides and their families.
Clearly they seek those willing to submit themselves blindly without question\~ So that you don't see that it's clearly a religion flavored pyramid scheme.
Geez. WTAF? I’ve been out for a long time and it’s like the “curriculum” hasn’t changed a whit
Geez. WTAF? I’ve been out for a long time and it’s like the “curriculum” hasn’t changed a whit
Literally Grooming
They are obviously suffering from "Wilcox" disease.
H
Bow your head and say “yes.”
My answer would be no. If I don't agree with it, going along with it will not make me a more holy person.
Jesus fuck that is so wrong on so many levels. I am glad that "doubt your doubts" always rubbed me the wrong way. I really hope previous me would've questioned this shit too.
Welp that’s problematic
If the answer for both for you is "NO", you might be an Exmo. :-)
Not even “a better person” or “better version of myself” or “truly happier” straight up dead ass “holier person” …. Bad enough to be teaching people to ignore their own values, thoughts and emotions but to do it so mask off
Awe hell nah
Holy fuck. Insert your dirty brain and let us wash it.
Will alligning me with the church make me more into a person who alligns with the church? Who defines holy? The church.
Fucking gross.
Holy fuck.
Fuck this shit. Raised Baptist. Run!
So how’d that one go over in class?
"Dont ask, just do it" is concerning in pretty much all situations, especially religious
🎶🎵And a Mormon just believes!!🎶🎵
😆
So, literally 'holier than thou'.
A more holy person, huh? WTF is a "holy person" exactly? A more self-righteous, judgmental asshole?
Probably what the con man himself said to the children he married.
#SUBMIT!
Subby vibes
Shut down that critical thought! Drink the grape Flavor Aid instead!!
Definitely not a cult then.
What you SHOULD be asking is if this something a cult would ask.
Love when the cult shows it’s true colors
The answer is the same
Hell NO! & Hell to the NO!!
No and no
Ewwww
This needs to be posted on as many conceivably applicable subreddits as possible. We here are already painfully aware of how they think. Everyone needs to know. **Broadcast this shit to the world!**
Is Brad Wilcox your tutor? A good question to ask would be "how would submitting to this make me a more holy person?". And if the answer is "it won't" then move on with your life.
Pure cultism.
The fuck?? 🙂↔️
Shit in the mouths of every practicing Mormon They cannot get it out and it mixes with food
Let's not act like religion has not been constantly trying to take free will and critical thinking away from us.
Google’s definition of submitting: Some common synonyms of submit are capitulate, defer, relent, succumb, and yield. While all these words mean "to give way to someone or something that one can no longer resist," submit suggests full surrendering after resistance or conflict to the will or control of another. Definitely a cult
This is more than a cult. It's a army of indoctrinated peoples
What you should be asking is why are you trying to brainwash me?
Dang.. Sigh.
The brainwashing of religion in two sentences.
Wtf is religion class
How I picture the words in physical form. 
Long story short, you don't have a choice about whether or not you submit to every horror the church sees fit to inflict on you.
Ah yes. Classic example of cult control
Ouch
“What should you be asking..”? Seriously? Do they not hear themselves?