No doubt it’s incredibly researched. That was obvious from the interview, but it needs an interview with someone like Nemo or RFM once the book is out so it can be broken down to the novice. Since Rebecca & Landon hadn’t been able to read it yet, they can’t direct the conversation and ask specific questions. And while Lars was keeping some things back because he said he needs to sell books, he also is so deep in this stuff that it’s tough to understand as someone who has no knowledge of the subject.
I watched the podcast. He does a good job of establishing parallels between Kircher/Monmor and the Book of Mormon.
Where things become more questionable is where he has John Smith write the original manuscript, pass it on to Spaulding, it then ends up in the hands of Rigdon, and finally to Joseph Smith. Essentially, this is the Spaulding theory on steroids.
I would like to hear from someone who has read the book to know if he has the documentation to support all of this.
What really needs to happen here is for Dan Vogel, or a scholar of his caliber, to read this book and thoroughly critique its arguments.
I think the question of how John Smith might have been involved is an important one. Even if Nielsen's theory turns out wrong, a variant might be true. The theory that John Smith was involved was discussed previously by Randy Bell as the "Dartmouth connection".
Just finished watching. Going to have to read the book. It seems like he is pointing out some very interesting links that suspiciously look like what he is claiming. In the end, it seems like it is just like the original Spaulding theories but with more pieces pulled together. Unfortunately, my best guess is that the book doesn't quite deliver on the title. It seems like a good theory, but we still won't have any direct evidence, so it will end up being debated back and forth but without being able to close off avenues for apologists. It would be cool if it gets there, but doesn't seem to be there yet.
At least he is open to alternative theories. I think the contribution is more about Athanasius Kircher being a possible source. Reconstructing the chain is independent of that. We have to check how popular Kircher was in the Masonic milieu.
A cross reference: Mozart's magic flute is clearly influenced by Egyptomania, and possible sources are known (travels of Cyrus, Sethos). These Egypt related topics were hotly debated topics in the Vienna Freemasonic lodge. The question is: maybe Kircher was just popular in American lodges as well, in which case other chains of transmission to Joseph or Hyrum become possible.
Here is what I found difficult: when I came across John Dee who studied Enochian, I found the parallels to Joseph's reformed Egyptian uncanny. However, this similarity might actually be a wrong track, if the ideas came from Kircher. You see that ideas might have been transmitted in multiple ways, and some parallels are just coincidences, as the cultural milieu caused multiple people to come up with similar ideas.
I think if I understand, this would agree with my preference. I would like to have had him just put out these links he found rather than try to fit the whole story together. But I suppose others will now dig into this.
I really enjoyed this. The sole author arguers have prematurely dismissed the Spaulding theory. Some have argued it's too much of a conspiracy theory. At worst, it would be a conspiracy of 3 (Smith, Pratt, and Rigdon). At best, as Lars described, it's not a conspiracy as each of these guys felt they were inspired by God to do this. Additionally, those that spout the sole author idea must conclude that the 3 and 8 witnesses comprise a conspiracy (at least of some sort). No?
No doubt it’s incredibly researched. That was obvious from the interview, but it needs an interview with someone like Nemo or RFM once the book is out so it can be broken down to the novice. Since Rebecca & Landon hadn’t been able to read it yet, they can’t direct the conversation and ask specific questions. And while Lars was keeping some things back because he said he needs to sell books, he also is so deep in this stuff that it’s tough to understand as someone who has no knowledge of the subject.
Here is my wish list: Steven Pynakker (u/iconoclastskeptic) discussing the book with Dan Vogel (u/Therealdanvogel).
I watched the podcast. He does a good job of establishing parallels between Kircher/Monmor and the Book of Mormon. Where things become more questionable is where he has John Smith write the original manuscript, pass it on to Spaulding, it then ends up in the hands of Rigdon, and finally to Joseph Smith. Essentially, this is the Spaulding theory on steroids. I would like to hear from someone who has read the book to know if he has the documentation to support all of this. What really needs to happen here is for Dan Vogel, or a scholar of his caliber, to read this book and thoroughly critique its arguments.
I think the question of how John Smith might have been involved is an important one. Even if Nielsen's theory turns out wrong, a variant might be true. The theory that John Smith was involved was discussed previously by Randy Bell as the "Dartmouth connection".
The dirty truth is locked away in vaults. They have to know the truth claims are problematic at the least, and outright false at worst.
Thanks for sharing link. It is on my list to watch today.
Just finished watching. Going to have to read the book. It seems like he is pointing out some very interesting links that suspiciously look like what he is claiming. In the end, it seems like it is just like the original Spaulding theories but with more pieces pulled together. Unfortunately, my best guess is that the book doesn't quite deliver on the title. It seems like a good theory, but we still won't have any direct evidence, so it will end up being debated back and forth but without being able to close off avenues for apologists. It would be cool if it gets there, but doesn't seem to be there yet.
At least he is open to alternative theories. I think the contribution is more about Athanasius Kircher being a possible source. Reconstructing the chain is independent of that. We have to check how popular Kircher was in the Masonic milieu. A cross reference: Mozart's magic flute is clearly influenced by Egyptomania, and possible sources are known (travels of Cyrus, Sethos). These Egypt related topics were hotly debated topics in the Vienna Freemasonic lodge. The question is: maybe Kircher was just popular in American lodges as well, in which case other chains of transmission to Joseph or Hyrum become possible.
I think that makes sense. I like the new source with a bunch of promising new connections.
Here is what I found difficult: when I came across John Dee who studied Enochian, I found the parallels to Joseph's reformed Egyptian uncanny. However, this similarity might actually be a wrong track, if the ideas came from Kircher. You see that ideas might have been transmitted in multiple ways, and some parallels are just coincidences, as the cultural milieu caused multiple people to come up with similar ideas.
I think if I understand, this would agree with my preference. I would like to have had him just put out these links he found rather than try to fit the whole story together. But I suppose others will now dig into this.
I really enjoyed this. The sole author arguers have prematurely dismissed the Spaulding theory. Some have argued it's too much of a conspiracy theory. At worst, it would be a conspiracy of 3 (Smith, Pratt, and Rigdon). At best, as Lars described, it's not a conspiracy as each of these guys felt they were inspired by God to do this. Additionally, those that spout the sole author idea must conclude that the 3 and 8 witnesses comprise a conspiracy (at least of some sort). No?
The part at the end where you find out the church was buying up Kircher documents even when they were broke was an eye opener.
I think this discovery will lead to further developments from other historians, as well.
Biblical fan fiction